Guild Wars 2

I just wanted to ask why Anet added this type of mechanic.

In effect all it does is one side negates the effect of the other side. This doesn’t make the Agony content any harder it just makes it harder to access.

Why not create Agony on it’s own; that will make the content gradually harder without adding any kind of gating system.

How do Anet see this evolving in future and will all players need Infusions in the future to participate in the newer content?

I thought the infusions in this game would’ve been similar to how it was handled in GW1, made you immune to the Mursaat status thingy but didn’t add any extra stats.

Technically, infusions are intended to serve as item progression (“the carrot”) and will be precipitated throughout other forms of content. What we’re specifically referring to here is Agony and the Agony Resistance stat, which appears on the current iteration of infusions.

In that regard, I most certainly agree with you. To me it stinks of WoW’s resist gear (retired as “not fun”) and LOTRO’s Radiance (almost killed the game, devs removed). It also serves as a classic example of the futility of progression: everyone runs as fast as they can to stay where they are.

A more elegant solution would indeed be removing agony resistance and simply applying agony, tuned to the increasing difficulty level of FotM and potentially other content. Agony resistance is a needlessly limiting factor, the seeming definition of “gear check.”

Those who may invariably refer to Spectral Agony from GW1 should take a moment to recall that it was more of a plot device and was mitigated by a one-off quest.

Jairyn.6913:

Those who may invariably refer to Spectral Agony from GW1 should take a moment to recall that it was more of a plot device and was mitigated by a one-off quest.

Pretty much.

I actually liked the infusion in GW1. I don’t think “you have to do X content to access Y content” is a bad mechanic, in practice. But that already exists with FotM levels.

The whole concept of “you have to do X content repeatedly until you have gear to do Y content” is flawed and grindy.

I think the problem is that GW2 combat is not actiony enough.

You can see PvE skill in games like Devil May Cry 3, where there is a hardest difficulty mode where all enemies kill you in one hit. Yet there are people out there that can complete this mode, or even speedrun it.

Usually, Action RPG games don’t have mechanics that allow for this amount of skill. You can never avoid all damage with perfectly timed defense, or dominate an enemy with perfectly executed offense. You can only affect the outcome by a certain percentage, and the rest depends on your stats.

So it’s probably not possible, under the current mechanics of GW2, to have a dungeon that scales up infinitely with pure difficulty, and still be actually completeable. And certainly, if they did such a thing, then due to unbalanced classes/traits at the top end there would be very few viable builds.

So yeah, instead with have the old RPG mechanic of gating content via gear checks.

I think agony is lazy solution. Difficulty could be increased in a lot of ways and agony is the worst one. Agony ignore your armor and use % of your health. For example i used to gather conditions from wells in Cliffside Fractal to send them back to the boss or simply turn them into a boons, i had enough hp to afford doing so; now i have to evade those wells and only way to be able to use his wells against him again is to get more agony resistance. Agony is totally artificial stats which is result of laziness of developers.

It’s to add something to do. So many level 80s stood around complaining that there’s nothing to do. Now you have what to do! Run the hardest dungeon till the boss to get ascended and add agony resistance infusion to be able to participate and clear the hardest level dungeon. It’s not that hard to get or to afford (agony resistance costs maybe 100 of the fractal tickets and in my last run I’ve got 50). I see nothing wrong with it.

@Mirta, I understand that and I’m not complaining about it, it’s just that adding Agony and then a counter to it doesn’t make the Fractals any harder in itself, it just adds a harder component to aquire. Why not just add agony with anything to counter it, this would make the content get progressively but wouldn’t require additional gear.

The added difficulty created by Agony is just a percieved difficulty and not a real one.

Agony is simply a gear check. In order to survive Agony, you need Agony Resistance. But to have Agony Resistance, you need Ascended gear. Then in order to get Ascended gear, you have to grind your brains out. By grinding your brains out, you’ll be forced to spend a large amount of time online. Since you’re going to be online for much longer stretches, you’ll be more inclined to spend money on ArenaNet’s gems to make your life easier.

In the end, the point of the Agony system was to make ArenaNet’s customers spend more money. However due to the negative backlash from the Lost Shores and the Fractals, it’s ironically cost ArenaNet money instead of making them money. Now after Chris’ AMA speeches, it seems that they’ll be “soon” released Ascended gear in many gear. If that happens, it may be easier to get Agony Resistance. However this might also mean that Agony will become a more widespread part of the game.

@Wiser with Age.3714 Ascended is not hard to acquire. Spent hundreds of hours online and have not even once spent money on the item shop. Really there’s nothing that could even help you to get ascended there, so I don’t really understand why people suddenly got so angry. I doubt it will ever go widespread, because having ascended instead of exotic puts you on a great disadvantage in WvW and PvP mainly because ascended never has toughness or any other actually useful stats, so it’s only good for the high level dungeon.

Mirta.5029:

I doubt it will ever go widespread, because having ascended instead of exotic puts you on a great disadvantage in WvW and PvP mainly because ascended never has toughness or any other actually useful stats, so it’s only good for the high level dungeon.

Actually this was just Phase #1 of their plans for Ascended. Originally they were going to roll out Phase #2 in mid December (per their original news articles on this site). Also based on what ArenaNet’s Chris answered in the Reddit AMA on Monday, Ascended will be added to every part of the game. It would be probably safe to assume that since they’ve announced intentions of basically making Ascended into Exotic v2.0, we’re likely to see more varied +Stat combinations within the coming months.

The cash angle comes from buying tradeable crafting parts and using them to get Ascended items from the Mystic Forge. Since the current Phase #1 gear pieces can’t be Salvaged or sold / traded to someone else, this will force people who don’t want to grind the Fractal in a RNG gamble for ring drops to instead make things (like Offensive & Defensive Infusions) in the Mystic Forge. This leads to either mega mob grinding for crafting drops or with people buying them from the BLTC (which means that trading Gems → Gold would speed up the process).

Now the AMA responses did have ArenaNet say that they basically did everything 100% wrong with how they wanted to release and handle the Ascended gear subject. In theory, every single thing they did was basically the complete opposite of what they internally agreed were the best ways to handle the matter…. Does that even make the slightest bit of logical sense? Is it even that possible to mess things up so royally when you’ve already decided on a general course of action?

No matter how you cut it, ArenaNet has just messed up. Either they were complete morons by ignoring 100% of their plans or they never had such plans and think that we’re moronic enough to buy their new PR back stepping. Under either scenerio, I don’t have a lot of faith in ArenaNet as a business savy company. As a result, I’ve become extremely cynical about the entire matter and doubtful about the future of GW2.

These are all valid concerns but we are drifting a bit away from the purpose of this post.

Can anybody else give an insight into the Agony/Infusion mechanic and why you think it was implemented?
How do you see this evolving over time?

It was thrown in as a gear check. I thought it was rather blindingly clear about how things were going to be. Yet Chris’ response in the AMA implied that ArenaNet is inherently against gated content that would result from the requirement of such gear checks.

What does all of that mean? Not a dang clue. Chris mentioned that they were “carefully observing” things and that they would “adjust” as needed. If you can figure out what all of the contradictory double talk means, then you’re more skilled than I am.

That was one of the reason for starting this post, in the “hope” that Anet might help to clarify the issue, plus I am genuinely interested in why this particular mechanic was used as I’ve seen it fail in games before. Was wondering what Anet were doing differently which they think will make it successful.

As well as finding out what other people think.

its a treadmill, clear and simple, but a “mild” one.

ie; the stats difference isnt big.

obviously, if you play for one year and some guy start playing next year, the difference in term of stats at this point will be quite big.
but maybe theyll find a way of giving out the “second best” always cheap so that most people can get second best.

basically, play the game if you enjoy the content and the gameplay.
the grind is huge for not much, so just go with the flow and eventually youll get your shinnies.

Avatar.1923:

its a treadmill, clear and simple, but a “mild” one.

ie; the stats difference isnt big.

obviously, if you play for one year and some guy start playing next year, the difference in term of stats at this point will be quite big.
but maybe theyll find a way of giving out the “second best” always cheap so that most people can get second best.

basically, play the game if you enjoy the content and the gameplay.
the grind is huge for not much, so just go with the flow and eventually youll get your shinnies.

see, that’s the problem once we as a community accepted these type of implementation, Anet will just keep following it with more and more of them. In the end, someone that begin playing game compare to someone that play it for few years, the gear difference will be huge. If Anet will keep giving out “welfare” upgrades in between new type of upgrades, it pretty much just made the whole thing a huge time sink, which is something they promised they wouldn’t do in the first place?

Wiser with Age.3714:

Mirta.5029:

I doubt it will ever go widespread, because having ascended instead of exotic puts you on a great disadvantage in WvW and PvP mainly because ascended never has toughness or any other actually useful stats, so it’s only good for the high level dungeon.

Actually this was just Phase #1 of their plans for Ascended. Originally they were going to roll out Phase #2 in mid December (per their original news articles on this site). Also based on what ArenaNet’s Chris answered in the Reddit AMA on Monday, Ascended will be added to every part of the game. It would be probably safe to assume that since they’ve announced intentions of basically making Ascended into Exotic v2.0, we’re likely to see more varied +Stat combinations within the coming months.

The cash angle comes from buying tradeable crafting parts and using them to get Ascended items from the Mystic Forge. Since the current Phase #1 gear pieces can’t be Salvaged or sold / traded to someone else, this will force people who don’t want to grind the Fractal in a RNG gamble for ring drops to instead make things (like Offensive & Defensive Infusions) in the Mystic Forge. This leads to either mega mob grinding for crafting drops or with people buying them from the BLTC (which means that trading Gems -> Gold would speed up the process).

Now the AMA responses did have ArenaNet say that they basically did everything 100% wrong with how they wanted to release and handle the Ascended gear subject. In theory, every single thing they did was basically the complete opposite of what they internally agreed were the best ways to handle the matter…. Does that even make the slightest bit of logical sense? Is it even that possible to mess things up so royally when you’ve already decided on a general course of action?

No matter how you cut it, ArenaNet has just messed up. Either they were complete morons by ignoring 100% of their plans or they never had such plans and think that we’re moronic enough to buy their new PR back stepping. Under either scenerio, I don’t have a lot of faith in ArenaNet as a business savy company. As a result, I’ve become extremely cynical about the entire matter and doubtful about the future of GW2.

If they would be implementing it everywhere, then it’s safe to assume that you’ll be able to craft it too, that it will drop from dragons and you’ll be able to buy it with badges in WvW as well as buy it with karma. If it’s Exotic 2.0 then I doubt that it will as hard to get as legendary is. So far it seems that it’s only for jewelry. As a tier I imagine it will be tradable on the Trading Post too. So, where’s the problem?

Mirta.5029:

As a tier I imagine it will be tradable on the Trading Post too. So, where’s the problem?

All of the current pieces (game drops or made) are bound to your account. They are effectively No Trade, which is the whole point of Ascended. You can get them for yourself, but you can’t give them to other players. If they want these items (or need them to keep up with the pack), then they’ll have to jump through the neccessary hoops on their own.

That’s one of the key issues. At the moment, every crafting recipe is a bit insane. Unless ArenaNet changes their philosophy mid stride, which is still extremely possible at this point, then Ascended can only be made or acquired by yourself. This has been severely freaking out people who craft Exotics and sell them on the market. The same goes for people who sell game dropped Exotics. From a buying power standpoint, crafting components will become the new price gouging area.

My fundamental issue is that ArenaNet has started a Cold War era arms race in the one MMO that advertised itself as not being part of the system. Based on my experience with many past MMOs, Ascended will become the new gear standard for guilds and PUGs. If you want to keep yourself from being excluded, then you’re going to be forced to keep up with the rest of the Ascended grinders. The chasm will slowly grow between the Haves and the Have Nots. New content will be designed around the gear level of the Haves. Etc etc. I’ve seen this dance play itself out in too many MMOs to expect different results.

That’s my issue with the whole matter. If you’re going to be a gear progression MMO, then say it up front and say it proudly. I’m very weary of the passive aggressive double speak from MMO designers and would rather put up with a flawed game which is run by people who have a consistent vision and are relatively up front with their customers about how things are going to be. At this point, that’s no longer ArenaNet to me. While I’m still trying to keep a close eye on things for the next week or two as the last of things plays itself out, I’m not expecting any happy surprises that will prevent me from looking for a new MMO.

rchu.8945:

Avatar.1923:

its a treadmill, clear and simple, but a “mild” one.

ie; the stats difference isnt big.

obviously, if you play for one year and some guy start playing next year, the difference in term of stats at this point will be quite big.
but maybe theyll find a way of giving out the “second best” always cheap so that most people can get second best.

basically, play the game if you enjoy the content and the gameplay.
the grind is huge for not much, so just go with the flow and eventually youll get your shinnies.

see, that’s the problem once we as a community accepted these type of implementation, Anet will just keep following it with more and more of them. In the end, someone that begin playing game compare to someone that play it for few years, the gear difference will be huge. If Anet will keep giving out “welfare” upgrades in between new type of upgrades, it pretty much just made the whole thing a huge time sink, which is something they promised they wouldn’t do in the first place?

probably rhat despite all Anet good will, they couldnt come up with a more revolutionary design than a gear treadmill.
they made the “next warcraft”, but not the “next cult game”.

and now that all this treadmill is implemented, i wouldnt put my hopes up on them changing everything they have in the design bin.

gw2 will live as long as the next “cult, big” fantasy mmo isnt out.

and it could be Elder scroll (but i doubt) or Titan (i believe in Blizzard on that one).