Guild Wars 2

I would quit if it went to subscription mode.

I play the game not to pay for a sub. If I were going to pay to play, i’d go back to Dark Age of Camelot.

If with sub devs would add hard content, more dungeons, hardmode, a lot more rewards, a lot more fractals and fractal levels, at least 3 new maps for every pvp game mode and release new expansion at least every 6 months i would instantly sub for a year. And if no… well i am out of here then.

Tigaseye.2047:

Purple Miku.7032:

Too many of the people who play it chose it because they were looking for the best they could for as little money to spend as possible. Obviously not all, but a huge amount of people yes.

This is probably going to sound harsh, but those people are not really customers, then.

They may have been at the start, but if all someone has ever paid towards this game is the initial price of the game, they can’t really be seen as that, anymore.

In fact, if anything, at this point (i.e. three years in), they are probably costing the company more than they initially made it.

So, if they’re not customers, what is their function, from a company’s (cold, hard cash) POV?

Probably the best description is game-filler and given that at least some of them are probably currently making the game seem far worse, for others, rather than better (I’m talking about some of the rude “pro” types, in dungeon speedruns, for example), it could be fairly debatable whether they are worth keeping around, anyway.

You are very wrong. I haven’t spent anything at all besides the initial price of the game and based off of many things, some of which I’m not supposed to share with anyone, they very much want me around. In fact I’ve had numerous devs on my stream in the past and have had it even advertised on their official twitch as community streamer. To them every single person that plays their game is a customer, gems or not.

You don’t have to buy gems in order for them to want you to play their game. It’s optional for a reason and I guarantee you that they want literally all the publicity for their game as possible. The more popular their game is the better off they are.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

If with sub devs would add hard content, more dungeons, hardmode, a lot more rewards, a lot more fractals and fractal levels, at least 3 new maps for every pvp game mode and release new expansion at least every 6 months i would instantly sub for a year. And if no… well i am out of here then.

Which sub mmo have you played that released an expansion every 6 months? None I have played and I have played most.

Eve online. Free expansion 2 times/year.
FF14. 5 decent content patches in 2 years that added a lot of stuff. From mini games to new raids, difficult modes for existing dungeons and a whole new class and a subclass. Not “traditional” expansions but they still add a lot and expand what is already there.

Eve Online, lol. No thanks. Tried it but I already have a job.

Well you asked for sub based mmo with regular expansions.

Adry.7512:

Tigaseye.2047:

Adry.7512:

Tigaseye.2047:

Kartel.2561:

I don’t pay subs for games. Period. Yes I can afford it, but it’s a matter of principal. I don’t like feeling like my account is held hostage and that I have another kitten bill to keep up with. I don’t have a problem spending money on games. I’ve spent hundreds on GW2.

But it’s important that it be my choice and time without feeling like no matter how much money I dump into it, it will never be mine. I buy things; I don’t rent them if I can avoid it. And a game is something I can live without.

Even as attached as I am to this franchise, as soon as it betrays the customer relationship we had, it’s as dead to me as my ex-wife.

Hate to break it to you, but you’re not buying your part of this game, whether you also rent it, or not.

They can end it whenever they like and actually, if you don’t also rent a game, that is potentially more likely to happen than if you do.

It’s not like buying a physical object where, if you pay for it outright, no one can (lawfully) take it away from you.

ok thats all nice and dandy, but in the end, all ur efforts in a sub game are first off repetitive, second of all….not worthwhile since u need to constantly pay monthly for its use. lol sub games r a scam for people with nothing better to do, or for kids who thinks its the best thing ever. would you have paid monthly for kingdom hearts 2 when it came out? no right? its because its not built on a scam, lol sub games only thrive on repetitive copy/paste content to keep players on the hamster wheel. i prefer this game more…in pve and pvp. plus pvp is going to be a focus in the expansion so i am hoping for BIG things.

Why would the non gear-grind premise have to end just because they charged a sub?

Subs don’t have to mean grind, just because in some cases they do.

you either dont seem to grasp the idea and logic behind what i am saying or you are trying to prolong a pointless conversation. i understand what you mean, but all i can say is….consider your options if you plan on making a game, it might end really bad for you.

Well, you appeared to be saying that a sub-based game automatically had to mean a grindy game, as other sub-based games happen to be grindy?

If you didn’t mean that, then you’re right, I have no idea what you were trying to say.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Sizer.5632:

Id be all for it. Once youre more than like, 16 years old, you realize that $15 a month for something you can easily play for 20+ hours a week is nothing compared to other things you can spend your money on.

But since like, half the playerbase is 16 (or acts like they are), it wouldnt work, so i dont think it will ever happen.

Speak for yourself and while you’re at it, keep that condescending tone to yourself as well.

I’m 26 years old and I think 15 euros a month is a lot of money for a video-game.

Could I pay 15 euros a month for GW2? Sure. Would I pay 15 euros a month for GW2? Hell no! GW2 is totally not worth 15 euros a month. I don’t think any game is worth that amount of money.

When you’re no longer 16 (or acting like you are) you’ll realize there are better things to spend your money on than MMORPGs. Once you’re more than 16 years old with an actual life going on you won’t even have time to play video-games for 20+ hours a week (I mean really, 20+ hours a week on video-games is a lot of wasted time, the last time I wasted that much time on video-games was almost 10 years ago).

Not meaning to intrude on your discussion, but I’m not entirely sure where you’re getting €15 from?

Even WoW’s monthly sub is “only” €12.99.

Also, there is no real reason why a sub would have to even be that much.

Blizz seem to make more money than they need to, so a sub could, presumably, be half that and still be more than adequate.

Purple Miku.7032:

Tigaseye.2047:

Purple Miku.7032:

Too many of the people who play it chose it because they were looking for the best they could for as little money to spend as possible. Obviously not all, but a huge amount of people yes.

This is probably going to sound harsh, but those people are not really customers, then.

They may have been at the start, but if all someone has ever paid towards this game is the initial price of the game, they can’t really be seen as that, anymore.

In fact, if anything, at this point (i.e. three years in), they are probably costing the company more than they initially made it.

So, if they’re not customers, what is their function, from a company’s (cold, hard cash) POV?

Probably the best description is game-filler and given that at least some of them are probably currently making the game seem far worse, for others, rather than better (I’m talking about some of the rude “pro” types, in dungeon speedruns, for example), it could be fairly debatable whether they are worth keeping around, anyway.

You are very wrong. I haven’t spent anything at all besides the initial price of the game and based off of many things, some of which I’m not supposed to share with anyone, they very much want me around. In fact I’ve had numerous devs on my stream in the past and have had it even advertised on their official twitch as community streamer. To them every single person that plays their game is a customer, gems or not.

You don’t have to buy gems in order for them to want you to play their game. It’s optional for a reason and I guarantee you that they want literally all the publicity for their game as possible. The more popular their game is the better off they are.

Well, firstly, as I said before, if the devs are nice people they probably don’t care whether you spend money on the game, or not.

Secondly, even if they do care, unless you specifically told them (or they went poking around in your account), how would they even know whether you did, or not?

Thirdly, as a popular streamer, you are providing free advertising (as you say), so you are obviously not a typical case.

Fourthly, as I also already said, devs are not number crunchers – what they care about and what number crunchers do may be different things.

If there aren’t number crunchers, behind the scenes, taking overall statistics of how many players, do or don’t, spend money in the gem shop (and categorising customers accordingly), I would be pretty surprised.

Maybe there aren’t, though and the game just bumbles along with no one counting, or analysing anything?

Would be kind of surprised if that was the case, though, with a game this size.

The OP may as well have asked “What if starfish could speak English?” as my answer to both is the same.

It couldn’t survive so it won’t happen.

I would find something else to play.

would be worst decision ever…….no one has been able to do it since wow. if wow came out today, it wouldn’t be able to do it. right place/right time….never will happen again.

Dante.1763:

Tigaseye.2047:

All I’m saying is that, if you are actually costing a company money, do you think it’s as likely that they will view you as a valued customer, as someone who is making them money?

The devs may still do, if they’re nice people, but will the number crunchers?

FYI i dump about 30$ a month into this game sometimes more. So yes im a customer and i wouldn’t be giving them any money if this game was a subscription. Why you may ask? I dont like feeling like im being forced to play which is exactly what a subscription based game does if you have very little time. If it did ever go sub i know at least 20 people who would leave. Not because they cant afford it, but because they refuse to play sub based games because they dont have time to play very often, those people also dump about 20$ a month into the game for transmutation charges or an outfit here and there.

This game would almost certainly die if it went sub(IMO). The WOW players who migrated here would go back to WOW. The Players who are playing because its not a sub game would leave, probably even go back to GW1 Or find other MMOS. Some of the hardcore players might even leave. One of this games largest selling points is that its not a subscription. MMOS need to have players to be successful, and some of the events and world bosses would be very very hard to impossible to do without a mass number of people. Now i know that you have to argue for ANET here, but this is peoples opinions and its a hypothetical thread that will lose the respect ANET has from me if it ever comes true.

I’m not arguing for ANet – I’m just trying to look at the situation from all angles (including theirs).

I don’t think most of the WoW players would go back to WoW, because of a sub – because I think it’s safe to say that most of them didn’t leave WoW because of the sub.

They might go back to WoW because they don’t view this game as sub-worthy, but that is a separate issue…

Of course, a few may have left WoW due to the sub (I think there was one person on here that said s/he did?), but if subs were the major issue in WoW, there would be far more calls on the WoW forums for them to drop the sub and I think I only ever saw one on the EU forums?

The vast majority of existing WoW players (of the ones who post on the forums, at least) support the sub model and many of them say they would leave if the game went F2P (or P2W, as they view it).

Obviously, there are differing opinions over where F2P becomes P2W, but quite a few people on there even object to cosmetic items in the store; let alone anything that gives an unfair advantage to players, in terms of advancement.

Once again, there are arguments about what constitutes that, as well.

For example, some people object to the paid-for level 90s, while others don’t, as they claim to view the only advancement of note to be the post endgame one.

BTW, if you and your friends dump at least $20 into the game, per month, why would it matter if you did that (or far less than that) via a sub, instead?

I don’t really get it?

No one is forcing you to play that month, just because you, technically, paid for it.

Maybe because I always paid for WoW every 6 months, I never really viewed it on a month by month basis – more as ongoing access over a long period of time.

I guess I would kind of get it, if someone could play so little that they could never really do, or get, anything.

But, if you have that little time (i.e. only a very few minutes a week), surely it’s just as wasteful (if not more so) to buy gemstore stuff for chars you never have time to play?

Tigaseye.2047:

I don’t really get it?

No one is forcing you to play that month, just because you, technically, paid for it.

Maybe because I always paid for WoW every 6 months, I never really viewed it on a month by month basis – more as ongoing access over a long period of time.

I guess I would kind of get it, if someone could play so little that they could never really do, or get, anything.

But, if you have that little time (i.e. only a very few minutes a week), surely it’s just as wasteful (if not more so) to buy gemstore stuff for chars you never have time to play?

I think it’s a certain mindset that I understand, hence why I avoid subscription services:

- if you’re paying for something you feel like you have to use it. If you payed it and didn’t use it, it would be wasteful. Because you feel that pressure to use it, it becomes not enjoyable anymore. You get stuck in a mindset of “am I using it because I like it, or do I feel forced to use it, because I payed for it?”.

Buying things don’t come into this equation though. If I find some pretty new outfit and buy it, it’s not forcing me to log on. It will never be taken away from me and I’m not on some sort of timer to use it.

Sub could work I guess, if all it did was give you a certain amount of gems monthly. But then again China’s GW2 is donig that and it’s far less popular than NA/EU’s GW2.

Tigaseye.2047:

Pandaman.4758:

In a more serious tone, there are adults with full-time “white collar” jobs who aren’t in as financially stable a position as they’d like (for a variety of reasons outside of their control) and have to manage their budgets accordingly; as such limiting how much they spend on entertainment a month is the responsible thing to do and GW2’s cash shop enables people to do just that, to broadly portray it as being immature is pretty kitten disrespectful.

Of course.

The vast majority of white collar workers aren’t in the 1% (or anywhere close to it).

Not leaving me much room to interpret this as anything but a red herring.

Tigaseye.2047:

Not meaning to intrude on your discussion, but I’m not entirely sure where you’re getting €15 from?

Even WoW’s monthly sub is “only” €12.99.

Never played WoW .. but for example Lineage 2, EQ2, AoC, Aion, Rift when they
still had subscriptions, and most of them were around €14.99 i think

All this talk of “principle” is hogwash. I used to feel similarly about sub fees… when I was in high school… $15/mo (for instance) is negligible if you have any kind of income.

That said, I don’t know that I would keep playing. I do play every day, but I have little compelling me to continue. It’s entertainment, and I’m sure I could easily find something to replace it if I found that the cost was not worth what I get from it. But again, that price is less than I spend on lunch most Fridays, so it’s quite acceptable for something I get enjoyment out of on a daily basis.

As for what would happen, though… as many others have said, MMO players tend to be, er… yeah ~16/yo, insecure, highly opinionated… I think many would quit the game just because they think hating sub fees makes them smarter than WoW players.

Anyway, just look at all the MMO’s lately that came out with subs but had to go F2P inside of a year. Now imagine they started F2P and then went sub… sounds disastrous.

A subscription would be the death knell for the game

Games like ESO and ToR had to learn the hard way. Those aren’t bad games. They just aren’t deserving of subs. I play ESO now that it doesn’t have a sub. When I did sub to that game, all I kept thinking was, “Why would I pay $15 a month for this game when GW2 is doing a similar thing sans sub?”

I (and many other players I know) would quit.

I’ll never play a subscription based game (and I’m not alone).

I would quit this game….

I buy to own !

I don’t even like my cell phone bill .. y would I add a video game bill to the list of things I hate

every subscription game I have played.
I get turned off by the feeling of every second that goes by is wasted money
when I stop paying ’MY" character is “NO LONGER MINE”
y would I grind lvls if it will all be taken away when I stop paying !

… not to mention sub games r simply a rip off

and the final nail in the coffin for sub games for me ….. was the release of EOS !

I honestly think GW2 would struggle if it went sub at this point. One its strongest selling points (as it was with GW1) was the “pay once, play forever” stance.

I know that I personally would be very saddened if they opted to go that route. My husband and I would both stop playing if the game swapped over to a monthly payment requirement. We definitely wouldn’t be getting HoT at that point.

Tigaseye.2047:

BTW, if you and your friends dump at least $20 into the game, per month, why would it matter if you did that (or far less than that) via a sub, instead?

I said exactly why in my post. We dont have time to play everyday(Well, i do most weeks, most of my friends dont though) and we refuse to be part of anything that we have to pay for to play. We pay for extra things, or even a slight amount of gold(just for some examples probably poor ones, but in game things our characters can use). We dont and will not pay to see our characters every month.

If GW2 changed to a monthly fee, as much as I love the game, I would stop playing it.

Would it make the game better? I do not think so. In fact I believe that a subscription model would make the game worse, because the devs would not need to try as hard to make a profit.

I’d love for GW2 to be a subscription free game. But I’d definitely subscribe to a model in which you pay like a fixed amount each months, and you get additional benefits like more bank space, inventory space, new types of pets, cosmetics, etc…
Perhaps double daily rewards too? Seems a lot of fun.

Andred.1087:

All this talk of “principle” is hogwash. I used to feel similarly about sub fees… when I was in high school… $15/mo (for instance) is negligible if you have any kind of income.

I have an income and $15/month isn’t negligible.

I work a little over minimum wage (only because I’ve been with the company a few years). I work part time (because retail is part time) and my hours per week is never set in stone.

But I have bills to pay as well as necessities. And those eat into my income. So I only have a small amount of money free for entertainment and gifts and splurges each month.

$15/month isn’t negligible to me. I have to sit and think if it’s worth it to me.

And no game is worth $15/month, especially in addition to an initial purchase price. I jump from game to game too much. The sub fee would make me feel obligated to play each month when GW2 may not be the game for the month. But I also would not know when I would jump to it or from it so I couldn’t really plan my buying a sub around it.

Seera.5916:

Andred.1087:

All this talk of “principle” is hogwash. I used to feel similarly about sub fees… when I was in high school… $15/mo (for instance) is negligible if you have any kind of income.

I have an income and $15/month isn’t negligible.

I work a little over minimum wage (only because I’ve been with the company a few years). I work part time (because retail is part time) and my hours per week is never set in stone.

But I have bills to pay as well as necessities. And those eat into my income. So I only have a small amount of money free for entertainment and gifts and splurges each month.

$15/month isn’t negligible to me. I have to sit and think if it’s worth it to me.

And no game is worth $15/month, especially in addition to an initial purchase price. I jump from game to game too much. The sub fee would make me feel obligated to play each month when GW2 may not be the game for the month. But I also would not know when I would jump to it or from it so I couldn’t really plan my buying a sub around it.

I have a guildie in a similar situation. He works 2 jobs to make ends meet, so not only does he have very little ‘extra’ income, but he also has limited time in which to enjoy his gaming. Another is working his way through college, so while he has an income…15$ a month isn’t something he can splurge on a game (at this point). I had a guildie in GW1 that lives of social security and disability. Most of his income (outside of bills) goes towards medical expenses, and 15$ a month is an expense he can’t afford. (Hell, he couldn’t even afford to buy the game, it was given to him as a gift as something to do in his unending free time).

A lot of people fail to stop and think about the fact that there are people that play that don’t have a lot of extra money laying around. People that, due to their situation, could’t really afford that $15 a month if the game had a subscription fee. There is no reason why these people shouldn’t be able to play a game they enjoy and take a break from the misery of real life. They have enough to worry about, they don’t need additional stress over something so trivial.

Pandaman.4758:

Tigaseye.2047:

Pandaman.4758:

In a more serious tone, there are adults with full-time “white collar” jobs who aren’t in as financially stable a position as they’d like (for a variety of reasons outside of their control) and have to manage their budgets accordingly; as such limiting how much they spend on entertainment a month is the responsible thing to do and GW2’s cash shop enables people to do just that, to broadly portray it as being immature is pretty kitten disrespectful.

Of course.

The vast majority of white collar workers aren’t in the 1% (or anywhere close to it).

Not leaving me much room to interpret this as anything but a red herring.

It wasn’t a red herring – it was referring back to the point I made that if the (abundant) wealth in the world was shared a little more equally, none of us would have to worry about a few dollars on a game sub, or two.

You are aware that 1% of the population of the world owns the vast majority of its wealth and that the gap between the rich and poor (and middle class!) is bigger than it has ever been, right?

If not, you really should be – it is pretty much common knowledge, at this point.

The answer is simple – That would never happen.
And even if it had been, it would have turned B2P or F2P

Nearly every single MMO, that seemed like ‘’big projects’’ or one of those ‘’We could be like Blizzard’’, had eventually went B2P or F2P

I am not fully against subscriptions. But one thing that bugs me is the following: IF I pay a subscription fee, I always have the feel to play it. And if I stop before the sub ends, I think it was a waste. Hence I rethink twice until I re-sub a game like WoW and that’s the shining points of MMOs without subs.

I don’t think they need the income from subs, but in case they do i see easy enough to do an optional subs of 10$ that gives you the amount of 15$ in gems every month that is around 150 gems if i’m not wrong.
Wouldn’t need to change the prices in the gem store because it wouldn’t change much. And if you buy a lot of skins from TP maybe you would be willing to for the discounts.

Problem solved.

Fernling.1729:

WoW, FF14 and SWTOR are all successful.
It just so happens that 3/4 of the top 5 most popular mmorpgs have a subscription.

The thing that helps SWTOR stay popular, is that even if you play F2P, the minute you start spending a bit of cash on the CC (Cash Cartel = Gem store), your account goes up to a “preferred” subscription status.
And if you wanted to pay for a reoccurring subscription, you could even pay by text, instead of having to give your card details out. Their in-game store also has a wide range of stuff to keep players interested in purchasing items.

That being said, I think it’s way too far-gone for GW2 to switch over, and I don’t think I’d play as much if that were the case. If they had a wider variety on their gem store and brought back some extra old items and skins, they’d get more funds. That, and if they’d put out some old content while we wait for HoT, the game would be better for it.

The thing i always hate about sub fee games is they make you feel like you need to log in to get your moneys worth for the rest of the month. If i dont feel like playing for a few days im getting less gametime for my money. With GW2 i dont have that pressure.

And funnily enough ive probably paid the equivalent of being subbed since release for gems. But ive never felt forced to log in and didnt feel like i was missing out when i took a few months break. Im also really glad there is no system like in ArcheAge where you pay sub for bonus benefits. Those perks arent necessary but they sure as hell feel like they are.

No sub needed if someone likes the game support them with the shop i already payed money to support them cause i like the game since release, with some breaks.

Without Sub you have less player but no real advantage cause less player less income. Even if you do not want to pay there must be people who buy Gems with Gold so it seems to be a Win Win Win Situation at the moment.

If this game was still, or had expanded on the spirit of, what they promised in that vaunted manifesto of theirs, I’d pay a sub in a heartbeat. As it turned out, we now sit with a game that tries way too hard to pander to absolutely everybody and their kitten in an effort to entice them to spend more money on gems. I don’t begrudge them the right to make money in an ongoing way, but did they have to lose the game’s soul in order to do so?

With the amount of fun-breaking bugs this game has, they would commit game suicide anyway. Most of us barely tolerate it because deep down we expect to get what we pay for. Most of us pay nothing…