Guild Wars 2

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

TwoBit.5903:

The question remains as to why there are places where mobs can be safely attacked. I know GW2s maps are big and all, and that the developers can’t account for every of every map, but still. Why pick a system the game can’t support without resorting to this infuriating mechanic?

Please note, you can technically still kill something like this, with enough damage getting done. I’ve had to do it twice in Thaumanova’s “Ice Sector” to have any hope of getting across a couple jumps where Elementals were waiting. It is not easy.

Sounds like a loophole to a workaround to unimaginative design. Why is it like that in the first place? That’s my question really.

TwoBit.5903:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

TwoBit.5903:

The question remains as to why there are places where mobs can be safely attacked. I know GW2s maps are big and all, and that the developers can’t account for every of every map, but still. Why pick a system the game can’t support without resorting to this infuriating mechanic?

Please note, you can technically still kill something like this, with enough damage getting done. I’ve had to do it twice in Thaumanova’s “Ice Sector” to have any hope of getting across a couple jumps where Elementals were waiting. It is not easy.

Sounds like a loophole to a workaround to unimaginative design. Why is it like that in the first place? That’s my question really.

Why is which like that? Enemies where they can’t reach you except at range or the fast regeneration which used to be “Invulnerable” back in Beta? Cause I can answer the second one.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

TwoBit.5903:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

TwoBit.5903:

The question remains as to why there are places where mobs can be safely attacked. I know GW2s maps are big and all, and that the developers can’t account for every of every map, but still. Why pick a system the game can’t support without resorting to this infuriating mechanic?

Please note, you can technically still kill something like this, with enough damage getting done. I’ve had to do it twice in Thaumanova’s “Ice Sector” to have any hope of getting across a couple jumps where Elementals were waiting. It is not easy.

Sounds like a loophole to a workaround to unimaginative design. Why is it like that in the first place? That’s my question really.

Why is which like that? Enemies where they can’t reach you except at range or the fast regeneration which used to be “Invulnerable” back in Beta? Cause I can answer the second one.

You said technically kill something like that. I assumed the something like that is a mob that’s under the effects of mob invulnerability, therefore a loophole to that workaround.

What I’m asking is why didn’t the developers take into account the entire thing and design around it. And by design I don’t mean leave it as is but put a mechanism to stop it. I mean actually designing encounters to take into account the terrain.

TwoBit.5903:

You said technically kill something like that. I assumed the something like that is a mob that’s under the effects of mob invulnerability, therefore a loophole to that workaround.

That’s because it’s not true invulnerability, it’s super-sped-up regeneration. You can drop higher rates of DPS on a target which would otherwise be “invulnerable” and kill it. In later areas, a bunch of people on a rock could technically do it.

Of course, it might be considered exploiting. It has always been considered it before this game, even if it worked. (See: “Killing the Sleeper” in EverQuest 1)

What I’m asking is why didn’t the developers take into account the entire thing and design around it. And by design I don’t mean leave it as is but put a mechanism to stop it. I mean actually designing encounters to take into account the terrain.

In short, because there’s too many variables to consider and not enough time to run around testing every single iteration where it could be made “more interesting” to take into account the terrain.

I also considered another fix which probably didn’t work: if mobs could jump properly and make jumps across gaps, then this problem would not exist. Therefore, something prevents the system from working properly if they do.

Also it is worth noting if a mob has a ranged attack, it will try to path to somewhere it can shoot you. If it can’t shoot you, it regenerates until you step into range again. This is not the same as the “over-zealous leash” the Giant Arctic Jellyfish are on.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That’s because it’s not true invulnerability, it’s super-sped-up regeneration. You can drop higher rates of DPS on a target which would otherwise be “invulnerable” and kill it. In later areas, a bunch of people on a rock could technically do it.

That’s what I assumed, and it’s still a loophole to the intention of the design.

And I don’t think you need to go around and check every little tiny detail to make to find another way to do it completely; that’s why I said “unimaginative.” For one thing, I don’t think players would mind the removal of randomly roaming mobs. Players rarely ever attack them anyway and they serve little purpose other than to slow you down when you try to run past them. Why not let players spawn their own mobs in some fashion. You can already do this with certain heart quests objectives, so why not take it a step further and let them do it in appropriate areas (no safe spots) with reasonable conditions? It may even add a bit of interactivity to they very static world ANet has built. At the very least, I’m sure it would remove a bit of stress on the servers if there are fewer mobs roaming around and all.

TwoBit.5903:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That’s because it’s not true invulnerability, it’s super-sped-up regeneration. You can drop higher rates of DPS on a target which would otherwise be “invulnerable” and kill it. In later areas, a bunch of people on a rock could technically do it.

That’s what I assumed, and it’s still a loophole to the intention of the design.

And I don’t think you need to go around and check every little tiny detail to make to find another way to do it completely; that’s why I said “unimaginative.” For one thing, I don’t think players would mind the removal of randomly roaming mobs. Players rarely ever attack them anyway and they serve little purpose other than to slow you down when you try to run past them. Why not let players spawn their own mobs in some fashion. You can already do this with certain heart quests objectives, so why not take it a step further and let them do it in appropriate areas (no safe spots) with reasonable conditions? It may even add a bit of interactivity to they very static world ANet has built. At the very least, I’m sure it would remove a bit of stress on the servers if there are fewer mobs roaming around and all.

Interesting thoughts. However, part of my tired brain is instinctively protesting it’s not a good idea, but I can’t sift through for why right now. Ah well.

Quick Mouse.7635:

This game does not want you to attack mobs from a location on the map where they can’t fight back. They had a lot of problems with this in gw1. As a result, they introduced this. I think this is fair.

So you think its fair for mobs to be able to hit you with range attacks and do damage while being invulnerable themselves? I find that hard to believe.

Rifter.6591:

Quick Mouse.7635:

This game does not want you to attack mobs from a location on the map where they can’t fight back. They had a lot of problems with this in gw1. As a result, they introduced this. I think this is fair.

So you think its fair for mobs to be able to hit you with range attacks and do damage while being invulnerable themselves? I find that hard to believe.

I think a lot of things may be slightly unfair. Stealth-using mobs, one-hit kills from Champion Risen Abombinations, and the fact asura haven’t been subjected to genocide yet for being smug and insufferable.

I also understand what I find unfair is often not the same as what other people think of as unfair. (“Of course it’s fair my thief can one-two-three you into downed, then finish from stealth. Learn to play!”)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rifter.6591:

Quick Mouse.7635:

This game does not want you to attack mobs from a location on the map where they can’t fight back. They had a lot of problems with this in gw1. As a result, they introduced this. I think this is fair.

So you think its fair for mobs to be able to hit you with range attacks and do damage while being invulnerable themselves? I find that hard to believe.

I think a lot of things may be slightly unfair. Stealth-using mobs, one-hit kills from Champion Risen Abombinations, and the fact asura haven’t been subjected to genocide yet for being smug and insufferable.

I also understand what I find unfair is often not the same as what other people think of as unfair. (“Of course it’s fair my thief can one-two-three you into downed, then finish from stealth. Learn to play!”)

To clairify i dont really have a issue if the mob is not ranged, but if it is and is doing damage to me i had kitten well better be able to do damage to it. This would be such a simple tag to add to the code i dont understand why this is such a hard fix for anet to make.

Rifter.6591:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rifter.6591:

Quick Mouse.7635:

This game does not want you to attack mobs from a location on the map where they can’t fight back. They had a lot of problems with this in gw1. As a result, they introduced this. I think this is fair.

So you think its fair for mobs to be able to hit you with range attacks and do damage while being invulnerable themselves? I find that hard to believe.

I think a lot of things may be slightly unfair. Stealth-using mobs, one-hit kills from Champion Risen Abombinations, and the fact asura haven’t been subjected to genocide yet for being smug and insufferable.

I also understand what I find unfair is often not the same as what other people think of as unfair. (“Of course it’s fair my thief can one-two-three you into downed, then finish from stealth. Learn to play!”)

To clairify i dont really have a issue if the mob is not ranged, but if it is and is doing damage to me i had kitten well better be able to do damage to it. This would be such a simple tag to add to the code i dont understand why this is such a hard fix for anet to make.

If a creature was hitting me with a ranged attack, I haven’t had the displeasure of finding one I couldn’t hit back.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rifter.6591:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rifter.6591:

Quick Mouse.7635:

This game does not want you to attack mobs from a location on the map where they can’t fight back. They had a lot of problems with this in gw1. As a result, they introduced this. I think this is fair.

So you think its fair for mobs to be able to hit you with range attacks and do damage while being invulnerable themselves? I find that hard to believe.

I think a lot of things may be slightly unfair. Stealth-using mobs, one-hit kills from Champion Risen Abombinations, and the fact asura haven’t been subjected to genocide yet for being smug and insufferable.

I also understand what I find unfair is often not the same as what other people think of as unfair. (“Of course it’s fair my thief can one-two-three you into downed, then finish from stealth. Learn to play!”)

To clairify i dont really have a issue if the mob is not ranged, but if it is and is doing damage to me i had kitten well better be able to do damage to it. This would be such a simple tag to add to the code i dont understand why this is such a hard fix for anet to make.

If a creature was hitting me with a ranged attack, I haven’t had the displeasure of finding one I couldn’t hit back.

I will see if i can get it on video its not hard to accomplish with the right situation, i just bought the full version of fraps so now have the ability to record gameplay. I will see if i can get a vid up on the weekend. I just started my 4 day work week of 12 hour shifts so obviously wont have any guild wars time till thursday but will attempt to make my first GW2 video then to highlight this issue.

I would be impressed to see this too – it seems like the over-simple system wouldn’t generally allow for that… because the whole thing is oversimplified down to “Can hit? No. Go Inv.” and you are suggesting the “Can Hit? Yes. No. Go Inv.” cycles in effect.

I think part of the difficulty in documenting this “bug” is that its behaviour was very subtly modified a patch or two ago. Whereas before, these pathing/targeting issues would manifest with a clear “Invulnerable” message flashing on the screen; now what seems to happen is that the afflicted NPC will suddenly begin regenerating its health at a greatly accelerated rate.

It is entirely possible that this is occuring due to some NPC’s having an unusually short/bugged “leash” distance. However, sometimes it happens for no obvious reason, usually in response to a ranged player attack.

Mayhap there is some correlation between this and the bizarre “obstructed” and “out of range” glitches that will occur during ranged combat + the sometimes bizarre ways autotargeting will select unwanted targets.

Line of sight doesn’t seem to be this game’s strong suit.

Rifter.6591:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

If a creature was hitting me with a ranged attack, I haven’t had the displeasure of finding one I couldn’t hit back.

I will see if i can get it on video its not hard to accomplish with the right situation, i just bought the full version of fraps so now have the ability to record gameplay. I will see if i can get a vid up on the weekend. I just started my 4 day work week of 12 hour shifts so obviously wont have any guild wars time till thursday but will attempt to make my first GW2 video then to highlight this issue.

I’ll look for the video. Take your time, and leave it on the bug forum too. If it is a bug, putting it there means it’s more likely it’ll be seen.

I just finished my work week for the next couple days, so I should be able to do more than “pop on, fool around for a bit doing Daily and a few choice battles, crawl into bed until the morning comes”.

Unless the Minecraft server I admin on explodes. (This is not a nonzero probability.)

Akhellan.4180:

Line of sight doesn’t seem to be this game’s strong suit.

This line makes me pine for the days when I used to be interested in wargaming until I watched dice being thrown over “line of sight” disagreements followed by “fine, take your roll” . . . and the target getting obliterated.

Honestly, I just wonder if I’m instinctively moving away from instances where this might trigger. Though as I’d said, mobs with ranged attacks seem less likely to have this sort of thing happen.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Akhellan.4180:

Line of sight doesn’t seem to be this game’s strong suit.

This line makes me pine for the days when I used to be interested in wargaming until I watched dice being thrown over “line of sight” disagreements followed by “fine, take your roll” . . . and the target getting obliterated.

Honestly, I just wonder if I’m instinctively moving away from instances where this might trigger. Though as I’d said, mobs with ranged attacks seem less likely to have this sort of thing happen.

Hehe, indeed. It may just be some glitchiness in the AI that’s hard to nail down. I really do not envy the devs job when it comes to things like this.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

If a creature was hitting me with a ranged attack, I haven’t had the displeasure of finding one I couldn’t hit back.

It happens all the time in the Rata Sum fractal. It gets double annoying because those mobs (that have ranged attacks) also have AoE knockback attacks (which have circles that are very hard to see on very small platforms) and you can only damage them if the entire team stands next to them on their own platform.

And the best thing, if you get thrown off, they can still hit you when you’re at the res point.

ThiBash.5634:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

If a creature was hitting me with a ranged attack, I haven’t had the displeasure of finding one I couldn’t hit back.

It happens all the time in the Rata Sum fractal. It gets double annoying because those mobs (that have ranged attacks) also have AoE knockback attacks (which have circles that are very hard to see on very small platforms) and you can only damage them if the entire team stands next to them on their own platform.

And the best thing, if you get thrown off, they can still hit you when you’re at the res point.

Please note, I’ve said a lot of times . . . I have done that fractal exactly once, and it has never come up instead. If we had been talking about swamp? Yes, I get that almost every time. Uncategorized? Not more than once.

dont thank ANET – thank the exploiters

Cures.7451:

dont thank ANET – thank the exploiters

Not just in this game, but in every game ever

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Please note, I’ve said a lot of times . . . I have done that fractal exactly once, and it has never come up instead. If we had been talking about swamp? Yes, I get that almost every time. Uncategorized? Not more than once.

Understandable. I didn’t post to say “OMG, U R WRONGZ N00B!”. I merely wanted to share a situation in which the Invulnerability mechanic makes it very tough to progress when it kicks in.

The funny thing is, that most gamers would love to have games where terrain plays an integral role. Instead, we get the same old permastun/instagib ‘challenges’. This forces players to flee into exploits (which do use the terrain) which then get fixed and take even more possibilities out of the game.

My main gripe is that, when I use skill and smarts to beat an enemy, I get punished by game mechanics whereas if I facetank it, I can beat it.

ThiBash.5634:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Please note, I’ve said a lot of times . . . I have done that fractal exactly once, and it has never come up instead. If we had been talking about swamp? Yes, I get that almost every time. Uncategorized? Not more than once.

Understandable. I didn’t post to say “OMG, U R WRONGZ N00B!”. I merely wanted to share a situation in which the Invulnerability mechanic makes it very tough to progress when it kicks in.

The funny thing is, that most gamers would love to have games where terrain plays an integral role. Instead, we get the same old permastun/instagib ‘challenges’. This forces players to flee into exploits (which do use the terrain) which then get fixed and take even more possibilities out of the game.

My main gripe is that, when I use skill and smarts to beat an enemy, I get punished by game mechanics whereas if I facetank it, I can beat it.

Agreed. In many games terrain isn’t something that’s there to look pretty, it’s there to provide strategies. Players are supposed to feel smart using tools, not punished for it.

TwoBit.5903:

ThiBash.5634:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Please note, I’ve said a lot of times . . . I have done that fractal exactly once, and it has never come up instead. If we had been talking about swamp? Yes, I get that almost every time. Uncategorized? Not more than once.

Understandable. I didn’t post to say “OMG, U R WRONGZ N00B!”. I merely wanted to share a situation in which the Invulnerability mechanic makes it very tough to progress when it kicks in.

The funny thing is, that most gamers would love to have games where terrain plays an integral role. Instead, we get the same old permastun/instagib ‘challenges’. This forces players to flee into exploits (which do use the terrain) which then get fixed and take even more possibilities out of the game.

My main gripe is that, when I use skill and smarts to beat an enemy, I get punished by game mechanics whereas if I facetank it, I can beat it.

Agreed. In many games terrain isn’t something that’s there to look pretty, it’s there to provide strategies. Players are supposed to feel smart using tools, not punished for it.

Fair enough. However . . .

What happens when a smart, cunning, skilled player can basically walk all over your game? What positive effects . . . as a whole, does that have if they learn early on all they need to do is stand where something can’t hit them and hit the monsters back?

More to the point, what happens when you have that going on in a game where one group of players who can pretty much farm with impunity are playing alongside ones who don’t? Or more to the point, if everyone does it and there is no challenge?

We saw back in early GW1 the proliferation of certain farming builds because they were super efficient and almost unstoppable. I say “almost” because they required a lot of skill to pull off, and an intricate use of the system. But once you knew how? As many Ectoplasms as you had time to go farm. Or other objects, with no risk to you.

Aside from self-benefits, exactly how does this make the game better?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

What happens when a smart, cunning, skilled player can basically walk all over your game? What positive effects . . . as a whole, does that have if they learn early on all they need to do is stand where something can’t hit them and hit the monsters back?

When a game is properly designed, this doesn’t happen. And if every monster had a ranged attack, this would literally never happen.

Pathing-based invulnerability is a cheap mechanic that doesn’t always work properly, resulting in it triggering in odd places and at times when it shouldn’t.

As I know I’ve said multiple times, I’d had it incorrectly trigger while I stood right next to a mob, simply because the mob was engaging me in underwater melee and our z-axis didn’t match up perfectly, so the game thought I was trying to “cheat” and slapped invulnerability on him….until it realized that we were both still hitting each other, then it would go back off. Then back on. And so on, until I gave up and readjusted myself so the game would properly read us as both in combat.

In fact the game struggles to understand “combat” in general, as it often will still think I’m in combat long after I’ve fled from a mob’s aggro range.

I have never experienced this same problem on any mob with ranged attacks.

It’s clearly not working the way it should, and ranged attacking allows them to escape this hazard, so why not get rid of it and slap ranged attacks on everyone?

More to the point, what happens when you have that going on in a game where one group of players who can pretty much farm with impunity are playing alongside ones who don’t? Or more to the point, if everyone does it and there is no challenge?

We saw back in early GW1 the proliferation of certain farming builds because they were super efficient and almost unstoppable. I say “almost” because they required a lot of skill to pull off, and an intricate use of the system. But once you knew how? As many Ectoplasms as you had time to go farm. Or other objects, with no risk to you.

Aside from self-benefits, exactly how does this make the game better?

We already have all of that in this game.

How is the removal of a bugged mechanic going to change this fact?

critickitten.1498:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

What happens when a smart, cunning, skilled player can basically walk all over your game? What positive effects . . . as a whole, does that have if they learn early on all they need to do is stand where something can’t hit them and hit the monsters back?

When a game is properly designed, this doesn’t happen. And if every monster had a ranged attack, this would literally never happen.

When a game is properly designed? I have not seen many games where the developers anticipated everything possible a player could do.

Mind you, while your quick proposal is a fix, it runs into other problems from the top of my head. That a monster meant to have brute strength but short range now has longer range than it should. Broken monster now needs redesign . . . we start approaching a point where there’s not much difference between attack sets.

I prefer having distinct monsters who don’t have access to ranged attacks. I would like intelligent mobs like Flame Legion to have the option to switch to bows or rifles or something. I don’t know if this code is possible.

- pause -

Devs, is it possible? That’s be great to see them actually having the power to swap weapons mid-combat like a player for a greater challenge. You did this before in War in Kryta where you went all-out and made dual-profession enemies which were then a considerable challenge.

Pathing-based invulnerability is a cheap mechanic that doesn’t always work properly, resulting in it triggering in odd places and at times when it shouldn’t.

As I know I’ve said multiple times, I’d had it incorrectly trigger while I stood right next to a mob, simply because the mob was engaging me in underwater melee and our z-axis didn’t match up perfectly, so the game thought I was trying to “cheat” and slapped invulnerability on him….until it realized that we were both still hitting each other, then it would go back off. Then back on. And so on, until I gave up and readjusted myself so the game would properly read us as both in combat.

Big question. Have you /bug reported it each time with a photo of the invulnerability?

In fact the game struggles to understand “combat” in general, as it often will still think I’m in combat long after I’ve fled from a mob’s aggro range.

I find it counts any conditions on you as a sign you are still “engaged”. And if the leash for a monster is set far, then it will still take a while for you to be out of combat. Also, something else might have tagged you. I’ve actually been “out of combat” in a huge WvW melee a couple times because literally nothing was hitting me.

More to the point, what happens when you have that going on in a game where one group of players who can pretty much farm with impunity are playing alongside ones who don’t? Or more to the point, if everyone does it and there is no challenge?

We saw back in early GW1 the proliferation of certain farming builds because they were super efficient and almost unstoppable. I say “almost” because they required a lot of skill to pull off, and an intricate use of the system. But once you knew how? As many Ectoplasms as you had time to go farm. Or other objects, with no risk to you.

Aside from self-benefits, exactly how does this make the game better?

We already have all of that in this game.

How is the removal of a bugged mechanic going to change this fact?

That depends on how it’s removed, doesn’t it? Also, you skirted the question with a toss-aside comment.

Aside from self-benefits, exactly how does this make the game better? And from a different angle:

Is it worthwhile to open the door to more exploits or balancing issues to handle this in that fashion?