Guild Wars 2

tonyl.5063:

Fox.3469:

SneakyErvin.3056:

Great how the pro-trinity people compare a WoW raid to GW2 5 mans… Yeah ok…

5man vs 5man, GW2 is more exciting. WoW 5mans were dull, too easy and not very dynamic. Stand in one spot, dps, stand in one spot, tank, stand in one spot, heal… boring.

The only thing difficult about raids is that there are more people, they don’t even have much harder mechanics, but in a bigger group it’s more likely for someone to fail.

I figured it out… All you guys that attack WoW’s combat system are the one’s who never actually raided.

WoW’s appeal was its endgame. It put an importance on placement, the direction things are facing, kill orders, REAL crowd control… It wasn’t just about numbers, but also about geography.

You weren’t playing on the idea that you have more people so someone is going to fail, when it came to raiding, you were focused on if enough people can do it right.

If you think combat in WoW was just stand there and spam buttons over and over, you’ve clearly never REALLY played WoW, especially back in its prime.

Now for 5 mans, it’s not that simple either. While trash might be somewhat laid back, you have AoE to avoid, cleaves, fights with kill orders, tons of mechanics that will just kill you if they hit you, mechanics that will kill the rest of the group if they hit you. There’s things that are going to chase you, times you’re going to need to stun things so the group can kill it… And then we have GW2… kite dodge and kill. While some of the stuff not just wow, but almost every other modern MMO has is also stuff in GW2, there’s a lot of stuff they could have done but just didn’t.

A trinity opens room to limit role while adding more ways to be challenging.

A TRULY innovative game will be able to get all those same challenges in, but without needing a trinity at all. That wasn’t this game. They just used no trinity for the sake of not having one, there’s nothing new though.

i’ve raided in wow, did ICC and dragon soul heroic all the way, finished it up in about a month each/left. wow is easy if you have a good guild. Cause like it or not, the raiding in wow is about positioning, that’s it, for example if you can tank with 1 class you can tank, the class doesn’t matter in much more then the looks and style, the role does. Not saying i didn’t enjoy myself, but right now going back to a wow like game is impossible for me, i’m enjoying myself way to much in GW2.

Now i don’t mean to disrespect wow and i still think it’s a very good game. Lots of my friends still play it. If you want a quality trinity experience please do have fun in Wow. (I really mean it, it’s the best trinity game out there, and trinity gameplay does have it’s charms, i’m not gonna deny that.)

But GW2 is designed for a non-trinity system. I personally like it better (wich is my opinion) then wow cause it actually lets me play the way i want (where in wow i was one of the few people in my guild that could tank so i had to tank since others did 500 more dps then me) Now i respect that you have doubts about wich game to pick, but please, do not try to bring them closer together. The more they are alike the more they’ll be compared and eventually one game will kill the other (wich will then be wow killing GW2 cause wow has more experience with the trinity systems)

GW2 can stand besides wow if it offers a different experience, wich some players like myself are looking for. Now it doesn’t matter how much you want a perfect mmo. Or how most people’s perfect mmo looks. There already is a near perfect trinity mmo… This game isn’t supposed to be that.

Now if i were to say what sells GW2 to me, it’s the class and weapon system, a guardian plays so different then a warrior, and changing weapons now and then is just refreshing. Simple thing is if you need every class to have certain agro mechanics so you can build a tank, and certain heal mechanics to be a full healer, classes will blend together, and won’t be as unique as i feel they are now.

I don’t want “heal” “dps” “tank” and that’s it, i want my playstile to mean something and it does right now, people playing the same class can play it totally different and still do kind of simular things, it’s a personal system, instead of “if you want to dps, do this, it’s the way to go”

GW2 is about creativity and anticipation, wow is about execution.
In GW2 i change my build daily to try stuff, in Wow i changed my built when a patch nerfed the old one, or when something got buffed that surpassed the old one.
In GW2 encounters never really go the exact same way, and playing good demands you to react to what happens. In wow you try to perfect your execution to beat the boss.
I prefer GW2, but in the end it’s all personal. If you say Wow is a better game, then you are probally right, it’s a better game for you.

So wow and GW2, wich one? it’s up to you, choose, but don’t try to make them the same game, they can be different, that’s why we have this choice in the first place. I don’t want wow to die and i don’t want GW2 to die, i want to be able to freely choose where to put my time in. If GW2 goes trinity it will die, cause that’s something wow has mastered, and then we won’t have the luxury of choice.

combat needs more mechanics….all it is currently is zerg the boss…dodge the red…yay….gets boring

Vasham.2408:

Could Arenanet fix the problem without adding the trinity to GW2? Maybe, but the chances are slim to none. It would take creative encounter design on a level I’m not sure they have or are willing to commit to and even then without that necessary foundation it still couldn’t compare to more popular MMOs in terms of difficulty.

It doesn’t take much creativity to increase the DPS and survivability checks in the encounters.

The “necessary foundation” is solid for difficult encounters. Sure, they may need to tweak some things like Unshakable/Unstoppable, Healing Power, ect, but there are a lot of ways players could deal with damage that comes too quickly to dodge (stealth, healing, vigor, protection, weakness, aegis, blind, cripple/chill/immobilize, ect).

oaken.6382:

I dont need trinity per se, but I want real ROLES in dungeons. That is what makes combat feel like you are part of a team. Every organized sport has roles and positions. GW2 feels like a free for all with 4 other people.

I want real roles.
I want an instant action/lfg tool.

I’m not playing until I get at least one of them.

My $0.02.

You have real roles. Figure out what your class is best at, and do it. They were all designed this way, but ANet expects you to hammer out your own playstyle and then use it to your group’s advantage.

=

Fox.3469:

So wow and GW2, wich one? it’s up to you, choose, but don’t try to make them the same game, they can be different, that’s why we have this choice in the first place. I don’t want wow to die and i don’t want GW2 to die, i want to be able to freely choose where to put my time in. If GW2 goes trinity it will die, cause that’s something wow has mastered, and then we won’t have the luxury of choice.

You said this perfectly.

Horrorscope.7632:

lothefallen.7081:

I did a dungeon naked with my Guardian + Hammer and went AFK on bosses with 1 on auto and never died. Cleared the dungeon, got almost 70 silver, tokens, loot, and only had to move my character to the bossfights. Didn’t have to communicate with my team at all. Didn’t have a role, i just sat there, put down wards, and never died. I washed the dishes, watched a few youtube videos and made a bagel with cream cheese and capers all while auto-piloting.

Do people defending the game as it is not play it? Are they even lv 80 yet?

This is an interesting post.

First you do what you do, but you would rather not have a loophole, by the last line you use. So why not make a video and send it to the devs, I am certain they would like to see this and fix it. I am certain they do not want this to be possible. It sounds like you are taking advantage of something, blame the game for allowing it, but then not taking steps on your end to help.

But I also have to buy your story at face value:

1. You were botting if you believe it or not.
2. You didn’t only have one on repeat, but you had to have all the wards on some type of macro as well.
3. Somehow you washed dishes and did things with cream cheese but were able to move to non-boss encounter to non-boss encounter. Not sure how this was done legit.

No sure if serious. But no matter how that was done, if that was done, I’m sure the team would love to rebalance somethings to then make your game more challenging for you and everyone.

PS And most importantly. Please share your build, I’d love to try it out. I don’t kid.

No macro needed, Hammer Guardian autoattack chain sets down protection ward and when traited you can heal with it.

The trait setup is

15/0/20/30/5

Full exotic P/V/T & Dolyak Runes (6)

You can basically solo champions like the one near drakkar spurs in frostgorge, veterans, dungeon bosses…etc. Might as well tell others because im sure they’ll nerf the living hell out of what little fun there is in this combat / trait / skill system in future patches.

digiowl.9620:

I find myself starting to wonder if the problem is control, or lack of suck, of the battlefield. Tanking is in a sense about control, being able to control who the mobs focus on. Or similarly deny them the ability to do certain things.

But with the aggro mechanic being a virtual black box – join one PUG and you can’t shake the mob no matter how much you try, join another and you find the exact same mob ignoring you completely – and what controls we have, interrupts, usually being on long cooldowns – making them timing of their use a life or death issue – the players end up having a distinct lack of control over the battle.

End result is that we are fighting on the mobs terms, rather than our own. For some that may be exciting, and i would not want to deny them the right to do things that way if they so choose, but for others it becomes a real frustration.

For an example outside of the dungeons, i can’t really deal with more than one mob aggroing me by locking down most of them while dealing with one. I have to deal with them all constantly or i find myself back at a waypoint with damaged armor.

End result is that i learn that if i want to get anything done i need to find ways to dump a massive amount of AOE damage on them in a short amount of time. This because i can’t really compensate for lack of AOE via crowd controls.

It sounds like at the very end, you learned the wrong thing. Fight smarter, not harder. If you don’t have enough control to take them all down by yourself, you either need to compensate with more support options (protection? vigor?), better dps targetting (whittle down their numbers), or just avoid that situation entirely and/or escape.

Alipius.4783:

Well… I can’t edit to add this… too long…

Silentsins.3726:

Geren.1945:

The point is with most effects so ridiculously short in length, you might as well not bother with em’, since they won’t probably make much of a difference and your time could probably be better spent just smashing stuff in the face instead.

Then, your enge drops glue shot for another 3 seconds before going back to DPS, followed by your ele, who also happens to be paying attention, extends the control even further by throwing frozen ground in front of that. Meanwhile, the whole enemy group tries to run at your group in a ball the whole time.

You don’t get it. The above is a common example of how the game is intended to be played. How it IS played by good players. Most people would rather complain then figure that out though…

It is control, indeed, I can’t say it isn’t…
But god, you say it is the way “good players” play, it seems to requiere everybody’s attention, and it’s only… what? Snare? to be able to run in front of mobs? Nice for melee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyYmN2dzJ18
Last time I used it, it was for D3. Here’s another sign

That’s not what I’d call control, or with many more things acting on at least cast/attack, in different ways

Just because you don’t call it control, does not mean is it not, in fact, control. Just as everyone has to heal themselves, everyone needs to control together. That means linking one person’s snares to another person’s. Interrupts and stuns aren’t the only type of control.

you know there are more MMO’s then just WoW out there…..

yet still…its amazing how much WoW still has an influence to be the fallback insult or compliment in any MMO debate.

Its true…just about any MMO debate no matter the game…somehow WoW will get mentioned somewhere… heck someone mentioned WoW in the FireFall beta forums the other day…

digiowl.9620:

Right now it seems that ANet is leaning towards APM/timing challenging rather than cerebral challenge.

and you know what? i like that. its a good change of pace.

but id also like the other sort of challenge as well.

Vasham you are correct on all fronts, although from what I have read few seem to understand. The simple fact is that GW2’s PVE is egregiously inferior to WoW, Rift, etc. I know it is blasphemous to say this because GW2 “revolutionized MMO’s” and we no longer have to be “subjected to the grindfest gear treadmills that are all other MMO’s,” but let’s look at the facts. PVE is a mess. The trinity was replaced by no real substitute as has been discussed on numerous threads on this forum, and the mechanics of the fights are laughable when compared to Blizzard’s fights. Call WoW a gear treadmill all you want but you are either a fool or someone with no serious endgame PVE experience if you seriously suggests ANet’s PVE meets the bar. Vasham has covered the implications of this as well. The player base is defined by PVE players and I do not see anything sustainable right now. This game could be great but ANet did not have to abandon what WORKED in other MMO’s.

Disclaimer: I am a former WoW raider with realm first world top 50-100 kills for 6 straight tiers. You can hate on Blizzard all you want but you can not deny that they masterfully design amazing encounters, something ANet has not come remotely close to.

The way I see it, even if the PvE is seen as worse, changing to a trinity system will not solve that. That’s the primary problem I see with Vasham’s argument.

Instead of comparing to other MMOs, why don’t you compare GW2 with it’s focus on dodging and self-healing to other games entirely? Like action games? Or FPS? Or anything not an MMO? How do fights and encounters there get much more interesting?

In any game, there are player mechanics and enemy mechanics. You’re hating on the enemy mechanics while proposing the solution is in the player mechanics. It’s not. It’s in the enemy mechanics.

And stuff like this:

Disclaimer: I am a former WoW raider with realm first world top 50-100 kills for 6 straight tiers. You can hate on Blizzard all you want but you can not deny that they masterfully design amazing encounters, something ANet has not come remotely close to.

Is an opinion. I don’t like Blizzard style encounters. But, Blizzard did design encounters that you found masterful.

Kausion.9384:

Vasham you are correct on all fronts, although from what I have read few seem to understand. The simple fact is that GW2’s PVE is egregiously inferior to WoW, Rift, etc. I know it is blasphemous to say this because GW2 “revolutionized MMO’s” and we no longer have to be “subjected to the grindfest gear treadmills that are all other MMO’s,” but let’s look at the facts. PVE is a mess. The trinity was replaced by no real substitute as has been discussed on numerous threads on this forum, and the mechanics of the fights are laughable when compared to Blizzard’s fights. Call WoW a gear treadmill all you want but you are either a fool or someone with no serious endgame PVE experience if you seriously suggests ANet’s PVE meets the bar. Vasham has covered the implications of this as well. The player base is defined by PVE players and I do not see anything sustainable right now. This game could be great but ANet did not have to abandon what WORKED in other MMO’s.

Disclaimer: I am a former WoW raider with realm first world top 50-100 kills for 6 straight tiers. You can hate on Blizzard all you want but you can not deny that they masterfully design amazing encounters, something ANet has not come remotely close to.

Very good post and tactful.
GW2 does turn into a grindfest…for “skins”
Boss fights are nothing compared to other MMO’s like rift/WoW/enter MMO here. It is true, they are just Zergs and dodging the red circles.
Anet has a long way to go….time will tell.
GW2 wants to be an action MMO….Ive never played Tera (I know it didnt take off like pp were hoping) but Ive read Tera has a better combat system…is this true?

Proven.2854:

Is an opinion. I don’t like Blizzard style encounters. But, Blizzard did design encounters that you found masterful.

I believe the general consensus among millions of MMO players is that Blizzard designs great encounters. I would venture to guess you are the anomaly, not me. Trinity may not be the answer for GW2, true, but something needs to change. The mechanics are just sad. It may be enemy mechanics, it may be player mechanics. The truth is it is probably both.

I dont think this game needs tanks or healers

But I agree that something needs to be done.. dodging red circles isn’t my idea of fun.

Kausion.9384:

Vasham you are correct on all fronts, although from what I have read few seem to understand. The simple fact is that GW2’s PVE is egregiously inferior to WoW, Rift, etc. I know it is blasphemous to say this because GW2 “revolutionized MMO’s” and we no longer have to be “subjected to the grindfest gear treadmills that are all other MMO’s,” but let’s look at the facts. PVE is a mess. The trinity was replaced by no real substitute as has been discussed on numerous threads on this forum, and the mechanics of the fights are laughable when compared to Blizzard’s fights. Call WoW a gear treadmill all you want but you are either a fool or someone with no serious endgame PVE experience if you seriously suggests ANet’s PVE meets the bar. Vasham has covered the implications of this as well. The player base is defined by PVE players and I do not see anything sustainable right now. This game could be great but ANet did not have to abandon what WORKED in other MMO’s.

Disclaimer: I am a former WoW raider with realm first world top 50-100 kills for 6 straight tiers. You can hate on Blizzard all you want but you can not deny that they masterfully design amazing encounters, something ANet has not come remotely close to.

Interesting.

As an old person with a certain degree of skill and 20 years of MMO experience, I found WoW PvE -especially the trinity- to be the pinnacle of autopilot easymode watch-tv-while-raiding mess.
GW2 PvE at least require you to dodge and block manually (which is automatic in WoW), requires position/warding/BB to block mobs whereas in WoW it’s a mere calculation (threat) that you build by using threat buttons, is reaction-based while WOW is as easy as “memorize this rotation and do it”.

Blizzard’s simple-minded design of encounters and simplistic, brain-dead combat system that requires no skill makes it seem they are directing their game to kids in the ages 8-12.
I ran all WoW had to offer and everything was terribly easy and straight-forward, whereas in GW2 I found some challenges even in PvE.

See, this is my opinion (like yours) and I didn’t even need to put it down as a fact as you did which gives it more value and credibility.

You want Blizzard trinity and dungeon design? Go play WoW.
GW2 would not gain any benefit in dumbing down its mechanics to the level of WoW – it would actually lose the largest chunk of the playerbase.

The greatest selling point of GW2 is the huge step forward in the mechanics of combat – some people will evolve and learn it, others will not understand it and go back to games with autopiloted gameplay.

Red Falcon.8257:

Interesting.

As an old person with a certain degree of skill and 20 years of MMO experience, I found WoW PvE -especially the trinity- to be the pinnacle of autopilot easymode watch-tv-while-raiding mess.
GW2 PvE at least require you to dodge and block manually (which is automatic in WoW), requires position/warding/BB to block mobs whereas in WoW it’s a mere calculation (threat) that you build by using threat buttons, is reaction-based while WOW is as easy as “memorize this rotation and do it”.

Blizzard’s simple-minded design of encounters and simplistic, brain-dead combat system that requires no skill makes it seem they are directing their game to kids in the ages 8-12.
I ran all WoW had to offer and everything was terribly easy and straight-forward, whereas in GW2 I found some challenges even in PvE.

See, this is my opinion based on 20 years of experience and I didn’t even need to put it down as a fact as you did which gives it more value and credibility.

Vasham has already shot down this argument that is used often by people like you. I don’t know what your 20 “years of experience” comprised of but it obviously was not serious endgame raiding. To seriously suggest that it is “autopilot easymode” is ludicrous. You are seriously suggesting that players could watch TV and eat while pushing for top kills of Yogg 0-light. Let’s be serious.

Red Falcon.8257:

Kausion.9384:

Vasham you are correct on all fronts, although from what I have read few seem to understand. The simple fact is that GW2’s PVE is egregiously inferior to WoW, Rift, etc. I know it is blasphemous to say this because GW2 “revolutionized MMO’s” and we no longer have to be “subjected to the grindfest gear treadmills that are all other MMO’s,” but let’s look at the facts. PVE is a mess. The trinity was replaced by no real substitute as has been discussed on numerous threads on this forum, and the mechanics of the fights are laughable when compared to Blizzard’s fights. Call WoW a gear treadmill all you want but you are either a fool or someone with no serious endgame PVE experience if you seriously suggests ANet’s PVE meets the bar. Vasham has covered the implications of this as well. The player base is defined by PVE players and I do not see anything sustainable right now. This game could be great but ANet did not have to abandon what WORKED in other MMO’s.

Disclaimer: I am a former WoW raider with realm first world top 50-100 kills for 6 straight tiers. You can hate on Blizzard all you want but you can not deny that they masterfully design amazing encounters, something ANet has not come remotely close to.

Interesting.

As an old person with a certain degree of skill and 20 years of MMO experience, I found WoW PvE -especially the trinity- to be the pinnacle of autopilot easymode watch-tv-while-raiding mess.
GW2 PvE at least require you to dodge and block manually (which is automatic in WoW), requires position/warding/BB to block mobs whereas in WoW it’s a mere calculation (threat) that you build by using threat buttons, is reaction-based while WOW is as easy as “memorize this rotation and do it”.

Blizzard’s simple-minded design of encounters and simplistic, brain-dead combat system that requires no skill makes it seem they are directing their game to kids in the ages 8-12.
I ran all WoW had to offer and everything was terribly easy and straight-forward, whereas in GW2 I found some challenges even in PvE.

See, this is my opinion (like yours) and I didn’t even need to put it down as a fact as you did which gives it more value and credibility.

Remember my statement about how no one who sees the trinity in such a simplistic light cannot possibly be experienced enough to understand why it’s a superior system? Good example right here. Also, you said earlier in the thread:

Been playing MMOs for 15 years and no trinity game requires a quarter of skill that GW2 does – especially those where tank and healer gimmick the whole fight.

So apparently this thread has been going on for five years? News to me.

Kausion.9384:

Vasham has already shot down this argument that is used often by people like you. I don’t know what your 20 “years of experience” comprised of but it obviously was not serious endgame raiding. To seriously suggest that it is “autopilot easymode” is ludicrous. You are seriously suggesting that players could watch TV and eat while pushing for top kills of Yogg 0-light. Let’s be serious.

Some people cleared Scarlet Monestary and believe that makes them an authority on the intricacies of PVE progression and the holy trinity, I guess.

Angelus.1042:

GW2 wants to be an action MMO….Ive never played Tera (I know it didnt take off like pp were hoping) but Ive read Tera has a better combat system…is this true?

seems to make comparisons to Tekken and Street Fighter. Now if that is good or bad i leave up to the individual player.

Nayru.4537:

What you will find on the forums is a lot of blind fanboyism, they often lie to try to defend this game, try not to pay too much attention to it.

Anyway, it’s kind of interesting how people think tank, heal, dps = WoW.

Shows how much WoW has the upper hand in this market.

Who says holy trinity means WoW? A lot of people have left the game due to the boring combat in GW2. Lack of roles played a huge part in that.

True. I only referenced WoW because I believe it sets the standard for endgame PVE. It is true, however, that many other games have it right as well. I left WoW as a result of being burned out and I love GW2. I am just a realist. GW2 has some serious changes to make in PVE.

Proven.2854:

digiowl.9620:

I find myself starting to wonder if the problem is control, or lack of suck, of the battlefield. Tanking is in a sense about control, being able to control who the mobs focus on. Or similarly deny them the ability to do certain things.

But with the aggro mechanic being a virtual black box – join one PUG and you can’t shake the mob no matter how much you try, join another and you find the exact same mob ignoring you completely – and what controls we have, interrupts, usually being on long cooldowns – making them timing of their use a life or death issue – the players end up having a distinct lack of control over the battle.

End result is that we are fighting on the mobs terms, rather than our own. For some that may be exciting, and i would not want to deny them the right to do things that way if they so choose, but for others it becomes a real frustration.

For an example outside of the dungeons, i can’t really deal with more than one mob aggroing me by locking down most of them while dealing with one. I have to deal with them all constantly or i find myself back at a waypoint with damaged armor.

End result is that i learn that if i want to get anything done i need to find ways to dump a massive amount of AOE damage on them in a short amount of time. This because i can’t really compensate for lack of AOE via crowd controls.

It sounds like at the very end, you learned the wrong thing. Fight smarter, not harder. If you don’t have enough control to take them all down by yourself, you either need to compensate with more support options (protection? vigor?), better dps targetting (whittle down their numbers), or just avoid that situation entirely and/or escape.

Would love to, except that access to either of the boons mentioned are usually short lived and long cooldown (if available at all).

As for focusing on a single opponent at a time, maybe. Except i see little difference in DPS going for single target vs AOE, and with AOE when i am done i am done. This compared to having to start over fresh 2+ times.

And if i am to avoid all the time, i will get nowhere. This because the game loves to throw multiple mobs to aggro nearby mobs when i attack any one of them.

I have looked over my available options on multiple professions and each time i end up having to go back to the ranged AOE kite because alternatives do not allow me to take control of the fight in any real sense of the word.

Kausion.9384:

Nayru.4537:

What you will find on the forums is a lot of blind fanboyism, they often lie to try to defend this game, try not to pay too much attention to it.

Anyway, it’s kind of interesting how people think tank, heal, dps = WoW.

Shows how much WoW has the upper hand in this market.

Who says holy trinity means WoW? A lot of people have left the game due to the boring combat in GW2. Lack of roles played a huge part in that.

True. I only referenced WoW because I believe it sets the standard for endgame PVE. It is true, however, that many other games have it right as well. I left WoW as a result of being burned out and I love GW2. I am just a realist. GW2 has some serious changes to make in PVE.

WoW is the industry standard, so there’s nothing wrong with using it for comparison. For all the zealots like to fling poo at it’s mention they have to accept that GW2 needs to stand up to WoW in terms of quality in order to stay afloat. Right now though GW2 has a one ton weight around it’s ankles dragging it deeper and deeper into irrelevance every day while WoW continues to recover and grow after an admittedly bad expansion pack.

Funny how people from both sides only react to what they can counter, check my previous post at the top and react, i dare you.

You can’t…

Im sorry like GW2 over WoW. People will follow the standard will never improve thats all im going to say.

CMF.5461:

So final question: How can we find ways to feel special and different, or does that not need to matter and we need to look past that?

I think you hit the nail on the head there (so to speak).

Since the ‘roles’ are ‘dynamic’ depending on who and what professions show up for a fight how does a “skill based” game make people feel special like the “role based” games before it?

Special “dyes” that are awarded and soul bound for achieving ‘xxx’??
Special “skins”?

There are a number of statistics that are on our hero pages that could be tied into some kind of visible acknowledgement of our achievements. Would that help?

MaRko.3165:

- but wait – this is a MMO!

As someone who has never played a ‘mmo’ before I don’t see how the ‘mmo’ element makes this game any different. I’ll simply play the existing content and if entertained or interested enough I may roll another toon and play through again (or a few more times).

That’s a single player gamer mentality. This is supposed to be an MMO.

The expectation of an MMO is to deliver a persistent world with long-term goals and content updates on a regular basis. It’s not a “play, play again later…” proposition, and that may end up being quite frankly the final nail in the GW2 coffin.

Fox.3469:

Funny how people from both sides only react to what they can counter, check my previous post at the top and react, i dare you.

You can’t…

I’ll take that bet.

I don’t want “heal” “dps” “tank” and that’s it, i want my playstile to mean something and it does right now, people playing the same class can play it totally different and still do kind of simular things, it’s a personal system, instead of “if you want to dps, do this, it’s the way to go”

There are no roles in this game other than DPS. Your playstyle means nothing because it’s all the same role with different window dressing.

GW2 is about creativity and anticipation, wow is about execution.

The only way “creativity” can be used properly discussing GW2’s class build system is if you call it “creatively bankrupt.” DPS with some gimmick skills, that’s all you are. If you’re a class the devs don’t favor (ie: not a Warrior, Guardian, or Mesmer) then you’re even less than that.

So wow and GW2, wich one? it’s up to you, choose, but don’t try to make them the same game, they can be different, that’s why we have this choice in the first place. I don’t want wow to die and i don’t want GW2 to die, i want to be able to freely choose where to put my time in. If GW2 goes trinity it will die, cause that’s something wow has mastered, and then we won’t have the luxury of choice.

Everything we have to go by tells us that GW2 is already dyeing. Adding the trinity won’t magically kickstart it’s demise, rather it might save it by adding solid PVE design and challenging content therein. If you chose to stick with a sinking ship don’t complain when you drown after refusing to patch the hole in it’s side.

I’m on the fence so to speak, i dunno if GW2 needs the trinity but…i agree what we have instead isn’t working at all either, the OP makes a lot of good points, the current mechanics in this game are far from working…

We still get classes ignored and kicked from parties (Ranger, Engineer etc) so thats not changed any..

The everyone dogpile on the overpowered boss for no gain (loot) is getting tiring to play, or insane instant kill mechanics like COE boss Alpha spam which is impossible to survive bar occasional luck…

Dunno if we need the Trinity back but we need something fixed…

Dont support this- sorry but the holy trinity actually required no real tactics what so ever…played many mmos in my life and action oriented combat will always require more skill and teamwork …

Vasham.2408:

Fox.3469:

Funny how people from both sides only react to what they can counter, check my previous post at the top and react, i dare you.

You can’t…

I’ll take that bet.

I don’t want “heal” “dps” “tank” and that’s it, i want my playstile to mean something and it does right now, people playing the same class can play it totally different and still do kind of simular things, it’s a personal system, instead of “if you want to dps, do this, it’s the way to go”

There are no roles in this game other than DPS. Your playstyle means nothing because it’s all the same role with different window dressing.

GW2 is about creativity and anticipation, wow is about execution.

The only way “creativity” can be used properly discussing GW2’s class build system is if you call it “creatively bankrupt.” DPS with some gimmick skills, that’s all you are. If you’re a class the devs don’t favor (ie: not a Warrior, Guardian, or Mesmer) then you’re even less than that.

So wow and GW2, wich one? it’s up to you, choose, but don’t try to make them the same game, they can be different, that’s why we have this choice in the first place. I don’t want wow to die and i don’t want GW2 to die, i want to be able to freely choose where to put my time in. If GW2 goes trinity it will die, cause that’s something wow has mastered, and then we won’t have the luxury of choice.

Everything we have to go by tells us that GW2 is already dyeing. Adding the trinity won’t magically kickstart it’s demise, rather it might save it by adding solid PVE design and challenging content therein. If you chose to stick with a sinking ship don’t complain when you drown after refusing to patch the hole in it’s side.

A trinity system is not challenging at all.
Sounds like alot of you people are just whining because this game is too challenging for you without the trinity system that everyone has become accustomed to.

As a thief, I like the role that i play. I’m a glass cannon type, I typically have the lowest health of everyone I’m partied with and die the most. That’s fine with me because that’s how I chose to shape my character. So in dungeons I dont pull the agro. I take out the little annoying mobs and make sure everyone is alive. When I start pulling agro I back off and switch to pistols, kitting until someone else has it.

In dungeons like fractals, if everyone is getting owned I usually end up the last man standing and can revive everyone so we dont have to start over. Thats the beauty of being able to go invis.
When you walk into a room and there are too many mobs for the party, scorpian wire comes in really handy.
Thats what teamwork is.

You just have to know how to play your character and know the disadvantages/advantages to whichever weapons and skills you chose to have.

I do not think the trinity should come back. This game is unbelievably refreshing without it, and I think Arenanet did a positive for the entire MMO industry when they went this route. Needs some tweaks like anything to make it even less trinity-like(so that people cannot build “tank” specs and be able to soak all damage… but I think they’ve done great with this.

My mmo gaming roots are from Meridian59, EQ1, UO, DAOC, EQOA, SWG, Vanguard, EQ2, GW, WOW, SWTOR, GW2. Some various mmo betas and trials here and there that never made any impact to the community. The games I spent the most time in were EQ, EQ2, and WoW.

EQ I was a minor raider, and only did things I needed to do for quests, such as Vox and Nagafen, then some Temple of Veeshan stuff before I quit. Same goes for EQ2 to a much lesser extent cause I got tired of raiding from EQ.

WoW I didn’t put a lot of effort into it until the end of BC and the start of LK. I pushed and raided much of the LK content till Cata came out and the new story didn’t intrigue me as much, but finished Firelands and Deathwing.

In all those games I have typically played a tank, and only at the end of WoW did I start going dps with some dabbling in healing.

Honestly I found the WoW encounters and general content a regurgitation of its previous encounters/content/skins many times. What’s that? dragon fight, well it probably has some sort of frontal cone and tail swipes, don’t stand in front. everyone stand in back or sides, watch for big tells to move in or away from certain mechanics.

Maybe we need 2 tanks to soak up damage or trade agro…

Oh adds came in? Either we kill them, or we kite them.

Bosses health is linked? Learn to switch targets or split dps…or even better if the mechanics let you, aoe them together.

First time through was interesting enough, but seeing the same fights used from expansion to expansion was silly. Yes they were revitalized, but Blizzard is the king at rehashing old content with a pretty new ribbon to satisfy the masses. I found it insulting though.

The new fights with Pandaria have huge obvious signs to tell people you are the target, or move out of these rings. Taking deadly boss mods and integrating it into the main game now in essence.

I wonder what it would look like if someone were to compile the boss fight mechanics from wow release to now.

As for GW2, I don’t feel that combat is horrible and broken, but I do agree it needs to be spiced up and give us more impact on what we do, but I do not think trinity is the answer. More mechanics, more interaction, more reward for skill and good play.

edit
Was just remembering EQ group requirments: War, Cleric, Enchanter, and what ever else…or else you were going to fail. Often times you “needed” a Monk to FD pull groups of mobs to pull singles out and not die.

Clerics job? complete heal. Casting any other spell resulted in a delay in CH and causing a death. Cleric rotations on raids were ridiculous.

THAT was a rigid system.

What surprises me is people being so adamant that GW2’s PvE is so radically different to WoW’s. I confess to not seeing that at all. I completely fail to see how “avoid and spank” or “kite and spank” is different to the much maligned “tank and spank”. You could make a strong arguement for the skill required in even a tank and spank encounter is greater than that required for a kite and spank encounter in GW2. In a trinity system, players must manage resources (mana, rage, energy, you name it) whereas GW2 only has energy. You have to manage cooldowns, but you had to do the same thing in WoW for that matter (and many of them were far more gamechanging than the pathetic elite skills most classes have. A well timed innervate could make or break an entire encounter). Trinity requires aggro management, and before 2 dozen people say that tanking changes in WoW made aggro management obsolete, I’m referring to vanilla WoW. I have no experience with anything from BC onwards. GW2 has an aggro system, but I doubt even Stephen Hawking could figure out how it works.

Where are the truly challenging GW2 encounters? Two come to mind, Lupicus and Subject Alpha. However the first has been soloed (which doesn’t exactly speak for it being truly challenging. If one lone player can defeat it, a co-ordinated group should have no problems). As for Alpha, the only real thing you have to learn is the composition of the red circles, and when to dodge or stand still. That, frankly, is a fairly low-skill challenge.

Everything else is a breeze. Players have waltzed through the toughest content GW2 has to offer almost the same week it’s released. It took players five months to complete Molten Core in vanilla WoW. And that was with co-ordinated, experienced guilds. I’ve pugged just about everything GW2 has to offer. You couldn’t claim the same about WoW back in the day (maybe you can now. I don’t know).

Which leaves us with the conclusion that either Arenanet is incapable of making difficult content, due to the restraints of their combat system, or they are unwilling thusfar to make it. Which is it? Time will tell, but it does seem odd that they would launch a game and keep updating it without so-far having added anything truly challenging.

MistyMountains.3751:

Dont support this- sorry but the holy trinity actually required no real tactics what so ever…played many mmos in my life and action oriented combat will always require more skill and teamwork …

Sorry, didn’t realize it was opposites day.

Not having the trinity results in total, chaotic combat with absolutely zero strategy required and no tactics applied. That’s what we have here in GW2 here now.

Team combat is all but non-existent. It’s a joke of an MMO.

Simply saying it took five months to complete MC doesn’t tell the whole story, since much of that time was likely taken up passing through gear gates and the whole issue of actually finding a time to get 40 people on all at once.

Most of the supposed difficulty in WoW was about logistical issues involving the organization of large groups of people and getting them to do exactly what they needed to do at the right time. Individual tasks were not difficult, but communicating when exactly they need to flip a switch in a group of 40 was the hard part. With a group of 5 like you have in GW2, there are fewer variables, and such communication hiccups are significantly reduced if not eliminated entirely.

So the question is now, what is challenging with the current paradigm of no trinity.

• Knowing what attacks to dodge and what attacks to simply walk out of are one mechanic of GW2 combat.
• Using bundles like rocks or specialized weapons in combat are another thing they have done.
• Adds are in combat here that you have to manage or kite.
• Enemy composition on priority of easiest target to kill to hardest are in encounters.
• Knowing choosing whether to range an enemy or melee is another combat choice.
• Staying out of red rings on ground (don’t stand in the fire!)
• The downed system is odd and frustrating, but can be used as a combat mechanic for players to recognize how to get up from being downed by a non-dodgeable attack.

Those are all things that have been done without the use of trinity or profession specific mechanics. Can we kick that up a notch and add more interesting ideas?

Maybe a fight that removes dodge and requires players to use stuns/immobilizes/knock downs to not be hit.

A mobile fight where the tunnel is collapsing and you have to run forward and fight.

A fight where you have to drag the enemy to traps to do damage or cause a debuff to make it vulnerable to attacks?

Those are primarily boss type encounters, but what can you think of in general to make the game combat more dynamic without a trinity.

edit

What if the combo system were enhanced and you could do things like a leap attack combo with a slam attack to give a flying ground stomp. Give button combos that do different things instead of just combo field and combo finisher.

Kausion.9384:

Red Falcon.8257:

Interesting.

As an old person with a certain degree of skill and 20 years of MMO experience, I found WoW PvE -especially the trinity- to be the pinnacle of autopilot easymode watch-tv-while-raiding mess.
GW2 PvE at least require you to dodge and block manually (which is automatic in WoW), requires position/warding/BB to block mobs whereas in WoW it’s a mere calculation (threat) that you build by using threat buttons, is reaction-based while WOW is as easy as “memorize this rotation and do it”.

Blizzard’s simple-minded design of encounters and simplistic, brain-dead combat system that requires no skill makes it seem they are directing their game to kids in the ages 8-12.
I ran all WoW had to offer and everything was terribly easy and straight-forward, whereas in GW2 I found some challenges even in PvE.

See, this is my opinion based on 20 years of experience and I didn’t even need to put it down as a fact as you did which gives it more value and credibility.

Vasham has already shot down this argument that is used often by people like you. I don’t know what your 20 “years of experience” comprised of but it obviously was not serious endgame raiding. To seriously suggest that it is “autopilot easymode” is ludicrous. You are seriously suggesting that players could watch TV and eat while pushing for top kills of Yogg 0-light. Let’s be serious.

Lets be serious like you said. First the type of pve player you speak of those that push for world first etc make up less then 1% of wows player base. Changing a game to fit what they want is huge waste of resources. Also even with the implementation of the looking for raid only about 20% of players in wow do end game raiding. So well pve players do make up the majority of a game raiders do not.

Like has been mentioned before. It is up to you to make a group and define rolls but I will help you. Crit hammer guardians can pretty much face tank a dungeon add in a d/d Elle with +healing gear you now have a tank/healer combo you should from there have your dps players slot abilities that have a cc element to them. With a set up like this and good players that dodge being one shot you should now have a group that feels much like what your used to.

If anything I feel that most of the complaints about pve in this game come from the fact that the game does not hold your hand and tell you what you should do.

Zeldain.5710:

MistyMountains.3751:

Dont support this- sorry but the holy trinity actually required no real tactics what so ever…played many mmos in my life and action oriented combat will always require more skill and teamwork …

Sorry, didn’t realize it was opposites day.

Not having the trinity results in total, chaotic combat with absolutely zero strategy required and no tactics applied. That’s what we have here in GW2 here now.

Team combat is all but non-existent. It’s a joke of an MMO.

Not totally related, but an fps with no combat roles what so ever has tons of strategy and tactics required in order to hold rooms, clear hallways, and reach objectives.

There isn’t a tank, healer, and dps in counter strike but there are tons of strategies in that game if you want to use them (even if most just zerg a spot)

So positioning and team coordination are still around in non-role oriented combat.

Red Falcon.8257:

Kausion.9384:

Vasham you are correct on all fronts, although from what I have read few seem to understand. The simple fact is that GW2’s PVE is egregiously inferior to WoW, Rift, etc. I know it is blasphemous to say this because GW2 “revolutionized MMO’s” and we no longer have to be “subjected to the grindfest gear treadmills that are all other MMO’s,” but let’s look at the facts. PVE is a mess. The trinity was replaced by no real substitute as has been discussed on numerous threads on this forum, and the mechanics of the fights are laughable when compared to Blizzard’s fights. Call WoW a gear treadmill all you want but you are either a fool or someone with no serious endgame PVE experience if you seriously suggests ANet’s PVE meets the bar. Vasham has covered the implications of this as well. The player base is defined by PVE players and I do not see anything sustainable right now. This game could be great but ANet did not have to abandon what WORKED in other MMO’s.

Disclaimer: I am a former WoW raider with realm first world top 50-100 kills for 6 straight tiers. You can hate on Blizzard all you want but you can not deny that they masterfully design amazing encounters, something ANet has not come remotely close to.

Interesting.

As an old person with a certain degree of skill and 20 years of MMO experience, I found WoW PvE -especially the trinity- to be the pinnacle of autopilot easymode watch-tv-while-raiding mess.
GW2 PvE at least require you to dodge and block manually (which is automatic in WoW), requires position/warding/BB to block mobs whereas in WoW it’s a mere calculation (threat) that you build by using threat buttons, is reaction-based while WOW is as easy as “memorize this rotation and do it”.

Blizzard’s simple-minded design of encounters and simplistic, brain-dead combat system that requires no skill makes it seem they are directing their game to kids in the ages 8-12.
I ran all WoW had to offer and everything was terribly easy and straight-forward, whereas in GW2 I found some challenges even in PvE.

See, this is my opinion (like yours) and I didn’t even need to put it down as a fact as you did which gives it more value and credibility.

You want Blizzard trinity and dungeon design? Go play WoW.
GW2 would not gain any benefit in dumbing down its mechanics to the level of WoW – it would actually lose the largest chunk of the playerbase.

The greatest selling point of GW2 is the huge step forward in the mechanics of combat – some people will evolve and learn it, others will not understand it and go back to games with autopiloted gameplay.

Funnily enough, also as an older MMO player I found it to be the opposite. It used tactics, planning, timing and above all, knowing your class and it’s role.

Here I find it’s more like Street Fighter, with no plan, zero tactics and jumping & rolling about like a ninja, whom if dies just returns straight into the fray. Almost like being a kamikaze, just run headlong onto battle, no worries, no cares.

Maybe Rift was onto something, shame they failed to deliver. Food for thought though.

CMF.5461:

Zeldain.5710:

MistyMountains.3751:

Dont support this- sorry but the holy trinity actually required no real tactics what so ever…played many mmos in my life and action oriented combat will always require more skill and teamwork …

Sorry, didn’t realize it was opposites day.

Not having the trinity results in total, chaotic combat with absolutely zero strategy required and no tactics applied. That’s what we have here in GW2 here now.

Team combat is all but non-existent. It’s a joke of an MMO.

Not totally related, but an fps with no combat roles what so ever has tons of strategy and tactics required in order to hold rooms, clear hallways, and reach objectives.

There isn’t a tank, healer, and dps in counter strike but there are tons of strategies in that game if you want to use them (even if most just zerg a spot)

So positioning and team coordination are still around in non-role oriented combat.

Yes, that’s correct. That’s what makes the zerg combat design in GW2 so perplexing.

I agree with this, but not entirely.

I think they should, first of all, find a way to improve their engines so that this game has perfect ‘physics’ in terms of combat (at least show that if you get a high enough end pc, those pays off). And the key success for this game was with how ‘cool’ combat looked since launch; there wasn’t any great teamwork in combat, but people still loved the combat mechanics enough to keep playing the game, although some of those who’ve quit may say otherwise.

The point is… at this point/stage of the GW2’s game development, Anet should decided whether they want to support their on going fan-base or they want to change their philosophy and try to get people back who’ve quit due to a lack of teamwork gameplay in GW2.

Picking to go without the trinity means everyone prioritize themselves first in terms of responsibility, it’s more similar to typical mentality in FPS games (war style gameplay; I mean, in a war you are fighting to survive & kill the enemy more than trying to care about what da heck everyone else is doing, that’s my definition of a war style gameplay). But they should progress upon solo-play if that’s he case.

If they want have a depth teamplay, their current fundamentals within the core combat systems will not work, because players are sold that the responsiblities of others are none of my business (ie. that’s not like in trinity where if the tanks dies, then everyone else can’t do their job).

IMO, this game needs & can only possibility go toward one direction → towards having “newer & funner controllable combat mechanics”. That’s my new-years eve resolution; to stop thinking GW2 like it’s league, because it will never be like anything similar to league. At best, it will have complex synergies in its skill system, but unless they find some way to put others responsibilities on each individual teamates in teamplay… at best, GW2 combat would be like a competitive FPS game.

Galen.9042:

What surprises me is people being so adamant that GW2’s PvE is so radically different to WoW’s. I confess to not seeing that at all. I completely fail to see how “avoid and spank” or “kite and spank” is different to the much maligned “tank and spank”. You could make a strong arguement for the skill required in even a tank and spank encounter is greater than that required for a kite and spank encounter in GW2. In a trinity system, players must manage resources (mana, rage, energy, you name it) whereas GW2 only has energy. You have to manage cooldowns, but you had to do the same thing in WoW for that matter (and many of them were far more gamechanging than the pathetic elite skills most classes have. A well timed innervate could make or break an entire encounter). Trinity requires aggro management, and before 2 dozen people say that tanking changes in WoW made aggro management obsolete, I’m referring to vanilla WoW. I have no experience with anything from BC onwards. GW2 has an aggro system, but I doubt even Stephen Hawking could figure out how it works.

What the tank and spank does is add an actual role in combat, but that approach died about 10 years ago. Games now being multitasking into it. While the tank is holding aggro, he’s paying attention to positioning, the direction mobs are facing… Healers will have to use other utility to keep the dps mobile while helping control the mobs… Damage dealers will be called on for offheals, kiting, etc.

This is why I think the thing this game desperately needs is not so much a trinity, but a niche for each class. Give everyone a reason to be in a group, not just be more damage… Think to WoW when the tank would die and the mage would get a freeze off, and the hunter would try to gather the mobs and kite them while the group killed them off… That’s what way too many of us were thinking the game was going to be when they said no trinity. That idea would work, and a lot more people would like it, even though the person kiting is essentially tanking.

And the support role should do a little more, support.

And the support, control, damage thing, those aren’t roles, that’s just how you play a damage dealer in any MMORPG released in the last 10 years.

tonyl.5063:

Galen.9042:

What surprises me is people being so adamant that GW2’s PvE is so radically different to WoW’s. I confess to not seeing that at all. I completely fail to see how “avoid and spank” or “kite and spank” is different to the much maligned “tank and spank”. You could make a strong arguement for the skill required in even a tank and spank encounter is greater than that required for a kite and spank encounter in GW2. In a trinity system, players must manage resources (mana, rage, energy, you name it) whereas GW2 only has energy. You have to manage cooldowns, but you had to do the same thing in WoW for that matter (and many of them were far more gamechanging than the pathetic elite skills most classes have. A well timed innervate could make or break an entire encounter). Trinity requires aggro management, and before 2 dozen people say that tanking changes in WoW made aggro management obsolete, I’m referring to vanilla WoW. I have no experience with anything from BC onwards. GW2 has an aggro system, but I doubt even Stephen Hawking could figure out how it works.

What the tank and spank does is add an actual role in combat, but that approach died about 10 years ago. Games now being multitasking into it. While the tank is holding aggro, he’s paying attention to positioning, the direction mobs are facing… Healers will have to use other utility to keep the dps mobile while helping control the mobs… Damage dealers will be called on for offheals, kiting, etc.

This is why I think the thing this game desperately needs is not so much a trinity, but a niche for each class. Give everyone a reason to be in a group, not just be more damage… Think to WoW when the tank would die and the mage would get a freeze off, and the hunter would try to gather the mobs and kite them while the group killed them off… That’s what way too many of us were thinking the game was going to be when they said no trinity. That idea would work, and a lot more people would like it, even though the person kiting is essentially tanking.

And the support role should do a little more, support.

And the support, control, damage thing, those aren’t roles, that’s just how you play a damage dealer in any MMORPG released in the last 10 years.

Yes, I think you nailed it.

Instead of having individual responsibilities in a trinity system, let’s revert the thinking and let everyone think of it as maximizing our capabilities by doing both what others are and are NOT doing around us – that’s a new way to look at it, indeed (thx OP).

As my concept of combat mechanics in rpg games has developed with MMOs I went back and played some old school D&D based games (Dragon Lance series on dosbox emulator).

My new found understanding of stats and combat roles was hard to fit into the D&D style of combat. Yes I could have a plate wearing class with more HP and AC than my mage, but that character did not hold agro. There was no agro.

To fight I had to worry about positioning. Fight in doorways, keep squishies in the back. A cleric could only heal a few times and at most it was meager and kept the plate wearers barely alive but still fighting.

Combat in those old D&D games had no real tank/healer/dps, because everyone had to contribute to the damage. Clerics could front line fight as well since they were heavy/medium armor wearers, mages had to get up front but use spells to reduce or avoid damage, and even then you only had so many spells memorized that you couldn’t just stand in the back and cast all day. So often times I had my squishies with slings and bows.

Non-trinity can work, but there has to be a lot of other things involved. A big things is positioning, the next thing is figuring out how to help the players work together and not simply just every man for himself.

What would happen if they forced PC/NPC collisions on and you couldn’t run past a line of enemies nor could they run past you?

Samhayn.2385:

Kausion.9384:

Red Falcon.8257:

Interesting.

As an old person with a certain degree of skill and 20 years of MMO experience, I found WoW PvE -especially the trinity- to be the pinnacle of autopilot easymode watch-tv-while-raiding mess.
GW2 PvE at least require you to dodge and block manually (which is automatic in WoW), requires position/warding/BB to block mobs whereas in WoW it’s a mere calculation (threat) that you build by using threat buttons, is reaction-based while WOW is as easy as “memorize this rotation and do it”.

Blizzard’s simple-minded design of encounters and simplistic, brain-dead combat system that requires no skill makes it seem they are directing their game to kids in the ages 8-12.
I ran all WoW had to offer and everything was terribly easy and straight-forward, whereas in GW2 I found some challenges even in PvE.

See, this is my opinion based on 20 years of experience and I didn’t even need to put it down as a fact as you did which gives it more value and credibility.

Vasham has already shot down this argument that is used often by people like you. I don’t know what your 20 “years of experience” comprised of but it obviously was not serious endgame raiding. To seriously suggest that it is “autopilot easymode” is ludicrous. You are seriously suggesting that players could watch TV and eat while pushing for top kills of Yogg 0-light. Let’s be serious.

Lets be serious like you said. First the type of pve player you speak of those that push for world first etc make up less then 1% of wows player base. Changing a game to fit what they want is huge waste of resources. Also even with the implementation of the looking for raid only about 20% of players in wow do end game raiding. So well pve players do make up the majority of a game raiders do not.

Like has been mentioned before. It is up to you to make a group and define rolls but I will help you. Crit hammer guardians can pretty much face tank a dungeon add in a d/d Elle with +healing gear you now have a tank/healer combo you should from there have your dps players slot abilities that have a cc element to them. With a set up like this and good players that dodge being one shot you should now have a group that feels much like what your used to.

If anything I feel that most of the complaints about pve in this game come from the fact that the game does not hold your hand and tell you what you should do.

Who said anything about world firsts? Seriously, do you guys ever think to go back and reread what you’re saying?

First off, WAY more than 20% of WoW’s population raids. I’d really love to know where you’re getting this information from. Sites like WoW progress track guild completion. So those sites still aren’t counting the pugs, the backup raiders, the people who were benched a night, the alt runs, second guild groups, Raid Finder… The majority of your players in the game do actually do some form of raiding. If you want proof, just log into the game.

WoW also has a population issue that’s going to cause a lot of people not raiding at normal+ difficulty. There’s servers where during prime time, there’s not even 10 people online.

And that’s NOT a combat role. A combat role is where you stand out, where you shine, WHAT YOUR JOB IS. Play any recent MMORPG at a skilled level, and you’ll understand where GW2 is extremely lacking.

Nobody needs hand-holding, the game is way too simple for it. And that’s our complaint, combat is so EASY that it’s boring. Kiting, using utility, moving out of the way… That’s what we’ve all been doing for years. It’s so imprinted into us from games like EQ2 and WoW, that it’s literally just habit now. There’s no challenge, we just do it completely out of habit… Bring something new to the table.

And trinity is basically autopilot? Heroic LK, Yogg-0, heroic Ragneros, would like to have a word with you. But let me guess, you raided in Wrath, did some ICC pugs on 10 man with groups that were already capable of clearing it, and thought that’s what all the content was like.

Oh, and btw, there’s less people raiding now because more people are exploring other parts of the game. And raid finder took a BIG step forward and took a lot of people since now you can raid on your time, and then upgrade that gear to the same level as a normal raid.

But yeah, we’ll just keep assuming that the trinity means the game is a korean grind from the late 90s, not the modern MMOs that take way more skill than this game ever will.

Why is it everyone have to contribute into doing damage is foul?

Please look at a real military squad, they do have different roles but you will never find a role that is not able to deal damage, never… pointman, gunner, medic, squad leader, sniper, marksman everyone is able to kill, and not to mention everyone learned a bit of first aid but of course for the better injured treatment is by medic.

See? Everyone in a squad who is actually within combat perimeter got to fight, and no any role in squad will silly standing still absorb bullets for teammates, gunner is providing suppressing fire to draw attention and pin down enemies (aggro, CC and stay alive), while flanking team hit from the side (anyone who is not being targeted), soldier get injured will take cover, sometimes his buddy will help a bit first aid while waiting for the medic to roll in (a player got to dodge, self heal staying alive until more heal from teammates), thats the teamwork of GW2, everyone support each other while also contribute into doing damage, and thats exactly the reason we enjoy GW2.

What i see is GW2 is actually being an MMO with more modern combat tactics compare to trinity system.

So please Trinity, No.

The difficulty in wow is paying attention and moving when you are told to move. Attack or stop attacking when you are told to, and have enough stats to do the required tanking/healing/dpsing for that fight.

What makes those things hard is organizing 10-25 (or even 40) people to do the right things at the right times. Not that the actions you need to take are difficult, but organizing a large group of people to wake up and pay attention was. As well as the time invested into gearing properly.

I wouldn’t call that skill so much as awareness and time.

CMF.5461:

The difficulty in wow is paying attention and moving when you are told to move. Attack or stop attacking when you are told to, and have enough stats to do the required tanking/healing/dpsing for that fight.

What makes those things hard is organizing 10-25 (or even 40) people to do the right things at the right times. Not that the actions you need to take are difficult, but organizing a large group of people to wake up and pay attention was.

I wouldn’t call that skill so much as awareness.

No, you’ve never done any REAL raiding. The challenge in WoW is that the boss mechanics are punishing of any mistake. So whenever one little detail goes wrong, it’s up to how the rest of the group can react to fix it. Then you know all those abilities you have that you were like “I’m never going to need these” and you didn’t put them on your bar, well part of your challenge is actually using those skills because they DO matter.

Not every fight is just an issue of being choreographed, most of them require a decent amount of personal skill on top of it, some require absolute perfection. You got carried through fights, you have no idea what the rest of the group was doing to make up for you.

An the other guy with the military idea and everyone doing damage. Where the military differs from this game is that synergy between everyone. There’s true teamwork. They’re all doing killing, but they have specific jobs. You don’t send snipers to try to sneak into somewhere to rescue someone, and you don’t send a medic to hide in a mountain and try to kill someone important. GW2 lacks that. In GW2, we’re the zerg from Starcraft… Throw more numbers in until it dies.

The combat mechanics have a ton of potential, but ANet just isn’t touching any of it. They’re making this a single player game with the option to group when it comes to combat. And that’s why I disagree that it’s “more modern combat tactics”. It’s a giant step backwards. We don’t need a trinity, but really step back from the game and look at its combat.

What is so special about combat in this game?

No, you’ve never done any REAL raiding. The challenge in WoW is that the boss mechanics are punishing of any mistake. So whenever one little detail goes wrong, it’s up to how the rest of the group can react to fix it. Then you know all those abilities you have that you were like “I’m never going to need these” and you didn’t put them on your bar, well part of your challenge is actually using those skills because they DO matter

Gotta disagree here. WoW, and others of their ilk is an exercise of selective button mashing for useful skills and never using trash skills ever. Every class in WoW (and others, Im looking at you LOTRO) have a plethora of completely useless skills that are rarely, if ever used. I left WoW because of the unimaginitve style of play. WoW and its brain children are the definition of mindless grinding and pigeonholing characters into roles they can never escape from.

Not every fight is just an issue of being choreographed, most of them require a decent amount of personal skill on top of it, some require absolute perfection

Sorry, I never saw that except maybe on 1 instance.

An the other guy with the military idea and everyone doing damage. Where the military differs from this game is that synergy between everyone. There’s true teamwork. They’re all doing killing, but they have specific jobs. You don’t send snipers to try to sneak into somewhere to rescue someone, and you don’t send a medic to hide in a mountain and try to kill someone important. GW2 lacks that

this i do agree with. I believe that if I spec my ELE for water, in a dungeon, he should be able to do an ok job at keeping the party alive. Same if Im speccing a tank warrior for survivability. I dont really see this yet on GW.

Throw more numbers in until it dies

Its going to be that way when anyone can map shout about The Shatterer or Jormag’s claw. It would be exactly the same if the Lich King or Ragnaros was just wandering about for anyone on the entire server to jump on. I dont see alot of folks saying this about Her Royal Vileness, High Priestess of Dwayna.

Kausion.9384:

Disclaimer: I am a former WoW raider with realm first world top 50-100 kills for 6 straight tiers. You can hate on Blizzard all you want but you can not deny that they masterfully design amazing encounters, something ANet has not come remotely close to.

It’s no different than saying being good at coloring books make you an excellent artist and art critic. WoW PvE is just following along a script. Raiders can easily be replaced with bots and other unskilled manual labor.

Being a WoW raider does not magically make you good at anything other than following orders. Do not use it as a form of qualification for anything other than following orders.

CMF.5461:

The difficulty in wow is paying attention and moving when you are told to move. Attack or stop attacking when you are told to, and have enough stats to do the required tanking/healing/dpsing for that fight.

What makes those things hard is organizing 10-25 (or even 40) people to do the right things at the right times. Not that the actions you need to take are difficult, but organizing a large group of people to wake up and pay attention was. As well as the time invested into gearing properly.

I wouldn’t call that skill so much as awareness and time.

Wait a second here. How is this any different to the PvE in GW2?

The difficulty is paying attention and moving when you are told to move.

You’ve just described virtually every boss in GW2 and most fractals.

Attack or stop attacking when you are told to, and have enough stats to do the required tanking/healing/dpsing for that fight.

GW2 doesn’t have as much of the stop attacking fights (whether that’s a good thing or not, well I don’t know), but stats play a huge role in your effectiveness in PvE, and your stat choice and build even more so. Given that all classes in GW2 are expected to do a bit of tanking, dpsing and healing in each fight, how do stats not impact your effectiveness on that in GW2? I could take your point here if stats in GW2 were meaningless, but they most certainly are not.

What makes those things hard is organizing 10-25 (or even 40) people to do the right things at the right times. Not that the actions you need to take are difficult, but organizing a large group of people to wake up and pay attention was.

So coordinating 40 people to do the right things at the right time isn’t an example of skill, but coordinating 5 people to throw orbs at the right time (Arah) or get through a swamp in 30 seconds (Fractals) is an example of high skill? Sorry, not buying it. The two tasks are identical; it’s just that one requires more people.