Guild Wars 2

You really arent paying attention to what you got when you started and when you farmed for a while.

Ive been very busy with SW this last week, i remember when i did not farm SW extensively i got aprox 10 t6 mats every vinewrath and from mobs.

That droprate diminshes extremely poorly to 3 t6, sometimes even not granting me 1 at all.

Chestfarming, when i did it once a week, i got atleast 2/3 charged cores per 50/75 chest. sometimes a charged lodestone.

As it stands now, after chestfarming almost once a day, or doing SW in general. I get 1 charged core every 200 chests, if im lucky, and no charged lodestones at all in 2 weeks time.

Ive noticed this at every part of the game, from reward tracks in pvp, to worldboss kills, to doing daily teq, everywhere.

Im not saying its impossible to get sick loot from farming daily, im saying the returns are diminished to the loot you ‘used’ to get.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Diminishing_returns

The thing is, it kicks in WAY to fast. and it seems the entire notion of going to another area to reset it these days gets longer and longer. This way ‘old accounts’ will be affected by diminishing returns way faster, since they already ‘saturated’ there accounts with most decent ‘profitable areas’ , actually effectively granting a mass diminishing returns in the entire game at some point at spots where you can get gold, if you play atleast 8 hours a day. It sometimes even feels that the diminishing returns takes over a week to reset, (note PvP reward tracks).

New areas on the other hand, ussually grant you super loot when they just got released, making you play there, and be like ‘Oh wow, this areas is proffitable’ yet it just has a new diminishing return you havnt touched yet.

This is bad for the game, if people know about it. Hence why Anet is not openly responding or talking about it, making the numbers open.

Because this is ‘bad’ for business, or wrather, its bad for investors investing in gw2 demanding a certain quarterly report. ‘buy gems’

But more importantly this is bad for the veteran community alltogether, aka the longevity of gw2.

This is also reflected in the state of PvP, or WvW atm. They where used as ‘commercials’ to lure people in. But any PvP game thats online with multiple classes should get more love then once every quarterly/half a year, of balance patching.

The only focus anet has right now is the expansion. They dont release any more reall content updates biweekly or even monthly. Because suddenly they feel more inclined to let the playerbase bleed out starving for more content. Because they know they will return regardless when the expansion comes out.

This is bad business. Especially if you see how the gemstore still gets love. It really shows where anet is focussing its assets the most. ‘more revenue’

People might say ‘Yeah thats how a business works’.
I say, ‘Yeah thats how a company works wich cares more for money, than the players. killing longevity and trust from veterans’ Its a cashin quick and after run when you get the money.

I, as a veteran gw1 player am concerned about the actuall longevity of gw2 if these practises are going to be maintained. Because the more i hear about it, the less i want to keep playing. Or even bother with buying an expansion. (wich i definatly will the first time around, but if this continues. there will not be a third dragon for me to kill at the very least)

Artificially lenghtening playtime in a game is bad.

EDIT: For all reading this now. It seems DR has a difference in what mob and loot you gain. Some stuff is fully rng, whilst others can be hit by DR but asfar as i can tell it is really rare to hit a DR since allot of stuff is fully RNG (bandit chests for example)

I guess RNG and DR will always be tricky since its so complex to understand and it seems the few who have hit DR hit it only on specific things (like monster kills).

So in general what i have concluded from this is that in the end it is all luck of the draw. Thank you for reading regardless and let this thread inform you if you have any questions about it.

While they are changing the Legendary system—or changing to one, I should say—and adding map rewards for old areas to get what your character needs, I doubt they’ll ever fix this anymore than they’d ever fix magic find to be a viable bonus for playing the game. Anet knows empty, soulless grind like old-school eastern MMOs, like Bo knows baseball, even.

Playing 8 hours a day is really intense. I’m not sure how many players play that much per day. I suppose those that do would have to change characters and areas to try to avoid as much of the effects of DR as possible.

As for new content, it would be nice to get some while the Devs concentrate on HoT, but I manage to find things to do in-game. Of course, I can only speak for myself. It is probably more difficult for those that are still playing 8 hours a day. Such players would probably chew through content in a much shorter time-frame than those that play less each day.

Drop of T6 mats is very random. I can tell you at least for Frostgorge Sound, that
there doesn’t exist any DR for drop of T5 / T6 mats, since i have farmed there
a lot at least in 2013, and even if i farmed the same spot for 8 hours the droprate
was the same beside the RNG ..

The RNG however made me get sometimes 12 per 30 minutes, and then only 2
for 30 minutes.

Diminishing returns kicks in way too quickly. Within 20 mins of being in any one area the loot you get is severely reduced. I notice that my first 5 too 10 loots in a area I get some slightly above average drops but after that its junk, more junk and even more Junk.

I think it’s designed this way because most world boss fights take a good 10-30 mins to finish and get to the loot. By the time Diminishing returns has already kicked in.

What I have noticed about Guild War’s 2 is ALL the Gold coming into the game comes from the Gem store.

You can avoid spending any silver or gold on anything but fast travel, level 7 characters up to 80 sell all your loot to venders and still lose money. You can do the dailys, do all world bosses and sell all the junk loot you get and you don’t even break even from the quick travel costs.

The ONLY way to make money in this game without buying it from the gem store is to sell stuff on the Black Market Trader. The problem is that Gold comes from other players who are in exactly the same position as you. The only way they are making money is from other players or the gem store but NO ONE is making money from selling items to NPC venders.

I am willing to bet that 95% of Guild War’s 2 in game Gold was originally bought with Gem’s.

This is the only MMORPG I have played were I can’t make enough money vendering items to cover travel costs and walk away at the end of the night with profit from selling Junk items. The fast travel costs completely out strip any income you make in normal game play while trying to avoid Diminishing Returns and doing the daily events.

Try making the hundreds of Gold you need by vendering Junk items at level 80 to go craft Ascended items. You just can’t do it even if you salvage everything for mats and hit every node while doing your dailys.

The other issue is you can level up a few level 80’s and salvage EVERYTHING yet still fall FAR short of even leveling up one crafting disciplined. I have the store bought mining/woodcutting/harvesting tools and I hit every node I see on the map while leveling to 80 yet I still need to buy hundreds of materials after hitting 80 on more then one character just to level one crafting discipline up.

In short.

1. Diminishing returns kicks in after 20 mins. Your average gaming session is 2 hours for even a casual player. 20 mins is way to harsh and designed to prevent us getting better loot from most world bosses.

2. You can’t make gold in this game without selling to other players. Other players have the same issue. The end result is most of the Gold in this game is store bought directly from the gem store. That really bothers me.

3. Even if you salvage every single item when leveling characters up to 80 and hit every single node you see you still need to buy hundreds of materials to level up crafting.

4. You can sink thousands of hours into GW 2 hit every single world boss for months on end and NEVER see anything but salvage loot from boss chests. You never feel like your doing anything but running on a mouse wheel with no end in sight.

At first I use to think GW 2 was casual friendly. Now I realise that the only thing casual about this game is the leveling system but once you hit 80 it’s a brick wall. To get the Gold you need and crafting supplies you need within a reasonble period of game play you have to open your wallet and buy the Gold you need from the gem store which in all honesty is ruining the game for me at this point. The other option is grinding the same content for months where you never see the loot that makes you feel it’s worth logging in every day or playing and all the Gold your not buying yourself is coming from a players wallet even if your selling stuff on the Black Market.

Isn’t it funny how you can’t even buy ascended gear that other players craft? and that the only option to get ascended gear is crafting it yourself? See above for the issues with that.

Everything is coming from the in game store one way or another due to Diminishing returns, low drop rates, lack of materials even if you salvage everything from one to 80 and hit every node, requiring you to craft your own epic gear due to us being prevented from selling it. The limitations are funnelling everything the same way.

I don’t know about the lower level areas but in SW and Southsun DR kicks in very quickly, usually less than 30 minutes.

In Southsun I’ve farmed skelk’s and kakras. Skelks will give me an average of 5T6 and 50T5 blood per hour for the first hour and an average of 0 T6 and 10T5 for every subsequent hour. Kakra farming the main event on the loop will give 10-12 blues/greens, 5-10T5 and 0-2T6 for the first 2 loops and 0 blues/greens, 0T5 and 0T6, with 3-4 junk items for every subsequent run. DR is clearly noticeable in this case as it is sudden and dramatic.

In SW you get both Event DR and reward DR. most of the mobs don’t drop loot so it is harder to see the drastic cutoff, but you can see it in the event chests. At first the event chests grant 12-25 Crests, and 2-5 bags of gear per event. This lasts for about 30 minutes. After that you will see a drastic drop down to 2-8 crests, 0 bags of gear and 1-2 piles of sand. Event DR also kicks in pretty quick with the experience and karma rewards quickly dropping off to 0.

Once DR sets in I usually just log off completely. I find zoning or changing characters doesn’t help, you just need to log off for at least 12 hours. That seems to fully clear it.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I don’t know about the lower level areas but in SW and Southsun DR kicks in very quickly, usually less than 30 minutes.

Diminishing Returns kicks in at 20 mins. Not enough time to do anything constructive in a area or complete any content with the “better” loot rewards.

They say Diminishing Returns is to prevent Gold Farmers. I say 20 min Diminishing Returns isn’t there to prevent Gold Farmers from making Gold as they typically spend hours in the same area not 20 mins as its their Job. This isn’t even getting into the fact Gold Farmers don’t come close to competing with the in game Gem store on Gold prices. I have seen their msgs and reported them. Diminishing Returns is designed to prevent EVERYONE from getting the better loot rewards or making Gold on their own.

If this was a fair and balanced system Diminishing Returns would take at least 60 mins to kick in so we can COMPLETE the content with better loot rewards before the Diminishing returns kicks in. 20 min Diminishing returns is wrong on so many levels.

SW is horrible for t6 unless you buy Stolen Bags of Loot with your Bandit Crests. You’re better off farming Orr otherwise. SW also only seems to give you vicious ‘t6’ items and potent poison sacks or what not. The others will drop in Orr really. I believe that’s why with the new t6 system it coincides with what the mobs drop. However Stolen Bags of Loot will give you every t6 (t5’s and junk too) though.

From the OP’s description, it sounds like random variation rather than diminished returns. The easiest way to tell if you’re getting DR for Breach/VW farming is to look at event credit: if the karma/xp gain is lower than normal (or tiny), it’s DR; otherwise, it’s probably not DR.

Victuswolf.5286:

What I have noticed about Guild War’s 2 is ALL the Gold coming into the game comes from the Gem store.

Exactly 0 gold comes into the game from the gem store. It even removes gold.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

From the OP’s description, it sounds like random variation rather than diminished returns. The easiest way to tell if you’re getting DR for Breach/VW farming is to look at event credit: if the karma/xp gain is lower than normal (or tiny), it’s DR; otherwise, it’s probably not DR.

^^This, this is how you can tell that DR is affecting you, and I can almost guarantee that even playing 8 hours in SW is not going to get you hit by DR. I have yet to reach the DR wall in any zone, even when I played well over 8 hours in that same zone on the same character(which I do in SW all the time). I suspect it’s just the random nature of drops, nothing more.

Victuswolf.5286:

What I have noticed about Guild War’s 2 is ALL the Gold coming into the game comes from the Gem store.

This is 100% false. The majority of gold in game comes from either Dungeon rewards (majority) or selling items to the vendor(all those grey items). Teq gives 2 gold minimum each time it is completed per person. I am sure the 3 headed Worm does a similar amount and other world events give a handful of silver. That is just raw currency rewards right off the top of my head.

BTW, I stopped reading at this point because when someone is SOOOOO wrong in the first couple sentences there is no reason to read the rest of a wall of text like that. IF there are any salient points made they will be repeated later on on a lesser wall.

eithinan.9841:

Victuswolf.5286:

What I have noticed about Guild War’s 2 is ALL the Gold coming into the game comes from the Gem store.

This is 100% false. The majority of gold in game comes from either Dungeon rewards (majority) or selling items to the vendor(all those grey items). Teq gives 2 gold minimum each time it is completed per person. I am sure the 3 headed Worm does a similar amount and other world events give a handful of silver. That is just raw currency rewards right off the top of my head.

BTW, I stopped reading at this point because when someone is SOOOOO wrong in the first couple sentences there is no reason to read the rest of a wall of text like that. IF there are any salient points made they will be repeated later on on a lesser wall.

Cherry picking one long boss event that you will likely do once a day at most to get you just 2 gold when it costs hundreds of Gold to craft anything epic? Really? All the other trash in this game sells for coppers and most of the bosses don’t give you any trash to sell for gold or even copper. Even the level 80 junk sells for coppers.

You tell me how do you make the hundreds of Gold needed in a reasonable time frame to level up your crafting & craft Ascended gear without selling anything on the black market (as your salvaging it all for mats) and without spending weeks or even months grinding?

[edit]

I will set the context. Level up 3 characters to 80. Hit every node and salvage every item. You still won’t have the crafting mats needed to level up even one crafting discipline on one character and it’s extremely unlikely you will have more then 10 gold even if you avoid spending any on traits or gear.

Then you have 3 level 80’s stuck at a wall that requires hundreds of gold per character to advance them. Don’t even think of trying to craft one legendary. That’s the reality of Guild War’s 2.

Zaklex.6308:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

From the OP’s description, it sounds like random variation rather than diminished returns. The easiest way to tell if you’re getting DR for Breach/VW farming is to look at event credit: if the karma/xp gain is lower than normal (or tiny), it’s DR; otherwise, it’s probably not DR.

^^This, this is how you can tell that DR is affecting you, and I can almost guarantee that even playing 8 hours in SW is not going to get you hit by DR. I have yet to reach the DR wall in any zone, even when I played well over 8 hours in that same zone on the same character(which I do in SW all the time). I suspect it’s just the random nature of drops, nothing more.

there are multiple types of DR event DR is different from drop DR

Victuswolf.5286:

eithinan.9841:

Victuswolf.5286:

What I have noticed about Guild War’s 2 is ALL the Gold coming into the game comes from the Gem store.

This is 100% false. The majority of gold in game comes from either Dungeon rewards (majority) or selling items to the vendor(all those grey items). Teq gives 2 gold minimum each time it is completed per person. I am sure the 3 headed Worm does a similar amount and other world events give a handful of silver. That is just raw currency rewards right off the top of my head.

BTW, I stopped reading at this point because when someone is SOOOOO wrong in the first couple sentences there is no reason to read the rest of a wall of text like that. IF there are any salient points made they will be repeated later on on a lesser wall.

Cherry picking one long boss event that you will likely do once a day at most to get you just 2 gold when it costs hundreds of Gold to craft anything epic? Really? All the other trash in this game sells for coppers and most of the bosses don’t give you any trash to sell for gold or even copper. Even the level 80 junk sells for coppers.

You tell me how do you make the hundreds of Gold needed in a reasonable time frame to level up your crafting & craft Ascended gear without selling anything on the black market (as your salvaging it all for mats) and without spending weeks or even months grinding?

The other poster is correct. Gold is not manifested by buying gems. There are enough players, who over the course of the game, that grinded it out to saturate it to the level it is now.

The only time at which gold came from the gem store was at the very beginning of the game and that has long since past.

Victuswolf.5286:

eithinan.9841:

Victuswolf.5286:

What I have noticed about Guild War’s 2 is ALL the Gold coming into the game comes from the Gem store.

This is 100% false. The majority of gold in game comes from either Dungeon rewards (majority) or selling items to the vendor(all those grey items). Teq gives 2 gold minimum each time it is completed per person. I am sure the 3 headed Worm does a similar amount and other world events give a handful of silver. That is just raw currency rewards right off the top of my head.

BTW, I stopped reading at this point because when someone is SOOOOO wrong in the first couple sentences there is no reason to read the rest of a wall of text like that. IF there are any salient points made they will be repeated later on on a lesser wall.

Cherry picking one long boss event that you will likely do once a day at most to get you just 2 gold when it costs hundreds of Gold to craft anything epic? Really? All the other trash in this game sells for coppers and most of the bosses don’t give you any trash to sell for gold or even copper. Even the level 80 junk sells for coppers.

You tell me how do you make the hundreds of Gold needed in a reasonable time frame to level up your crafting & craft Ascended gear without selling anything on the black market (as your salvaging it all for mats) and without spending weeks or even months grinding?

the gem market creates no gold, it actually reduces gold.
All gold comes from event rewards, gold drops, bag loot (give like 3 copper) and people npcing crap.
then people trade each other thier gold on the bltc.
yes, most people are poor. The rich people got their dough from the poor people, or they did a ton of dungeons.

Victuswolf.5286:

eithinan.9841:

Victuswolf.5286:

What I have noticed about Guild War’s 2 is ALL the Gold coming into the game comes from the Gem store.

This is 100% false. The majority of gold in game comes from either Dungeon rewards (majority) or selling items to the vendor(all those grey items). Teq gives 2 gold minimum each time it is completed per person. I am sure the 3 headed Worm does a similar amount and other world events give a handful of silver. That is just raw currency rewards right off the top of my head.

BTW, I stopped reading at this point because when someone is SOOOOO wrong in the first couple sentences there is no reason to read the rest of a wall of text like that. IF there are any salient points made they will be repeated later on on a lesser wall.

Cherry picking one long boss event that you will likely do once a day at most to get you just 2 gold when it costs hundreds of Gold to craft anything epic? Really? All the other trash in this game sells for coppers and most of the bosses don’t give you any trash to sell for gold or even copper. Even the level 80 junk sells for coppers.

You tell me how do you make the hundreds of Gold needed in a reasonable time frame to level up your crafting & craft Ascended gear without selling anything on the black market (as your salvaging it all for mats) and without spending weeks or even months grinding?

The average is around 10G an hour for farms. Dungeons tours have been reported give out upwards to 60G over the entire tour. Unlike other farms, you can only really do these once a day.

Weeks/months is very subjective and vague. It’s better to express it in the format of hours. Otherwise you run into the issue of two people having farmed nonstop for three weeks with one only for two hours a day and another for 8 hours a day.

A large bulk of the materials can be farmed directly with the exception of leather and tailor as you get materials indirectly through bags or salvaging. SW does give the player a great avenue for cloth scraps while leather is relatively cheap due to have very limited usage/demand.

Edit: I just saw your edit. I usually end up with about 10+ gold after leveling a character to 80. The trait system is bening reworked and will be released before the expansion. The cost of buying traits will be a non-issue soon.

Victuswolf.5286:

Diminishing returns kicks in way too quickly. Within 20 mins of being in any one area the loot you get is severely reduced. I notice that my first 5 too 10 loots in a area I get some slightly above average drops but after that its junk, more junk and even more Junk.

I think it’s designed this way because most world boss fights take a good 10-30 mins to finish and get to the loot. By the time Diminishing returns has already kicked in.

What I have noticed about Guild War’s 2 is ALL the Gold coming into the game comes from the Gem store.

You can avoid spending any silver or gold on anything but fast travel, level 7 characters up to 80 sell all your loot to venders and still lose money. You can do the dailys, do all world bosses and sell all the junk loot you get and you don’t even break even from the quick travel costs.

The ONLY way to make money in this game without buying it from the gem store is to sell stuff on the Black Market Trader. The problem is that Gold comes from other players who are in exactly the same position as you. The only way they are making money is from other players or the gem store but NO ONE is making money from selling items to NPC venders.

I am willing to bet that 95% of Guild War’s 2 in game Gold was originally bought with Gem’s.

Not really, most gold comes from dungeon runs as they give out a guaranteed 1.5 gold reward. you don’t even have to invest into anything to get it except ~3/4silver for the waypoint.

This is where the gold comes from. you’re quite deluded if you really think the majority of gold comes from gems.

It mostly comes from dungeon / daily gold rewards and people who flip TP.

This is the only MMORPG I have played were I can’t make enough money vendering items to cover travel costs and walk away at the end of the night with profit from selling Junk items. The fast travel costs completely out strip any income you make in normal game play while trying to avoid Diminishing Returns and doing the daily events.

Try making the hundreds of Gold you need by vendering Junk items at level 80 to go craft Ascended items. You just can’t do it even if you salvage everything for mats and hit every node while doing your dailys.

They do this to encourage you to use the TP, that way the gold earned from dungeons is actually broken down a bit due to the 15% fee you give away.

Everyone would be insanely rich if you’d make profit selling to vendors + the already guaranteed gold rewards you have in this game.

The other issue is you can level up a few level 80’s and salvage EVERYTHING yet still fall FAR short of even leveling up one crafting disciplined. I have the store bought mining/woodcutting/harvesting tools and I hit every node I see on the map while leveling to 80 yet I still need to buy hundreds of materials after hitting 80 on more then one character just to level one crafting discipline up.

Because the whole point of crafting is for it to take resources and it taken a while to achieve. You’re not supposed to hit 80 and max out your crafting instantly (even tho thats easy to do nowadays)

Again, they want you to spend gold from the guaranteed drops so nobody ends up with 5k gold in less then half a year

Let me put it this way:

Gem value has increased since launch, when it dropped, it never dropped below the previous lowest value.

This means 2 things: gems are always profitable & people have so much gold left they just decide to waste it on gems for whatever it is they want.

This leads the my summary: making gold in this game is one of the easiests thing to do. even if you only play 1 hour a day.

DR keeps the game in balance. everyone’d have a full legendary collection by now if they didn’t add it

suck it up and be proud they give you guaranteed resources for gold and don’t let you simply rely on RNG like all the other mmo’s out there

phys.7689:

Victuswolf.5286:

eithinan.9841:

Victuswolf.5286:

What I have noticed about Guild War’s 2 is ALL the Gold coming into the game comes from the Gem store.

This is 100% false. The majority of gold in game comes from either Dungeon rewards (majority) or selling items to the vendor(all those grey items). Teq gives 2 gold minimum each time it is completed per person. I am sure the 3 headed Worm does a similar amount and other world events give a handful of silver. That is just raw currency rewards right off the top of my head.

BTW, I stopped reading at this point because when someone is SOOOOO wrong in the first couple sentences there is no reason to read the rest of a wall of text like that. IF there are any salient points made they will be repeated later on on a lesser wall.

Cherry picking one long boss event that you will likely do once a day at most to get you just 2 gold when it costs hundreds of Gold to craft anything epic? Really? All the other trash in this game sells for coppers and most of the bosses don’t give you any trash to sell for gold or even copper. Even the level 80 junk sells for coppers.

You tell me how do you make the hundreds of Gold needed in a reasonable time frame to level up your crafting & craft Ascended gear without selling anything on the black market (as your salvaging it all for mats) and without spending weeks or even months grinding?

the gem market creates no gold, it actually reduces gold.
All gold comes from event rewards, gold drops, bag loot (give like 3 copper) and people npcing crap.
then people trade each other thier gold on the bltc.
yes, most people are poor. The rich people got their dough from the poor people, or they did a ton of dungeons.

You buy gems. You use gems to to buy gold directly or you use gems to buy keys for black lion chests and sell the results on the black market.

The market for Gem to Gold soon drops when there’s nothing in the gem store worth buying. Why? because a lot of people convert gems into gold.

If no one was doing it we would not see massive shifts from from 350 gold right down too 250 gold. There are a lot of people buying gold with gems otherwise gem to gold prices would stay above 350.

A great example of this is all the Black Lion Chest ticket weapon skins, Dyes, Contracts and mini’s on the Black Lion Market. They all sell for lots of gold. Most of that comes from store bought gems.

[edit]Some might come from key grinders but the time investment is not worth it. It takes well over a hour maybe a few just to get one key that way. In just one hour at a min wage job you can make enough money to buy 25 keys. (what most people do who work and havent got time to ruin their fun grinding keys)

ok theres a few things yall are saying that just don’t ring true

1. Gem to Gold conversion is trading gems one player has for gold other players have.

2.if you cant afford to wp then your doing something wrong dont vender to npcs.

3. MMO is a long term thing you play for months to years they base all of the content around atleast 6-8months of gameplay.

now diminishing returns certainly isnt hitting any of you it only hits if your acting like a farming bot so chat with folks play with others dont go it alone and stop farming the same mob for 8hours a day 7 days a week.

@Victus You’re completely forgetting all the players that turn in gold into gems. That is where the gold players who are trading gems >gold is coming from.

Victuswolf.5286:

phys.7689:

Victuswolf.5286:

eithinan.9841:

Victuswolf.5286:

What I have noticed about Guild War’s 2 is ALL the Gold coming into the game comes from the Gem store.

This is 100% false. The majority of gold in game comes from either Dungeon rewards (majority) or selling items to the vendor(all those grey items). Teq gives 2 gold minimum each time it is completed per person. I am sure the 3 headed Worm does a similar amount and other world events give a handful of silver. That is just raw currency rewards right off the top of my head.

BTW, I stopped reading at this point because when someone is SOOOOO wrong in the first couple sentences there is no reason to read the rest of a wall of text like that. IF there are any salient points made they will be repeated later on on a lesser wall.

Cherry picking one long boss event that you will likely do once a day at most to get you just 2 gold when it costs hundreds of Gold to craft anything epic? Really? All the other trash in this game sells for coppers and most of the bosses don’t give you any trash to sell for gold or even copper. Even the level 80 junk sells for coppers.

You tell me how do you make the hundreds of Gold needed in a reasonable time frame to level up your crafting & craft Ascended gear without selling anything on the black market (as your salvaging it all for mats) and without spending weeks or even months grinding?

the gem market creates no gold, it actually reduces gold.
All gold comes from event rewards, gold drops, bag loot (give like 3 copper) and people npcing crap.
then people trade each other thier gold on the bltc.
yes, most people are poor. The rich people got their dough from the poor people, or they did a ton of dungeons.

You buy gems. You use gems to to buy gold directly or you use gems to buy keys for black lion chests and sell the results on the black market.

The market for Gem to Gold soon drops when there’s nothing in the gem store worth buying. Why? because a lot of people convert gems into gold.

If no one was doing it we would not see massive shifts from from 350 gold right down too 250 gold. There are a lot of people buying gold with gems otherwise gem to gold prices would stay above 350.

A great example of this is all the Black Lion Chest ticket weapon skins, Dyes, Contracts and mini’s on the Black Lion Market. They all sell for lots of gold. Most of that comes from store bought gems.

[edit]Some might come from key grinders but the time investment is not worth it. It takes well over a hour maybe a few just to get one key that way. In just one hour at a min wage job you can make enough money to buy 25 keys. (what most people do who work and havent got time to ruin their fun grinding keys)

oh, you dont mean gold is generated, you mean its easiest way to profit.

ehhh buying gold yes, thats a quick way.
but the actual items arent very profitable. Black lion key items are extremely ineffecient in terms of earning gold, you make more money selling gems for gold directly.

Most of the value of the gem store items, are the things you cant sell in game. armors/outfits/bank slots etc.

Victus, while you may have some solid points regarding Gem to gold conversion, I’ll leave any responses regarding that to those who’ve actually done it, as I’ve never bought a single gold with Gems.

I did however have to comment on your harvesting and your WP’ing costs comments.

You’re way off.

I play tops an hour or two each day. A good portion of that time is spent getting my dailies in pvp or wvw (they seem the quickest). Depending if I’m working on a particular achievement or there’s an event like there’s been in SW and Dry Top lately, I may spend some time doing that. The rest of my time is spent running a route in Orr harvesting everything.

As you can see, I’m not hard core in any shape or form. I do the odd dungeon and enjoy the little gold boost it gives to my day. What I harvest allows me to craft the odd money making item depending on the current market. I also sell any mats that I have in excess of 4 stacks. I’m quite the casual, yet I make minimum 3 gold a day. I’m currently well over 1000 gold.

In SW for instance, the average item looted is over 1 silver. Talking strictly about greens and blues, I salvage everything light, and vendor everything else. Those trash items drop like rain. WP’ing costs are tops in the mid 3 silver range. I’d say the average cost is under 2 silver. That means for very WP I do, all I need to do is kill 2-3 mobs to break even.

If you’re farming there as you say for any extended time … how are you possibly losing money? How poor is your route planning that you could possibly be WP’ing that much?

and you’re forgetting that alot of players who’d supposdly work a job at min wage will consider this as a game and threat it as such. just because you can buy 25 keys in hour of work in real life doesnt mean they will.

Experienced players who have enough gold by now also know thats its way more convenient to just flip it on TP or investing it into gems so they can return it into profit months later.

Most gold comes from in the game itself, the value of gems increasing in a steady line since launch is prove of that.
The people now buying a stupid fan for 600 gems through gold is prove of that

Even if DR kicks in you’re still going to make gold, just less then what you are used to.

@mikal, victus meant the returns if you’d npc all your stuff. i doubt that would leave you in a loss tho. but TP is there for a reason and you’d be blunt out ignorant if you don’t decide to use it and consider npc vendors as your source of income.

Victuswolf.5286:

You buy gems. You use gems to to buy gold directly or you use gems to buy keys for black lion chests and sell the results on the black market.

You simply don’t get it that this does not create gold. Its a trade. The gold is already
in the game, and is just shifted from the gem-buyer to the gold-buyer.

Else you could also say that the TP creates gold .. oh look i sold 10 powerful blood
and bang .. 5 gold appeared out of nothing.

Victuswolf.5286:

You can avoid spending any silver or gold on anything but fast travel, level 7 characters up to 80 sell all your loot to venders and still lose money. You can do the dailys, do all world bosses and sell all the junk loot you get and you don’t even break even from the quick travel costs.

As others have pointed out, the amount of gold coming into the game via the gem store is near zero. The above is also not true at all. Unless you are just spamming waypoints for no reason, you not only don’t lose gold doing the above, but you almost cannot avoid making gold. Following the world boss train will make you a few gold per hour. Just roaming around in open world doing events, harvesting nodes, and killing stuff will make a gold per hour or so.

And why would you want to sell to vendors? Why complain about a lack of gold when you are throwing gold away by selling stuff to vendors? Aside from gemstore items, everything that players need or want drops in the game. The TP is a way for players to trade to others the stuff they get in excess in exchange for stuff they lack. This is by design and it is actually a pretty good design since GW2 has a functional economy.

I am willing to bet that 95% of Guild War’s 2 in game Gold was originally bought with Gem’s.

The reverse seems more likely to me.

The other issue is you can level up a few level 80’s and salvage EVERYTHING yet still fall FAR short of even leveling up one crafting disciplined. I have the store bought mining/woodcutting/harvesting tools and I hit every node I see on the map while leveling to 80 yet I still need to buy hundreds of materials after hitting 80 on more then one character just to level one crafting discipline up.

I got my crafting disciplines to 500 a long while back, and it’s been a while since I leveled up a toon’s crafting. So I can’t say if this is true or not. But it was not true when I got my crafting up. For most of my toons, I gathered almost everything I used to craft them to level 400. But for the most part, leveling up a crafting discipline is (by design) a gold sink, so you will lose gold doing it. For example, to get weaponsmith to level 400 will currently cost about 20G…

http://gw2crafts.net/weaponcraft.html

But that assumes buying many of the materials. You can see that all of those are pretty easily obtained. The greatest amounts needed are 483 iron and 164 platinum, which can be easily gathered or accumulated during casual play via harvesting and/or salvaging. Of course it is also simple to buy some of these materials using gold gained from selling drops on the TP.

2. You can’t make gold in this game without selling to other players. Other players have the same issue. The end result is most of the Gold in this game is store bought directly from the gem store. That really bothers me.

Gold is only needed for stuff. You sell for gold on the TP the stuff you don’t need to other players who do need it. You then have gold to buy the stuff you need. It’s a very effective system and works a bit like real life economies.

4. You can sink thousands of hours into GW 2 hit every single world boss for months on end and NEVER see anything but salvage loot from boss chests. You never feel like your doing anything but running on a mouse wheel with no end in sight.

GW2 can be a bit grindy, but what you are expecting here? If you hit every single world boss for months you will get lots and lots of armor, weapons, and other drops that you can either sell for gold or salvage for materials. You will get quite a few rare items and the occasional exotic as well. If you get lucky, you might get a precursor. What would you expect to get instead?

You don’t need to buy gold from the gem store. In short, you are playing the game incorrectly if you can’t get the basic stuff you need from casual gameplay. I’ve been playing since the pre weekend, and I am about as casual as it gets. Never run dungeons. Never even done all the story mode dungeons yet. Don’t do fractals. Never farm. Rarely even do the boss train. Never grind. I have maybe a dozen toons at level 80 and have done world completion on 3-4 of them. I’ve spent a silly amount of time just running around exploring, gathering, opening chests, doing events, etc. I often don’t even harvest every node I pass. And yet I have easily gotten all crafting disciplines to 400, most to level 500. I have all toons in exotic armors, most with ascended trinkets, and a few with ascended weapons. I had enough gold to buy a precursor and enough to be close to forging the legendary. All this by casually wandering around and having fun. People with a plan and purpose have been able to make lots and lots more gold by comparison. All without ever buying gold via gems. I have done the opposite and bought gems with gold, mainly for additional character slots.

This game does a horrible job of making gold available to players, casual or otherwise. End game is cosmetic, and you won’t be enjoying a variety of cosmetic goodies if you’re not grinding or throwing real money at the game. If earning gold to craft a full set of Ascended is your goal, be prepared for pain. That it takes time to gain the gold for Ascended isn’t the problem, the problem is that the most lucrative ways to earn that gold over time is by grinding it out in trains or doing one event chain over and over.

You have two choices: have fun playing a large variety of content and let it be a surprise when you finally have enough gold to get that crafting finished, or grind your mouse hand out until you have enough and hate looking at the game for it. There’s very little in between.

They claimed this game would be different, but the gold standard is the only standard for attaining items, and gold = grinding in Guild Wars 2.

Thought this thread was about DR?

phys.7689:

Victuswolf.5286:

eithinan.9841:

Victuswolf.5286:

What I have noticed about Guild War’s 2 is ALL the Gold coming into the game comes from the Gem store.

This is 100% false. The majority of gold in game comes from either Dungeon rewards (majority) or selling items to the vendor(all those grey items). Teq gives 2 gold minimum each time it is completed per person. I am sure the 3 headed Worm does a similar amount and other world events give a handful of silver. That is just raw currency rewards right off the top of my head.

BTW, I stopped reading at this point because when someone is SOOOOO wrong in the first couple sentences there is no reason to read the rest of a wall of text like that. IF there are any salient points made they will be repeated later on on a lesser wall.

Cherry picking one long boss event that you will likely do once a day at most to get you just 2 gold when it costs hundreds of Gold to craft anything epic? Really? All the other trash in this game sells for coppers and most of the bosses don’t give you any trash to sell for gold or even copper. Even the level 80 junk sells for coppers.

You tell me how do you make the hundreds of Gold needed in a reasonable time frame to level up your crafting & craft Ascended gear without selling anything on the black market (as your salvaging it all for mats) and without spending weeks or even months grinding?

the gem market creates no gold, it actually reduces gold.
All gold comes from event rewards, gold drops, bag loot (give like 3 copper) and people npcing crap.
then people trade each other thier gold on the bltc.
yes, most people are poor. The rich people got their dough from the poor people, or they did a ton of dungeons.

This. People spewing missinformation about gold comming from magical fairy lands or gem stores should read up on how the TP acctually works before embarrassing themselves.

As was mentioned by others, a good way to check for DR is to track event karma and gold reward.

Also anet has never been secrative about diminishing returns. It was very present in GW1 and was openly communicated for GW2. Only because they don’t reply to every single thread created on a topic, especially missinformed ones, does not mean they are plotting to overthrow all world governments.

phys.7689:

Zaklex.6308:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

From the OP’s description, it sounds like random variation rather than diminished returns. The easiest way to tell if you’re getting DR for Breach/VW farming is to look at event credit: if the karma/xp gain is lower than normal (or tiny), it’s DR; otherwise, it’s probably not DR.

^^This, this is how you can tell that DR is affecting you, and I can almost guarantee that even playing 8 hours in SW is not going to get you hit by DR. I have yet to reach the DR wall in any zone, even when I played well over 8 hours in that same zone on the same character(which I do in SW all the time). I suspect it’s just the random nature of drops, nothing more.

there are multiple types of DR event DR is different from drop DR

There are even more types of DR than that. But the OP was describing a type of DR that would almost certainly happen alongside event DR. Event DR is trivial to measure; drop DR is not — thus, in the Silverwastes, event DR is a good proxy for determining if you are suffering DR. The notable exceptions would be (a) you are chest farming (I don’t think you are likely to get DR, for reasons beyond the scope of this thread) or (b) for some reason, you aren’t moving outside the range of a single fort for hours.

I’ve encountered event and drop DR in S/W and both occurred when I was the only one escorting Red Bull. As soon as others were in the map could help that route, I moved on and lost the DR as soon as I got to another fort and was doing the associated events.

tl;dr Yes, DR is more complicated than my original post suggested. But it’s a perfectly good place to start, especially since drop variation is so wide, it makes it very difficult to kitten drop DR without recording all drops for a few hours.

@Victus, I’ve never converted Gems to Gold, only used the Gems to buy stuff I wanted for myself, I have however made over a 1000 gold in SW alone, and that includes spending upwards of 100 of that Gold on the TP to acquire some relatively inexpensive items I needed to make something that I was never in a rush to make myself. I’ve never bought materials from the TP to level up any of my crafting disciplines, and the only that isn’t at 400 is Chef, all others are at least 400 and some are over, with one close to 500, but still, nothing bought from the TP to get to that level. I’ve only had to buy the resources from the Crafting Merchants required to make certain refined materials. Since people seem to think you reach DR in SW quickly, even the Wiki thinks it’s 3 hours, I’m going to do an experiment, and it should be quite simple since I spend all of my time there anyways. I’m going to stick to one Fort, do the same Fort over and over, keeping in mind that the events rotate and you never do the same Event consecutively for any length of time…I’ll not my rewards for each event…then I’ll report the results here.

I think that those who are protesting the loudest are working for the gold sellers and are upset that they aren’t making any money. Therefore they come into the forums and raise a stink to have it changed.

My theory is as plausible as any other in this thread.

Oxbone.3490:

I think that those who are protesting the loudest are working for the gold sellers and are upset that they aren’t making any money. Therefore they come into the forums and raise a stink to have it changed.

My theory is as plausible as any other in this thread.

more plausible than some…

Wow. That’s sad that someone could be playing so badly that they are losing money by playing and have to buy gold. I don’t even know how they are doing that unless they are vendoring everything. Even casual playing, not doing much in particular, gets me 1 or 2 gold.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Wow. That’s sad that someone could be playing so badly that they are losing money by playing and have to buy gold. I don’t even know how they are doing that unless they are vendoring everything. Even casual playing, not doing much in particular, gets me 1 or 2 gold.

This is exactly my experience as well.

The thing i was pointing out at is ALL sorts of loot in this game have DR except guaranteed loot (like rares for instance at world bosses)

The fact is simply said that DR kicks in way to fast on all fronts. And dont give me the RNG ‘explanation’ because to be frank RNG isnt measurable at all, droprates are.

Statisticly its possible to get a day of so called ‘super luck and get all the goodies’ while the next 6 days are all wasted time and you get literally no drops.
Ofcourse with RNG this would be possible,
but if this happens every week, every time in the same timeframe of the first hour extremly good loot and then the next 7 hours give you terrible loot. Then no its not RNG obviously, but DR, Obviously DR. Especially if its measurable at every part of the game no matter what gametype your playing (chestfarm/worldboss/teq/wvw/pvp even fractals etc.)

Because if the same ‘first day of play super loot’ is true every time you take a break and the rest following is bad loot, then thats not RNG, instead it is programmed to do so.

Example; 1 hour good loot, 7 hours bad loot. Take a break (sleep) 1 hour good loot, 7 hours bad loot etc. (take week break) 3 hours very good loot, 5 hours bad loot.
This is systematicly giving you diminishing returns with a low regenerating ‘DR’

Magic find however ties in with DR, eventho the DR negative is way bigger then the MF positive. Aka even with super high MF, DR will diminsh your drops to such a low that MF seems useless. And someone without any MF and without DR would receive better loot then someone with those both maxed.

Maybe those that feel they are being hit by DR faster than what ANet claims can get together with John Smith. They can ask him to look into the days they are saying it happened and have him see if DR kicked in at 20 or 30 minutes instead of the hours ANet says it does.

if you go to an area and farm the mobs, the first round of kills gives you a bunch of bonus xp (and better drops) if the mobs havent died for a time. upon respawn, the bonus xp is reset and has to build up again. the actual normal drop rate for those mobs kinda sucks. so its best to wander through an unplayed map once or twice, kill all the things, and leave for 15-30 mins while the mobs recharge.

the thing is, this isnt actually diminishing returns. this is bonus. it feels like dr, because the rewards do diminish after a round or 2, but its really just you cleaning up all the bonus loot from no one killing anything for a while.

dr happens when you repeatedly do something like 5 times and your rewards / drop rates start to fall below normal levels. like if you escort a pack bull for the entire buildup of a map.

but i guess people dont realize that anet constantly tries to make it best for you to wander around doing a bunch of different things. open world loot/rewards is about the only content its worked for.

Added to that we have outliners of the RNG scale added to this systematic looting schedule, with people always getting great loot regardless if they are on DR, and vice versa, people who are in the worst tier who never seem to ever get an exotic. But these are very rare instances. An anomaly if i say so myself.

The fact remains tho that DR is ruining people who dedicate time to get good loot in certain areas and are forced to explore ‘other options’ in the game they dont necesairly want to play, but considering DR is more valueable timewise. This means if you want DR to never have any effect on you. You will have to do all possible content ingame in a certain order every day to maximise loot potential.

Lets hypothetically say, i start with chest farming for an hour (not sure if its an hour but its definatly not more before DR hits me) After that hour i will go to orr, do events for an hour. After that i will do dungeons for an hour (because yes even ingame drops from mobs in dungeons get DR’d, but i have not seen DR hit different dungeons, aka doing the same dungeon on different paths mean you will probably also get hit, since your killing the same mobs in the same zone, but doing path 1 of 2 different dungeons will probably not cause DR, i have not tested this because i am not a huge fan of dungeons and have not much experience here) After doing dungeons, you will need to start doing World bosses, after that PvP for an hour and after that to close things off Wvw for an hour.

The problem with this is that it gates you in a certain schedule (because if you want DR to not hit you, you will need to avoid the area you are DR’d in for aslong as the DR cooldown is) So if i where to do chestfarming, do a dungeon, and get back to chest farming, if your DR is stacked high enough with the initial chest farm, you will still feel the effects the second time you do it. Wich is where the true problem lies.

I mean i enjoy all parts of guildwars 2, But sometimes i just want to dedicate my time to stuff like PvP to get really good, And when DR hits me within an hour it demotivates me to continue, eventho thats what i want to do.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Maybe those that feel they are being hit by DR faster than what ANet claims can get together with John Smith. They can ask him to look into the days they are saying it happened and have him see if DR kicked in at 20 or 30 minutes instead of the hours ANet says it does.

I would gladly do so, its funny because to try and test how long DR cooldowns are the last few days ive tried to play the content i think im DR’d in the least amount i could.
And even with this i noticed a difference, i actually got mediocre to when i first started charged cores again, Eventho it wasnt the same when i only did it once a week for an hour or two, since i got way more back then.

ErazorZ.5209:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Maybe those that feel they are being hit by DR faster than what ANet claims can get together with John Smith. They can ask him to look into the days they are saying it happened and have him see if DR kicked in at 20 or 30 minutes instead of the hours ANet says it does.

I would gladly do so, its funny because to try and test how long DR cooldowns are the last few days ive tried to play the content i think im DR’d in the least amount i could.
And even with this i noticed a difference, i actually got mediocre to when i first started charged cores again, Eventho it wasnt the same when i only did it once a week for an hour or two, since i got way more back then.

Until you provide actual numbers of kills and specifics on the drops, it looks very much like normal variation, not any sort of DR or ‘double secret probationary DR’. The people that present stats on industrial production of precursor (by forging rares) are sometimes up in profits by a few thousand, and sometimes down as much as 4-5,000 gold — that’s how random numbers work. You get lucky in streaks…and unlucky in streaks. It’s very rarely ‘average’ for any short period of time, especially with the huge variety of potential drops.

tl;dr it takes a fair bit of data to establish whether something unusual is happening or not.

and ps I’m still willing to help people organize to collect their data, even though I’m confident it won’t show anything odd.

I didn’t find any DR kicking in in SW, and I didn’t read a plethora of threads and/or posts about it happening during the last week or so. It can’t be all those who posted are said ‘lucky’ accounts, because most of the accounts commented on how ‘unlucky’ they were.

Seems odd…

Still, good luck on getting your issue investigated.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

ErazorZ.5209:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Maybe those that feel they are being hit by DR faster than what ANet claims can get together with John Smith. They can ask him to look into the days they are saying it happened and have him see if DR kicked in at 20 or 30 minutes instead of the hours ANet says it does.

I would gladly do so, its funny because to try and test how long DR cooldowns are the last few days ive tried to play the content i think im DR’d in the least amount i could.
And even with this i noticed a difference, i actually got mediocre to when i first started charged cores again, Eventho it wasnt the same when i only did it once a week for an hour or two, since i got way more back then.

Until you provide actual numbers of kills and specifics on the drops, it looks very much like normal variation, not any sort of DR or ‘double secret probationary DR’. The people that present stats on industrial production of precursor (by forging rares) are sometimes up in profits by a few thousand, and sometimes down as much as 4-5,000 gold — that’s how random numbers work. You get lucky in streaks…and unlucky in streaks. It’s very rarely ‘average’ for any short period of time, especially with the huge variety of potential drops.

tl;dr it takes a fair bit of data to establish whether something unusual is happening or not.

and ps I’m still willing to help people organize to collect their data, even though I’m confident it won’t show anything odd.

Like i said, true randomness is truly random, what i have been experiencing is not truly random but statisticly noticed, getting worse. I for one can see randomness (like that one time when i got a ori node from a bltc key) vs static loot that gets less rare and worse over time, eventually till you hit almost no good loot at all except for the occasional reall RNG, its not just the uber rare drops, its mostly notable in drops that drop more often. Like rares, since eventually you will notice with these sorts of things the fastest when you get 10 rares in an hour after not playing for 10 days, versus getting 5 the second day you farm and barely 1 the last few days when you farm.

If this stuff happens always the same, first few hours i get good loot and afterwards it diminshes, there really isnt much else to say except DR is too harsh. Especially since ive noticed this exact same trend in every sort of thing i do, (in pvp i used to get almost always atleast 1 random exotic every reward track, nowadays i noticed that i get 1 maybe every 10 reward tracks since ive been playing it pretty much allot the past few months.

It was the same with farming mobs in orr, drops from world bosses (where i used to get 2 rares + 1 guaranteed versus no rares at all for days except for the guaranteed)

It really is the same. And i know allot of people have this aswell, since ive been discussing it allot stretched over a year at least. The first time i really noticed it was when the ‘orr anti goldseller stuff’ entered gw2. The date when DR started for me.

Virtually nobody triggers DR anyway.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/I-have-a-question-about-the-economy/page/16#post4567605

Ayrilana.1396:

Virtually nobody triggers DR anyway.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/I-have-a-question-about-the-economy/page/16#post4567605

which DR is he talking about, what he says doesnt give you all the info or clear info.
I get event DR from doing SW and Cursed shore, i doubt there are only 26 people in the events farms experiencing that.

no one knows what he means by DR, or how many DR/limiter systems are in place.

Heck go maize balm farm. You’ll get noticeable DR soon enough. If you don’t get a tot you’ve hit dr.

Ayrilana.1396:

Virtually nobody triggers DR anyway.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/I-have-a-question-about-the-economy/page/16#post4567605

My own personal experiences as others are different tho.

Especially noticable now with SW ‘beta’ farming. Ofcourse i havnt hit rock bottom with DR, since i feel even the diminishing returns have various levels dependant on how long you play 1 area of the game. Wich in my example i was also trying to explain with the "If i play 3 days straight the first day i will get 10 rares, second 5 rares, consecutively speaking the last day 1. Slowly creeping the diminishing returns.

I for one am not a hardcore farmer who only plays SW 8 hours a day, so rock bottom i will not hit with DR since i also Pvp, and do other stuff when i cant be bothered with SW. But it is still very definatly noticable.

If anet would have a graph of my loot the past 2/3 weeks in SW, they might see what i mean…

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

Virtually nobody triggers DR anyway.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/I-have-a-question-about-the-economy/page/16#post4567605

which DR is he talking about, what he says doesnt give you all the info or clear info.
I get event DR from doing SW and Cursed shore, i doubt there are only 26 people in the events farms experiencing that.

no one knows what he means by DR, or how many DR/limiter systems are in place.

Event DR in SW? Is that taking into account which tier the fort is?

Ayrilana.1396:

Virtually nobody triggers DR anyway.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/I-have-a-question-about-the-economy/page/16#post4567605

Also can you imagine being one of those 26 people, kitten that would be no fun at all.

ErazorZ.5209:

Ayrilana.1396:

Virtually nobody triggers DR anyway.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/I-have-a-question-about-the-economy/page/16#post4567605

Also can you imagine being one of those 26 people, kitten that would be no fun at all.

Yeah but if you’re one of those very few, it makes one wonder what you must be doing to trigger it.