Guild Wars 2

We have a choice.

I said it.

You say having MF is greedy and not cool, but I think trying to force players who want MF to do away with and play the game you want it is not cool and selfish.

Remove MF, buff/fix drop rates. Everyone wins. MF is redundant, everyone can get lots of MF, it’s not very expensive, so why not just make that the standard and remove it completely?

Exactly! thank you lifeson this is what i was trying to say!, I hope you don’t mind im going to edit in your exact post to my first post, ill take it down if you want just msg me.

The fundamental problem with magic find is that it is never about the playstyle of your character, unlike every other stat. Every other stat is about how you want your character to fight. Magic find is just making your character weaker to get more stuff.

I would have no problem with magic find if it did not take the place of another stat, and was instead just an extra perk occupying its own slot, but in every game where I have seen it on equipment, taking the place of another stat is exactly what it does.

As for people who are saying that taking it away isn’t fair to people that want it, it is completely arbitrary, as drop rates can literally be adjusted to anything the devs want. Again, that is a separate issue from balancing damage, which has a clear impact on the difficulty (that is not to be read as “time invested”) on the game.

I know that bringing up Diablo III is always a mistake but…I said for the longest time that Diablo III should not have magic find gear, and people argued with me and argued with me about it on some other forums. A few short months after launch, Blizzard turned around and decided that magic find is not a good stat to have on gear. Good reasons for not having magic find on gear (taking the place of another stat) include:

1. It encourages doing weird things like gear swapping just for the magic find boost, so then other arbitrary systems are layered on top of that, as it is seen as against the spirit of how it’s supposed to work. I know this is technically not possible to do with Guild Wars 2 mechanics in the first place (except for swapping between your two weapon sets), but it still pretty well illustrates how dumb it is.

2. It creates the stupid dynamic where the game mechanics directly incentivize bringing sub-optimal (for combat) gear.

3. It is a stat that, depending on your goal (not your playstyle, or your build, but your goal in playing) is either going to be favored over everything else, or useless. There’s really no middle ground with it. A player either aims to maximize their magic find or they don’t care about it. People can theorycraft about it all day, but that’s what actual player behavior always ends up being. I also mentioned this above, but this really is a critical point which some people seem to disregard: Every other stat is about playstyle and character build. Magic find is about rewards.

4. The whole goal of magic find gear is to get gear besides the magic find gear itself, which is kind of stupid for a variety of reasons.

At the end of the day, there’s really little of practical gameplay value that is accomplished with magic find that could not be accomplished via changing the base drop rates.

It’s even currently in the process of being removed from the archetypal MF game: Diablo. At least being transitioned off gear. D3 has instituted paragon levels acquired through xp to eventually replace MF entirely. It’s a long-term goal and it will be phased out over time.

MF supposedly offers a risk/reward concept for players to play with. IRL it causes more problems than it is worth. It never works in groups as anyone in high MF will be considered to not be pulling his or her weight, etc. It’s really more trouble than it’s worth. We should equate playing the game with the concept of “magic find”. That is, when you play the game, you should find interesting, valuable items. That should be the true magic find.

Agreed, imo MF is a junk stat. Remove MF and balance around loot tables a bit and here u go. Game’s gear/crafting etc. systems will become cleaner.

I hope i am not saying anything stupid here, since i got no experience in this, but i agree that it should be removed OR at least there should be another slots for magic find gear, with no stats, only the magic find one, and they could be a little more expensive than they already are.

This way we still had magic find, and we wouldnt be restricted from our main gear

I agree, Magic Find Gear should be removed. Reasons are well explained above. Obviously it should be replaced with golds or mats, not just deleted

People routinely complete content in this game with no gear on at all… there is very little of even marginal difficulty in the PVE part of this game.

The whole argument that you are a detriment to your team is total kitten. The people who screw their teams over are the ones who can’t stay off the floor long enough for a single fight with some dungeon trash mobs to finish. Any analysis of who is holding the team back beyond that is pure min/max silliness…

MF is an awful stat. Developers generally as intelligent as GW2’s developers should have been able to see that a long time ago. Why they persist with it is one of GW2’s major mysteries. It rewards people for being carried and encourages them to gear badly.

bluewanders.5297:

People routinely complete content in this game with no gear on at all… there is very little of even marginal difficulty in the PVE part of this game.

Are you aware that there’re ppl who don’t do dungeons and even hate em because they’re “too hard”? And it’s not like there are few of them either. Only thing MF does is litters game’s stats table and confuses some ppl. It’s a junk.

i don’t like it neither…

see, it bothers me that opening chests is less rewarding than stupidly farming mobs during events, because of magic find, my drops are a lot better if i just kill something. this is not how it should work. This goes very far: the grenth temple event in orr is just one example. There are many ice elementals during the event, along with a lot of mobs. Now this means for many people that it is actually better if the event fails again and again (because it restarts almost instantly), so that people can farm the mobs, especially the ice elementals, because those drop corrupted lodestones from time to time. I don’t like it to be flamed just because i am actually doing the event (means killing the shades and the priest…) as soon as the event suceeds.

i think it should be removed, and instead, general drop chances should be increased (especially for lodestones). Also, blue and green items should be removed from the chest loot tables for level 80 players (instead, i would like to see crafting mats and more rare and exotic items). Opening a chest should feel rewarding, because mostly you did something to get that chest anyway (dungeon boss, jumping puzzle, hidden spot, event boss…).

farming mobs should not be rewarded, neither should it be a good thing to immitate farmbots (did you ever farm air elementals near the entrance of Arah???), or hinder your party by equipping MF gear instead of something useful.

Blissified.8369:

Magic find is an old mechanic that is not fun, but we feal its mandatory

I don’t see how whether it being fun is relevant and it is not mandatory to play the game. In fact it isn’t mandatory to farm either. A lot of people do just fine without it.

Blissified.8369:

Magic find, promotes players to not be their best they can be

Yes and no. True that they won’t have the best stats possible but there’s nothing in pve that is really all that difficult. Player skill is worth a lot more than stats.

Blissified.8369:

hinder their teamates which is greedy and not cool

Greed? Do you do dungeons just because or do you do them because you want something from them? Everyone has the choice to use MF gear or not. Do you have statistical proof that it causes a hindrance?

You’re also forcing people to play according to your preferred methods so aren’t you being greedy as well? People are free to play the game however they choose. If you have a problem with that then don’t play with them.

So because they choose to use MF gear then that makes them greedy? So what about those that use greens because they can’t afford exotics and are using the dungeons to get them? Sure they must then be greedy or selfish too because they won’t farm exotics so you can have “quicker” runs.

Comparing non-MF exotic gear to MF green gear is inaccurate and cause distortions. Non-MF exotic gear should be compared to MF exotic gear while non-MF greens should be compared to MF greens.

Blissified.8369:

magic find needs to be gone from mmos, just make rng based with no magic find and it would be basicly the same thing as having magic find. Think about it.

This is your opinion and thank you for voicing a suggestion.

Blissified.8369:

Getting rid of magic find is innovative

How can you not agree? think of it having magic find really brings nothing to the table except pointless extra grind

No. Have you done real quantitative tests between those that use MF and those that do not? If you done substantial time trials to see if there’s a difference?

Blissified.8369:

if the loot tables are optimized for a no magic find game, players wouldnt notice a difference

Thanks you for the opinion. However, many people say they notice a difference.

Blissified.8369:

and we could focus more on having fun with the gear WE WANT instead of having to be underpowered in magic find gear which isnt fun.

So you’re saying people should be able to play with the gear that they want yet you don’t want them to use MF gear? Do you see anything wrong with that?

Blissified.8369:

Don’t say we have a choice

People do except you’re attempting not to give them one by saying they should not use MF gear.

Blissified.8369:

Remove MF, buff/fix drop rates. Everyone wins. MF is redundant, everyone can get lots of MF its not hard to get, it’s not very expensive, so why not just make that the standard and remove it completely?

Please look up the definition of redundant. Your reasoning also doesn’t make sense with your argument. Your reasoning that MF should be removed or made a standard because it’s already cheap is what I’m referring to.

Signet of Forums.4397:

As for people who are saying that taking it away isn’t fair to people that want it, it is completely arbitrary, as drop rates can literally be adjusted to anything the devs want.

Yeah and all other stats are arbitrary by your reasoning as the devs can adjust monsters’ stats.

Signet of Forums.4397:

It creates the stupid dynamic where the game mechanics directly incentivize bringing sub-optimal (for combat) gear.

Sub-optimal, yes. But by how much. Any quantitative statistical analysis proving there’s a substantial difference?

Signet of Forums.4397:

Every other stat is about playstyle and character build. Magic find is about rewards.

MF is technically a build and a playstyle so this is incorrect. Elaborate more.

Signet of Forums.4397:

The whole goal of magic find gear is to get gear besides the magic find gear itself, which is kind of stupid for a variety of reasons.

How? They’re using the gear to get better equipment through various means. They can get higher quality of gear to sell to get better gear for themselves. They can also use that extra money to fund getting that legendary that they have always wanted.

It’s similar to the concept that you have to spend money to make money. At least it is in my opinion.

Raine.1394:

It never works in groups as anyone in high MF will be considered to not be pulling his or her weight, etc

How do you know? Any evidence? How can you tell if it’s the gear or their skills?

I run MF though I am not risking or sacrificing any stats to do so

1. I use MF foods, for 26-30% MF.
2. I have a MF set however that is for when I am out map exploring by myself

I am not causing any issues with my group or close connection of friends that I run dungeons with.

@Myramar: "i think it should be removed, and instead, general drop chances should be increased (especially for lodestones). Also, blue and green items should be removed from the chest loot tables for level 80 players (instead, i would like to see crafting mats and more rare and exotic items). Opening a chest should feel rewarding, because mostly you did something to get that chest anyway (dungeon boss, jumping puzzle, hidden spot, event boss…).

farming mobs should not be rewarded,"

A few points:
1- Drop chances should be increased for a few things, but then again they shouldn’t. Some things like Onyx Lodestones are supposed to be elusive and rare, which is nice
2 – I like working for exo’s, and getting an exo drop is more exciting and rewarding than getting it from dungeon bosses that you can down in the space of 3 minutes (Think a CoF boss on either path 1 or 2)
3 – I farm mobs a lot. Why? Because I typically want what they have a chance to drop. Typically mats. I like being rewarded with the mats i’m after, for doing some work for it, rather than spending gold.
4 – If you’re unlucky to get people running full MF gear that’s unfortunate. There is 1 member of my group who runs full MF gear but there isn’t an issue with his DPS so it doesn’t matter.

At the end of the day, you don’t have to run with anyone using MF gear.
It’s their gear and their toon and they can play it however they want to

Myramar.8657:

it bothers me that opening chests is less rewarding than stupidly farming mobs during events

This.

The long quest chains are among the best parts of GW2 when played as intended, but there are perverse incentives for players to instead stall the chain at a given point for as long as possible rather than push through the story to its conclusion.

Because they require large-scale player participation and control access to a lot of game content (unlocking temples and the straits, etc), it’s important for the health of the game that the reward of actually finishing those quest lines is proportional to the investment of time and group coordination required.

By motivating players through the magic-find mechanic to farm events without finishing them (or just farm mobs rather than doing world events at all) the game now pushes players to make Tyria into a more static, uninvolving, dull place.

i am actually using a full MF set for farming. Yes, i farm mobs in cursed shore along with hundreds of others. I use it, but this does not mean that i like it.

see, what bothers me is the following

- killing standard mobs is more rewarding than killing a difficult boss or completing an event or dungeon.
- opening chests is boring (this is a different topic, indeed) because chests do mostly only contain junk.
- magic find helps, but grind is still grind. I have nothing against rare or ultra rare items in MMOs, believe me, but i don’t like it to “need” 250 of those just to craft an exotic item. See, the lodestone droprate would be absolutely fine if you would need 10 or 20 to craft an item, but as it is for now, i just see that you may not be able to get all those without having thousands of gold ( or, what seems to be intended, buy gems for cash to get thousands of gold)
- people are currently “abusing” events just to farm.
- magic find does only work with drops from kills, not chests.

See, my opinion is maybe outdated, but i think that it should be rewarding to do something challenging or big, like killing the priest of balthazar or completing a dungeon. I really miss the excitement before opening a chest, and Magic Find makes things worse here, because drops are now even better for just killing mobs. Magic find does reward stupid farming instead of well playing. And this is why i have a problem with it. besides of fractals, there is currently nothing that is as rewarding as stupid farming. And this is not fun.

If you class ‘well playing’ as not running MF gear, than that’s not well playing at all.
As I said, a friend (Whom I run numerous dungeons with, daily) runs a full MF set at all times – And his dps isn’t an issue. He does have a toughness set for certain fights, but his skill with his class comes through regardless of his gear. I’ve seen geared people fail drastically as well, so it’s just the person, their playstyle and how well they know their build/toon.

Chests/boss drops in most games are RNG, so I don’t understand why it’s an issue to give yourself a boost when farming outside of dungeons/events.
I don’t think standard mobs are more rewarding, when you’re getting trophies like broken lockpicks etc. I honestly prefer the bosses in dungeons and events and most of the things I need/want come from dungeons and events.

As for things like lodestones, I have a close knit group of friends and partner who all play and we pass our stuff (lodestones, gems etc) around to each other to help each other with whatever it is we’re trying to build.

Again though, I don’t think MF needs to go – It’s a matter of opinion and either you play with it or you don’t. It doesn’t affect the game in any drastic way. It’s more of a personal choice if you run MF, and if you’re anti-MF then don’t run with people who are pro-MF.

Ayrilana.1396:

MF is technically a build and a playstyle so this is incorrect. Elaborate more.

Better loot drops is not a playstyle. There are no skills that benefit from magic find. There is no role in a group that is better filled out by “speccing” into magic find. You can’t find a single enemy in the game where you would do better fighting against it, if only you had more magic find. That is contradictory to every other single stat you can choose. Every other stat is about being better at fighting. It’s a matter of how you want to do it. It’s not a different direct goal (winning fights), but rather the means to achieving it. Magic find is a different goal.

Rustypipes.6238:

We have a choice.

I said it.

You say having MF is greedy and not cool, but I think trying to force players who want MF to do away with and play the game you want it is not cool and selfish.

This, I agree with.

Ayrilana.1396:

Sub-optimal, yes. But by how much. Any quantitative statistical analysis proving there’s a substantial difference?

So let me get this straight: Your argument here is basically that there is not a sufficiently “substantial” (a rather subjective term, but you’ve rendered it a moot point) reason to run other stats over magic find? Just which side are you trying to argue for, anyway?

Ayrilana.1396:

Signet of Forums.4397:

As for people who are saying that taking it away isn’t fair to people that want it, it is completely arbitrary, as drop rates can literally be adjusted to anything the devs want.

Yeah and all other stats are arbitrary by your reasoning as the devs can adjust monsters’ stats.

I like how I wrote the sentence right after that to provide further context because I predicted that someone would make that reply, so you just opted to not include that part in the quote.

AcidicVision.5498:

This again? MF is fine. It lets people sack a stat that they may not need to get some other benefit. For example, a Warrior traited in to vitality that is good at mitigating damage might not need any more points in toughness or vitality. They would be wasted. The point of diminishing returns was hit.

So instead of padding a useless trait, they take gear that boosts their power and replaces the defensive trait with MF.

That trade-off doesn’t hurt anyone. Not one single person. it is not greedy or selfish that someone chooses to not bloat a stat that they don’t need.

The only way this opinion has ever held any sort of validity whatsoever is if you are comparing two players that are completely equal in skill and can play their class at 100% efficiency, 100% of the time. Then the one that takes MF is statistically less effective than the other. But that is never the case. So as always, this is just making fundamental attribution errors of players based on their gear choice.

See, this is the funny thing: Even some of the arguments for magic find are basically saying that it is pointless. I mean, if lowering another stat doesn’t make a practical difference, then why not just increase the base drop rates and not have magic find at all? If you have to sacrifice another stat to have it, but no other stat would make a difference, what is the point of having to give up another stat for it?

This is the fundamental question I don’t get: What is particularly appealing about magic find over just having a higher base drop rate? So you can farm better than other people without magic find? If it is so useful for farming, won’t all of the farmers be using it anyway? I really don’t understand the love of this stat from any angle.

Let me put this another way:

If you could have a 1% chance of an item dropping, or a 0.5% chance of it dropping, but then be able to double that to 1% by sacrificing some slice of your character’s fighting ability, why do you prefer the latter? What makes that a better game? Is it really a better game? Are you getting better gameplay out of it?

Signet of Forums.4397:

Better loot drops is not a playstyle. There are no skills that benefit from magic find. There is no role in a group that is better filled out by “speccing” into magic find. You can’t find a single enemy in the game where you would do better fighting against it, if only you had more magic find. That is contradictory to every other single stat you can choose. Every other stat is about being better at fighting. It’s a matter of how you want to do it. It’s not a different direct goal (winning fights), but rather the means to achieving it. Magic find is a different goal.

I admit that I was probably unclear with what I said. I was referring to play style as the way that people play. No matter what stats you have, you’re going to have a certain play style. Someone can prefer to find up close (or ranged) and still have MF. Play style is how you play your character based on the overall condition and build that you went with.

As far as build, I wasn’t referring to those cookie cutter builds that people use on here. A build is a build regardless of what stats are used. It may or may not be the best build but it’s still a build nonetheless.

I’ll also point out that the exotic traveler’s set gives 18% MF that’s built in as the third stat. You can easily not go with traveler’s to not sacrifice your cookie cutter build.

Signet of Forums.4397:

So let me get this straight: Your argument here is basically that there is not a sufficiently “substantial” (a rather subjective term, but you’ve rendered it a moot point) reason to run other stats over magic find? Just which side are you trying to argue for, anyway?

Yes, substantial is a subjective term. I will admit that. I was just referring that there needs to be enough evidence that you can prove one way or another beyond a reasonable doubt. I won’t go into the statistical which would likely make things clearer but confuse a lot of people who haven’t takes statistics courses.

I’m not trying to argue for either side since I don’t really care. I’m arguing because it’s a pet peeve of mine when people attempt to throw out something as fact when they’re basing it off opinions or observations from themselves or others. I haven’t seen a single detailed analysis done from either side. Someone did make an attempt but they based it over time which is ineffective since MF increases the chance to get rarer items rather than the quantity.

Signet of Forums.4397:

I like how I wrote the sentence right after that to provide further context because I predicted that someone would make that reply, so you just opted to not include that part in the quote.

I didn’t include it because I didn’t find it relevant at the time nor does it change the point I was discussing. If MF so cripples players like everyone makes it out to do, then this directly increases the games difficulty for those that use it and indirectly increases difficulty for those that they team with. The devs can then adjust monsters’ stats to make things easier. It’s no different than people using glass cannon type builds. Whatever build that some affects them directly and everyone else indirectly.

This is simply not going to happen.

Signet of Forums.4397:

See, this is the funny thing: Even some of the arguments for magic find are basically saying that it is pointless. I mean, if lowering another stat doesn’t make a practical difference, then why not just increase the base drop rates and not have magic find at all? If you have to sacrifice another stat to have it, but no other stat would make a difference, what is the point of having to give up another stat for it?

There is a difference between 0% MF and 200% MF to a lot of people. I argue that it doesn’t matter because stats only do so much and the majority of how well you perform is based on your skill with your class.

Signet of Forums.4397:

This is the fundamental question I don’t get: What is particularly appealing about magic find over just having a higher base drop rate? So you can farm better than other people without magic find? If it is so useful for farming, won’t all of the farmers be using it anyway? I really don’t understand the love of this stat from any angle.

From a technical standpoint, there isn’t a difference. It’s people’s perception that matters. By equipping MF gear they feel like they’re improving their odds. Think of it like what superstitious people do with good luck charms. It’s probably not the best explanation but I can’t really think of a good way to explain it.

Totally agree, its useless and a terrible game mechanic, i’d love to see it removed and loot tables repaired.. this is such a serious issue with this game..

Ayrilana.1396:

Yes, substantial is a subjective term. I will admit that. I was just referring that there needs to be enough evidence that you can prove one way or another beyond a reasonable doubt. I won’t go into the statistical which would likely make things clearer but confuse a lot of people who haven’t takes statistics courses.

No, please, bedazzle me with some math. As I have implied, though, I see it as bad either way – if other stats do make a substantial difference, or if they don’t. The only thing that changes is the reason that it is bad.

Signet of Forums.4397:

Ayrilana.1396:

Yes, substantial is a subjective term. I will admit that. I was just referring that there needs to be enough evidence that you can prove one way or another beyond a reasonable doubt. I won’t go into the statistical which would likely make things clearer but confuse a lot of people who haven’t takes statistics courses.

No, please, bedazzle me with some math. As I have implied, though, I see it as bad either way – if other stats do make a substantial difference, or if they don’t. The only thing that changes is the reason that it is bad.

I wasn’t referring to me doing the actual math. Whoever cares so much about one way or the other should go and do that. It’ll make their arguments hold more weight. I was talking about the process that someone would going through using statistics to “prove” something.

Player skill trumps player stats. It’s something that’s pretty evident without tests done to prove it. Now there is a time where this may not be the case but that’s because your stats are so low (i.e. lv10 vs lv80 in WvW). It comes down to whether the loss of other stats due to having MF will negatively affect your ability to function. This is where all of my arguments come in that people should test to see whether it does or not.

I think the problem here is more about playing with people that suck at their class. . .and then the OP wants to blame the MF stat. Either that or he played with some people, asked why they die so much and they used the MF gear excuse.

Either way, forcing your playstyle on someone else is wrong. If I want to pug in all blue gear I’m gonna do it. Either dont let me join or kick me out of the group, but dont tell me what kind of gear I can and can not wear.

Take MF away from gear and accessories. Only have it as consumables and boosters. Have the max % you can have for MF be the combination of highest food with highest booster combines and adjust drops to match that %.

Fair? Unfair?

Think of it this way…

-The guy that spend a lot of gold getting armor with good stats does more work.
-The guy who got a cheap set of magic find armor off the TP gets more drops.

That’s totally in line with Anet’s ‘playing with others should reward all players equally’ policy. Totally.

Rustypipes.6238:

We have a choice.

I said it.

You say having MF is greedy and not cool, but I think trying to force players who want MF to do away with and play the game you want it is not cool and selfish.

But isnt this a bit like the pot calling the kettle black. Think about it you pop into a dungeon with your mf gear. First your performance hinders your team and you get rewarded more for it than your team. This seems more selfish to me to be honest

Prove performance is hindered.

Ayrilana.1396:

Prove performance is hindered.

Lets use a example lets make it 2 elementalists just for agument sake. Exact same builds one in mf gear and the other not. Both target the same mob. the ele without the mf gear throws a fireball and hit and lets say it does full damage and then the same thing for the ele with the other gear.

You cannot honestly tell me the ele with the mf gear gonna do the same amount of damage as the ele without the mf gear. Its just not possible.

And there in lies the performance issue im talking about. you perform lower than the other ele and you get rewarded more. Now personally i dont really care having people with mf gear in my dungeon runs but numbers dont lie.

Also there is a easy solution for this take all the gear in the game and remove mf from it now add a mf slot much like the accended stuff to everything that way everyone wins

Osculim.2983:

Ayrilana.1396:

Prove performance is hindered.

Lets use a example lets make it 2 elementalists just for agument sake. Exact same builds one in mf gear and the other not. Both target the same mob. the ele without the mf gear throws a fireball and hit and lets say it does full damage and then the same thing for the ele with the other gear.

You cannot honestly tell me the ele with the mf gear gonna do the same amount of damage as the ele without the mf gear. Its just not possible.

And there in lies the performance issue im talking about. you perform lower than the other ele and you get rewarded more. Now personally i dont really care having people with mf gear in my dungeon runs but numbers dont lie.

Also there is a easy solution for this take all the gear in the game and remove mf from it now add a mf slot much like the accended stuff to everything that way everyone wins

How much of a damage drop or how much more damage do they take? I’m not refuting that there won’t be a change. I’m just suggesting that it won’t be a significant change to have an impact.

Skill > stats.

I love to wear a full set of MF gear while farming Karma. I wouldn’t want to do it any other way.

What is the real story here? Are people upset that others can wear a full mf set and out perform, or play equivalent to someone else in stacked out gear?

Think of it this way, the players wearing full MF gear while they farm should be, by far, better players than those who never do. Why? Because they have been able to succeed in ‘sub-par’ gear while you are moaning they aren’t in stacked stat gear to help you.

Instead of crying why other people aren’t playing the way you want them to play, maybe you tell them “Good job. It’s impressive how you can handle all of those mobs wearing MF gear. Man, I wish I could do that in my stacked stat gear”.

Think about this:
I do not run MF gear, can handle all those mobs and kill them in half the time you do.
Now where does your argument go?

AcidicVision.5498:

Osculim.2983:

You cannot honestly tell me the ele with the mf gear gonna do the same amount of damage as the ele without the mf gear. Its just not possible.

Yes it is. Maybe the Ele with Magic Find used it in place of a third stat toughness or vitality upgrade because they are better at mitigating their damage, managing their endurance and attunement dancing for defense. So they are still doing as much damage as the Ele without MF, they just didn’t upgrade wasted points in to a trait they didn’t need.

im talking purely stats on gear here all other variables are the same exact same build only difference gear and stats. lets narrow it down a bit say you strip a everything of em except you give the one power and the one magic find the power person obviously gonna do more damage

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

Think about this:
I do not run MF gear, can handle all those mobs and kill them in half the time you do.
Now where does your argument go?

Where’s the proof of this or is this just an exaggeration of an opinion?

I would also like to see MF go.

Ayrilana.1396:

Osculim.2983:

Ayrilana.1396:

Prove performance is hindered.

Lets use a example lets make it 2 elementalists just for agument sake. Exact same builds one in mf gear and the other not. Both target the same mob. the ele without the mf gear throws a fireball and hit and lets say it does full damage and then the same thing for the ele with the other gear.

You cannot honestly tell me the ele with the mf gear gonna do the same amount of damage as the ele without the mf gear. Its just not possible.

And there in lies the performance issue im talking about. you perform lower than the other ele and you get rewarded more. Now personally i dont really care having people with mf gear in my dungeon runs but numbers dont lie.

Also there is a easy solution for this take all the gear in the game and remove mf from it now add a mf slot much like the accended stuff to everything that way everyone wins

How much of a damage drop or how much more damage do they take? I’m not refuting that there won’t be a change. I’m just suggesting that it won’t be a significant change to have an impact.

Skill > stats.

Don’t get me wrong tho im well aware of skill and yes ive seen counless lvl80 full exotic geared groups wipe in dungeons while lower level people do the same dungeon with no problems.

Hehe, now players who run MF gear are the highly skilled elite…

One player who excels at a playstyle, a class, or a build is not the basis by which a judgement on overall usefulness or general effectiveness can be made.

Same argument all over these boards

AcidicVision.5498:

Osculim.2983:

You cannot honestly tell me the ele with the mf gear gonna do the same amount of damage as the ele without the mf gear. Its just not possible.

Yes it is. Maybe the Ele with Magic Find used it in place of a third stat toughness or vitality upgrade because they are better at mitigating their damage, managing their endurance and attunement dancing for defense. So they are still doing as much damage as the Ele without MF, they just didn’t upgrade wasted points in to a trait they didn’t need.

Just something that i like to mention here is say you do swap the 3rd stat say you sacrifice vitality for mf once again you made yourself weaker and easier to kill

Whelm.9072:

Hehe, now players who run MF gear are the highly skilled elite…

No. I’m just suggesting that they should not automatically be assumed to be a hindrance because they use MF gear. Skill needs to be taken into account and a lot of the “difficult” aspects of dungeons can be dealt with by skill alone. Using a blanket statement that all MF users are a hindrance is incorrect.

Whelm.9072:

One player who excels at a playstyle, a class, or a build is not the basis by which a judgement on overall usefulness or general effectiveness can be made

Nor is sacrificing part of one stat

Ayrilana.1396:

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

Think about this:
I do not run MF gear, can handle all those mobs and kill them in half the time you do.
Now where does your argument go?

Where’s the proof of this or is this just an exaggeration of an opinion?

If you ask for my opinion: I would not care either way. I have my people that I run dungeons with, and that is pretty much the only place where it matters if you run MF gear or not.

I just tried to give some basis for an own thought process there, instead of bathing in self-adulation.

Nearly all MF gear is offensive. It sacrifices defensive traits. A thief in MF can still have higher DPS than just about anything in the game besides glass cannon warriors, and then even losing MF wouldn’t bring them even.

So yes, a DPS spec’d character using MF will probably still kill more things faster because that’s how the upgrades are designed.

The more you guys try to argue your points the more I’m sure you actually have no idea how this stuff works.

Berserker gear gives you critical damage instead of magic find, you do not sacrifice defensive stats at all.

Plus, the biggest MF boost is actually received with the rune set, and you can pretty much put anything in there, from defensive to offensive.

My biggest gripe with MF is that too many people ware it in dungeon groups.

IMO if you go to a dungeon you should be as equipped as you possible can out of respect to your fellow players fighting by your side. Dropping dps or survivability stats in order to grab MF on your gear is disrespectful and slows down your group and gimps yours aswell as your groups dps.

If the game had a nice inspect button, even if it was just to show your magic find stat I’d be happy. It would mean I could chose not to group with MF people if I dont want to.

Using MF food is all ok in my book, either the MF+dps food or the MF+GF food, the stats matter very litte there. But dropping all of your crit damage or a defensive stat in order to field a MF set is not ok.

AcidicVision.5498:

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

Berserker gear gives you critical damage instead of magic find, you do not sacrifice defensive stats at all.

Opal gemstones are MF/Pwr/Pre.
Crests are MF/Pwr/Pre.
Runes are condition dmg, pwr, or might duration + MF. (there is one with vitality, being the exception).

Magic find gear and upgrades are by and large offensive upgrades.

Much like Berserker gear sacrifices defensive traits for critical damage, MF upgrades sacrifice defensive traits for magic find % increase.

Is that clearer?

A player using MF is not sacrificing killing potential. Especially if he has min/maxed pwr/crit%. But survivability is more reliant on individual skill.

I see your point, but I was comparing MF with Berserker gear, not Berserker to other more defensive gear.
And in that regard, a full berserker geared character would sacrifice killing potential, a lot of it at that