Guild Wars 2

Since everyone and their dog now has the com dot and it will be very hard to tell who actually has the qualifications once the acc wide com dot patch goes live I propose the following:

1) A small number next to or on top of your com dot in the map UI showing how many wvw skill points you have in total if you have your dot activated for everyone to see.

This way it will at least filter out the complete newbs of WvW who only happen to know how to farm 100 gold and show who is more qualified comparatively in raw points in case multiple commanders take to the field and you don’t know who to follow.

This should be something very easy for the devs to implement and be very informative to players in general.

I think this post makes a good point. Now more then ever since tags will be used more often is seems. (only in WvW)

I think this would scare off new commanders (who are needed) a little too much if it was on the map. However, there was a recent suggestion for having a small symbol corresponding to rank show up next to your name, like the world completion star. Someone even designed the whole set and posted it a while back.

This would allow people near a commander to see their rank (along with everyone else’s), and it would also add a lot of incentive to the rank system generally for everyone else.

CrashTestAuto.9108:

I think this would scare off new commanders (who are needed) a little too much if it was on the map. However, there was a recent suggestion for having a small symbol corresponding to rank show up next to your name, like the world completion star. Someone even designed the whole set and posted it a while back.

This would allow people near a commander to see their rank (along with everyone else’s), and it would also add a lot of incentive to the rank system generally for everyone else.

Having to be near the com to see his rank defeats the purposes of trying to decide which com on the map to follow since that necessitates being in following range of that com dot in the first place.

Also it would not discourage new commanders because sometimes there’s no other option so people won’t care even if they follow a low lvl com.

The problem only arises when there are multiple com dots all up and trying to draw people to them which ends up only splitting up the zerg. In situations like that it’s best to be able know which com is more qualified.

WvW ranks have lost all meaning since EoTM. I meet Gold+ ranked players who can’t even reduce my warrior below 95% HP before getting stomped into the ground, and the occasional bronze that leads to a mutual vengeance-kill.

What you suggest will lead to zergfarmers with little ability beyond using blast finishers, fire fields and autoattacks (being generous here) being thought to be better commanders than those that part time command WvW and part time command PvE.

The only reliable way at present to know if a commander is capable or not is the commander’s name. If you’ve not been in WvW long enough to recognise the competent ones, you’re probably not experienced enough to complain about bad commanding, either.

DeathPanel.8362:

CrashTestAuto.9108:

I think this would scare off new commanders (who are needed) a little too much if it was on the map. However, there was a recent suggestion for having a small symbol corresponding to rank show up next to your name, like the world completion star. Someone even designed the whole set and posted it a while back.

This would allow people near a commander to see their rank (along with everyone else’s), and it would also add a lot of incentive to the rank system generally for everyone else.

Having to be near the com to see his rank defeats the purposes of trying to decide which com on the map to follow since that necessitates being in following range of that com dot in the first place.

Also it would not discourage new commanders because sometimes there’s no other option so people won’t care even if they follow a low lvl com.

The problem only arises when there are multiple com dots all up and trying to draw people to them which ends up only splitting up the zerg. In situations like that it’s best to be able know which com is more qualified.

It’s pointless, it wont show the skill level, anyone that does the “ktrain” in EotM runs in circles to cap kitten without ever fighting and those people have higher ranks than everybody else

DeathPanel.8362:

Having to be near the com to see his rank defeats the purposes of trying to decide which com on the map to follow since that necessitates being in following range of that com dot in the first place.

Also it would not discourage new commanders because sometimes there’s no other option so people won’t care even if they follow a low lvl com.

The problem only arises when there are multiple com dots all up and trying to draw people to them which ends up only splitting up the zerg. In situations like that it’s best to be able know which com is more qualified.

But that’s why I suggest the compromise. If a commander is low rank then, as has been pointed out, this doesn’t necessarily indicate lack of skill. A commander should be judged on how they play, not the number on their tag. If a commander is playing badly, then can advise people to go elsewhere. If they are close enough to see the rank as well, then they can factor that in as an extra piece of information, rather than the only piece of information.

Hayashi.3416:

The only reliable way at present to know if a commander is capable or not is the commander’s name. If you’ve not been in WvW long enough to recognise the competent ones, you’re probably not experienced enough to complain about bad commanding, either.

That would be unreliable because most people don’t follow server side forums of server radio to know who the most popular commanders are. Most people may not even play on same time frame as the best commanders on their servers.

Even if they are zerg farmers in your worst case scenario example it still shows they’ve spent enough time in wvw to at least know the terrain and they would still not have as many ranks as a good commander since a commander gains all the caps and tags a lot of kills as the lead of the zerg.

The most reliable way to at least display experience is from raw wvw rank points. It’s the same idea as job requirements in real life. There may be some more capable high school graduates but a lot of salaried jobs require bachelor or higher for a good reason.

CrashTestAuto.9108:

DeathPanel.8362:

Having to be near the com to see his rank defeats the purposes of trying to decide which com on the map to follow since that necessitates being in following range of that com dot in the first place.

Also it would not discourage new commanders because sometimes there’s no other option so people won’t care even if they follow a low lvl com.

The problem only arises when there are multiple com dots all up and trying to draw people to them which ends up only splitting up the zerg. In situations like that it’s best to be able know which com is more qualified.

But that’s why I suggest the compromise. If a commander is low rank then, as has been pointed out, this doesn’t necessarily indicate lack of skill. A commander should be judged on how they play, not the number on their tag. If a commander is playing badly, then can advise people to go elsewhere. If they are close enough to see the rank as well, then they can factor that in as an extra piece of information, rather than the only piece of information.

The problem is if they have low rank then it indicates they barely have marginal experience in the WvW zones. Ranks only build up as you do things in WvW. There’s very little chance someone with very low rank can lead well since it indicates they barely spent any time in WvW at all and means they have very little knowledge of the terrain and strategies involved.

Of course there may be the rare genius that catches on quicker but those are exceptions and not the rule.

In other words, it may be hard to tell who’s more capable between someone with 1000 wvw points and 200 wvw points since at 200 wvw points there’s sufficient time to know wvw very well and at that point it comes down to skill however there’s a vast difference between someone with 200 wvw points and 20 points since someone with 20 points will have spent very very little time in WvW.

What I am advocating for here is simply transparency. Being able to see the rank of their commander only gives people more information to make the decision of who to follow because currently it’s more of a leap of faith.

Do you even have any idea what Edge of the Mists is?

It’s ENTIRELY different from normal World vs World, and the rank gain there is exponentially faster than normal WvW. The map is also entirely different.

EoTM-only farmers have exactly zero idea of what WvW is like in the same way WvW-only players have exactly zero idea what EoTM is like. We don’t use superior siege, we spam cheap rams on one phase, then recycle the same scorpions for 4 different gates.

If you’re thinking ‘what scorpion’, they’re something that don’t exist at all in WvW.

Rank gain is very slow if in an outmanned world when you can’t cap much, and while most competent commanders are at least a bronze rank or one of the highest tiers of non-material ranks, it’s not a blanket truth. Defender commanders are among the best commanders in the entire game, of which those based in severe-outmanned worlds like Eredon Terrace have abilities exceeding that of mid or high tier worlds by a long shot, even though they can’t cap often.

Do you honestly think someone who lolcaps all the structures with a 40 man zerg has even a quarter of the skill of someone who tries to hold the structure against said zerg with only 10 people?

You don’t need to know the ‘best commanders’ for your world, it’s entirely irrelevant. The people who command in WvW when you are in WvW (the only time that matters) are the same day after day (or at the very least, the same day of the week) since it’s based on their time zone, and people don’t randomly decide to wake up at 3am to command a zerg. You only need know the one or two competent commanders for your world (maybe up to 6 for very highly populated worlds), which takes about 10 minutes in WvW to find out.

Your suggestion will, without question, be used by Gold/Diamond rank EoTM farmers to show off, while disorienting people from the Bronze/Silver rank Commander that’s actually leading the zerg.

Hayashi.3416:

Do you even have any idea what Edge of the Mists is?

It’s ENTIRELY different from normal World vs World, and the rank gain there is exponentially faster than normal WvW. The map is also entirely different.

EoTM-only farmers have exactly zero idea of what WvW is like in the same way WvW-only players have exactly zero idea what EoTM is like. We don’t use superior siege, we spam cheap rams on one phase, then recycle the same scorpions for 4 different gates.

If you’re thinking ‘what scorpion’, they’re something that don’t exist at all in WvW.

Rank gain is very slow if in an outmanned world when you can’t cap much, and while most competent commanders are at least a bronze rank or one of the highest tiers of non-material ranks, it’s not a blanket truth. Defender commanders are among the best commanders in the entire game, of which those based in severe-outmanned worlds like Eredon Terrace have abilities exceeding that of mid or high tier worlds by a long shot, even though they can’t cap often.

Do you honestly think someone who lolcaps all the structures with a 40 man zerg has even a quarter of the skill of someone who tries to hold the structure against said zerg with only 10 people?

You don’t need to know the ‘best commanders’ for your world, it’s entirely irrelevant. The people who command in WvW are the same day after day (or at the very least, the same day of the week) since it’s based on their time zone, and people don’t randomly decide to wake up at 3am to command a zerg. You only need know the one or two competent commanders for your world (maybe up to 6 for very highly populated worlds), which takes about 10 minutes in WvW to find out.

Your suggestion will, without question, be used by Gold/Diamond rank EoTM farmers to show off, while disorienting people from the Bronze/Silver rank Commander that’s actually leading the zerg.

Your argument still doesn’t work since even in the worst case scenario (eotm farmer) someone with a ton of points earned that way will still be a better com than someone with like 10 rank points. (ie someone who’s completely new) This is because they’d still have more knowledge of how various siege machines or zerg battles work than someone completely new.

So even in the worst case scenario my idea would still work as a filter.

You. Must. Play. EoTM. Now. For at least an hour. You’ll understand later.

Until then, you cannot understand what I’m talking about.

You see correctly that the commander system at present is like someone running around with a severed carotid artery, but your proposed measure is the equivalent of cutting the entire head off.

DeathPanel.8362:

Your argument still doesn’t work since even in the worst case scenario (eotm farmer) someone with a ton of points earned that way will still be a better com than someone with like 10 rank points. (ie someone who’s completely new) This is because they’d still have more knowledge of how various siege machines or zerg battles work than someone completely new.

So even in the worst case scenario my idea would still work as a filter.

Not at all. The problem is not comparing a Rank 10 with a Rank 1000, the problem is comparing a Rank 500 (made only in EotM) to a Rank 250 (made only in WvW). The latter will have, on average, a much better understanding on how to command in WvW compared to the former.

Galandil.9641:

DeathPanel.8362:

Your argument still doesn’t work since even in the worst case scenario (eotm farmer) someone with a ton of points earned that way will still be a better com than someone with like 10 rank points. (ie someone who’s completely new) This is because they’d still have more knowledge of how various siege machines or zerg battles work than someone completely new.

So even in the worst case scenario my idea would still work as a filter.

Not at all. The problem is not comparing a Rank 10 with a Rank 1000, the problem is comparing a Rank 500 (made only in EotM) to a Rank 250 (made only in WvW). The latter will have, on average, a much better understanding on how to command in WvW compared to the former.

I have already covered this in my former post. I explicitly stated that it will be hard to tell those ranks apart and then it will at that point come down to skill.

I explicitly stated that even in the worst case scenario under my system it will still give certainty enough to filter out the complete newbs that won’t know what they are doing. (ie rank 10)

Hayashi.3416:

You. Must. Play. EoTM. Now. For at least an hour. You’ll understand later.

Until then, you cannot understand what I’m talking about.

You see correctly that the commander system at present is like someone running around with a severed carotid artery, but your proposed measure is the equivalent of cutting the entire head off.

I do play EOTM. That’s how I lvled my 19th and 20th characters since I got bored of the normal leveling methods.

Like I said before, even in the worst case scenario and an EOTM farmer was commanding he would still be a far better option than someone completely new. (ie very very low rank)

Because at least the EOTM farmer will have some experience with siege, supply capture, and zerg battles whereas the totally new person will have no clue of what to do at all.

DeathPanel.8362:

I have already covered this in my former post. I explicitly stated that it will be hard to tell those ranks apart and then it will at that point come down to skill.

I explicitly stated that even in the worst case scenario under my system it will still give certainty enough to filter out the complete newbs that won’t know what they are doing. (ie rank 10)

And are you telling me that you can’t tell that a newbie/troll comm with rank 10-20 is such by just following him/her for more than 5 minutes? They won’t have knowledge of the maps, siege equip, what to use/when, etc, even the routes that they use will be a fast indicator of his competence (or lack of).

And your proposal will create more unnecessary elitism, in a perverted form: most people will follow brainlessly the highest ranked comm most of the time – and we all know that, apart from very few cases, EotM comms will have higher ranks than regular WvW comms.

So, in order to avoid a newbie comm with rank 50-, you’d create a much bigger problem. And due to the actual state of WvW on most tiers (except T1 and maybe T2), we need new commanders with not-so-high ranks (i.e. 100+) that are willing to learn, with the help of more experienced players (there’s no shame in tagging up and being helped by players that are following the tag).

I suggested it few million times visible pvp/www ranks !!! Give possibility to show off !! PVP players want some blood !!

EotM makes WvW rank irrelevant. It’s not uncommon to see people with 600-800+ rank that hardly ever (or even never have) step foot into real WvW.

I’ll take a commander that I know does WvW a lot over one that has a higher rank just because he’s an EotM groupie any day. If you play WvW often, you should know who the frequent commanders are on your server.

I always give new commanders a chance, but I’ve seen a few in the past that had never WvWed before and were coming from commanding EotM. It was horrible. Absolutely horrible. WvW commanders and EotM commanders are two completely different things; showing ranks is meaningless, since it has no reflection on their actual skill.

I think this is fair. Although wvw levels don’t mean much because of EOTM, it still means a lot more more than merely having 100g and some badges.

In the end, it doesn’t mean much and will generally be ignored, but yes I doubt a rank 15 can be a commander for sure. At the least it weeds out troll accounts. Even someone that just plays EOTM can understand how to lead a train, and stay together to stand in a circle. Also, when there’s no tag around, people are going to default to any tag anyways.

Also, if people wipe, I think they’ll stop following regardless of any titles =p

OP’s suggestion is far better than others that put arbitrary restrictions (ironically often involving a minimum rank) because it stops nobody from commanding if they have a tag but also serves as a tiny disincentive to those that just want to run around with a vanity tag.

DeathPanel.8362:

Since everyone and their dog now has the com dot and it will be very hard to tell who actually has the qualifications once the acc wide com dot patch goes live I propose the following:

1) A small number next to or on top of your com dot in the map UI showing how many wvw skill points you have in total if you have your dot activated for everyone to see.

This way it will at least filter out the complete newbs of WvW who only happen to know how to farm 100 gold and show who is more qualified comparatively in raw points in case multiple commanders take to the field and you don’t know who to follow.

This should be something very easy for the devs to implement and be very informative to players in general.

And this proves what exactly.

That someone who has followed and farmed with a zerg for hundreds and hundreds of levels is a better fit for the role than someone with a handful of levels.. get real.
It proves nothing.
Every commander that tags up (at least for the most part) do it with a view to helping their server in WvW, to help at least try to organise a little better or give the zerg a path to follow.. there are very few other tactics utilised anymore.. add to that the karma train levels from EotM.

The tag and rank has very little meaning in this game as is.

Also, if we go with this type of attitude then why would any player new or old want to even bother tagging if players like you can basically stand around and ridicule them cos of there lack of rank.. everyone starts somewhere.. those new comms seeking experience may just turn out to be the next best comm on your server.. I am guessing your one of those players that only wants players inn group with 7k AP’s cos its the only way you can win thro a dungeon or someone that wont accept you in a group unless your gear checked first off…

I seriously hope the devs place this idea in the relevant trashcan.. the game can do without the ensuing toxicity if it does get given the light of day.

DeathPanel.8362:

The problem is if they have low rank then it indicates they barely have marginal experience in the WvW zones

Or, they are playing on a new account. Or, they spread out their time across multiple accounts. Or, they are a great commander but, have a very busy life and only play’s a couple hours a week. Or, they may even be a returning pin that played a lot before the addition of Ranks. That’s why it’s already been mentioned, Ranks are not an indicator of Commanding ability or WvW knowledge.

Putting a number next to a pin starts to enter the realm of vanity more than a serious addition to WvW tactics. WvW Veterans know whom are the better Commanders, simply follow their lead.

I think the new account thing is definitely an issue, but it should be trivial if one earns the trust of the pugs anyways.

And I wouldn’t say world rank is completely irrelevant, even if it’s been diluted. The big commanders on my server are all relatively high rank (700+, though I guess they say so…) but definitely doubt there are sub-200 rank commanders that are common. Sure, sometimes a pvp pro will come on and beat me down when they only have invader rank, but truth be told I still take more caution when I encounter a Gold ranked engineer that comes straight at my thief I’ll consider that they may know what they’re doing. Still in any case, it’s still more indicative than having 100 extra gold. Exceptions abound everywhere.

It’s sort of like achievement points. You can’t really tell a 12k achievement player is better than a 2000 AP player. But there’s a good chance either is more experienced with a player with only 300 AP. Likewise a level 600 wlvl player may not be better than a level 200 player, but either has a chance to be more experienced than a wlvl 10 player. Note that we refer to experience, not skill.

But the fact is that a reknown commander will have followers regardless of level, and thus it really doesn’t hurt them since word of mouth is far stronger but sometimes you come back for a few months and just want to filter out doritos. I mean, sure a lot of it is just farming, but a experienced farmer who’s willing to have an icon to follow is all you need for various forms of blobbing. Sure, EOTM has many bad players that melt instantly in 1 second, but it’s not like it takes that much more skill to run around training in EBG either.

I like OP’s analogy to a high school diploma and work requirements. In this case, the commander is the applicant, and the followers are the employers. Many jobs require a high school diploma even though often you wouldn’t need to go to high school to have those skills. And at least in this country, having one really means little other than you showed up in school— more than 70% of people who attend will get one so it’s hardly anything special. There’s plenty of incapable people with diplomas, and plenty of very capable people who don’t have one due to circumstances. There’s certainly exceptions to every rule, but any capable person would be able to bypass them regardless. But it’s still used as a starting point to some degree, and instead of having the game decide for you, you can decide for yourself.

Galandil.9641:

DeathPanel.8362:

Your argument still doesn’t work since even in the worst case scenario (eotm farmer) someone with a ton of points earned that way will still be a better com than someone with like 10 rank points. (ie someone who’s completely new) This is because they’d still have more knowledge of how various siege machines or zerg battles work than someone completely new.

So even in the worst case scenario my idea would still work as a filter.

Not at all. The problem is not comparing a Rank 10 with a Rank 1000, the problem is comparing a Rank 500 (made only in EotM) to a Rank 250 (made only in WvW). The latter will have, on average, a much better understanding on how to command in WvW compared to the former.

This might actually be a useful reverse filter. If you were the rank 250 commander, and was discriminated in favor of a rank 500, chances are those potential followers are leeches/don’t know what they’re doing/don’t understand wvw and you might just have lost the rallybots. =p At least nobody sane and has experience in wvw would make a decision solely on that.

Rank is as unimportant as AP in filtering. It’s more for bragging rights. I agree with ArchonWing, people can recognize a good Commander through his/her communication/leadership themselves.

Unfortunately I don’t think there is any viable way to advertise whether a commander is skilled or not, at least in regard to visuals or statistics.

Follow them for a short while and you can decide for yourself whether you like them or not. I take WvW very serious personally and I’m just as serious about who I want to follow. For the most part I roam because there are only a select few commanders I fully trust. If you think they are bad you don’t need to announce it because it’s rude, if other people dislike them they will stop following them. Don’t follow a pin just because there’s one on the map then complain about how they’re driving, pay attention to what they’re doing and why they’re doing it and if you don’t like it stop following, go somewhere else or do something useful like scouting for them.

It would be nice to be able to see whether a commander is good or not without having to follow them first but I don’t know if there’s a reliable way to do that. You could have it so that people rate said commander from 1 to 10 based on their performance but you’re still not going to have everyone agree on a number. The best thing I can suggest is to sacrifice 10 to 20 minutes of your time following the commander to decide whether they’re good or not, or learning how to command yourself. As long as no one is being put down in the process I don’t think it should be a problem deciding whether the current pin is a good leader or not.

ArchonWing.9480:

Sure, sometimes a pvp pro will come on and beat me down when they only have invader rank, but truth be told I still take more caution when I encounter a Gold ranked engineer that comes straight at my thief I’ll consider that they may know what they’re doing. Still in any case, it’s still more indicative than having 100 extra gold. Exceptions abound everywhere.

Agreed :P. Although I find that extremely high ranks are usually zerglings there are certainly exceptions, and when I see gold, platinum or just generally high ranks coming my way I’m a bit more cautious than when I see a bronze rank. So I do agree that the OP’s suggestion for filtering commanders may help to a degree, I still don’t think it would be any different than asking them via whisper what their rank is. You have the knowledge of their time spent in WvW but you still have no idea whether they’re going to drive the zerg off a cliff or dominate the continent.

Sounds like some indicative criterias are needed.

I rather have some respect system implemented where you can only obtain a specific commander icon or color by receiving honors from your peers. That way it’s easier to know that the commander is well known or trusted more than the other ones. WvW level is same as AP, means nothing other than you grinded it out just like gold.

Having an honor/respect system is different as it allows the community to decide and of course there maybe some people who’ll end up making others “vote” for them . However, it’s still a better system I think.

DrNub.1072:

I rather have some respect system implemented where you can only obtain a specific commander icon or color by receiving honors from your peers. That way it’s easier to know that the commander is well known or trusted more than the other ones. WvW level is same as AP, means nothing other than you grinded it out just like gold.

Having an honor/respect system is different as it allows the community to decide and of course there maybe some people who’ll end up making others “vote” for them . However, it’s still a better system I think.

That is a really good idea! +1 or if not that exactly some form of this system.

The number of people who can abuse a popularity vote is much smaller than the number of people who have high world ranks via EoTM with zero command ability. It’s a far better idea.

just decrease eotm wxp for 70% and it will be fair , I think visible ranks are cool , you can finally target somebody and see pvp rank80(maybe unlimited ranks like www) www rank1400 and you know that this guy is experienced player . I noticed that most players who are whining about ap,ranks etc are low lvl guys who think that they are gona be discriminated cause of their low rank . After 1500 hours of cmding I dont care anymore , they dont like my leading , i tag down , we switch ts to guild one and keep leading guild raid without tag .

sry for mining this dead thread but some people said that it doesnt make sense to show www rank on UI because there is ktrain(eotm) and people there get so many ranks for pvd that eotm player will have higher rank then wwwers . Acctually I did small research and people in eotm dont have super high levels , actually true www have few times bigger rank then all pros from eotm . For 18 cmds which I met only 4 had both applied buffs(stren/vita),5 had only one buff and rest didnt have any .Lets dont talk about their cmd quality because it is one big joke but it is also train fault . It is really difficult to lead when only 5 people follow your tag and rest is spaming some range skills,building ac or who knows what they do . Train ranks probably are much much much worse . Most followers dont have any buff and when cmd drops siege they dont have mastery , even basic ones like ram master . It is really pathetic when in 60+ blob there are no people with cata/ram master o_0 probably mortar,canon,balista they have never seen in their wonderful www career .

I still think anet should reduce www xp by 25% in eotm but showing www rank still makes sense . (dont forget about pvp rank we need them too !!) And right now playing in eotm isnt that easy when you are green everything is fine but blue/red sry always outnumbered it looks like roaming vs blob . There isnt much loot ,xp for these sides .

PS commanders who took part in this study where leading for 1h+ I didnt count all 5 min heroes who bought tag and even cant lead ktrain.