Guild Wars 2

fixing the messed up page.

Leo G.4501:

milo.6942:

jumping is largely irrelevant to pvp.

Nope. Not when terrain plays a part in the combat, and it does.

dodge is an interesting addition to the game but i think that it is ultimately a bad one, or at least in its current form it is bad.

They could stand to have more mechanics to counter dodging, but currently it is a dynamic style of mitigation. Some things cannot be blocked, some things can only be evaded, dodges require endurance which is finite, and you cannot dodge while immobilized. They could add mechanics that punish dodging more or alternative expenses for endurance but dodge, in and of itself, is not bad.

speaking of spamming, that one word could sum up the entirety of all combat (pvp and pve) in this game. there is no resource management involved (such as energy) to make you consider when it is best to use skills. there is only the cooldown to think of. if the cooldown is very high then you are reluctant to use the skill until the “right” moment (which can be very difficult to know) and if the cooldown is very low there is no penalty for using it. None.

I’ll just cut you off here.

How experienced in the game are you? I’d consider myself a rabbit in PvP but even I know how shallow you make combat sound. Yeah, you can spam things and build around spamming things to get by, but that’s what separates the rabbits from the dragons. All you have to know is what profession someone is and watch them. If they spam their crap, they’ll spam themselves into a corner and have nothing left to defend themselves from a simple combo.

IMO, resource management in the form of energy or endurance is archaic. In CoH, guess how often it got complained about that you had to manage your endurance? Then they changed it so you have endurance management traits by default instead of choosing them out of a pool of separate powers. Then people kept complaining on top of all that so the game changed more and more to accomodate by making powers cheaper to use, making endurance recover faster, making gear augment costs more, introduce more mechanics to manage it, etc.

That isn’t good balance because the only time resource management like that is good is when it’s so easy to manage it’s not something you manage at all.

Never played GW1. How difficult is it to manage your energy? If it’s hard or requires much of your build to manage it, I bet you people whine about it and I bet you the game was forced to constantly change to the point it isn’t an issue now.

Also, please write in paragraphs….

dodge is the best, most frequent invulnerability in the game. it can completely cancel out a well-prepared burst that would have otherwise killed someone. it is on a very short recharge timer, with vigor and baked-in evades on some skills. as a baseline, dodge dictates that to get significant damage through to an enemy player, you need to overwhelm their dodge + heal capabilities. this leads inevitably to spam. but all of this is from a pvp perspective, in pve i don’t have enough experience to say whakittens impact is.

energy management was a learned skill. like, you as a player became better by learning when to use which of your skills during combat while pacing yourself so you didn’t run out. if you were creating a new build you’d agonize over which skills to take, comparing relative energy costs, recharges, effects, synergy between other skills, and how often you planned to use it. maybe you’d have to drop another skill you liked because the build required too much energy. then, once you were in the game began the real test of player skill and your forethought in build creation. not only this, but your energy was something your enemies could deplete so you might have to use specific weapons that drastically lowered your own energy on purpose so as to “hide” it from your enemies, swapping to your proper set when you needed to cast, and in extreme situations you would have an additional weapon set that basically doubled your base energy but halved your energy regen rate, giving you the ability to temporarily continue to cast. No class in guild wars needed as much skill to play than the monk, and they were the most challenging precisely because their ability to manage their energy was a major determining factor in the success or failure of a team. it was a mechanic that rewarded knowing when to use skills, and good build synergy. it was also another axis devs could balance skills on; not just recharge and damage output. energy was what allowed elite skills to have 2 second recharges and still be balanced, not 120 like we have now.

and no, i’ve never heard anyone complain that energy should be nerfed.

milo.6942:

and no, i’ve never heard anyone complain that energy should be nerfed.

Didn’t say people complained about energy being nerfed, I said people probably complained about mechanics consuming energy to fast. In layman’s terms, it’s people asking the energy COSTS to be nerfed.

From how it was explained in a previous posts, lots of skills and profession abilities determined energy management and likely were added over time and possibly because of complaints about lack of a means to manage energy better. That’s an assumption on my part, but I’d be willing to bet it was a cumulative effort over a course of its updates that created the system you seem to favor.

It’s still archaic to me, and still doesn’t address the point that, in GW1, apparently non-magic professions didn’t need energy to perform well which puts their styles at odds with each other. It also only necessitated the presence of Energy Potions and such consumables.

That all said, a lot can become of learning your skills. If a player can time their dodges and manage their uses, one can trivialize the damage of most NPC enemies to nearly nothing and I’d agrue it takes more skills than your Guild Wars Monk. I’ve seen videos. GW looks easier than City of Heroes on a Defender

A well prepared burst contains CCs. You cannot dodge when CC’d and most builds take at best one (long cooldown) stunbreak. A well prepared burst takes place after the target is low on endurance. If you can simply dodge a burst of damage then it means it wasn’t well prepared at all.

If your point is that burst is weak because of the ability to dodge I am sorry to inform you that burst builds were/are pretty common, especially in the past.

And I still can’t find you on the leaderboards, not even top 700 EU/US. If GW2’s PvP is about spamming, how come you aren’t up there? Didn’t spam hard enough?

Leo G.4501:

milo.6942:

and no, i’ve never heard anyone complain that energy should be nerfed.

Didn’t say people complained about energy being nerfed, I said people probably complained about mechanics consuming energy to fast. In layman’s terms, it’s people asking the energy COSTS to be nerfed.

From how it was explained in a previous posts, lots of skills and profession abilities determined energy management and likely were added over time and possibly because of complaints about lack of a means to manage energy better. That’s an assumption on my part, but I’d be willing to bet it was a cumulative effort over a course of its updates that created the system you seem to favor.

It’s still archaic to me, and still doesn’t address the point that, in GW1, apparently non-magic professions didn’t need energy to perform well which puts their styles at odds with each other. It also only necessitated the presence of Energy Potions and such consumables.

That all said, a lot can become of learning your skills. If a player can time their dodges and manage their uses, one can trivialize the damage of most NPC enemies to nearly nothing and I’d agrue it takes more skills than your Guild Wars Monk. I’ve seen videos. GW looks easier than City of Heroes on a Defender

mate, you make assumptions way too comfortably about a game you never played. non magic professions didn’t need energy? all professions needed energy. some professions like the warrior also used an additional (not a replacement for energy) resource called adrenaline. warrior for instance had half the energy regen of magic classes and generally very reduced max energy. there were still many skills they had which were staples in gameplay that needed energy and they often would need to consider if they had too many energy-based skills in their build. energy potions?? are you nuts? not only did it not exist in the game, but no kind of consumable was ever usable in pvp. And your assertion that dodging in gw2 is more difficult than energy management on a monk is beyond absurd. please stop saying things that you have no idea about. i’ve not made a single comparison with coh because i’ve never played the game, and I don’t pretend to be an expert.

Wolfheart.1938:

A well prepared burst contains CCs. You cannot dodge when CC’d and most builds take at best one (long cooldown) stunbreak. A well prepared burst takes place after the target is low on endurance. If you can simply dodge a burst of damage then it means it wasn’t well prepared at all.

If your point is that burst is weak because of the ability to dodge I am sorry to inform you that burst builds were/are pretty common, especially in the past.

And I still can’t find you on the leaderboards, not even top 700 EU/US. If GW2’s PvP is about spamming, how come you aren’t up there? Didn’t spam hard enough?

i don’t think i said burst was weak. i was trying to say that because dodge can be used so often that burst must generally be available often enough to recover from an important skill that was dodged. dodge makes burst, burst more often.

Ok, now that seems way more reasonable and I actually agree. You certainly try to set up a burst way more often then you did in GW1, because both you and your enemies have lower cooldowns on bursts/countermeasures (dodge mainly).

Still I don’t realize why is that a problem. It may make combat seem spammy I guess?

milo.6942:

mate, you make assumptions way too comfortably about a game you never played. non magic professions didn’t need energy?…

…to perform well. Read what people say and not what you think they said. And from what the wiki says:

“….Some skills do not use Energy. Instead, they use adrenaline…”:“http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Adrenaline”

Anyway again, I’m going by what others are saying and what was mentioned was professions like monk using most of their energy fell at odds with professions like Warriors who built up adrenaline and require the continued acquisition of adrenaline to keep it.

Also, I wasn’t even talking about PvP. This is all with respect to NPCs and PvE. If we were talking about PvP, then you don’t know what you’re talking about. There’s decent amount of depth to PvP to keep non-experts busy for a while but the more skilled you are, the less involved it is to counter less skilled opponents and groups.

Still don’t see the complexity of the monk. Timing skill use is something inherent to this game too. ‘Managing’ energy is only a complexity if it can actually be exhausted and if it can be exhausted, there are bound to be players who complain about being ‘required’ to manage it just to be able to perform skills. I guarantee it. If no complaints exist, then likely your system requires so little management that it’s nearly non-existant to the complexity of play.

Do go on about how the system works though. So far though, you haven’t convinced anyone that such a system is universally sound or would fit this particular game in any way.

Demeth.5816:

Go spam 1 in the candidate trial, We’ll see what’s happen xD
This will probably also apply to the queen’s gauntlet and much more content to be released, since Anet understood they have to had content wich need strategy!

In how many years?

Wolfheart.1938:

Ok, now that seems way more reasonable and I actually agree. You certainly try to set up a burst way more often then you did in GW1, because both you and your enemies have lower cooldowns on bursts/countermeasures (dodge mainly).

Still I don’t realize why is that a problem. It may make combat seem spammy I guess?

dodge is basically an invulnerability with a short recharge and instant activation time available to all classes regardless of spec. i was just speaking generally about it, saying it was probably a poor mechanic in pvp. there’s no counterplay to a dodge, you just have to design the entire game around it. it is naturally very frustrating to set up a spike on a target only to have them bounce away, sometimes not even aware that they just foiled your plans. it is a contributing factor to making the game brainless in my opinion. to what degree exactly i’m not sure, but its effects can be felt in all of the combat system.

to be clear, i am not saying that dodge as a concept is a bad one, but its implementation in this game and its availability funnel the game design into a spammy direction.

Immobilize, daze, fear, knock down, and weakness (endurance limiter) are the counter play to dodge.

More depth for sure could be added, but it is not shallow per say. I would like to see them do more with what they have though, and pull away from stats and more to skills and timing.

Right now it is kind of a hybrid of classic stat based mmo and an action game. So it feels like the weaker of both.

CMF.5461:

Immobilize, daze, fear, knock down, and weakness (endurance limiter) are the counter play to dodge.

More depth for sure could be added, but it is not shallow per say. I would like to see them do more with what they have though, and pull away from stats and more to skills and timing.

Right now it is kind of a hybrid of classic stat based mmo and an action game. So it feels like the weaker of both.

At the same time CC limites build variety towards cleansing and stunbreakers because of the importance of burst mitigation. The very activation if cc cleanses is instant, and this makes gameplay front loaded and less-I’m not sure if this is the right word for it- deliberate and tactical. There’s a trade-off to these skills but quite frankly the trade-off is merely a cooldown or a choice of skills that don’t really offer much of a choice (they’re inferior or gimmicky due to the metagame).

The thing I dislike most about PvP in GW2 is that there’s no concept of risk reward to skills, and this is due to a combination of the lack of resources, move casting, and balancing with cooldowns in mind. It makes combat front-loaded. It’s more of a race than a game of wits. By risk/reward I’m talking more about combat like Street Fighter, Dungeon Fighter Online, and even Starcraft (yes, Starcraft). Every action or decision in those games leaves you vulnerable at least in some form. For DFO and Street FIghter, this is the speed, hitbox, and vulnerability box of each of your attacks. For starcraft, it’s making decisions with the resources and this is done through prediction.

In GW2 you trade blows and dodge occasionally, making sure your DPS sustain is better than your opponent’s DPS sustain. It’s literally a race. Because of the way skills are balanced some classes will always lose to others and so forth. There is some counterplay at a team level, dividing professions among objectives, but most of the action is really a race between professions on nodes. This is why people have been complaining point capture. The fighting going on in nodes may look dynamic, but the objectives and decision making are fairly static.

Leo G.4501:

milo.6942:

mate, you make assumptions way too comfortably about a game you never played. non magic professions didn’t need energy?…

…to perform well. Read what people say and not what you think they said. And from what the wiki says:

“….Some skills do not use Energy. Instead, they use adrenaline…”:“http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Adrenaline”

I understood what you had written. Which was why I included the sentence:

there were still many skills they had which were staples in gameplay that needed energy and they often would need to consider if they had too many energy-based skills in their build.

The relative performance of a warrior with only adrenal skills vs one with some energy skills is not something you can comment on, since you have no knowledge of this subject. But I will tell you anyway: warriors required a few key skills that used energy.

Leo G.4501:

Anyway again, I’m going by what others are saying and what was mentioned was professions like monk using most of their energy fell at odds with professions like Warriors who built up adrenaline and require the continued acquisition of adrenaline to keep it.

I don’t understand what your point is, but I can advise you not to discuss things based on hearsay.

Leo G.4501:

Also, I wasn’t even talking about PvP. This is all with respect to NPCs and PvE. If we were talking about PvP, then you don’t know what you’re talking about. There’s decent amount of depth to PvP to keep non-experts busy for a while but the more skilled you are, the less involved it is to counter less skilled opponents and groups.

There is some depth to pvp. There is knowing what meta builds there are, what they are capable of, and what their standard tactics are. Once you know this you are 50% of the way to the game’s skill ceiling. The next 50% consists of knowing when and where to send your teammates to assault points or retreat. That is the beginning and the end of all pvp in this game. You rarely need to understand what the enemy is doing outside of who it is they are focusing their damage on and watching for when they split off. The combat is designed so that it’s very difficult for a team to support each other because 1) support is so lacking and 2) damages can be so quick there’s no time to save your teammate (even if you could do something).

Leo G.4501:

Still don’t see the complexity of the monk. Timing skill use is something inherent to this game too. ‘Managing’ energy is only a complexity if it can actually be exhausted and if it can be exhausted, there are bound to be players who complain about being ‘required’ to manage it just to be able to perform skills. I guarantee it. If no complaints exist, then likely your system requires so little management that it’s nearly non-existant to the complexity of play.

Do go on about how the system works though. So far though, you haven’t convinced anyone that such a system is universally sound or would fit this particular game in any way.

it’s actually very simple. it’s very easy for a new player to over heal/prot a target, and to use more energy than was necessary. if you run out of energy before the enemy team’s monk runs out of energy, your teammates start dying.

Every enemy requires the same strategy is my problem. I can think of two enemies where you might need to change things up, Dredge immune to blind and Embers immune to burn. That is it. Everything else has something you need to hit V for but nobody has a weakness or a certain strategy you need to apply to beat them.

I was hoping for a different story in Orr, but instead every risen I come across on my Necro, drop my staff skills then auto attack. Make them more susceptible to fire, so when I go into Orr I have to kit my gear out for Burning. This isn’t an ideal solution obviously, but make enemies diverse except the one case where the side effect of skill #5 wont work, but it’ll still deal damage so continue your spam session. Hope I’m making sense.

milo.6942:

I understood what you had written. Which was why I included the sentence:

there were still many skills they had which were staples in gameplay that needed energy and they often would need to consider if they had too many energy-based skills in their build.

The relative performance of a warrior with only adrenal skills vs one with some energy skills is not something you can comment on, since you have no knowledge of this subject. But I will tell you anyway: warriors required a few key skills that used energy.

Apparently you’re ignoring parts of sentences, particularly the part where I said warriors don’t need energy (hint: I DIDN’T SAY THAT!).

I don’t understand what your point is, but I can advise you not to discuss things based on hearsay.

I’m only agreeing with points brought up by people that brought up a relevant point. I base my discussion on knowledge, not hearsay. City of Heroes had an energy based system, which is what I’m basing my knowledge on. Just that someone mentioned Monks and Warriors on Guild Wars bumping heads because a player of that game mentioned it is why it was brought up.

There is some depth to pvp. There is knowing what meta builds there are, what they are capable of, and what their standard tactics are. Once you know this you are 50% of the way to the game’s skill ceiling. The next 50% consists of knowing when and where to send your teammates to assault points or retreat. That is the beginning and the end of all pvp in this game. You rarely need to understand what the enemy is doing outside of who it is they are focusing their damage on and watching for when they split off. The combat is designed so that it’s very difficult for a team to support each other because 1) support is so lacking and 2) damages can be so quick there’s no time to save your teammate (even if you could do something).

AAAAAND again….need I remind you much of what I’m discussing is PvE primarily because that is what the main meat of the thread topic is.

AAAAAAAND again…players that aren’t experts (i.e. they are playing characters, not metas), there is plenty of depth to combat.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAND again…do I have to keep doing this?

it’s actually very simple. it’s very easy for a new player to over heal/prot a target, and to use more energy than was necessary. if you run out of energy before the enemy team’s monk runs out of energy, your teammates start dying.

Right, that’s pretty much every old-style MMO holy trinity game. Played it back when with FFXI, still a horrid time draining mechanic. In that game, you REALLY had to manage MP but that didn’t make things more cerebral, it just shifted concern to how your can regain the energy back ASAP. It’s a gating mechanic hardly different from just cooldowns (except even these game require cooldowns on spells, so…). Also played it with CoH but at least in that game, you didn’t need a healer, monk, debuffs or whatever although you could grab something like that and have an easier time with content. Again, it’s gating content by time constraints measure in endurance recovery.

I know how energy systems work in MMOs, I’m asking about why the mechanic seems more suited to complex combat for you and/or how that relates to making GW2 improve in complexity and depth.

I guess this is just my attempt to round the subject back to relating to GW2.

Leo G.4501:

milo.6942:

I understood what you had written. Which was why I included the sentence:

there were still many skills they had which were staples in gameplay that needed energy and they often would need to consider if they had too many energy-based skills in their build.

The relative performance of a warrior with only adrenal skills vs one with some energy skills is not something you can comment on, since you have no knowledge of this subject. But I will tell you anyway: warriors required a few key skills that used energy.

Apparently you’re ignoring parts of sentences, particularly the part where I said warriors don’t need energy (hint: I DIDN’T SAY THAT!).

I don’t understand what your point is, but I can advise you not to discuss things based on hearsay.

I’m only agreeing with points brought up by people that brought up a relevant point. I base my discussion on knowledge, not hearsay. City of Heroes had an energy based system, which is what I’m basing my knowledge on. Just that someone mentioned Monks and Warriors on Guild Wars bumping heads because a player of that game mentioned it is why it was brought up.

There is some depth to pvp. There is knowing what meta builds there are, what they are capable of, and what their standard tactics are. Once you know this you are 50% of the way to the game’s skill ceiling. The next 50% consists of knowing when and where to send your teammates to assault points or retreat. That is the beginning and the end of all pvp in this game. You rarely need to understand what the enemy is doing outside of who it is they are focusing their damage on and watching for when they split off. The combat is designed so that it’s very difficult for a team to support each other because 1) support is so lacking and 2) damages can be so quick there’s no time to save your teammate (even if you could do something).

AAAAAND again….need I remind you much of what I’m discussing is PvE primarily because that is what the main meat of the thread topic is.

AAAAAAAND again…players that aren’t experts (i.e. they are playing characters, not metas), there is plenty of depth to combat.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAND again…do I have to keep doing this?

it’s actually very simple. it’s very easy for a new player to over heal/prot a target, and to use more energy than was necessary. if you run out of energy before the enemy team’s monk runs out of energy, your teammates start dying.

Right, that’s pretty much every old-style MMO holy trinity game. Played it back when with FFXI, still a horrid time draining mechanic. In that game, you REALLY had to manage MP but that didn’t make things more cerebral, it just shifted concern to how your can regain the energy back ASAP. It’s a gating mechanic hardly different from just cooldowns (except even these game require cooldowns on spells, so…). Also played it with CoH but at least in that game, you didn’t need a healer, monk, debuffs or whatever although you could grab something like that and have an easier time with content. Again, it’s gating content by time constraints measure in endurance recovery.

I know how energy systems work in MMOs, I’m asking about why the mechanic seems more suited to complex combat for you and/or how that relates to making GW2 improve in complexity and depth.

I guess this is just my attempt to round the subject back to relating to GW2.

ok then, in gw1 if you were playing a monk and you didn’t manage your energy correctly, watch the field, pre prot, clear your frontline and watch the enemy mesmers/rangers your team would die. bad play was punished. energy was a way of punishing bad play. so fill in the blank here: In gw2 if I don’t ______ then my team wipes out. We can even use this in pve.

If I don’t DPS my team will take slightly longer DPSing without me.

milo.6942:

so fill in the blank here: In gw2 if I don’t ______ then my team wipes out. We can even use this in pve.

I don’t get it. You want the team to pivot at one point or break? How does that make the game better?

If that’s what you mean, I’ll just say that’d make the game tedious, if anything. Tedious because you would have to find that pivot point for everyone to turn on and if that pivot point was slow and weak, he would cause everyone to fail. Having everyone fail because they didn’t to a specific task is not fun and punishes players who are skilled at what they do.

I could be the greatest melee fighter ever and yet I get killed because the healer lagged? That’s not fun for me at all.

Leo G.4501:

milo.6942:

so fill in the blank here: In gw2 if I don’t ______ then my team wipes out. We can even use this in pve.

I don’t get it. You want the team to pivot at one point or break? How does that make the game better?

If that’s what you mean, I’ll just say that’d make the game tedious, if anything. Tedious because you would have to find that pivot point for everyone to turn on and if that pivot point was slow and weak, he would cause everyone to fail. Having everyone fail because they didn’t to a specific task is not fun and punishes players who are skilled at what they do.

I could be the greatest melee fighter ever and yet I get killed because the healer lagged? That’s not fun for me at all.

it’s not about a single “pivot point”, if every player isn’t pulling their weight do you think you should still win?

let me give you a few more examples to get you started
If I don’t interrupt that shame my team wipes.
If I don’t clear that blind my team wipes.
If I don’t keep this warrior slowed my team wipes.
If I don’t catch this spike in under a second my team wipes.

here is another fun variation you can try
If I don’t knock lock their prot my team can’t get a kill.
If I don’t divert that Restore Condition my team can’t get a kill.
If I don’t Distracting Shot that Word of Healing my team can’t get a kill.
If I don’t coordinate a fake spike on a target to bait their protection monk’s prots to then call a proper spike my team can’t get a kill.
If I don’t remove empathy from my warrior my team can’t get a kill.

If you’re not depending on your teammates then what are they there for?

You can get through the majority of GW2’s content by mashing autoattack and not using your skills strategically. This is definitely true (and that’s how I played my first character!). Most dungeons and overworld stuff falls into this category of “shallow” (whatever that means) combat.

If you think this is true for the entire game, you clearly have never played high level tPvP, solo or coordinated groups in WvW, or high level fractals.

milo.6942:

If you’re not depending on your teammates then what are they there for?

It depends to what extent the dependance leads to.

From my perspective, I like to get things done via being flexible and self-reliant. Waiting for someone to heal me or protect me or needing to rely CC, stun-locks or interrupts to succeed comes with its own drawbacks:

1. It limits group config. Some encounters, suddenly you need melees who can stand against extreme damage so your light-armor stealth bursters have no place. Other encounters, you need high CC to keep foes in place and interrupts to keep foe action limited so much support goes on the bench. Encounters putting a meter stick to your group healing means you have to have it. Bundle it all together and you’re pretty much predetermining exactly what you’re going to do.

2. Repetitive boredom. Sorry, I have minor ADD, but I can’t be arsed watching health bars all kitten ed day…or cycling attack chains over and over…or spamming buffs. It’s cool to do every now and again to fill in a hole, but sometimes I like to swap and mix it up.

3. Punishes generalists. The more specialized your tactics become the less wanted generalists are. Those are the guys that can still do damage, throw out some spot support/healing, snare the enemy for a short time, etc. They are obsolete in your situations because you’re going to have particular team members fulfilling those roles full time.

I’m sure there are other points, but this is all my opinion. I do want tactics, advanced play and combos. I do not want holy trinity. If City of Heroes could let you succeed with all tankers or obliterate with all blasters or mix all offense with no support or roll over everything with all support or generally let you mix and match and play off each other’s strengths, I feel this game could do the same. That is, they can make support and CC and healing more substantial in the game but by no means would success hinge on it. Merely how that success would be achieved.

If I were suggesting ideas, it would likely start with combo fields and finishers as well as how the enemy utilizes them.

Nick.6972:

They should learn from Dark Souls.
Stop catering to braindead people.

1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111

Dark Souls, I never played.

I cited “Monster Hunter” above because it was highly engaging and active combat with a group dynamic potential. Some of the best fun in that game was 3-man hunts at top rank.

Leo G.4501:

milo.6942:

If you’re not depending on your teammates then what are they there for?

It depends to what extent the dependance leads to.

From my perspective, I like to get things done via being flexible and self-reliant. Waiting for someone to heal me or protect me or needing to rely CC, stun-locks or interrupts to succeed comes with its own drawbacks:

1. It limits group config. Some encounters, suddenly you need melees who can stand against extreme damage so your light-armor stealth bursters have no place. Other encounters, you need high CC to keep foes in place and interrupts to keep foe action limited so much support goes on the bench. Encounters putting a meter stick to your group healing means you have to have it. Bundle it all together and you’re pretty much predetermining exactly what you’re going to do.

2. Repetitive boredom. Sorry, I have minor ADD, but I can’t be arsed watching health bars all kitten ed day…or cycling attack chains over and over…or spamming buffs. It’s cool to do every now and again to fill in a hole, but sometimes I like to swap and mix it up.

3. Punishes generalists. The more specialized your tactics become the less wanted generalists are. Those are the guys that can still do damage, throw out some spot support/healing, snare the enemy for a short time, etc. They are obsolete in your situations because you’re going to have particular team members fulfilling those roles full time.

I’m sure there are other points, but this is all my opinion. I do want tactics, advanced play and combos. I do not want holy trinity. If City of Heroes could let you succeed with all tankers or obliterate with all blasters or mix all offense with no support or roll over everything with all support or generally let you mix and match and play off each other’s strengths, I feel this game could do the same. That is, they can make support and CC and healing more substantial in the game but by no means would success hinge on it. Merely how that success would be achieved.

If I were suggesting ideas, it would likely start with combo fields and finishers as well as how the enemy utilizes them.

to summarize my points since i feel i’ve been wandering off topic: combat is boring because it’s not challenging. managing energy presents a challenge. being an important part of a team presents a challenge. relying on your teammates presents a challenge. i mention gw1 so often because it did many things right, and you have consistently misrepresented it. gw1 was a team based game. gw2 is a game where you attack things next to others. also as others have touched on, the way the content is presented is boring and isn’t very challenging.

milo.6942:

Leo G.4501:

milo.6942:

If you’re not depending on your teammates then what are they there for?

It depends to what extent the dependance leads to.

From my perspective, I like to get things done via being flexible and self-reliant. Waiting for someone to heal me or protect me or needing to rely CC, stun-locks or interrupts to succeed comes with its own drawbacks:

1. It limits group config. Some encounters, suddenly you need melees who can stand against extreme damage so your light-armor stealth bursters have no place. Other encounters, you need high CC to keep foes in place and interrupts to keep foe action limited so much support goes on the bench. Encounters putting a meter stick to your group healing means you have to have it. Bundle it all together and you’re pretty much predetermining exactly what you’re going to do.

2. Repetitive boredom. Sorry, I have minor ADD, but I can’t be arsed watching health bars all kitten ed day…or cycling attack chains over and over…or spamming buffs. It’s cool to do every now and again to fill in a hole, but sometimes I like to swap and mix it up.

3. Punishes generalists. The more specialized your tactics become the less wanted generalists are. Those are the guys that can still do damage, throw out some spot support/healing, snare the enemy for a short time, etc. They are obsolete in your situations because you’re going to have particular team members fulfilling those roles full time.

I’m sure there are other points, but this is all my opinion. I do want tactics, advanced play and combos. I do not want holy trinity. If City of Heroes could let you succeed with all tankers or obliterate with all blasters or mix all offense with no support or roll over everything with all support or generally let you mix and match and play off each other’s strengths, I feel this game could do the same. That is, they can make support and CC and healing more substantial in the game but by no means would success hinge on it. Merely how that success would be achieved.

If I were suggesting ideas, it would likely start with combo fields and finishers as well as how the enemy utilizes them.

to summarize my points since i feel i’ve been wandering off topic: combat is boring because it’s not challenging. managing energy presents a challenge. being an important part of a team presents a challenge. relying on your teammates presents a challenge. i mention gw1 so often because it did many things right, and you have consistently misrepresented it. gw1 was a team based game. gw2 is a game where you attack things next to others. also as others have touched on, the way the content is presented is boring and isn’t very challenging.

So you want gw2 to have kind of the same combat mechanics as gw1, or?

Also, if the game has not presented as challenge for you yet, why aren’t you looking for one then?

Mana management forces you to play your UI instead of the game. It’s another layer that makes your game more complex, but not better.

FirstBlood.7359:

Mana management forces you to play your UI instead of the game. It’s another layer that makes your game more complex, but not better.

Mana management adds strategy and weight to skill usage. It prevents combat from being spammable. It allows us to set our own combat pace, and adds consequences to anything we can do.

Yes, it comes at the “cost” of watching your UI more often, but that’s not a good excuse to make a game worse. I’d take a deeper game with (slightly) more emphasis on UI than otherwise.

Messy UIs do remove my enjoyment, but an extra mana bar to an otherwise simple UI won’t ruin any enjoyment – especially when there’s already one in this game.

In the transition from GW1 to GW2, they traded complex skill interactions for active combat. In my opinion the active combat is shallow compared to the old system. Faster paced perhaps and easier to attempt balance, but far less depth.

JK Arrow.7102:

In the transition from GW1 to GW2, they traded complex skill interactions for active combat. In my opinion the active combat is shallow compared to the old system. Faster paced perhaps and easier to attempt balance, but far less depth.

yea and if you look at it what is this “active combat”?

1. cast while moving
2. frequent invulnerability jumps
3. no energy

And that’s it. I don’t really say it in a negative sense, these can be fun things. there are positive and negative aspects i think. for the negative aspects i think it can be summarized as: there is less risk involved

1. you lose the consideration of movement vs casting
2. you can trivialize any attack
3. no consequence for mindless spamming

There is a lot less risk and there is not much reward for playing well.

another issue is there are rarely any interesting combos of skills. most skills simply do damage in different ways. very few “conditionals” such as “if enemy is x then this skill does y” where x is some effect that you or a teammate can set up and y is some very desirable outcome.

FirstBlood.7359:

Mana management forces you to play your UI instead of the game. It’s another layer that makes your game more complex, but not better.

i’ve heard this since before gw2 was even released, and i thought it would be a great thing, but in practice it is actually really negligible. what i mean is, aren’t you already looking at your ui frequently? don’t you need to know when certain skills come off cooldown? don’t you need to see what your health is? thieves have an energy system that you need to look at your ui to manage, how is that any different? it really feels like a false claim and i think this argument that you are “forced to play your ui instead of the game” with an energy system attempts to fix a perceived problem but it really does nothing of the sort. we only lose gameplay depth. if that is what you wanted then it could be a good thing, but don’t misunderstand the situation.

milo.6942:

JK Arrow.7102:

In the transition from GW1 to GW2, they traded complex skill interactions for active combat. In my opinion the active combat is shallow compared to the old system. Faster paced perhaps and easier to attempt balance, but far less depth.

yea and if you look at it what is this “active combat”?

1. cast while moving
2. frequent invulnerability jumps
3. no energy

And that’s it. I don’t really say it in a negative sense, these can be fun things. there are positive and negative aspects i think. for the negative aspects i think it can be summarized as: there is less risk involved

1. you lose the consideration of movement vs casting
2. you can trivialize any attack
3. no consequence for mindless spamming

There is a lot less risk and there is not much reward for playing well.

another issue is there are rarely any interesting combos of skills. most skills simply do damage in different ways. very few “conditionals” such as “if enemy is x then this skill does y” where x is some effect that you or a teammate can set up and y is some very desirable outcome.

This +1 to both
what is gw2 missing is team play for both players and mobs.

FirstBlood.7359:

Mana management forces you to play your UI instead of the game. It’s another layer that makes your game more complex, but not better.

You still play your UI due to stamina, boons, conditions and cooldowns. Not as much as WoW, but moreso than many other games, imo.

milo.6942:

to summarize my points since i feel i’ve been wandering off topic: combat is boring because it’s not challenging.

And distilling your point down to this would save you and everyone many a pages of back and forth.

The other stuff, IMO, is worthless though, primarily because it disregards what the game has to make your point.

If we’d go by the simplified point in that quote, we can probably make a constructive thread out of this mess.

DiogoSilva.7089:

FirstBlood.7359:

Mana management forces you to play your UI instead of the game. It’s another layer that makes your game more complex, but not better.

Mana management adds strategy and weight to skill usage. It prevents combat from being spammable. It allows us to set our own combat pace, and adds consequences to anything we can do.

Yes, it comes at the “cost” of watching your UI more often, but that’s not a good excuse to make a game worse. I’d take a deeper game with (slightly) more emphasis on UI than otherwise.

Messy UIs do remove my enjoyment, but an extra mana bar to an otherwise simple UI won’t ruin any enjoyment – especially when there’s already one in this game.

Disregarding the simplified point from the post you’re responding to, I still disagree.

It doesn’t add anymore strategy to the combat. Regardless, you’ll still have cooldowns. Someone mentioned initiative, it’s balanced there because it isn’t something you have to manage. It manages itself for the most part. If it required strict planning and skill usage and very limited circumstances to regain initiative back, it would actually be strategic. It doesn’t prevent spamming, it encourages passive recovery.

To me, it’s not about watching UI, it’s just shifting the blame from cooldowns to recovery. It’s not inherently better, more strategic, just complex.

Leo G.4501:

It doesn’t add anymore strategy to the combat. Regardless, you’ll still have cooldowns. Someone mentioned initiative, it’s balanced there because it isn’t something you have to manage. It manages itself for the most part. If it required strict planning and skill usage and very limited circumstances to regain initiative back, it would actually be strategic. It doesn’t prevent spamming, it encourages passive recovery.

the skills in gw2 are balanced primarily around cooldowns. if there would be an energy component, then the skills could have reduced cool downs, and appropriate energy costs ranging from cheap to very expensive. so far so good, i don’t think i’ve lost anyone.

where is the strategy? if you have reduced cooldowns you can option to use an expensive skill more frequently. you might do this because you are about to kill an enemy and you need that extra last push to get the job done. this decision has an impact you will feel soon afterwards, where your energy has been drained and you are now less effective, especially if you had misjudged the situation and the enemy is still alive. if there are only the cooldowns, then the decision is simplified to be basically: is this damage skill off cooldown? if yes, use it.

there is still some depth to using cooldown based skills, since you still need to plan utility skills. there would be more strategy involved as well, if damage skills had added benefits from certain conditions being met, but that is not the case.

I agree that a lot of PvE doesn’t require you to play your character’s combat abilities to the fullest. You can spam auto-attack and heals and do pretty well most of the time. But not all of the time. Go to Orr solo and try spamming your auto-attack, dodge and heals and see if you can run around easily laying waste to everything.

My first character in the game was a Guardian, which I still play as my main. When I was new to the game I thought I was awesome because I could tank pretty well. And in time I realized that I actually sucked pretty bad. There was a lot I wasn’t aware of, like the importance of clearing conditions, breaking stuns, and stacking buffs at the appropriate time. I didn’t realize the importance of control and speed. And I didn’t have a clue about combo fields and finishers.

Only after I got into WvW and started to really take the time to perfect the Guardian class did I realize just how terrible I really was at playing a Guardian, even though I felt uber in PvE because I could attack and heal.

So while it seems like combat is shallow – and I do realize why that’s the case – there is actually some depth to it. Its just not always necessary, especially in easy/mild PvE combat.

milo.6942:

the skills in gw2 are balanced primarily around cooldowns. if there would be an energy component, then the skills could have reduced cool downs, and appropriate energy costs ranging from cheap to very expensive. so far so good, i don’t think i’ve lost anyone.

Nope, you’re already lost.

where is the strategy?

It’s in circumventing the costs. It’s ALWAYS in circumventing the costs. And if you can’t, then the costs are either menial so don’t matter very much or players will feel stifled in what they can do and how often they can do it…the same as cooldowns.

Is this rocket science?

if there are only the cooldowns, then the decision is simplified to be basically: is this damage skill off cooldown? if yes, use it.

I think the problem here is, you think adding complexity where it’s not needed adds depth.

If this were a new game that had no backbone to build around yet, you can think and balance how you want. If we’re comparing systems, they don’t really impart different outcomes, just shifting your perspective around.

If we’re trying to add depth to combat, simply impart more drastic/varied use of the skills. Whether they cost time, a replenishing resource or a limited consumable isn’t what makes the combat strategic.

Are we ready to look past that yet? I guess I should just disclaimer the above as my opinion, but it’s not some loopy logic leap here, and no one seems to acknowledge the point that, if skills cost magic points, people will just aim to replenish magic points faster than they can normally consume to offset the ‘strategy’ of moderating its expenditure.

Erasculio.2914:

We often get players who do not want to play GW2 and wish they were playing some other MMO. Those often come here to complain about the GW2 combat system, and to point how ArenaNet needs to change it so it’s exactly like the system in their favourite MMORPG.

OP, what MMO would you rather be playing right now?

Guildwars 1 with Guildwars 2 graphics and populations.

Leo G.4501:

milo.6942:

the skills in gw2 are balanced primarily around cooldowns. if there would be an energy component, then the skills could have reduced cool downs, and appropriate energy costs ranging from cheap to very expensive. so far so good, i don’t think i’ve lost anyone.

Nope, you’re already lost.

where is the strategy?

It’s in circumventing the costs. It’s ALWAYS in circumventing the costs. And if you can’t, then the costs are either menial so don’t matter very much or players will feel stifled in what they can do and how often they can do it…the same as cooldowns.

Is this rocket science?

if there are only the cooldowns, then the decision is simplified to be basically: is this damage skill off cooldown? if yes, use it.

I think the problem here is, you think adding complexity where it’s not needed adds depth.

If this were a new game that had no backbone to build around yet, you can think and balance how you want. If we’re comparing systems, they don’t really impart different outcomes, just shifting your perspective around.

If we’re trying to add depth to combat, simply impart more drastic/varied use of the skills. Whether they cost time, a replenishing resource or a limited consumable isn’t what makes the combat strategic.

Are we ready to look past that yet? I guess I should just disclaimer the above as my opinion, but it’s not some loopy logic leap here, and no one seems to acknowledge the point that, if skills cost magic points, people will just aim to replenish magic points faster than they can normally consume to offset the ‘strategy’ of moderating its expenditure.

man, it’s really obvious you didn’t play gw1
i can’t even have a discussion about energy without you pre-deciding based on other games. for instance in your last paragraph:

Leo G.4501:

if skills cost magic points, people will just aim to replenish magic points faster than they can normally consume to offset the ‘strategy’ of moderating its expenditure.

lol, yes. of course. that’s half the fun of making your builds. trying to see if you can fit in that expensive attack by maybe taking a weaker attack that gives you some energy back. i think you have “standard” mmo ideas about energy since you were convinced gw1 had energy potions (wow, lol). it had a fast rate of regeneration for energy, and then a selection of skills that allowed you to gain energy back in certain situations. example: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Searing_Flames searing flames is an expensive elementalist elite that causes burning and http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Glowing_Gaze glowing gaze gives you energy back if the target is burning. not all builds were like this, such as monk bars that often didn’t have any skills to manage energy, and just relied on the base energy rate of regeneration to pace themselves. but again, it’s difficult to discuss this if you don’t know where i’m coming from.

milo.6942:

man, it’s really obvious you didn’t play gw1
i can’t even have a discussion about energy without you pre-deciding based on other games. for instance in your last paragraph:

Well, if it requires people to play a specific game to ‘get’ then why don’t you just play that game if it has what you want?

And I’m basing my perspective on other games, yes…one of them being Guild Wars 2. Creating builds to recover energy (initiative!) back being part of the fun is hugely subjective. I’m surprised you’re so locked into your perspective that you don’t see that.

I mean, yes, I can understand what you’re talking about and how it could work and how it could be seen as entertaining or strategic to some, but that isn’t universal or even majority. Not only that, but in context of GW2, it’d require a huge change to the core of the game.

I’ll certainly participate in a thread discussing hypotheticals like GW2 but with emphasis on energy, but such a hypothetical isn’t superior to what we have except in your head. The task is transitioning it to a more balanced and action oriented set of rules and playstyles that the game aims for.

Leo G.4501:

milo.6942:

man, it’s really obvious you didn’t play gw1
i can’t even have a discussion about energy without you pre-deciding based on other games. for instance in your last paragraph:

Well, if it requires people to play a specific game to ‘get’ then why don’t you just play that game if it has what you want?

And I’m basing my perspective on other games, yes…one of them being Guild Wars 2. Creating builds to recover energy (initiative!) back being part of the fun is hugely subjective. I’m surprised you’re so locked into your perspective that you don’t see that.

I mean, yes, I can understand what you’re talking about and how it could work and how it could be seen as entertaining or strategic to some, but that isn’t universal or even majority. Not only that, but in context of GW2, it’d require a huge change to the core of the game.

I’ll certainly participate in a thread discussing hypotheticals like GW2 but with emphasis on energy, but such a hypothetical isn’t superior to what we have except in your head. The task is transitioning it to a more balanced and action oriented set of rules and playstyles that the game aims for.

I’m pretty sure the discussion you two were having centered around comparisons between strategic depth GW1 and GW2 specifically. If you don’t know then you shouldn’t assume. You know what they say happens when you assume, right? How is it hypothetical when existing example it provided. You can even go play that example right now, and I encourage it if you’re one to go around and make assumptions without even showing the slightest familiarity with its concepts.

TwoBit.5903:

Leo G.4501:

milo.6942:

man, it’s really obvious you didn’t play gw1
i can’t even have a discussion about energy without you pre-deciding based on other games. for instance in your last paragraph:

Well, if it requires people to play a specific game to ‘get’ then why don’t you just play that game if it has what you want?

And I’m basing my perspective on other games, yes…one of them being Guild Wars 2. Creating builds to recover energy (initiative!) back being part of the fun is hugely subjective. I’m surprised you’re so locked into your perspective that you don’t see that.

I mean, yes, I can understand what you’re talking about and how it could work and how it could be seen as entertaining or strategic to some, but that isn’t universal or even majority. Not only that, but in context of GW2, it’d require a huge change to the core of the game.

I’ll certainly participate in a thread discussing hypotheticals like GW2 but with emphasis on energy, but such a hypothetical isn’t superior to what we have except in your head. The task is transitioning it to a more balanced and action oriented set of rules and playstyles that the game aims for.

I’m pretty sure the discussion you two were having centered around comparisons between strategic depth GW1 and GW2 specifically. If you don’t know then you shouldn’t assume. You know what they say happens when you assume, right? How is it hypothetical when existing example it provided. You can even go play that example right now, and I encourage it if you’re one to go around and make assumptions without even showing the slightest familiarity with its concepts.

Again, you’d have to discount what GW2 does to make that point. It’s a hypothetical because, unlike GW2, GW1 doesn’t emphasize real-time placement, movement and timing in the same way. Or are you saying GW1 lets you move to escape attacks and attack on the move?

But no, my discussion isn’t between GW1 and GW2 because I’ve never played GW1 and don’t plan to. It is and always has been about the strategic depth of the mechanics of cooldown vs mana/cooldown themselves in MMOs and I’d appreciate you not trying to bend the conversation to be otherwise. Not to trash GW1, but I don’t have time to play all the games out there unless it’s some form of combat I can’t get elsewhere.

If you like GW1 mechanics, then play GW1. Stop chasing graphics and just play the game that’s fun. Trying to morph an existing game into your favorite seems selfish anyway, like if I went on a crusade trying to morph GW2 into City of Heroes. I’d prefer a new game prop up that does some of the things CoH did.

Leo G.4501:

TwoBit.5903:

Leo G.4501:

milo.6942:

man, it’s really obvious you didn’t play gw1
i can’t even have a discussion about energy without you pre-deciding based on other games. for instance in your last paragraph:

Well, if it requires people to play a specific game to ‘get’ then why don’t you just play that game if it has what you want?

And I’m basing my perspective on other games, yes…one of them being Guild Wars 2. Creating builds to recover energy (initiative!) back being part of the fun is hugely subjective. I’m surprised you’re so locked into your perspective that you don’t see that.

I mean, yes, I can understand what you’re talking about and how it could work and how it could be seen as entertaining or strategic to some, but that isn’t universal or even majority. Not only that, but in context of GW2, it’d require a huge change to the core of the game.

I’ll certainly participate in a thread discussing hypotheticals like GW2 but with emphasis on energy, but such a hypothetical isn’t superior to what we have except in your head. The task is transitioning it to a more balanced and action oriented set of rules and playstyles that the game aims for.

I’m pretty sure the discussion you two were having centered around comparisons between strategic depth GW1 and GW2 specifically. If you don’t know then you shouldn’t assume. You know what they say happens when you assume, right? How is it hypothetical when existing example it provided. You can even go play that example right now, and I encourage it if you’re one to go around and make assumptions without even showing the slightest familiarity with its concepts.

Again, you’d have to discount what GW2 does to make that point. It’s a hypothetical because, unlike GW2, GW1 doesn’t emphasize real-time placement, movement and timing in the same way. Or are you saying GW1 lets you move to escape attacks and attack on the move?

But no, my discussion isn’t between GW1 and GW2 because I’ve never played GW1 and don’t plan to. It is and always has been about the strategic depth of the mechanics of cooldown vs mana/cooldown themselves in MMOs and I’d appreciate you not trying to bend the conversation to be otherwise. Not to trash GW1, but I don’t have time to play all the games out there unless it’s some form of combat I can’t get elsewhere.

If you like GW1 mechanics, then play GW1. Stop chasing graphics and just play the game that’s fun. Trying to morph an existing game into your favorite seems selfish anyway, like if I went on a crusade trying to morph GW2 into City of Heroes. I’d prefer a new game prop up that does some of the things CoH did.

The concept is best illustrated in the GW1 vs GW2 debate, because that’s the game GW2 is based on. Proximity matters.

Position in real time is key in GW1 due to it’s front-mid-backrow metagame. Really you should play the game before making more comments about it. Positioning is far less important in GW2 because of movecasting and your invincibility toggle. Skill use is less tactical because of instant casting, instant canceling, balance through cooldowns and most importantly of all the lack of resource management.

It’s not a crusade. It’s a debate, and it’s meant for discussion and growth of knowledge through comparison. There are faults even with games that I do like playing, but I still discuss their faults despite knowing that it won’t change anything, for the sole sake of debating. When someone else debates the quality of a game I like, I’m mature enough to respect their own personal narratives and I’m certainly respectful enough be sure that I know what talking about when I present counter arguments.

And I’m perfectly fine with GW2 not changing. I play other games. That doesn’t, however, mean that the game isn’t without faults that are worth discussing. If the developers happen to be listening, all the better.

TwoBit.5903:

That doesn’t, however, mean that the game isn’t without faults that are discussing. If the developers happen to be listening, all the better.

The question is whether they are faults or just different gameplay design. Should the design have been the same as GW1? I can understand GW1 fans wanting it to be so, but that doesn’t mean GW1 objectively had better gameplay. Better in some respects, worse in others.

gurugeorge.9857:

TwoBit.5903:

That doesn’t, however, mean that the game isn’t without faults that are discussing. If the developers happen to be listening, all the better.

The question is whether they are faults or just different gameplay design. Should the design have been the same as GW1? I can understand GW1 fans wanting it to be so, but that doesn’t mean GW1 objectively had better gameplay. Better in some respects, worse in others.

It’s not a simple matter of better or worse, since that rely on a subjective measure of quality. Debates would never go anywhere if that was the case. And just saying it’s better in some respects and worse in others really isn’t saying much at all, since that’s the case for all games.

That said, in terms of concepts like strategy through resource management, or things as minute as the quality of the game’s conveyance of challenge through telegraphing, I think objective arguments can be made about the game’s failings. Several posters and I have even explained why the latter is done poorly in GW2.

TwoBit.5903:

Position in real time is key in GW1 due to it’s front-mid-backrow metagame. Really you should play the game before making more comments about it. Positioning is far less important in GW2 because of movecasting and your invincibility toggle. Skill use is less tactical because of instant casting, instant canceling, balance through cooldowns and most importantly of all the lack of resource management.

You’d have to go into detail then, because just saying something isn’t important in GW2 (when it clearly is) isn’t going to cement your viewpoint as fact.

I’ll leave that point until you decide to elaborate more with circumstances. At this point, I’d be doing your work disproving your claims on movecasting and invincibility ‘toggles’.

It’s not a crusade. It’s a debate, and it’s meant for discussion and growth of knowledge through comparison. There are faults even with games that I do like playing, but I still discuss their faults despite knowing that it won’t change anything, for the sole sake of debating. When someone else debates the quality of a game I like, I’m mature enough to respect their own personal narratives and I’m certainly respectful enough be sure that I know what talking about when I present counter arguments.

And I agree, but again, debate. That word. We’re doing that. Do you have a problem? If not, then we can continue to make points about the quality of its make up.

Now if you want to go one step further and discuss the qualities and ways to improve is another step. You can dictate who has respect for whom however you like, but I tend to side with those that have ideas and not simply complaints. It’s also funny that the important point (that there are plenty of threads with great ideas that could use more attention by the forums or input to get dev attention) seems to be glossed over as if I’m some kind of fanboy defending the game constantly. Nope. Stop generalizing. I wouldn’t be trying to suggest changes or participate in suggested changes if I thought the game didn’t need it or had qualities I wish were different.

Players new to Guild Wars might not know this but Guild Wars 1 had hundreds of available skills per profession, which coupled with a Sub Profession, amounted to dozens upon dozens of dedicated Builds ans ways to play any given profession.

But it did not have them all since day 1, it took a while, several expansions and patches later to get them, so i wouldn’t get all worked up about your idea of a ‘Limited’ skill set, because another interesting bit is that GW1 had only 8 slots for skills when you have 15 in GW2 and they already announced the introduction of new utility skills and the possibility of having all professions have access to All weapons in the game, which would increase the overall skill count for everyone.

Lastly, I think you are referring to Non-Dungeon related PvE content only, when you say you can kill anything only using #1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,Dodge Roll.

They call those trash mobs for a reason, and i don’t see why anyone would compare them with endgame content. I played Final Fantasy XI for 8 years and that game had areas that you literally could not walk around in because the mobs would tear 3 new kitten holes in you before you hit the ground. We had spells like Invisible, Sneak and Deodorize to get around in those areas and i gotta say IT WAS NOT FUN, there’s a saying in that game about it, “Final Fantasy 11, The only game where a lvl 99 player can get his kitten kicked by a bunny”

If you want to be challenged do challenging things Fractals, Dungeons like Arah, WvW or even sPvP. I guarantee you cant get around just pressing 1’s in those.

Leo G.4501:

Snip

I too can play the victim card for the many times valid arguments were brushed aside like I was some sort of troll, but I won’t because that’s irrelevant to points the discussion. “You should just go play the game you’re talking about because obviously love it so much.” “You guys are just on a crusade or something” How many times has this rhetoric been repeated so far? I haven’t kept track. It’s not important to make a point of it in a debate.

Furthermore bringing that up is logcially fallacious as well as dishonest. It’s a debate. You should let the facts of your arguments do the speaking, not how much your sensitive feelings happen to be jostled by someone else’ options. Speaking of which isn’t that just a form of complaining? Anyway, I’m just poking fun. Won’t bother to bring it up again~

Onto positioning. Asking for clarification is a good step, but why not post your own counterpoints first as to why positioning matters instead of complaining about my argument? That’s not going to make me and less right.

Well, whatever. Because of movecasting, instant cast, canceling and “dodging” you don’t necessarily have to pay attention to where you’re attacking from as abilities remove a lot of pressure. Firstly, dodging allows you to instantly cancel the damage of attacks launched your way (if you can see them that is). You can “dodge” while not actually moving outside of them humorously enough because it’s really an invincibility toggle with movement tied to it. That’s why I opt to call it an invincibility toggle. Movecasting removes the inherent tradeoff to attacking where you’re stuck in an animation. Games like street fighter are balanced with fixed animations in mind because there’s an incredible amount of depth to exploiting the vulnerabilities caused by the tradeoffs of each and every attack. When you are subject to that kind of vulnerability without a an easy get out of the way button your relative positioning and timing matters more.

Did you overextend? Will you get away in time? In GW2 the answer is, respectively, no and it probably doesn’t matter. You’re not stuck in an animations and can probably just cancel your attack and run away (while attacking even). You can also simply toggle your invincibility a few times and get get away. The one exception to this would be the Ascalon fractals but only because there’s no feasible way to handle mobs with NPCs and a bunch of reflects (class preference due to a single skill). Also when you pull a bunch of ranged mobs but they attack you down from any position if you aggro them.

In GW1 the front-mid-back row dynamic where each member of your party supports your team based on their relative positioning. It’d take me pages to explain the in depth details, but essentially the front row protects the mid row, which supports, while back row does the DPS (it’s been a looooong while so I could be off). If your front row doesn’t protect your mid or back row, they’ll wipe and so will the front row. If the mid row doesn’t support the front row, it’ll wipe and so will the rest of the party. If the positioning of your characters is off, if one character overextends or one is left vulnerable due to poor positioning you’ll be punished for it.

Edit: spelling

Another strategy for positioning was that you could body block in GW1. If done right it would prevent enemies from getting past the front row and hitting your squishies. I’d love to see this brought back.

TwoBit.5903:

Skill use is less tactical because of instant casting, instant canceling, balance through cooldowns and most importantly of all the lack of resource management.

I disagree. I think balance around cooldowns allows for interesting skills in which the goal is not to use a skill as often as you have energy, or as soon as the cooldown allows it, but rather when the moment is right. Missing the right opportunity is a waste of resources.

For example, take a look at the ranger shortbow skills:

• Skill 1 is actually the main source of damage there. Everything else is situational utility.

• Skill 2 shoots arrows that poison foes. The damage of the poison itself is relatively small, so just spamming it is bad. But poison has the unique property of reducing all heals a character receive… So proper utilization of skill 2 is right before an enemy is going to heal itself. Using it before or after that is wasting this skill’s most important resource.

• Skill 3 is a dodge that doesn’t require endurance, and it also gives swifness. Using it as an attack is a waste – it does less damage than the auto attack. Which means, the goal of this skill is using it when the time is right – when you want to save endurance but you need a dodge. Using it at any other moment is a waste of resources.

• Skill 4 is a cripple, with the pet inflicting bleeding. DPS-wise, considering the cooldown, this skill does less damage than the auto-attack. But the goal of this skill isn’t to do damage, it’s to provide utility by crippling the enemy. If used in a context in which cripple is worthless, it would prevent the player from using the skill in a moment, few seconds later, in which crippling an enemy would actually be useful.

• Skill 5 is an interrupt. Again, it does less damage than auto-attack, so just spamming it blindly actually does less DPS than just auto-attacking. But the main advantage of the skill is interruptin an enemy’s important ability; if used in the wrong time, the skill could be unavailable when it would actually be interesting to interrupt the foe.

In other words, all those skills have no energy cost, but all of them only show their full potential when they are used at the right moment. The resource management there is not using the skills in the wrong time, so they are available when the time is right to use them.

Body blocking in PvP could be implemented, but body blocking tends to be a really calculation-heavy mechanic to add in the game. It also introduces griefing, IMO.

In any case, one issue that irks me is that skills can be cancelled at some point in time. Adding non-cancellable frames might be pretty useful, but it’ll take a lot of changing to skills that it’ll be likely a very, very large rebound.

The issue with dodging, I think, is that in PvE mobs don’t reliably place in counter dodge mechanics – immobilize prevents dodging, but mobs don’t place it in often. In PvP, immobilize is used primarily as a gap closer and not an invulnerability frame shutdown. Also, immobilize tends to be really short in duration, and condition cleans it quickly.

Also, skills have cast times before the effect is done, and aftercast frames. There may be some attacks that have no noticeable precast, but they are few in number and act as clutch skills, or others.

Nitpick on Era: the new ranger SB has all damage normalized between the attacks – ergo SB3 and SB5 have equal damage as the auto.

I feel like using the 20 skills I had in World of Warcraft was a better combat system than GW2’s combat. The only skills I ever use are 1-4 or 5 on rare occasions. In WoW I actually had to memorize what skills did what and when to use them in combat. For example, there were circumstances where I would need to stun a player or monster before it did a skill the paralyzed me.

In Guild Wars 2, I haven’t had to do this at all. I mean, I just spam 1-5 without even thinking about what my skills would do. And holy crap, the dodge system is horrid. Since I don’t have any skills that give me a shield or invulnerability rather quickly, I’m forced to dodge, and I hate dodging from one aoe, just to land in another one.

I’ll end this argument now just by saying that WoW had a better skill system than GW2. Heck, even Guild Wars 1 has more useful skills. The combat does feel immensely boring. Hit 1-5. Dodge. Hit 1-5 again. Dodge. 1-5 again. Oops, out of endurance. Back up out of bosses range. Repeat process.