Guild Wars 2

Gehenna.3625:

What I believe the underlying issue to be in GW2 is the lack of choice on a few elemental levels and there’s nothing that replaces this. Role division is one of these elements and the one that is relevant to this thread.

I am not saying that we need a trinity as we see in pretty much any other game of this type, but when trying to innovate or change habits, just taking something away doesn’t really work. You need to put something else in its place or people will continually feel something is missing.

They did put something in the place of the trinity – freedom to play your character the way you want without being forced in an arbitrary role. I’m feeling that the trinity is missing and it is a good feeling.

Gehenna.3625:

It seems to me that when you say the trinity goes out, that it would be best to replace it with another role division rather than none. In the end people want to play their part and say I am good at this or I enjoy this.

I don’t want to play a part, or be a cog in someone’s machine. I am good at playing a Ranger and Warrior. I enjoy playing a Ranger and Warrior and Thief. I’m only OK at playing a Thief, but I’ll get better. I also enjoy playing a Necromancer, Elementalist, Engineer, Guardian and Mesmer. I haven’t played them long enough to know how good I am at them. But they are all different and distinct.

Gehenna.3625:

When you build an organisation, you need certain jobs to be filled. The jobs are created based on need and this makes sense to the organisation. If you create a community, people also fulfill differnt roles. It’s natural.

I don’t want to be a lackey in someone’s organization. I don’t want to know my know my place. If I did, I’d be playing Thomas the Train.

Gehenna.3625:

Role division is lacking in this game. Call it good or bad, it is missing and this is something that makes GW2 “not the game they were looking for”. The lack of role division is clear by the absence of a trinity but only because nothing was brought in to replace it. Skills, classes, traits…also these do not really support a role choice.

They don’t support a role choice. They support a wider variety of choices rather than a few limited choices. I have plenty of choices in real life. None of them are which prison to go to for the rest of my life. Adding the choice of which prison I want to go to for the rest of my life would result in fewer choices other choices and less freedom.

Zantetsuken.9051:

The holy trinity was a lazy approach to encounter design. It used to be good back in the day when DPS were forced to watch their threat or die, and the raid/party wiped when the healers went out-of-mana.

Blizzard warped it later on though, they gave tanks infinite threat (where they could only lose aggro during the first 10 seconds) and the lazy inclusion of enrage timers meant they didn’t need to balance mana/mana regen anymore.

If a game allowed each character to play as every profession/class, and didn’t require gear/stats to play in each role, then you could make a game with more than 3 roles, knowing that any player could fill any role at any time. I could accept that, but the inflexible and lazy system Blizzard used needs to be eliminated from MMOs.

ArenaNet are on the right track, but again, their system has its own flaws they will need to address.

So what’s your point? Blizzard were lazy when making WoW and it’s still 25x more succesful than GW2? Blizzard are lazy with the most succesful MMO in history but GW2 isn’t lazy with a game that feels like an inactive beta 4 months into release?
I agree.

I suppose I’ll be in the minority, when I say I agree with the OP. The thing people seem to be completely missing is the fact some people (yours truly included) like playing healers, tanks or other support classes. In fact one of my biggest grievances with GW2 is that I want to be a healer, but the game does not want me to be one. I’m perfectly content letting others shine, quietly supporting them, boosting their damage, keeping them up or disabling the enemy, but GW2 insist that I’m right there spewing out as much DPS as possible or I’ll be “useless” to the group.

Then again, I suppose the people most vehemently opposed to “trinity” are probably people who generally play DPS classes in said MMOs. It’s pure statistics mostly, since DPS classes are usually most numerous and thus also “least wanted” in groups, so it’s understandable that they like the whole “everyone’s DPS” approach.

Also, there is more than one way to skin a cat and having trinity mechanics doesn’t mean you have to have pure trinity class system. You could have a completely classless system that still had trinity mechanics at heart, where anyone or everyone could take healing skills or tanking skills. In fact one of my favourite trinity implementations of recent years was Rift, where each class could essentially do everything, but you could also specialise in a single role if you wanted. Too bad the game failed in other areas.

What could happen, in the completely hypothetical situation that Anet decided that they want to make it possible for people like me to play their beloved healers, tanks or general support? Well most of the mechanics are already in game, all it would really require is boosting healing output, shortening cooldowns, increasing mitigation and making blocking more important etc. Also, to say that it would drastically change the core PVE mechanics is a bit strange, since by all accounts there isn’t a whole lot of endgame PVE content to begin with, so they could just start implementing the stuff in future content.

So there you have it. I personally like having well defined class roles, I like playing pure support and consequently, I’m not really enjoying GW2 as much as I could be, which is a kitten shame, because in other areas like UI, general fluidity of gameplay, crafting mechanics, dynamic events etc., it’s simply light years ahead the competition.

Disagree.

Interesting encounter mechanics that encourage true teamwork (as opposed to everyone in the team going through their rotations), not the Trinity, make for interesting PvE.

As long as you got them, then you don’t need the Trinity.

MisterEction.9382:

They did put something in the place of the trinity – freedom to play your character the way you want without being forced in an arbitrary role. I’m feeling that the trinity is missing and it is a good feeling..

Freedom if choice is pointless if the choices are meaningless. Also there are different types of players to consider. I cannot play the character the way I want in this game at all. Because of the lack of roles, first of all I cannot choose a role. This means I cannot make that choice. Again different players want different things. From my point of view your freedom of choice just means not making choices.

Oh and the trinity are not arbitrary roles. Anything but. I also stated that I don’t think the trinity would be what this game needs btw. But what good is freedom of choice if there’s nothing to choose really?

MisterEction.9382:

I don’t want to play a part, or be a cog in someone’s machine. I am good at playing a Ranger and Warrior. I enjoy playing a Ranger and Warrior and Thief. I’m only OK at playing a Thief, but I’ll get better. I also enjoy playing a Necromancer, Elementalist, Engineer, Guardian and Mesmer. I haven’t played them long enough to know how good I am at them. But they are all different and distinct. .

They are different and distinct in flavour but not in what part they play. It’s like saying you have an engineer and a psychologist and you both end up having the same job working at McDonalds. That’s how GW2 feels to me. It’s all dumbed down so that everybody can pretty much do everything.

MisterEction.9382:

I don’t want to be a lackey in someone’s organization. I don’t want to know my know my place. If I did, I’d be playing Thomas the Train..

This is the thing. You are al lackey in this game and you do have a place. It’s the second to Trahearne. That is your place. Your class doesn’t make a kitten difference. You see classes do not need to be fixed to a role for me. For all I care all classes can fulfil all roles in a game for me. In SWTOR for example (just as an example), most advanced classes can fulfil 2 of the 3 roles in trinity. I can still choose a class and choose the role I want to play.

But for all of it’s freedom, you will see that people are still looking for their place, because it’s only natural to make choices and decide what you want to be. But what’s the point of choice if the results of these choices are meaningless? Freedom of choice by itself has no meaning if the choices that are available have no meaning. In other games I do not feel forced to play a certain role, because I can choose and play multiple characters. So plenty of choice. Restrictions I only find here in GW2 on the skill bar level and trait system, but that’s another issue.

MisterEction.9382:

They don’t support a role choice. They support a wider variety of choices rather than a few limited choices. I have plenty of choices in real life. None of them are which prison to go to for the rest of my life. Adding the choice of which prison I want to go to for the rest of my life would result in fewer choices other choices and less freedom.

A wider variety of choices? There is nothing to choose. That’s the point. You have less choices in this game actually and that is the freedom you perceive. You don’t have to choose a role on any level. I don’t care if it’s part of the class, team play or whatever but a few choices are still more than none. That’s what you don’t get. You are not being held responsible in this game for your part. That’s the freedom you feel.

Look at the threads about MF. People who are in a dungeon with MF gear, being less effective and therefore costing the rest of the party time and effort, while you rake in the rewards. Again, no one can tell and you are not being held responsible.

How many people just auto attack in boss fights? These things all come because it doesn’t really matter and since there is no clarity in any shape or form about who does what, there is also no accountability.

True freedom is a lie. What you see as freedom I see as a restriction. Why? Because three choices is still more than no choice.

If you then go down to the skill bar, then you see you must play a certain way. Where is your freedom now, when you must take 5 skills from weapon choice (whether you like the weapon type or not, whether you need those skills or not), and slot 6 must be a heal and slot 10 must be an elite that only is elite in PvP/WvW.

PvE in GW2 is superficial and meaningless because you don’t make choices and there are no real consequences.

Boring.

You can be a good support character, but you do need to DPS.

The choices are not meaningless, the distinctions are merely more subtle. The consequences are most likely exactly what ANet wanted them to be, more rewarding for those that diverge from the beaten path.

Fractals as a dungeon is the best tool ANet has so far rolled out to both teach and emphasize this. Good Fractal groups are not the ones where “everyone does her own thing” but where each member is using their strengths in a coordinated fashion to get that objective. The same goes for WvW and SPvP, there is a distinct difference between those who roll in the 50 man train and those that can hold or take a tower with eight people. These are the crucibles that distill the roles, even as granular as they are, that already exist. If you are not playing in those, you really aren’t learning the limitations and strengths of your character.

Anyone can run with no skill into a zone event with fifty players and get the gold reward without consequences. That isn’t a failure of game design, but an accommodation for the weight of numbers. The risk elements withdraw in favor of simple scaling because the game devs consciously made the decision that participation is more important than some esoteric “balance.” They want people in events, not create barriers to entry by skill, class or time invested. That is why so many of the events are not instanced.

As for the OP, while many of his opinions are just as valid as others, he isn’t entitled to express them as “facts” or “truths.” When he then peppers them with ad hominem replies to those who differ, and liberally inserts personal attacks against the developers in hopes of shoring up his “knows better than all of you” credentials (along with the age old pre-disqualifying rebuttals of a debate pedantry) then he is only deserving of public shaming and his points are largely lost as casualties of negative noise.

Well folks we are all entitled to express our own views, so from a casual player here are mine.

In both WoW and Rift all Instances and Raids completed at the correct level depended on the trinity to play.

Substantially scripted, with all individuals playing a very defined part, all we ever really needed to do was to consult the relevant website to “learn our lines” like an actor or actress in a play and movie. All you had to do was to act your part, that is tank, heal or dps, virtually never departing from the script

Individuality was frowned upon at best and at worst was called “cheating”, finding intelligent “work around’s” for bosses would quite often result in a nurf. I do accept there were exceptions here and there, for example the Lich King boss encounter (as a whole) and parts of Kara in WoW, and some 2 people Chronicles in Rift that could be soloed.

By and large though for me raiding had started to become very predictable, in short a memory test dependent on quick reflexes and efficient macros

I completed my (almost) first ever Instance last night in GW2. It has occured to me everything player side cannot be absolutely predicted, and yes we have to be multi functional units, tanking, healing, and DPS ing dependent on the situation.

Concluding, I could never ever consult a website here to learn exactly what, how, and when, to “do something” here. For me that makes it interesting, and perhaps even more so if GW2 ever introduce more formal raiding.

Just my own views folks

Doing dungeons in this game kinda reminds me of a slow paced diablo 3 with smaller numbers.

Kizyc.1892:

The choices are not meaningless, the distinctions are merely more subtle. The consequences are most likely exactly what ANet wanted them to be, more rewarding for those that diverge from the beaten path.

Fractals as a dungeon is the best tool ANet has so far rolled out to both teach and emphasize this. Good Fractal groups are not the ones where “everyone does her own thing” but where each member is using their strengths in a coordinated fashion to get that objective. The same goes for WvW and SPvP, there is a distinct difference between those who roll in the 50 man train and those that can hold or take a tower with eight people. These are the crucibles that distill the roles, even as granular as they are, that already exist. If you are not playing in those, you really aren’t learning the limitations and strengths of your character.

Anyone can run with no skill into a zone event with fifty players and get the gold reward without consequences. That isn’t a failure of game design, but an accommodation for the weight of numbers. The risk elements withdraw in favor of simple scaling because the game devs consciously made the decision that participation is more important than some esoteric “balance.” They want people in events, not create barriers to entry by skill, class or time invested. That is why so many of the events are not instanced.

As for the OP, while many of his opinions are just as valid as others, he isn’t entitled to express them as “facts” or “truths.” When he then peppers them with ad hominem replies to those who differ, and liberally inserts personal attacks against the developers in hopes of shoring up his “knows better than all of you” credentials (along with the age old pre-disqualifying rebuttals of a debate pedantry) then he is only deserving of public shaming and his points are largely lost as casualties of negative noise.

I would suggest rereading your own post, I even quoted it for you, and realise how often you state things as facts yourself.

Calling choices subtle is total bull by the way. How is it more subtle? How does an absence of actual choices make choices more subtle.

How is it subtle that you must take a heal skill on slot 6 for example? The choices in this game are pointless because the effects of the choices are negligble. It doesn’t really matter what you do.

What’s subtle about making fractals the one place to grind by making it the most rewarding activity?

I can go on.

To me, and that is of course my opinion, what you might call subtle, is what I call superficial. I could equip a weapon, add whatever skills in the second part of the skill bar, add traits randomly, without even looking and equip full magic find gear and still do level 80 dungeons. Sure, the party might suffer, but who cares right?

No, I do not see this subtlety you vaguely refer to and the rest of your comments is full of the same opinion-as-fact stating that you accuse the other guy of.

Vasham.2408:

It’s a well known fact that GW2’s PVE is horrible.

This first statement smacks of hyperbole and it continues at points throughout your post. I have not read nor seen sources to back this statement up in any mass that would make it true.

Your post is well written and your opinion which is perfectly fine on a forum. It seems though, that the problem might not lie in the game itself but in the fact that you just aren’t happy with what it is. That happens. Rather than try and say a game which was never designed the way you describe should change, why not simply say you tried a game with a different approach and didn’t like it.

That approach doesn’t mean the game will fail, it simply means it might not be for you.

Gehenna.3625:

Freedom if choice is pointless if the choices are meaningless. Also there are different types of players to consider. I cannot play the character the way I want in this game at all. Because of the lack of roles, first of all I cannot choose a role. This means I cannot make that choice. Again different players want different things. From my point of view your freedom of choice just means not making choices.

Perhaps you and the OP have to consider that GW2 is not the game for you like trinity games are not for me. I never really got into WoW and I used to hate games like EQ2 because of two reasons: forced teaming and trinity. There were no real alternatives though so I dropped the MMOs years ago and weren’t back until GW2 was released. Currently there are still plenty of trinity games and very few games where the trinity does not exist. Even less of those are fantasy mmorpgs.

I like GW2 combat just fine and that no matter which class I play no one is going to tell me my choice of playstyle is the wrong way. I play classes because I enjoy the concept but in most games if you don’t fit into a specific role then you have no place to be in a group.

Not to mention GW2 gives me the freedom to team or not team as I seem fit. I can do things solo and I can do stuff in teams.

My only lament is that even GW2 combat is not quite action heavy enough and PvE doesn’t demand any significant level of awareness. GW2 still shows a lot “traditional” roots by having enemies that are merely big bags of HP as opposed to a set of interesting mechanics that encourage above mentioned player awareness. I don’t want trinity. I want certain level of challenge.

Well Gehenna " It’s a game forum. The truth is not to be found here." (your footer) is debatable too. My own post above was how I honestly feel, and over a few years I have picked up a few useful pointers from game forums.

Off topic here is an amusing one -:) it is true too !

" Ah but a pessimists life is actually happier than an optimists. An optimist has a lot of disappointment, when something goes wrong for a pessimist they expected it anyway. However as a pessimist you get a lot of pleasant surprises when things don’t go wrong as you expected them to. "

I get what you mean.

Without trinity, avatars have no personalised roles.

This is like human nature in reality.

[Examples]
In a room with a doctor and 4 other people. The doctor feels special because he has something the other 4 doesn’t have. That’s medical skills.

In a room with a architect and 4 other people. The architect feels special because he has something the other 4 doesn’t have. That’s construction skills.

If all 5 of them can be anyone, they don’t need each other anymore.
There’s no reason for them to treat each other with value.

A mmorpg where no players feel like a hero.
People appreciate something they lack.
If they have everything, they won’t appreciate anything.

No system is perfect.

This is how the game is designed and I doubt they would bring it back.

Ranlea.8270:

Well Gehenna " It’s a game forum. The truth is not to be found here." (your footer) is debatable too. My own post above was how I honestly feel, and over a few years I have picked up a few useful pointers from game forums.

Off topic here is an amusing one -:) it is true too !

" Ah but a pessimists life is actually happier than an optimists. An optimist has a lot of disappointment, when something goes wrong for a pessimist they expected it anyway. However as a pessimist you get a lot of pleasant surprises when things don’t go wrong as you expected them to. "

I didn’t actually respond to your post above so not sure why you say this, but the truth is that I can be wrong just as much as anyone. Everything is opinion on a forum and that includes me. So my signature just indicates that everybody’s comments should be taken with a pinch of salt ….and that includes me.

The dynamic combat we have in this game reflect combat much better than any trinity can.

Example: Moria sequence in the LotR movie. How many of the heroes stand still and face tank the troll? How many of the heroes use the sorroundings to their advantage and try to dodge the troll?

Do you seriously think a hit from a 500 Ton dragon would just be something to shake off when in a plate armor? No you would probably more look like the empty coke can that got run over by the buss.

The system with dodging just makes more sense and gives the game more of a live feeling. Sure blocking a swipe here and there from the dragon is ok, but standing there and taking a beating face to face while getting healed. That logic leads me to think healers could actually get ground meat back on its feet.

Naoko.7096:

A mmorpg where no players feel like a hero.
People appreciate something they lack.

If they have everything, they won’t appreciate anything.
No system is perfect.
This is how the game is designed and I doubt they would bring it back.

Is this a poem?

I like it!

Gehenna.3625:

I would suggest rereading your own post, I even quoted it for you, and realise how often you state things as facts yourself.

Calling choices subtle is total bull by the way. How is it more subtle? How does an absence of actual choices make choices more subtle.

How is it subtle that you must take a heal skill on slot 6 for example? The choices in this game are pointless because the effects of the choices are negligble. It doesn’t really matter what you do.

What’s subtle about making fractals the one place to grind by making it the most rewarding activity?

I can go on.

To me, and that is of course my opinion, what you might call subtle, is what I call superficial. I could equip a weapon, add whatever skills in the second part of the skill bar, add traits randomly, without even looking and equip full magic find gear and still do level 80 dungeons. Sure, the party might suffer, but who cares right?

No, I do not see this subtlety you vaguely refer to and the rest of your comments is full of the same opinion-as-fact stating that you accuse the other guy of.

Actually, it isn’t but since you seem stuck on the word subtle, I won’t reiterate why there is a difference between stating something as “probably something” from stating it as “fact.” The few things I did state as fact are already out there, such as the Dev’s multiple design diaries and interviews on participation v. barriers to entry, or even the small differences between skills to create new roles in a group where most expect solid one-trick-ponies. That WvW/SPvP and the PVE of Fractals are the best tools to learn this is more of an opinion, true, but one with more than a decent amount of anecdotal evidence.

Since you bring up the Healing Slot, we’ll walk down how subtle it can be based on where you might fit in a group. Are you overbuilt on Vitality and Toughness so you take far longer to die than the glass cannons? Maybe your role is to slot an AoE heal to cover for weaker players. Or provide area fields for removing conditions or providing others your regen. Maybe trait for a trap or reflection when you revive a downed player. Maybe your role is to slot a constant regen heal and complimentary signet so you can stay in the face of whatever the group is working on to take the heat off others. Maybe you’re a glass cannon and need to slot a retreat based heal so you can go in, spike damage and fall behind the rest of the group to recover for another run. Is your gear sub-par so your damage is low and is your role to re-trait healing power and be the go-to downed player revive, freeing up the rest of the team?

That’s just off the top of my head with my own builds and the questions I ask when joining a Dungeon group or WvW Havoc squad. There are just as many with the other utility skills and how they mesh with the skills, weapons and build bases of a party. None of those choices are meaningless, and none do not actually factor into the success or failure of a group. Even simple choices such as how many Swiftness buffs are available and who has which combo fields available can turn a pick up group into a seamless machine.

That is what is subtle about this game. If you take the time to invest in your decisions and talk to your teammates you are rewarded for the effort. Just as you are rewarded for going a different way and not following the train (that is a fact, it’s called the Exploration Bonus XP.)

Just because there is no gross differentiation in the roles of Tank, DPS, Healer, doesn’t meant there is no distinction at all or that all choices are irrelevant, as you and the OP would have us believe.

Northlander.4619:

Gehenna.3625:

Freedom if choice is pointless if the choices are meaningless. Also there are different types of players to consider. I cannot play the character the way I want in this game at all. Because of the lack of roles, first of all I cannot choose a role. This means I cannot make that choice. Again different players want different things. From my point of view your freedom of choice just means not making choices.

Perhaps you and the OP have to consider that GW2 is not the game for you like trinity games are not for me. I never really got into WoW and I used to hate games like EQ2 because of two reasons: forced teaming and trinity. There were no real alternatives though so I dropped the MMOs years ago and weren’t back until GW2 was released. Currently there are still plenty of trinity games and very few games where the trinity does not exist. Even less of those are fantasy mmorpgs.

Oh and that is a fair comment. I just come here from time to time for the discussion. I stopped playing GW2 when fractals came out and cleaned out my characters and gave all the gold to my wife who still plays.

Let me just state again, that I do not think that the trinity is a solution for GW2. I said this already but people keep confusing my wish for more choice and complexity in roles with wanting the same old trinity. That is in fact not what I said and am still not saying that. The game is too simplistic for me however is it is now and even though I welcome new ideas, GW2 didn’t come up with a better one than the existing trinity in my view.

What ticks me off most is that people respond more to what they think I said, instead of what I actually said. On the one hand it’s easy to misinterpret but on the other hand people just want me to mean something because it suits them better.

Again I DO NOT ADVOCATE THE TRINITY FOR GW2.

It wouldn’t work for GW2. What I do wish is more actual choices that make the game more interesting, have more depth, to replace the lack of role choice. Something is missing that simply hasn’t been replaced by other choices. That’s not the same as wanting the trinity in this game. If it some point the game improves where I want to play it again, it wouldn’t be adding the trinity.

Then define it in specifics instead of the generalist non-definition ‘choice’.

SneakyErvin.3056:

The dynamic combat we have in this game reflect combat much better than any trinity can.

Example: Moria sequence in the LotR movie. How many of the heroes stand still and face tank the troll? How many of the heroes use the sorroundings to their advantage and try to dodge the troll?

Do you seriously think a hit from a 500 Ton dragon would just be something to shake off when in a plate armor? No you would probably more look like the empty coke can that got run over by the buss.

The system with dodging just makes more sense and gives the game more of a live feeling. Sure blocking a swipe here and there from the dragon is ok, but standing there and taking a beating face to face while getting healed. That logic leads me to think healers could actually get ground meat back on its feet.

I like this too.

Never really thought about it that way. And counter argument will always go along the line of “mechanics is more important than realism/lore/theme”. And it’s true. The culture of game design over the decades has always emphasized this.

But I like this thought.

Gehenna.3625:

What ticks me off most is that people respond more to what they think I said, instead of what I actually said. On the one hand it’s easy to misinterpret but on the other hand people just want me to mean something because it suits them better.

Boy you must be disappointed a lot in life.

@Kizyc

They are not facts. Just because the devs say something doesn’t make it the truth or a fact. You should try not to trust people who try to sell you something too much. It’s not wise.

I came back to the subtlety issue, because of a simple reason. It was unsubstantiated and the only thing that could’ve been a useful argument in your post…if you had something to back it up. But you didn’t.

Also people like you keep wanting to push me in the “trinity for GW2” corner.

So let’s break this cycle. I DO NOT ASK FOR TRINITY IN GW2.

Get it?

I want some complexity that replaces the lack of roles or different roles to choose from. But something to choose that actually makes a real difference beyond the name of my class. The whole game is about inconsequential choices, even the story line.

The game still has roles: 2 of them. DPS and support. But everybody has both. So again not really a choice. The trait system you could do with your eyes closed. You can add points randomly.

Yes, it does make a difference but not enough to actually really make it worthwhile looking into it. sPvP is currently dead, PvE is bland and WvW is zerg. So who cares what you choose? It’s the fact that all these choices don’t really make a big enough difference to matter. That’s my concern. As I stated earlier, I think the OP is right about some of his symptoms but not his solutions.

I do not see trinity as a solution for GW2, but the game as a whole is just too simplistic because any complexity that does exist is really of little or no consequence.

Gehenna.3625:

I want some complexity that replaces the lack of roles or different roles to choose from. But something to choose that actually makes a real difference beyond the name of my class.

Suggestions?

Vasham.2408:

Coldtart.4785:

The trinity in other mmos takes absolutely zero skill. So long as you know what you have to do and when and your gear is up to par, you cannot fail. You may as well play DDR on your keyboard.

I find this statement funny. Anyone who makes this remark clearly has zero experience in true endgame content in other MMOs. Have you ever killed Algalon the Observer? Maybe Akylios? How about any boss from Final Fantasy 11? I would wager any player who says the trinity takes zero skill probably played WoW to level thirty and quit.

The most basic of endgame encounters in any other MMO you can mention put GW2 to shame in terms of challenge and skill requirement. This isn’t an opinion, it’s a fact.

I raided in WoW from Vanilla through Lich King, completing all the raids, including the Hard mode ones if apply. I have found that the 5 man dungeons in GW2 to actually be more of a challenge each and every time, then any raid in WoW. Why is this? Because once you got the strategy down with a WoW raid, you would do the same thing over and over and over again, nothing ever changed. In GW2 5 man dungeons, depending on what classes are in my group, and their builds, what we had to do changed every time, having to come up with new strategies every time, lots being changed on the go.

leave things as they are. Everyone is now responsible for its own actions as it should always have been to begin with.
Also: I thoroughly enjoy GW2’s PVE (and lore in particular) so it’s beyond my comprehension your hate for it

PvE in GW 2 is more satisfying than any other game I’ve been in. I’ve played a myriad of other MMORPGS. The only games that comes close to being this satisfying in pve is Rift(Due to Rift invasions) and World of Warcraft(Due to the massive amount of pve content).

As far as removing the Trinity? No. If you want the trinity there are plenty of other fine MMORPG’s out there that you can play. The lack of a trinity is one of the big reasons why I bought this game. While I understand some of your reasons for desiring the trinity, I don’t think it’s reason enough to change it for everyone else who bought this game due to not having to sit in LFG for an hour looking for a tank and a healer.

Sylv.5324:

Gehenna.3625:

I want some complexity that replaces the lack of roles or different roles to choose from. But something to choose that actually makes a real difference beyond the name of my class.

Suggestions?

Already made them in various threads. But think about a complete rework of the trait system as well as the UI for it. Clarity in tooltips so you can see the numbers change when you change traits and atttributes. I mean, why does a tooltip not tell me I get a 10% of something and when someone else sees the buff on my toon it tells them I got 10% of that something. A skill bar with more freedom to select skills rather than being linked to weapon sets and being forced to take one heal and an elite that is worse than your normal skills. Actual need for strategy. Tougher dragon fights, making it possible to fail those events and not get the rewards.

There really are 3 basic issues here:

Lack of transparency in the UI, making any existing depth virtually invisible.
Lack of strategy in group activities.
Lack of freedom and flexibility in the skill bar.

Deny it all you want. The trinity is gone, it’s a good decision and it improves the game as a whole over bad mmo’s (read: anything not made by arena.net)

Gehenna.3625:

I do not see trinity as a solution for GW2, but the game as a whole is just too simplistic because any complexity that does exist is really of little or no consequence.

You’re right. The question now is – what is the alternative here?

Trinity, in all its flaws, is already by far the most elegant, most refined manifestation of role-defined combat systems. No one designer came up with this concept that there must be three distinct roles that augment each other. Its a product of decades of vernacular game design and user input.

And then people were saying “we are getting sick of it; same thing over and over”. So Anet did something specifically to go against this restricted system – for better or worse – and did it all the way to the other end of the extreme if you’d ask me.

This is the point where we say.. this is one of those things that effectively should be considered as black-and-white. If not this system, then what? It can only be Trinity.

I wouldnt mind trinity back, but I also wouldnt mind if Anet would improve the current combat system. Its indeed very boring and its hard to find any challange after you mastered giganticus lupicus and priestess of dwayna

Gehenna.3625:

@Kizyc

They are not facts. Just because the devs say something doesn’t make it the truth or a fact. You should try not to trust people who try to sell you something too much. It’s not wise.

I came back to the subtlety issue, because of a simple reason. It was unsubstantiated and the only thing that could’ve been a useful argument in your post…if you had something to back it up. But you didn’t.

Also people like you keep wanting to push me in the “trinity for GW2” corner.

So let’s break this cycle. I DO NOT ASK FOR TRINITY IN GW2.

Get it?

I want some complexity that replaces the lack of roles or different roles to choose from. But something to choose that actually makes a real difference beyond the name of my class. The whole game is about inconsequential choices, even the story line.

The game still has roles: 2 of them. DPS and support. But everybody has both. So again not really a choice. The trait system you could do with your eyes closed. You can add points randomly.

Yes, it does make a difference but not enough to actually really make it worthwhile looking into it. sPvP is currently dead, PvE is bland and WvW is zerg. So who cares what you choose? It’s the fact that all these choices don’t really make a big enough difference to matter. That’s my concern. As I stated earlier, I think the OP is right about some of his symptoms but not his solutions.

I do not see trinity as a solution for GW2, but the game as a whole is just too simplistic because any complexity that does exist is really of little or no consequence.

Now I see why you are so exasperated. If you are so untrusting as to not take the word of the persons who designed the game at face value as to why they made the choices they did, then there is no level of information you would consider fact. You have made your mind up and any information can only be seen through the prism of your narrow set of opinions. Even when I gave a rather exhaustive example of the (sometimes drastic) differences in what a healing slot can or can’t do, you return the debate to your perceived category of what is opinion and what is fact rather than recognize that there is a difference in those choices.

Combine this with your stated opinions of SPvP (where knowing your role is absolutely essential), WvW (not everyone zergs and those that do not, have to know their place) and that you abandoned the game without seeing the training ground of the Fractals for what they are in PVE (a steady difficulty scaling experience that teaches group tactics much better than the fixed difficulty dungeons) leads one to conclude that you just come here to foster dissent rather than have any meaningful contribution.

So noted.

Also, I was actually coloring your statements as a call for gross differentiation (which is a synonym for meaningful choices) as well as calling out the OP’s desire for a trinity. Not necessarily saying they were the same response.

Nayru.4537:

Did anyone else forsee the white knight brigade on this thread?

Anyway, OP, the game not having tanks, healers, dps is a big factor in why it’s only sold 2m copies. (probably more than half of those quit)

So if they want to see their game fail, let them. Why let it bother you?

2 Million copies in the first couple of weeks since launch. We do not have any numbers for after that.

Also, no Trinity is one of the reasons why I bought the game.

Completely agree with the OP. the abandonment of the trinity is a huge problem for GW2.

However, the entire game and combat would have to be redesigned and quite frankly, it’s not worth wasting time on this game… it’s too far gone. Move on to another game.

eisberg.2379:

Nayru.4537:

Did anyone else forsee the white knight brigade on this thread?

Anyway, OP, the game not having tanks, healers, dps is a big factor in why it’s only sold 2m copies. (probably more than half of those quit)

So if they want to see their game fail, let them. Why let it bother you?

2 Million copies in the first couple of weeks since launch. We do not have any numbers for after that.

Also, no Trinity is one of the reasons why I bought the game.

Because it hasn’t gone past 2m sales. Also, no trinity is why millions of people didn’t buy this game.

Well, in my opinion, more then 10 years and this genre is struggling to truly evolve into a true next generation of MMO’s. Quite frankly there isn’t one since like the OP there are still many people that cling to the old ways of how MMO’s are played.

I have been playing them since Anarchy Online, and I am so sick of how most of these MMO’s come out – disguise the combat and quests only to find out once you fell for the hype that you are STILL playing the same MMO from years past, just with a new skin.

It seems to me that so far Arenanet and Funcom are the only 2 companies that I know of that ‘grew a pair’ and are trying to approach things differently. However, a lot of the mechanics are still being used from previous MMO’s.

Its going to take a company that’s willing to do the homework and research to totally change the way we progress entirely in MMO’s, from A – Z. Only then can you call it a ‘True Next Generation of MMO Gaming’.

Until then, its going to be small baby steps like Funcom and Arenanet are doing, while the rest will continue the rehash of old mechanics disguised as ‘new’.

In short? From the ‘holy trinity’ to the quests/crafting/skills/leveling/gear, needs to all go, and start anew. Only then will this genre be evolving…

Nayru.4537:

eisberg.2379:

Nayru.4537:

Did anyone else forsee the white knight brigade on this thread?

Anyway, OP, the game not having tanks, healers, dps is a big factor in why it’s only sold 2m copies. (probably more than half of those quit)

So if they want to see their game fail, let them. Why let it bother you?

2 Million copies in the first couple of weeks since launch. We do not have any numbers for after that.

Also, no Trinity is one of the reasons why I bought the game.

Because it hasn’t gone past 2m sales. Also, no trinity is why millions of people didn’t buy this game.

Got any proof of that? You are the one stating a fact, you better have proof to back it up.

Gehenna.3625:

Already made them in various threads. But think about a complete rework of the trait system as well as the UI for it. Clarity in tooltips so you can see the numbers change when you change traits and atttributes. I mean, why does a tooltip not tell me I get a 10% of something and when someone else sees the buff on my toon it tells them I got 10% of that something. A skill bar with more freedom to select skills rather than being linked to weapon sets and being forced to take one heal and an elite that is worse than your normal skills. Actual need for strategy. Tougher dragon fights, making it possible to fail those events and not get the rewards.

There really are 3 basic issues here:

Lack of transparency in the UI, making any existing depth virtually invisible.
Lack of strategy in group activities.
Lack of freedom and flexibility in the skill bar.

So your entire point can be boiled down to “The gameplay’s depth isn’t spoon-fed to me, therefore it doesn’t exist.”

You can talk about how there isn’t “choice” in this game until you’re blue in the face; but you’re still demonstrably wrong.

“But they’re small choices, therefore they don’t matter.”

Just because you don’t understand how trait/weapon/gear synergy affects your gameplay doesn’t mean that it’s insignificant. I play a warrior, a class everyone usually pegs as a one-trick pony. Yet I’ve found extremely different play-styles that are effective at different tasks at different ranges.

These are large choices, not superficial. I can choose to banner heal while stacking aoe might and controlling a pack of mobs. I can choose to tunnel vision the ranged enemy with a greatsword to keep him from harassing my back line . I can choose to grab a mace and shield / hammer and remove entire stacks of defiant by myself, leaving the enemy open to any interrupts on demand. I can choose to spike heal while removing conditions and granting boons.

Each of those builds play extremely differently, to the point where getting used to one makes you worse in another simply because the skill timings and positioning during combat are completely different, and your muscle memory changes.

Nayru.4537:

Because it hasn’t gone past 2m sales. Also, no trinity is why millions of people didn’t buy this game.

What kind of reasoning is this, man?

He says glass half-full, you say glass half-empty. Both are correct, but why do we need to be concerned about the people who did NOT buy this game for one reason or another?

Will it benefit the people who have bought (and are playing) the game for what it was advertised and what it is if the game was changed to accommodate those who didn’t buy the game?

Vasham.2408:

It’s a well known fact that GW2’s PVE is horrible.

Lol, well known and fact.

When you bought the game it clearly stated no trinity, it is the only thing clearly unique in the game. Dungeons have clearly had most of the upgrades with the patches and now you want them to redesign the game to make it easier for you to run a dungeon. When will this playstyle ever be happy with what they get. If you arent happy with the way the game is well you do have a choice, there are plenty of games out there with the holy trinity.

eisberg.2379:

Nayru.4537:

eisberg.2379:

Nayru.4537:

Did anyone else forsee the white knight brigade on this thread?

Anyway, OP, the game not having tanks, healers, dps is a big factor in why it’s only sold 2m copies. (probably more than half of those quit)

So if they want to see their game fail, let them. Why let it bother you?

2 Million copies in the first couple of weeks since launch. We do not have any numbers for after that.

Also, no Trinity is one of the reasons why I bought the game.

Because it hasn’t gone past 2m sales. Also, no trinity is why millions of people didn’t buy this game.

Got any proof of that? You are the one stating a fact, you better have proof to back it up.

Oh, they’ve sold a few more, sure.

But, since they haven’t boasted about anything further, it’s anemic at best. And notice they do not state anything about active players because that number has (and is) dropping like a rock.

It’s becoming more and more clear to me they intend this to be an “on sale” game, where players come back for monthly updates where they will pitch them on cash shop sales. Their revenue will be spikey per month, because they can not count on box sales.

Notice we haven’t heard a peep out of Mike O’Brien since all of the boasting interviews about how GW2 will be #1 and beat World of Warcraft?

Zeldain.5710:

Notice we haven’t heard a peep out of Mike O’Brien since all of the boasting interviews about how GW2 will be #1 and beat World of Warcraft?

GW2 beat WoW on sales? Oh come on, its never gonna happen. GW2 market is a niche.

Justin Bieber sells much more albums than Erykah Badu. You think one of them is better than the other?

projectcedric.6951:

Zeldain.5710:

Notice we haven’t heard a peep out of Mike O’Brien since all of the boasting interviews about how GW2 will be #1 and beat World of Warcraft?

GW2 beat WoW on sales? Oh come on, its never gonna happen. GW2 market is a niche.

Justin Bieber sells much more albums than Erykah Badu. You think one of them is better than the other?

Hey, Mike O’Brien said it, not me.

Sylv.5324:

Vasham.2408:

It’s a well known fact that GW2’s PVE is horrible.

I like most of the PvE, so this is news to me.

Horrible maybe to all the people unwilling or unable to grasp or understand just how much better it is to not have the trinity !

Some people still need some serious deprogramming I see !

The trinity may seem like a diverse system to some but it is a stale one trick pony disguised as a dynamic system !

I hate the trinity always have, never understood why you’d want your toon locked into one role only and that is all you can do properly try anything else and you will die horribly, how is that any better ? no it simply isn’t !

I love dungeons in this game you can tackle them in so many different ways depending on which classes you take with you the strategies change quite a lot

Not just oh you get in his face and soak all the damage so we can stand back here and kill it w/o ever being in danger, and healer keep the tank alive so don’t wipe and if the boss occasionally sneezes in our way just throw some heals on us ! that system sucks big time ! no idea how in the world it became the genre standard tbh :S

so to answer the OP

NO GW2 does NOT need this POS system in it !
go to your nearest hospital and demand a full brainwave deprogramming service to be performed on you, so you can finally understand why this is so much better

Zeldain.5710:

Completely agree with the OP. the abandonment of the trinity is a huge problem for GW2.

However, the entire game and combat would have to be redesigned and quite frankly, it’s not worth wasting time on this game… it’s too far gone. Move on to another game.

4 months is ‘too far gone’?

Runescape just redone their combat system after having the same system since 2001.

Kinda puts things into perspective, no?

Besides, nothing wrong with the combat system as that encounters need encounters that force teamwork and communication.

With encounter mechanics as such, you don’t need the Trinity to have teamwork.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Zeldain.5710:

Completely agree with the OP. the abandonment of the trinity is a huge problem for GW2.

However, the entire game and combat would have to be redesigned and quite frankly, it’s not worth wasting time on this game… it’s too far gone. Move on to another game.

4 months is ‘too far gone’?

Runescape just redone their combat system after having the same system since 2001.

Kinda puts things into perspective, no?

Besides, nothing wrong with the combat system as that encounters need encounters that force teamwork and communication.

With encounter mechanics as such, you don’t need the Trinity to have teamwork.

I haven’t seen a single example of teamwork, and it’s specifically because combat is a free-for-all DPS zerg.

Is it just me or did the OP at some point shift from bringing the Trinity back to wanting to see numbers to determine who was best or not pulling their weight?

The problem with all those numbers is they don’t mean much in the complete context of the game unless you have simplistic roles like DPS and healer, and those roles essentially stand in one place and do nothing else.

The minute you’re responsible for your own defense, damage, movement and healing those numbers are impossible to calculate in a way that gives them real meaning.

The skills (chosen by weapon) and traits selected allow you to make your character play the way you want it to within that class. Every choice matters, if you use it to accentuate your play style. If your play style is to sit and do one thing, well sorry, but you’re probably out of luck, unless you’re hiding at the back not contributing much.

I can’t make my Engineer play like my Warrior when both of them use rifles. My Ranger plays nothing like my Warrior despite both of them using great swords. And, when both use great swords and long bows? Still different. My Mesmer with a great sword? Different from the others. Even my Thief with a short bow and Ranger with a short bow – different. There is plenty of differentiation between classes, just in what weapon you choose. And then you get to select which of the trait lines you focus on (which gives you up to 12 selectable traits per line you can change to suit your whim). You get a bunch of skills, and you can get every one available to your class if you want since you can always get more skill points.

If you want a role, pick a class, that defines your role. But there is no one best way to be that role, no best build for it, and no magic number you can point to that tells you who is best at it.

If you want to be support, choose to be what is needed most at the time, don’t demand that nobody have a choice but to need you.

If you want to be appreciated, play well in all aspects of the game or play well at what you like and/or do best or play well at some aspect that is needed in a specific situation. Someone will appreciate it.

If you’re playing well and aren’t feeling appreciated, maybe you need a friendlier server. Some servers seem to be full of people who aren’t afraid give you a pat on the back regardless of what class you’re playing for doing something well. Some seem full of people that want numbers and a specific class and build before they’ll group or party with you.

The amount of ignorance in this thread is just beyond imagination… I will post what I want to say in simple adnotations because judging by other posts anything more complicated would be inapropriate…

First of all why does everyone here think that if a game is trinity based it is automatically a copy of WoW and vice versa if a game has no trinity it isn’t WoW. How stupid that statement is. WoW has many flaws, and many good things and you can’t just say that wow=trinity and don’t care about the rest.

Secondly, for now both pve and pvp are terrible. Zergfest. That’s what it is. All I do is push random buttons when they are off cooldown, I dont have to think if I should save them for later, I dont think at all I just push buttons and the sad thing is that it works both in pve and in pvp.

On a side note a “why you are still playing than” question is not an argument. I am playing more or less frequently because the game is enjoyable for me wnich doesn’t mean it is perfect. Same goes for WoW – I have been playing for years, and it was only fun cause of friends, the game was and still is crap, but there was nothing to choose from. It was crap, but the best what I had, now there is gw2 with it’s hipster community that desperately sticks to looking for new solutions for every problem because they want to call themselfes “modern MMO players”.

Whether you like it or not. This game NEEDS serious fixes. Adding trinity is the easiest solution not the best tho, but leaving it as it is is worst possible thing to do. Bosses are zerg. PVP is zerg. There is zero tactic. I mean seriously everything was dumbed to “move outside the red lines”, and “ress other players”. The downstate system imo is completly bad but thats not the topic so I am not going to write another lithany about how annoying it is in pvp and what impact it has on pve gameplay and ppl mindset overall. The reason that trinity is not that bad is because it by its nature involves teamplay that this game lacks a lot atm. And please, to anyone that thinks trinity takes no skill and is gear based. Stop talking. You just embarass yourself. That’s just… laughable, trinity takes a lot of skill and thats just understanding other’s role in the party, than we can add difficulty through encounters that force people to change their playstyle accordingly. Don’t tell me it forces any1 to any playstyle you got a choice of DPS, healer, tank blah blah blah everyone is playing what he likes in the end and with the current system you have to change ur skill setup and maybe even traits each time you go to FOTM because others expect you to use skill X because thats the easiest if not the only way to beat encounter (abusing downstate any1?).

I don’t remember who it was who said that gamers have a habit of buying a game that is stated to be one way, in the hopes that it will change. When this change doesn’t happen, they get upset and rage that this is why the game fails, etc etc.

People bought this game knowing there would be no trinity. That’s been said right from the start.

Why are people raging now? Claiming that’s why it fails etc, etc— you knew what kind of game this was! Why do you feel the need to sneer at five years worth of dev time, up-front statements during all that time, beta testimonials, etc, that this was not a trinity game?

Why are you disappointed that it’s not a trinity game? You knew what you were buying!

Buy the game as it is, so you won’t be upset when the devs don’t about face on one of the core principles of the entire game’s design.

Zeldain.5710:

I haven’t seen a single example of teamwork, and it’s specifically because combat is a free-for-all DPS zerg.

I have, in just my last session of play.