Guild Wars 2

How do you guys feel about the immersion in Guild Wars 2? You know, when you don’t think about leveling, stats, or RNG but the story, what’s around you, and what’s going on.

Usually, I find it a bit of a problem to get myself immersed in GW2, I think there should be more things happening around me that I can change, to make me view the world more serious in a neutral way. Most immersive experience was probably in early Personal Story.

For example, maybe 2 NPC’s got in a fight, and I decided to talk to one of them and get them to get along. That may be a really bad example but nevertheless I wish things to be in a more personal manner. What do you think about this?

Immersion is dead.

I blame it on the jarring transitions of instanced zones and waypoints.

WoW is more immersive than this game even.

You cannot be (or is very difficult to be) immersed in a game that:

- Restricts your camera to constantly 3rd person
- has instant travel + a load screen with every waypoint
- has no inherent weather effects
- has icons in every corner of your screen, and a non-adjustable UI
- has NO sunset or sunrise (only light, then dark, then light…)
- has a nearly static world of repetitious events and plethora of never-moving NPCs

All-in-all, single player games are where you will find immersion, where they can cater a game to fit around your character and present everything to you in a way that seems more natural and not segmented for someone else who happens to be doing the exact same thing you are.

MMOs just can’t have that type of immersion.

Best we can hope for is they start learning how to write better stories and polish up the game world, so instances and events will help make the player feel more integral in the world.

I actually made a video about this on my channel a long time ago, where I was going to explore zones with my UI completely turned off….and it actually made much more of a difference than I had imagined.

tl;dr

The game isn’t immersive, try playing with your UI turned off in a PvE zone, and you will at least feel a better sense of immersion.

Azure Prower.8701:

Immersion is dead.

I blame it on the jarring transitions of instanced zones and waypoints.

I blame it on being able to chill an Ice Elemental. Bleed an Earth Elemental. Also bleeding golems.

I kill a bear and all I can ever get from it is maybe a tooth or a claw or a tiny vial of blood but never all 3 at once.

How does a greatsword fit inside a mosquito anyway?

Yea I agree Immersion died for me also for a few reasons listed bellow

1. The Heart system in the game does not really immerse you into anything. There not even a reason to go speak with the NPC’s that have hearts other then to see what Karma items they offered. This made the zone heart completiion become just a leveling exercises.

2. The Story in the game up to Claw Island was simply amazing I felt a deep connection to it and enjoyed every min of it. Sadly after Claw Island the story goes from being yours to another NPC’s which completely ruined it. Seriously who wants to go from playing Batman to Robin.

3. The living story it comes it goes and it has minor effects on the world its self. Except one thing all the living stories where bundled togeather so missing one of them left a huge gape in what was going on.

These things each killed Immersion in there own way.

Zietlogik.6208:

MMOs chose to not have that type of immersion.

Fixed it for you.
It’s totally possible (especially in 2014) to create an mmo that is based on a core of immersion, 100% active combat (no spreadsheet based combat whatsoever), and more than 60% horizontal progression.

All they need to do is jettison their current, overrated, core which is based on grinds, stat based combat/character progression as well as the pain of balancing this kitten and overdone classdesign for a bunch of run-of-the-mill classes which end up in the melting pot called balancing process anyway. (I mean making a mage type class just for the sake of it? really?)

Don’t get me wrong GW2 is one of best MMOs I’ve played until now, but that’s only for MMO standards which haven’t really changed in a decade for some odd reason.

@topic
Immersion is fun for the first few days, even surpringly good for an MMO. Then the personal story starts to get really generic and lame (even ridiculous in some cases) and once you hit lvl 80 and try to create a powerful build based your preference immersion is gone – not only because this has already nothing to do with immersion anymore, but because this is only possible in a few cases.

+ the points Zietlogik mentioned and probably some more.

Full immersion is never possible in a game with other human players around. But then again, that’s not what I play MMO’s for. If I want full immersion, I play single player RPGs.

IMHO, immersion is up to the player. One doesn’t necessarily need first person view at all to be immersed. As it is, the world has PLENTY of atmosphere in which to live your own adventures through your characters, even though it HAS to make non-RP concessions for the sakes of those who don’t care about immersion at all, as well as player convenience.

People have been spoiled, I guess, but in the past even super strict computer RP games had next to zero “immersion factor” (relative to this game), in such ways that they relied on the manual, the game’s text, and yes, the player’s own imagination for it to happen.

Star Ace.5207:

IMHO, immersion is up to the player. One doesn’t necessarily need first person view at all to be immersed. As it is, the world has PLENTY of atmosphere in which to live your own adventures through your characters, even though it HAS to make non-RP concessions for the sakes of those who don’t care about immersion at all, as well as player convenience.

People have been spoiled, I guess, but in the past even super strict computer RP games had next to zero “immersion factor” (relative to this game), in such ways that they relied on the manual, the game’s text, and yes, the player’s own imagination for it to happen.

If you’re looking for true immersion, play a pencil and paper RPG like D&D.

No MMORPG has made me feel fully immersed. In fact, no video game has ever made me forget I wasn’t playing a video game except for a ski game at an arcade that made you stand in faux skis and hold onto ski poles. About halfway through the game, I started ducking to avoid getting decapitated by video branches.

The crowd that gathered behind me found it amusing.

GW2 is the most immersive mmo I’ve played, including ones I’m currently beta testing. With all the ambient fully voiced conversations of NPCs, creatures fighting each other, weather changes (although a bit subtle) and relatively uncluttered UI I find it easy to loose myself in the world & lore.

That being said there are a couple things that would improve this.

• Customizable UI elements. Being able to turn off or adjust the size/transparency of elements on the screen would go a long way to create a personalized sense of immersion. I sometimes play with the UI turned off and would do this most of the time if I didn’t need things like health/conditions/cooldown indicators in serious fights.

• More dramatic day/night & weather changes.

• Ability to turn off completely the mouse-over highlighting which also displays the name of the object, NPC, or player.

• Optional 1st person view. I’ve seen this in action with a certain mmo beta and although most will probably have 3rd person enabled, it would be nice to have the option.

Star Ace.5207:

IMHO, immersion is up to the player. One doesn’t necessarily need first person view at all to be immersed. As it is, the world has PLENTY of atmosphere in which to live your own adventures through your characters, even though it HAS to make non-RP concessions for the sakes of those who don’t care about immersion at all, as well as player convenience.

People have been spoiled, I guess, but in the past even super strict computer RP games had next to zero “immersion factor” (relative to this game), in such ways that they relied on the manual, the game’s text, and yes, the player’s own imagination for it to happen.

We’ve grown up as a culture, at least in the field of MMO’s. With more detailed graphics, realistic sound, and more interactive gameplay we stopped as a habit to imagine what’s really happening in our little screens. We can get the intentional picture the developers are trying to give us, and it’s been that way since the 21st century.

For immersion to happen, there doesn’t need to have a “No UI mode”, or an amazing story. It’s the realism, personality, and charm that truly emerges a player. When Guild Wars 2 was announced and explained dynamic events and all this cool stuff, I sort of expected the Skyrim feel of it. Walking randomly in town, maybe making a merchant go off business, NPC’s I have no idea who they are but they have some kind of personality. Some of them show me their soft spot if I’m a noble human, or I’m a dirt poor human and some nobles mock me in the beginning of the game (that moment happened early in Personal Story).

I kind of expected my character to explore around the town, and talk to random NPC’s and have engaging voice acted conversations with them, with my own selections on what to say and be off with it. These sorts of conversations with these personalized NPC’s help me connect to the lore and story, boost up my charisma (or whatever you want nowadays), and know a few things about the world and what this certain NPC thinks without me trying to read the kitten wiki on what’s going on.

Right now GW2 feels more of an arcade and a casual game to me, that’s not bad at all. I guess my expectations were off, haha. I still enjoy the game as it is, because it does a lot of unique things I enjoy.

It’s a casual game targeted at Bronies, what do you expect?

some of things that bother me are:
-night and day look the same
-not much weather changes except maybe there’s rain on the screen sometimes
-most importantly NO ONE can SIT on chairs! not even npc’s! this bug more than anything in this game. there’s a hunter in the lodge in queensdale the literally sits on the floor while he’s surrounded by chairs.

I wanted this game to be more immersive. I had hoped, after playing Rift, that it would be exactly what I was looking for. It’s not.

It’s better than Rift for me in every way, but it’s still not the immersive MMO I crave. And a lot of the things that annoy me, would be easy to fix.

Have creatures drop what they would have. I don’t want to kill a deer and get a long bow. I’d rather kill a deer and get an antler. I don’t want to fight bosses that are just too stupid to have survived childhood. The next to last boss in the CoE submarine path, who’s mechanic is making him charge into pylons is one example. I don’t want to have stupid game mechanic stuff that makes no sense at all, just there to make it a game. There are ways to do that stuff without making it stupid.

I don’t know why there isn’t an immersion litmus test that’s done, in the way that there’s a griefing litmus test. If you come up with an idea, and it’s clearly not immersive, why not change it?

Clearly a lot of people crave immersion.

Vayne.8563:

I wanted this game to be more immersive. I had hoped, after playing Rift, that it would be exactly what I was looking for. It’s not.

It’s better than Rift for me in every way, but it’s still not the immersive MMO I crave. And a lot of the things that annoy me, would be easy to fix.

Have creatures drop what they would have. I don’t want to kill a deer and get a long bow. I’d rather kill a deer and get an antler. I don’t want to fight bosses that are just too stupid to have survived childhood. The next to last boss in the CoE submarine path, who’s mechanic is making him charge into pylons is one example. I don’t want to have stupid game mechanic stuff that makes no sense at all, just there to make it a game. There are ways to do that stuff without making it stupid.

I don’t know why there isn’t an immersion litmus test that’s done, in the way that there’s a griefing litmus test. If you come up with an idea, and it’s clearly not immersive, why not change it?

Clearly a lot of people crave immersion.

There is too much, “That would be cool!” in ANet development meetings, and not enough, “What will this break?” “How will this look to various groups?” or “How could this be abused.”

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

I wanted this game to be more immersive. I had hoped, after playing Rift, that it would be exactly what I was looking for. It’s not.

It’s better than Rift for me in every way, but it’s still not the immersive MMO I crave. And a lot of the things that annoy me, would be easy to fix.

Have creatures drop what they would have. I don’t want to kill a deer and get a long bow. I’d rather kill a deer and get an antler. I don’t want to fight bosses that are just too stupid to have survived childhood. The next to last boss in the CoE submarine path, who’s mechanic is making him charge into pylons is one example. I don’t want to have stupid game mechanic stuff that makes no sense at all, just there to make it a game. There are ways to do that stuff without making it stupid.

I don’t know why there isn’t an immersion litmus test that’s done, in the way that there’s a griefing litmus test. If you come up with an idea, and it’s clearly not immersive, why not change it?

Clearly a lot of people crave immersion.

There is too much, “That would be cool!” in ANet development meetings, and not enough, “What will this break?” “How will this look to various groups?” or “How could this be abused.”

I’m not sure. I’ve never attended one of their meetings.

But I do think they need to have a person that really is just focused on whether content is immersive. Because a world can be neither living nor breathing without immersion.

Khisanth.2948:

Azure Prower.8701:

Immersion is dead.

I blame it on the jarring transitions of instanced zones and waypoints.

I blame it on being able to chill an Ice Elemental. Bleed an Earth Elemental. Also bleeding golems.

I kill a bear and all I can ever get from it is maybe a tooth or a claw or a tiny vial of blood but never all 3 at once.

How does a greatsword fit inside a mosquito anyway?

this one,

wanted to make an independent post on this topic…

how do you ‘poison’, ‘bleed’, ‘confuse’, undead or golems ?
how do you ‘burn’ demons and fire elementals? how do you ‘chill’ ice elementals?
how do you ‘cripple’ an ooze? what weapon do you use to kill a ghost? apparition?
how can you backstab something that don’t have a back or something you can barely reach its toe?

it is very cool that dredge immune to blindness… but what with all the other species???

why grubs and fireflies drop armors and weapons?
(animals drop unbelievable stuff… no need for blacksmiths , just hunt a deer and it will give you hammer….)

why is there a waypoint in the middle of a volcano? on an oceans bottom? who build it there and why?
if there is a waypoint it should only be in a settlement or fortified place. why is there more than three/four waypoints in a map?

I strongly believe that in order to have immersion in the game ( which have a wonderful world map by the way, both aesthetically and exploration point of view)
the monsters must be overhauled, they should have vulnerabilities and invulnerabilities, fire elementals should be healed by burn condition, ice elementals should be healed by chills etc.
any ghosts should be harmed only by guardian symbols or by using potion / sigil of ghost slaying.
and use more fear… they are kitten ghosts…
rangers should have innate +10% against all animals.

the animal drop tables must be polished more…

although removing waypoints in such casual game will cause a vocal outrage, it must be done.

Quagan backpacks, Rainbow bows, Greatswords with hearts, etc, this game is far from immersive.

Nick.6972:

Quagan backpacks, Rainbow bows, Greatswords with hearts, etc, this game is far from immersive.

None of this makes immersion impossible, or even difficult.

One of my most immersive RP experiences was basically pen and paper role-play on a forum, that allowed ‘free form’ character creation. Your character could be anything. Mine was a humanoid with bat wings who rode a dragon and lead an army of talking armadillos. Someone else played a hyper-intelligent Pikachu with a space station. The GM’s character was the God of Insanity. There were a few rules to avoid ‘god mode’ characters (“my character is invincible and can kill anything in 1 hit”) but that was it.

And it worked. Because it was built into the design and backstory of our fictional world that all these things could exist in the same place at the same time. (The short version being that this was a sort of ‘world between worlds’ with extremely unstable boundaries, it was normal for things to come through, voluntarily or otherwise, from all aspects of time and space.)

(In the unlikely event that there’s other Blackstar veterans around, hi by the way. Long time no see.)

Tyria has a long history of creative and artistically created weapons and armor, there’s the basic stuff too of course but given the chance all the races will incorporate a little decoration. They also use magic in crafting every day objects on a regular basis. So none of this is out of the ordinary in their world. And as that is the world you’re trying to be immersed in those things aren’t any more jarring than dragons fighting airships or magic portals or anything else that’s not real or common place in fantasy in general.

It is quite interesting that people seem to name Waypoints as a reason for breaking immersion, especially since Waypoints are an actual part of the lore and exists for the characters in-world.

As a roleplayer, I think GW2 is about the most immersive MMO RPG I’ve played. Sure it’s not perfect, but it has so many things going for it. I mean, a guy runs up to you warning about a centaur attack to the west. So you look to the west, to check if you can see the place he’s talking about – and then notice the huge pillars of smoke, to nicely point you into that direction! How is that not awesome and immersive? Sure, the event repeats 30 mins. later for the next unwary traveler, but that’s a compromise I accept, since it’s a multiplayer game rather than an ehm .. mediëval life simulator or something.^^ Waypoints are very very optional. If you don’t like them, just walk and enjoy the scenery, I do that all the time and it’s way more awesome! Sure I use them too when I’m gathering with some friends for a dungeon, for example.

I so agree in that it’s hilarious that like, a greatsword drops from a sparkfly. But then again that’s something that I’ve seen in about every RPG – so I just more or less accepted it.

Though there’s no weather? I’m absolutely certain that I’ve seen it rain or snow in several zones (rain in a lot of them actually).

I’ve actually never tried to play with the UI disabled, I’m so gonna try that, thanks for sharing the idea!

Personally I’ve never found any game immersive to the point where I can forget I’m sat at a computer playing a game.

This might sound contradictory but for me most of the immersion happens outside of actually playing, when I’m making up backstory and side-stories for my characters in my own head. That’s what makes it real to me and whether I’m able to do that or not defines how immersed I get into the game.

For example I always found Dragon Age (the first one) more immersive than Elder Scrolls games because I feel like your character is more of a real person. In TES there’s all this stuff going on around you, but even when I’m doing a quest or joining a guild or whatever I never really felt part of it. You’re always the passing stranger who happens to stop and help out.

Whereas in Dragon Age my character had a defined past that affected how she approached situations and how other characters treated her, she built actual relationships not just with her party members but other people in the world.

How you view it – the UI, the graphics, etc. are irrelevant to me, it’s what happens in the game that matters.

So for MMOs it’s very much about how you play it. I don’t tend to bother role-playing in game so when I’m actually playing it’s not particularly immersive, I’ll be having a conversation with my guild about what someone put on Facebook, jumping randomly for no reason, asking people what time an event is due to start etc.

But when I do think about it I can get very attached to my characters and get a sense that they are real, believable people with a place in their world. Even if that place is on top of a mountain firing unicorns at giant bugs that drop hammers.

The major problems I have with immersion are:

> You’re limited to a single class, which in addition to restricting your selection of weapons and armor, also imposes rather arbitrary playstyle limitations that cannot be altered through player customization (mobility restrictions, dependence on pets, etc.).

> Your skills are defined by your active weapon, which is really awkward for spellcasting classes.

> Events repeat themselves, many frequently and without explanation. Not much that could be done about this, realistically, as a large number of options for randomly generated events/enemies/etc. for each area would be necessary for an immersive experience, but there it is.

> Overabundant and randomly placed waypoints. I just pretend that they’re asura gates that are easier to set up but way more expensive to run, and are only used by particularly wealthy people/organizations (because they don’t make much sense otherwise). I try to ignore the ones that don’t make sense and write them off as concessions for player convenience (in a fortified military outpost = sensible, in the ocean = WTF), but it’s still distracting.

Escadin.9482:

All they need to do is jettison their current, overrated, core which is based on grinds, stat based combat/character progression as well as the pain of balancing this kitten and overdone classdesign for a bunch of run-of-the-mill classes which end up in the melting pot called balancing process anyway. (I mean making a mage type class just for the sake of it? really?)

I think the reason why developers aren’t doing this isn’t a secret. Go to any MMO forum and dare to suggest a MMORPG that does away with the traditional RPG stat mechanics.

Torches and pichforks will be out before you even leaned back in your chair.

On topic, I don’t have much problems with immersion in GW2. The events already make it a lot better than your typical static world. Loading screens aren’t great, but I’m not switching maps all the time, and when I do, I usually have a reason to, and at that moment the quick travel actually comes in handy. When I want to immerse myself in the world, I simply don’t use it. Helps with keeping my gold together, too.

A litle of sandbox elements would help.

The “problem” here is that Anet makes everything instanced on GW2.
Here is a small example:
I would not mind to see houses selling on the main cities with a portal on the door(to an instanced interior) but when a guild gets the house theres some elements that change deppends how place envolves and everyone can notice the modification outside.

But then i realise the existence of the overflow system that even borks LS….

2016 → MMO sandbox games with full seamless map…

I had hopes for immersion when I started at launch. Personal Story ruined them.

Personal Story is a fake experience where nothing reflects what happens in open world. Orr will always be a Risen-infested hellhole, Shaemoor will always in flames. Finishing it now means nothing but AP and a 2g+ Pact weapon token, after reams of substandard instanced content.

NPC interaction is lacking. The Charisma/Dignity/Ferocity mechanic is pointless. The instanced content in Personal Story does not affect the character except some backstory in the Hero Panel to read, then it is back to an open world of non-moving NPCs and canned dialogue. About half of the canned player responses are trite, sarcastic, or otherwise badly written.

GW2 is now QD/FG champ trains, dungeon sellers (6g per Arah run), AP hunting, farming world bosses on gw2stuff timers, FotM 3-4 times a day. There should be more RP-supportive content. There should be 1000x more dialogue with NPCs, more NPCs in cities, much more walking with all NPCs (even the vendors should walk a bit) and the Personal Story should affect interaction with all of them.

Personal Story should also change, like Living Story; such as Norn legend, which should be ongoing, be influenced by Claw of Jormag kills, Honor of the Waves. Right now after Arah Story it is a dead end which means nothing. Hearts are static and pointless.

Edge of the Mists using Living Story to bridge open world to WvW. The open world needs a bridge between Personal Story, Living Story, and itself for the sake of immersion, but this game is busy chasing imitation endgame content (Wurm, Marionette) right now.

Zietlogik.6208:

MMOs just can’t have that type of immersion.
.

I guess you haven’t played The Secret World?

I’m somewhat immersed until I hit a story cutscene and the screen pukes all over me.