(edited by Lalangamena.3694)
In my view, the Trinity Needs to Come Back
Trinity=wheel
GW2=re-designed the wheel
The trinity is still there, but more elaborate.
Proud member of Legion of Honour XIII
Do not click this link!
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It’s not that I want tank/healer/DPS, I just want a blend of roles, that when people are using together, have definition and have function, and synergy between other classes. And I would take a holy trinity if that is what it took.
I played a dps in WoW, a rogue. It took me some time to realize what is wrong with raids for me. It was exactly that I didn’t feel I’m contributing. My contribution was only a number, and even if it was a few hundred dps higher, I just didn’t feel that it mattered. After that, what remained was the rotation… Raiding with roles was boring as hell. Out of my 5 years of WoW, in the last one I didn’t put my feet into a raiding dungeon. But guess what, I still had a good time outside of raids, because there are other things to do in an MMO than raids. (There were/are a tons of casual people even in WoW who don’t raid. People seem to think that everyone in WoW always raids, and that’s the only thing it can be played for…)
Everytime someone asks about GW2, I say to them that they need to think outside the box, and not look at it like an MMO, because this phrase has just too much meaning attached to it. Think of it like an FPS/TPS with multiplayer. Are you bashing on an FPS because it’s a dps zergfest…? Yet people play FPS games for years as well. This game is just like that. There is a combat mechanic that you either like or don’t like, but the point is, the game is only b2p, so everything on top of the mechanics is just a plus.
By the way, did you enjoy your way up to 80 and some time after that? For how many hours did you enjoy this game? And for how many hours do you enjoy other games usually…? The game is not for everyone, it can’t please everyone, nothing can. If you don’t like it to the point you are calling it your ‘most abyssmal experience in your life’ , don’t play it – yes, this is the answer (you also should get a life, if you get so excited about a computer game…). If you don’t think the game deserves to be prospering, then why do you care? Why do you “torture” yourself over a frikkin game?? Are you doing this for other games as well? Why do you feel you have to force yourself to like a game…?
Don’t get me wrong, I know where you are coming from, I tried to like SWTOR, even bashed on it, well, not much, I wrote maybe 2 comments on the forum, then I moved on. I realized it was not for me (in my opinion it’s just a horrible game, but who am I to say what other people should like?), and just stopped playing it and didn’t care about it. You won’t change the game. Don’t get me wrong, it’s far from perfect, it has to get better in some ways, but you have problems with such BASIC features, that are not going to change. You want the game to be something it isn’t. You can’t have it all in one game, it just can’t be your ultimate game which has all the features in the exact form you want. And the bottom line is, it’s only a game, you take it far too seriously.
That said, I will just call people who bought the game and expected holy trinity and raids and all the things that were written down in black and white not being in the game, well, stupid…
(edited by Strayhand.8216)
It’s a well known fact that GW2’s PVE is horrible.
This gave me a chuckle.
It’s well known that players state opinions as facts.
Maybe, instead of just falling back into a tired, safe system, why not let them tweak and improve the one they have? Like you said, the GW2 system isn’t quite there yet, but then why completely overhaul the game into a scrappy old mechanic that everyone has seen overused so many times.
GW2’s system doesn’t have the luxury of working off of the old and well detailed trinity blueprint, because this is new territory that hasn’t been done to death. Anet is treading new ground here, and like with anything that’s new it’s going to need practice to get right. If you thought this system was going to be perfect from the get go, then you were only fooling yourself.
(edited by Azjenco.9425)
The problem I see with the trinity coming to GW2 is that: No tags, no loot. Think of all the healers.
Congratulations, you just described mostly every PUG experience in most MMOs since the dawn of time. Now if only there was a thing where you gathered a group of people together, whom with you could play on a regular basis, where everyone knew each other and appreciated what others were doing. We could call them something like… guilds!
I have severe and life-threatening health problems that a) make regular drama not something I like, and it’s unavoidable in guilds, and b) those health problems make it difficult for me to be reliable for regular dungeon runs, which was the case when I was in guilds.
GUILDS GUILDS GUILDS is not the answer for a lot of people. I like MMOs, I like doing things in groups, but my health issues force me to pug or go without, because people like to SAY they are understanding (and may mean it at the time) but they usually are not.
And honestly every time I was in high-end or even mid-range guilds, there was always that jerk (or a few) who can’t get out of the fire and then rages out for some reason or another.
Any guilds I’m in, it is on a casual basis and I usually just rep my own.
Ardeth, Sylvari Mesmer
Tarnished Coast
Tarnished Coast
(edited by Sylv.5324)
+1 for OP. Need TRINITY !
Not to mention that not all guilds are the same. Just because you are in a guild doesnt mean you can demand of others to run a dungeon with you if they do not wish to do so. They might be busy doing other things, play during varying times (even within the same timezone), and be online for different lengths than you. Not to mention guilds are of different sizes.
Colin Johansen casts – Working As Intended
Colin Johansen hits you for 239407889 damage
Game over
Colin Johansen hits you for 239407889 damage
Game over
Love it how people want trinity. When what really matter is people refusing to learn the system they have.
This system works much better than the trinity, however, if you dont learn to dodge, block, blind, daze, LoS and so on you are kitten out of luck. But thats not a problem with the games combat system, thats a problem with you.
If you enjoy standing there, with no risk of getting aggro while your tank stands there with the encounter and the healer keeps him up, then clearly this isnt the game designed for you. There are plenty of other options out there, people bought this game because it had no trinity and it works.
The abscence of the trinity has solved alot of issues that resides within the trinity concept. Like group finding, no need for healers or tanks, friends being able to group with friends no matter what professions they play. There is always room for whatever profession is looking since there are no designated spots for tank+heals.
You can tune groups for optimal preformance, but its far from needed.
Let Valkyries guide me to my destiny.
Trinity=wheel
GW2=re-designed the wheel
The trinity is still there, but more elaborate.
In redesigning the wheel, however, Arenanet turned a circle into a square and didn’t stop to ask, “Is our cart going to be able to move.”
Sure, the cart can move. It’s clunky, inefficient, and is really only being done to be “different.” There’s a specific reason the wheel hasn’t been redesigned, and that’s because it works so well it doesn’t need to be.
I’d also question a system that’s “more elaborate” when only three out of eight classes are desired for any content because the roles classes posses are so samey that damage delt is the only thing that separates them.
(edited by Vasham.2408)
I really didn’t like the trinity and I’m very happy with the current system. People have various things to do while being DPS be that buffs, minor healing, combo fields, finishers, conditions etc. On the whole I would HATE to see the trinity come to GW2. I really hope ANet build on what they have. If I wanted the trinity I’d play a different MMO.
It’s a well known fact that GW2’s PVE is horrible.
This is not a fact at all. This is simply your opinion. One that differs from others who enjoy the game’s structure.
But the trinity forces people into playstyles they don’t like and extends the time it takes to form a group!
False. While a time existed in previous MMOs where to play a certain class meant you played a certain role in the trinity that time has long passed. MMOs with good class balance (read: anything not by Arenanet) have either been released or changed their classes so the one you play isn’t pigeonholed into a specific role. I never met a tank or healer in WoW, Rift, or other games that played those roles exclusively yet didn’t enjoy it. The lack of those roles have turned many players away from GW2, and I can’t blame them.
Not false; not always. I’ve played a large number of MMOs over the years, and in many cases when looking for groups, if you didn’t have the type of role groups were looking for, you looked and looked for a group. This was more often the case with DPS characters, as there was typically more of them than anything else. FFXI was the most extreme example of this. When I played as a Monk, I would look for a party -all day- (17 hours was the longest), when I switched to Paladin or White Mage, I had a party within moments. So I was forced into roles I had less interest in, just to group to fight basic mobs. This is not uncommon in other games as well. I’ve also seen a number of parties fall apart because they couldn’t find a decent tank or healer. This happened over and over again.
The only exception I saw was City of Heroes, since with the sidekicking and exemplar feature (something some other games have emulated), which made it easier to find tanking and healing players when needed. There are other exceptions (Champions Online for example) but teaming wasn’t really necessary for those games, so I am leaving them off the discussion for now.
To touch upon your other point: lack of those trinity roles have lured a large number of players TO the game as well. It balances out. Those that like the trinity have a miriad of games to choose from that they can go and play. Those that don’t like the trinity have GW2.
New doesn’t mean good, if anything it’s proven the opposite. The lack of the trinity as a solid foundation for encounter design is why GW2 has had such trouble with it’s PVE content. Arenanet made the mistake of viewing the trinity in such shallow terms during development that they forgot why it’s stood the test of time. Without the trinity to provide that basic framework encounters boil down to a murky cloud of damage dealing and kiting. There’s nothing to support more advanced mechanics than the most basic of gimmicks as GW2’s dungeons and events have proved, and the new Fractals dungeon has reinforced that proof.
Deny it all you want, but PVE players are the backbone of a healthy MMO. With GW2’s sPVP in a rapid decline and the pipe dream of esports becoming more unreachable every day Arenanet will need to appease the PVE playerbase to stay afloat. With such poor encounter design limited by a wide eyed dream of a world with no trinity it’s an avenue they are not prepared to deliver on unless drastic change is made to class balance and the trinity is reinstated.
That, or we can look forward to spamming 2 again to kill the next Elder Dragon.
What is “Advanced” about standing around and spamming “taunt”? While someone else stands around and spams “Heal” and still another spams “Attack”? Are the fights in GW2 chaotic for the most part? Sure. I personally find it fun and a whole lot less boring than what you typically get with the trinity-based games that I have grown overly tired of though. Kind of amusing how you bring up Dungeons and Fractals and whatnot—I hated raids in WoW…huge, boring wastes of time. You didn’t even get decent rewards unless you ran them over and over again and then roll a die if something for your class dropped (hopefully you had enough DKP to even get to roll). I find the GW2 dungeons refreshing and fun and run them constantly with friends.
Some people like turn-based RPGs a la Final Fantasy and some people like dodge and fight RPGs like Dark Souls. They buy/play whichever version of play they like. It makes no sense at all to hop onto the Dark Souls forums and demand they remake the game because you only like turn-based play. This is basically what you are doing here. The game was advertised from the start that there would be no Trinity. You came into the game knowing this, tried it and didn’t like it. It’s time to move on. other folks like the play style just fine, despite your doom saying.
There are issues with PVE play (some of which are being addressed), but in my opinion, the lack of a trinity honestly isn’t it.
Some one said that no trinity requires everyone to pull their own weight. That’s the problem there seem to be so many 80s that CANNOT pull their own weight. (I am a PvE and a SPvP player). In dungeons it is PAINFULLY obvious when some one is not pulling their own weight and it seems recently the number of them has increased exponentially. I am so tired of getting groups at times not able to run simple TA runs or even AC. Because you are in charge of your own healing and dps and at the same time trying to contribute to the group some players are overwhelmed. Either they are glass cannons that can’t stay alive or they have low DPS and can only seem to mash one and not use other skills. In GW1 a good player could mask the weaknesses of other players like when 8 man groups used to have 2 warriors a good tank could negate the terrible skill of the second warrior or a good healer could negate low dps. But now say you have a player that cannot pull their weight it KILLS the dungeon. The trinity helped teamplay as a whole making things easier now with that gone in GW2 bad players are much more obvious.
The problem I see with the trinity coming to GW2 is that: No tags, no loot. Think of all the healers.
This was a problem in AION’s pvp. If healers did not tag players, they got much less credit. I can see this being a big issue in WvW as well as farming and whatnot.
Ardeth, Sylvari Mesmer
Tarnished Coast
Tarnished Coast
What is “Advanced” about standing around and spamming “taunt”? While someone else stands around and spams “Heal” and still another spams “Attack”?
I’ve said it before and it still stands true: to view the trinity on such shallow, ignorant terms doesn’t say much about you as an MMO gamer. Just because the basics of a role can be boiled down to a single word doesn’t mean it lacks complexity and doesn’t necessitate skill.
I could also ask what’s so “advanced” about “damage, damage, and more damage?” That’s GW2 in a nutshell. One role for everyone with the illusion of doing something more and having a “choice” of your playstyle.
Are the fights in GW2 chaotic for the most part? Sure. I personally find it fun and a whole lot less boring than what you typically get with the trinity-based games that I have grown overly tired of though.
Again, saying trinity based fights are purely static and boring shows your lack of experience and inability to make an educated argument. Tell me with a straight face that this fight isn’t chaotic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RMVAN-w1Ek
This is the Lich King fight on it’s easiest difficulty (10-man normal). Now compare that to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CmZ5O_XjKs
Only the first phase of Zhaitan kind of compares because, like phase 1 Lich King it’s an add rush. The rest is so dull and boring it’s mind boggling. If this encounter had the trinity supporting it we could have been up in Zhaitan’s face rather than spamming 2 for twenty minutes.
Kind of amusing how you bring up Dungeons and Fractals and whatnot—I hated raids in WoW…huge, boring wastes of time. You didn’t even get decent rewards unless you ran them over and over again and then roll a die if something for your class dropped (hopefully you had enough DKP to even get to roll). I find the GW2 dungeons refreshing and fun and run them constantly with friends.
Bolding for emphasis on where you destroyed your own counterpoint. How is RNG drops any different from grinding dungeons in GW2 for tokens? Let’s not forget that advancing in Fractals requires, you guessed it, RNG loot drops. Yes you can get tokens to buy rings now once every 10 dungeons, but how is that different from Justice/Valor points in WoW?
Protip: It’s not.
Some people like turn-based RPGs a la Final Fantasy and some people like dodge and fight RPGs like Dark Souls. They buy/play whichever version of play they like. It makes no sense at all to hop onto the Dark Souls forums and demand they remake the game because you only like turn-based play. This is basically what you are doing here. The game was advertised from the start that there would be no Trinity. You came into the game knowing this, tried it and didn’t like it. It’s time to move on. other folks like the play style just fine, despite your doom saying.
I’ve said it before and will say it again. I knew there would be no trinity, and I honestly throught that Arenanet would be competent enough to pull it off. I don’t see change as a bad thing, but you can’t change things just for the sake of change. Removing the trinity feels like that in the long run, change for change’s sake and not for any attempt at innovation.
Also, lol @ comparing GW2 to Dark Souls. No one who consider’s GW2’s combat mechanics good plays Dark Souls. Or if they do they’re terrible at it.
(edited by Vasham.2408)
I’m personally a Healer in every game that I play. GW2 is a nice breath of fresh air but the lack of trinity makes pve really boring for me. I’m waiting for Elder Scrolls Online for this reason. I miss healing, having a true UI and nameplates. The idea of no trinity works for GW2 and it’s player base and I thought it would for me too, but I’ve had a change of heart. I’ll keep playing though for sure, but this game won’t be my main MMO.
Maybe it’s because GW2’s way of handling it was poor in terms of difficultly. Their idea of harder higher fractals is adding more mobs rather than new mechanics. Lame. I would love it if they added raids like the World bosses since they feel so epic. But for some reason they’re so hard against them, yet they add Fractals with a new tier of gear? bleh.
It’s a well known fact that GW2’s PVE is horrible.
And its a well known fact that ppl that are horribad at GW2 PvE thinks that GW2 PvE is horribad.
This thread, as a lot of the “we-want-trinity-back” threads boils down to players that cant play without someone carrying them or a heal/tank crutch. Saying that standard trinity MMO dungeons requires “skills” is a mockery of the word skill. 95% of all trinity MMO dungeons is about gear, as soon as you got the gear everything turns into a snoozefest.
I have played a lot of the top end dungeons in the most populare MMOs and skill wise they aint challenging, get the right gear, a proper MT and a main healer and go afk watching TV. Yes playing MT does require some skill, mostly placement of the boss/pulls and you got to control the encounters but everyone else just stands around doing what their addons tells them…
Commander of Blade and Quill[BaQ]
Aurora Glade <3
Aurora Glade <3
It’s a well known fact that GW2’s PVE is horrible.
And its a well known fact that ppl that are horribad at GW2 PvE thinks that GW2 PvE is horribad.
This thread, as a lot of the “we-want-trinity-back” threads boils down to players that cant play without someone carrying them or a heal/tank crutch. Saying that standard trinity MMO dungeons requires “skills” is a mockery of the word skill. 95% of all trinity MMO dungeons is about gear, as soon as you got the gear everything turns into a snoozefest.
I have played a lot of the top end dungeons in the most populare MMOs and skill wise they aint challenging, get the right gear, a proper MT and a main healer and go afk watching TV. Yes playing MT does require some skill, mostly placement of the boss/pulls and you got to control the encounters but everyone else just stands around doing what their addons tells them…
So rather than try to give actual points to your view you insult everyone who disagrees with you? Class act right here.
So rather than try to give actual points to your view you insult everyone who disagrees with you? Class act right here.
….and instead of answering my and others very valid points about the trinity MMO dungeons you sulk about ppl pointing out that you are wrong.
Ohh and im not insult anyone, im just stating facts you know.
Commander of Blade and Quill[BaQ]
Aurora Glade <3
Aurora Glade <3
Sulk? Hardly. Though I do feel a little sorry for the white knights and fanboys.
I would also question the skill and experience of anyone who honestly tells me with a straight face that this game’s so called PVE is challenging in any way.
Hmm, yes, you know what?
So rather than try to give actual points to your view you insult everyone who disagrees with you? Class act right here.
Im pretty sure you know, who said that and im still waiting for you to respond you my points…
Its really easy, just answer the question. where is the skill in the trinity MMOs outside MT’ing and reading addons?
Commander of Blade and Quill[BaQ]
Aurora Glade <3
Aurora Glade <3
MMO combat is generally terrible and trinity is one of the problems, not a solution.
GW2 needs to improve its PvE encounters, monster behaviour, and combat mechanics. But the games to learn from are not traditional MMOs, but instead action games like DMC/Bayonetta, Dark Souls, Shadow of The Colossus, God of War, etc.
In the past technological and network reasons meant that MMOs had a lot of limits on how their combat could work. So all sorts of numbers-based complexity was introduced to make up for it.
We’re approaching the era where MMO combat can approach the visceral fun of singleplayer games. Let’s not take a step back into the era of bad MMO combat.
“Oh, you’re bored with the trinity? Did you beat <name of top tier boss here?> Because… You can’t talk about being bored if you didn’t!” is not the way to open a discussion. I’ve seen it on the WoW forums way too much from their fanboys, so please don’t come in here with that attitude and call everyone who disagrees with you a fanboy of GW2.
I don’t want a trinity; I like being able to spec how I feel like and use what weapons I like. I don’t want to sit in LA and spam for a tank/healer; I like being able to respond to any of the LFMs I see pop up. Which is good, because I don’t see that changing.
Yeah, the introduced a gear grind, but it’s a lot less work than most other MMOs, and hopefully the outcry at it being added taught them something about their player base.
so you want the holy trinity back. here an idea go enjoy 1 of the main normal mmo’s of this age and leave those of us that wish to explore a new way at peace.
from my point of view the holy trinity still exists to a small degree. yes, there is no cut and paste class for tanking, healing and dps (unless you count glass cannons) but its not impossible to make a tank like build or a build that is got healing in mind in this game. what it sounds like you want is to be allowed to focus on a small task rather then having to fend for yourself or work much closer as a group. because nothing says action pack like click target press 1,2,3,4 click new target press 1,2,3.4
#ELEtism
so you want the holy trinity back. here an idea go enjoy 1 of the main normal mmo’s of this age and leave those of us that wish to explore a new way at peace.
from my point of view the holy trinity still exists to a small degree. yes, there is no cut and paste class for tanking, healing and dps (unless you count glass cannons) but its not impossible to make a tank like build or a build that is got healing in mind in this game. what it sounds like you want is to be allowed to focus on a small task rather then having to fend for yourself or work much closer as a group. because nothing says action pack like click target press 1,2,3,4 click new target press 1,2,3.4
Nothing says action pack like click target 1. That’s what GW2 is btw.
Yes – my name is Nayru and I am a guy – we play games too, get over it.
We already have trinity in here, it’s called: Support, tank, dps.
Support: Every class can do it, elementalist has the best support/healing.
Tank: Every class can do it, guardian has the best tank/defensive skills.
DPS: Every class can do it, I believe elementalist has the best dps, or prolly mesmer hmmm or warrior? don’t really know lol.
Asking to bring something that is already here? lol wut? o.O
The only diference with other games is that GW2 allows EVERY class to do those jobs in diferent ways, which I love.
I don’t like a healer to stand on the back and press 5…5….5….5….5….5….5…. change target… 5….5….5… pff…
This thread, as a lot of the “we-want-trinity-back” threads boils down to players that cant play without someone carrying them or a heal/tank crutch. Saying that standard trinity MMO dungeons requires “skills” is a mockery of the word skill. 95% of all trinity MMO dungeons is about gear, as soon as you got the gear everything turns into a snoozefest.
I have played a lot of the top end dungeons in the most populare MMOs and skill wise they aint challenging, get the right gear, a proper MT and a main healer and go afk watching TV. Yes playing MT does require some skill, mostly placement of the boss/pulls and you got to control the encounters but everyone else just stands around doing what their addons tells them…
Thing is, trinity may be bad ; but this new system is cleary worse.
And obviously you didn’t try gw1
They got rid of trinity in Gw2, so, nice.
Trinity wasn’t so present in gw1. It was already redesigned in a way that allowed you to play without any “tank”. Melee were not thought to be “tanks”.
So let’s say gw1 either belong to the 5% or wasn’t trinity based.
Why change this system?
Actually, the whole “trinity” thing is more about logic than design in many games.
You got more armor? Frontline.
You deal dmges but your armor is lower? Midline.
You heal but don’t pretend to deal dmge? Why stay in the fire? Backline.
Gw1 was not a trinity game. Only a game with logical mechanics.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Team_roles
Gw1 wasn’t a “tank/heal/dps” game. But a “damage/support/control” game.
Control. That makes a game deeper. That was interesting and different.
And gear was not all. Nothing actually. You could have the best armor in terms of protection quite soon.
To destroy properly the trinity, you have to rip the game off of any real healing and allow everyone to tank and dps.
Which results in a fake synergy.
And its a well known fact that ppl that are horribad at GW2 PvE thinks that GW2 PvE is horribad.
PvE IS horribad.
Poor. Overeasy.
The mecanics and strategy implied are the same kind as those to play Assassin’s Creed multiplayer.
You can ""master"" the gameplay, but in some ways that are worthless.
Gw1 :
- Energy
- Activation of the skills displayed : rupts/anticipation
- Conditions were not only meant to basically DPS, or rupt/blind poooosh like that ;
there was synergy (the most basic one with warriors : bleeding, then allowing to apply deep wound (20% health reduction, healing less effective)), and something you can’t find without heal : pressure. - Enchantment : a simple one : echo : cast echo, then another spell “normally” : echo is replaced by this spell for X seconds ; attunements ; many and many different effects ; “protection” attribute for Monk : preventing dmges, not only healing.
- Stances : speed, attack speed, attack blocking, even preventing hexes (mantras), or rupts…
- Hexes : can interact with any other mecanic : slower attack, missed attack, dmges when casting a spell or attacking, longer activatingtimes, energy loss if you do some things (either attacking or trying to heal someone)…
- Spells to remove hexes and enchantments, with various effects
- Different AoE range
- Many skills, and secondary prof, allowing you to create and play really different builds, with complete different gameplay.
- IA was decent. And more. Targetting people together with AoE, targeting caster with skill A, using B on war, and then rupting Ele with C. Running from melee. Not staying in AoE… etc
Not only HP HP HP HP and one big skill.
Synergy was the main word. Everything was tied together.
You touch player A, the whole team can fall in 3s.
Either it is the mesmer, who was keeping an elementalist under control, or the monk ; even a war, then preventing dmges.
But the other team could do the same.
Constant interacting on many levels.
In Gw2, what do we have?
- Jump
- Dodge
- DPS
- DPS
- DPS
- DPS
Yes, you must think on how and when use this skill or another. To deal DPS. Or basically counter DPS. Amazing.
Failed synergy.
Pseudo-complexity.
There is one good thing about gw2. I play gw1 again.
Imo there is no DPS roll in GW2 PvE, glass cannon builds are stupid. The people complaining probally are glass cannons that want a tank or healer to keep them up. Again, the game isn’t broken cause you can’t make a build.
If you are looking for a cozy mature Dutch guild (EU) let me know.
(edited by Fox.3469)
huh… you learn new stuff every day… apparently GW2 PvE is horrible and needs to change. also Trinity needs to “come back”. yeah.
No.
Server: Kaineng | Guild: Blackflame Legion [BFL]
Perhaps the only RP-oriented guild on the server
Main Character: Farathnor (sylvari ranger) 1 of 22
Perhaps the only RP-oriented guild on the server
Main Character: Farathnor (sylvari ranger) 1 of 22
Ok lets entertain ourselves for a short moment. Lets say they decide there will be class roles in GW2. Ho daddy is it going to be lively around here with that switch in direction. I would then suggest any one in a design/pr role for GW2 to change their names legally if they ever want to work in this industry again, if yet another large change like that occurs.
Ok back to reality, IT AIN’T HAPPIN’N. There needs to be a Fantasy or Jr. Game Designer sub-forum here for all these idea’s and what if’s. I put in a suggestion that we get a single keystroke to pickup loot and not trigger other things like NPC conversations or equipping an item from the ground. I’ll be doing back flips if we get that. Some want to overhaul the entire combat model engine. Welcome to planet earth space boy.
(edited by Horrorscope.7632)
Good lord, no. The second the trinity’s introduced, it’d become a hundred times more difficult to form a group.
WvW & sPvP would be ruined by it too.
The lack of the trinity is one of the best things about the game.
Great how the pro-trinity people compare a WoW raid to GW2 5 mans… Yeah ok…
5man vs 5man, GW2 is more exciting. WoW 5mans were dull, too easy and not very dynamic. Stand in one spot, dps, stand in one spot, tank, stand in one spot, heal… boring.
Let Valkyries guide me to my destiny.
Great how the pro-trinity people compare a WoW raid to GW2 5 mans… Yeah ok…
5man vs 5man, GW2 is more exciting. WoW 5mans were dull, too easy and not very dynamic. Stand in one spot, dps, stand in one spot, tank, stand in one spot, heal… boring.
The only thing difficult about raids is that there are more people, they don’t even have much harder mechanics, but in a bigger group it’s more likely for someone to fail.
If you are looking for a cozy mature Dutch guild (EU) let me know.
I love these posts about ‘the trinity’
Listening to the WoW/Rift/etc. elitists spout about assigned roles and their superiority to any other system actually make me appreciate this game and its mechanics more and more.
I love the fact that dungeon groups have to actually adjust to the composition of their groups’ classes and the skill of its players. It makes for a more interesting experience than punching a series of buttons in some choreographed dance the trinity elitests call “skill”.
Imo there is no DPS roll in GW2 PvE, glass cannon builds are stupid. The people complaining probally are glass cannons that want a tank or healer to keep them up. Again, the game isn’t broken cause you can’t make a build.
Broken, probably not.
Boring and without interest, definitely yes.
I appreciate the “you’re bad, so you don’t like the gameplay”.
But I prefer “the gameplay is bad, so I don’t like it”.
huh… you learn new stuff every day… apparently GW2 PvE is horrible and needs to change. also Trinity needs to “come back”. yeah.
No.
Gw2 PvE is limited. And Gw2 gameplay is horrible.
Concerning trinity, I assume it would just be a way to get a decent gameplay. Could be other possibility.
Ok lets entertain ourselves for a short moment. Lets say they decide there will be class roles in GW2. Ho daddy is it going to be lively around here with that switch in direction. I would then suggest any one in a design/pr role for GW2 to change their names legally if they ever want to work in this industry again, if yet another large change like that occurs.
Ok back to reality, IT AIN’T HAPPIN’N. There needs to be a Fantasy or Jr. Game Designer sub-forum here for all these idea’s and what if’s. I put in a suggestion that we get a single keystroke to pickup loot and not trigger other things like NPC conversations or equipping an item from the ground. I’ll be doing back flips if we get that. Some want to overhaul the entire combat model engine. Welcome to planet earth space boy.
Yes, not like if the manifesto was a sweet lie. I trust them more than ever
And the “combat model engine” is not to be entirely changed. Many mechanics are already here, intrinsically. Add more (much more) skills, true healing, and that’ll be a beginning. Free our neurons.
Back to you, captains fanboyz.
May your strong arguments triumph from evil contructive feedback.
There is one good thing about gw2. I play gw1 again.
^I really enjoy your spirit, but you write like there is even a chance at this. There is I suppose, but it won’t have nothing to do with us writing about wanting it. They have proven they will do whatever they want on their own. I recall very little of the cry for ascended type gear, it just happened from the game owners, because they looked it all over and made it so, not by listening to what the gamer wants. Or that is my belief anyway.
Great how the pro-trinity people compare a WoW raid to GW2 5 mans… Yeah ok…
5man vs 5man, GW2 is more exciting. WoW 5mans were dull, too easy and not very dynamic. Stand in one spot, dps, stand in one spot, tank, stand in one spot, heal… boring.
Would we call the Cathedral runs GW2 raids? I like them because they just happen organically, you don’t have to organize groups. There is no real limit, run it with 5, 20, 50… Just happens.
Good lord, no. The second the trinity’s introduced, it’d become a hundred times more difficult to form a group.
WvW & sPvP would be ruined by it too.
The lack of the trinity is one of the best things about the game.
Actually no, it wouldn’t.
Where a lot of games with trinities fail, is that there’s very little replay value to content. There’s still more tanks around than you’ll ever need, but why do they want to do that dungeon when there’s absolutely nothing in there for them?
This leads to the pile of damage dealers at the lower end of progression. But when there’s actually a reason for a tank to go back and do something every day, finding that tank is actually very easy.
You guys keep blaming bad game design on the trinity. The trinity is only your combat role, that’s it, nothing more. All the problems you guys bring up is a failure in game design, that after 15 years, developers are STILL making the same mistakes.
The lack of the holy trinity(healer/dps/tank) in GW2 means we must change the playing style that we’ve grown lazy with by relying on the trinity in other games. GW2 is not “just” another MMO, GW2 redefines how we play MMOs and if we don’t change the lazy playing style that we have grown accustomed to, then we are left feeling like we don’t have a place in the game.
Because the tactics of “Die & run back” is sooo much fun, and only second to that all time favourite “Help! All 3 trash mobs are on me & I’ve no energy left to roll about like a Jedi with!”.
Yup, the game is fine without any kitten trinity or anything else… like fun!
Tactical tip of the day: “Ok, all drop combo fields and hope no one dies!”
I don’t “die and run back”. Not after my first runs on the dungeons.
Learn and adapt.
You just suck at this game and you’re blaming the game itself for your lack of skill.It’s funny you say that, because there is a path in CoF which you MUST use the “die, revive and run back” tactic otherwise it is virtually impossible. And don’t even try to argue that, this is due to a players skill or build because it’s clearly bad game design.
White knights like you are going to be the downfall of this game, it’s the reason SWTOR just fell apart, it’s blind fanboy fanbase who don’t know the meaning of constructive critisim and think their game is perfect in every single way, then wonder why the game ends up dead within a year.
It is not the only way to win, simply the most easily executed, and yes it is basically due to them trying to close what they felt was an exploit, the encounter wasnt initially designed in that fashion
But what does this have to do with trinities anyhow? i remember numerous Die/sacrifice/etc mechanics in trinity games, I remember people requiring reraise items in FFXI, and many sacrificial pulls, etc. This comes down more to how they want to design encounters than the benefits or non benefits of trinity.
Im not a white knight or a black night, i evaluate each issue based on the relevevent data, and this game would gain nothing at all by becoming trinity based. The group mechanics and teamwork plays are already there, they really would just have to design the encounters to be harder if they wanted to force people to play with teamwork better.
However, people dont really like getting their kitten handed to them until they reach the pinnacle of teamwork and figure out every strategy. On groups i ve seen many people ask for trinities, and usually its when they are getting beat because they arent playing that well, or working well as a team.
The real advantage of the trinity is people know what they are supposed to be doing clearly, and how to evaluate themselves. They also know that everyone else needs them to be doing exactly what they are doing because the others cant do what they are doing. The greatest tank in the world will need a healer, the greatest healer needs a tank, the greatest dps needs a tank. They feel valuable.
But in reality this is a shallow game mechanic, while it is good to have specialities or strengths, and roles, these shouldnt be as rigid, also the healer mechanic is an invented one, they create more unavoidable damage so as to create the healer class, in a true skill based game, the more skilled you are, the less you would need a healer even should it exist.
The tank as it exists in many games is also invented, they give the class that is least likely to be targeted by any intelligent opponent, the ability to force enemies to attack them.
for you it is some the trinity is a fun mechanic, but i think if teh thread shows anything it is that, the trinity is not universally loved, and everyone doesnt hate GW2 combat, I generally enjoy teh combat mechanics, i think the biggest problems with GW2 combat is encounter design, and the things they do that limit the combats entertainingness for the sake of pvp class balance in PVE
No trinity… just no. Anyone who’s pro trinity should go somewhere else. ANet has learned a lot from their older dungeons by making Fractals.
First Team to reach 250 has 87% chance to win (Updated 7/30/2014) : http://bit.ly/1lWH6T8
Great how the pro-trinity people compare a WoW raid to GW2 5 mans… Yeah ok…
5man vs 5man, GW2 is more exciting. WoW 5mans were dull, too easy and not very dynamic. Stand in one spot, dps, stand in one spot, tank, stand in one spot, heal… boring.
The only thing difficult about raids is that there are more people, they don’t even have much harder mechanics, but in a bigger group it’s more likely for someone to fail.
I figured it out… All you guys that attack WoW’s combat system are the one’s who never actually raided.
WoW’s appeal was its endgame. It put an importance on placement, the direction things are facing, kill orders, REAL crowd control… It wasn’t just about numbers, but also about geography.
You weren’t playing on the idea that you have more people so someone is going to fail, when it came to raiding, you were focused on if enough people can do it right.
If you think combat in WoW was just stand there and spam buttons over and over, you’ve clearly never REALLY played WoW, especially back in its prime.
Now for 5 mans, it’s not that simple either. While trash might be somewhat laid back, you have AoE to avoid, cleaves, fights with kill orders, tons of mechanics that will just kill you if they hit you, mechanics that will kill the rest of the group if they hit you. There’s things that are going to chase you, times you’re going to need to stun things so the group can kill it… And then we have GW2… kite dodge and kill. While some of the stuff not just wow, but almost every other modern MMO has is also stuff in GW2, there’s a lot of stuff they could have done but just didn’t.
A trinity opens room to limit role while adding more ways to be challenging.
A TRULY innovative game will be able to get all those same challenges in, but without needing a trinity at all. That wasn’t this game. They just used no trinity for the sake of not having one, there’s nothing new though.
Tank/Heal/DPS trinity will not make dungeons more fun. The trinity will not allow for better mechanics. Because it makes everything predictable and scripted. Trinity is not what you are actually asking for. Most people clamoring for trinity cite WoW for its supposed variety of boss mechanics and say it allows for more than just dodge and kite.
Remember your last raid, what exactly were you looking at on the screen. I will tell you what you were looking at, THE SKILL BARS. That’s right folks, don’t deny it. You spent half the time looking at the skill bar spamming the exact same sets of keys with your mind on autopilot.
The entire concept of trinity is TANK and SPANK. Every fight, no exception. As long as there is a tank, there will be tanking and healing. As long as there is DPSing, there is spanking. Every fight boils down to the exact same thing. Tank takes damage, healers negate damage, DPS deals damage.
Trinity compartmentalizes the PvE into minigames. Sure, you can script encounters for more things, but you are still staring at your healing grid playing Guitar Hero Raid Edition while tabbing to your Tetris mod ever so often during raids. Remember vanilla raids or TBC raids in WoW? The amount of vitriol on the elitism and how “dumb” the raids were rivals the backlash of the Lost Shores event.
This call for trinity reminds me most, ironically, of WoW. The same arguments were used on the superiority of PvE vs. PvP. Raiders call PvP simple “dodge and kites” and PvPers consider raiding slow quick-time events. Also, it’s very similar to GW1 players crying foul over GW2’s PvE. Now, what does GW1 and trinity has in common? Certainty.
The moment you walk out your cities/outposts and into the dungeons and the wilds, you know exactly how well your group/raid will do. You know exactly what to kill, how to kill, when to kill, how fast to kill it. Failure occurs only on your execution of the routine. You know as a healer, if you die, it’s the tank’s fault, you didn’t fail. If the bosses enrage, the DPS failed, everyone didn’t fail. When you die as a tank, the healers failed, not you.
Back in WoW, PvP was very different than PvE. You have no idea who you’ll be fighting, when you’ll be fighting, where and how until the games begin. You know exactly who failed and by how far from the charts. There’s the uncertainty of success and the fear of failure, two things most people play games to escape from. It gets your adrenaline rushing through your body and creates the same feeling like your first State Championship. It’s a feeling of stress most people rarely feels and rarely wants to feel. It’s like being put on the spot, like jumping over a deadly chasm.
This brings us back to GW2. This uncertainty permeates much of GW2’s design. The randomness and the lack of tank means you are uncertain whether you’ll prevail. What if the boss hits you randomly, and you are squishy as a kitten? Are the enemies going to chain stun you this time? You can’t anticipate these things until you are actually in the fight. If you go by all the interviews, that’s ANet’s intention at least. They call this “Dynamic”.
The problem with GW2 is that the execution of this is poor. A lot of their game mechanics can be overcome and trivialized by other game mechanics. Once that happens, those who seek the rush and excitement in games starts to make posts on the forum about “stagnation” and “repetitive dodge and kites.”
The broken mechanics of GW2 does actually allow for a lot more challenging and varied fights. However, the main problem is again, people. the moment you add something challenging or not meant to be cleared by most players, everybody cry foul. The almost natural thing to do is to simplify and dumb down fights and give giant pools of HPs at the bosses to pad out the running time. This is actually what ANet says. Thankfully? They are going to develop and implement more complex fights as the players become more familiar with the “Dynamic” style of combat.
What needs to be done is to rebalance the classes so that having certain classes don’t trivialize the fights, also, cut boss HP pools by at least half.
Oh the ignorance in this post… 9 out of 10 of your pseudo arguments are false.
I dont need trinity per se, but I want real ROLES in dungeons. That is what makes combat feel like you are part of a team. Every organized sport has roles and positions. GW2 feels like a free for all with 4 other people.
I want real roles.
I want an instant action/lfg tool.
I’m not playing until I get at least one of them.
My $0.02.
Oh the ignorance in this post… 9 out of 10 of your pseudo arguments are false.
I have this horribly nagging suspicious that you only read the first paragraph before posting, or else you would have something more meaningful to say.
I just wanted to put in my two cents for this conversation…
I’ve been a tank or healer in all of my mmo career. I got tired of it. I thought GW2 would bring something different without the roles. It did, but not for the better. I miss the trinity. I miss having a role and responsibility in combat. I miss the TEAMWORK aspect of it.
My Oaken Manifesto:
I want a real ROLE that I play in PvE and WvW. Real in that you have to gear/spec for it and that it makes a substantial difference. This doesnt have to be traditional Tank/Heal/DPS. But I want clear and defined roles that matter and are needed.
I want a real LFG tool. I cant for the life of me understand why this doesnt exist yet. It is easy to develop and one of the most used tools in mmo’s. Arenanet should be embarrassed that there is a website that most players use for this purpose because they wont do it themselves.
My $0.02.
snip
So let’s look at the system we have now before we start whiny, ignorant fanboy rants to try and white knight against people that you THINK are trying to make this game into WoW or whatever it is that you really, really smart people believe…
You have class divisions by functionality, flavor, strength…but they are not balanced by a system that is the backbone of many traditional, modern MMOs.
The problem here is a lack of roles. They designed off of concepts that worked on paper, but not in action with social interaction taken into account.
GW2 is trying to please too many types of people in an attempt to maximize revenue, but this hurts the direction of the development. They retain some mechanics and systems of trinity based design, but they deviate too far from the fundamentals which creates many problematic instances.
Things that the lack of roles and trinity effects negatively in this game…
- The ability of the developers to design with balanced, stable, and consistently scaled combat difficulty ( and engagement by association) to encounters.
- Group integrity, team play depth, practical combat depth.
- Build tangibility, individual effectiveness, role specialization.
Things that, when compounded with the aforementioned, create fundamental design issues…
- Content delivery in the form of dynamic events and hearts is too shallow to encourage meaningful player engagement.
– Can leave players feeling alienated or under-engaged, especially in a MMOG.
– With FoTM and Legendary grind, most zones are empty making progress grindy.
– The reliance on rigid content structure leaves little room for flexibility. To quote another user from this board,
" Think about it. Arenanet can’t give you, the player, a personal quest to assemble your Legendary. They can’t put in a drop from say, Lupicus, that then begins a quest that sends you to the depths of the Citadel of Flame to talk to a Flame Legion turncoat who will help you forge the mighty dagger Incinerator. "
-Galen.9042, “Legendaries: Why Grinding Is The Only Option” 2012
- Grouping and Guilds are largely redundant outside of dungeon running or unless you need an extra chat room.
– Single-player feel.
- Builds are not solid or tangible in most cases, making the meta hard to define or purposefully deviate from for most players. Furthermore, there is absolutely no way to efficiently communicate them to other players in the game.
- Combat, encounters, and player identity feels like a backdrop to a casual-focused cash shop operation, whereas it should be the centerpiece.
- The reliance on lazy content design through the use of the mystic forge and grind as a game-play principle.
Put this all together and you’ve got the core problems for GW2 as an MMO in a nut shell. You can agree or disagree, but this has been my observation through discussion with hundreds of players.
I wrote this in a previous thread to outline, for those (most of the posters in this thread) who may not fully understand why there are so many threads that propose this as a solution to the current problems.
I’d also like to add that, while GW2 has roles, they can be very intangible and ineffectual in the broad scheme of team play. This means that speccing a certain way and communicating strategies (which the game doesn’t even support, i.e you can’t link trait builds or skill bars, but does it even matter due to how casual the game has been designed?) based on the combat or skills system is basically unnecessary because of how the game is designed. It’s also not because we need a system to delegate roles, but that we need the roles to be more defined and structured. There are so many problems in engagement created by the combat system they chose and how shallow it is. Do you really have fun wailing on a boss for 15-20 minutes just to get a blue drop? Do you really have fun fighting a boss in an MMO that has mechanics that belong in a Nintendo game for kids?
I actually want the fights to get more like Zelda. Watching for boss tells and telegraphs of skills etc.
It’s pretty easy: Most MMO’s give you the trinity. There are games almost as pretty as GW2 out there that give you the trinity. GW2 is doing something slightly off kilter that is fun. If you don’t want the GW2 flavor, that is fine. There are other games to play that offer you the tried(tired) and true(?) trinity formula. Most of us don’t want the trinity.
I’m gonna use one of the fractals as an example: The Colossus. This fractal is mostly about positioning. The design is as close to flawless as I have seen in a dungeon though. Aesthetically it is gorgeous. It hits all the right notes from a lore perspective and it’s about reading the tells of the boss. When he charges his hammer, you proc a block or you dodge. It has a great finish with how our buddy walks away at the end.
If you have dropped any amount of time into this game and are not enjoying it, then maybe it’s just time for a break. Wanting an entirely different mechanical system added to the way this game is played at this point is not looking to the future. ArenaNet is a very iterative company and their dungeon design is only going to get more creative from this point forward. Have some forward thinking and look at where their design is going as opposed to looking to the past. I think the way the fractals are designed(from a mechanics standpoint) shows that they understand how to please all fronts. Example: Gated content that doesn’t have a gate for people that just want to do group content, but adding a gate for people that want gear progression that only gates the content in the fractal. It’s brilliant design.
Leader of The Guernsey Milking Coalition [MiLk] Sanctum of Rall
O its this guy again. You really should go bother another forum. A customer has the right to express his opinion but all you do is bash the game non stop and troll the forums
Dragonslayer
GoF Commander
GoF Commander
City of Heroes/Villains was wildly successful. They had a tank archetype, but you didn’t need them to tank for you. They had a support archetype, but you didn’t need them to heal for you. You had all the roles, you just didn’t HAVE to have them in any setup to make things work.
Idk, man, but doesn’t that seem like more fail to you than any of the other two systems talked about here?
Its like they’re saying “Hey, we designed some archetypal character roles for you -which by right we intend for you to play in a certain way- but you can pretty much play however you want with them”
And I would be like “So… um… which one is it really? Defined roles or not? You seem like you cant make up your mind.”
Karate do or karate dont. No karate middle.
No, it isn’t a fail. They had classes built do be able to do a bit of anything and play however they wanted, yet could specialize to do good. You could have a ‘Defender’ who is an archetype built around support and you could play it to do any of the following: Heal, DPS, Buff(via several methods. Increase damage, increase defense, increase resistance, lower skill cooldowns, increase endurance regeneration, increase movement speed or jumping, etc), Debuff(via all those previous methods in the Buffs section, only the opposite), or a mix of all of those things. And you could be kitten good at them if you built to be so.
As a Tanker, you could build to be a meat shield that could absorb huge damage, build to hold more aggro, build to do more damage, even look at ways to change from single target to AOE damage skills.
But you didn’t need either of the above for your groups. You could get a scrapper who built a little tanky to hold the aggro. You could get a controller to handle some buffs/debuffs/heals while also providing crowd control of all sorts of different kinds(hard CC like holds, stuns, mez’s, confusion, or softer CC like pets that could tank some, slows, knockdowns, knockbacks, etc). Or, you could mix and match and grab guys that could support one another to make them better, like a defender/controller matched up with a scrapper who could provide him far greater defenses or offensive power to either survive the battles or end them quicker.
You could also go a whole other route and build pure damage dealers like Scrappers and Blasters who could combine some of their abilities to slow, knockback, knockup, debuff, etc the enemy to death, helping to keep each other alive.
The system had a TON of flexibility. But in GW2, you don’t have that to anywhere near that extent. What you have is a system where everyone is DPS. Period. You can have some heals, some debuffs, some buffs…but they are a pain to use, difficult to actually get them to function properly, and in the end, they are barely of any use. On a Controller in CoH with a Force-Field secondary power set, my team knew whether my buffs were on or not. Without them was sudden death. With, a rousing good battle.