Guild Wars 2

40% of all available points are time gated, meaning that new players and those that skipped dailies for the rewards offered at the time will never be able to compete against those that did.

Since non-daily achievements are a finite pool, those at the top will be competing solely based upon how many dailies they did before leaderboards were ever announced.

Speaking with those in the top 25 currently, this is already the case. Most have nondaily scores in the 3900-4100 range, the only difference coming from daily and monthly points.

What should be done?

Allow completion of previous monthly/daily catagories for a heavily reduced exp, money and item reward.

That way new players, through hard work, can compete with those that bought the game earlier. And no players are made to feel they have to log in every single day in order to compete in the LBs.

People who have been playing longer will have more achievements, and rightly so. Should someone who just started spvp have rank 40 just because people who have been playing longer have rank 40?
It was the same way in gw1. Those who had been playing longer had much higher titles.

Or perhaps you should stop caring so much over something that literally serves no purpose. Being higher rank on those leaderboards does not make you superior to the rest of player base nor does it increase your drop rate of rare items and fireworks will not go off after you’ve managed to climb up in rank.

Quick Mouse.7635:

People who have been playing longer will have more achievements, and rightly so. Should someone who just started spvp have rank 40 just because people who have been playing longer have rank 40?

I don’t agree with you here, and think you’re analogy is completely off. In sPvP, can’t anyone starting out aspire to level 40 and achieve it? For leaderboards to have any purpose they should really be something that anyone, no matter when they start play, should be able to aspire to. Certainly, the people that have played the longest will always have an advantage – simply because of having spent the most time in the game. However, it’s different when people who are just starting out literally can’t get enough achievements to get near the top of the board. Especially since people who are competitive about these types of things had no idea when they were deciding whether or not to do these dailies and monthlies that they would be counted for LBs.

To use your example of PVP it would be a bit more like Anet announcing without warning one day that they had just made rank 79 the highest attainable PvP rank but anyone who was 80 already got to stay 80.

I tend to think that daily and monthly achievements shouldn’t be counted on the LBs at all – past or future. Both for the reason above and the fact it encourages unhealthy playstyles for gamers – if you want to be top of the LB you can never take a day off from the game for any reason or you lose out on achievement points that you can never, ever get back.

I agree. Anet decided cap infinite achievements. They should cap dailies and monthly at for example 5k points. Everyone could reach maximum points limit and after that points should not count to overall score.

The people that came before you aren’t all going to keep playing.

If you want to get a leg up and “catch up”, you can do the spvp daily every day too. Less likely people will do that one too. If you want even more, do more than 5 of the daily categories for the PVE daily for a few more achievement points.

…or try to just not care, because it’s a leaderboard that doesn’t matter.

You weren’t going to top it anyway.

What about the points you got from the Karka event? What about Wintersday and Halloween? I mean, we all know that the Karka event won’t be happening ever again, and we won’t have the same Wintersday events again (at least if we go off what the lore for Wintersday is like). Should the work that players put into those events be discarded because new players never got to earn the points for those too? If so, then what was the point in adding those activities to the Achievement panel?

So much enTITLEment in this thread

Minion of Vey.4398:

The people that came before you aren’t all going to keep playing.

If you want to get a leg up and “catch up”, you can do the spvp daily every day too. Less likely people will do that one too. If you want even more, do more than 5 of the daily categories for the PVE daily for a few more achievement points.

…or try to just not care, because it’s a leaderboard that doesn’t matter.

You weren’t going to top it anyway.

I don’t think waiting for people to quit the game should be the sole activity that allows people to move up the achievement ladder.

I’m unsure why you do.

Quick Mouse.7635:

People who have been playing longer will have more achievements, and rightly so. Should someone who just started spvp have rank 40 just because people who have been playing longer have rank 40?

Should people who have just started who play far more, are better, and more focused never be able to reach rank 40?

Because that’s how the system currently works. People who start today will never be able to catch up to those who simply do their daily. There are not enough other achievements to ever make up the difference.

This isn’t about handing out rankings to new players, it’s about allowing everyone via equal effort to be awarded appropriately.

I think achievement points are a good indicator, in general, of how long a person has been playing GW2. It’s appropriate how it is currently.

Flamenco.3894:

I think achievement points are a good indicator, in general, of how long a person has been playing GW2. It’s appropriate how it is currently.

They would be an indicator of this regardless of if dailies existed or not. There is no value reducing the entire system to something that could be substituted by a Date Created field.

Risingashes.8694:

Flamenco.3894:

I think achievement points are a good indicator, in general, of how long a person has been playing GW2. It’s appropriate how it is currently.

They would be an indicator of this regardless of if dailies existed or not. There is no value reducing the entire system to something that could be substituted by a Date Created field.

No, creation date is not the same as amount of time played.

Risingashes.8694:

40% of all available points are time gated, meaning that new players and those that skipped dailies for the rewards offered at the time will never be able to compete against those that did.

And what’s so wrong about giving veterans a reward for.. you know supporting the game since launch?

If I can do older dailies, then they are no longer dailies ……..

In any case, really new players are probably concentrating on other more important things like learning the game, lvl-ing up, gearing up, finding a guild etc… I doubt their priority is making the leaderboard.
Older players are worried about getting new content, getting the bugs fixed, sorting out the dungeons, the overflows, the queues and so on – again I doubt their priority is whether they have missed achievement points from dailies from before they started playing.
Who really cares about this? It’s bragging rights and at the end of the day, those with the persistence of playing since launch and still playing 1 year from now are entitled to more bragging rights than the rest of us.

I’m sorry, what’s the issue here? No, seriously . . . I’ve been reading this and I’m really trying to understand what the crushing problem is. I’ve worked for my points, and spent a lot of time going to do the jumping puzzles, the boss achievements, the explorer bits . . .

. . . and someone is going to start yelling at me that because I played for longer I’m not as good as I think I am? My friend, I play a ranger main. I know I’m not as good as I think I am.

Quick Mouse.7635:

People who have been playing longer will have more achievements, and rightly so. Should someone who just started spvp have rank 40 just because people who have been playing longer have rank 40?

Feel free to beat Garry Kasparov and become a world famous chess player overnight. It doesn’t take years of grinding arbitrary points to catch up with him, beating him outright is enough for fame and fortune.
Anyone with a proper team can join the Tour De France, and the Ronde van Vlaanderen even has a league for amateurs with absolutely no time gating. Every person is allowed to join the 11-stedentocht as long as he is physically capable, and that’s one of the most prestigious races in the world.
To qualify for the Ironman in Hawaii, you merely have to run any other Ironman distance triathlon in less than 9h15m.

In the real world such arbitrary time requirements do not exist.

Having played for longer does not mean you’re better. Being better is enough.

It was the same way in gw1. Those who had been playing longer had much higher titles.

And yet, GWAMM had a definitive cap that was achievable by all. It wasn’t even that difficult to get. It didn’t increase day by day.

marnick.4305:

And yet, GWAMM had a definitive cap that was achievable by all. It wasn’t even that difficult to get. It didn’t increase day by day.

Show of hands, who expects a topic now about how that title is available in Guild Wars 2 as a bonus from Guild Wars 1 is unfair to people who didn’t bother or didn’t play the first game?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m sorry, what’s the issue here? No, seriously . . . I’ve been reading this and I’m really trying to understand what the crushing problem is. I’ve worked for my points, and spent a lot of time going to do the jumping puzzles, the boss achievements, the explorer bits . . .

. . . and someone is going to start yelling at me that because I played for longer I’m not as good as I think I am? My friend, I play a ranger main. I know I’m not as good as I think I am.

You might need a bit of reading comprehension then because it seems you’ve totally missed the point.

I’m talking specifically about dailies. Fixed achievements are great, there should be more of them, but no one wants to take away peoples achievements.

I just want all people to have the same access to achievements. You complete something successfully you get an achievement- that’s fair. Even if it’s yearly, you turn up next year and you catch right back up.

But playing the game on the 14th of November 2012 shouldn’t be an achievement. That isn’t fair. That isn’t what the system should be based around. Reward completion, not attendance.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

marnick.4305:

And yet, GWAMM had a definitive cap that was achievable by all. It wasn’t even that difficult to get. It didn’t increase day by day.

Show of hands, who expects a topic now about how that title is available in Guild Wars 2 as a bonus from Guild Wars 1 is unfair to people who didn’t bother or didn’t play the first game?

You can play GW1 right now and get the achievement. In fact there was a Reddit thread just a day ago where people were specifically doing just that.

Currently HoM, the thing you’re pointing to as something even more ridiculous than dailies is in fact possible. If you didn’t play yesterday you’ll forever be 13 points behind someone who did.

That’s 500,000 dolyaks, 60 HoM points (there were only 50 HoM points btw), 100,000 spvp kills.

Please just no….this discussion is pointless. Having finite achievement points will only result in everyone tied for “first”. Tell me this however, what do the leaderboards mean to you that you consider this such a desperate issue?

Risingashes.8694:

You might need a bit of reading comprehension then because it seems you’ve totally missed the point.

It seems I did, but it wasn’t much of a point to miss really.

I’m talking specifically about dailies. Fixed achievements are great, there should be more of them, but no one wants to take away peoples achievements.

Agreed, I really wish the Daily track did have either a cap or no tracking at all. It doesn’t really need any.

But playing the game on the 14th of November 2012 shouldn’t be an achievement. That isn’t fair. That isn’t what the system should be based around. Reward completion, not attendance.

. . . you know what, I’m slightly in agreement with you, but we’re going to disagree a lot because of one minor difference.

I just don’t care what the achievement score is. I don’t care about where I fall on the leaderboard. And I think it’s a pointless yardstick to measure yourself by, even before the leaderboard was started.

Risingashes.8694:

You can play GW1 right now and get the achievement. In fact there was a Reddit thread just a day ago where people were specifically doing just that.

Yup, I noticed it. You know what else? I still don’t care about that particular title. I just don’t have enough time on my hands to sit down and crank through: Wisdom, Luck, Treasure Hunter, Unlucky, Faction Allegiance, Survivor, Legendary Defender of Ascalon . . .

No, thank you. I had three years to get a lot of those and I gave up after one. It just was way too much grind and repetition for me. Not when I could do more interesting things.

Currently HoM, the thing you’re pointing to as something even more ridiculous than dailies is in fact possible. If you didn’t play yesterday you’ll forever be 13 points behind someone who did.

That’s 500,000 dolyaks, 60 HoM points (there were only 50 HoM points btw), 100,000 spvp kills.

No. I’m not pointing to it as ridiculous. I just know that people WILL because it’s a favorite regular target about how unfair it is for people who need to start some forum drama. Or try starting it.

Repeating . . . I honestly do not care about my achievement score. I didn’t even check myself on the leaderboard until someone told me I was in the top 90%. I snatch up achievements I think I can do, but I’ll leave the ones which are excessively grind-y or otherwise requiring obscene work (“Emperor’s New Wardrobe”) to people who care about them.

I care about finishing three categories: Explorer, Hero, Jumping Puzzles. I’m 90% of the way through Jumping Puzzles and Explorer.

Serephen.3420:

Please just no….this discussion is pointless. Having finite achievement points will only result in everyone tied for “first”. Tell me this however, what do the leaderboards mean to you that you consider this such a desperate issue?

I like leaderboards. I like achievements.

Currently the system is BS, and telling me that my preferences are meaningless is incredibly childish. Nothing on these boards are important, we’re playing a game.

The leaderboards certainly wouldn’t be tied. Those who have the harder to get achievements would be ahead. And if there is a tie, then the solution isn’t dailies. It’s to add more broad and harder to get achievements.

Serephen.3420:

desperate

Desperate? Why are words like this used in a large number of these replies? As if I’m ranting hysterically that the size of the penny should be 10% smaller. Why is my issue apparently meaningless, whereas I’m sure that things in the game that you care about are of vital importance?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I just don’t care what the achievement score is.

Don’t worry, you’re not a special snowflake. I’ve heard this constantly.

So here’s a question: why do I need your support? Why are you posting here? Why do you have an opinion?

This is a topic about a system you specifically don’t care about- yet here you are. Providing meaningless noise.

I’m certainly not telling you not to be here, I’m no Communist. But why are you here? Because I care about this particular subsystem, and I think it’s broken. I’ve stated my reasons, and by your own admission I’m correct.

My only sin seems to be enjoying something that you don’t, and suggesting something that would affect nothing that you do enjoy.

So since you agree with me, and you don’t care about the subsystem- why not support me. Why not say ‘yes’? Then when something you care about comes along and you make a reasonable argument, I’ll be there to support you.

Explain your attitude to me.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . you know what, I’m slightly in agreement with you, but we’re going to disagree a lot because of one minor difference.

I just don’t care what the achievement score is. I don’t care about where I fall on the leaderboard. And I think it’s a pointless yardstick to measure yourself by, even before the leaderboard was started.

Some people do care. It’s fun to go for a top place. It requires extreme dedication, like killing a million yaks or going for a particular pvp rank. Not that I’d do that, but I’d like to think about the possibility.
I like to daydream about how to get into the top rank, making notes on the back of a business card and all that, even though I’ll never feature on #1. I’ve got a life and that gets in the way too often. But dreaming is fun. The current leaderboards don’t allow for dreaming. There’s not tactic, no skill, no competition.

In it’s current implementation, they might as well not exist. Breaking into the top ranks is not possible by any means, not even for extremely dedicated people who’d like to go for it. If you missed the boat, you’re out of luck.

That’s not what leaderboards should be about. But I’m just someone with a rational mind and a competitive mindset, I want the best to triumph, not the one with the most time. Maybe, having a clue about the real world isn’t relevant in videogames. But hey, we can try to make this game better right, even though I’ll personally never feature on a top rank.

Risingashes.8694:

Serephen.3420:

Please just no….this discussion is pointless. Having finite achievement points will only result in everyone tied for “first”. Tell me this however, what do the leaderboards mean to you that you consider this such a desperate issue?

I like leaderboards. I like achievements.

Currently the system is BS, and telling me that my preferences are meaningless is incredibly childish. Nothing on these boards are important, we’re playing a game.

The leaderboards certainly wouldn’t be tied. Those who have the harder to get achievements would be ahead. And if there is a tie, then the solution isn’t dailies. It’s to add more broad and harder to get achievements.

Serephen.3420:

desperate

Desperate? Why are words like this used in a large number of these replies? As if I’m ranting hysterically that the size of the penny should be 10% smaller. Why is my issue apparently meaningless, whereas I’m sure that things in the game that you care about are of vital importance?

Aside from that one word being taken out of context, if you want a reply to that kind of question it’d be because perhaps leaderboards don’t have any effect ingame whislt other issues do? I say the discussion is pointless because while you and a few others call people out for wearing blinkers you forget you too are wearing blinkers.

That aside the thing you’re looking for should be a different leaderboard to achivement points which really are not compedtitive at all. You would have to change every single achivement to be a show of skill and compedtiveness and not how much time have you spent killing dolyaks.

If you want a truly compeditive pve leaderboard ask for one with timings on dungeon runs and world firsts etc.

Let I remind everyone that achievements are a history thing. It’s your achievements throughout the game and not a gauge of your “skill level”. Therefore, the achievement points are working as intended, players who have invested more time in the game to do their “achievements” should rightfully have more achievement points. These people have logged on everyday since release and did their dailies whereas you might have come in 2-3 months later and also did your achievements daily. However, who are you to say that their 2-3 months should not count since you’re late. Ultimately, no one can keep it up forever, so in the race of time, you may too be up there on the board.

Serephen.3420:

I say the discussion is pointless because while you and a few others call people out for wearing blinkers you forget you too are wearing blinkers.

Whoa whoa whoa. ’We’re all wearing blinkers’ therefore my particular issue is meaningless? What kind of logic is that?

And out of context? Please explain the usage of desperate in your post if not to make the exact implication that I answered.

Important, necessary, central. That’s a small list of synonyms that wouldn’t have purposefully painted me as mentally unstable.

We all have things we enjoy about the game. My suggestion does nothing to diminish other peoples enjoyment of the game, but does open the leaderboards up so that everyone can participate (not win, only those that play broadly will get the most).

Risingashes.8694:

So since you agree with me, and you don’t care about the subsystem- why not support me. Why not say ‘yes’? Then when something you care about comes along and you make a reasonable argument, I’ll be there to support you.

Explain your attitude to me.

Because I shouldn’t throw my support into something I don’t care about one way or the other. I should throw my support into something I actually care about or believe in, or else my support loses some semblance of meaning. (Not to other people, they wouldn’t give two skritt behinds. To myself.)

If you can check way back, you’ll find I also hold a lot of unpopular opinions, so maybe you should hold off even a suggestion of supporting me

marnick.4305:

That’s not what leaderboards should be about. But I’m just someone with a rational mind and a competitive mindset, I want the best to triumph, not the one with the most time. Maybe, having a clue about the real world isn’t relevant in videogames. But hey, we can try to make this game better right, even though I’ll personally never feature on a top rank.

The problem is, there’s no triumph. There’s no prize for topping the leaderboard. There’s no tournament, league, whatever. That’s what drove me to post in this thread, to answer the question bluntly.

There’s literally no advantage to having a high Achievement Score. The leaderboards serve barely any purpose. I say “barely” because someone did figure out you can use them to look for inactive guild members in a curious roundabout fashion. So far, that’s the only use I’ve seen mentioned for these.

Lafiel.9372:

Let I remind everyone that achievements are a history thing. It’s your achievements throughout the game and not a gauge of your “skill level”. Therefore, the achievement points are working as intended, players who have invested more time in the game to do their “achievements” should rightfully have more achievement points. These people have logged on everyday since release and did their dailies whereas you might have come in 2-3 months later and also did your achievements daily. However, who are you to say that their 2-3 months should not count since you’re late. Ultimately, no one can keep it up forever, so in the race of time, you may too be up there on the board.

Why should the only method of catching up to people be attrition (waiting for them to quit the game)?

If I join 2 months late but play whatever content the early adapters did, to the same amount, at the same skill level, why shouldn’t I eventually catch up?

Why are you so scared of actually competing with people, instead of relying on a first mover advantage?

Really they should just introduce a second leader board that ignores dailies and monthlies. Then everyone should be happy.

Vayne.8563:

Then everyone should be happy.

Hehe, good one.

kokiman.2364:

Vayne.8563:

Then everyone should be happy.

Hehe, good one.

Well, yeah, there will always be some one that’s unhappy, but I’m basically an optimist.

Risingashes.8694:

Whoa whoa whoa. ’We’re all wearing blinkers’ therefore my particular issue is meaningless? What kind of logic is that?

And out of context? Please explain the usage of desperate in your post if not to make the exact implication that I answered.

Ok before this gets blown out of proportion let me go through some things.

Blinkers: When I said that it was because it is the case with the vast majority of us this was not soley directed at you.

Out of context: because it is an important issue to you is it not? It comes across as something urgent that you want changed is it not? Hence desperate issue?

Pointless discussion: because there are already threads discussing this and it’d be better to add to them than creating duplicates all over the place. This is not a fault of this topic alone but of a fair amount of others.

I hope that helps clarify some. Yes I don’t see it as an issue because using achievements in a leaderboard in the manner you seem to want them to be held as (compeditively correct?) is unrealistic in that fact that achievements are a poor measure of skill and only really show how often someone has played the game dailies are not alone in this.

I gave a suggestion for a new leaderboard that would be better suited to what you are looking for if you read the post you quoted yet made no comment on that.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

_There’s literally no advantage to having a high Achievement Score. The leaderboards serve barely any purpose.

For you. There is no purpose to the leaderboards for you. For me the purpose is a fun, casual, friendly competition. I like achievements, and I like the achievement leaderboards.

I’m certainly not alone. To me the system itself is the reward. I don’t need a coat, or a minipet, or an armor dye. I have all those things. There is nothing in the game left that could reward me. If I want ingame rewards I’ll work towards getting that reward, I don’t need it from this.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Because I shouldn’t throw my support into something I don’t care about one way or the other.

Yet you certainly threw your sarcasm and mocking towards something you don’t care about. And that’s my point. Why are you in this thread if you don’t care either way? Why is mocking a cause you have no stake or opinion about okay, but supporting a cause that you don’t particularly care about unspeakable?

If it’s unconscionable to give support because of a lack of concern, shouldn’t it likewise be for un-support?

Clearly you think otherwise.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

If you can check way back, you’ll find I also hold a lot of unpopular opinions, so maybe you should hold off even a suggestion of supporting me

If you make a logical argument that only enhances everyone’s playtime then of course I would.

My support or obstruction is based upon fair judgement, a courtesy you’ve not afforded me.

Vayne.8563:

Really they should just introduce a second leader board that ignores dailies and monthlies. Then everyone should be happy.

Yeah, that’d be fine.

Actually there are several things Anet can do to make Leaderboards “fairer”. I’ve already talked about having different ones for dailies/no dailies, but how about this.

SPvP already has it’s own leaderboard. Not everyone SPvPs though and the Achievement Leaderboard has both a WvW and SPvP achievement column in it. What about making a purely PvE achievement leaderboard, for those who will never PvP?

Risingashes.8694:

Vayne.8563:

Really they should just introduce a second leader board that ignores dailies and monthlies. Then everyone should be happy.

Yeah, that’d be fine.

:( which is along the lines of something I was trying to long windedly suggest.

Vayne.8563:

Actually there are several things Anet can do to make Leaderboards “fairer”. I’ve already talked about having different ones for dailies/no dailies, but how about this.

SPvP already has it’s own leaderboard. Not everyone SPvPs though and the Achievement Leaderboard has both a WvW and SPvP achievement column in it. What about making a purely PvE achievement leaderboard, for those who will never PvP?

And this ^

Vayne.8563:

Actually there are several things Anet can do to make Leaderboards “fairer”. I’ve already talked about having different ones for dailies/no dailies, but how about this.

SPvP already has it’s own leaderboard. Not everyone SPvPs though and the Achievement Leaderboard has both a WvW and SPvP achievement column in it. What about making a purely PvE achievement leaderboard, for those who will never PvP?

That seems to be going a bit too far. You’re making the assumption that achievements are pve centric.

I’ve never viewed them as such. To me they’re a broadness indicator. People have to participate in all aspects of the game in order to rank highly.

And currently this is true for pve and pvp. WvW section fails completely as the time committment to get points from WvW is essentially 100 times that of other sections.

PvE specific leaderboards should be based upon dungeon clear times (fastest) or other such measures of skill. Achievements are hardly related to pve at all, it just so happens that the broadest spectrum of content is related to pve and therefore achievements highly reflect pve content.

This could easily be changed by substantially increasing the number of WvW achievement ranks (say 100 ranks per category instead of 5, or whatever it is now) and by assigning map or gamemode specific achievements to spvp (hopefully new game modes are eventually added as point capture is incredibly dull).

Risingashes.8694:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

_There’s literally no advantage to having a high Achievement Score. The leaderboards serve barely any purpose.

For you. There is no purpose to the leaderboards for you. For me the purpose is a fun, casual, friendly competition. I like achievements, and I like the achievement leaderboards.

Okay, I should perhaps clarify when I said “no point”. There’s no mechanical advantage to being anywhere on there. Can you produce something where there is an advantage?

Yet you certainly threw your sarcasm and mocking towards something you don’t care about. And that’s my point. Why are you in this thread if you don’t care either way? Why is mocking a cause you have no stake or opinion about okay, but supporting a cause that you don’t particularly care about unspeakable?

This? This isn’t mocking you. Sarcasm, I can agree with, but if I try to keep away from straight mockery. There’s no joy in it for me, honestly.

However, I mentioned above, I “jumped in” because this sort of things bugs me. To be clear: The idea Achievement Score needs to be some sort of yardstick of worth bugs me. I know that’s what you see in it, but I see arbitrary numbers with no impact on anything. It’s a high score screen for the new century, with exactly as little meaning to people who aren’t chasing being on it.

If you make a logical argument that only enhances everyone’s playtime then of course I would.

My support or obstruction is based upon fair judgement, a courtesy you’ve not afforded me.

No, no, I have not judged you . . . I judged this cause. You are very passionate about this, and you have made a good point.

However, as I repeat: the achievement system has absolutely no mechanical effect on anything. There’s no gating by it, there’s no reward for having X Achievement Score instead of Y . . . there’s barely titles outside of the PvP ranking ones.

If you were fighting for it to have some impact, I’d definitely start putting some thought into that. If you were fighting for even more titles or the ability to show every track after a point like in Guild Wars 1? I’d even vouch on that. But worrying about the total score?

It baffles me why anyone cares about who’s in the top 10% of the board. Like I said I, myself am there and nobody gives two craps about what I think/do.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Okay, I should perhaps clarify when I said “no point”. There’s no mechanical advantage to being anywhere on there. Can you produce something where there is an advantage?

I cannot. Although I question why this has relevance to you?

The system having mechanical importance would be horrible. Can you imagine if the more achievement points you had the more damage you did? Or the faster you got in to groups? Or the more words you could say in chat?

I’d fight against such a thing, I’d find it dreadful. I’d have far more rights than most of you but I would be livid that such a thing had occurred.

I would use my additional chat power to rile the unachieved masses against such injustice.

But we don’t live in that world. Achievements don’t affect the game. But that doesn’t mean the system has no value. People give it value, I give it value. I certainly don’t want to judge others based upon their scores, label them unbelievers, and force them out. On the contrary, I think automated, mechanically meaningless systems are wonderful for community, as you can choose if you want to compete or not and you aren’t punished for not doing so.

It’s the exact reason I hate the laurel system. Achievements shouldn’t be about rewards, once you tie a reward to something you force subsets of players in to doing things they do not want to do.

But people do want achievement points. Despite their mechanical meaninglessness, perhaps because of their mechanical meaninglessness. I certainly don’t like grinding, and if I was offered a minipet for grinding 1000 Ogres I wouldn’t even consider it. But I did it for 16 achievement points.

Is mechanical relevance really the only standard by which you judge the worth of a game feature?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

marnick.4305:

That’s not what leaderboards should be about. But I’m just someone with a rational mind and a competitive mindset, I want the best to triumph, not the one with the most time. Maybe, having a clue about the real world isn’t relevant in videogames. But hey, we can try to make this game better right, even though I’ll personally never feature on a top rank.

The problem is, there’s no triumph. There’s no prize for topping the leaderboard. There’s no tournament, league, whatever. That’s what drove me to post in this thread, to answer the question bluntly.

There’s literally no advantage to having a high Achievement Score. The leaderboards serve barely any purpose. I say “barely” because someone did figure out you can use them to look for inactive guild members in a curious roundabout fashion. So far, that’s the only use I’ve seen mentioned for these.

I repeat. I have a competitive mindset and try to approach problems in a rational manner. You obviously don’t, and I don’t judge you for that but please try to look at leaderboards from that perspective. People are happy if they can work for the top spot. Being top on the leaderboard is an award in and of itself, if and only if reaching that place is equally available to all.

Currently, only a handful of players have a chance at the top ranks regardless of effort put into becoming a top player. That’s neither competitive nor irrational. It’s a broken system.

Whether or not you consider it worth fixing is another debate entirely. But the current system is broken, and that’s pretty much not debatable.

Risingashes.8694:

But people do want achievement points. Despite their mechanical meaninglessness, perhaps because of their mechanical meaninglessness. I certainly don’t like grinding, and if I was offered a minipet for grinding 1000 Ogres I wouldn’t even consider it. But I did it for 16 achievement points.

I picked those up largely on accident. Truth. I raked them up doing events in eastern Plains of Ashford, southern Fields of Ruin, and eastern Blazeridge Steppes. Having a minipet or town clothing for these would be something I wouldn’t mind. Or the option of displaying it, even.

Is mechanical relevance really the only standard by which you judge the worth of a game feature?

No, but it is part of how I sort whether or not something “matters enough” to get worked up over. If a game feature is broken, but has little to no impact on the gameplay itself? I’d rather only just note “this is broken” and move on. I’d much rather talk about problematic event balancing, or lacking the same level of pet control I had in Guild Wars 1 (“Lock this target for your pet”), or Random Number Generator provided Precursors.

Or, failing at those, why Trahearne isn’t the Worst RPG Character Ever. No, that’s still going to be Kai Leng and I didn’t even play that game.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Is mechanical relevance really the only standard by which you judge the worth of a game feature?

No, but it is part of how I sort whether or not something “matters enough” to get worked up over. If a game feature is broken, but has little to no impact on the gameplay itself? I’d rather only just note “this is broken” and move on. I’d much rather talk about problematic event balancing, or lacking the same level of pet control I had in Guild Wars 1 (“Lock this target for your pet”), or Random Number Generator provided Precursors.

You ignore the fact that non-mechanical things often have far more influence on a game than mechanical things. If leaderboards don’t work properly, it reflects negatively on the entire game. Whether you personally acknowledge that is irrelevant, real world experience shows how the current system is broken.

Just look at the ELO system in chess. It works because ELO score is actually worthless. The higher ranked player does not get a second queen. Imagine the outrage if someone even suggested that in chess … yet in MMOs that’s standard practice.

The current leaderboards are counter-intuitive to all working ranking systems.

marnick.4305:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Is mechanical relevance really the only standard by which you judge the worth of a game feature?

No, but it is part of how I sort whether or not something “matters enough” to get worked up over. If a game feature is broken, but has little to no impact on the gameplay itself? I’d rather only just note “this is broken” and move on. I’d much rather talk about problematic event balancing, or lacking the same level of pet control I had in Guild Wars 1 (“Lock this target for your pet”), or Random Number Generator provided Precursors.

You ignore the fact that non-mechanical things often have far more influence on a game than mechanical things. If leaderboards don’t work properly, it reflects negatively on the entire game. Whether you personally acknowledge that is irrelevant, real world experience shows how the current system is broken.

Just look at the ELO system in chess. It works because ELO score is actually worthless. The higher ranked player does not get a second queen. Imagine the outrage if someone even suggested that in chess … yet in MMOs that’s standard practice.

The current leaderboards are counter-intuitive to all working ranking systems.

Don’t know much about the ELO system, but I presume that like the ATP tennis system, you keep your high score as long as you are playing and winning. If you were to take a break for a few months your score would drop especially if you had a very good run the previous year at that time.

I suggested this before already. Only count the last 3/4 months of dailies/monthlies in the rankings. Anything after that gets cut off. So the list would be in constant flux and people would be able to rise the ranks even though starting later.

Perhaps buy the game earlier?

This topic is pointless and I wish I had not wasted my time reading it.

Having done that I’m going to comment. May as well waste more time responding to a pointless complaint.

I disagree with your complaint.

Start playing earlier.

New players missed out on special events so they won’t top the charts until the players at the top stop playing or those that did top the charts had to miss the special events.

I don’t care if them starting late puts them behind, that is their problem for not purchasing the game sooner.

Next thing we’ll see is you people complaining that new players won’t get the points for the special events and you complainers will request that those points be removed or reduced.

I really wish you people would stop complaining so much or at least when you do it is something worthwhile.

When they introduced leaderboards, anet specified it was to bring some form of competition to the game (my guess is because they’re still working torward e-sport…). Unfortunately a leaderboard that contains achievements from daily and monthly is everything but competitive, like many said it just shows whose been playing longer, and that’s zero competition to me. In the end it will most likely end up the same for most people but the few at the top, ‘nobody cares’.

It would also be easy to avoid having the achievements stale at one point since everyone would have them, just increase the max possible for each one we have right now, like a slayer achievement could be increase to 2k, 5k, 10k kills, instead of capping at 1k.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Start playing earlier.

That is not an option for people that live in reality. We have to obey the constraints of time.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Next thing we’ll see is you people complaining that new players won’t get the points for the special events and you complainers will request that those points be removed or reduced.

Those points are still available to new players. Next year Wintersday, Mad King and all other achievements will be available to new players.

The 13 achievement points for doing insanely simple things on 19th April 2013 will never be available again.

Why do you believe that playing earlier is somehow more valuable than not doing so?

I think achievement points should be awarded based upon merit rather than legacy. I’m unsure how you could possibly disagree.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

waste of my time

Maybe if you had actually understood what had been written, instead of just mindlessly scrolling through the text you’d of found the time better spent, as the argument made by your post has been specifically addressed multiple times.

The issue is points which are impossible to get. HOM points can be gotten. Holiday points can be gotten. Those points are achievable. Daily points simply are not.

Risingashes.8694:

The issue is points which are impossible to get. HOM points can be gotten. Holiday points can be gotten. Those points are achievable. Daily points simply are not.

I’m not sure the past holiday achievement points can still be gotten. Like it wouldn’t surprise me next year if they offered a different set?

Would be nice to get an ANet confirmation on this.