In search of meaning.
Too many Waypoints
The first, and single greatest game design flaw GW2 has, is Waypoints.
Or rather, the shear number of them.
They are bloody everywhere, in every single map, and in every corner of them; so that no where is more then a minute or two stroll from anywhere in the world.
This is fine for early game to mid gameplay, as it make getting around and coming back from death easy.
But at end game this has a chilling effect, several in fact.
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The loss of a Journey
Travelling is non-existent.
You never really journey anywhere, ever. Instead you just teleport to anywhere and everywhere and this has several problems with it.
1: The world feels tiny. Even thou Tyria has a lot of landmass, the world feels incredibly small because you don’t spend any real time traversing it.
2: Much of the world is seldom explored and much of the details that Arenanets art team put into it goes largely to waste.
3: Many of the middle maps are completely barren, as no one has any real reason to travel through them.
I remember a employee of Arenanet once saying that they didn’t want to have mounts because people ignore or don’t notice their surrounding when they use them, and given all the little details Arenanet pack into their maps, I can understand that sentiment.
But to then go on to make mounts on steroids, and have everyone zip across the map and the speed of light, flies in the face of this.
One of the strongest memories I have in MMO’s was in Final Fantasy XI, travelling through the desert on Chocobo back with my friend, to get to a port side city so we could take the boat across to another continent.
It took us hours, but we had to do it if we wanted to get there.
It was the journey, the planning, the long run and waiting, the pleasant boat ride with wind blowing through my characters hair, all with witty banter along the way.
That is what ingrained itself in my mind even thou it was totally innocuous at the time. And it happened because the game made us take our time.
Which is precisely what GW2 doesn’t do, it’s all instant gratification, and in the end you lose the journey in the middle. And that doesn’t build memories.
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Trivializing death and victory
The second problem, and arguably the biggest; that is waypoint make dying trivial, and by extension making victory meaningless.
Death in video games it meant to teach you when you’ve made a mistake, so that you can improve and apply your skills over the coarse of a game.
Ever play a game with God Mode on, where it was impossible to die. Would anybody in their right mind say that winning in that sense be considered winning at all? Let alone fun.
Why would it be when the factor of skill, has been entirely removed?
And waypoints do just that. In the majority in situation, even if you do die, you simply waypoint back no more then a minute or two from where you were. (besides WvW)
As a result, death becomes trivial at best, it’s not a penalty, it’s a momentary hiccup; a speed bump.
I remember an Arenanet employee once saying the dying was punishment enough, no need to punish them further. Normally I would agree with you if you were actually punishing players at all, which your not. One minute jog back to where you were is not a punishment, it’s an afternoon stroll.
This becomes painfully evident in so-called world boss events. You cannot lose. It’s practically impossible to be defeated, and I’m pretty certain they don’t even have a bloody lose condition. You can just respawn and charge the boss down over and over again until you win.
All that happens in these events is people show up, and zerg the boss down in a matter of minutes, no thought required.
Show up, collect reward, rinse repeat. End game PvE in a nutshell.
And I for one, find that prospect incredibly dull.
A Difficult solution
So how could we go about fixing this?
Well, there’s your problem, the solution to it at least seems pretty straight forward, however I seriously doubt Anet have any intention of ever doing it mind you.
What needs to happen is there has to be a lot less waypoints, esp in high level zones.
In low level zones, keep them as is. But as you go into increasingly higher level zones, the number of waypoints and their accessibility should decrease proportionally.
And in 70-80 level zones, I honestly think their shouldn’t be a single waypoint, outside of maybe a strategically placed Asuran gate. (Anyone know what the bloody point of these things are? Since they are superseded by waypoints in almost every instance)
But I’d go even further, and add a cooldown to them, maybe as a replacement for coin.
Where as you level up and travel to further distances, the cooldown before you can waypoint again increases.
So at low level, you would only have to wait 30 sec – 1 min, where at level 80 it could be anywhere between 15-30 mins, maybe even longer. Perhaps even death penalty could be rolled into this somehow.
I remember the resurrection shrines working pretty well, why not bring thous back?
However, the general idea should be to force you to leg it should you die, and make it time consuming to get back to an event, if that would even possible to do in time.
This would not only make death greatly more significant then it is currently, as something to be avoided at all cost, but it would also allow Anet to create events around this and actually make them challenging and requiring planning ahead of time.
Because you can’t really build a challenging experience around a system of hordes of players that effectively have God Mode enabled.
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Now that drawback I mentioned. Yeah, I seriously, seriously seriously doubt, that Arenanet will ever do this or really anything close. It’s not unreasonable to think they might do it, but if so I expect we’re going to be waiting years for it, and by then I would have completely lost interest.
Arenanet takes every opportunity to make the game more and more casual. As not to offend or put off anybody, like everybody is special, which is just another way of saying nobody is.
And from a early game content/first impressions point of view, this absolutely makes sense. However, from a end game/retention POV, nothing could be further from the truth.
You want to hold hands of your new players, not you veterans. We really don’t want everything handed to us on a silver platter. (I don’t at least) I personally find it kind of insulting of my intelligence and skill at the game.
But I could be wrong, and Anet could end up doing something with waypoints to make them a little less ubiquitous, but I just find that hard to believe. Their plenty bright and capable, but they seem too obsessed with casual gameplay to actively want to make their game more difficult.
However, there are some exceptions, and it would be unfair not to mention them.
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Challenging content
Want to hear part of GW2 that gets the idea of winning vs losing right?
Jumping Puzzles.
I freaken love jumping puzzles. They will kick you backside the first couple of times you do them until you learn the jumps, in which your skills will notable improve the more you do it. It’s one of the few things I find memorably in this game.
And I hold a certain degree of pride in the fact that I was one of the people who completed the Clocktower jumping puzzle during the Mad King event.
It was difficult, and uncompromising, which made victory all the sweeter when I finally completed it after a couple hours of trying. That’s how you do challenging content.
Mind you the reward for it sucked, and in fact most jumping puzzle rewards still suck.
While Anet have gotten better with their rewards, jump puzzles still haven’t. Maybe you should tie jumping puzzle rewards into the new Achievement system, so we jumpers could get some nice long term rewards. Just saying.
But one of the things that makes jump puzzles so challenging, is that you have to do most of them in one go. If you fall, you have to reset. Period.
Imagine what it would be like if you had waypoints all throughout the puzzle, some in the middle and one at the end.
Wouldn’t that just suck all the fun out of it? What’s the point if you can skip right over the jumping and go straight to reward?
This is what waypoints do for combat and end game challenges.
But it’s not alone in this, oh no, there are other problems as well that double down on the problem.
Resurrection
The second culprit in the erosion of end game, is the Revival system.
By in large it’s great. Allowing anyone to revive anyone else really does a lot to bring the community of GW2 together, and I wholeheartedly support this. A+
But it has one flaw. Reviving somebody during combat is completely broken.
And to clarify, I am specifically talking about reviving defeated players, not downed players. Reviving downed players during combat makes perfect sense, but not when defeated.
On your own, death work perfectly well, waypoints not withstanding.
But in groups, esp massive zerg-fests, having everybody revive you right in the middle of battle only serves to further obliterate any and all challenge there might have once been.
This again become painfully obvious during world boss events, as no one can die. You just keep getting revived over and over again by the hordes of players, and the enemies 9 times out of 10 just can’t keep up, not without also having to have ridiculously overpowered attacks in order to overcome that imbalance.
I’m reminded of the pre-nerf Fire Elemental, ya’know the one who aoe one-shot you, so if you went to revive you were almost certainly going to die. Yeah, that one.
And that was no fun for anybody, it was a chore to fight and incredibly frustrating.
So either the attacks a too weak and nobody stays down, or it’s way too powerful and everyone gets murdered. It sucks either way.
I think the simple answer to address this problem is similar to what was done in dungeons, ie preventing anyone who is in combat from reviving a defeated player.
Downed sure, but not defeated. This would make death much more final and consequential, and also hopefully allow Arenanet to create engagements that aren’t a complete pushover, or ridiculously broken.
And players would actually have to put a little bit of effort into not dying.
Reward structure
The third and final problem I have with PvE at least, is the way rewards are structured.
Why on earth do you have Bronze – Silver – Gold, when the default is always Gold?
Seriously, you just bloody show up and boom, Gold. The bar between them is so low, as to be trivial. Part of this is due to the waypoint and rez systems as I mentioned before, but honestly it makes no bloody sense.
I mean it sounds good in theory, but in practice almost every event shells out Gold like it’s going out of fashion. I almost never get Bronze, even if I show up at last minute and rightly should. I far more often then not get nothing at all, then Bronze.
And Silver is just as rare. The problem is that there is not clear distinction between them, you almost always get gold for mere participation, saying nothing for the level of participation or any degree of skill on your part.
Rather one should have to work hard for Gold, and Bronze be the default. In fact there should be clear and unambiguous requirements for Gold/Silver/Bronze that are stated from the outset as you go into an event, like a score to keep track of how well your doing.
So that you know exactly what it takes to get which level of reward.
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Further more, the amount and quality of your rewards should be much more distinct.
Currently you rewarded for everything, even failure.
Speaking of which, failure should not reward as much as it does. Sure some, maybe 10%, but certainly not the 30-50% it is currently. You don’t get rewarded if you fall off a jumping puzzle onto your face, you shouldn’t get rewarded here.
Bronze should be the default, 100% reward. Entry level, show up and participate the minimal amount. Basically what Gold is now.
Silver could be 125% reward, and a chance to get a better loot drop. This should require you to go a little above and beyond. For example, Bears invade, kill X number of Bears and/or at least 1-2 of the Veteran Bears, score X amount of points, etc.
Gold could be 150% reward, and a much higher chance for rare loot, and possibly some other currency or cumulative reward, perhaps achievement based.
This should be much more difficult, and not only require participation from start to end, but also the inclusion of special conditions for clearing.
For example, collecting dwavern artifacts from the bottom of the ocean. Not only clearing the requirements for both Bronze and Silver, but in addition grabbing a special artifact guarded by a Champion Broodmother Drake.
In short, Bronze should be for participation.
Silver should be for going above and beyond.
Gold should be a serious test of your skills.
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Not to brag, but FFXIV gets this right, or more so.
Getting Gold in FATE events is hard, you really have to put effort in, far more so if your under leveled. Honestly the game seems to rejoice in wiping the floor with you, and making you work for your reward, which at this point is a refreshing change.
Long story short, the reward structure for events needs to be overhauled.. It’s a bit of a crapshoot atm.
However, to give credit where credit is due.
A: The new Achievement system is awesome, and rewards feel proportional to effort.
B: Giving everyone separate rewards, as in GW1, is still one of the single best features of the game. Nobody likes to fight of who gets what.
My only little wishlist is to hope that Jumping Puzzles get achievement specific rewards, because they are just under served atm. I want a nice pair of boots. And maybe some wings, because I can already fly.
WvW woes
That’s enough of PvE, I do spend sometime in WvW, and honestly it’s not that much better.
Fortunately both the waypoint and revival problems a greatly lessened here, so death has more meaning. But not much more, which gets to my first problem.
WvW maps are too small. Like way too small.
Everything is little more then a short skip from each other, and even if you wipe your opponent out, they are right back before you can sneeze. This is one of a couple of elements that lends into the very zerg minded gameplay in WvW.
And in my experience, zerging around from one location to the next is incredibly tedious. And being able to bumrush a location over and over again because of short run distances doesn’t help in that regard.
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But it’s not only problem, but also that there aren’t enough terrain features built into the map to make it interesting. Sure there are a few ledges a slopes here an there, but not much. The lion share of the map is pretty flat and straight paths, with no key locations or terrain to exploit.
Which only makes the capture locations stand out as bizarrely misplaced. All the building and locations on the map, have no positional relevancy what so ever.
You need take a position because you need it for anything, other then to gain points.
It’s not like you are taking a keep or a tower as to open up a route of attack or re-enforcement point, esp since there is nothing stopping you from just directly running to any point on the map.
This lowers the utility of said building to little then points to be gained, they serve no other value. You know what that is, it’s a glorified game of capture the flag.
And boy, does that get repetitive.
What’s worse, is that the building themselves have only one real strategic point to work towards, that that’s the lords room. And so naturally everyone just mindlessly zergs to that every time.
So overall, the mechanics of WvW seem to built with zerg rushing everything as the optimal go-to strategy, as it just lacks depth and strategic importance.
WvW Wishlist
As for what I would like to see.
First, I’d like to see the maps be larger if at all possible, like 3-4 times the size.
Even if populations stay the same, I’d like to have more ground to cover to get from A to B.
However, even should the overall size not increase much, what I’d also like to see is large terrain features that make direct travel impossible, or require capture of key locations in order to do. This also mean making the maps asymmetrical in nature.
Such as having a shear cliff across the middle of the map, and in the center of that being a keep or a garrison. So if you want a direct path to the north, you have to take it, which requires since it’s position is entrenched and easily defensible, one or more of the towers dotting it’s outer perimeter, and a prolonged siege.
However, there are two indirect paths you can take. One is to climb the cliff jumping puzzle style, dodging enemies and gusts of wind that will knock you off to your death, and once your on top you still have to traverse a fridge wasteland with monsters and periodic blizzards that will freeze you to death if you don’t find the few pockets of shelter, or capture one of the towers along the way.
(The blizzard could work just like Jormag’s breath, that will kill you if you stay in it for too long, building a larger dot stack the more your exposed)
The second path is underground, through a pitch black cavern full of monsters and traps, which can be activated by thou’s in the garrison/keep from otherwise unobtainable high gound. Having to navigate your way with only a torch to see, which gives away your position.
Both paths are dangerous and take time to traverse, but are the only way to get to the north without taking the garrison/keep at the base of the cliff.
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It’s this kind of stuff I want to do. Traversing a dangerous land in order to accomplish my mission, over thin ledges and windy heights, through pitch black caves and frozen wastelands. All this in order to accomplish a greater goal, this I want from my WvW experience, not just facerolling the keyboard all afternoon.
However I want it to go one step further. Not only should the map as a whole be larger and have clear terrain features, but as to should keeps/garrisons and all the other capture points.
Even once you bash down the doors or walls, there should be multiple objectives to go for. For example a keep would have:
A Lord’s room.
Control center for all the traps throughout.
Armory to upgrade guards with equipment for a period of time, and equip players with a bundle weapon(s) that are ideal for defending in a confined space, and help leveled up players compete more evenly while in base. (only works while in the keep)
A Cafeteria, which dispense food buffs for players, and can be used to buff guards for a period of time.
Several Guard Posts, locations the give aoe buffs to guards and players that stand within them, and act as a spawning point for guards. (maybe)
The idea is that each point in the keep would have it’s own point association.
Say, Lords=50, Control Center=25, Armory=15, Cafeteria=15, Guard Post(x6)=5.
Like sPvP, capturing a location grants a given amount of points every so often, and after a set period of time, whoever has over the required amount flips the structure in their favor.
However, even if you flip the keep, any position still held by the enemy remains theirs.
It’s just that they points that structure grants the server changes hands.
This also means an entrenched defending force can hold onto an area within the keep and keep the fight raging, even if the enemy flipped it. Which is where all sorts of tactics and strategy comes into play.
This would be esp more so, if more of the building were under cover, with hallways and narrow corridors, traps and doors, and maybe even the odd secret passage way.
So it takes a lot more effort then just rushing in with force overwhelming, as is the status quo now.
In other words, build them with the idea that using nothing but force, is a bad strategy.
But also, with the idea in mind that players defending these locations have something they can actively do besides deploying siege during periods when your not under attack.
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Currently there is just nothing to do when your not currently under attack besides run supply. Some activities could be having mini events, such as taking food rations from the cafeteria to several npc guards that don’t yet have the food buff, which improves their damage and defense, a gives the food runner some standard reward exp/karma/gold.
Another is the armory, pretty much the same deal. Perhaps other little events like gathering materials to create golems that will patrol the area, and setting their route and maybe accompanying them.
The Control Center could sometimes require you to check and maintain traps.
All sorts of little things so that a handful of people who are stuff on defense duty have something to keep them occupied, while also providing a benefit to the defense of the structure.
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Signing out
Overall that about it.
Bigger, larger structures, better terrain, more stuff to do, greater strategic impotence, less zerg.
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So for now I’m done, I’m off to craft meaning from meaninglessness.
I hope that upon my return, I will find a more meaningful experience awaiting me here.
I think if they turned this game into something you’d like to play, I’d probably leave it.
Lots of words…you could have used 1…burnout…
That’s what you have.
If Anet altered the game to your wishes 100,000’s of players would stop playing.
Good job you don’t make/design games for a living…
I’m not particularly sure I understand how any of these proposed problems and suggested solutions have anything to do with “meaningful” gameplay. It’s a video game. It isn’t supposed to mean that much to you. When it does, that isn’t meaning. It’s an addiction. What it should be is just an escape from life’s woes.
As for your propositions, a few things stand out. (I admit, I skimmed it. If I want to read a book, I’ll pull out a book)
I wholeheartedly disagree that there are too many waypoints. I feel there are just enough to get to where you want to go, without it being too convenient. Exploration is a novelty best served fresh. Once you have done it, it isn’t exactly a treat to repeat it. Back tracking to content you have already visited just to get from point A to B is incredibly tedious and time consuming.
As for your death penalty argument, which coincides with waypoints, I partly agree. I agree about the world bosses. They have become a novelty and something of a joke of their original grand design. These days they have become nothing but overglorified loot pinatas and it saddens me to see how meaningless they are. However, the death penalty I do not have a problem with. Despite having my waypoints, I still feel the need to preserve my life as best as I can. I still do often need to run a bit back to the fight after my demise. It is actually quite rare for me to die right on top of a waypoint and even if I did, it is pretty much always contested. The corpse run is not completely phased out. It just isn’t a marathon as it was back in vanilla WoW (I’m looking at your old RFK corpse run. Freaking Barrens…)
As for you wanting WvW maps to be even larger, Is ee really no point in it. Nor do I really see much of an argument for it to even be necessary. I do, however have somewhat of a problem with there being 4 separate maps. I feel the server owned borderlands have become a relic of their original design and need to be retooled. They just seem arbitrary now and often completely abandoned.
(edited by LinkR.6190)
wow I’m surprised there wasn’t a single reply in favor of op’s post. i read it all thinking “yea that’s pretty much how I feel” and thought he laid out some reasonable criticisms and possible solutions. the game needs to be more challenging and punish mistakes more. otherwise the victories are meaningless. i can’t say anything about the wvw section though, since I don’t play it.
wow I’m surprised there wasn’t a single reply in favor of op’s post. i read it all thinking “yea that’s pretty much how I feel” and thought he laid out some reasonable criticisms and possible solutions. the game needs to be more challenging and punish mistakes more. otherwise the victories are meaningless. i can’t say anything about the wvw section though, since I don’t play it.
A certain type of player plays games for challenge. But then, what’s more popular, slot machines or chess? Chess is more challenging but more people play slot machines. Why? Because people require different things out of games.
I don’t mind occasionally challenging content, but I’ve already done the hard yards. I’m older. Life was challenging enough for many, many years. Now, when I sit down to entertainment myself (and make no mistake, games are a form of entertainment), I want to relax, not be frustrated, not bang my head against wall. I just want to have a good time.
For many people games are an alternative to TV or movies or books. They’re something to enjoy. Not everyone desires the same level of challenge in their down time.
Incredible summary, and one the developer should pay close attention to. You are not alone — by a long shot — in your feelings.
The free weekend should be an indication they need more players. Not enough meat on the hones to count on retention enough, IMO.
wow I’m surprised there wasn’t a single reply in favor of op’s post. i read it all thinking “yea that’s pretty much how I feel” and thought he laid out some reasonable criticisms and possible solutions. the game needs to be more challenging and punish mistakes more. otherwise the victories are meaningless. i can’t say anything about the wvw section though, since I don’t play it.
A certain type of player plays games for challenge. But then, what’s more popular, slot machines or chess? Chess is more challenging but more people play slot machines. Why? Because people require different things out of games.
I don’t mind occasionally challenging content, but I’ve already done the hard yards. I’m older. Life was challenging enough for many, many years. Now, when I sit down to entertainment myself (and make no mistake, games are a form of entertainment), I want to relax, not be frustrated, not bang my head against wall. I just want to have a good time.
For many people games are an alternative to TV or movies or books. They’re something to enjoy. Not everyone desires the same level of challenge in their down time.
i thought it was funny you compared chess against a soul-sucking gambling addiction machine. feels like an appropriate metaphor for gw2.
Lots of words…you could have used 1…burnout…
That’s what you have.
He gave many great and specific reasons that are totally unrelated to burnout. There are design flaws that, when compounded together, remove the desire to play the game. It’s a real problem.
wow I’m surprised there wasn’t a single reply in favor of op’s post. i read it all thinking “yea that’s pretty much how I feel” and thought he laid out some reasonable criticisms and possible solutions. the game needs to be more challenging and punish mistakes more. otherwise the victories are meaningless. i can’t say anything about the wvw section though, since I don’t play it.
A certain type of player plays games for challenge. But then, what’s more popular, slot machines or chess? Chess is more challenging but more people play slot machines. Why? Because people require different things out of games.
I don’t mind occasionally challenging content, but I’ve already done the hard yards. I’m older. Life was challenging enough for many, many years. Now, when I sit down to entertainment myself (and make no mistake, games are a form of entertainment), I want to relax, not be frustrated, not bang my head against wall. I just want to have a good time.
For many people games are an alternative to TV or movies or books. They’re something to enjoy. Not everyone desires the same level of challenge in their down time.
I’m almost certain you do not represent the market segment that is core to this genre, and GW2 specifically. Players are driven by overcoming challenges, which means things have to be difficult so they have something to progress toward. But what you think is difficult vs. other players is where the road divides.
Off topic but related, the current trend is to make MMO combat more “action-y.” GW2, TERA, WildStar, ESO… I don’t believe this is the right way to do it. The challenge and difficulty in rules-based combat should come from knowing how to build your character, not knowing how to twitch him around a screen. Every other genre will always do that better.
So in one sense I relate to what you are saying, but I believe GW2 is the wrong game for you to be saying it in.
wow I’m surprised there wasn’t a single reply in favor of op’s post. i read it all thinking “yea that’s pretty much how I feel” and thought he laid out some reasonable criticisms and possible solutions. the game needs to be more challenging and punish mistakes more. otherwise the victories are meaningless. i can’t say anything about the wvw section though, since I don’t play it.
A certain type of player plays games for challenge. But then, what’s more popular, slot machines or chess? Chess is more challenging but more people play slot machines. Why? Because people require different things out of games.
I don’t mind occasionally challenging content, but I’ve already done the hard yards. I’m older. Life was challenging enough for many, many years. Now, when I sit down to entertainment myself (and make no mistake, games are a form of entertainment), I want to relax, not be frustrated, not bang my head against wall. I just want to have a good time.
For many people games are an alternative to TV or movies or books. They’re something to enjoy. Not everyone desires the same level of challenge in their down time.
I’m almost certain you do not represent the market segment that is core to this genre, and GW2 specifically. Players are driven by overcoming challenges, which means things have to be difficult so they have something to progress toward. But what you think is difficult vs. other players is where the road divides.
Off topic but related, the current trend is to make MMO combat more “action-y.” GW2, TERA, WildStar, ESO… I don’t believe this is the right way to do it. The challenge and difficulty in rules-based combat should come from knowing how to build your character, not knowing how to twitch him around a screen. Every other genre will always do that better.
So in one sense I relate to what you are saying, but I believe GW2 is the wrong game for you to be saying it in.
Action-y combat in MMOs has been around a while. Probably because the old method of “stand still and press keys” is much simpler and less entertaining. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a fan of many games that involved the “stand there” method, but it makes games get boring quick, sometimes even faster than GW2 gets boring.
Also keep in mind that when players like you or the OP feel the game is too easy, you’re asking for difficulty to be raised for all players just because some feel it’s not hard enough. No offense, but no player is entitled to an easier game and no player is entitled to a more difficult game. GW2 was designed to have sections of the game available for both. If Dungeons/Fractals/WvW/PvP are insufficient as the ‘difficult’ portions of the game, then by all means request and suggest improvements or additions in that area.
But to blanket say 100% of the game “needs” to be more difficult for 100% of the players even though not 100% of the players feel that way? Nope. Sorry. You and I don’t get to dictate to other people that what they enjoy is the “wrong” way to play the game (unless it goes against obvious design intent ala Ember farms etc).
i agree with Vayne on this.
i think challenging content is overrated… everybody ask for challenging content but than when it arrives nobody does it or very few, unless it is solo content…
about wp and high level maps if you notice they are always contested so often you have to run miles before you can be back to the fight. an example of this are the temple events. especially grenth you really have only one uncontested wp and it is miles away.
same in southsun, and guess what? southsun and cursed shore are deserted places and cursed shore it is still exploited for farming more than for its challenging content.
i much rather prefer entertainment than be challenged, especially when like in the queen gauntlet challenged means not be able to see when to dodge cause i’m colorblind and the rings are red on a red ground!! that means that the challenge does not depend on my skill but on luck, and there is nothing challenging in luck. or when challenge can be beaten only with some classes rather than every available class, example subject 7 achievement requirement it can be done easily by a thief or a rifle warrior… every other class is just crippled because most of their attack are aoe. and if you don’t care for that requirement is not challenging at all even with 5 gambits on.
although i agree on wvwvw, as it is now, it is the basic tpvp that we have but in a large scale, there is no real reason to capture a point other than points. and killing players it’s just useless because they’ll be back in no time, siege and defend can lasts hours because of this and after a while wvwvw it’s just that and it is boring for me too (in fact i avoid it).
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As both a raging fanboy, and a Guild Wars veteran, what ultimately kills it for me is how unbelievably casual the game is. Everything is handed to you on a silver platter, you hardly have to work for anything; just show up and your rewarded no matter how badly you do, and often times it is impossible to lose, and if you cannot lose, victory is meaningless.
So, you’re already fractal level 80? Then there’s a tournament coming up. One that rewards you with real money. Still meaningless for you?
I don’t do much WvW at all but I can comment on the PvE side of your argument.
Difficulty: everyone measures it using a different yardstick, but you need to remember that GW2 caters to casuals, not the hardcore players. You may find the game too easy, but Im on the edge of my seat everytime I face down against Lupi and victory dance around the room when I finally beat him. And he’s not even the hardest boss in the game.
Waypoints: it’s fun travelling around the world finding stuff the first few times around, but after travelling the same road 50 times, it’s more like being stuck in the car on the way to work than fantasy tourism.
Death: this one I do agree with you on, but it’s a kitten hard choice. For example, the Karka event punished dying relatively severely, but look at how popular that event is.
Action-y combat in MMOs has been around a while. Probably because the old method of “stand still and press keys” is much simpler and less entertaining. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a fan of many games that involved the “stand there” method, but it makes games get boring quick, sometimes even faster than GW2 gets boring.
Also keep in mind that when players like you or the OP feel the game is too easy, you’re asking for difficulty to be raised for all players just because some feel it’s not hard enough. No offense, but no player is entitled to an easier game and no player is entitled to a more difficult game. GW2 was designed to have sections of the game available for both. If Dungeons/Fractals/WvW/PvP are insufficient as the ‘difficult’ portions of the game, then by all means request and suggest improvements or additions in that area.
But to blanket say 100% of the game “needs” to be more difficult for 100% of the players even though not 100% of the players feel that way? Nope. Sorry. You and I don’t get to dictate to other people that what they enjoy is the “wrong” way to play the game (unless it goes against obvious design intent ala Ember farms etc).
Difficulty is a relative thing, but in and of itself it can also be a confusing term. It’s different than challenging… Achieving a goal can be challenging without being difficult. I think GW2 has more “difficulty” for a certain type of player than “challenge.”
define hardcore players please, because i play hours and hours every day like an hardcore player and i still don’t love challenging content and prefer entertainment…
so when you say that guild wars 2 cater to casual, what does exactly mean? because i would define myself as casual player but in truth i’m not since i spend more time in game than in real life (and that would be hardcore)… but everytime they add useless difficulty to the game because teenagers cry in a corner for difficulty i rage (ac should be the easiest dungeon designe for lv 35 character but it is not anymore… why?)
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define hardcore players please, because i play hours and hours every day like an hardcore player and i still don’t love challenging content and prefer entertainment…
so when you say that guild wars 2 cater to casual, what does exactly mean? because i would define myself as casual player but in truth i’m not since i spend more time in game than in real life (and that would be hardcore)… but everytime they add useless difficulty to the game because teenagers cry in a corner for difficulty i rage (ac should be the easiest dungeon designe for lv 35 character but it is not anymore… why?)
I think he summed it up pretty well… “as long as you show up, you are rewarded.” It’s that aspect of the casual approach I think he’s talking about.
That means there’s very little value to actually receiving a reward or achievement, which in turn erodes the drive to play. Human nature.
Now, the trick is to get the right kind of difficulty on the path to the rewards… skill based, time past, grind based, etc. That’s the point of contention. Some people want more challenging combat. Some people would like more social group play, etc.
I started reading this thinking I would disagree with most of it, but the only thing I don’t really like is decreased waypoints- And even that I’m on the fence on. I love exploring, but I hate doing it knowing I can die in an area, having to walk ALL the way back (which could take from a few minutes to a few hours) just to continue exploring. That’s one of the main reasons I stop playing MMO’s, because sometimes they feel like they punish exploring. Waypoints, to me, decreases the annoying backtracking problem in most MMO’s. To me. However, I would not complain if they came out with more challenging areas with less waypoints.
Coming from a casual player, this game is… a little too easy. I love how the game is skill based and not focused on who has the best gear. But where’s the content to challenge those skills? There isn’t much. And it DOES put us casual players a little too level with the hardcore.
One thing I would like to see is unlockable skills for classes. Skills that you get by completing REALLY challenging content. Like a dungeon who’s bosses can’t be beat with an unorganized, inexperienced PUG group. Or increasingly hard jumping puzzles, or even make them into skill challenges like we see on the map. These skills you gain wouldn’t be game breaking, and would mean nothing to a player that doesn’t know their class, but to someone who really knew how their class worked, it would be a godsend.
And I agree with event medals being too easy as well. When I first started, I joined an event against a champion. I got downed twice, only got a few hits in, and still got gold. At first I thought it was a bug… then I got used to the game and realized that, no, the medals are pretty much meaningless.
One suggestion I’ve been seeing lately is putting champ bags as event awards for successfully completing an event that involved killing champs, but you ONLY got the reward if the event was successful. This, in response to the invasion farming we’ve seen a lot lately. Well why not make it so you only got the full amount of bags on gold? And then make gold much harder to get for events like that? It would sort of fix the farming problem AND make you want to strive for the best.
Overall, I think the game areas that exist now should stay as they are. There’s plenty of content for people who only want to relax and play- and for beginners, too. But even I, who avoids most challenging content, would like to see more areas that are difficult to handle. It’s not like anyone will be FORCED to go into these areas, so people who don’t want a challenge can’t complain. The game has tons of content for casual players already.
Too many Waypoints
The first, and single greatest game design flaw GW2 has, is Waypoints.
Or rather, the shear number of them.They are bloody everywhere, in every single map, and in every corner of them; so that no where is more then a minute or two stroll from anywhere in the world.
This is fine for early game to mid gameplay, as it make getting around and coming back from death easy.But at end game this has a chilling effect, several in fact.
This is where I stopped reading. I hated redoing maps in GW1 again and again and again and yes, wps are a problem in the end game – the fact that there’s not enough of them. Ever been to Orr? Especially straits of devastation? There’s about 2 wps in the whole zone that are normally not contested. If you die somewhere while exploring, prepare to faceplant into your desk in rage. I don’t think that the game should force you to be so careful that it wouldn’t be fun and I don’t think that people should spend 20 minutes getting back to the spot just to try again.
And there’s plenty of journey if you want there to be. Yesterday I ran from metrica province to the gates of arah on a level 2 character with 7 other people. It took us 5 hours that.
i can understand a lot of points…
there is only one thing i don’t get. where are these players that want to do challenging content?
if cof p1 is the most farmed dungeon and arah p4 is impossible to find a group to run it, what does it tell you about who likes what?
as far as i can see people don’t want challenging content, people want more loot and easy to obtain. in fact cursed shore is farmed not for the challenge but because there are exploitable events and southsun is a desert island, have a look in the timer when was last time defeated the karka queen in your server and tell me.
so this is why when people ask for challenging content i’m sure they really are asking for a different kind of entertainment and they don’t really want a challenge or they want it only if we are “forced” to do it all together as it was for the karka queen when they added it.
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wow I’m surprised there wasn’t a single reply in favor of op’s post. i read it all thinking “yea that’s pretty much how I feel” and thought he laid out some reasonable criticisms and possible solutions. the game needs to be more challenging and punish mistakes more. otherwise the victories are meaningless. i can’t say anything about the wvw section though, since I don’t play it.
A certain type of player plays games for challenge. But then, what’s more popular, slot machines or chess? Chess is more challenging but more people play slot machines. Why? Because people require different things out of games.
I don’t mind occasionally challenging content, but I’ve already done the hard yards. I’m older. Life was challenging enough for many, many years. Now, when I sit down to entertainment myself (and make no mistake, games are a form of entertainment), I want to relax, not be frustrated, not bang my head against wall. I just want to have a good time.
For many people games are an alternative to TV or movies or books. They’re something to enjoy. Not everyone desires the same level of challenge in their down time.
i thought it was funny you compared chess against a soul-sucking gambling addiction machine. feels like an appropriate metaphor for gw2.
I could have used farmville for that matter. No challenge, but kitten popular. Most people want to escape. Life is challenging enough.
And yes, some people really do want challenge, but I’m not thinking they’re the majority.
Too many Waypoints
The first, and single greatest game design flaw GW2 has, is Waypoints.
Or rather, the shear number of them.They are bloody everywhere, in every single map, and in every corner of them; so that no where is more then a minute or two stroll from anywhere in the world.
This is fine for early game to mid gameplay, as it make getting around and coming back from death easy.But at end game this has a chilling effect, several in fact.
This is where I stopped reading. I hated redoing maps in GW1 again and again and again and yes, wps are a problem in the end game – the fact that there’s not enough of them. Ever been to Orr? Especially straits of devastation? There’s about 2 wps in the whole zone that are normally not contested. If you die somewhere while exploring, prepare to faceplant into your desk in rage. I don’t think that the game should force you to be so careful that it wouldn’t be fun and I don’t think that people should spend 20 minutes getting back to the spot just to try again.
And there’s plenty of journey if you want there to be. Yesterday I ran from metrica province to the gates of arah on a level 2 character with 7 other people. It took us 5 hours that.
Here’s the thing… they’re not “re-doing maps” – you are traversing a world that is supposed to feel like a place. It’s supposed to mean something to have to go from point A to point B… it’s supposed to give you a sense of place.
That’s a single player or GW1 mentality. For an open persistent world, waypoints were a huge mistake.
one thing that annoyed me the most in lotro for example was that even if you had horses and even ai horses that run you from a to b, it took ages to go everywhere and it was annoying… deadly annoying and the teleport skills were limited and you could use most of them every 1 hour… boring…
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Just another thought. We don’t need to get rid of waypoints and force people to travel. We need to make people feel like there’s a point to not use waypoints sometimes.
Basically, dynamic events. The infrastructure is there already: we have hundreds of them. Anet needs to now balance their payouts. If I could get the same amount of loot traveling on foot from DR to LA than I would in that time farming champions in CS, I would travel from DR to LA anyday.
Here’s the thing… they’re not “re-doing maps” – you are traversing a world that is supposed to feel like a place. It’s supposed to mean something to have to go from point A to point B… it’s supposed to give you a sense of place.
That’s a single player or GW1 mentality. For an open persistent world, waypoints were a huge mistake.
what do you mean it was to mean something? In no MMO has traveling ever meant anything. The only difference was whether it was annoying or not.
GW1 I found to be a completely different mentality – oh you have to log out or you died? Well sorry, you lost pretty much all your progress. That’s not how a casual MMO should work.
Here’s the thing… they’re not “re-doing maps” – you are traversing a world that is supposed to feel like a place. It’s supposed to mean something to have to go from point A to point B… it’s supposed to give you a sense of place.
That’s a single player or GW1 mentality. For an open persistent world, waypoints were a huge mistake.
what do you mean it was to mean something? In no MMO has traveling ever meant anything. The only difference was whether it was annoying or not.
GW1 I found to be a completely different mentality – oh you have to log out or you died? Well sorry, you lost pretty much all your progress. That’s not how a casual MMO should work.
What was worse in Guild Wars 1 was fighting your way through hard mode to get to a dungeon, and then realizing you didn’t have the quest to start it, so you had to teleport back to an outpost and start all over. lol
i can understand a lot of points…
there is only one thing i don’t get. where are these players that want to do challenging content?
if cof p1 is the most farmed dungeon and arah p4 is impossible to find a group to run it, what does it tell you about who likes what?
as far as i can see people don’t want challenging content, people want more loot and easy to obtain. in fact cursed shore is farmed not for the challenge but because there are exploitable events and southsun is a desert island, have a look in the timer when was last time defeated the karka queen in your server and tell me.
so this is why when people ask for challenging content i’m sure they really are asking for a different kind of entertainment and they don’t really want a challenge or they want it only if we are “forced” to do it all together as it was for the karka queen when they added it.
these people are doing lev48 fotm daily knowing reward in there is none existent.
Fact: every Thief tells you to “l2p” when the subject is to nerf stealth.
OP you complain about the game being tedious, boring, dull, yet you want wvw maps x4 larger so you spend 50% of your play time running from A to B (thats the definition of dull tbh) or doing jumping puzzles/killing mobs and searching for caves to get cover from blizzards. Really ? Keep that in PvE, not a place for that in wvw.
About pve waypoints, first you need to discover the waypoints – thats your journey, dont need to travel all the maps again the 2nd or 3rd time, its not as good as the 1st time, you have already made your discovery of that area and making that journey again would be boring and a waste of time.
I agree with the pve content being easy cuz of reviving/zerging/waypoints and rewards being bad, but then again jumping puzzles are not challenging imo, only clocktower+aetherblade and maybe 1 more were actually hard.
My end game is and has always been PvP in games, here its spvp and wvw with achievements/living story and acquiring desired skins on the side.
I found the leveling experience awesome, but as for running around for hours and doing events and consider it as end game…well….no.
From your post I honestly think youd be better off playing a game like elder scrolls lol.
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I’m not particularly sure I understand how any of these proposed problems and suggested solutions have anything to do with “meaningful” gameplay. It’s a video game. It isn’t supposed to mean that much to you. When it does, that isn’t meaning. It’s an addiction. What it should be is just an escape from life’s woes.
As for your propositions, a few things stand out. (I admit, I skimmed it. If I want to read a book, I’ll pull out a book)
Life’s woes? Is life so bad that you go to GW2 to escape it? I am playing GW2 because it’s fun, just as I play soccer because it’s fun or go for a jog or talk with a friend or watch a movie.
Other than that I am surprised that the threadmaker share pretty much the same opinions as me. I have made a thread about that I think it’s too many waypoints in the game, removing the adventurous feeling and difficulty. I have also made a thread about that I think the rewards for the quests are weird/“broken” when you get gold reward for just being around.
GW2 is a hack ‘n slash-game, since you can teleport from everywhere and you don’t lose anything by dying which means you don’t have to think when you play the game. And that’s boring. Cause if it’s tidious (spelling?) and punishing to die, you will make sure you don’t. That means you will plan more and concentrate more when you attack something.
This isn’t the game for you OP.
One day I shall read that entire post… one day…
Fully agree with OP +1000
Try heading to Orr. It’s the desolate place, and the only thing out of tune with it is the level of rewards – but that disparity is present within the LS, as balancing rewards so that players will do the LS, but at the same time have the old rewards not clashing with the rest of the content, is hard – and even very, very, complicated to do. On the other flip sides it’s a place where most WPs are contested, and the only way to uncontest it is to do the events blocking it.
Also, do lore explorations. There are lots of little things in the map that get zipped around by players. Try playing the game as a role-playing game, where you put yourself in your character’s shoes, or explore the small things. There’s a certain satisfaction seeing them without having guides on.
Perfect! Everything you mentioned was spot on and I’d definitely come back if they implemented any one of these great ideas. Anet needs to listen to this, because I feel like this game does nothing to immerse me whatsoever. I especially like the reduced waypoints, because that would definitely make it feel more rewarding. I agree 100%
[~Galtrix~] [~Level 80 Elementalist~] [~GoM~]
A certain type of player plays games for challenge. But then, what’s more popular, slot machines or chess? Chess is more challenging but more people play slot machines. Why? Because people require different things out of games.
- I think ‘challenge’ here has positive connotation. What the OP is saying that just showing up on an event doesn’t feel rewarding for him personally, yet the events give outlandish rewards to just about everybody. It’s like the developers are saying: “Oh we’re so happy that you’re still playing with us even after these months, here have a cookie”. At the absence of gameplay value they bring about more and more rewards with content updates. The WvW section is something that I think game improvement is about: adding depth and meaning. You may not agree with the specifics, but surely you recognize the thought process OP has?
THANK YOU for this post. THANK you.