Indomitable => control builds useless

Indomitable => control builds useless

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Posted by: Combatter.5123

Combatter.5123

The legendary foes within Crown Pavilion have this buff on them:

“Indomitable : Cannot be blinded, chilled, crippled, immobilized, knocked down, launched, or pushed back. Cannot be removed”

Have ArenaNet thought about what this leaves for the rare kind of player that doesn’t want to go all out damage? They are even immune to stun and daze despite this not being mentioned in the buff

So this means that the “damage, control, support” idea becomes “damage, support” or should I say “damage, damage, damage, damage, damage, and support”?

:-(

Maetheryl Thorswood (Ranger), Bennish (Guardian), Lex Sabre (Elementalist)
Tyria, Underworld

(edited by Combatter.5123)

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Posted by: Yargesh.4965

Yargesh.4965

You don’t try to control the adds that spawn while you damage the champ?

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Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

Support might actually be useful because I see people dying on Shrek.

Control can help wipe out adds, at least? I guess?

Nalhadia – Kaineng

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Posted by: Aegis.9724

Aegis.9724

Do control builds even exist in the first place in gw2 pve?

(edited by Aegis.9724)

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Posted by: tigirius.9014

tigirius.9014

Do control builds even exist in the first place in gw2 pve?

They do in fact some classes were built specifically for CC but they destroyed any notion of CC, healing or condition builds in PVE long ago and have yet to do anything about it.

Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!

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Posted by: Windu The Forbidden One.6045

Windu The Forbidden One.6045

Do control builds even exist in the first place in gw2 pve?

Nope, Anet only wants the dps role. Support, control, healing, tank and every other role are not welcome in Anet’s game.

Dear A-net: Please nerf rock. Paper is fine
~Sincerely, Scissors

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

Do control builds even exist in the first place in gw2 pve?

Nothing affects your control skills, you just have them and think when to use them, not just spam it brainlessly.

l2p /thread

@OP
How you want to CC stationary ranged bosses anyway with chill or cripple? And maybe its a surprise, but you need damage to kill the enemy in this game as in others too so sorry if you want to tank or heal them do death but then this game isnt for you.

edit:

Imagine zerg content where you can stunlock the enemy. That thing has a purpose. Stop with the whining and start thinking.

edit2:

Nope, Anet only wants the dps role. Support, control, healing, tank and every other role are not welcome in Anet’s game.

This comment is insultingly false.

(edited by Dalanor.5387)

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Posted by: Aidan Savage.2078

Aidan Savage.2078

Do control builds even exist in the first place in gw2 pve?

Nope, Anet only wants the dps role. Support, control, healing, tank and every other role are not welcome in Anet’s game.

Players want only that role. They’re the ones that say “kitten you, we dont want a XYZ build in our party.” Go mention using PVT in the dungeon subforum and watch the verbal assault commence.

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Posted by: saye.9304

saye.9304

You don’t try to control the adds that spawn while you damage the champ?

isnt the best way to control the adds is to wipe them out with damage,damage and damage?

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Posted by: maha.7902

maha.7902

Do control builds even exist in the first place in gw2 pve?

Nope, Anet only wants the dps role. Support, control, healing, tank and every other role are not welcome in Anet’s game.

good thing i have videos to prove this objectively false!

look at all that support with might, fury, reflect, blinds, aegis, stability and CC’ing bosses!

Serah Mahariel – Death and Taxes

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Posted by: Gehenna.3625

Gehenna.3625

You don’t try to control the adds that spawn while you damage the champ?

isnt the best way to control the adds is to wipe them out with damage,damage and damage?

yeh, this game was definitely made for you.

I understand the OP’s question but GW2 isn’t about tactics and builds. It’s about going out with a bunch of people and killing kitten. If that’s too shallow for you, then I suggest you think about why you are playing this game.

I play it once or twice a year for a week or two at most. Anything more seems a waste of time, but that’s everybody’s choice. Personally I’m just not a big fan of this silly event driven hack and slash MMO.

It’s a game forum. The truth is not to be found here.

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Posted by: Stooperdale.3560

Stooperdale.3560

“Have ArenaNet thought about what this leaves for the rare kind of player that doesn’t want to go all out damage? They are even immune to stun and daze despite this not being mentioned in the buff”

Indomitable is lazy design but the defiant system wasn’t much better and was equally meaningless. Did you feel any better when you removed one of the 50 defiant stacks?

You can still use crowd control to help you kill multiple adds safely. That’s how GW2 often works. There are plenty of people getting themselves killed by attacking the bosses so take a break and kill some adds for them. It even helps clock up your achievements.

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

Do control builds even exist in the first place in gw2 pve?

Nope, Anet only wants the dps role. Support, control, healing, tank and every other role are not welcome in Anet’s game.

good thing i have videos to prove this objectively false!
[…]
look at all that support with might, fury, reflect, blinds, aegis, stability and CC’ing bosses!

While i personally love your evidence, it fails hard in that imo.
First of all, most of the people who are we arguing never experience these fights, thus dont even know what happens or what not.
Second, due to the first point all they see that 5 guy just burn down a mob and thats all. Meanwhile ofc you supporting eachother and use control (soft or hard CC) on mobs and dodge at the right time as it should be, but they cant even recognize this.
And i not even want to mention highly coordinated speed run records, which arent succesful for the first time you try it …

But yeah, here is the proof how false mindset these players still have. :/

ps:
support=/=healing
control=/=perma CC

People should realize now, that this is Guild Wars 2, not WoW.

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Posted by: Peetee.9406

Peetee.9406

Contradictory game design

They nerf zerker because DPS builds are too powerful.
A few weeks later, they’re nerfing boon duration making support builds less powerful
A few weeks later, they’re introducing indomitable making control builds worthless

They wonder why there’s so much hostility on the forums. Make up your mind and quit constantly contradicting yourselves.

Kayku
[CDS] Caedas
Sanctum of Rall

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Posted by: Brutal Arts.6307

Brutal Arts.6307

Contradictory game design

They nerf zerker because DPS builds are too powerful.
A few weeks later, they’re nerfing boon duration making support builds less powerful
A few weeks later, they’re introducing indomitable making control builds worthless

They wonder why there’s so much hostility on the forums. Make up your mind and quit constantly contradicting yourselves.

No DPS, No buffs, No control.
Gemshop only.
Final Destination.

You have gotten what you paid for, all that remains is biweekly gemshop pushing.

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

They nerf zerker because DPS builds are too powerful.

Readjust Ferocity in the same time, making full offensive builds stupidly OP in sub lvl80 areas and high level zones changes are meaningless. It’s just a bait to calm down the pvt cryharders.

A few weeks later, they’re nerfing boon duration making support builds less powerful

I guess you talk about some rune changes, right? Like +45% duration and +7 damage on Strenght runes. Yeah, such a huge nerf.
Please share with me how support builds looks like.

A few weeks later, they’re introducing indomitable making control builds worthless

They just made a new buff to make zerged bosses immune to control. If they had defiant only, control wouldnt be more useful, people just spam them anyway. And most of them stationary, so you dont need soft CC either.
Please share with me how control builds looks like.

ps:
People still dont undertand a lot of game mechanics. Try to reduce game mechanics to make players able to handle the content. People still fail. top kek

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Posted by: Windu The Forbidden One.6045

Windu The Forbidden One.6045

Very well then, I stand corrected.

Dear A-net: Please nerf rock. Paper is fine
~Sincerely, Scissors

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Posted by: Chadramar.8156

Chadramar.8156

Imagine zerg content where you can stunlock the enemy. That thing has a purpose.

This is not an argument against CC. It’s yet another argument for why “zerg” content is the most shallow BS imaginable and needs to stop.

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

Imagine zerg content where you can stunlock the enemy. That thing has a purpose.

This is not an argument against CC. It’s yet another argument for why “zerg” content is the most shallow BS imaginable and needs to stop.

Then look at dungeons, which has a 5 player limit only, still has anti CC mechanics. If it wouldnt exist you would see “lf CC thief” or something similar advertisements.
This issue just get bigger when the enemy has to face against much more players.

Any constructive idea?

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Posted by: maha.7902

maha.7902

Very well then, I stand corrected.

much respect for this guy

+1

Serah Mahariel – Death and Taxes

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

look at all that support with might, fury, reflect, blinds, aegis, stability and CC’ing bosses!

Unfortunately, people fail to see this as support because all of these can be applied without someone playing a buff-bot or heal-bot, or gearing specifically for a role to the exclusion of everything else. ANet eliminated dedicated roles, not roles — but people prefer to have their role graven in stone rather than being adopted at need in a fluid fashion.

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Posted by: saye.9304

saye.9304

You don’t try to control the adds that spawn while you damage the champ?

isnt the best way to control the adds is to wipe them out with damage,damage and damage?

yeh, this game was definitely made for you.

I understand the OP’s question but GW2 isn’t about tactics and builds. It’s about going out with a bunch of people and killing kitten. If that’s too shallow for you, then I suggest you think about why you are playing this game.

I play it once or twice a year for a week or two at most. Anything more seems a waste of time, but that’s everybody’s choice. Personally I’m just not a big fan of this silly event driven hack and slash MMO.

well you at least understand that this game is not for you, but why are coming on the forum and whining?
there are a lot of games out there that i do not like but i wont go on their forum and whine.
you are new kind of forum whiners who do not even play the game but still complain on it. great this game needed your kind too in addition of other whiners.

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Posted by: DonQuack.9025

DonQuack.9025

look at all that support with might, fury, reflect, blinds, aegis, stability and CC’ing bosses!

Unfortunately, people fail to see this as support because all of these can be applied without someone playing a buff-bot or heal-bot, or gearing specifically for a role to the exclusion of everything else. ANet eliminated dedicated roles, not roles — but people prefer to have their role graven in stone rather than being adopted at need in a fluid fashion.

I think its this really.

Concerns about HoT pre-order? Check here!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am9gVQB8gss

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

look at all that support with might, fury, reflect, blinds, aegis, stability and CC’ing bosses!

Unfortunately, people fail to see this as support because all of these can be applied without someone playing a buff-bot or heal-bot, or gearing specifically for a role to the exclusion of everything else. ANet eliminated dedicated roles, not roles — but people prefer to have their role graven in stone rather than being adopted at need in a fluid fashion.

Yeah, thats what i said too a few post above. Nice try to show evidence, but the majority wont understand because of said reasons.

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Posted by: Shufflepants.9785

Shufflepants.9785

Contradictory game design

They nerf zerker because DPS builds are too powerful.
A few weeks later, they’re nerfing boon duration making support builds less powerful
A few weeks later, they’re introducing indomitable making control builds worthless

They wonder why there’s so much hostility on the forums. Make up your mind and quit constantly contradicting yourselves.

No DPS, No buffs, No control.
Gemshop only.
Final Destination.

I haven’t seen that reference in quite some time. Thank you for that, it made my day

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Posted by: anzenketh.3759

anzenketh.3759

Do control builds even exist in the first place in gw2 pve?

Nope, Anet only wants the dps role. Support, control, healing, tank and every other role are not welcome in Anet’s game.

Except there is a fractal that exists that without crowd control you will have a harder time. I am looking at you grawl fractal

In Game: Storm Bluff Isle — Anzz, Anzenketh Kyoto

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Posted by: Aidan Savage.2078

Aidan Savage.2078

Do control builds even exist in the first place in gw2 pve?

Nope, Anet only wants the dps role. Support, control, healing, tank and every other role are not welcome in Anet’s game.

Except there is a fractal that exists that without crowd control you will have a harder time. I am looking at you grawl fractal

Grawl Fractal with Instability 36. Have fun rerolling.

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Posted by: Lord Kuru.3685

Lord Kuru.3685

Indomitable = Lazy design.

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Posted by: Sartharina.3542

Sartharina.3542

Imagine zerg content where you can stunlock the enemy. That thing has a purpose.

This is not an argument against CC. It’s yet another argument for why “zerg” content is the most shallow BS imaginable and needs to stop.

Then look at dungeons, which has a 5 player limit only, still has anti CC mechanics. If it wouldnt exist you would see “lf CC thief” or something similar advertisements.
This issue just get bigger when the enemy has to face against much more players.

Any constructive idea?

They suck at dungeon design as well.

Indomitable is bad because it completely negates the ability to use CC.

Defiant, however, is just bass-ackwards – In order to have a chance of controlling a boss with Defiant, you need to build yourself so that you’re essentially able to stunlock it once it’s out of Defiant, and it’s also impossible to time control effects to be useful because of the ablative shielding.

Instead, they should design Anti-Stunlock mechanics so that they cause diminishing returns, such as applying a short-duration Indomitable after being hit by a CC effect (Stacks duration any time new skill tries CCing it), and having durations and effectiveness get reduced the more times they get hit by it – If you carefully ration use of CC to coordinate and time its use against a boss, it would be properly effective. However, if you just zergspam CC effects, it gets momentarily stunned early on, but quickly becomes an unstoppable juggernaut.

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Posted by: maha.7902

maha.7902

Imagine zerg content where you can stunlock the enemy. That thing has a purpose.

This is not an argument against CC. It’s yet another argument for why “zerg” content is the most shallow BS imaginable and needs to stop.

Then look at dungeons, which has a 5 player limit only, still has anti CC mechanics. If it wouldnt exist you would see “lf CC thief” or something similar advertisements.
This issue just get bigger when the enemy has to face against much more players.

Any constructive idea?

They suck at dungeon design as well.

Indomitable is bad because it completely negates the ability to use CC.

Defiant, however, is just bass-ackwards – In order to have a chance of controlling a boss with Defiant, you need to build yourself so that you’re essentially able to stunlock it once it’s out of Defiant, and it’s also impossible to time control effects to be useful because of the ablative shielding.

Instead, they should design Anti-Stunlock mechanics so that they cause diminishing returns, such as applying a short-duration Indomitable after being hit by a CC effect (Stacks duration any time new skill tries CCing it), and having durations and effectiveness get reduced the more times they get hit by it – If you carefully ration use of CC to coordinate and time its use against a boss, it would be properly effective. However, if you just zergspam CC effects, it gets momentarily stunned early on, but quickly becomes an unstoppable juggernaut.

watch this. then watch it again. then keep watching. you don’t need to stunlock, you just need to co-ordinate it. if nobody else has CC, take a [mainhand]/pistol thief or a sw/sw + sw/p + daze mantra mesmer for 5 easily accessible interrupts.

defiant is fine the way it is – it stops bad players from just smashing CC skills (exhibit #1 – bearbow rangers point blanking bosses, exhibit #2 – gs mesmers pushing mobs out of a stack) and it lets organised teams control a boss.

Serah Mahariel – Death and Taxes

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Posted by: RemiRome.8495

RemiRome.8495

You don’t try to control the adds that spawn while you damage the champ?

There’s adds?

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

Defiant, however, is just bass-ackwards – In order to have a chance of controlling a boss with Defiant, you need to build yourself so that you’re essentially able to stunlock it once it’s out of Defiant, and it’s also impossible to time control effects to be useful because of the ablative shielding.

A) You cannot stun-lock a boss once Defiant has been stripped. You can stun it once, then need to strip Defiant again. Stun-locking can only occur if you can keep the target stunned, and Defiant prevents this.

Instead, they should design Anti-Stunlock mechanics so that they cause diminishing returns, such as applying a short-duration Indomitable after being hit by a CC effect (Stacks duration any time new skill tries CCing it), and having durations and effectiveness get reduced the more times they get hit by it – If you carefully ration use of CC to coordinate and time its use against a boss, it would be properly effective. However, if you just zergspam CC effects, it gets momentarily stunned early on, but quickly becomes an unstoppable juggernaut.

This proposal reads like you favor an immunity proc triggered by CC use, with the timer extended by additional uses of CC. The major difference between your proposal and Defiant is that Defiant can be stripped by use of CC effects. Thus, the counter-play for Defiant is intelligent use of CC skills to create a window of vulnerability. The counter-play for a timer is avoidance of CC skill use while a timer runs out. This is passive rather than active counter-play.

If one were to look at how Defiant and your proposed timer would play out:

In coordinated groups

Defiant: Players build and coordinate play to CC and strip Defiant to make CC available when wanted. Ability to CC is limited by build choices. There is a skill gate to both time the successful CC and to strip stacks.

With Timer: Players build and coordinate play to CC, but have no control over when they can CC again. Ability to CC is limited by build choices and by a timer. The skill gate consists only of timing the successful CC.

In herd play

With Defiant: Players spam skills whenever they are off CD. The first use of CC is successful. Additional CC can occur during the course of the fight, but will likely do so at random. CC is essentially irrelevant.

With Timer: Players spam skills whenever they are off CD. The first use of CC is successful. Additional CC can occur during the course of the fight, however it is much less likely than with Defiant. If it does happen, it is also likely to do so randomly. CC is essentially irrelevant.

My conclusion is that Defiant is a superior mechanic to an immunity timer in skilled small group play, and no worse than a timer in herd play.

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Posted by: Master of Timespace.2548

Master of Timespace.2548

Contradictory game design

They nerf zerker because DPS builds are too powerful.
A few weeks later, they’re nerfing boon duration making support builds less powerful
A few weeks later, they’re introducing indomitable making control builds worthless

They wonder why there’s so much hostility on the forums. Make up your mind and quit constantly contradicting yourselves.

No DPS, No buffs, No control.
Gemshop only.
Final Destination.

+1

? <(^-^><)>^-^)> <(^-^)> ?

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Posted by: Chadramar.8156

Chadramar.8156

Defiant is BS, sorry. It is hugely frustrating to whittle away at a nonsensical, unexplained perma-buff by wasting CC abilities over and over until the game graciously permits them to work, just once — oh wait, the laugh’s still on you, because the enemy is not only Defiant, he’s totally immune to whatever you just tried to do. It shouldn’t require perfect group coordination to maybe, possibly, get a once-in-a-while shot at CCing an enemy.

It’s fine to have some enemies that can’t be CCed under any circumstances. The bigger and heavier they are the less sense it makes for a puny human with a toothpick to be able to knock them on their butt. (Then again, it also makes little sense for said puny human to be able to hurt them AT ALL, so eh.) But smaller, and especially humanoid enemies? Bring on the CC. Give me variety, don’t pretend this silly little asura-boss in front of me is somehow as unshakable and untouchable as a giant.

Speaking of variety, I am tired of the many-against-one obsession when it comes to bossfights. Again, if we’re talking something like a dragon, that’s fine — but it does not feel epic or awesome when 5+ of us, the supposed heroes, gang up on some other humanoid who is infinitely more powerful and tougher than any of us. Fights of group-against-group or group-against-boss-and-swarm would be more intense and give control specs a place to shine.

Other ways to improve the combat would include pure interrupts being separate from actual CC — shorter-CD skills that interrupt an active cast and longer-CD skills that stun, knockdown, knockback, polymorph, whatever. That way you can affect a boss without turning them into a football to be kicked around by the players. You can also have bosses buffing themselves with Stability before winding up their killer move or going on a whirling rampage, so that players need to time boon-removal with CC. And finally, the “stacking up” instead of “whittling down” is an option too. Let the boss be affected by X control skills before going into a frenzy or summoning adds or activating some nasty environmental effect. This shouldn’t be a guaranteed wipe or even necessarily permanent, but enough to dish out some serious pain, giving groups who judiciously save CC for when it really helps (interrupt the big nasty spell, get the boss off a downed group member) an advantage over those who just spam away.

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

(1) Defiant is BS, sorry…

(2) It’s fine to have some enemies that can’t be CCed under any circumstances. The bigger and heavier they are the less sense it makes for a puny human with a toothpick to be able to knock them on their butt…

(3) Speaking of variety, I am tired of the many-against-one obsession when it comes to boss fights …

(4) Other ways to improve the combat would include pure interrupts … You can also have bosses buffing themselves with Stability before winding up their killer move or going on a whirling rampage, so that players need to time boon-removal with CC…

(5) And finally, the “stacking up” instead of “whittling down” is an option too. Let the boss be affected by X control skills before going into a frenzy or summoning adds or activating some nasty environmental effect. This shouldn’t be a guaranteed wipe or even necessarily permanent, but enough to dish out some serious pain, giving groups who judiciously save CC for when it really helps (interrupt the big nasty spell, get the boss off a downed group member) an advantage over those who just spam away.

(1) Defiant may not be fun, but let’s remember the alternative in those other games. Bosses cannot be CC’d at all.

(2) Those are puny humans with magic toothpicks.

(3) No argument. Variety is the spice of life. Unfortunately the concept of bosses is ingrained into the MMO genre.

(4) Both would be welcome additions to the game. However, the additional of interrupts on shorter CD’s as options for skills would be kind of a pain in WvW and sPvP, where there control is omnipresent.

(5) Again, variety is the spice of life. However, any mechanism relative to skilled use of control skills in an uncoordinated environment is probably wasted effort. There are too many players who just spam skills once CD is done. In coordinated play, one can husband CC and use it judiciously on bosses now, there’s just a requirement to plow the road some between uses.

Could the role CC plays in PvE combat be improved? Undoubtedly. The devs are not blind to this. The Risen archetype that does the lengthy life channel (Risen Lich in Sparkfly, for example) is one example where that skill begs to be interrupted and Defiant does not protect that skill. Could there be more? Of course.

Another possibility would be for Defiant stacks to have a timer as well as retaining the “remove stacks via CC” mechanic. This would permit skilled counterplay and make Defiant more like a timed stability skill.

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Posted by: Aeolus.3615

Aeolus.3615

it is a mash up keys and DPS random fest, what the mob AI would do against the quantity of CC aplyed, besides getting CC’ed all the time?

1st April joke, when gw2 receives a “balance” update.

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Posted by: Aidan Savage.2078

Aidan Savage.2078

A timed duration to Defiance stacks would only be applicable in zerg play. In dungeons and fractals, it’s kitten-easy to peel off 5 stacks of defiance already. In fact, I’d rather see bosses have more stacks of defiance in dungeons, and when that final stack of defiance is peeled off, the boss is stunned for 3-5 seconds.

Defiance does not make the enemies immune to the conditions, but just the control effect of the condition. If you fear them, they still receive the condition, but it does nothing (unless you proc on condi applications, such as Necro’s Terror trait).

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Posted by: MithranArkanere.8957

MithranArkanere.8957

I said it countless times (e.g.: here ).

Wee need an autobalance system.

If we had it, countless people spamming CCs on a single legendary boss would not keep it stunned, but CCs would still be useful.

Unshackable does not do the job, and it’s a system that is different between palyers and NPCs.

A good autobalance system would keep CC meaningful but prevent excessive CC spam from working, and would work for both players and NPCs of all ranks, and would even prevent gimmick builds from exploiting overlooked loopholes in balance from being exploited until they get addressed.

Autobalance is the way to go.

SUGGEST-A-TRON says:
PAY—ONCE—UNLOCKS—ARE—ALWAYS—BETTER.
No exceptions!