Guild Wars 2

It’s a well known fact that GW2’s PVE is horrible. Trash mobs have ridiculous health pools, boss strategies consist of nothing more than “kite and dodge” with singular gimmicks if you’re lucky. Event bosses, meant to replace raiding, are mindless zergfests with no strategy involved (Risen High Priests) or giant monsters that sit in one place and roar at you helplessly while you kill them with zero resistance or challenge (the dragon encounters, also Zhaitan). It doesn’t help that the loot from all of this is either non existent or just plain sucks.

There’s a simple reason why this is true and will remain an unbreakable constant for GW2’s lifespan as a game. It’s the much touted “no holy trinity” gameplay. Now I know how the responses to this will go:

But Vasham, the trinity just put all the responsibility on the healer and no one else! DPS could sleepwalk through encounters and tanks just had to not die!

False. To say the trinity was that simplistic shows one’s ignorance of PVE mechanics and overall lack of experience in true endgame content. Tanks, DPS, and Healers all had specific sub-duties in encounters, mechanics to watch for, and skills to master beyond their base role in the raid. I would dare say the trinity required a higher skill ceiling than any role a class can play in GW2.

But the trinity forces people into playstyles they don’t like and extends the time it takes to form a group!

False. While a time existed in previous MMOs where to play a certain class meant you played a certain role in the trinity that time has long passed. MMOs with good class balance (read: anything not by Arenanet) have either been released or changed their classes so the one you play isn’t pigeonholed into a specific role. I never met a tank or healer in WoW, Rift, or other games that played those roles exclusively yet didn’t enjoy it. The lack of those roles have turned many players away from GW2, and I can’t blame them.

But the trinity is an old and tired system! This game’s system is new!

New doesn’t mean good, if anything it’s proven the opposite. The lack of the trinity as a solid foundation for encounter design is why GW2 has had such trouble with it’s PVE content. Arenanet made the mistake of viewing the trinity in such shallow terms during development that they forgot why it’s stood the test of time. Without the trinity to provide that basic framework encounters boil down to a murky cloud of damage dealing and kiting. There’s nothing to support more advanced mechanics than the most basic of gimmicks as GW2’s dungeons and events have proved, and the new Fractals dungeon has reinforced that proof.

Deny it all you want, but PVE players are the backbone of a healthy MMO. With GW2’s sPVP in a rapid decline and the pipe dream of esports becoming more unreachable every day Arenanet will need to appease the PVE playerbase to stay afloat. With such poor encounter design limited by a wide eyed dream of a world with no trinity it’s an avenue they are not prepared to deliver on unless drastic change is made to class balance and the trinity is reinstated.

That, or we can look forward to spamming 2 again to kill the next Elder Dragon.

What do you mean ‘needs to come back’?

Its not like you bought it knowing it has a trinity system, and then they changed it. This game never had a trinity system as far as I know.

Do you know what is the cost of redesigning the classes to become a trinity system (assuming you are right that trinity is better)? Might as well make a new game.

That being said, I still don’t understand why would you force yourself on GW2 if you liked the trinity system and you know that this game doesn’t have it.

I personally don’t support this… at all. I’d like this game to remain different from all other MMOs because.. if I wanted to play style of game I’d play another game.

projectcedric.6951:

What do you mean ‘needs to come back’?

Its not like you bought it knowing it has a trinity system, and then they changed it. This game never had a trinity system as far as I know.

Do you know what is the cost of redesigning the classes to become a trinity system (assuming you are right that trinity is better)? Might as well make a new game.

That being said, I still don’t understand why would you force yourself on GW2 if you liked the trinity system and you know that this game doesn’t have it.

I didn’t force myself onto anything. I knew this game wouldn’t have the trinity and I was naive enough to think Arenanet would be capable of making it work. Clearly my hope was misplaced.

As for the cost of redesign? That’s not my problem. Arenanet is the one that needs to add some structure to their PVE or face the consequences of a declining playerbase.

OP, you want GW2 to not be GW2 at all. I do not support this.

In WoW, you can enjoy quite the waiting time to enter dungeons if you’re DPS. With tanks having the easiest time (as they require significantly more efford to play) and healers close behind.

In GW2, everyone needs to pull his own weight and I’m all in favor of that. I agree that the dungeons at present need some work (bigger health pools don’t mean a harder challenge), but this is a solid combat model that I personally thoroughly enjoy.

and really in the trinity style gameplay, you could fall asleep after compleating one encounter many times, you know what u had to do and you could close your eyes and press buttons and still win. if this fails close your eyes and press buttons based on the shouting of whomever is yelling on any voice chat program…..i have actually done this in a few raids in Rift and WoW….and I did do this in every raid in SW:tor

projectcedric.6951:

Vasham.2408:

projectcedric.6951:

What do you mean ‘needs to come back’?

Its not like you bought it knowing it has a trinity system, and then they changed it. This game never had a trinity system as far as I know.

Do you know what is the cost of redesigning the classes to become a trinity system (assuming you are right that trinity is better)? Might as well make a new game.

That being said, I still don’t understand why would you force yourself on GW2 if you liked the trinity system and you know that this game doesn’t have it.

I didn’t force myself onto anything. I knew this game wouldn’t have the trinity and I was naive enough to think Arenanet would be capable of making it work. Clearly my hope was misplaced.

Clearly it was.

So what are you still doing here?

As a dissatisfied customer it is my right to voice my dissatisfaction and advise the creator of said sub-par product how to improve and maybe win back my support.

Vasham.2408:

New doesn’t mean good, if anything it’s proven the opposite…

It’s better than WoW

sorry new here is better than the same old same old

-healing is unrealistic and just a gimmic in WoW and other MMORPG’s
-tanking is beyond unrealistic and just a gimmic in WoW and other MMORPG’s

Everquest introduced this trinity nonsense and WoW did nothing new but just perpetuated this nonsense.

I agree that we haven’t seen the best but please don’t ask to regress… let this game do something to move forward… Areanet either willingly or was forced to go back on their own manifesto with the gear grind already >_< they don’t have to totally abuse their manifesto any more with the trinity nonsense other games have.

I played a healer and tank, It was always just a game gimmick- fun for that game but not necessary and not the best option for ANY game.

Vasham.2408:

It’s a well known fact that GW2’s PVE is horrible.

sir, with all due respect, it is not a fact. it is your opinion.

and from my point of view – it’s great! especially the dungeons.

The trinity in other mmos takes absolutely zero skill. So long as you know what you have to do and when and your gear is up to par, you cannot fail. You may as well play DDR on your keyboard.

Coldtart.4785:

The trinity in other mmos takes absolutely zero skill. So long as you know what you have to do and when and your gear is up to par, you cannot fail. You may as well play DDR on your keyboard.

I find this statement funny. Anyone who makes this remark clearly has zero experience in true endgame content in other MMOs. Have you ever killed Algalon the Observer? Maybe Akylios? How about any boss from Final Fantasy 11? I would wager any player who says the trinity takes zero skill probably played WoW to level thirty and quit.

The most basic of endgame encounters in any other MMO you can mention put GW2 to shame in terms of challenge and skill requirement. This isn’t an opinion, it’s a fact.

Here’s a challenge for you OP, name one game with the holy trinity that a) Wished it were WoW by virtue of it’s mechanics and play style and b) Didn’t rely on a gear based revolving door to force people use the trinity.
Bonus question: If you could beat a dungeon or raid in wow with 5/10/25 dps, how many people would STILL play as a dedicated tank or healer?

The holy trinity is a tired old mechanic that doesn’t feel fluid in its execution, it creates an imbalance in player population that gives all the “power” to a tank or healer and nothing to anyone else, it’s also a breeding ground for “must have X or you can’t come” mentality that people have in games like WoW. From what you are saying OP you want GW2 to have the trinity because you think the boss mechanics in WoW are more interesting, but it seems like you failed to ask yourself the question: What would WoW have mechanic wise if it wasn’t constrained by the trinity? Hell, if you want a game with the trinity so badly then go play a game with the trinity… and be bored in a couple of months… it’s not like GW2 is making you pay a subscription fee to sit in a queue for 20 minutes as a DPS.

As a defense-oriented player I enjoy being a tank in other MMOs and missing that I’ll pick healing and support over damage dealing any time of the day, so I would also prefer the trinity to whatever we have now.

However, for all its advantages, people need to acknowledge that the trinity is also a very flawed system: one of the biggest issues is that hybrids must be jacks-of-all-trades but also masters-of-all otherwise they’re not going to be used in high-end PvE.

Also, Guild Wars 2 was advertised as a game that shatters the trinity.

So with all things considered, I think Arenanet would be better to try to push a new solutions instead of copy-pasting the trinity. As long as it has a place for people like me who prefer defense to damage dealing I’ll take it whether it’s the trinity or not.

Turkey needs to come back!!!

Waiter: Sir, this is a japanese restaurant, our Christmas special is sushi, we don’t have turkey.

Customer: No, you claim this is a Christmas special so it has to be turkey!

Waiter: Didn’t you read our manual before coming in for dinner?

Customer: Yes, but i think without turkey you would be capable of making it work. Clearly my hope was misplaced. So I need turkey now.

Please i like the way it is, don’t bring trinity into GW, thank you!

Coffeebot.3921:

Here’s a challenge for you OP, name one game with the holy trinity that a) Wished it were WoW by virtue of it’s mechanics and play style and b) Didn’t rely on a gear based revolving door to force people use the trinity.

Guild Wars 1

I wouldn’t call simply dropping everything that they’ve already built in favor of a hard trinity an improvement.

The core mechanics they have in place right now are solid. It needs refinement and expansion, along with content that actually takes advantage of said mechanics, much like what the trinity has already gone through for many, many years already.

Hobocop.1508:

I wouldn’t call simply dropping everything that they’ve already built in favor of a hard trinity an improvement.

The core mechanics they have in place right now are solid. It needs refinement and expansion, along with content that actually takes advantage of said mechanics, much like what the trinity has already gone through for many, many years already.

You can’t build a skyscraper on mud and expect it to remain standing. That is the issue here. Innovation for innovation’s sake won’t fix anything, just cause more problems as we’ve seen the past few months.

projectcedric.6951:

What exactly do you intend to gain by persistently disseminating your negativity and disgruntlement around here?

That they would refund your 60 dollars?

That they would change the game according to what YOU thing is right?

That the game would belly-up as soon as you seem to be hoping it would to prove your point of how much a failure it is?

I mean, I don’t wanna poke my nose in people’s businesses, but most people come to the forums to discuss things, find some info, ask around, maybe rage a little after a bad game day.. and everybody gets something for their time.

But you come here almost everyday just to trash the game. And as far as I know, nothing has been changed much according to what you and people who voice the same as you do say. How long as it been, man? I mean, again, maybe its none of my business- but don’t you have better things to do with your time?

And please. Win back YOUR support? WTS man, who the F do you think you are?

I am discussing something. You appear to dislike me discussing it.

That’s your perception of the game’s mechanics, which I disagree strongly with. I see a very sturdy foundation with a lack of content to really take advantage of what it offers. Fractals are a start, and we’ll see what the dungeon revamp brings in a few months.

Honestly, it is still in the game. I can specc my Mesmer to facetank most mobs. The trinity is gone in terms of class roles. It is not gone in terms of gameplay.
I can specc my Mesmer to be a healer. Or a tank. Or a supporter. Or a damage dealer.
If you want to play as a trinity, get some players, coordinate setups and builds and you will be fine.

Vasham.2408:

As for the cost of redesign? That’s not my problem. Arenanet is the one that needs to add some structure to their PVE or face the consequences of a declining playerbase.

Give me a break, dude.

You think they gonna do it? They’re not gonna do it. Even if you were right, who’s crazy enough to go change all the skills, class balances and battle system at this point – especially when it basically means redesigning the WHOLE kitten game.

Now two things may happen. It may go like you say, and game closes within a couple of months. OR. People like it and they still be playing.

Either way, you can’t control it, man. What the hell is the point of all of this?

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Honestly, it is still in the game. I can specc my Mesmer to facetank most mobs. The trinity is gone in terms of class roles. It is not gone in terms of gameplay.
I can specc my Mesmer to be a healer. Or a tank. Or a supporter. Or a damage dealer.
If you want to play as a trinity, get some players, coordinate setups and builds and you will be fine.

I’ve noticed this too. Guardians and Warriors seem to attract a lot of aggro, at least when I run Explorables and Fractals. It’s egregious enough that one starts to think why they bothered to remove only a third of the trinity (healing) and taunt skills. It was probably a last minute design choice, but such things seem to be the defacto approach to development at Arenanet.

projectcedric.6951:

Give me a break, dude.

You think they gonna do it? They’re not gonna do it. Even if you were right, who’s crazy enough to go change all the skills, class balances and battle system at this point – especially when it basically means redesigning the WHOLE kitten game.

Now two things may happen. It may go like you say, and game closes within a couple of months. OR. People like it and they still be playing.

Either way, you can’t control it, man. What the hell is the point of all of this?

I know they won’t do it. Arenanet has proven they’re not good at admitting mistakes. Loot DR, Trahearne, Zhaitan being a “spam 2 to win” fight, Ree’s horrible writing, poor rewards from meta events. All things they did wrong but would never admit to, let alone correct.

Still, I won’t be the one out of a job over it.

I’m getting really tired of these posts.

First off, there’s nothing to ‘go back to’ – the game was fundamentally built upon the game mechanic that’s there. You realize there’s absolutely no chance that Anet would totally gut the game and put in rigid class roles, right? It’s just not going to happen – ever.

As for your statement that everyone knows the PvE in this game is horrible is so horribly wrong that I’m not sure where to start. I, and many others, love the core game mechanics of this game and very much enjoy them. Of course there are things that probably need to be tweaked, fixed or maybe even overhauled to some extend but I have nothing but praise for the way the game plays.

Honestly, if you’re THAT unhappy with the way the core gameplay works then just don’t play. If you desperately want the trinity system then there’s a plethera of games out there that can satisfy you.

I for one, applaud Anet for designing something very different and being successful with it.

So, can we stop with these posts now? Plz?

Vasham.2408:

projectcedric.6951:

Vasham.2408:

projectcedric.6951:

What do you mean ‘needs to come back’?

Its not like you bought it knowing it has a trinity system, and then they changed it. This game never had a trinity system as far as I know.

Do you know what is the cost of redesigning the classes to become a trinity system (assuming you are right that trinity is better)? Might as well make a new game.

That being said, I still don’t understand why would you force yourself on GW2 if you liked the trinity system and you know that this game doesn’t have it.

I didn’t force myself onto anything. I knew this game wouldn’t have the trinity and I was naive enough to think Arenanet would be capable of making it work. Clearly my hope was misplaced.

Clearly it was.

So what are you still doing here?

As a dissatisfied customer it is my right to voice my dissatisfaction and advise the creator of said sub-par product how to improve and maybe win back my support.

Sure it is. But to think for a second that Anet is going to totally revamp the fundamental game mechanics that the game is built upon is just totally naive. If you truly believe the game is broken because of the lack of a trinity then don’t play. <shrug>

Jandus.2834:

Vasham.2408:

projectcedric.6951:

Vasham.2408:

projectcedric.6951:

What do you mean ‘needs to come back’?

Its not like you bought it knowing it has a trinity system, and then they changed it. This game never had a trinity system as far as I know.

Do you know what is the cost of redesigning the classes to become a trinity system (assuming you are right that trinity is better)? Might as well make a new game.

That being said, I still don’t understand why would you force yourself on GW2 if you liked the trinity system and you know that this game doesn’t have it.

I didn’t force myself onto anything. I knew this game wouldn’t have the trinity and I was naive enough to think Arenanet would be capable of making it work. Clearly my hope was misplaced.

Clearly it was.

So what are you still doing here?

As a dissatisfied customer it is my right to voice my dissatisfaction and advise the creator of said sub-par product how to improve and maybe win back my support.

Sure it is. But to think for a second that Anet is going to totally revamp the fundamental game mechanics that the game is built upon is just totally naive. If you truly believe the game is broken because of the lack of a trinity then don’t play. <shrug>

“No criticism. No questioning glorious leader Arenanet. Find the game perfect or leave.”

Sounds like the SWTOR forums. We all saw how well that game did with fanboys touting this kind of attitude.

Another post by Vasham.

It’s always the same names repeating things like “GW2 pve is bad” – it’s not.

It’s actually great fun and demands more from each member of the group than terribad tank and spank trinity fights.

It’s actually better than raiding heroic DS because it’s more fun than raiding heroic DS. And funnily enough, anyone who farmed heroic DS knows what I mean.

Trinity gameplay on a heroic raiding level forces Simon Says mechanics which get incredibly boring and inflexible over time.

I do think some things can be improved on. Some fights have great mechanics, others lack proper mechanics altogether, and some are zerg fights which are confusing and inelegant. I agree with that.

But GW2 PVE does not need the old, tired and boring trinity system.

That’s like saying we should all go back to the Ultima Online gameplay of 1 attack ability with mouse left click. It’s in the past with boring old mechanics of other types, let it go.

@Op

Imo you’re confusing a couple of things.

Mainly healers and tanks in previous raid centric mmo’s (like Wow and Rift) could play other roles yes. That said they would never almost do it since they were required to fulfill that particular role as dps is easier to find than tanks and healers (at least good ones).

Second, with the way GW2 pve is designed having a trinity wouldn’t make sense. Mainly because deaths are just a small harassment and furthermore it would turn glass cannons into an even more careless attitude.

3rd, I admit I’m missing a bit the REAL trinity but then again when you present some arguments such as we are the backbone of the game, it’s kinda hard being sympathetic towards you.

To finalize, I don’t think GW2 aim was to be a raid centric game nor do I see any means of it becoming one without heavily tampering with the engine. You ask for a trinity , but for a trinity to exist you must have mechanics to match it. Just to give you an example. Think of what Wow would be with a dodge and you will understand what I mean.

Vasham.2408:

Coffeebot.3921:

Here’s a challenge for you OP, name one game with the holy trinity that a) Wished it were WoW by virtue of it’s mechanics and play style and b) Didn’t rely on a gear based revolving door to force people use the trinity.

Guild Wars 1

0 points.
GW1 doesn’t wish it were WoW as it’s mechanically dissimilar and it doesn’t have the holy trinity, there was a class capable of dedicated healing, but there wasn’t a class that was dedicated to keeping aggro off of everyone else.

Vasham.2408:

Jandus.2834:

Vasham.2408:

projectcedric.6951:

Vasham.2408:

projectcedric.6951:

What do you mean ‘needs to come back’?

Its not like you bought it knowing it has a trinity system, and then they changed it. This game never had a trinity system as far as I know.

Do you know what is the cost of redesigning the classes to become a trinity system (assuming you are right that trinity is better)? Might as well make a new game.

That being said, I still don’t understand why would you force yourself on GW2 if you liked the trinity system and you know that this game doesn’t have it.

I didn’t force myself onto anything. I knew this game wouldn’t have the trinity and I was naive enough to think Arenanet would be capable of making it work. Clearly my hope was misplaced.

Clearly it was.

So what are you still doing here?

As a dissatisfied customer it is my right to voice my dissatisfaction and advise the creator of said sub-par product how to improve and maybe win back my support.

Sure it is. But to think for a second that Anet is going to totally revamp the fundamental game mechanics that the game is built upon is just totally naive. If you truly believe the game is broken because of the lack of a trinity then don’t play. <shrug>

“No criticism. No questioning glorious leader Arenanet. Find the game perfect or leave.”

Sounds like the SWTOR forums. We all saw how well that game did with fanboys touting this kind of attitude.

No, that’s not my position at all. You’re describing a fundamental gameplay mechanic that underlies the entire underpinnings of the game that you’re dissatisfied with. If you’re that dissatisfied with it then what are your choices? Hope that they scrap the entire game and start from scratch with a trinity system? I mean, let’s be real here.

I’m going to pick on WoW some more here (bias ftw). In any encounter in pve there is always a specific method to win. That method is usually only able to be discovered by trial and error, because in a purely statistics based system there is no way to create true difficulty. Futhermore, when you know the method, the game is almost literally telling you what button to press next to win. In other words, the game wants you to beat it, if you do what it’s telling you, you will beat it.

Also, one of my WoW playing friends bots herioc raids as a healer and tops heals with a lower ilvl than the other healers. If a bot can do it you cannot tell me that it takes skill.

Vasham.2408:

Sounds like the SWTOR forums. We all saw how well that game did with fanboys touting this kind of attitude.

Sure. Game is going down. You seem to be much smarter than us “fanboys” and can predict it happening. So what are you waiting for, man? Jump off the boat.

Why are you still here with us while we play a game that is apparently destined to fail?

Thought you were genius,

I think, it have nothing to do with holy trinity. The flaws OP mentioned are examples of bad game design, GW2 have plenty of them. GW2 also have lots of examples of good game design, but apparently OP didn’t think they’re worth mentioning, because “it’s a well known fact blah blah blah”, because his biased pov looks more substantiated without them, in other words.

To employ the holy trinity concept to fix such flaws, or avoid them, would be to choose a lazy/dumb way and it’s not necessary will work (look at WoW and LFR, and Heroics there) . The right way would be to learn from your mistakes and make good game design. And i think that encounters in FotM (not all of course) show that AN is on the right track, more or less.

Coldtart.4785:

I’m going to pick on WoW some more here (bias ftw). In any encounter in pve there is always a specific method to win. That method is usually only able to be discovered by trial and error, because in a purely statistics based system there is no way to create true difficulty. Futhermore, when you know the method, the game is almost literally telling you what button to press next to win. In other words, the game wants you to beat it, if you do what it’s telling you, you will beat it.

Also, one of my WoW playing friends bots herioc raids as a healer and tops heals with a lower ilvl than the other healers. If a bot can do it you cannot tell me that it takes skill.

This is correct.

It’s what I meant by “Simon Says” mechanics.

There is really no skill difference between a top 20 world raider and a top 500. The main difference is time spent learning the dance by trial and error, and the theorycrafting of the raid tactics officers during world first races.

The whole notion of trinity system implies 3 things:

- aggro is managed on a predictable basis
- healing throughput matches the requirements of the fight
- damage is high enough to beat soft/hard enrage mechanics

That is it. That’s all the trinity is.

These things were required in the past but those mechanics are old and we’re moving past that. The same way we moved from Ultima combat to EQ combat.

So here we go. Yet another one of these threads.

Let’s get something clear here: people like the OP are bad for the genre.

Specifically, they are part of that group of people who look at something that is new or different and say “no thanks, give me back the old stuff.” Not only are they unwilling to change themselves, they are unwilling to have patience with a company that is trying something new or different.

Which is why we have a million Everquest/WoW clones on the market.

So no, we don’t need the “trinity” system back. We don’t need classes that are designed to be nothing but meatshields. We don’t need classes that spend more time staring at green bars instead of the fight. We don’t need a stereotypical aggro system. We don’t need people standing around looking for a specific class for their group.

What we do need is to be willing to change ourselves and to be patient with the developers as they work out a different system. The upside to all this is that with no subscription fee you can take a break for a while and come back later on if you are annoyed by the growing pains that come with being an early adopter of a new MMO.

I find this all too familiar. When WoW first released, there were a few nay-sayers going around whining on how unpolished it is (earlier versions, as compared to EQ & Ultima Online), criticism on dev, yada yada. It took WoW around a year or more to bear resemblance to its current playability.

So here we are, who witness what arguably the next important step in evolution for MMO, endorsed by the significant ‘few’ : “https://www.guildwars2.com/en/media/awards/” (even Time magazine join in the party wagon), achieved within mere months after release while still in process of refinement. Can’t wait to see how GW2 when it is in more polished form in a few months time.

Yea, everyone is entitled to own opinion, but I’m convinced by my 4 friends who move from WoW to GW2. Action of 4 speaks louder than word of mere 1.

Another one of these threads… it’s like people come in knowing what they were getting but then bought it and demand a change. Plenty of options with trinity system, just not this one.

My 5 cents, the mechanics in this game are working fine, no more easy jobs because everyone has to do their job to survive.

Despite the fact that I love tanking… and healing… and dpsing… One of the reasons I started playing gw2 was the lack of the trinity. That and no raids and a more open non-quest-bound world. Changing the mechanics in such a way that tanks and healers would be needed, well.. that would be goodbye for me and I dare say I would not be the only one.

Losing the trinity it’s the single greatest achievement of this game.

Go back to WoW or some WoW clone.
I’m serious, this is not the game you’re looking for.

Vasham.2408:

I know they won’t do it. Arenanet has proven they’re not good at admitting mistakes. Loot DR, Trahearne, Zhaitan being a “spam 2 to win” fight, Ree’s horrible writing, poor rewards from meta events. All things they did wrong but would never admit to, let alone correct.

Still, I won’t be the one out of a job over it.

And…again….SO??

You admit you’re not affected in any way. And as far as anybody can tell they didn’t technically cheat you because they never said they would admit their mistakes or change things if people say the game was bad.

Why are you so sour-grape over this? It’s like you’re bitter about a bad breakup that you can’t let go of for months on end, or something.

Just move on, dude.

Did anyone else forsee the white knight brigade on this thread?

Anyway, OP, the game not having tanks, healers, dps is a big factor in why it’s only sold 2m copies. (probably more than half of those quit)

So if they want to see their game fail, let them. Why let it bother you?

i bought it because it had no trinity.

Vasham.2408:

Coldtart.4785:

The trinity in other mmos takes absolutely zero skill. So long as you know what you have to do and when and your gear is up to par, you cannot fail. You may as well play DDR on your keyboard.

I find this statement funny. Anyone who makes this remark clearly has zero experience in true endgame content in other MMOs. Have you ever killed Algalon the Observer? Maybe Akylios? How about any boss from Final Fantasy 11? I would wager any player who says the trinity takes zero skill probably played WoW to level thirty and quit.

The most basic of endgame encounters in any other MMO you can mention put GW2 to shame in terms of challenge and skill requirement. This isn’t an opinion, it’s a fact.

I killed every boss in Hammerknell except Akylios (I quit a week after we started him because I wanted to play SWTOR), there were indeed a lot of fun mechanics with those bosses but NONE of them had anything to do with the trinity. You don’t need the trinity to make sure the king and prince are on equal HP%, you don’t need the trinity to deal with Zilas’ adds and you don’t need the trinity to properly place Sicaron’s coffin thingies. The only thing the trinity did was force me into a boring 3 button DPS rotation that made me feel like all the interesting mechanics had nothing to do with my actual abilites or powers (except the occasional interrupt).

I agree that GW2 may need better boss mechanics but at least here the abilities you use on the bosses are actually more than just HP reduction. Things like snares and reflect projectiles actually work on the bosses.

Also, I know people like to resort to strawman but you didn’t have to make it so obvious as to actually make up your own counter arguments and replying to them in the first post.

I think Guild Wars 2 PVE is great. I have a lot of fun with it. I’m glad the trinity is gone and that, so far, ArenaNet hasn’t gone back on that promise.

Plenty of people seem to be enjoying PVE when I play. Zergs can be fun, and it isn’t like they’re the only things available. And a lot of time when things seem like a chaotic mess, it is because there are a wide variety of experience levels in the event. It isn’t like WoW where one guy looked up what to do on YouTube and tells everyone where to stand and what to do.

Play an event often enough on a given server, and you’ll see people develop knowledge of the event and each other and implement group tactics in that event organically. It is teamwork, it just isn’t boss and flunkies, cog-in-a-machine teamwork.

You can still get together with your friends and/or guildies and make a super-special plan, but everyone doesn’t have to.

I don’t like fractals, or any dungeon that forces you into a 5-person group. I don’t want them removed. I just don’t want to have them be mandatory for me to complete my personal story or get ascended gear.

I don’t really get why people want things they don’t enjoy removed rather than having stuff they like added. Does it really bother people that much that some people are enjoying something they don’t personally like? Does every single piece of a game have to only contain things that cater to one audience?

If so, that audience should be fans of Bioware games and the entire personal storyline should be focused on pursuing intimate relationships with all the NPCs. Then my character’s risen lover and I can have angsty conversations about how were going to kiss when she has no lips. They could cut out Fractals and replace it with a Tunnel of Love.

shrug Agree with the OP. Valid points are valid, regardless of how people feel.

lmko @ the amount of hate in this thread.

Now, let the flaming continue because clearly the OP and I are not entitled to our opinion and need to leave… /eyeroll

The only problem with this, is that ANet had already designed the no trinity system before we had even known that Gw2 was being developed. That said, it’s up to them how they want to implement mechanics, and I think enough people like the “open role” system to warrant not looking back. Gw2 is quite fun, and in my opinion, the combat is more engaging than in most other “trinity” games. I love being downed, because I know I did something wrong, possibly more than just not hit skill 4 at the precise time I was supposed to. Gw2 clearly is not for everyone, but for people to demand/ask for a mechanic that isn’t in the design of a game, is just ridiculous, and sad. The trinity was not intended for this game, and it won’t be added to it.

Hawkmoon.5849:

shrug Agree with the OP. Valid points are valid, regardless of how people feel.

lmko @ the amount of hate in this thread.

Now, let the flaming continue because clearly the OP and I are not entitled to our opinion and need to leave… /eyeroll

You’re entitled to your opinion. The valid point is you and the OP don’t like those things, not that those things are wrong. Roll your eyes all you want. It is easier than actually supporting the opinion you want others to take as fact. Maybe you can look up the perfect winning tactic for your argument on YouTube, get a group together, give them explicit instructions, and win your point.

I don’t know if it’s realistic to make such a change in a game like this. The extent of redesign needed to bring the trinity role into the game may make this a moot point altogether.

I think I do agree with some of the symptoms the OP describes, but I do not think his solutions are realistic.

But which issues are there, because of the lack of trinity?

I am not so much interested in what’s better between a trinity or lack thereof in this particular game, but I am more interested in what the trinity actually represents: role division.

In a team, the idea is that everybody plays their part. And you would play the part that you are most comfortable with or enjoy the most. Now, games have classes and skill trees, roles etc. so people can make choices. You choose a class, a gender, a race. You start playing and make choices about which skills to equip which activities you do etc.

Choice.

What I believe the underlying issue to be in GW2 is the lack of choice on a few elemental levels and there’s nothing that replaces this. Role division is one of these elements and the one that is relevant to this thread.

I am not saying that we need a trinity as we see in pretty much any other game of this type, but when trying to innovate or change habits, just taking something away doesn’t really work. You need to put something else in its place or people will continually feel something is missing.

It seems to me that when you say the trinity goes out, that it would be best to replace it with another role division rather than none. In the end people want to play their part and say I am good at this or I enjoy this.

When you build an organisation, you need certain jobs to be filled. The jobs are created based on need and this makes sense to the organisation. If you create a community, people also fulfill differnt roles. It’s natural.

So what happens in a game where there is no need for class types? We have heavy armour classes but what can they bring to the table that other classes can’t and actually is needed?

Play warrior cause it has great dps.

No, everybody is on a single scale between support and dps. Just move the scale from left to right and there is your character somewhere on that line. We have glass cannon elementalists for example on the dps side or support engineers on the other side. Just a couple of variations, many more exist with the same classes even.

In fact you can vary endlessly…as long as you stay on that line between dps and support. Sure you can make a healy or tanky build but it’s not needed and in the end the party wants enough dps from everybody so you can go through the dungeons more quickly. I think my complaint here is that between support and dps you have two dimensions that are not distinct in their roles instead of 3 dimensions with clear parts to play.

The bottom line for me is that the trinity aside from everything else is a clear role division and it’s something that many people do look for. Where do I fit in? What makes my class different than another?

How many classes can wield a GS?

Role division is lacking in this game. Call it good or bad, it is missing and this is something that makes GW2 “not the game they were looking for”. The lack of role division is clear by the absence of a trinity but only because nothing was brought in to replace it. Skills, classes, traits…also these do not really support a role choice.

But I suppose if I look at the personal storyline in this game, your character’s role is indeed the part that is secondary to everything. Still, bringin the trinity will not be a solution for GW2. I would suggest to Anet though that they’d have another look at their classes and think about what they can do to make the classes more distinct.

I definitely do not support this! I hate the trinity and I’m perfectly happy with it being away. What enemies need is more interesting designs. Now there’s very limited bag of tricks they can use and there is no difference between veteran and champion mob and regular mob other than in damage numbers and size of hp pool/resistances.

Below are a few mechanics suggestions. These are for veteran and champion enemies. Seriously both need an overhaul. Currently vets for example in Orr have ridiculous amount of HP. Some even have damage to back it up but this is more annoying than anything since it is uniform increase in damage and hp. What they need are high damage “special moves” that are counterable.

1. Chain blast: enemy starts powerup which results to a massively damaging blast which strikes first person and then leaps to another person. The chain grows stronger for each target it hits. The chain ends immediatelly on the first dodge/block.
2. Counterblast: enemy blocks and launches a massively damaging ranged counterblast if hit while blocking. Alternatively make it kb or cause multiple stacks of bleed/confusion.
3. Consume conditions: enemy builds up a condition counter and once it hits certain number it consumes them healing itself back to full health. Interrupting enemy resets counters.
4. Explosive font: like lava font except it end up into an AoE explosion that throws multiple small AoE “bombs” similar to cluster bomb
5. Seeker: enemy launches a slow moving projectile that keeps tracking a single target until the enemy is dead or the seeker is blocked/hits target. Enemy can have only one seeker out but it’s insta down if it hits.
6. TP Bombs: enemy summons multiple floating projectiles that lock on random players. They have a blinking counter after which they teleport to locked players, deal damage, and knock them down.

The key in all of these is that they need to be obvious enough so they can be avoided and effective enough so players want to avoid them. We are talking about insta down or similar level damage, fear, kb, 20 stacks of confusion and other significant effects here.

Vasham.2408:

It’s a well known fact that GW2’s PVE is horrible.

I like most of the PvE, so this is news to me.

The holy trinity was a lazy approach to encounter design. It used to be good back in the day when DPS were forced to watch their threat or die, and the raid/party wiped when the healers went out-of-mana.

Blizzard warped it later on though, they gave tanks infinite threat (where they could only lose aggro during the first 10 seconds) and the lazy inclusion of enrage timers meant they didn’t need to balance mana/mana regen anymore.

If a game allowed each character to play as every profession/class, and didn’t require gear/stats to play in each role, then you could make a game with more than 3 roles, knowing that any player could fill any role at any time. I could accept that, but the inflexible and lazy system Blizzard used needs to be eliminated from MMOs.

ArenaNet are on the right track, but again, their system has its own flaws they will need to address.

If anything the combat needs to be spiced up and evolve more, not de-evolve into trinity based combat.