Guild Wars 2

Coming from 6 years of playing GW1 voraciously for thousands of hours, i dont need care-bear reward systems, reasons to get me back out into a shallow world. I want well designed encounters, a skill system that makes me think, a class system that actually sets up real roles and makes me rely on other players in an [MMO] ( this is an MMO, not a single-player game in case developers forgot), a trait / customization system that gives me a ridiculous amount of options and depth, not a pigeonholed experience that shows obvious lack of forethought.

And for so many other reasons that i can’t bear to list…

This game’s combat is the weakest link ive ever seen in an MMO.

This game will never retain or start an e-sports community because control point as the only mode is just not fun. When you can’t allow any other mode because your skill system is shallow and gimmicky, you know you have no chance.

You can’t even get players to PvP much less pay real money or farm a ridiculous amount to get in paid tournaments. Paid servers? What happened to GW1? This isn’t Team Fortress. This isn’t LoL. This game will never be an esport.

The combat is the biggest problem in this game and it bleeds over into everything social.

- No reason to group outside of dungeons.
- No set roles, encounters are faceroll and feel weird with trinity..half-removed.
- Groups are just heaping on numbers, not strategic depth or engagement.
- Content structure doesn’t encourage players playing together.
- Skill system is shallow and restrictive.
- Traits are busted, buggy, and ill-conceived.
- Combat, encounters, grouping feels meaningless to the average newcomer, so less relationships, memories, etc. are formed than in traditional MMOs.
-Many features (lack of LFG tool, Ascended gear), blunders (FoTM, Lost Shores), and miscalculations in reward systems (I killed 5 veteran Karka in a row and got not 1 single drop) serve only to alienate players.
The multiple guild feature destroys any social foundation the game may have.
- The combat makes WvW an absolute zergfest.

So, what was the benefit of designing the game like this? More cash up front from a more broad playerbase than GW1, but a busted up game with players leaving in droves afterward?

What are you doing ArenaNet? Work on the *-** combat mechanics, character progression, skills, etc.

THE STUFF THAT PLAYERS GIVE A kitten ABOUT.

COMBAT.

I don’t think the combat is the games weakest point, but I honestly thought Anet was joking when they said they were planning to make Gw2 a E-Sport :/
Honestly can’t see it happening with how the classes are right now.

Games that are in E-sports are run by teams that specifically focus on balancing classes/characters/items and etc…. But gw2 is a MMO it’s design team will be and should be focusing on content updates, it also has a massive amount of RNG in it’s combat system (which really pulls the string on the E-sport potential to be honest).

Considering how grouping and combat felt in this game’s predecessor, this game feels like a casual joke. There is literally no reason to group in the overworld. It’s like a fighter game. The classes all have flavor differences but the underlying structure is far more shallow than traditional MMOs. This game may have lots of players playing alongside each other but the events are just trivial zergfests. Not challenging, not well thought out, they don’t foster strategy or any real thought, the combat is braindead. No reason to rely on any class or any player by association, this is not an MMO game. It feels like a ridiculous joke with an overbearing cash shop. This game is not even fun, most people i know agree, it’s just a cleverly disguised grind.

Such a blatant lack of understanding of this game’s mechanics does not give much credibility to this thread.

It’s even more sad coming from a GW1 player where each class used to use maximum 20 skills in Vanilla, where attributes had no influence at all on the gameplay, and where you could not swap skills on the fly. On a single Fractal run I may use up to 30 different skills with my Mesmer, depending on the ennemies, my group needs, and the situation.

This game’s mechanics are much, much deeper than GW1, so complex in fact that it’s hard to really understand them all.

How is dodging red circles, spamming DPS, and self-healing when low deeper than the team / skill synergy in GW1?

I can solo champions on my Guardian with nothing on but a helmet, socks, and underwear.

Traits don’t make distinct builds…They don’t even work half the time. Well, i take that back, the Writ hammer build for Guardian is quite nice and actually feels like a worthwhile spec. There aren’t many builds like this in the game with the same degree of tangible effectiveness, especially in group play.

Roles are very homogenized, almost nonexistent.

Teamplay depth is very shallow and more coincidental than conscious, like, you know, in games that are deep and require mental aptitude?

Attributes have very little sway in this game as well.

full P/V/T spec can take maybe 1 or 2 hits over a glass cannon spec played well.

Roles, specs, playstyles are all so homogenized and unstructured in this game, it takes some real delusion to miss this.

Ouroboros.5076:

Such a blatant lack of understanding of this game’s mechanics does not give much credibility to this thread.

It’s even more sad coming from a GW1 player where each class used to use maximum 20 skills in Vanilla, where attributes had no influence at all on the gameplay, and where you could not swap skills on the fly. On a single Fractal run I may use up to 30 different skills with my Mesmer, depending on the ennemies, my group needs, and the situation.

This game’s mechanics are much, much deeper than GW1, so complex in fact that it’s hard to really understand them all.

Also, i welcome you to objectively deconstruct any of my points / inferences and prove me 100% wrong in anything i’ve said.

Ouroboros.5076:

Such a blatant lack of understanding of this game’s mechanics does not give much credibility to this thread.

It’s even more sad coming from a GW1 player where each class used to use maximum 20 skills in Vanilla, where attributes had no influence at all on the gameplay, and where you could not swap skills on the fly. On a single Fractal run I may use up to 30 different skills with my Mesmer, depending on the ennemies, my group needs, and the situation.

This game’s mechanics are much, much deeper than GW1, so complex in fact that it’s hard to really understand them all.

To quote Steve McCroskey: “Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue”…
Did I really just read that???

Ouroboros.5076:

Such a blatant lack of understanding of this game’s mechanics does not give much credibility to this thread.

Don’t use words like blatant, if you then don’t actually give any reason why. That means you are building on assumptions

Ouroboros.5076:

It’s even more sad coming from a GW1 player where each class used to use maximum 20 skills in Vanilla, where attributes had no influence at all on the gameplay, and where you could not swap skills on the fly. On a single Fractal run I may use up to 30 different skills with my Mesmer, depending on the ennemies, my group needs, and the situation.

This shows a lack of understanding of GW1 mechanics. The attributes powered different skill lines and definitely had an effect on the game. Your reference to Vanilla is pointless. People have played MMOs before. You can’t start at zero anymore nowadays. Games need to deliver more at start.

A single fractal run means hours going through levels of the same dungeon. That is not a reasonable comparison. The fact that you could not swap skills on the fly meant you had to do the entire area or dungeon with that same skill set. That takes some planning and consideration and team builds also mattered. Again, you show little understanding of GW1 mechanics. Also in GW1 you could change your attributes and skill sets in a matter of seconds in towns….for free. Compare that to switching traits, because attributes in GW1 took the place of traits and in GW1 you could swap much more easily, making it more dynamic on that level.

Ouroboros.5076:

This game’s mechanics are much, much deeper than GW1, so complex in fact that it’s hard to really understand them all.

They are not deeper. That’s a statement and you give no evidence to support it. The reason it’s hard to understand the GW2 combat system is not complexity but lack of transparency and skills not working as they should.

The big issue with the combat system is that the skill bar in GW2 is less flexible. You are forced to take an elite and a heal skill. You are limited by weapon choice and usually get skills you don’t want or need from them. CD’s are much higher than in GW1 and this is the price you pay for being able to swap skills between combat. I find it funny that you say you use up to 30 skills, but the truth is that you barely have 30 skills and I am pretty sure this only applies on higher level fractals. Also fractals is a minute part of the whole game. And in the remaining 99% of the game (assuming that you really need to swap skills so much, cause I wouldn’t know) you don’t need to swap skills and it doesn’t really matter what your trait choices are. The idea that in fractals you may have to and that it’s then the only place in the game where it really matters is sad really.

Depth comes not just from layers but also from meaning. If taking 5 points out of a trait line and putting them somewhere else without really creating much of a difference, it means it lacks meaning. If you don’t notice the changes and can do most content with auto attack and dodge, ress and a heal skill and that that goes for all classes in the game, I consider that a lack of depth in the combat system and that’s how I experienced GW2. They balanced everything so much that the differences are also too small to notice. And still some people complain about certain classes being OP but it’s mostly about stuns, stealth and such. So the game has similar complaints but lacks meaning in its combat system.

That is my view. Is it worse than the horrid story lines and the superficial feel of the world? Dunno. Is it worse than the endgame grind? Dunno either, but it certainly is a big issue and one of the main reasons I’ve stopped playing, hoping that one day Anet will improve things. Time will tell.

@Gehenna : Spot on about what I feel too.
I didn’t touch GW2 for 3 monthes, waiting for a glimpse of a hint about some complexity being added in mechanics. Still waiting …. :/
Man I love this game’s world, graphics, ambience, animations, music… and even the core mechanics (boons/conditions are clever). So being left with so few choices, it’s really frusrating.

Gehenna.3625:

If taking 5 points out of a trait line and putting them somewhere else without really creating much of a difference, it means it lacks meaning.

I have to disagree with this specific part and your reasoning Of course changing 5 trait points (out of 70) won’t create a major different. It shouldn’t.

However, choosing to spend 30 points in one line vs 30 points in another changes your character’s playstyle a huge amount. I think you’re severely underscoring the variability of the trait system by making a statement like what you just said.

Ouroboros.5076:

Such a blatant lack of understanding of this game’s mechanics does not give much credibility to this thread.

It’s even more sad coming from a GW1 player where each class used to use maximum 20 skills in Vanilla, where attributes had no influence at all on the gameplay, and where you could not swap skills on the fly. On a single Fractal run I may use up to 30 different skills with my Mesmer, depending on the ennemies, my group needs, and the situation.

This game’s mechanics are much, much deeper than GW1, so complex in fact that it’s hard to really understand them all.

This is so completely true.

There is an entire other layer underneath the surface appearance of the combat skills. I probably take months of play to understand them all.

I just made a thread in the suggestions forum bringing some of these issues up. I. Could. Not. Agree. More!

I’m seriously starting to suspect that this game was originally designed with a level cap of 30, that was later stretched to 80 and padded out with those, “Ill conceived” traits that you mentioned.

I would do anything to see a reimagined trait/progression/skill system.

Players from classic MMOs who don’t want to understand anything more complex than “tank/DPS/healer” settings don’t know how the combat system in GW2 works, so they keep pointing flaws that do not exist.

For example, some people assume the game has been balanced around dodge. Those players usually don’t understand the game as well as they think. The fight against Alpha, in Crucible of Eternity path 2, has been mentioned a few times here as one of the most difficult boss fights in the game. A lot of people use dodge to stay alive there. However, when you understand how that fight works, there is no need to dodge at all. ArenaNet could add an environment effect that negates all endurance and a group of players who knew what they were doing would still be able to defeat that boss, without the need to death zerg or any other similar trick. However, ArenaNet doesn’t do that considering how many people don’t understand that dodge isn’t the mechanic GW2 has been balanced around.

To give one more example: In other topic, I saw someone using the Graveling Scavangers to demonstrated how “broken” the combat system is. The Scavangers have a charged attack in which, if they hit, they knock a character down and basically kill it while it’s on the ground. The poster was using them as a way to illustrate how combat is either DPS – and you kill them before they use this attack – or dodge – the only way to avoid this attack – or you die, no other option available.

That comment showed a profound lack of knowledge about the game.

Against the Graveling Scavangers, a character can:

• Interrupt the charging animation. Any kind of crowd control works for this.

• If the character cannot interrupt the attack, use some kind of defensive skill to prevent the attack from hitting. Aegis for Guardians, Mist Form for Elementalists, and so on.

• If the attack cannot be defended against, use some source of Stability to prevent the knock down and thus avoid the killing attacks.

• If the character cannot prevent the knock down and is actually thrown on the ground, use any kind of stun breaker to leave the knocked down state and just walk away from the killing attacks.

• If a character cannot do any of that… Just ask for help. Party members can do all of the above, plus interrupt the killing attacks themselves.

Dodge is not the only, nor the best, way to avoid taking damage. It’s likely the simplest, which has led some players to assume it’s the only one.

The GW2 combat system is one of the best aspects of the game. I have said the exact same thing before, when replying to the same pointless criticism. Claiming otherwise over and over and over won’t make it anything more than a proof of absolute lack of knowledge about this game.

Ursan.7846:

Gehenna.3625:

If taking 5 points out of a trait line and putting them somewhere else without really creating much of a difference, it means it lacks meaning.

I have to disagree with this specific part and your reasoning Of course changing 5 trait points (out of 70) won’t create a major different. It shouldn’t.

However, choosing to spend 30 points in one line vs 30 points in another changes your character’s playstyle a huge amount. I think you’re severely underscoring the variability of the trait system by making a statement like what you just said.

To some degree, it is an under-scoring. Then again, the specs that traits create don’t always make distinct roles or playstyles. There are only so many permutations that are viable because the majority of the depth in this game is in the traits and not in the skills like GW1, which is a problem. So in group play, these specs are often meaningless because they aren’t absolutely 100% necessary like taking Foul Feast on a Necromancer in GW1 PvP was. Both of these cause problems, but i feel the problem of meaninglessness and lack of tangible effectiveness in group scenario / encounter scenario…well, it creates a very casual, kitten poor, boring combat experience and makes the game feel like it wasn’t properly conceptualized without the trinity mechanics.

Have to agree with this especially with the lack of roles, there’s no depth to the action in GW2 like we had in GW1

I’m always laughing when people take one of the strongest points in the game and claim it’s the weakest.

GW2 has a really solid combat system that can be expanded upon, but is already the best in the genre. I totally support making it even better, but I don’t support an overhaul for the worst.

Erasculio.2914:

Players from classic MMOs who don’t want to understand anything more complex than “tank/DPS/healer” settings don’t know how the combat system in GW2 works, so they keep pointing flaws that do not exist.

I could do it backwards :

Players from arcade games who don’t want to understand anything more complex than “push button A now !” settings don’t know how a proper combat complexity works, so they keep being happy with 4-5 skills.

I’m sorry if some are not understanding how we could feel this game is too much arcadish and not enough complex, but no offense : we already played beat ‘em up before. There’s nothing new in this “complexity” you’re talking about.

You must not have met Trahearne yet then.

It’s active, it’s got potential…but traits need to be overhauled, there needs to be more skill options, there needs to be more teamplay depth. Builds and specs need to matter more against the encounters. I really think adding the monk or ritualist back in with some more direct healing options (balanced and toned so that this isn’t the class’ only focus, or rather open up more reliable healing specs for Engineer, Ele, Necromancer) than the Guardian has would give this game the diversity of build purpose that it so desperately needs. They can make it so that it’s still unnecessary to NEED a monk or ritualiast to do content, but that it’s still an option.

kineticdamage.6279:

I could do it backwards :

If you could provide as many examples as I can provide proving you wrong – how there is a layer of complexity that goes beyond the “press 1-2-3-4-5” – sure.

The irony is that the reason why some people think this game is too simple is their own ignorance about how the game works. Requests to bring the game back to a more simplistic “tank/DPS/healer” show only how the more complex system of GW2, in which a character’s role cannot be so easily simplified to one word, is not being understood by some players.

lothefallen.7081:

Coming from 6 years of playing GW1 voraciously for thousands of hours, i dont need care-bear reward systems, reasons to get me back out into a shallow world. I want well designed encounters, a skill system that makes me think, a class system that actually sets up real roles and makes me rely on other players in an [MMO] ( this is an MMO, not a single-player game in case developers forgot), a trait / customization system that gives me a ridiculous amount of options and depth, not a pigeonholed experience that shows obvious lack of forethought.

I believe that you are stuck in the old MMO Mentality. The game don’t need specific roles. The game just needs to create group capability!

This game’s combat is the weakest link ive ever seen in an MMO.

Well i’m sorry to break up to you but the combat mechanics aren’t that bad. Any every other game, there are classes that can set auto-attack features and be afk while others can do the job. By this i mean if healer and tank are doing they job, DPS’ers can slack a lot. In this game, you can’t do that. Everyone is responsible for his own life, dps and survival. True that everyone should also be responsible for others as well, and this is the downside of this system ain’t it?

The combat is the biggest problem in this game and it bleeds over into everything social.

1- No reason to group outside of dungeons.
2- No set roles, encounters are faceroll and feel weird with trinity..half-removed.
3- Groups are just heaping on numbers, not strategic depth or engagement.
4- Content structure doesn’t encourage players playing together.
5- Skill system is shallow and restrictive.
6- Traits are busted, buggy, and ill-conceived.
7- Combat, encounters, grouping feels meaningless to the average newcomer, so less relationships, memories, etc. are formed than in traditional MMOs.
8-Many features (lack of LFG tool, Ascended gear), blunders (FoTM, Lost Shores), and miscalculations in reward systems (I killed 5 veteran Karka in a row and got not 1 single drop) serve only to alienate players.
The multiple guild feature destroys any social foundation the game may have.
9- The combat makes WvW an absolute zergfest.

Agree on: 1, 3, 4, 6(bugged), 7, 8
Disagree on:
2 – As i previously stated, Trinity is the old mentality MMO. If you can’t get out of that bubble you will always find there a problem.
5 – I don’t believe that the skill system is restrictive. I believe that skills are not balanced. Skills could be used for different things, but the way it feels now, players always use the same skills and that’s the problem!!!
9 – It’s not the combat that makes WvW a zergfest. The zerg fest would still exist if the trinity was present in this game. It’s the lack of anti-zerging mechanics that makes that. People tends to joins groups that increases their chances of survival. With the AoE limitation of 5 targets, they practically force players to join up!

So, what was the benefit of designing the game like this? More cash up front from a more broad playerbase than GW1, but a busted up game with players leaving in droves afterward?

A game can’t be designed for everyone’s expectations! This ain’t GW1… It only shares the name and the Lore. Nothing More!

What are you doing ArenaNet? Work on the *-** combat mechanics, character progression, skills, etc.

I Agree. The combo fields/finishers should have more depth. It was one of the things that made me looking forward to play the game. However they are so meaningless that feels wrong. Combo tactics is the way that the game should deal with the grouping problems. And they are practically nonexistent and their use is under-used!

Erasculio.2914

The irony is that the reason why some people think this game is too simple is their own ignorance about how the game works. Requests to bring the game back to a more simplistic “tank/DPS/healer”

1) You should not assume that “people who find it too simple just want the trinity back”.
I for one don’t want the trinity back. I just want the actual GW2 mechanics, but with 3x more choices and spell intrications. It’s not because the only other form of complexity you know is the Trinity that people asking for changes are automatically asking for that form. Please widen your view.

2) You should not assume that “people who find it too simple didn’t grasp all the subtelties yet”. Sorry, I was one of the guys copy pasting short tutorials about class cross combos at the start of each instance, only 1 week after release. One month after release, I had that whole Sunday where I didn’t die a single time in 4 hours straight in sPvP.
I’m not telling I’m an ace, but only to prove that some people asking for more complexity may really have “grasped all the subtelties”. I’m sorry if you feel offended by the fact that what you find super complex I find it easy to understand, but I won’t lie either. The game is as complex as a beat ’em all, that is all. (which is nice, but not enough for some players)

LHound.8964:

9 – It’s not the combat that makes WvW a zergfest. The zerg fest would still exist if the trinity was present in this game. It’s the lack of anti-zerging mechanics that makes that. People tends to joins groups that increases their chances of survival. With the AoE limitation of 5 targets, they practically force players to join up!

Do they?

Explain this to me, then:

kineticdamage.6279:

“people who find it too simple just want the trinity back”

Never said that. I have a hard time believing you have really understood the game if you didn’t understand even a simple post.

Erasculio.2914:

kineticdamage.6279:

“people who find it too simple just want the trinity back”

Never said that. I have a hard time believing you have really understood the game if you didn’t understand even a simple post.

Are you serious ? You just wrote it 10 minutes ago ….

Requests to bring the game back to a more simplistic “tank/DPS/healer”

… as a classification of these "people who want changes’.
Anyway forget it. You’re out for an argument fight. I’m not.

Erasculio.2914:

kineticdamage.6279:

I could do it backwards :

If you could provide as many examples as I can provide proving you wrong – how there is a layer of complexity that goes beyond the “press 1-2-3-4-5” – sure.

The irony is that the reason why some people think this game is too simple is their own ignorance about how the game works. Requests to bring the game back to a more simplistic “tank/DPS/healer” show only how the more complex system of GW2, in which a character’s role cannot be so easily simplified to one word, is not being understood by some players.

It could well be argued that it is precisely the simplicity of the ‘every man for himself’ aspect of combat, in the sense that everyone is responsible solely for themselves, that is causing people to crave more diversity.
Reliance upon others in group situations would appear to be the essence of a truly interactive multiplayer game. This is the aspect of the trinity that people are missing.
And the simplicity of skills and combat design is not an illusion. It takes a frighteningly short amount of time to learn the functions and detriments of boons and conditions, and it is more than a little dispiriting how little combo-fields will affect combat in terms of complexity and depth.
The dearth of skills available through weapon-tied mechanics only exacerbates the problem of repetitive, over-simplified combat, and the trait system goes nowhere near far enough to encourage distinction or specialisation in a character, directly leading to players finding it difficult to become immersed.
I think over-homogenisation is the keyword. The fear of being compared overly to the masses of ‘clone’ MMO’s, coupled with the desire to make the game as accessible as possible, has been their undoing.
It’s far from unfixable, and early days yet, but the manner, and rapidity, in which people will turn rabid defending certain advertised but not realised features of this game is a little worrisome.
Criticism is important to growth.

Erasculio.2914:

LHound.8964:

9 – It’s not the combat that makes WvW a zergfest. The zerg fest would still exist if the trinity was present in this game. It’s the lack of anti-zerging mechanics that makes that. People tends to joins groups that increases their chances of survival. With the AoE limitation of 5 targets, they practically force players to join up!

Do they?

Explain this to me, then:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-919RMwyfnk

And your point was… ?

So you were saying that the game has sufficient anti-zerg mechanics in a form that every group should have a couple of elementalists AOE spamming Meteor Shower to break the zerg, or that Zerging don’t increase the chance of survival?

LHound.8964:

And your point was… ?

That your claim about…

LHound.8964:

With the AoE limitation of 5 targets, they practically force players to join up!

…Is wrong. As has been proved, even a team using mostly AoE attacks doesn’t need to join a zerg in order to survive, even against a high number of oponents.

Erasculio.2914:

Are you a player good enough to solo AC on an elementalist?

Because a mmo is all about soloing stuff, is it … ?

You’re in denial. You might find it super fun to break the record on who can solo an instance, but I don’t. Some people are in dire need of more choices, even after having tried all the “subtelties”, that is all. Period. Basta. If you’re happy with it, stop denying how others can feel about it, and have fun with your solo records.

kineticdamage.6279:

Erasculio.2914:

Are you a player good enough to solo AC on an elementalist?

Because a mmo is all about soloing stuff, is it … ?

Nope. But a good MMO rewards skilled play more than anything else. The fact that GW2 has such a deep combat system that a skilled player can do more than 5 average players is proof of how complext the game is. Someone who claims that the game is too simple and to understands every nuance of the game, yet is not a skilled player, is just a lot of talk with no bark.

“Easy to understand, hard to master” – that was the intention. Someone who barely understands the game can think he’s a master, and then assume the game is simple, but that would only be a mistake.

Erasculio.2914:

Nope. But a good MMO rewards skilled play more than anything else. The fact that GW2 has such a deep combat system that a skilled player can do more than 5 average players is proof of how complext the game is. Someone who claims that the game is too simple and to understands every nuance of the game, yet is not a skilled player, is just a lot of talk with no bark.

So, you discovered that a skilled player can do more than a non-skilled player in a videogame, that’s right … ?

I could use your analogy for Super Mario Bros aswell.
Super Mario Bros is incredibly deep, is it ?

Erasculio.2914:

kineticdamage.6279:

… as a classification of these "people who want changes’.

Yeah… Definitely lack of understanding a simple post.

puffintoast.6501:

And the simplicity of skills and combat design is not an illusion. It takes a frighteningly short amount of time to learn the functions and detriments of boons and conditions, and it is more than a little dispiriting how little combo-fields will affect combat in terms of complexity and depth.

Really?

We have already had some people here complaining about how their team had a hard time fighting against Kholer in Ascalon Catacombs. There are still players who fail to complete the “destroy the burrows” event in path 1. Meanwhile…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llHO8EFnGlE

Here we have a single elementalist doing the entire path by himself.

The skill ceiling in GW2 is so high, due to how complex the game is, that a good player can do more than 5 average players together, while using the same skills. This is a sign of how good the combat system is – it rewards player skill more stats.

You claim to understand the game well… Are you such a good player to be able to do what the elementalist did in that video? Otheriwise… Guess you still have more to learn.

I would venture to say that a good percentage of people who play the game, given the right equipment setup, traits, and weapon selection, tailored to a suitable area to perform according to the preceding requirements, and having had the copious amount of practice this individual had at this run, could do the same, yes.
Or do you mean to imply that he/she went into this run on a whim to demonstrate their grasp of the ‘high skill ceiling’ totally unprepared, and could apply said to any area of the game in such a fashion?
There is quite a difference.

kineticdamage.6279:

So, you discovered that a skilled player can do more than a non-skilled player in a videogame, that’s right … ?

What, you want a complex game in which a bad player is as effective as a good player? Is that your definition of complexity?

puffintoast.6501:

I would venture to say that a good percentage of people who play the game, given the right equipment setup, traits, and weapon selection, tailored to a suitable area to perform according to the preceding requirements, and having had the copious amount of practice this individual had at this run, could do the same, yes.

In other words, someone who trains in order to build skill could become a skilled player and do something less skilled players couldn’t. Your point is?

Erasculio.2914:

…a good MMO rewards skilled play more than anything else…

Uh-oh.
And what was that reward, if I may ask?
Also, is there any chance we could see that same run done with all the different classes/traits/weapon sets, etc?
If the combat mechanics are so profoundly deep, then surely there is a way you could tailor any class to perform exactly the same, and what with your grasp of the ‘high skill ceiling’, I’m sure it would be a breeze.
When can we expect those videos?

One way ANet could add depth would be to make a number of boons stack in intensity. Rather than have say protection a duration only, they could make it reduce damage more with a higher stack. This then allow a dedicated support build to produce larger boon stacks compared to non-dedicated builds.

Erasculio.2914:

puffintoast.6501:

I would venture to say that a good percentage of people who play the game, given the right equipment setup, traits, and weapon selection, tailored to a suitable area to perform according to the preceding requirements, and having had the copious amount of practice this individual had at this run, could do the same, yes.

In other words, someone who trains in order to build skill could become a skilled player and do something less skilled players couldn’t. Your point is?

You stated that a ‘skilled’ player could provide the function of five lesser beings. And provided an example of such a talented player being fantastic at something that was clearly the result of tailoring a specific set of circumstances.
Surely building such ‘mad skillz’ required time and effort? What we mortals call “training”.
The video you provided does not indicate ‘depth’ at all, unfortunately.
A deep game is precisely that – constantly unfolding layers of complexity, even if these layers were masked in simplicity.
You can feel fantastic about yourself playing it if you want.
There’s an awful lot of players out there with entirely valid opinions to the contrary of yours that would beg to differ, but there you go, I s’pose.
Many a mickle makes a muckle.

Erasculio.2914:

LHound.8964:

And your point was… ?

That your claim about…

LHound.8964:

With the AoE limitation of 5 targets, they practically force players to join up!

…Is wrong. As has been proved, even a team using mostly AoE attacks doesn’t need to join a zerg in order to survive, even against a high number of oponents.

Proven? What has been proven? That a player survival don’t increase while in the middle of a zerg? It’s clear that with the current system limited to 5 target AoE, a player in a cluster of players is more likely to survive than wandering alone with the same class. Just logics…

GW2 combat lacks depth. That doesn’t mean people cannot be skilled at it. It’s things like HAM, States(TCOS), Skilldeck(TCOS), Combos that actually create a new powerful effect, a wide range of stats, abilities that can be completely altered to do something different, and a whole lot more that add depth.

ArenaNet really needs to add more stats, balance the stats they have, add more abilities, add traits that drastically alter abilities/playstyle, combos that actually produce a more powerful effect, differentiate the classes a lot more, and add new layers to combat like balance.

The biggest thing IMO that kills combat depth in this game is the fact that everything is overly offensive. 90% of the skills are attacks/conditions and very few defensive abilities. Look at the shield? Underused and could have been so much more. Put block on a 1s cooldown and allow players to constantly block attacks but at the cost of a damage reduction, I’d take it. Same could go for parry or riposte. Dodge is nice an all but it really breaks up the flow of combat and with it’s limits(for most classes) it’s role in adding depth falls short.

Yea the interrupts would be more interesting to play around with if failing to time one properly didn’t lead to it being on recharge for 40 seconds or more. That kind of cooldown should only really happen if they actually interrupt something.

Giving boon stacks to protection, regeneration…all workable ideas, but i don’t think they are the solution. That would just cause more zerging and more mush. We need direct support, healing…we need the combat to be deepened rather than just a bigger cluster****.

While I’m all for deepening the combat, I’m really not for falling into the trap of bringing the Trinity again :/

I really feel that there is a limited amount of depth you could bring to this system given how classes aren’t interdependent, trait specs, and builds don’t really matter in PvE at all, grouping outside of dungeons is redundant because encounters are faceroll and designed to be solo’d. Without the depth a healer class adds to the paradigm, the balance in this game will always feel off, it will always feel a bit more like a single-player action console game than a true MMO. Healing in this game is ineffective. There’s no reason to spec into full healing, it actually gimps you. The skill system is restrictive, etc…if they can find away to make roles more distinct and address all these problems of depth without adding a healer, that’s fine too. I just don’t see how the combat in this game is ever going to be as inherently rewarding and deep as its’ predecessor.

I don’t think Anet is finished improving certain things on GW2. As a matter of fact, the suggestion forums is only a click away.

Sadly some people cannot understand GW2 combat and will try to “zerg” things to death and cannot see beyond “role-based combat”; I believe this is due to the general easiness of the endgame that doesn’t force players to set up a proper combat team or to learn combat itself – maybe this is in order to allow casuals to access that content.

GW2 is teaching people to actually “play the battlefield” freely instead pidgeon-holing a player into a specific, focused, easily manageable task.
To make a metaphor, if a MMO was a restaurant, the traditional MMO would be the one telling you “decide: be the waiter, barman or chef”, while GW2 would be telling you “manage the whole restaurant freely”.
Combat not only involves playing a part but all parts of it.

As a Thief I can take care of people’s aggro and life through stealths, managing enemy damage through blinds, debuffs and fields, tanking through dodging and evading manually, controlling enemies through various forms of stuns, interrupting, impairing movement and effectiveness of enemies, etc.
In another MMO my role would be just “deal damage”.

If combat was the weakest part of GW2, then I wonder what the combat of other MMOs should be called considering they only allow a minor part of what GW2 allows to be managed at one time.

I blame this partly on MMOs using people to believe that trinity easymode gimmick is depth, and partly on Anet making the game really too easy which doesn’t take advantage of the new combat system.

Erasculio.2914:

To give one more example: In other topic, I saw someone using the Graveling Scavangers to demonstrated how “broken” the combat system is. The Scavangers have a charged attack in which, if they hit, they knock a character down and basically kill it while it’s on the ground. The poster was using them as a way to illustrate how combat is either DPS – and you kill them before they use this attack – or dodge – the only way to avoid this attack – or you die, no other option available.

That comment showed a profound lack of knowledge about the game.

Against the Graveling Scavangers, a character can:

• Interrupt the charging animation. Any kind of crowd control works for this.

• If the character cannot interrupt the attack, use some kind of defensive skill to prevent the attack from hitting. Aegis for Guardians, Mist Form for Elementalists, and so on.

• If the attack cannot be defended against, use some source of Stability to prevent the knock down and thus avoid the killing attacks.

• If the character cannot prevent the knock down and is actually thrown on the ground, use any kind of stun breaker to leave the knocked down state and just walk away from the killing attacks.

• If a character cannot do any of that… Just ask for help. Party members can do all of the above, plus interrupt the killing attacks themselves.

Dodge is not the only, nor the best, way to avoid taking damage. It’s likely the simplest, which has led some players to assume it’s the only one.

Your example above also shows why some consider GW2 shallow and some focus on the dodge mechanic.

Other games have interrupts, equivalents of stability, stun breakers, etc, GW2 adds no new depth there, all it adds are dodges, combo fields, that your skill will go on cooldown if you fire it out of range and not a lot else.

On the other hand it lacks variety in that all classes are pretty much DPS + CC/utlity/heal tacked on, that can then be flavoured to varying extents through gear/traits/skills, but the variation is limited in comparison to most MMOs, there is no total change of playstyle such as you get from playing a healer.

The classes are also for the most part rather simple (but then they are DPS, so they would be), they play more like a glorified ARPG, that place less demands on you than the more complex classes in other MMOs, nothing in this game requires the level of thought, awareness or multitasking that I had to do on my loremaster in LOTRO when I raided, the same goes for PvP, it took far more to play my chlorodom in Rift than the arcadey classes in GW2.

Then you have that the classes are designed to be self sufficient and a system designed so any compoistion of classes can complete teh content, so you basically have a design which is anti-teamwork and feels “zergy” for many people, at the same time this design means the content has to have more forgiving tolerances than in a traditional MMO.

The good thing about GW2 combat is it is nice and fluid, but complex or having lots of depth, no, and some classes/builds such as thief p/d give a new meaning to simplistic and shallow.

Distaste.4801:

The biggest thing IMO that kills combat depth in this game is the fact that everything is overly offensive. 90% of the skills are attacks/conditions and very few defensive abilities.

Sorry but I have more defensive than offensive skills as a mesmer.

Several teleport.
Distortion
Daze
Confusion
Stealth
Condition removers
CCs
Reflect
Interruption
Block

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

I don’t think the combat is the games weakest point, but I honestly thought Anet was joking when they said they were planning to make Gw2 a E-Sport :/
Honestly can’t see it happening with how the classes are right now.

I don’t see it will happen either but its not just the classes its everything combined i don’t know a single person that would want to watch someone play a game where they just spam 5 skills on cool down and running mindless from capture point A-B.

Ouroboros.5076:

Such a blatant lack of understanding of this game’s mechanics does not give much credibility to this thread.

It’s even more sad coming from a GW1 player where each class used to use maximum 20 skills in Vanilla, where attributes had no influence at all on the gameplay, and where you could not swap skills on the fly. On a single Fractal run I may use up to 30 different skills with my Mesmer, depending on the ennemies, my group needs, and the situation.

This game’s mechanics are much, much deeper than GW1, so complex in fact that it’s hard to really understand them all.

^ A breath of fresh air among many spewings of hot air.

I see the issue in the way a party forms, rather than the individual classes. I’m sure that if you try, you can make a cool team that utilizes each other’s strength’s fields and stuff like that. The problem is…why do that? Unless it’s PvP, why even bother? Nothing is hard enough so that it requires the team builds to work together well. All you need are skilled players and decent individual builds, not a coherent team.

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+ Champion health

Nausicca.6038:

Distaste.4801:

The biggest thing IMO that kills combat depth in this game is the fact that everything is overly offensive. 90% of the skills are attacks/conditions and very few defensive abilities.

Sorry but I have more defensive than offensive skills as a mesmer.

Several teleport.
Distortion
Daze
Confusion
Stealth
Condition removers
CCs
Reflect
Interruption
Block

I will give you that the mesmer and possibly guardian are the only classes I’ve seen that have a lot of defensive capability. However, a lot of those can be offensive and defensive. A teleport away from a foe is defensive but at the same time teleporting to an enemy is offensive. Correct me if I’m wrong but one of your teleports is to a melee illusion, obviously offensive.

Just to go through your skills:
(O= offensive D=Defensive B=both)

Greatsword- O- 4 D- 1
Staff- O-1 D-1 B-3
Scepter- O-2 D-1
Sword- O-1 D-0 B-2
Sword(OH)- O-1 D-1
Focus- B- 2
Pistol- O-2
Torch- B-2

Now I’m sure you’ll complain that a lot of the “boths” I listed are defensive but they can certainly be used offensively. Take “the prestige” Disapearing is certainly defensive and can be used to run away. It can also be used to attack your opponent, thus the burning on reappearing.

Whats the problem with skills that are both offensive and defensive? You use them. That might sound odd but hear me out. If a skill is offensive and defensive it is far more likely that you will use it offensively before defensively since at the start of the fight you obviously aren’t in need of a ton of defense. Only when you’re in trouble are you looking for your defensive skills and if they were used offensively and on cooldown you’re screwed. If we had more skill slots those skills could just be broken up and used together like combos or seperately, thus adding to the depth of combat.

TLDR: ArenaNet in simplifying the game design combined a lot of offensive and defensive skills into a single skill. This makes combat shallower.