Guild Wars 2

IndigoSundown.5419:

Fernling.1729:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Fernling.1729:

IndigoSundown.5419:

There is only one successful theme park MMO with a sub. I don’t see that changing.

WoW, FF14 and SWTOR are all successful. Runescape is also very successful, although some would say it’s a sandbox, I don’t know which it is.

It just so happens that 3/4 of the top 5 most popular mmorpgs have a subscription.

ToR is freemium, FF14 has not passed the test of time. Runescape, sandpark?

Maybe you should have specified all the conditions in your original post. You started off with themepark mmos with a sub.
FF14 is going on two years at this point with major success the entire time. You literally said “There is only one successful theme park MMO with a sub”. Sorry, SWTOR has a sub. If you want to shift the goal posts that’s okay too.

Honestly, I had forgotten FFXiV. It was easy to do. Apologies for that, though I still think that it is in for a rude awakening once the development content not finished by launch has run out.

As to ToR, it went F2P freemium. So did STO, CO, and AOC, among others. You want to count them, too? There’s one game that is used as the benchmark for theme park success. FF14 has not come close, nor has STO. Still, to clarify, if GW2 were to go sub instead of B2P, they would not come close to even the qualified “success” of the freemium games.

what? the 14 has had content increases every 2 months since release, they added a new class, and they are releasing an expansion in june. They have added more content to FFXIV ARR after release than gw2 has in since it released.

Not sure how GW2 would do if they made such a drastic change. They’d be shooting themselves in the foot, as many people are drawn to GW2 because it is subscription free, but maybe they could survive despite the backlash?

Regardless…
That would be one move I could not tolerate. I’d uninstall as soon as they made the announcement — as the subscription free aspect of the game is paramount to me.

Sizer.5632:

Id be all for it. Once youre more than like, 16 years old, you realize that $15 a month for something you can easily play for 20+ hours a week is nothing compared to other things you can spend your money on.

But since like, half the playerbase is 16 (or acts like they are), it wouldnt work, so i dont think it will ever happen.

it adds up. Or do you normally only play one game at a time and very seriously? Especially when you have other responsibilities on top of it.

Sizer.5632:

Id be all for it. Once youre more than like, 16 years old, you realize that $15 a month for something you can easily play for 20+ hours a week is nothing compared to other things you can spend your money on.

But since like, half the playerbase is 16 (or acts like they are), it wouldnt work, so i dont think it will ever happen.

Honestly, I just wouldn’t do it again anytime soon based off of my experience with SWTOR. I held onto my sub there with the expectation that the game was headed in a better direction with more of the story-based content to see a return. That’s what they hinted at, yet it was never delivered. The devs are aloof and unresponsive, the engine is horrid and can never be optimized with the current staff, and every element of the game aside from the cash shop is lacking, though it has issues with the gear because of the engine.

Perhaps I would sub again if I felt that the game I’m subscribing to was constantly delivering on that dollar value. I’m looking forward to seeing what HoT brings in terms of giving more opportunities to enjoy the game without resource and gold grind being the major time killers. A game would have to amaze me pretty thoroughly to subscribe at this point though.

MrRuin.9740:

I would leave and I believe a huge portion of the population would as well.
A subscription model is not the current standard and not many games can maintain one anymore, as is evidenced by the games that have been trying to, but going to a free-to-play model within a year, or less. If big names like Star Wars and Elder Scrolls can’t do it, and the juggernaut WoW showing dropping numbers , there’s not much hope for Guild Wars to do it either.

WoW isn’t losing players because of the sub model.

In fact, when asked, the vast majority appear to support it.

If it’s losing players, ATM (IDK, I haven’t checked), it is because the latest xpac is pretty underwhelming (IMO).

Poor new char models (in many cases), repetitive and fairly dull garrisons, too-easy LFR with poorer rewards than previously (despite the fact that most people don’t real raid), too much fire and brimstone, Orcs, Orcs and more Orcs.

…oh and did I mention Orcs?

(and its engine is obviously ageing, at this point)

It’s still, fundamentally, a very solid, very well made game, though.

Which is more than you can say for some games…

I would support a sub in any well made game I wanted to play regularly – in fact it’s my preferred option – but “well made” is the operative term here.

I wouldn’t be happy to pay a sub and then still be left with design flaws that encourage cheesy gameplay, class and range weap imbalance, skill and traitline obligatory choices and red herrings etc..

All that seriously needs tidying up, either way, but a sub might help justify that tidying process.

ATM, I believe the game has around 1/3 of the players WoW has(?) and yet, still has all these issues and makes a lot less than 1/3 of the money.

So, some people are obviously just buying the game and then playing for free from then on.

Even though it probably still makes more than enough money, in all honesty.

Maybe it could go for a lower sub price than WoW?

Assuming WoW is charging more than it, strictly speaking, needs to.

ETA: To the rather sad person who just came on TS3 and played a bunch of stuff: Really sorry that you don’t agree and apparently can’t afford to pay a sub, but games need to be made to be fair and financed somehow.

With, or without, rude people like you.

ETA2: If you have something to say, come and say it politely, on here, like a civilised human being.

I don’t bite (much).

Sizer.5632:

Id be all for it. Once youre more than like, 16 years old, you realize that $15 a month for something you can easily play for 20+ hours a week is nothing compared to other things you can spend your money on.

But since like, half the playerbase is 16 (or acts like they are), it wouldnt work, so i dont think it will ever happen.

lulwut?

People unwilling to HAVE to pay $15 a month for a game whose endgame is collecting equipment skins has a lot more to do with the fact that GW2 isn’t designed for a sub fee and nothing to do with “maturity”.

Sizer.5632:

Id be all for it. Once youre more than like, 16 years old, you realize that $15 a month for something you can easily play for 20+ hours a week is nothing compared to other things you can spend your money on.

But since like, half the playerbase is 16 (or acts like they are), it wouldnt work, so i dont think it will ever happen.

And once you’re more than 22~24 years old and paying off your student loans, bills, taxes, providing for the filthy parasi-I mean, adorable baby, having one less monthly bill is a welcome thing.

Unless you’re clinging to a bachelor lifestyle or suffering from a sudden abundance of wealth, that is.

Kantos.1730:

First of all, you stated a myth that subscriptions equal more money for the developer and thus better content for the players. This is not true.

I think the point (from my POV, anyway) is that a sub puts the playerbase in a stronger position to require that the game is maintained and designed/redesigned to a higher standard.

As a sub-payer, your position as an ongoing customer becomes far more defined.

Also, the company can more easily financially justify future development costs, as they have a solid figure to work from.

As opposed to, without a sub, where they would hope they would make an average of x amount per player, per month (from gem purchases), but can never guarantee it.

Pandaman.4758:

Sizer.5632:

Id be all for it. Once youre more than like, 16 years old, you realize that $15 a month for something you can easily play for 20+ hours a week is nothing compared to other things you can spend your money on.

But since like, half the playerbase is 16 (or acts like they are), it wouldnt work, so i dont think it will ever happen.

And once you’re more than 22~24 years old and paying off your student loans, bills, taxes, providing for the filthy parasi-I mean, adorable baby, having one less monthly bill is a welcome thing.

Unless you’re clinging to a bachelor lifestyle or suffering from a sudden abundance of wealth, that is.

I think these are social and political issues that extend far beyond a sub/no sub debate.

Why exactly are you and your family being made to struggle to survive, when 1% of the population own almost all the money in the world?

Tigaseye.2047:

Pandaman.4758:

Sizer.5632:

Id be all for it. Once youre more than like, 16 years old, you realize that $15 a month for something you can easily play for 20+ hours a week is nothing compared to other things you can spend your money on.

But since like, half the playerbase is 16 (or acts like they are), it wouldnt work, so i dont think it will ever happen.

And once you’re more than 22~24 years old and paying off your student loans, bills, taxes, providing for the filthy parasi-I mean, adorable baby, having one less monthly bill is a welcome thing.

Unless you’re clinging to a bachelor lifestyle or suffering from a sudden abundance of wealth, that is.

I think these are social and political issues that extend far beyond a sub/no sub debate.

Why exactly are you and your family being made to struggle to survive, when 1% of the population own almost all the money in the world?

You’re not so much derailing the thread as launching the whole train into space…

I am happy to spend $15 a month on a subscription for a game for which I can justify that ongoing fee. Its less than the cost of a trip to the movie theater. Less than what I spend on coffee over the course of three days. Unfortunately I don’t think that I could justify spending money on GW2 as it stands right now.

Substance E.4852:

Tigaseye.2047:

Pandaman.4758:

Sizer.5632:

Id be all for it. Once youre more than like, 16 years old, you realize that $15 a month for something you can easily play for 20+ hours a week is nothing compared to other things you can spend your money on.

But since like, half the playerbase is 16 (or acts like they are), it wouldnt work, so i dont think it will ever happen.

And once you’re more than 22~24 years old and paying off your student loans, bills, taxes, providing for the filthy parasi-I mean, adorable baby, having one less monthly bill is a welcome thing.

Unless you’re clinging to a bachelor lifestyle or suffering from a sudden abundance of wealth, that is.

I think these are social and political issues that extend far beyond a sub/no sub debate.

Why exactly are you and your family being made to struggle to survive, when 1% of the population own almost all the money in the world?

You’re not so much derailing the thread as launching the whole train into space…

No, I’m just pointing at the gigantic elephant in the room.

No one would have to care about a $10 sub, either way, if things were fairer.

i would quit in a heartbeat. the only reason i play this game its because its so casual and i can ALWAYS pick up where i left off. i never bothered playing WoW for very long, i got super bored of it and the only reason people P2P that game its because the game keeps u in a grindfest…..and even WoW has lost a lot of popularity….once other games (like gw2) started coming out. a lot of WoW players are actually from other countries….a lot of em. anyways, nowadays sub games never make it far, the only reason WoW did, was cause it got super super super lucky at a good time when MMORPGs were horrible (at one point runescape and WoW were top games….LOOOL).

I don’t pay subs for games. Period. Yes I can afford it, but it’s a matter of principal. I don’t like feeling like my account is held hostage and that I have another kitten bill to keep up with. I don’t have a problem spending money on games. I’ve spent hundreds on GW2.

But it’s important that it be my choice and time without feeling like no matter how much money I dump into it, it will never be mine. I buy things; I don’t rent them if I can avoid it. And a game is something I can live without.

Even as attached as I am to this franchise, as soon as it betrays the customer relationship we had, it’s as dead to me as my ex-wife.

Kartel.2561:

I don’t pay subs for games. Period. Yes I can afford it, but it’s a matter of principal. I don’t like feeling like my account is held hostage and that I have another kitten bill to keep up with. I don’t have a problem spending money on games. I’ve spent hundreds on GW2.

But it’s important that it be my choice and time without feeling like my account is being held hostage, like no matter how much money I dump into it, it will never be mine. I buy things,; I don’t rent them if I can avoid it. And a game is something I can live without.

Even as attached as I am to this franchise, as soon as it betrays the customer relationship we had, it’s as dead to me as my ex-wife.

well said.

Adry.7512:

Kartel.2561:

I don’t pay subs for games. Period. Yes I can afford it, but it’s a matter of principal. I don’t like feeling like my account is held hostage and that I have another kitten bill to keep up with. I don’t have a problem spending money on games. I’ve spent hundreds on GW2.

But it’s important that it be my choice and time without feeling like my account is being held hostage, like no matter how much money I dump into it, it will never be mine. I buy things,; I don’t rent them if I can avoid it. And a game is something I can live without.

Even as attached as I am to this franchise, as soon as it betrays the customer relationship we had, it’s as dead to me as my ex-wife.

well said.

Agreed.

All too many people dismiss those who don’t want to pay a sub fee as being cheap or unwilling to pay for what they receive. The reality is that some are just that but some portion of those opposed to sub fees just don’t want to feel as if they are renting their entertainment. They want to buy their games and are willing to spend the money to do so.

Kartel.2561:

I don’t pay subs for games. Period. Yes I can afford it, but it’s a matter of principal. I don’t like feeling like my account is held hostage and that I have another kitten bill to keep up with. I don’t have a problem spending money on games. I’ve spent hundreds on GW2.

But it’s important that it be my choice and time without feeling like no matter how much money I dump into it, it will never be mine. I buy things; I don’t rent them if I can avoid it. And a game is something I can live without.

Even as attached as I am to this franchise, as soon as it betrays the customer relationship we had, it’s as dead to me as my ex-wife.

Hate to break it to you, but you’re not buying your part of this game, whether you also rent it, or not.

They can end it whenever they like and actually, if you don’t also rent a game, that is potentially more likely to happen than if you do.

It’s not like buying a physical object where, if you pay for it outright, no one can (lawfully) take it away from you.

Tigaseye.2047:

Kartel.2561:

I don’t pay subs for games. Period. Yes I can afford it, but it’s a matter of principal. I don’t like feeling like my account is held hostage and that I have another kitten bill to keep up with. I don’t have a problem spending money on games. I’ve spent hundreds on GW2.

But it’s important that it be my choice and time without feeling like no matter how much money I dump into it, it will never be mine. I buy things; I don’t rent them if I can avoid it. And a game is something I can live without.

Even as attached as I am to this franchise, as soon as it betrays the customer relationship we had, it’s as dead to me as my ex-wife.

Hate to break it to you, but you’re not buying your part of this game, whether you also rent it, or not.

They can end it whenever they like and actually, if you don’t also rent a game, that is potentially more likely to happen than if you do.

It’s not like buying a physical object where, if you pay for it outright, no one can (lawfully) take it away from you.

ok thats all nice and dandy, but in the end, all ur efforts in a sub game are first off repetitive, second of all….not worthwhile since u need to constantly pay monthly for its use. lol sub games r a scam for people with nothing better to do, or for kids who thinks its the best thing ever. would you have paid monthly for kingdom hearts 2 when it came out? no right? its because its not built on a scam, lol sub games only thrive on repetitive copy/paste content to keep players on the hamster wheel. i prefer this game more…in pve and pvp. plus pvp is going to be a focus in the expansion so i am hoping for BIG things.

Gibson.4036:

It’s a one way street. Sub games can go F2P, but it’d be death to try and do the reverse.

This is very much true.

If this was going to ever be subscription, it would have had to be at the start. You can’t change it now or the game will die. Too many of the people who play it chose it because they were looking for the best they could for as little money to spend as possible. Obviously not all, but a huge amount of people yes.

Adry.7512:

Tigaseye.2047:

Kartel.2561:

I don’t pay subs for games. Period. Yes I can afford it, but it’s a matter of principal. I don’t like feeling like my account is held hostage and that I have another kitten bill to keep up with. I don’t have a problem spending money on games. I’ve spent hundreds on GW2.

But it’s important that it be my choice and time without feeling like no matter how much money I dump into it, it will never be mine. I buy things; I don’t rent them if I can avoid it. And a game is something I can live without.

Even as attached as I am to this franchise, as soon as it betrays the customer relationship we had, it’s as dead to me as my ex-wife.

Hate to break it to you, but you’re not buying your part of this game, whether you also rent it, or not.

They can end it whenever they like and actually, if you don’t also rent a game, that is potentially more likely to happen than if you do.

It’s not like buying a physical object where, if you pay for it outright, no one can (lawfully) take it away from you.

ok thats all nice and dandy, but in the end, all ur efforts in a sub game are first off repetitive, second of all….not worthwhile since u need to constantly pay monthly for its use. lol sub games r a scam for people with nothing better to do, or for kids who thinks its the best thing ever. would you have paid monthly for kingdom hearts 2 when it came out? no right? its because its not built on a scam, lol sub games only thrive on repetitive copy/paste content to keep players on the hamster wheel. i prefer this game more…in pve and pvp. plus pvp is going to be a focus in the expansion so i am hoping for BIG things.

Why would the non gear-grind premise have to end just because they charged a sub?

Subs don’t have to mean grind, just because in some cases they do.

Purple Miku.7032:

Too many of the people who play it chose it because they were looking for the best they could for as little money to spend as possible. Obviously not all, but a huge amount of people yes.

This is probably going to sound harsh, but those people are not really customers, then.

They may have been at the start, but if all someone has ever paid towards this game is the initial price of the game, they can’t really be seen as that, anymore.

In fact, if anything, at this point (i.e. three years in), they are probably costing the company more than they initially made it.

So, if they’re not customers, what is their function, from a company’s (cold, hard cash) POV?

Probably the best description is game-filler and given that at least some of them are probably currently making the game seem far worse, for others, rather than better (I’m talking about some of the rude “pro” types, in dungeon speedruns, for example), it could be fairly debatable whether they are worth keeping around, anyway.

Tigaseye.2047:

I think the point (from my POV, anyway) is that a sub puts the playerbase in a stronger position to require that the game is maintained and designed/redesigned to a higher standard.

As a sub-payer, your position as an ongoing customer becomes far more defined.

Also, the company can more easily financially justify future development costs, as they have a solid figure to work from.

As opposed to, without a sub, where they would hope they would make an average of x amount per player, per month (from gem purchases), but can never guarantee it.

Developers have no guarantees about their revenue target with a sub, either. They’re doing essentially the same thing, basing next month’s revenue predictions on prior months. What they do have is less volatility. While that is an advantage, it only matters if there are enough subs to support the game. At worst, they cannot meet their revenue targets at all. Lots of games do better as F2P/Fremium than they did as sub games.

Game consumers have two recourses with regard to “requiring that the game is designed/maintained” to their satisfaction. They can vote with their wallets, and kitten about things on forums. These options are available to both sub game and store game players. The sub game players have no more leverage on the developer than the store game players.

My position on subs is that I will no longer rent games. If a company wants to rent their game rather than selling it, I’m not interested. My history suggests this is a good policy for me. I own three B2P games (GW, GW2 and TSW). I got 3+ years out of GW, 1.5 or so (excluding breaks) out of GW2 and several months (ongoing) out of TSW (which I paid a whole $10 for). By contrast, WoW kept me for 11 months, AoC for 3, WHO for 2 and Rift for 4.

I’m not a proponent of volunteering to throw money at game developers in the hope they’ll make a quality product. I’d rather the horse were before the cart, and the developer produced a quality product for which I would then pay them.

Ymmv.

Tigaseye.2047:

Purple Miku.7032:

Too many of the people who play it chose it because they were looking for the best they could for as little money to spend as possible. Obviously not all, but a huge amount of people yes.

This is probably going to sound harsh, but those people are not really customers, then.

They may have been at the start, but if all someone has ever paid towards this game is the initial price of the game, they can’t really be seen as that, anymore.

In fact, if anything, at this point (i.e. three years in), they are probably costing the company more than they initially made it.

So, if they’re not customers, what is their function, from a company’s (cold, hard cash) POV?

Probably the best description is game-filler and given that at least some of them are probably currently making the game seem far worse, for others, rather than better (I’m talking about some of the rude “pro” types, in dungeon speedruns, for example), it could be fairly debatable whether they are worth keeping around, anyway.

Nah, I think everyone who plays the game is still a customer. Anet chose the free to play (with initial cost) model instead of sub. Just because the model allowed players not to spend real life money other than initial cost doesn’t make any player less of a customer. In that case, the fault is in the business model, not the players.

If that’s the case, then how many weeks or months does someone stop being a customer after not spending anything after buying the game?

Sizer.5632:

Id be all for it. Once youre more than like, 16 years old, you realize that $15 a month for something you can easily play for 20+ hours a week is nothing compared to other things you can spend your money on.

But since like, half the playerbase is 16 (or acts like they are), it wouldnt work, so i dont think it will ever happen.

Or when you are 47, single parent with a teenager in the family and you must to pay every bill an extra 15€ a month is a pain. An extra 30€ would be really tough and the extra 60€ that out four accounts would require impossible.

Please, try to have mercy on us who do not make the kind of money you do. It is not like it hurts you that there is not a monthly bill to pay for this one outlet we get.

Tigaseye.2047:

Pandaman.4758:

Sizer.5632:

Id be all for it. Once youre more than like, 16 years old, you realize that $15 a month for something you can easily play for 20+ hours a week is nothing compared to other things you can spend your money on.

But since like, half the playerbase is 16 (or acts like they are), it wouldnt work, so i dont think it will ever happen.

And once you’re more than 22~24 years old and paying off your student loans, bills, taxes, providing for the filthy parasi-I mean, adorable baby, having one less monthly bill is a welcome thing.

Unless you’re clinging to a bachelor lifestyle or suffering from a sudden abundance of wealth, that is.

I think these are social and political issues that extend far beyond a sub/no sub debate.

Why exactly are you and your family being made to struggle to survive, when 1% of the population own almost all the money in the world?

I was actually being a bit snarky by characterizing Sizer as a person who hasn’t actually worked for his money yet, much like how he characterized people who are unwilling to pay monthly subscriptions as being teenagers or adults acting like teenagers (which, honestly, doesn’t make sense because teenagers are the ones who tend to overspend at the drop of a hat).

In a more serious tone, there are adults with full-time “white collar” jobs who aren’t in as financially stable a position as they’d like (for a variety of reasons outside of their control) and have to manage their budgets accordingly; as such limiting how much they spend on entertainment a month is the responsible thing to do and GW2’s cash shop enables people to do just that, to broadly portray it as being immature is pretty kitten disrespectful.

As much as I love the game and the world it is set in, I think I would leave if it went subscription. The reason I picked up Guild Wars seven or eight years ago is the fact it was free. I like casual play and with a subscription I feel kinda forced to play once I paid for a month.

I don’t mind tossing some bucks into the gem store every now and then (in fact, recently I went on a shopping spree after a tax refund), but a subscription would kill it for me.

If pigs could fly would bacon taste like chicken?

Sizer.5632:

Id be all for it. Once youre more than like, 16 years old, you realize that $15 a month for something you can easily play for 20+ hours a week is nothing compared to other things you can spend your money on.

But since like, half the playerbase is 16 (or acts like they are), it wouldnt work, so i dont think it will ever happen.

My experience has been the exact opposite.

When I was a teenager (specifically 12-16) I had no problem playing a sub for Ultima Online. It was a combination of having more responsibilities as an adult and earning my own money (which gave me a different perspective on what’s worth buying) that changed my mind.

Mainly the first one. When I was a teenager and could count on having hours a day, every day, to play it seemed worth it. When I was at uni and then working and might have no free time for a whole week, or just an hour a night, paying a fixed sum for a game I may or may not get to play just seemed like throwing away money. I thought that meant I’d never get to play MMOs, until I found out about GW1.

Before anyone starts making comments about how I shouldn’t be playing games at all if I’m struggling to afford basic necessities let me just say I could afford to pay a sub. I simply choose not to because to me part of being an adult is making sensible decisions about what to spend my money on. Many people compare paying a sub to seeing a movie or buying coffee. Would you buy a ticket for a movie you’re never going to see? Buy a coffee then throw it away without drinking it? I assume the answer is no. So why would I pay for a game I’m not playing?

Maybe if there was some sort of pay-as-you-go sub where you buy X hours in game and then use them as and when you want to I’d consider it. But paying a flat fee for time I can’t know in advance if I’ll be able to use or not is a stupid financial decision and not one I’m willing to make.

Tigaseye.2047:

So, if they’re not customers, what is their function, from a company’s (cold, hard cash) POV?

advertisement and general community. Wildstar forums have been arguing for 22 pages about free to play right now. Their point of view is that a free player would just be worthless. However what the game needs for more paying customers to show up even is population.
Who wants to pay for a game where you can’t run the leveling PvP and dungeons at all, where PvP at level 50 takes hours to get a match, where 2 out of 4 servers are dead and where adventures and world bosses (which are both part of the attunement) need to be planned for on reddit/ forums, as nobody does them?

An MMO without its general mass that makes it an MMO is not an MMO anymore. And when a sub game enters that slippery slope downwards, it’s almost impossible to set it straight because of the paywall that prevents new players from entering.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Developers have no guarantees about their revenue target with a sub, either.

Well, they do if people have paid for a few months in advance.

I always paid six months in advance for WoW (got a slight discount for doing that).

So, even if I decided to leave 1 month after I paid, they still got the other 5 months I had already paid; so, that was a guaranteed amount.

…and yes, it means less volatility as well, which is obviously also helpful for them.

Game consumers have two recourses with regard to “requiring that the game is designed/maintained” to their satisfaction. They can vote with their wallets, and kitten about things on forums. These options are available to both sub game and store game players. The sub game players have no more leverage on the developer than the store game players.

I would disagree with that.

Maybe a sub payer has no more leverage than a gem store big spender, but (inevitably) they will have more than someone who never spends one penny beyond the original cost of the game.

I think it’s obvious (and fairly unsurprising) that most of the people who play this (sub-free) game don’t want to pay a sub.

However, there is another (sizeable) group of MMO players, who will only play a game like this if it does charge a sub, as they view a sub-based game as having more integrity.

Not surprisingly, a lot of them are long-term WoW players (and there are still a lot of them).

So, you know, it could be argued that while you might lose some of the existing player base, by introducing a sub, you might simultaneously attract another group of players who prefer subs (in well-made games).

That group of players is pretty discerning though.

So, most of them simply won’t put up with a sub-standard, unbalanced game.

This is why they try other sub-based games, but then end up going back to WoW.

Not because they object to the sub, but because they view the other games as unworthy competitors.

This is the scenario I read about constantly, for years, on the WoW forums.

I’m not a proponent of volunteering to throw money at game developers in the hope they’ll make a quality product. I’d rather the horse were before the cart, and the developer produced a quality product for which I would then pay them.

Well, I would obviously totally agree with you that it would be best if they just sorted out any issues with the game ASAP, sub or no sub.

However, I’m also realistic and know that it is more likely that companies will bother doing that if they have more to gain (or not lose!) from doing so.

…and people having the ability to threaten to unsub, if they don’t, is a form of consumer leverage, whether you and I like it, or not.

Pandaman.4758:

In a more serious tone, there are adults with full-time “white collar” jobs who aren’t in as financially stable a position as they’d like (for a variety of reasons outside of their control) and have to manage their budgets accordingly; as such limiting how much they spend on entertainment a month is the responsible thing to do and GW2’s cash shop enables people to do just that, to broadly portray it as being immature is pretty kitten disrespectful.

Of course.

The vast majority of white collar workers aren’t in the 1% (or anywhere close to it).

Garambola.2461:

Sizer.5632:

Id be all for it. Once youre more than like, 16 years old, you realize that $15 a month for something you can easily play for 20+ hours a week is nothing compared to other things you can spend your money on.

But since like, half the playerbase is 16 (or acts like they are), it wouldnt work, so i dont think it will ever happen.

Or when you are 47, single parent with a teenager in the family and you must to pay every bill an extra 15€ a month is a pain. An extra 30€ would be really tough and the extra 60€ that out four accounts would require impossible.

Please, try to have mercy on us who do not make the kind of money you do. It is not like it hurts you that there is not a monthly bill to pay for this one outlet we get.

I always thought WoW should have a special family rate sub.

2 for the price of 1 and 4 for the price of 2 (as long as they shared a single postal address), or something.

Yenn.9185:

Tigaseye.2047:

Purple Miku.7032:

Too many of the people who play it chose it because they were looking for the best they could for as little money to spend as possible. Obviously not all, but a huge amount of people yes.

This is probably going to sound harsh, but those people are not really customers, then.

They may have been at the start, but if all someone has ever paid towards this game is the initial price of the game, they can’t really be seen as that, anymore.

In fact, if anything, at this point (i.e. three years in), they are probably costing the company more than they initially made it.

So, if they’re not customers, what is their function, from a company’s (cold, hard cash) POV?

Probably the best description is game-filler and given that at least some of them are probably currently making the game seem far worse, for others, rather than better (I’m talking about some of the rude “pro” types, in dungeon speedruns, for example), it could be fairly debatable whether they are worth keeping around, anyway.

Nah, I think everyone who plays the game is still a customer. Anet chose the free to play (with initial cost) model instead of sub. Just because the model allowed players not to spend real life money other than initial cost doesn’t make any player less of a customer. In that case, the fault is in the business model, not the players.

If that’s the case, then how many weeks or months does someone stop being a customer after not spending anything after buying the game?

Well, technically you may still be a customer and yes, it’s absolutely their business model’s fault.

All I’m saying is that, if you are actually costing a company money, do you think it’s as likely that they will view you as a valued customer, as someone who is making them money?

The devs may still do, if they’re nice people, but will the number crunchers?

Tigaseye.2047:

Adry.7512:

Tigaseye.2047:

Kartel.2561:

I don’t pay subs for games. Period. Yes I can afford it, but it’s a matter of principal. I don’t like feeling like my account is held hostage and that I have another kitten bill to keep up with. I don’t have a problem spending money on games. I’ve spent hundreds on GW2.

But it’s important that it be my choice and time without feeling like no matter how much money I dump into it, it will never be mine. I buy things; I don’t rent them if I can avoid it. And a game is something I can live without.

Even as attached as I am to this franchise, as soon as it betrays the customer relationship we had, it’s as dead to me as my ex-wife.

Hate to break it to you, but you’re not buying your part of this game, whether you also rent it, or not.

They can end it whenever they like and actually, if you don’t also rent a game, that is potentially more likely to happen than if you do.

It’s not like buying a physical object where, if you pay for it outright, no one can (lawfully) take it away from you.

ok thats all nice and dandy, but in the end, all ur efforts in a sub game are first off repetitive, second of all….not worthwhile since u need to constantly pay monthly for its use. lol sub games r a scam for people with nothing better to do, or for kids who thinks its the best thing ever. would you have paid monthly for kingdom hearts 2 when it came out? no right? its because its not built on a scam, lol sub games only thrive on repetitive copy/paste content to keep players on the hamster wheel. i prefer this game more…in pve and pvp. plus pvp is going to be a focus in the expansion so i am hoping for BIG things.

Why would the non gear-grind premise have to end just because they charged a sub?

Subs don’t have to mean grind, just because in some cases they do.

you either dont seem to grasp the idea and logic behind what i am saying or you are trying to prolong a pointless conversation. i understand what you mean, but all i can say is….consider your options if you plan on making a game, it might end really bad for you.

Tigaseye.2047:

All I’m saying is that, if you are actually costing a company money, do you think it’s as likely that they will view you as a valued customer, as someone who is making them money?

The devs may still do, if they’re nice people, but will the number crunchers?

FYI i dump about 30$ a month into this game sometimes more. So yes im a customer and i wouldn’t be giving them any money if this game was a subscription. Why you may ask? I dont like feeling like im being forced to play which is exactly what a subscription based game does if you have very little time. If it did ever go sub i know at least 20 people who would leave. Not because they cant afford it, but because they refuse to play sub based games because they dont have time to play very often, those people also dump about 20$ a month into the game for transmutation charges or an outfit here and there.

This game would almost certainly die if it went sub(IMO). The WOW players who migrated here would go back to WOW. The Players who are playing because its not a sub game would leave, probably even go back to GW1 Or find other MMOS. Some of the hardcore players might even leave. One of this games largest selling points is that its not a subscription. MMOS need to have players to be successful, and some of the events and world bosses would be very very hard to impossible to do without a mass number of people. Now i know that you have to argue for ANET here, but this is peoples opinions and its a hypothetical thread that will lose the respect ANET has from me if it ever comes true.

Sizer.5632:

Id be all for it. Once youre more than like, 16 years old, you realize that $15 a month for something you can easily play for 20+ hours a week is nothing compared to other things you can spend your money on.

But since like, half the playerbase is 16 (or acts like they are), it wouldnt work, so i dont think it will ever happen.

And I’m older than 16 and I barely break even between what I earn and what I have to spend.

I have to carefully weigh how much I will get out of what I’m spending. For games, I expect to get 1 hour of enjoyment for each $1 spent. But I hop from game to game. I don’t know at the beginning of the month which game I’ll be wanting to play that month. It may not be GW2. I don’t want to feel obligated to play the game for 15 hours each and every month. Because I won’t enjoy those 15 hours. They’ll be 15 hours that I wish I was spending in another game most likely.

Not everyone who works has the luxury of making a lot more than they have to spend.

Anet needs more merchandise I can throw money at. T-shirts, sweatshirts, mousepads, hats, plushie charr, etc. People eat that stuff up. I’d pick up some GW2 clothes, like a Blood Legion hoodie or a Rytlok T-Shirt :p

What would you rather have..
A small amount of people paying you a monthly subscription or a Horde of people paying you for name changes, minipets, armor skins ect.

Guild Wars started this business model and is the reason a lot of other games are changing theirs. If people don’t have a subscription to your game they cant buy your stuff. You can log in anytime and buy stuff in GW2. Look at how many games have gone from a sub to a nonsub lately, subscription based games are dying.

I would stop playing. I don’t like feeling that if I’m not playing I’m paying for something I’m not using.

I play Guild Wars/2 because of the no sub. The sub was the resin I stopped playing WoW. As a consumer I don’t see why I need to pay £40-£50-£60 for a game then £10 or what ever every month just to be able to keep playing. I’m not opposed to supporting ANet. I’ve personally spent a good amount on Gems since launch, I preordered the Digital Deluxe Collectors Edition. I couldn’t give you an exact amount I’ve spent in the gem store, but it is easily over £600. And I plan to preorder HoT Digital Collectors Edition(if there is one). I know it would have cost me less if there was a sub for the amount I’ve spent, but I wanted to. I didn’t have to. And as long as I can spend what I want when I want, I’ll keep playing. The moment that changes, me and my money will go somewhere else. I’m just glad this will never happen, as I know there are people out there who have probably spent thousands. I know of at least 2 people like that in game.

Tigaseye.2047:

IndigoSundown.5419:

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I’ve threatened to drop a sub before. I’ve also stated (here) that I would buy no more gems unless ANet did X, Y or Z. Both had exactly the same effect — nothing. I also see the same complaints in every game — too many or game-breaking bugs; not enough content; poor or “no” endgame; etc. It does not seem to matter whether the game is sub or not.

Unfortunately for the MMO genre, WoW set two standards.

1. Many seem to think it’s a well-designed, well-executed game. I’m not one of them, but that’s just me. Ergo, any game that does not measure up to that standard is not worthy of a sub.
2. Publishers see the beaucoup bucks that were made, and want a piece of that pie. However, WoW was the right game in the right place at the right time. We’re in a really different market now, and it’s unlikely that one game will generate such large numbers.

I also think a lot of gamers use their first game as the example by which they judge other games. If that first experience was good, then all other games get compared (and are usually found wanting). If it was bad, then the aspects of that game are reviled. I’ve had good experiences with B2P games, bad ones with sub games. I’d wager you’re the opposite. As is often the case, things boil down to what people like.

most of ppl still playing gw2 b/c its b2p with no sub.

Danikat.8537:

Many people compare paying a sub to seeing a movie or buying coffee. Would you buy a ticket for a movie you’re never going to see? Buy a coffee then throw it away without drinking it? I assume the answer is no. So why would I pay for a game I’m not playing?

I will try to answer this since I did make the comparison you mention.

For $15 at the movie theater I can expect a 90 minute, sometimes longer, show. A subscription to an MMO would need only provide me with five minutes per day of entertainment, perhaps half an hour per week, to exceed that.

No I wouldn’t buy a ticket to a movie that I never intend to see but, by definition, if we have bought the game, have installed it, and so on the intention to play is there. I it looks as if my schedule for an upcoming month was going to be so tightly packed that I could not expect to find half an hour a week to log in then I would unsubscribe for that month.

All of that, of course, on the assumption that I consider the game worth paying for. Such is not currently the case with GW2.

I already pay more than my fair share through the gemstore. If I had to pay a subscription on top of that, I would just quit.

I bet more than 50% of GW2 players (including myself) spend MORE on this game a year than what other games charge for a yearly subscription.

I think they get away with lot of balance and development snafus in this game specifically because it is not subscription based. If people were paying a monthly fee probably wouldn’t be nearly as willing to put up with the issues that plague GW2.

Sizer.5632:

Id be all for it. Once youre more than like, 16 years old, you realize that $15 a month for something you can easily play for 20+ hours a week is nothing compared to other things you can spend your money on.

But since like, half the playerbase is 16 (or acts like they are), it wouldnt work, so i dont think it will ever happen.

Speak for yourself and while you’re at it, keep that condescending tone to yourself as well.

I’m 26 years old and I think 15 euros a month is a lot of money for a video-game.

Could I pay 15 euros a month for GW2? Sure. Would I pay 15 euros a month for GW2? Hell no! GW2 is totally not worth 15 euros a month. I don’t think any game is worth that amount of money.

When you’re no longer 16 (or acting like you are) you’ll realize there are better things to spend your money on than MMORPGs. Once you’re more than 16 years old with an actual life going on you won’t even have time to play video-games for 20+ hours a week (I mean really, 20+ hours a week on video-games is a lot of wasted time, the last time I wasted that much time on video-games was almost 10 years ago).

Sub only worked for World of Warcraft, Eve (That one with the space ships and money) Final Fantasy 14. Those are the most popular sub based MMOs right now. However you can tell that sub is a tired old system as even WoW is starting to go the way of Eve and Wildstar by making in game currency as a way to pay for monthly fees. Heck remember SWTOR? Not even a year and they dropped their sub but introduced pay walls. ESO managed to last a year before they dropped their sub for DLC stuff.

GW 2 at the moment as the best system (at least for ANet) in terms of making money. Their gem store. There are always a bunch of people who will buy something, demand something from the store, or just exchange gems for gold.

I have a very different view on how subscription versus microtransaction setups affect game quality than some here.

That is, Microtransactions actually see higher quality.

Subscription based games don’t offer the incentive for developers to really work on making a great game. They can settle for “acceptable” and rake in the same amount of cash anyway. Anything they put out doesn’t have to be great, just “good enough to keep a percentage paying subscription.”

Microtransactions, on the other hand, make nothing unless the quality is deemed high enough to be purchased in its own right. Also, while microtransactions usually don’t cover actual gameplay, no in-game cash shop will ever succeed if the rest of the game isn’t good. For microtransactions to be effective, they not only must be delivering something of high enough quality that it is worth purchasing, they have to deliver the game quality to have people around to buy said item.

TLDR: Subscription-based models can settle just fine with mediocrity to be successful. Microtransaction models have to strive for better to be successful.

Not to knock gw2, I like it quite a bit… But it isn’t a good enough game to ask a subscription.

Too many bugs since launch, too many undeveloped systems, and not enough hook.

It’s a good game for the model that it is, but it coudnt make the switch with what it is offering now or in HoT.

I’d quit. I’d never pay a subscription for a video game. I haven’t bought any new games in a long time because I have a hefty backlog, so adding $15/mo would be a huge increase in expenses.

For me im already at subs playing GW2. Why? Because of programs like wtfast and battle ping. I pay monthly to get a slightly better gaming experience. Sad…