Guild Wars 2

Nayru.4537:

Except GW1 got abandoned by devs months ago. No more updates and exodus of players.

Hmm..wonder why.

After all, you say its a superior game in every way.

Samhayn.2385:

The trinity is a bad mechanic in any game even if the game was designed for it.

You can’t just be tank,healer, or dps. You have to be the best/cookie cutter roll or you have to have some kind of gimmick that warrants you a spot in pve raids. This then starts the homginazation of class as all rolls need to be as good as each other and no one can have something that other classes don’t bring because it keeps people from bring certain classes.

Just thinking about it makes me disgusted and reminds me why I’m here and not playing wow/rift/swtor or some other EQ clone.

110% true, I could not agree more

projectcedric.6951:

Nayru.4537:

Except GW1 got abandoned by devs months ago. No more updates and exodus of players.

Hmm.. wonder why.

Hmm.. wonder why.After all, you say its a superior game in every way.

To make a less successful sequel and try to kill wow? lol

Vasham.2408:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Honestly, it is still in the game. I can specc my Mesmer to facetank most mobs. The trinity is gone in terms of class roles. It is not gone in terms of gameplay.
I can specc my Mesmer to be a healer. Or a tank. Or a supporter. Or a damage dealer.
If you want to play as a trinity, get some players, coordinate setups and builds and you will be fine.

I’ve noticed this too. Guardians and Warriors seem to attract a lot of aggro, at least when I run Explorables and Fractals. It’s egregious enough that one starts to think why they bothered to remove only a third of the trinity (healing) and taunt skills. It was probably a last minute design choice, but such things seem to be the defacto approach to development at Arenanet.

I personally find myself torn regarding the Trinity. As a defensive Guardian, I can openly state that I notice elements of being a “Tank”. Nearly without fail, if I switch to my mace/shield setup I end up with mob aggro while I wear it. Ran a fractals group last night and we were making jokes the entire time about how I was tanking everything, even though there aren’t supposed to be tanks.

Personally, because of the mob mechanics that I have noticed, I find myself wishing they had added a taunt mechanic to the game, at least for the Guardian (Warrior possibly as well). If I am already able to jump in a fight with mace/shield and have the mobs attention for the majority of a fight, I feel that there should be a way for me to regain attention when the boss randomly decided to go smack the squishier classes instead.

“it’s a known fact PvE is horrible”

Nope, it’s your opinion millions of players don’t share.
Facts and opinions are very different things, and sure as hell dumbing down this game with autopilot easymode trinity gimmick wouldn’t do any good.

Been playing MMOs for 15 years and no trinity game requires a quarter of skill that GW2 does – especially those where tank and healer gimmick the whole fight.

Nayru.4537:

projectcedric.6951:

Nayru.4537:

Except GW1 got abandoned by devs months ago. No more updates and exodus of players.

Hmm.. wonder why.

Hmm.. wonder why.After all, you say its a superior game in every way.

To make a less successful sequel and try to kill wow? lol

Lol indeed. Its so amusingly laughable…

..how anybody would play a game with that kind of mindset.

If they did bring the Unholy 3 into this game then it’s diffidently DOOMED.

Vasham.2408:

Coldtart.4785:

The trinity in other mmos takes absolutely zero skill. So long as you know what you have to do and when and your gear is up to par, you cannot fail. You may as well play DDR on your keyboard.

I find this statement funny. Anyone who makes this remark clearly has zero experience in true endgame content in other MMOs. Have you ever killed Algalon the Observer? Maybe Akylios? How about any boss from Final Fantasy 11? I would wager any player who says the trinity takes zero skill probably played WoW to level thirty and quit.

The most basic of endgame encounters in any other MMO you can mention put GW2 to shame in terms of challenge and skill requirement. This isn’t an opinion, it’s a fact.

I played most the bosses in FFXI, none of them really involved complex mechanics, FFXI simply hadthe room of error scaled higher than GW2 does right now. IE you couldnt screw up that much/needed gear.

But when you had the proper stuff and strats, stuff was pretty easy.

stun chains, melee burns, tank and spank, once you learned the encounter had the people it was actually pretty much going to go the same way every time, and required very little for most of the party, i mean essentially you if you could make simple bots you could beat any boss in the game easily. I know people who basically dual and triboxed bosses with two peoples, and while that was difficult, it was about the actual triboxing.
heal when X esuna when X Provoke every X flash every X wait 1 Sc blah blah , the whole macro game was basically a mini robot, with the windower you could basically play a whole team.

gw biggest problem is the long hp fights with no real change for most of that hp.

Vasham.2408:

It’s a well known fact that GW2’s PVE is horrible. Trash mobs have ridiculous health pools, boss strategies consist of nothing more than “kite and dodge” with singular gimmicks if you’re lucky. Event bosses, meant to replace raiding, are mindless zergfests with no strategy involved (Risen High Priests) or giant monsters that sit in one place and roar at you helplessly while you kill them with zero resistance or challenge (the dragon encounters, also Zhaitan). It doesn’t help that the loot from all of this is either non existent or just plain sucks.

There’s a simple reason why this is true and will remain an unbreakable constant for GW2’s lifespan as a game. It’s the much touted “no holy trinity” gameplay. Now I know how the responses to this will go:

But Vasham, the trinity just put all the responsibility on the healer and no one else! DPS could sleepwalk through encounters and tanks just had to not die!

False. To say the trinity was that simplistic shows one’s ignorance of PVE mechanics and overall lack of experience in true endgame content. Tanks, DPS, and Healers all had specific sub-duties in encounters, mechanics to watch for, and skills to master beyond their base role in the raid. I would dare say the trinity required a higher skill ceiling than any role a class can play in GW2.

But the trinity forces people into playstyles they don’t like and extends the time it takes to form a group!

False. While a time existed in previous MMOs where to play a certain class meant you played a certain role in the trinity that time has long passed. MMOs with good class balance (read: anything not by Arenanet) have either been released or changed their classes so the one you play isn’t pigeonholed into a specific role. I never met a tank or healer in WoW, Rift, or other games that played those roles exclusively yet didn’t enjoy it. The lack of those roles have turned many players away from GW2, and I can’t blame them.

But the trinity is an old and tired system! This game’s system is new!

New doesn’t mean good, if anything it’s proven the opposite. The lack of the trinity as a solid foundation for encounter design is why GW2 has had such trouble with it’s PVE content. Arenanet made the mistake of viewing the trinity in such shallow terms during development that they forgot why it’s stood the test of time. Without the trinity to provide that basic framework encounters boil down to a murky cloud of damage dealing and kiting. There’s nothing to support more advanced mechanics than the most basic of gimmicks as GW2’s dungeons and events have proved, and the new Fractals dungeon has reinforced that proof.

Deny it all you want, but PVE players are the backbone of a healthy MMO. With GW2’s sPVP in a rapid decline and the pipe dream of esports becoming more unreachable every day Arenanet will need to appease the PVE playerbase to stay afloat. With such poor encounter design limited by a wide eyed dream of a world with no trinity it’s an avenue they are not prepared to deliver on unless drastic change is made to class balance and the trinity is reinstated.

That, or we can look forward to spamming 2 again to kill the next Elder Dragon.

At last, someone with brains that isn’t blinded by fanboism.

And to those shouting about how much they like having no roles, you really do want to play BF3 or Mario… You know, other arcade games. Leave the real MMOs to the big boys that like challenges eh?

You can’t have a role*, when something has zero roles or only one role… DPS… THAT! Is a arcade game with multiplayer.

• or social role is a set of connected behaviours, rights and obligations as conceptualised by actors in a social situation. It is an expected or free or continuously changing behaviour and may have a given individual social status or social position. It is vital to both functionalist and interactionist understandings of society. Social role posits the following about social behaviour:
  1/ The interaction among heterogeneous specialised positions, we call roles.))

I posted this elsewhere, but my original vision of the ‘Holy Trinity’ was that people would be using stances to change which archtype they were on the fly. When I was told that GW2 was going to change the model, that they were removing the holy trinity, they ONLY said that anyone else can fullfill anyone else’s role. IN FACT, in their video, they said…“If that necromancer wants to get in there and tank a little bit, then jump back and go DPS…that’s what our system allows!”

Me and the DEV’s had WILDLY varying opinions on what ‘getting in there’ means.

Now, back to my idea, I know its unpopular, but just imagine that you take a group consisting of an Ele, a warrior, a engi, a thief and a mesmer with you. In essence, this group (from a holy trinity stand point) seems doomed to fail, whereas, you never know, if MIGHT work, depending on how all works out.

Imagine that the Ele goes in first to tank, and builds a suit of rock armor that protects him from all damage (while he can’t do damage in return) while using other skills that debolster or debuffs the boss in some way. Then, just before his armor is completely stripped away, he switches stances, the mesmer takes over and the ele moves into a support role, playing off the conditions he’s applied.

The Mesmer (using the class machanics) summons 3 clones that distract the mobs attention, and while the boss beats on them, the mesmer is doing his own work on the boss, and once CD’s are down, the thief moves in for the position…so on an so forth, coordinating roles and switches (‘gasp’ like teamwork) in order to successfully overcome the encounter/dungeon.

Now, this seems incredibly tedious work to do in open world, but again, the trash mobs are fairly easy, you can move into a more DPS oriented role to get by, and if you need to heal, or tank(for survivability): “Hey! You got roles for that!”

I view it as more of a win/win solution to roles vs no roles, of Holy Trinity or none, seeing as you CAN play however you want, still, and overall it will promote more teamwork, more challenge to all (devs too to not only redesign, but balance between PvE and PvP and dungeons) and still gives the trinity goers a way to get their trinity without having to sacrifice the vision of the game.

And truly, anyone WOULD be able to full fill anyone else’s roles, seeing as, everyone would be able to fill that role.

Nayru.4537:

P.S. GW1 is superior in every aspect.

Even in open world grouping DE’s?

Snowy.9580:

And to those shouting about how much they like having no roles, you really do want to play BF3 or Mario…

..or GW2?

It’s basically what is said there. On the box. Did I miss something?

Lucavern.6829:

I personally find myself torn regarding the Trinity.

Another option (not saying for this game) is for all classes be able to be anything at a click of a setting. A Tank Stance, Heal Stance, DPS Stance, Support Stance, Jack of All Trades Stance. That way any 5 people are still a viable group, sure you have to negotiate who’s taking what role. But I could see that a viable alternative to how the whole mechanic plays out. This would keep trinity and make everyone viable if they are willing.

Horrorscope.7632:

Nayru.4537:

P.S. GW1 is superior in every aspect.

Even in open world grouping DE’s?

Nah. Rift is best at that.

Przemek.6835:

Osculim.2983:

No thank you no trinity otherwise i would play other mmos but im not.

couple of reasons :

1st you have healers and tanks thinking they are more important than everyone else in a group which in turns breeds a horrible community.

2nd There is no way in wow that a dps player get a quick group you always wait much longer than a tank or healer.

Also whats the point of standing still in a fight thats the most boring thing in other mmos for me doesnt matter what you do you always gets hit that is just not realistic its like standing still in front of a person with a gun and just wait for him to shoot you and hoping for the best.

It is not as if you didnt know that there is not gonna be a trinity either if that was your thing why switch to another mmo. If the wow type machanics is your thing then play wow that is the exact same reason i moved to guildwars the trinity is not my thing so i left wow and im happy.

Speaking about the realism… how realistic downstate is? You lay down and raise your hand so you can magically get back to fight endless times?

I won’t comment on finding party because I haven’t tried much yet. Looking at other posts tho it seems that finding one is easier with certain classes/specs. For me it doesn’t matter if I have to look longer because bleeds dont stack past 25 or because they already have 3 dpsers.

Looking at your post you are another one that thinks trinitiy=wow and thats the game on wnich you are basing your opinion. Well than I did every raid and dungeon in that crappy game and I hardly ever stood still during encounter, and I only stood still because I couldnt cast while moving and every second of not casting counts as dps loss.

On a side, in WoW after every encounter I knew I could have played better. I messed spell priority a bit, or I popped my cds a while too fast. I don’t have that feeling in gw2 there is no self improvement.

have you ever done any group content? or are you basing this soley off the open world events? If you did dungeons or fractals higher than 10, and didnt feel any teamwork, or see the importance of your build, playstyle and how well you execute, you were probably being carried by a team, because even ascalon catacombs can be pretty harsh without people who know what they are doing and how to effectively deal with situations, beyond a dps race.

Nayru.4537:

Horrorscope.7632:

Nayru.4537:

P.S. GW1 is superior in every aspect.

Even in open world grouping DE’s?

Nah. Rift is best at that.

How in the Hades did Rift enter the conversation? And I didn’t find theirs better at all, however there has been some gloating of DE improvements from their expansion. Perhaps today it is. If there is one thing taken from GW2, is that I hope it makes general open world gaming better for future mmo offerings. It by far has the best open world game I’ve played, I’m usually a dungeon runner (aka instance runner) in mmo’s like Gw1, but in this game I find the dungeons not needed and a possible thorn now.

projectcedric.6951:

Snowy.9580:

And to those shouting about how much they like having no roles, you really do want to play BF3 or Mario…

..or GW2?

It’s basically what is said there. On the box. Did I miss something?

Yeah, you left out the “RPG” part that is meant to be in it too.

Horrorscope.7632:

Lucavern.6829:

I personally find myself torn regarding the Trinity.

Another option (not saying for this game) is for all classes be able to be anything at a click of a setting. A Tank Stance, Heal Stance, DPS Stance, Support Stance, Jack of All Trades Stance. That way any 5 people are still a viable group, sure you have to negotiate who’s taking what role. But I could see that a viable alternative to how the whole mechanic plays out. This would keep trinity and make everyone viable if they are willing.

I really dislike the concept that has shown in this thread that we need a mechanic to delegate roles, and if there is no mechanic, the roles don’t exist.

There’s already mechanics to support teamplay and combat “roles” in this game, and it has a lot more to do with how a player plays than how a class “tanks” or “heals.” It’s up to the player to decide which role suits the situation best, not the game’s job to tell the player what role to be at any given moment. That’s where this disconnect is. Players who are used to the rigid tank/healer/dps are used to having the class tell them what to do. GW2 sets that task at the player’s feet, no matter which class they’re playing.

The effect of this is that players who adapt playstyles and are flexible in their gameplay enjoy GW2 mechanics and see them for what the are: a toolkit.

Players who like to have a single assigned job feel left out and overwhelmed by the options, and so pick options that suit the one role they want to play…while forsaking every other situational ability. These players get frustrated because the design is against them.

Snowy.9580:

projectcedric.6951:

Snowy.9580:

And to those shouting about how much they like having no roles, you really do want to play BF3 or Mario…

..or GW2?

It’s basically what is said there. On the box. Did I miss something?

Yeah, you left out the “RPG” part that is meant to be in it too.

Hey now, you’re insulting my int, man.

I know what the “role” in RPG stands for. And it is NOT the same “role” in combat roles.

Don’t go down this road, man. Just don’t.

It’s never a good idea to start a post by claiming an opinion as a fact.

I will say no more for fear of getting dragged in to this mess.

Snowy.9580:

projectcedric.6951:

Snowy.9580:

And to those shouting about how much they like having no roles, you really do want to play BF3 or Mario…

..or GW2?

It’s basically what is said there. On the box. Did I miss something?

Yeah, you left out the “RPG” part that is meant to be in it too.

where did this idea that rpg meant you needed a tank a healer and dps. I played many rpgs without this paradigm. Every play Secret of Mana? FF3-9 (they had healing, but you didnt require dedicated healers, and you had virtually no tanks) The concept of RPG is because you play a role. Warrior is a role, mesmer is a role, theif is role.

no one is discussing rpg here, they basically a discussing their prefered game mechanics, but if you really want trinity, probably shouldnt buy a game that was heavily promoted as not being that type of game.

Mackdose.6504:

Horrorscope.7632:

Lucavern.6829:

I personally find myself torn regarding the Trinity.

Another option (not saying for this game) is for all classes be able to be anything at a click of a setting. A Tank Stance, Heal Stance, DPS Stance, Support Stance, Jack of All Trades Stance. That way any 5 people are still a viable group, sure you have to negotiate who’s taking what role. But I could see that a viable alternative to how the whole mechanic plays out. This would keep trinity and make everyone viable if they are willing.

I really dislike the concept that has shown in this thread that we need a mechanic to delegate roles, and if there is no mechanic, the roles don’t exist.

There’s already mechanics to support teamplay and combat “roles” in this game, and it has a lot more to do with how a player plays than how a class “tanks” or “heals.” It’s up to the player to decide which role suits the situation best, not the game’s job to tell the player what role to be at any given moment. That’s where this disconnect is. Players who are used to the rigid tank/healer/dps are used to having the class tell them what to do. GW2 sets that task at the player’s feet, no matter which class they’re playing.

The effect of this is that players who adapt playstyles and are flexible in their gameplay enjoy GW2 mechanics and see them for what the are: a toolkit.

Players who like to have a single assigned job feel left out and overwhelmed by the options, and so pick options that suit the one role they want to play…while forsaking every other situational ability. These players get frustrated because the design is against them.

and here, you are basically right. Different people tend to play differently and their role is basically what they like to do, and do well, i have partied with people who go out their way to give buffs, get people up, and supply key conditions/boons/heals. Others that go balls to the wall and try to mrder everything asap, Myself on mesmer, who ends up trying to provide dps, while countering specific skills and give breathing room.

People essentially start to mold the class into how they want to go at playing the game. The roles and their benefits exist, its basically the players who decide how to make the best use of them.

lothefallen.7081:

What this post is about is the issues presented when removing trinity mechanics…

You have class divisions by functionality, flavor, strength…but they are not balanced by a system that is the backbone of many traditional, modern MMOs.

The problem here is a lack of roles. They designed off of concepts that worked on paper, but not in action with social interaction taken into account.

GW2 is trying to please too many types of people in an attempt to maximize revenue, but this hurts the direction of the development. They retain some mechanics and systems of trinity based design, but they deviate too far from the fundamentals which creates many problematic instances.

Things that the lack of roles and trinity effects negatively in this game…

- The ability of the developers to design with balanced, stable, and consistently scaled combat difficulty ( and engagement by association) to encounters.

- Group integrity, team play depth, practical combat depth.

- Build tangibility, individual effectiveness, role specialization.

Things that, when compounded with the aforementioned, create fundamental design issues…

- Content delivery in the form of dynamic events and hearts is too shallow to encourage meaningful player engagement.
– Can leave players feeling alienated or under-engaged, especially in a MMOG.
– With FoTM and Legendary grind, most zones are empty making progress grindy.
– The reliance on rigid content structure leaves little room for flexibility. To quote another user from this board,

" Think about it. Arenanet can’t give you, the player, a personal quest to assemble your Legendary. They can’t put in a drop from say, Lupicus, that then begins a quest that sends you to the depths of the Citadel of Flame to talk to a Flame Legion turncoat who will help you forge the mighty dagger Incinerator. "

-Galen.9042, “Legendaries: Why Grinding Is The Only Option” 2012

- Grouping and Guilds are largely redundant outside of dungeon running or unless you need an extra chat room.
– Single-player feel.

- Builds are not solid or tangible in most cases, making the meta hard to define or purposefully deviate from for most players. Furthermore, there is absolutely no way to efficiently communicate them to other players in the game.

- Combat, encounters, and player identity feels like a backdrop to a casual-focused cash shop operation, whereas it should be the centerpiece.

- The reliance on lazy content design through the use of the mystic forge and grind as a game-play principle.

Put this all together and you’ve got the core problems for GW2 as an MMO in a nut shell. You can agree or disagree, but this has been my observation through discussion with hundreds of players.

I wrote this in a previous thread to outline, for those (most of the posters in this thread) who may not fully understand why there are so many threads that propose this as a solution to the current problems.

I’d also like to add that, while GW2 has roles, they can be very intangible and ineffectual in the broad scheme of team play. This means that speccing a certain way and communicating strategies (which the game doesn’t even support, i.e you can’t link trait builds or skill bars, but does it even matter due to how casual the game has been designed?) based on the combat or skills system is basically unnecessary because of how the game is designed. It’s also not because we need a system to delegate roles, but that we need the roles to be more defined and structured. There are so many problems in engagement created by the combat system they chose and how shallow it is. Do you really have fun wailing on a boss for 15-20 minutes just to get a blue drop? Do you really have fun fighting a boss in an MMO that has mechanics that belong in a Nintendo game for kids?

phys.7689:

Snowy.9580:

projectcedric.6951:

Snowy.9580:

And to those shouting about how much they like having no roles, you really do want to play BF3 or Mario…

..or GW2?

It’s basically what is said there. On the box. Did I miss something?

Yeah, you left out the “RPG” part that is meant to be in it too.

where did this idea that rpg meant you needed a tank a healer and dps. I played many rpgs without this paradigm. Every play Secret of Mana? FF3-9 (they had healing, but you didnt require dedicated healers, and you had virtually no tanks) The concept of RPG is because you play a role. Warrior is a role, mesmer is a role, theif is role.

no one is discussing rpg here, they basically a discussing their prefered game mechanics, but if you really want trinity, probably shouldnt buy a game that was heavily promoted as not being that type of game.

Sorry I didn’t play FF games, they are a bit to “consoley” for me.

As for the Warrior, Ele, Necro etc.. Those are classes, then the said classes “fill” a role (or a job or task if you like). Sadly, that task has been removed.

Now, I did know what I was getting myself into, BUT, I didn’t think it would be as bad as it was. Rolling around “evading” things is just a pure arcade game to me.
It would be like watching a Ali boxing match, he evades while the other poor sod hammers away! And while it worked, it was as boring as kitten to watch (bet it wasn’t much fun playing it either! hehe). I’d love to see LotRs or Star Wars big battle scene, as 1,000s of actors charge, head long at one another, only to start rolling around the floor… Epic!.

100% agree with the OP. White knights gonna hate, haters gonna hate, simple as that.

Trinity should have remained ingame but been made available to each profession in a different manner. Also don’t give me that crap about how it gets rid of people only taking certain roles to dungeons, quite a few people still do that by only looking for the most overpowered class/build at the current time. So technically the main trinity problem still exist only…without the trinity, go figure.

NO! I am really enjoing the “non-trinity” play. Trinity came into play way back in the old Everquest days some 15+ years ago. It is an excuse for poor game design. Trinity gameplay is a cop-out. Just because you are used to it or the other “ancient games” use it, doesnt mean people like it.

Besides all that, most didnt find pure healing or pure tanking fun. 45minute queue anyone?

Keep up the fresh and good work Anet!
/cheers

Edit: PS: Any game that even thinks about doing tab target, single target, no passive dodging, blocking, etc….goes back into the 1999 gameplay box. Boo.

Static teambuild is static.

Mackdose.6504:

Horrorscope.7632:

Lucavern.6829:

I personally find myself torn regarding the Trinity.

Another option (not saying for this game) is for all classes be able to be anything at a click of a setting. A Tank Stance, Heal Stance, DPS Stance, Support Stance, Jack of All Trades Stance. That way any 5 people are still a viable group, sure you have to negotiate who’s taking what role. But I could see that a viable alternative to how the whole mechanic plays out. This would keep trinity and make everyone viable if they are willing.

I really dislike the concept that has shown in this thread that we need a mechanic to delegate roles, and if there is no mechanic, the roles don’t exist.

There’s already mechanics to support teamplay and combat “roles” in this game, and it has a lot more to do with how a player plays than how a class “tanks” or “heals.” It’s up to the player to decide which role suits the situation best, not the game’s job to tell the player what role to be at any given moment. That’s where this disconnect is. Players who are used to the rigid tank/healer/dps are used to having the class tell them what to do. GW2 sets that task at the player’s feet, no matter which class they’re playing.

The effect of this is that players who adapt playstyles and are flexible in their gameplay enjoy GW2 mechanics and see them for what the are: a toolkit.

Players who like to have a single assigned job feel left out and overwhelmed by the options, and so pick options that suit the one role they want to play…while forsaking every other situational ability. These players get frustrated because the design is against them.

You’re not quite right, my friend. The way they design encounters often does not accent the combat system at all. Take the CoF path 2 end boss encounter for example. Without trinity setup in most cases, you are reduced to kiting and killing adds in tandem to gain access to wailing on an item till the health pool drains or doing other gimmicky things rather than really using the combat system and team play to any tangible extent.This is not engaging, team-build, team-skill based combat that accents a combat system. The combat system in most cases is a complete backdrop to everything else. Why? Because the game wants to cater to the casual players that don’t care too much for depth. While there may be slight roles, nothing is solidly defined. Healing isn’t a role, it’s something you spit out while spamming your skills in a zerg in this game. I can spec into healing as a Guardian, but it won’t give me much of a benefit because of how player attributes and systems are designed in this game. Bottom line, the game is not engaging most people. You have no need to group with people outside of semantic purposes for dungeon runs. There is very little active strategy involved.

In no way, shape, or form is it about people needing ArenaNet to pidgeonhole them into a certain role, they already do that good enough with the utilities and the weapon skills. It’s about players needing more structure…a less rigid character attribute system. A class that has direct healing options. Truth be told, the systems design is very premature. For all the reasons stated above, this game could truly benefit from a more defined, tangible, and team/skill/choice related challenge to the combat that accents the combat system. The game needs roles. The encounters need to be designed and balanced around team setups, team dynamics, not solo-singleplayer game. The dungeons just don’t cut it.

All abilities are situational. Anyone who thinks they can have a clearly defined role in this game hasn’t played long enough. The lack of team challenge that accents the combat system, the lack of group integrity, the content delivery…this game has some fundamental issues. I’d like to see them add the monk back in and let players have some options to direct heal. In the current system, it’s unnecessary. It’s designed too shallowly. If you can’t see that, god help you.

This game needs a class that at least has the option to spec for reliable, sustained, and direct healing. The group integrity desires it. The social interaction (or lack there of) desires it. This game would do nothing but benefit from them bringing back the healer and designing encounters around a less shallow system.

Eggshen.2671:

Besides all that, most didnt find pure healing or pure tanking fun. 45minute queue anyone?

Keep up the fresh and good work Anet!
/cheers

Have you tried getting a story mode dungeon going? Nobody wants to do them as the rewards are “not worth it”, which ironically equals the wait time you describe. Slightly offtopic I know but just saying…wait times are still there only now we are waiting for something else instead of class roles.

Its important to diffirentiate the Roleplaying in RPG’s from the rpg mechanics. RPG is at its base roleplaying and has nothing to do with tanks, healers or dps neither does the mechanics need them (but can be designed to use the trinity) in order to be considered rpg mechanics. Most rpgs dont even have the trinity as a matter of fact although Dragon Age: Origins had it to some extent (not counting mmo’s).

Yes, you can have challenging complex fun fights with the trinity but lets face it, this game isnt build around the trinity and I hope it will never be so.

The game has already picked up WoW’s instance gear grinder design. I see no reason to do a job halfway- bring the Trinity along with it and lets finish off this transition.

lothefallen.7081:

I’d also like to add that, while GW2 has roles, they can be very intangible and ineffectual in the broad scheme of team play.

I’d like to know where you’re getting “ineffectual” from.

Blind, Cripple, and Chill are controlling team-oriented abilities, and are effective at saving the squishy teammate from certain death.

Regen, Vigor, Protection, and Aegis are supporting team-oriented abilities offering damage mitigation either directly or indirectly.

A team using these abilities to their full potential will succeed faster and more reliably than a team who doesn’t, and these are just a handful of the team-oriented boons and conditions.

lothefallen.7081:

It’s also not because we need a system to delegate roles, but that we need the roles to be more defined and structured. There are so many problems in engagement created by the combat system they chose and how shallow it is.

The roles aren’t designed to be structured, and it’s painfully obvious that you can’t get your head out of the “this is my job, and it’s the only one I have” mindset.

Classes have the ability to specialize in support or damage or control, but you’re never in any instance performing only one of these tasks in any given fight. Fights in this game are chaotic… until you have the players turn the fight into a controlled situation. They do this by using the tools they’ve specialized in to play to the strengths of the team while minimizing the weaknesses.

There’s more combat depth in the first 15 seconds of a trash pull in AC than I’ve found in any endgame boss in WoW because it’s up to the players to shape fights rather the fights to adhere to “Tank gets threat, Go DPS, healer keep that tank topped off.”

Mackdose.6504:

There’s more combat depth in the first 15 seconds of a trash pull in AC than I’ve found in any endgame boss in WoW because it’s up to the players to shape fights rather the fights to adhere to “Tank gets threat, Go DPS, healer keep that tank topped off.”

Even though I’m not in the pro-trinity camp (see my spam above), I have to object to this characterization. In Lotro, some of my fave moments were trash pulls requiring multiple tanks, multiple healers, multiple lock down classes, and a wise decision of DPS order, and good timing. GW2 doesn’t have anything to resemble this level of team coordination,yet. It may never. I don’t know that it needs to have it, but I know that I would enjoy it that much more if it did, at least on some content. (BTW, I believe it’s the content that’s the problem, not the mechanic.

To the OP:

The “holy trinity” does not need to be in this game. It never was, and never should be.

That is not the design philosophy of GW2, never was, and moving to that philosophy would be a betrayal to the gamer base that bought into the games design vision.

You knew from the start the game wasn’t built around the trinity and you bought it anyways. Don’t be upset that it’s not what you knew it wasn’t to begin with.

I like this game just the way it is. Good job Anet. Even though its still in its beginning stages and things are still coming out. I applaud you for the job you have done so far.

Mackdose.6504:

lothefallen.7081:

I’d also like to add that, while GW2 has roles, they can be very intangible and ineffectual in the broad scheme of team play.

I’d like to know where you’re getting “ineffectual” from.

Blind, Cripple, and Chill are controlling team-oriented abilities, and are effective at saving the squishy teammate from certain death.

Regen, Vigor, Protection, and Aegis are supporting team-oriented abilities offering damage mitigation either directly or indirectly.

A team using these abilities to their full potential will succeed faster and more reliably than a team who doesn’t, and these are just a handful of the team-oriented boons and conditions.

lothefallen.7081:

It’s also not because we need a system to delegate roles, but that we need the roles to be more defined and structured. There are so many problems in engagement created by the combat system they chose and how shallow it is.

The roles aren’t designed to be structured, and it’s painfully obvious that you can’t get your head out of the “this is my job, and it’s the only one I have” mindset.

Classes have the ability to specialize in support or damage or control, but you’re never in any instance performing only one of these tasks in any given fight. Fights in this game are chaotic… until you have the players turn the fight into a controlled situation. They do this by using the tools they’ve specialized in to play to the strengths of the team while minimizing the weaknesses.

There’s more combat depth in the first 15 seconds of a trash pull in AC than I’ve found in any endgame boss in WoW because it’s up to the players to shape fights rather the fights to adhere to “Tank gets threat, Go DPS, healer keep that tank topped off.”

I see no depth in spamming abilities for side-car buffs that are just a heaped on amalgamation of a mush-brain combat system. I’m saying that these buffs, these roles, these attributes…they aren’t well defined or extremely tangible in combat or in group play. Your team’s life doesn’t hinder on that regen, that vigor…why? I’ve got two dodges and a “heal me up” button and i think anyone who thinks there are well defined, gratifying roles to the combat in this game is severely delusional. There’s not enough risk / reward. The combat doesn’t revolve around the tightness and depth of the skill system, you just kite and dodge out of red circles. You sound like what i was preaching to doubters back before release. Too bad i opened up my eyes and actually experienced the game for the mess that it is. This game is not deep, engaging, or well designed. Truth is, it’s a solo game with multi-player options. Terrible loot system, terrible dungeon and encounter design, no group integrity, no meaning to roles or playing with other people outside of a numbers game.

JaironKalach.4938:

Mackdose.6504:

There’s more combat depth in the first 15 seconds of a trash pull in AC than I’ve found in any endgame boss in WoW because it’s up to the players to shape fights rather the fights to adhere to “Tank gets threat, Go DPS, healer keep that tank topped off.”

Even though I’m not in the pro-trinity camp (see my spam above), I have to object to this characterization. In Lotro, some of my fave moments were trash pulls requiring multiple tanks, multiple healers, multiple lock down classes, and a wise decision of DPS order, and good timing. GW2 doesn’t have anything to resemble this level of team coordination,yet. It may never. I don’t know that it needs to have it, but I know that I would enjoy it that much more if it did, at least on some content. (BTW, I believe it’s the content that’s the problem, not the mechanic.

I’m not saying the trinity is bad and that games that use it are terrible, I quite enjoyed my time in LoTRO and WoW,(didn’t enjoy my time in several other trinity-based games), I’m just saying that GW2 has depth in it’s combat system, it’s just up to the players to figure it out.

And I agree also that this is a content problem, not a mechanical one.

I have no problem with the trinity but I like that this one doesn’t have it just because it makes the gameplay different.

Better to have this variety than to try to just make it like countless other games. There’s no shortage of games with the trinity to play, but there’s a definite shortage of games without it.

There’s other ways to spice up the gameplay besides having dedicated healers.

As a player who’s has played several different MMO’s, I am glad there is no trinity. As my favourite class, warrior(tank), in GW1 I always had issues finding “groups” for doing stuff, or stood around for hours trying to find monks to fill the team.

GW2 does away with “relying on others to survive” and puts the responsibility on ourselves. No longer does the party wipe if a key member(monk) dies, instead the group can continue no matter who dies.

Putting the responsibility on ourselves for our own survival forces us to think outside the box and makes us play differently to how we would if we played one of the trinity. For instance my warrior in dungeons is often fighting at range with rifle, something unheard of with trinity setups, but I still do decent damage, and survive much better than trying to melee all the time.

The lack of the holy trinity(healer/dps/tank) in GW2 means we must change the playing style that we’ve grown lazy with by relying on the trinity in other games. GW2 is not “just” another MMO, GW2 redefines how we play MMOs and if we don’t change the lazy playing style that we have grown accustomed to, then we are left feeling like we don’t have a place in the game.

lothefallen.7081:

I see no depth in spamming abilities for side-car buffs that are just a heaped on amalgamation of a mush-brain combat system. I’m saying that these buffs, these roles, these attributes…they aren’t well defined or extremely tangible in combat or in group play. Your team’s life doesn’t hinder on that regen, that vigor…why? I’ve got two dodges and a “heal me up” button and i think anyone who thinks there are well defined, gratifying roles to the combat in this game is severely delusional. There’s not enough risk / reward. The combat doesn’t revolve around the tightness and depth of the skill system, you just kite and dodge out of red circles. You sound like what i was preaching to doubters back before release. Too bad i opened up my eyes and actually experienced the game for the mess that it is. This game is not deep, engaging, or well designed. Truth is, it’s a solo game with multi-player options. Terrible loot system, terrible dungeon and encounter design, no group integrity, no meaning to roles or playing with other people outside of a numbers game.

So basically, you just don’t like the system and have no intention on discussing the game further than “It’s a casual, boring, zerg, spam-fest because I say so.”

Frankly, you’re wrong. If you think blind, chill, cripple and immobilize aren’t “tangible” you need to set the bong down and pay attention.

Players who are in fractals above 30 seem to think that tightness of the skill system and execution of fights matter. Why are there in-depth discussion on strategies for the fights if what you’re saying were true?

Do you have any points to add that aren’t just negative hyperbole?

Hawkmoon.5849:

It’s amusing how many people are clearly satisfied with the mindless dim-witted combat in this game.

Vasham was right; Lot’s points only further emphasize it.

I would elaborate further, but it’s clear after 4 pages that there are too many sheep who are buying everything that ANet is selling… even this level of mediocrity.

The fact that you think either of those poster’s points were valid doesn’t lend much credibility to your opinion on the matter.

I can point out where the depth is in the combat, but if you’ve got your fingers in your ears and your mind made up, why bother? You’re just trying to ignite more flames, not have a discussion on where the game can improve.

Hawkmoon.5849:

It’s amusing how many people are clearly satisfied with the mindless dim-witted combat in this game.

Vasham was right; Lot’s points only further emphasize it.

I would elaborate further, but it’s clear after 4 pages that there are too many sheep who are buying everything that ANet is selling… even this level of mediocrity.

This “level of mediocrity” is what we paid 60 dollars for.

So you’re a wolf. And that gives you what, exactly? Your 60 dollars back? The chance of deciding for Anet on how to change their game?

No, I’m actually curious, please enlighten me. What do you all gain from this? Some kind of satisfaction that you can talk down on some stranger on the net?

Mackdose.6504:

The roles aren’t designed to be structured, and it’s painfully obvious that you can’t get your head out of the “this is my job, and it’s the only one I have” mindset.

Right, the roles in this game are more subtle and nuanced than the trinity system. The issue is that players have very little incentive to learn how they work outside of tPvP and high-level Fractals. You can run through AC or zerg in WvW/hotjoins without hardly coordinating at all, which leads people to believe that there is nothing to coordinate. It’s like running super easy/outleveled zones in trinity games with just DPS because you don’t need a tank or healer.

Hawkmoon.5849:

It’s amusing how many people are clearly satisfied with the mindless dim-witted combat in this game.

Vasham was right; Lot’s points only further emphasize it.

I would elaborate further, but it’s clear after 4 pages that there are too many sheep who are buying everything that ANet is selling… even this level of mediocrity.

Nothing wrong with the combat system. GW2 does have roles. Just not rigid.

Encounter mechanics need to be more complex to encourage teamwork. Defined roles don’t neccessarily make for better combat.

Lymain.6723:

Mackdose.6504:

The roles aren’t designed to be structured, and it’s painfully obvious that you can’t get your head out of the “this is my job, and it’s the only one I have” mindset.

Right, the roles in this game are more subtle and nuanced than the trinity system. The issue is that players have very little incentive to learn how they work outside of tPvP and high-level Fractals. You can run through AC or zerg in WvW/hotjoins without hardly coordinating at all, which leads people to believe that there is nothing to coordinate. It’s like running super easy/outleveled zones in trinity games with just DPS because you don’t need a tank or healer.

I’m starting to collect such things, so I humbly request that the both of you contribute the interesting roles beyond ranged DPS with toughness, here:
Thread on Roles/Build Archetypes

Lymain.6723:

Mackdose.6504:

The roles aren’t designed to be structured, and it’s painfully obvious that you can’t get your head out of the “this is my job, and it’s the only one I have” mindset.

Right, the roles in this game are more subtle and nuanced than the trinity system. The issue is that players have very little incentive to learn how they work outside of tPvP and high-level Fractals. You can run through AC or zerg in WvW/hotjoins without hardly coordinating at all, which leads people to believe that there is nothing to coordinate. It’s like running super easy/outleveled zones in trinity games with just DPS because you don’t need a tank or healer.

If it wasn’t this way, we’d see a thousand pages of THIS GAME’S TOO HARD, NERF THE ENEMIES.

I can’t be the only one who was here for the release deluge of explorables being too hard threads. there were big long discussions about how to play then, but everyone decided that waypoint running bosses was the thing to do, leading to the “all combat is zerg,” mentality we see in the OP of the thread.

The issue is content needing to require use of the combat depth. We need more clutch smoke screen saves (blast finisher in smoke to save a squishy being chased by a boss), and less HP bags with 2 abilities.

wildcode.5403:

The lack of the holy trinity(healer/dps/tank) in GW2 means we must change the playing style that we’ve grown lazy with by relying on the trinity in other games. GW2 is not “just” another MMO, GW2 redefines how we play MMOs and if we don’t change the lazy playing style that we have grown accustomed to, then we are left feeling like we don’t have a place in the game.

Because the tactics of “Die & run back” is sooo much fun, and only second to that all time favourite “Help! All 3 trash mobs are on me & I’ve no energy left to roll about like a Jedi with!”.

Yup, the game is fine without any kitten trinity or anything else… like fun!

Tactical tip of the day: “Ok, all drop combo fields and hope no one dies!”

Lymain.6723:

Mackdose.6504:

The roles aren’t designed to be structured, and it’s painfully obvious that you can’t get your head out of the “this is my job, and it’s the only one I have” mindset.

Right, the roles in this game are more subtle and nuanced than the trinity system. The issue is that players have very little incentive to learn how they work outside of tPvP and high-level Fractals. You can run through AC or zerg in WvW/hotjoins without hardly coordinating at all, which leads people to believe that there is nothing to coordinate. It’s like running super easy/outleveled zones in trinity games with just DPS because you don’t need a tank or healer.

^^This!^^

Add to the fact that it has made grouping less fun for some too. How so? Well, no one has to care or give a kitten about antone else, so if your in trouble… tough kitten, die & run back!
Yes, waiting for an hour for a tank or healer wasn’t fun. But only if you were the dpser, every ones I’ve ever met only cared about themselves & their damage meters, so it hardly mattered. Had they joined guilds (another unselfish act) they would have had groups!

Snowy.9580:

Lymain.6723:

Mackdose.6504:

The roles aren’t designed to be structured, and it’s painfully obvious that you can’t get your head out of the “this is my job, and it’s the only one I have” mindset.

Right, the roles in this game are more subtle and nuanced than the trinity system. The issue is that players have very little incentive to learn how they work outside of tPvP and high-level Fractals. You can run through AC or zerg in WvW/hotjoins without hardly coordinating at all, which leads people to believe that there is nothing to coordinate. It’s like running super easy/outleveled zones in trinity games with just DPS because you don’t need a tank or healer.

^^This!^^

Add to the fact that it has made grouping less fun for some too. How so? Well, no one has to care or give a kitten about antone else, so if your in trouble… tough kitten, die & run back!
Yes, waiting for an hour for a tank or healer wasn’t fun. But only if you were the dpser, every ones I’ve ever met only cared about themselves & their damage meters, so it hardly mattered. Had they joined guilds (another unselfish act) they would have had groups!

So, I’m starting to see it more clearly now.

What you seem to hate is actually not the game, but the players’ culture that you believe is a result of the game mechanics. You and others who feel this way may be right, but its like saying I put a razor in the toy box – whatever you do with that razor is up to you.

Dealing with people sucks, trinity or otherwise. I don’t understand why anybody would expect differently from this game. But don’t blame it for human nature.

Fuz.5621:

Snowy.9580:

wildcode.5403:

The lack of the holy trinity(healer/dps/tank) in GW2 means we must change the playing style that we’ve grown lazy with by relying on the trinity in other games. GW2 is not “just” another MMO, GW2 redefines how we play MMOs and if we don’t change the lazy playing style that we have grown accustomed to, then we are left feeling like we don’t have a place in the game.

Because the tactics of “Die & run back” is sooo much fun, and only second to that all time favourite “Help! All 3 trash mobs are on me & I’ve no energy left to roll about like a Jedi with!”.

Yup, the game is fine without any kitten trinity or anything else… like fun!

Tactical tip of the day: “Ok, all drop combo fields and hope no one dies!”

I don’t “die and run back”. Not after my first runs on the dungeons.
Learn and adapt.
You just suck at this game and you’re blaming the game itself for your lack of skill.

It’s funny you say that, because there is a path in CoF which you MUST use the “die, revive and run back” tactic otherwise it is virtually impossible. And don’t even try to argue that, this is due to a players skill or build because it’s clearly bad game design.

White knights like you are going to be the downfall of this game, it’s the reason SWTOR just fell apart, it’s blind fanboy fanbase who don’t know the meaning of constructive critisim and think their game is perfect in every single way, then wonder why the game ends up dead within a year.