Guild Wars 2

You sir, are one of those rare individuals that think rationally and tackle the problem from all sides. I applaud you.

On the fully geared part, it would be interesting to see gear just as cosmetics and the only stat points you get is from traits and a predetermined number at 80 that you can divy up where you want. No gear treadmill, no upgrades, etc. Just cosmetics. Would make things interesting…

Agreed. Well typed good sir.

Yes the did implement it and paid a very high price for doing so. Player population and revenue stream.

There would have been more people playing had the done proper HP instead of cheap VP.
They may have sold a lot of copies but how many did they retain and play on a regular basis? Not a lot dismal actually. I mean about the same Bioware TOR had when F2P launched a little while ago.
Had they stuck with proper HP and explained why they would have a greater population and more persistent revenue stream.

The backlash over ascend has been on par with SWG and fansites are constantly hit with negative posts from fanhate.

But instead they threw the people who help support and launch this game under the bus the first chance they got.

So had they kept HP there would be larger consistent player population, the locusts and +1 grindaholics would have left yes, but there would be a happier population buying gems and Anets reputation would have been in tact.

I don’t think the full damage from their manifesto abandonment has been seen yet. I still think that GW2 is -currently- the best MMO on the market. They were already going to lose the grindaholics to FF14 or the next big WoW patch…but now I also don’t see them being able to hold their former franchise fanbase from ESO or Camelot Unchained.

Narkosys.5173:

Yes the did implement it and paid a very high price for doing so. Player population and revenue stream.

There would have been more people playing had the done proper HP instead of cheap VP.
They may have sold a lot of copies but how many did they retain and play on a regular basis? Not a lot dismal actually. I mean about the same Bioware TOR had when F2P launched a little while ago.
Had they stuck with proper HP and explained why they would have a greater population and more persistent revenue stream.

The backlash over ascend has been on par with SWG and fansites are constantly hit with negative posts from fanhate.

But instead they threw the people who help support and launch this game under the bus the first chance they got.

So had they kept HP there would be larger consistent player population, the locusts and +1 grindaholics would have left yes, but there would be a happier population buying gems and Anets reputation would have been in tact.

I disagree. I don’t know anyone who would have bought it if it had nothing but some silly costumes as rewards. I’m guessing the population would be next to nothing if they had no vertical progression. I already hear enough complaining about having nothing to work towards at 80 because all the rewards are the same.

there must be smarter way to make an endgame than a gear treadmill.

thats the issue. and thats where the revolution failed.

I agree with your base argument, but I still don’t appreciate the introduction of Ascended gear :P

Danikat.8537:

Because Anet saw that a significant portion of their playerbase wanted something and they gave it to us. Even though it was something they themselves were not in favour of and had intended to avoid.

And I take that as a very good sign because it means they’re likely to do it again with other issues. In fact they already have. Not too long ago there was a thread with over 100 replies about dailies being boring and how people wished it would change like the monthly. And we got that too.

Well you know, that’s actually what I’m worrying about: I for my part loved the game for the way it was and not for the way people wanted it to be. And yeah I myself have some difficulties with those dailies which imo primarly result from several wishes people had, for example reward, reward, reward…

1) As someone pointed out to us, gear progression was actually not part of the Manifesto. So on this point they didn’t go against their manifesto and your title is therefore incorrect. What they did talk about and did break their promise on was “my story” and " we don’t make grindy games". But those are other subjects.

2) Gear progression or the treadmill as you call it is done better in other games. GW2, in my view, doesn’t do a very good job at it. And endgame as a whole is basically WvW and a couple of dungeons. They could’ve saved themselves the trouble of building a huge leveling world that appears to be abandoned by most to favor fractals.

I was under the impression GW2 would be closer to GW1 than it was in the end. The problem with GW2 for me is that GW2 does not have enough treadmill or vertical progression to make it interesting and at the same time fails miserably at horizontal progression at the same time. Odd, because they did rather well at that in GW1.

Now I don’t need GW2 to be like GW1 but it simply is boring to me. Leveling grew stale very fast and endgame is too limited and also boring. Dungeons are not very interesting after doing them a couple of times. So what’s left? WvW? Fun from time to time but the same 2 maps do get old.

They should’ve spent less time on making too many leveling zones and spent more time in making better dungeons, better looking gear and more endgame in general.

Woohoo, fractals and WvW. Maybe in a year or two they finally with have some decent content for level 80s…..oh wait no, then it will be level 90 or 100. Even more levels to grind to complete boredom.

I think whats become even more obvious is that for all bombast about wanting something different. People actually don’t. They want vertical progression, the trinity, rewards, rewards, mounts, gear progression and raiding…they want the game to give them goals instead of finding them on their own.

And they’ll stop at nothing to get the one game that actually tried to let them use their imaginations…to give them what they want. In some ways, sadly, they’ve succeeded. Even though there are myriad other games that fulfill those needs.

Raf.1078:

I think whats become even more obvious is that for all bombast about wanting something different. People actually don’t. They want vertical progression, the trinity, rewards, rewards, mounts, gear progression and raiding…they want the game to give them goals instead of finding them on their own.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say that. I watched hundreds of players leave because of a dissatisfying PvP experience. I can’t recall anyone who left because of any of the reasons you list above, though at least one of them, the trinity argument, has merit (it enhances the experience of rolling an alt).

I think there’s something which is lost in all this; what happened to PvP? I’ve always heard GW1 was a PvP oriented game, and ostensibly WvW/PvP was the bulk of the endgame prior to Lost Shores, and yet the near total failure of PvP in this game goes unnoticed.

There are always groups in MMOs that like an aspect of the game but not the other and vice versa. Usually these are split between PvE vs PvP players and casual vs non-casual players. You can’t satisfy everyone and there are reasonable and non-reasonable requests. Anet needs to make their own decision and pick only the good requests suggested by players.

For an example, SWTOR and bioware. I swear, they literally listened to every crying post on the forums and look where it lead them. They actually nerfed the least played class multiple times which makes absolutely no sense and they had game breaking changes like every patch as well.

Personally, I thought the ascended gear is a good and bad idea. You need something to do ingame and have ascended gear fulfills that but Anet needs to keep in mind that there are PvP and PvE players. Also, the fact that WvW (pvp) uses PvE gear and having ascended gear acquired through PvE only makes no sense.

Meh, I wouldn’t even call it “breaking the manifesto”. As for agony resistance, a good player can simply dodge such attacks (minus Jade Maw anyway).

With that aside, if ascended was released at launch, no one would complain about “breaking the manifesto”. The only problem was that it wasn’t released at launch. Ascended is simply a new tier. Going from exotic → ascended is the same as going from rare → exotic.

Heijincks.9267:

Meh, I wouldn’t even call it “breaking the manifesto”. As for agony resistance, a good player can simply dodge such attacks (minus Jade Maw anyway).

With that aside, if ascended was released at launch, no one would complain about “breaking the manifesto”. The only problem was that it wasn’t released at launch. Ascended is simply a new tier. Going from exotic -> ascended is the same as going from rare -> exotic.

If it was available at launch but still obtained the same way it is now, then yes there would be many complaints and w3 would have never taken off to begin with much less dying a few months in.

There are a million problems with the game, if anything the major problem is the bulk of players confusing anet/ncsoft with what ‘they’ want from the game. The remaining playerbase want a game more like WoW, some want something akin to Everquest and others hail from games like EvE.

I still think, personally abandoning the original Manifesto was a terrible idea, and thats what lead to the mass-exodus and all the player rebellions in the first place, which lead to the reddit panel. My beef is that what mentioned on the reddit panel, none of it has materialized.

I totally disagree with the OP, sadly the Guildwars we grew up with has been mutilated after its death, while this game has its fun but is quite shallow, i don’t really consider it as Guildwars game sorry..

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

There are a million problems with the game, if anything the major problem is the bulk of players confusing anet/ncsoft with what ‘they’ want from the game. The remaining playerbase want a game more like WoW, some want something akin to Everquest and others hail from games like EvE.

I still think, personally abandoning the original Manifesto was a terrible idea, and thats what lead to the mass-exodus and all the player rebellions in the first place, which lead to the reddit panel. My beef is that what mentioned on the reddit panel, none of it has materialized.

Why not watch the manifesto and tell me what Anet abandoned. Because I wanted it, and it’s pretty much what they said. I’ll give you a hint. The grind portion clearly referred to combat grind, not vertical progression.

Anet didn’t abandon their manifesto. People have abandoned their memories.

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

There are a million problems with the game, if anything the major problem is the bulk of players confusing anet/ncsoft with what ‘they’ want from the game. The remaining playerbase want a game more like WoW, some want something akin to Everquest and others hail from games like EvE.

I still think, personally abandoning the original Manifesto was a terrible idea, and thats what lead to the mass-exodus and all the player rebellions in the first place, which lead to the reddit panel. My beef is that what mentioned on the reddit panel, none of it has materialized.

I noticed a lot of what was said never appeared too, was it all a PR stunt..

Vayne.8563:

The grind portion clearly referred to combat grind, not vertical progression.

Combat grind? What is combat grind? In a decade of playing MMOs, I’ve never seen the word “grind” used that way.

Vayne.8563:

Anet didn’t abandon their manifesto. People have abandoned their memories.

So -everyone- that claims they abandoned the manifesto has a bad memory? Except for you?

Rooks Zaer.5846:

Vayne.8563:

The grind portion clearly referred to combat grind, not vertical progression.

Combat grind? What is combat grind? In a decade of playing MMOs, I’ve never seen the word “grind” used that way.

Vayne.8563:

Anet didn’t abandon their manifesto. People have abandoned their memories.

So -everyone- that claims they abandoned the manifesto has a bad memory? Except for you?

1. Combat grind is like MapleStory grind.

2. To what definition of “abandoning the manifesto” is really subjective to an individual. Going from cheap masterworks to exotics is also vertical progression (not to mention there’s also grind involved), but does that go against Anet’s manifesto?

Honestly, I’m really disappointed. I bought the game the second pre-order was available (Gamestop was more than excited to take my money). I followed every link, read every blog, watched every video. I was, quite frankly, excited like no other game before or after. I loved Guild Wars; I loved the PvP, I loved the story (I know some considered it weak), I loved the feel, and I loved the mechanics. I have so much lore and ‘fluff’ memorized that I think I could stun a lot of arena net employees even.

Better still, Guild Wars 2 held so much promise the concept of skills changing based on weapons was amazing, a personal story where we affected the world, events that changed the map and had a lasting impact. Now, I feel really let down.

WvW feels completely pointless, it can be a lot of fun for a while but inevitably it gets boring. SPvP feels like an absolute nightmare, to me at least, and I can’t bring myself to bother. Our Personal Story feels, for the first 20 levels, amazing before it just grinds to a halt and becomes a slog. The promised events having an effect in the world seems hollow, they have an effect for maybe a few hours at best. Really, the only part that remains is the weapons, but the lack of skills pales in comparison to the original game (even if in the original game there were many sub-optimal choices). Frankly, I feel like the saving grace really are the weapons.

Now we have the ‘gear grind’, which honestly I couldn’t care less about. I’m not a terrible fan of farming dungeons, or really even fractals. The only ‘gear grind’ I really do is for my Legendary. Perhaps it’s just me, but I don’t want to sink endless hours into getting gear that will soon be outmoded and pointless, it’s an utter waste of my time. If I sink hours into something I want it to matter, if that’s not gonna happen then I just won’t bother.

Maybe I was expecting too much, honestly it’s quite likely. I feel like I’d almost have rather had another Guild Wars expansion (or more) than Guild Wars 2. The ideas are great, the vision is beautiful, the art can be stunning, but in the end the product doesn’t feel like it delivers. It just feels like we’re going back to being another MMO grind.

I’m sticking around because it’s still, doubtlessly, my favorite game. I’ve all but grown up on the franchise, Guild Wars was my first MMO, the first game I really fell into and grew to love. I don’t know if Anet can fix the issues, I don’t if they want to fix the issues honestly (they are a business and have to be rational after all) but I can’t help but be disappointed in the direction they’re going now.

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

There are a million problems with the game, if anything the major problem is the bulk of players confusing anet/ncsoft with what ‘they’ want from the game. The remaining playerbase want a game more like WoW, some want something akin to Everquest and others hail from games like EvE.

I still think, personally abandoning the original Manifesto was a terrible idea, and thats what lead to the mass-exodus and all the player rebellions in the first place, which lead to the reddit panel. My beef is that what mentioned on the reddit panel, none of it has materialized.

Just curious: what mass exodus? Rebellions? I’m asking this as someone who doesn’t really follow the “politics”, if you will, of this game, and haven’t really noticed anything of this nature in-game. Are there actually fewer players now, and if so, where can I find the stats? Just concerned for this game is all.

Rooks Zaer.5846:

Vayne.8563:

The grind portion clearly referred to combat grind, not vertical progression.

Combat grind? What is combat grind? In a decade of playing MMOs, I’ve never seen the word “grind” used that way.

Vayne.8563:

Anet didn’t abandon their manifesto. People have abandoned their memories.

So -everyone- that claims they abandoned the manifesto has a bad memory? Except for you?

No, see when people said they abandoned their manifesto, I didn’t just take their word for it, because too many people indulge in hyperbole. Or they hear something and repeat it without checking it out. My occupation requires me to fact check, so that’s what I did. Since the manifesto is still on web it was easy enough to watch it and listen. This is the ONLY mention of grind in the manifesto.

“‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”

He’s talking about grinding to level. In many MMOs you just have to kill stuff endlessly to level. You don’t get mad experience for exploring or crafting, like you do in Guild Wars 2.

There’s nothing in that manifesto that mentions vertical progression even though there are a couple of later quotes from interviews from devs talking about it…but that’s NOT their manifesto.

The manifesto was a video released by Anet that told what they intended to do. The only real problem with it was the editing, because Colin was talking about dynamic events and Ree was talking about personal story and it confused people because of the editing. They came out with a statement shortly after it was released to abate that confusion.

Anet didn’t go against their manifesto and you should stop believing everything you read on a forum. Check it out for yourself if you don’t believe me.

achensherd.2735:

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

There are a million problems with the game, if anything the major problem is the bulk of players confusing anet/ncsoft with what ‘they’ want from the game. The remaining playerbase want a game more like WoW, some want something akin to Everquest and others hail from games like EvE.

I still think, personally abandoning the original Manifesto was a terrible idea, and thats what lead to the mass-exodus and all the player rebellions in the first place, which lead to the reddit panel. My beef is that what mentioned on the reddit panel, none of it has materialized.

Just curious: what mass exodus? Rebellions? I’m asking this as someone who doesn’t really follow the “politics”, if you will, of this game, and haven’t really noticed anything of this nature in-game. Are there actually fewer players now, and if so, where can I find the stats? Just concerned for this game is all.

You would have to go back to the Halloween events, thats where it all started. Since then, its not hard to notice the massive amount of players who have left the game. Also, research Guild Wars 2 reddit Panel, and the reasons why.

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

achensherd.2735:

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

There are a million problems with the game, if anything the major problem is the bulk of players confusing anet/ncsoft with what ‘they’ want from the game. The remaining playerbase want a game more like WoW, some want something akin to Everquest and others hail from games like EvE.

I still think, personally abandoning the original Manifesto was a terrible idea, and thats what lead to the mass-exodus and all the player rebellions in the first place, which lead to the reddit panel. My beef is that what mentioned on the reddit panel, none of it has materialized.

Just curious: what mass exodus? Rebellions? I’m asking this as someone who doesn’t really follow the “politics”, if you will, of this game, and haven’t really noticed anything of this nature in-game. Are there actually fewer players now, and if so, where can I find the stats? Just concerned for this game is all.

You would have to go back to the Halloween events, thats where it all started. Since then, its not hard to notice the massive amount of players who have left the game. Also, research Guild Wars 2 reddit Panel, and the reasons why.

Firstly, the accusations of “abandoning the manifesto” didn’t happen until ascended was announced (which was in November).

Secondly, “mass player exodus” happens in every newly released MMORPG. I shouldn’t be surprised that it happened to GW2.

Thirdly, people on this forum only represents a minority of people who actually plays the game. Let’s be honest here, if people are having fun with the game, they wouldn’t be on the forums in the first place. Some people don’t even know a forum exists. On another note, most “main forums” are full of negativity anyway.

Fourthly, I admit, the answers on the AMA is wishy washy. Some people didn’t get answers. Then again, it’s bad to make too many promises. It just pisses more people off in the future if they aren’t met.

Not sure if trollbaiting or serious.

I don’t have a problem with the current implementation of ascended gear. It is a long term goal and will keep me busy for a while. Content locusts can’t be satisfied, a.net should actively ignore this 1%.

Anyhow the problem with ascended is two-fold:
- The original blog post was insulting towards GW1 players. It was actually extremely insulting. They apologized so I’m OK with this.
- Ascended equipment is the start of a slippery slope and as of yet A.net have confirmed to go down this dangerous route. It has to be done right, because catering to content locust is not a good thing for this game.

It looks like ascended is going the right direction. I hope I can still play the game in 2 years.

Tinboy.7954:

Personally, I thought the ascended gear is a good and bad idea. You need something to do ingame and have ascended gear fulfills that but Anet needs to keep in mind that there are PvP and PvE players. Also, the fact that WvW (pvp) uses PvE gear and having ascended gear acquired through PvE only makes no sense.

It actually makes perfect sense because while WvW is PvP in effect, you still can get every single daily requirement simply by playing WvW. Monthlies not so much, with the dungeon requirement, but on the flip side of that there’s plenty of people who wouldn’t touch WvW if it weren’t for the WvW requirements that can pop up in monthlies as well.

About the only part of this game that can purely be considered PvP is sPvP, which has it’s own dailies, monthlies, and gear.

Heijincks.9267:

<snip>Thirdly, people on this forum only represents a minority of people who actually plays the game. Let’s be honest here, if people are having fun with the game, they wouldn’t be on the forums in the first place. Some people don’t even know a forum exists. On another note, most “main forums” are full of negativity anyway.<snip>

The amount might be a minority, but you have no idea whether the opinions of said minority is also a minority.

Many people play and leave a game without touching the forum, but that does not mean their opinions are in contrary to the opinions of vocal people.

The only thing you can deduce from it is that they don’t post on forums. You can’t infer they’re ‘happy’ about the state of things and/or they don’t want changes.
They might or might not be more happy and might or might not have more fun if the game was different. But just don’t want to dedicate effort into a forum-warfare.

You can’t use a ‘silent majority’ to back up any argument because you don’t know their position or motivations to play.

And then people can claim it’s normal for any MMO to loose a big bunch of players; however that loss often comes because the games don’t provide what’s promised.
People leave because they’re not willing to pay or use resources for that service. Yet they were interested enough in the product to buy it to begin with.
Bad retention in MMOs are a result of the products and not because ‘that is just how it always is’.

In that case, can we just start calling this game a WoW clone?

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

achensherd.2735:

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

There are a million problems with the game, if anything the major problem is the bulk of players confusing anet/ncsoft with what ‘they’ want from the game. The remaining playerbase want a game more like WoW, some want something akin to Everquest and others hail from games like EvE.

I still think, personally abandoning the original Manifesto was a terrible idea, and thats what lead to the mass-exodus and all the player rebellions in the first place, which lead to the reddit panel. My beef is that what mentioned on the reddit panel, none of it has materialized.

Just curious: what mass exodus? Rebellions? I’m asking this as someone who doesn’t really follow the “politics”, if you will, of this game, and haven’t really noticed anything of this nature in-game. Are there actually fewer players now, and if so, where can I find the stats? Just concerned for this game is all.

You would have to go back to the Halloween events, thats where it all started. Since then, its not hard to notice the massive amount of players who have left the game. Also, research Guild Wars 2 reddit Panel, and the reasons why.

This post couldn’t be further from the truth. At least on my server. Think the fewest people I had at an event today was 5. I’ve seen the exact opposite of what you posted.

Xandax.1753:

The amount might be a minority, but you have no idea whether the opinions of said minority is also a minority.

Many people play and leave a game without touching the forum, but that does not mean their opinions are in contrary to the opinions of vocal people.

Usually it is. Bar a few exceptions, there are only 2 kinds of people who are active on the forums for videogames:

1) people who are unhappy with the game and need to vent their opinion

2) people who can’t play the game currently because of being at work, in school, family reunion, …

All other people are in game instead of alt-tabbed to their browser. The vast majority of forum people is the first group and by default they are unhappy. It is the only reason you would quit the game to visit a forum. That means their opinion has value, but almost certainly is not the opinion of the playerbase in general.

Group 2 is usually far more positive. They are on the boards as a substitute for the game they love. Since jobs with free internet use are not that common, this group is obviously a minority in the forums. I’m in this group.
You could see on my post history that I don’t post in the weekends and not in the evenings. When I’m absent for a week, it means I have holiday. That’s when I’m actually playing the game
Whether or not this fanboy group 2’s opinion holds more weight than that of the first group is another question entirely. We are both minorities when looking at the playerbase.

Xandax.1753:

Heijincks.9267:

<snip>Thirdly, people on this forum only represents a minority of people who actually plays the game. Let’s be honest here, if people are having fun with the game, they wouldn’t be on the forums in the first place. Some people don’t even know a forum exists. On another note, most “main forums” are full of negativity anyway.<snip>

The amount might be a minority, but you have no idea whether the opinions of said minority is also a minority.

Many people play and leave a game without touching the forum, but that does not mean their opinions are in contrary to the opinions of vocal people.

The only thing you can deduce from it is that they don’t post on forums. You can’t infer they’re ‘happy’ about the state of things and/or they don’t want changes.
They might or might not be more happy and might or might not have more fun if the game was different. But just don’t want to dedicate effort into a forum-warfare.

You can’t use a ‘silent majority’ to back up any argument because you don’t know their position or motivations to play.

And then people can claim it’s normal for any MMO to loose a big bunch of players; however that loss often comes because the games don’t provide what’s promised.
People leave because they’re not willing to pay or use resources for that service. Yet they were interested enough in the product to buy it to begin with.
Bad retention in MMOs are a result of the products and not because ‘that is just how it always is’.

Actually, there are ways which you can infer the thoughts of the “silent majority”. One, we know that they still play, so for whatever reason they didn’t find a reason to quit yet. Two, it cuts both ways here; they might be overall happy about the changes. The fact that the game is growing correlates with the positive note. I’m not hesitant to say I’m being speculative here however.

By default however, and by whichever case, the opinions presented on these forums are still far from conclusive.

Also, as far as new MMOs seeing drops in population after release, it’s been a trend in pretty much every known MMO. You have to also note that how someone finds a game “fun” is purely subjective. For one person, all promises may have been delivered, but for another, hardly at all. As long as that remains the case, any MMO would fail to deliver to one population always. I’m not sure what fraction of the initial 3 million players quit, but the plummet didn’t seem significant enough to cause any major damage to the game.

I still would prefer them working on issues which really matters , for example classes. Some of classes of which i have 2 are still haunted by terrible bugs which brakes game for us , thiefs still own spvp , warriors still does ridiculous amounts of damage at pve scene and generally we have no balance at all.

It is nice we got the aptly named fractals for people who like that sort of thing specifically, but I’m pritty sure alot of us commented on their story, and they still haven’t fixed that… or added cinamatics that weren’t slow and a bit dull…

It seems pritty clear to me that the manifesto was just marketing designed to give us the perception that this was the type of game alot of us wanted to play, unfortunatly that sentiment doesn’t bleed from my screen every time I load it up, even if that is how Anet sees themselves. But their hearts, as far as the PR is concerned, is in the right place, and it is a decent game, just not as mind blowingly awsome as some of us thought it could be. And ascended gear didn’t make the game more awsome for people who didn’t want it, so it’s nice you and others are happy, but I don’t expect people who didn’t care for this kind of thing, to be happy because you’re happy…

If they wanted to tweek the game and make us all more powerful they could have done that rather than giving us new gear, while still adding the fractals with neat rewards. But I’m guessing that wouldn’t have done anything to placate the whining comming from those that are now happy with ascended gear and the segregation it’s apparently caused.

To be honest, i find PVE in this game to be incredibly boring. It’s ok the first time you level up, and a world is gorgeous, but then, the dungeons are really poorly designed (i come from a small dungeon based mmorpg which really spoiled me with excellent and clever dungeon design), the open map action is extremely repetitive and once you reach 80, well, FOTM 19 lf3m.

But i think anet’s move was nothing short a genius : there was a lot of angry people protesting the lack of endgame, and they tossed them 1 (yes just ONE even if it’s made of several smaller dungeons) dungeon and the angry people turned into zombies and started running it. I don’t get it to be honest : why do people accept to run around in circle like that ? It’s sounds as fun as watching only one episode of your favorite tv show over and over and over again. Are you looking for a fun game or for an addiction ?

Of course now the other kind of players is worried.

We shall see, but i hope anet will make content for everyone, not just for endless unfun pointless grinding fans. If it wasn’t for WvW, which i love despite the many complaints, i would have been long gone.

Gehenna.3625:

1) As someone pointed out to us, gear progression was actually not part of the Manifesto. So on this point they didn’t go against their manifesto and your title is therefore incorrect. What they did talk about and did break their promise on was “my story” and " we don’t make grindy games". But those are other subjects.

That is another subject, but it bears mention.

It’s nearly impossible to make a totally-grindless game. After all, that would require that NPCs be unkillable, nodes be unlootable and quests be uncompletable.

What is very possible is to construct a game that has reduced grind, which ANet accomplishes by removing the largest potential grind-fest — the grind for PvP viability — and giving us alternate methods of leveling (crafting XP/sPvP).

On the subject of the Personal Story, I think they did a good job. It’s not perfect, obviously, but meh. ANet still managed to craft a story around the individual, in a genre that is by definition intended for multiple players.

In short, ANet is trying to break out of the form-fitting ‘Kill X rats’ mold that has dominated the MMO genre since the earliest days of Ultima Online. I look forward to seeing how they’ll challenge the preconceptions of a largely carbon-copy industry in the future.

i m here since launch…

there were FEW really FEW posts complaining about endgame….

Now there are the same numbers of posts complaining about endgame aside the facts, most are deleted (so people doesn t even bother).

Also a big part of the community changed for the worst, this game was a paradise, now you see every sort of bad attitude in game….

What changed since that kitten 15 november?

Before that i could log and decide what to do…..
Now i log and ANET tells me what i NEED to do…

Do daily asap….you need those stats
Farm for legendary is a new tier
Don t craft that rare exotic skin you like, you better save for legendary
Farm Fotm for acended items (or wait months to equip your characters)

Basically few players that needed to been told what to play and how ruined the game for many…..game population decreased and most nice players were replaced by reward obsessed players…

Since them we have:
-speed runners
-griefers of any kind
-tons of elitist (<= NB that speaking of elitist doesn t mean i am a newbye….i m skilled enough to play difficult content with pugs, thing that most elitist won t be able to do…).
-huge market speculation

They changed their audience for the worse, and they ruined a long earned good reputation since then….

They just could have added content rather than losing time with vertical progression…..

I wonder if they now think still it was a good move…..
Imho not seeing as they are somehow trying to remedy to the situation…(that is the reason i m still here).

Heijincks.9267:

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

achensherd.2735:

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

There are a million problems with the game, if anything the major problem is the bulk of players confusing anet/ncsoft with what ‘they’ want from the game. The remaining playerbase want a game more like WoW, some want something akin to Everquest and others hail from games like EvE.

I still think, personally abandoning the original Manifesto was a terrible idea, and thats what lead to the mass-exodus and all the player rebellions in the first place, which lead to the reddit panel. My beef is that what mentioned on the reddit panel, none of it has materialized.

Just curious: what mass exodus? Rebellions? I’m asking this as someone who doesn’t really follow the “politics”, if you will, of this game, and haven’t really noticed anything of this nature in-game. Are there actually fewer players now, and if so, where can I find the stats? Just concerned for this game is all.

You would have to go back to the Halloween events, thats where it all started. Since then, its not hard to notice the massive amount of players who have left the game. Also, research Guild Wars 2 reddit Panel, and the reasons why.

Firstly, the accusations of “abandoning the manifesto” didn’t happen until ascended was announced (which was in November).

Secondly, “mass player exodus” happens in every newly released MMORPG. I shouldn’t be surprised that it happened to GW2.

Thirdly, people on this forum only represents a minority of people who actually plays the game. Let’s be honest here, if people are having fun with the game, they wouldn’t be on the forums in the first place. Some people don’t even know a forum exists. On another note, most “main forums” are full of negativity anyway.

Fourthly, I admit, the answers on the AMA is wishy washy. Some people didn’t get answers. Then again, it’s bad to make too many promises. It just pisses more people off in the future if they aren’t met.

Thats not exactly true either is it? There was already writing on the wall during October that anets manifesto was probably going to be thrown out the window, there was many posts and forum fights about it, I remember it pretty kitten well. And low and behold, once the ascended items was announced all hell broke loose.

Mass Exodus don’t always happen with new MMos, only when some massive changes/errors or issues that tick off alot of players. I remember my last M.E was from Everquest 2 about 5 months after launch when they was really messing around with the tier of mobs.

My point of view, is that I couldn’t really careless about the manifesto to begin with, and I’ve been following this game for years. What I care about is a fun, balanced and fair game for everyone, sadly anet is dropping the ball alot lately – only reason I’m still around is I’m giving them the benefit of doubt, at least for now. This sinking ship could always be saved with a few decent patches after all.

I just can’t wait to see how ascended items gets introduced to other parts of the game.

If I can make one suggestion though. When ascended gear reaches normal dungeons, can we perhaps have a universal token system. So instead of each dungeon getting a piece of gear and letting us grind out one dungeon, rather have one vendor with a lot of ascended gear and let us exchange the other dungeon’s tokens for the ascended token.

That way we can play whichever dungeon we like. Or perhaps add an upgrade system, where we just upgrade our existing dungeon gear to ascended. Something like that.

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

Heijincks.9267:

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

achensherd.2735:

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

There are a million problems with the game, if anything the major problem is the bulk of players confusing anet/ncsoft with what ‘they’ want from the game. The remaining playerbase want a game more like WoW, some want something akin to Everquest and others hail from games like EvE.

I still think, personally abandoning the original Manifesto was a terrible idea, and thats what lead to the mass-exodus and all the player rebellions in the first place, which lead to the reddit panel. My beef is that what mentioned on the reddit panel, none of it has materialized.

Just curious: what mass exodus? Rebellions? I’m asking this as someone who doesn’t really follow the “politics”, if you will, of this game, and haven’t really noticed anything of this nature in-game. Are there actually fewer players now, and if so, where can I find the stats? Just concerned for this game is all.

You would have to go back to the Halloween events, thats where it all started. Since then, its not hard to notice the massive amount of players who have left the game. Also, research Guild Wars 2 reddit Panel, and the reasons why.

Firstly, the accusations of “abandoning the manifesto” didn’t happen until ascended was announced (which was in November).

Secondly, “mass player exodus” happens in every newly released MMORPG. I shouldn’t be surprised that it happened to GW2.

Thirdly, people on this forum only represents a minority of people who actually plays the game. Let’s be honest here, if people are having fun with the game, they wouldn’t be on the forums in the first place. Some people don’t even know a forum exists. On another note, most “main forums” are full of negativity anyway.

Fourthly, I admit, the answers on the AMA is wishy washy. Some people didn’t get answers. Then again, it’s bad to make too many promises. It just pisses more people off in the future if they aren’t met.

Thats not exactly true either is it? There was already writing on the wall during October that anets manifesto was probably going to be thrown out the window, there was many posts and forum fights about it, I remember it pretty kitten well. And low and behold, once the ascended items was announced all hell broke loose.

Mass Exodus don’t always happen with new MMos, only when some massive changes/errors or issues that tick off alot of players. I remember my last M.E was from Everquest 2 about 5 months after launch when they was really messing around with the tier of mobs.

My point of view, is that I couldn’t really careless about the manifesto to begin with, and I’ve been following this game for years. What I care about is a fun, balanced and fair game for everyone, sadly anet is dropping the ball alot lately – only reason I’m still around is I’m giving them the benefit of doubt, at least for now. This sinking ship could always be saved with a few decent patches after all.

What may have sparked the initial idea that ANet was going to throw the manifesto out the window? I certainly didn’t remember any of it. When they “did throw it out” there was the initial outrage, but that quieted down quite significantly since. Everyone stopped complaining once they got the new ascended shinies, even the ones who were opposed to it at first. Less and less people are going to bring it up again until more ascended stuff is introduced. Then again, the claim that ANet “threw out the manifesto” is highly debatable.

As far as mass exodus is concerned however, I don’t think I’ve seen any major MMO that didn’t suffer from one at one point or another. Many new MMOs die after three months. I can’t name one that didn’t have an initial population drop soon after launch.

At the end, you’re right. It doesn’t exactly matter as long as fun ensues. Whether ANet’s been “dropping the ball” however, I only partially agree (there are definitely screw ups). As far as GW2 being a sinking ship, I beg to differ. The ship’s certainly floating — as a matter of fact sailing — just not in the direction some players would like.

I would like someone to quote the manifesto, and show me in black and white where Anet went back on it. I’ll wait here.

Danikat.8537:

I’ve been meaning to make this topic for a while now, but I feel like it’s even more relevant in light of recent updates.

For those of you who don’t remember (and if you don’t believe me you can check) before the November update this forum was full of endless topics about how there is no “end game” in GW2 and this game “needs” a gear treadmill to keep people interested. And guess what? We got it.

Which lead to an interesting situation that looked a lot like a case of “be careful what you wish for” where the endgame/treadmill threads were replaced with (IMO a smaller number of) threads raging about how Anet have ruined the game forever and broke their promise in doing so.

But I suspect, given the number of people I see doing and talking about Fractals (positively) it’s actually that we had two groups – one who desperately wanted this and are now happy and focused on playing the game mode they wanted and another who didn’t want it and are still here raging about how they were lied to.

Now I’ve never played Fractals and I have no plans to do so any time soon. I have no interest in vertical progression and certainly not in the form of a gear treadmill. In theory I got absolutely nothing from this additional content, but I’m happy that it’s there.

Why?

Because Anet saw that a significant portion of their playerbase wanted something and they gave it to us. Even though it was something they themselves were not in favour of and had intended to avoid.

And I take that as a very good sign because it means they’re likely to do it again with other issues. In fact they already have. Not too long ago there was a thread with over 100 replies about dailies being boring and how people wished it would change like the monthly. And we got that too.

Then there were complaints that people were “forced” to grind things they would never otherwise do (like gathering and, ummm dodging) and should be able to pick what they did for the dailies. And now we’re getting that too.

I’d make some joke about asking for unicorns that shoot rainbows but they beat me to it.

And personally I think Anet did a kitten good job of sticking as close to their manifesto as they could whilst still giving players what they wanted. Fractals is pretty much a circular grind – you don’t need Ascended gear unless you want to play the higher levels aka the things that give you Ascended gear.

I have to admit I am slightly worried that one day they’ll also listen to the people who (jokingly I think) said everone should be given a fully geared level 80 of each profession and a full set of legendaries when they create their account. But I think that’s unlikely and I’d take what we’ve got over a lot of companies who seem dead set on giving their fans what they think we should want rather than what we’ve asked for.

They did want to implement it originally though. As things are now, it’s great, I can handle just accessories, rings and amulets and back pieces. However, if they start implementing armor pieces and weapons….. then it’s another thing. Even if they offer cheap upgrade alternatives like the triforge pendant…

Heijincks.9267:

Firstly, the accusations of “abandoning the manifesto” didn’t happen until ascended was announced (which was in November).

because its when they announced MANY new tiers:
Ascended
Legendary
Level cap
infusions

all paired with a new grinding involved…

Thirdly, people on this forum only represents a minority of people who actually plays the game.

Its representative….and is not a so small part

Is the best feedback actually and for sure is more representative than your single word….

People wasn t happy…many good players left….
Some bad players started to play also…
Was a complete débâcle if you take time to check in game and look with your eyes….

Let’s be honest here, if people are having fun with the game, they wouldn’t be on the forums in the first place.

completely false…
When you like something, you participate in discussion to make it betterm that is the point of a forum….

Some people don’t even know a forum exists. On another note, most “main forums” are full of negativity anyway.

Not every forum is full of negativity, and mostly only casual players are those who don t come to the forum…
Actually those players that instead of complaining just leave the game…

So we could say forum feedback comes from people interested in contributing to have a better game.

What may have sparked the initial idea that ANet was going to throw the manifesto out the window? I certainly didn’t remember any of it. When they “did throw it out” there was the initial outrage, but that quieted down quite significantly since.

because most players not liking the move just left…..

Everyone stopped complaining once they got the new ascended shinies,
even the ones who were opposed to it at first

false they delete most posts about it…
I still complain about ascended…despite i have EVERY ascended ring most of wich infused….like many others

And they are really easy to get (easier than exotics), otherwise i wouldn t be here…

Then again, the claim that ANet “threw out the manifesto” is highly debatable.

its not….
Its clear gear trendmill also with lot of grinding involved in some of those….

At the end, you’re right. It doesn’t exactly matter as long as fun ensues. Whether ANet’s been “dropping the ball” however, I only partially agree (there are definitely screw ups). As far as GW2 being a sinking ship, I beg to differ. The ship’s certainly floating — as a matter of fact sailing — just not in the direction some players would like.

imho gw2 decresed popularity is due mostly to management….
Everyhing they do is Always against players…
They nerf professions
nerf drops
boost enemies
removes minor glitchs adding other that makes some content insnely hard and unfun…..
no fix of 99% of most asked issues….
Then absurd statement on non issues (see AoEs for example).

We need content….
Content is not an invisible amulet that force me to grind for 20 days….
Content are skins, dungeons, areas, enemies…..etc etc etc.

For example Fotm is content, ascended items are not.

We need content, I hear you cry. Okay. Since this game has launched with more content than any MMO I can think of historically, and more content is coming I’d say good job Anet.

Content takes time to produce. It doesn’t just mystically appear. Most games six months after launch don’t have as much content as Guild Wars 2 does now. In a year it’ll have a lot more content. Since there’s no monthly fee, go away and come back when there’s more content. Problem solved.

Finally someone to show the reality. I laugh so much when I see player’s reaction :
- Nothing to do —> complain
- Something to do —> complain about the grind

I think people must realise that anything that improves a kind of “evolution” or improvement could be regarded as “grind” according to one’s definition of it.
Still, you don’t have to grind to be competitive in this game.

because its when they announced MANY new tiers:
Ascended
Legendary
Level cap
infusions

all paired with a new grinding involved…

First of all, legendaries were always there. Second, level cap was always there. Third, infusions are part of ascended. Also, the only tiers here you mentioned are ascended and legendary. When did you begin playing?

Its representative….and is not a so small part

Is the best feedback actually and for sure is more representative than your single word….

People wasn t happy…many good players left….
Some bad players started to play also…
Was a complete débâcle if you take time to check in game and look with your eyes….

No. The forums represent a very small fraction of the GW2 community. This is pretty much undisputed. We’d be seeing a LOT MORE posts if that wasn’t the case. As for people leaving, we don’t even know the actual numbers. What we do know though is that the numbers weren’t substantial enough to hurt the game itself.

completely false…
When you like something, you participate in discussion to make it betterm that is the point of a forum….

Again, the forums represent a very small fraction of the GW2 community. You can’t say what’s being said here is conclusive.

Not every forum is full of negativity, and mostly only casual players are those who don t come to the forum…
Actually those players that instead of complaining just leave the game…

So we could say forum feedback comes from people interested in contributing to have a better game.

The forums are probably the worst place for feedback. It’s literally no man’s land in General Discussions. What kind of constructive feedback would come out of this place acknowledged? As for the other part, look in other MMORPG forums. The stuff you see here is docile compared to the flame wars that happen in other forums.

If anything, feedback would come from non-official forums.

because most players not liking the move just left…..

True, but we don’t know their intentions for leaving either.

false they delete most posts about it…
I still complain about ascended…despite i have EVERY ascended ring most of wich infused….like many others

And they are really easy to get (easier than exotics), otherwise i wouldn t be here.

Only you probably plus a very small select minority. We are seeing less and less posts about ascended. You say they delete them? Why did they only delete some of them then? You know if you want to cry conspiracy, you gotta do better than that man.

its not….
Its clear gear trendmill also with lot of grinding involved in some of those….

It is debatable. Look at the manifesto itself. Tell me, where does it prohibited vertical progression? As a matter of fact, it doesn’t even say it prohibits grind, only the type of grind where you kill stuff to level.

imho gw2 decresed popularity is due mostly to management….
Everyhing they do is Always against players…
They nerf professions
nerf drops
boost enemies
removes minor glitchs adding other that makes some content insnely hard and unfun…..
no fix of 99% of most asked issues….
Then absurd statement on non issues (see AoEs for example).

We need content….
Content is not an invisible amulet that force me to grind for 20 days….
Content are skins, dungeons, areas, enemies…..etc etc etc.

For example Fotm is content, ascended items are not.

Really? Alright sure, ANet did screw up in some parts, but it’s nowhere as bad as you say it is. Many people are still having fun, but if you’re not having fun, don’t play. I think you’re just being overly pessimistic.

Nah.
I still haven’t seen a thread asking 0/20 daily fetch quests, yet we got exactly that.

I wouldn’t be disappointed in these changes if they bothered to give any explanation for them.

Let’s make a real comparison.
You buy an internet connection package from a company that touted it as free of content locking, high MB/s connection and easy port forwarding.
After you buy it they change the download/upload rates down, they block sites they said they wouldn’t block, and don’t offer port-forwarding methods.
You call their call center and they refuse to give any explanation.

When you do a major design change, especially one that goes against what you previously claimed, you need to explain it to your customers.
If you care about their trust in your company that is.

Heijincks.9267:

What may have sparked the initial idea that ANet was going to throw the manifesto out the window? I certainly didn’t remember any of it. When they “did throw it out” there was the initial outrage, but that quieted down quite significantly since.

Yes, it did. After all, if you see most of the topic about it getting locked down, without being addressed in any way, at some time you will start to post less. Or just leave.
And the complaints never really stopped – they were just made less visible by a healthy dose of forum censorship and devs visible lack of attention.