Guild Wars 2

Hi all, it has been a while since I’ve posted a serious question to the community (and even longer since I’ve stepped online in-game for more than 5 minutes), but it has been something troubling me for a while now.

First some background as to where I’m coming from…

My first MMORPG was Final Fantasy XI. A game that most people nowadays refer to as a style of tedium and ‘old clunky battle’. For me it was a game that immersed me deeply to the brink of escapism and allowed me to really enjoy playing a game online. From the constant auto-attacks building up to a Weapon Skill event (Limit Break) and the grindiness of leveling – I was always extremely enjoying myself. After almost 7 years I left the game when they decided to increase the established level cap to 85 and introduce for lack of a better term ‘more easy/casual’ gameplay.

I then had a brief spurt with WoW. I had beta tested and watched friends leave FFXI to go play it, but the cartoon style and emphasis on quest exp over partying / grinding never appealed to me. I went anyways as I’d rather be with friends from FFXI and unhappy rather than unhappy and with all my friends gone. I played Vanilla up to the release of Burning Crusade. Watching raided gear become useless to a green item from the first quest was not a pleasant experience and by the time I spent a day in Zangar Marsh I had decided that I would say good bye.

To this day I’ve had an off/on again relationship with WoW due to those same FFXI friends still playing and wanting to socialize with them more than play the game. I couldn’t believe upon each return (usually for a stay of 1-2 months) how much more simplified / easier the game had become. Especially since I had viewed the game as so easy from the beginning even in Vanilla.

I went on to beta test/go live with LOTRO, Aion, Tera, and a few others. And one thing I noticed ever since WoW’s release was the common UI appearance with the action bar at the bottom, but most notable the hot keys. Which brings us to the reason for this post.

Hot Key Gaming

For the life of me I have never understood why personally this style of gaming was viewed so much superior to the group cooperative combo system I was so enraptured with in FFXI. However, I do know that is solely my opinion in the matter. Not to mention technical limitations with MMO engines, network bandwidth, coding, etc & ad nauseum.

The main problem with the majority of these games with exception of Tera is that the player stands generally stationary unless a ‘hot lava’ or ‘roaming’ mechanic is forced on them during the fight. Other than that there is no reason to move and just spam pre-configured animations that are your skills.

So when Guild Wars 2 talked about all its innovation with its combat system and how much it was going to revolutionize, nay replace the MMO genre with a new standard – to say I was interested was a gross understatement. Just previously I had been in Tera and had been blown away by the active combat / evasion system. Playing a warrior and hopping around all over the place and seeing the stronger emphasis on ‘auto-attack’ with timed hot keys was definitely an improvement over what I personally viewed as boring hot key gaming. The problem with Tera was everything that wasn’t the combat system and there were even some hiccups in the combat system.

So when GW2 I was torn. I wanted to experience combat in a game that was more than mere hot key gaming, but the lack of the trinity (which I am strongly against in the way it was developed in GW2) had me torn. I took the chance and got the game. And when I loaded it up I created an Asuran thief and started. I lasted all of 10 minutes the first time. I was dismayed to find out that GW2 wasn’t the ‘innovation’ in MMO combat that I had hoped. It was more hot key gaming and if anything it was a definite step back from what I had seen in Tera. I quickly uninstalled the game and despaired.

At the time I was still playing FFXIV (a game that for lack of better words never was fully released). The servers were coming down soon for the start of the new improved 2.0 that had been on the forefronts of all our minds / hopes for better than a year.

So I decided I was rash with GW2 and I’d re-install it and at least give it a complete go. I went down my normal style and chose a ranger instead of the thief. I got it to 80 and crafted a full MF set for myself. While the combat system was nothing new and not very enjoyable I viewed it as a no-monthly fee RPG (not MMO as after multiple parties / events I just prefer soloing or duoing). And that was something I suppose, but I was never IN the game. Never immersed or enjoying it like I had hoped.

And after looking and comparing between all the games I’ve played over the years I still can’t put an exact focus to it. The graphic style both appeals and appalls me, but its not an ugly game. There are nitpicks all over, but every game has those.

(1/2)

I finally logged in one day for a mere few minutes and tried to do some fighting (not farming drops as that was long ago taken away) and I think I finally put the connection that it was the style of fighting that made me hop from MMO to MMO over the last few years after I left FFXI.

Just like the ‘personal (Traehearne’s (sp)) story’ (I still laugh at this) the combat using a hot key system is pre-programmed. Its an animation that you as yourself have no input on other than the ‘initialize’ (push the button) phase. There’s no build up of excitement leading to unleashing a huge move, there’s no actual input from the player on what’s being done. Obviously the enjoyment factor of this is all opinion. However, I think one of the things that drove me into such depths in FFXI was that while fighting no matter how grindy or repetitive for hours on end the ‘build up’ was one of the key things that got me into it. Mind you the auto-attack was still pre-made and could definitely have needed help, but the lack of a ‘hot key’ so to speak was a big thing for me.

And with Tera you control when you auto-attack, when you evade, when you dodge, where you go. And the combat is realistic and draws you in. But it still relied on hot keys for the ‘special moves’.

Actual Question for Discussion

SNIP – Refer to below addendum.

But that’s just my opinion. What’s yours?

TLDR: Take the time to read and understand what someone says over going the ‘Cliff Notes’ route.

Also, I know the title is not optimal, but not sure what I should actually label this post.

(2/2)

EDIT: Since some have said the original post was way too random (I wouldn’t disagree) I’ve attached below a snippet to focus on what I was going for discussion-wise:

Kintari.4172:

Too many random tangents / complaints about stuff unrelated to combat mechanics, and not enough on how you think things should actually work.

Rather than continually referencing other games (not everybody has played the same games), repeating phrases like ‘hot-key gaming’, and obscuring the point with random brain-dumps (itemization in early BC WoW, your thoughts on the holy trinity or lack thereof, or the state of magic find and drops in this game), try going into more detail on how you think combat should work, and less on how you think it should not work.

From one of my earlier replies (Yes, I admitted to rambling in initial post, and while this references Tera’s evasion, it says how I’d like combat to focus).

And yes, I do agree that Tera was hot key gaming. My huge love with the game was playing specifically a warrior and being able to choose when to attack (auto-attack/strike) to gain MP etc. It definitely still had hot keys which I’m not a fan of at all, but the interactive-ness of the way the system was made was very well done. Like I said previously, I’d like them to do a hybrid of Tera’s evasion / selective auto-attack system but make it branch out. I’m constantly rolling and slicing behind the enemy so that charts me on a branch to go down a certain attack, ie: the game takes player movement / attack patterns to branch it into what pre-animated attacks will be unleashed when the energy is full. If that makes any sense.

If this doesn’t make sense let me over-simplify it. The system has an ongoing algorithm that sees how you approach mobs, when you decide to attack, if there’s a focal weak point and how you exploit it. By seeing that it determines a method such as ‘brute force style attacks’ vs. ‘quick, stealthy debilitation attacks’, etc based on the way you move.

Some people prefer to run head on and unleash as much damage as possible and hope the mob falls. In this case the player would do just that, run at the mob and as they ‘white attacked’ (manual non-special attacks) the game would recognize that style and would automatically track down a path with special abilities on that path.

If the player saw that full on brute attacks weren’t working and shifted to evading constantly and trying to attack the mob at a weak spot, ie: the back, the game would shift the special attacks to reflect as such.

There wouldn’t be hot keys at all, but an evaluation of the player’s fighting stance or style to determine a correlating attack.

Again, ideally full player input via VR would be our dream, but I think for now a system that recognizes player style would be more in-depth. The only ‘hot key’s would be item usage such as a potion for healing, etc.

I played TERA long enough to get a Lancer to lvl cap, and lvl’d several alts about halfway. Even though I used an Xbox controller, I still tended to use the same combo of 5-6 skills on each mob. Fighting a BAM was the only exception, and the only fun to me really. Even though I could move around, and didn’t use the keyboard to attack, it really is still the same thing as hotkey gaming.

Also in TERA there are only a few mob types really that are repeated over and over with only slight grapical changes and pallette swaps, so it’s pretty grindy and tedious to lvl more then one toon to cap IMO. So, I enjoyed TERA’s combat for a time, but it’s not like completely brand new or anything, just redressed hotkey action with a move function.

As for my time with GW2, I enjoy the combat in general. I have an 80 guardian and mesmer and several other alts. I enjoy the gameworld: the graphics, music, DE’s, lore enough to enjoy my time playing the game even though the combat is not always hard or intense.

The only thing I would like is more options I guesss. Taken as a whole, there are alot of weapon, utility, and build options for each class, but it seems in reality there’s only a few good ones for each class. Idk, it’s hard to for me to complain because I’m still having fun with GW2.

I think sometimes people, especially older gamers, just get a little burned out after 15 yrs of mmo’s or whatever, so I take breaks to do other things, play other games, and if I really do enjoy a game, I’ll come back to it. I don’t really know how to respond to you except to say that this is how the games are played, and even though they have some differences, they are all takes on the same ideas. Even in the older, classic FF’s, though you might have 20 different magic spells, it didn’t mean you would use them all.

what I think OP? I think you are asking for ffIX II. you want to get back the memories of your first MMO, which may never happen. and no matter how you set up the combat system, w/o a variety of enemies, it will still come into a repetition in what you do.

Sounds like you should give AoC a try, it has a hotkey hybrid combat system which was friggin awesome and a little ahead of it’s time. i personally would love to see more of a hotkey combo system involved with our combo system. For example you lay down a combo field and a “combo tree” would pop up certain skill chains to pull off depending on your weapon (or something). As you skill further down the tree new options are available till you hit the last skill which would be like the blast finisher. This i believe is really the only way to make mmo games more “action oriented” as it were.

kitanas.3596:

what I think OP? I think you are asking for ffIX II. you want to get back the memories of your first MMO, which may never happen. and no matter how you set up the combat system, w/o a variety of enemies, it will still come into a repetition in what you do.

While you’re entitled to think that, you’d be wrong. It wasn’t my first MMO, it was my first MMORPG. My first MMO was Earth & Beyond (a failed EA experiment which was almost a spitting copy of original Eve) followed by Planetside as a MMOFPS. While FFXI was my first MMORPG, my issue again is with the hot key system and unfortunately, that has been the only one to date that didn’t have it that I’ve played. Although I don’t believe EQ1 had hot keys as well, but I never got into it.

And I never said that combat alone was what made a game. If you read my post I clearly stated that I enjoyed Tera’s combat very much, however the combat was all it had going for it. You are right that a lack of variety and such is also a killer. But if I can’t get into the fight and be drawn in in the first few fights when I’ve yet to meet the majority of mobs in the game, it doesn’t matter how many types of mobs there are. The combat system has to be there from the very first fight.

My ideal MMO wouldn’t even be like FFXI. It would be closer to SAO (anime series). The idea of a system in place with finite levels (100 in this case) where the extremely hard boss has to be defeated by a front line group (not a guild, but actually conglomerate of server) before the next level is unlocked for anyone.

The idea that if your character dies all your loot, exp, and character are gone and you have to start over or re-incarnate.

The option of choosing to be combative or just live a virtual life like Sims where you can fish, be a merchant, etc.

Active combat system without hot keys (the main point of this thread).

Like I said, you may believe I just want FFXI-2 (a statement that’s been made numerous times on the FFXIV 2.0 alpha forums with the people unhappy with the new hot key system) but you’d not be correct. The reason I so strongly spoke of FFXI in this case was it was the one that stuck out at the time and I’d like to see another game move toward that direction. GW2 was marketed as a groundbreaking / genre-shattering MMORPG changer. Obviously my opinion, but I fail to see how that happened.

Wait what? You found FF14 fun to play? FF14 was a game that was so bad at release the dev’s admitted it was a huge mistake and so gave the players an entire full year of free play until they managed to overhaul the entire game.

And I find that Tera is still “hot-key gaming” for several reasons:
1) When you attack you are rooted in place for the duration of the attack animation
2) The only attacks which are not based on hotkeys are what would be autoattacks in any other MMO because they deal an extremely tiny percentage of damage to the mob
3) The mobs take forever to kill and are placed in such a way throughout the game world that there really isn’t a rhyme or reason to some of their placement.
4) The quests are completely pointless
5) Etc. Basically the only reason why anyone says it is different than most other MMOs is because you can “dodge” in between attacks which is a really paltry reason in my eyes.

And for the record I loved the early part of EnB where it left the player still very much engrossed in the game and the gameworld. It was also the first MMO which used voiceovers for the NPCs (very exciting at the time and it wasn’t until SWTOR that I saw another MMO try doing it). Then it became nothing more than a pointless grind so I quit. But the combat was quite differentiable from Eve because EnB was your normal MMO hot-key combat set in space (it even had rogues) which was much more exciting during the early levels than the boring snoozefest that is Eve combat.

No MMO has ever once come close to becoming Soul Calibur or DMC online.

Ellisande.5218:

Wait what? You found FF14 fun to play? FF14 was a game that was so bad at release the dev’s admitted it was a huge mistake and so gave the players an entire full year of free play until they managed to overhaul the entire game.

And I find that Tera is still “hot-key gaming” for several reasons:
1) When you attack you are rooted in place for the duration of the attack animation
2) The only attacks which are not based on hotkeys are what would be autoattacks in any other MMO because they deal an extremely tiny percentage of damage to the mob
3) The mobs take forever to kill and are placed in such a way throughout the game world that there really isn’t a rhyme or reason to some of their placement.
4) The quests are completely pointless
5) Etc. Basically the only reason why anyone says it is different than most other MMOs is because you can “dodge” in between attacks which is a really paltry reason in my eyes.

And for the record I loved the early part of EnB where it left the player still very much engrossed in the game and the gameworld. It was also the first MMO which used voiceovers for the NPCs (very exciting at the time and it wasn’t until SWTOR that I saw another MMO try doing it). Then it became nothing more than a pointless grind so I quit. But the combat was quite differentiable from Eve because EnB was your normal MMO combat set in space (it even had rogues) which was much more exciting during the early levels than the boring snoozefest that is Eve combat.

Oh no, don’t get me wrong. I know how bad FFXIV was. I stayed with it because the Devs (something ArenaNet should take a huge note of) were constantly in contact with the community to go above and beyond to make it right and repair the issues at hand. While we’re still 2 years past original release the beta for 2.0 starts in less than two weeks. I was an Alpha tester in both 1.0 and 2.0 and I just want to see what changes they’re going to make. However, after testing the 2.0 alpha I’m not sure that I’ll be playing the game again. It’s more ‘hot key’ gaming.

And yes, I do agree that Tera was hot key gaming. My huge love with the game was playing specifically a warrior and being able to choose when to attack (auto-attack/strike) to gain MP etc. It definitely still had hot keys which I’m not a fan of at all, but the interactive-ness of the way the system was made was very well done. Like I said previously, I’d like them to do a hybrid of Tera’s evasion / selective auto-attack system but make it branch out. I’m constantly rolling and slicing behind the enemy so that charts me on a branch to go down a certain attack, ie: the game takes player movement / attack patterns to branch it into what pre-animated attacks will be unleashed when the energy is full. If that makes any sense.

In an ideal world it’d just be VR and the issue wouldn’t even be an issue. But for now you know.

I’m fine with the combat system in GW2 – I play a guardian and I play melee 95% of the time.

Your post reminds me of the days when Starsiege:Tribes was new and the people who loved it loved it A LOT. After the game died down, a lot of hardcore players were just always looking for that exact feeling they got from that game. It wasn’t enough to have a jetpack in a fps game.

Once you fall totally in love with a game, and play it for years and know every little detail about it, no similar game will ever take it’s place – it’s just not possible. Nobody is going to give a FF game GW style graphics or a GW game FF style mechanics.

Anyone who has played a game that much has developed a very strong neurological reward/response system where they get little micro shots of endorphins every time they do something they consider rewarding or fun. These neurological programs are non-transferable to other games so when we move, we feel like we are playing a similar game, but without that internal feedback system we slowly built around the previous game, the new game just feels hollow and “wrong”.

It also happens when you try to switch to a different OS or something similar. All those rewarding little competencies have to be rebuilt. Keystroke by keystroke.

You can download “combat mode”. It creates a more active combat feel. A lot of people use it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tjK5OI2oAQ

You can try to play Dark Souls, is not a MMORPG but the game have the best combat controls i’ve ever seen.

Any game that allows you to “target” something and automatically aim for you is a game for noobs. Auto-aim is like training wheels on a bicycle. The game is literally treating you like a 12 year old.

Olfinbedwere.5049:

You can download “combat mode”. It creates a more active combat feel. A lot of people use it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tjK5OI2oAQ

Was just gonna suggest that to the OP. Coming from TERA myself, it’s a VERY nice addon

@OP

I think you haven’t grasped the potential of GW2’s combat system.
I play a Guardian and Elementalist, and while the Elementalist is my “easy mode” character because it’s ranged, meleeing as a Guardian is incredibly satisfying.

I was also amazed at Tera’s combat system at first, and kinda shunned the combat in GW2 thinking it wasn’t as amazing as Tera’s. After a thousand hours of playing, I can say that I find the combat in GW2 more interesting.

Did you know that you can dodge without actually spending your endurance gauge? You just have to move!

Did you know that you can solo nearly most group events in the game?

Did you know you can kill most enemies in the game without taking a single hit if you know what you’re doing?

You also don’t need to target any monster, when you attack, you’ll hit whatever that you actually hit on your screen.
This means you can actually feel like a more realistic fight, moving around and swinging (and missing, but evading as well), along with your “hot key gaming” you call of moving away from red circles and such.

But the game also lets you play as if it were a MMO that you stand and eat hits, healing through the damage and just evading the massive damage skills.
It’s up to you how you play, and because if you had to move around for every monster you’d fought or you would risk dying, the game would be just too hard.
Instead, the game’s on the easy side where you can do fine if you play it as you would any other MMO, and if you actually take the combat for real you can solo champions and group events with a decent challenging difficulty.

Dreamslayer.7659:

I’m fine with the combat system in GW2 – I play a guardian and I play melee 95% of the time.

Your post reminds me of the days when Starsiege:Tribes was new and the people who loved it loved it A LOT. After the game died down, a lot of hardcore players were just always looking for that exact feeling they got from that game. It wasn’t enough to have a jetpack in a fps game.

Once you fall totally in love with a game, and play it for years and know every little detail about it, no similar game will ever take it’s place – it’s just not possible. Nobody is going to give a FF game GW style graphics or a GW game FF style mechanics.

Anyone who has played a game that much has developed a very strong neurological reward/response system where they get little micro shots of endorphins every time they do something they consider rewarding or fun. These neurological programs are non-transferable to other games so when we move, we feel like we are playing a similar game, but without that internal feedback system we slowly built around the previous game, the new game just feels hollow and “wrong”.

It also happens when you try to switch to a different OS or something similar. All those rewarding little competencies have to be rebuilt. Keystroke by keystroke.

Again, I most definitely did love FFXI at that current time, however the game has long since been changed into something else. But as I said previously, I’m not looking for a game with FFXI’s style of combat. My point was a system that doesn’t utilize hot key combat. FFXI was the only one that I’ve played since. If you read my last post referencing SAO you’ll see what I mean, but I do appreciate the input.

Mainly I just want people to say if they’re for or against hot key style gaming. The evasion/dodge aspect in GW2 is much better to have than nothing at all, however I’ll take Tera’s over GW2. That isn’t to say that Tera is the end all, just that they accomplished more for evasion in that regards. Root abilities and other issues are a whole other story though. Something that needed improvement in Tera for sure.

Danicco.3568:

@OP

I think you haven’t grasped the potential of GW2’s combat system.
I play a Guardian and Elementalist, and while the Elementalist is my “easy mode” character because it’s ranged, meleeing as a Guardian is incredibly satisfying.

I was also amazed at Tera’s combat system at first, and kinda shunned the combat in GW2 thinking it wasn’t as amazing as Tera’s. After a thousand hours of playing, I can say that I find the combat in GW2 more interesting.

Did you know that you can dodge without actually spending your endurance gauge? You just have to move!

Did you know that you can solo nearly most group events in the game?

Did you know you can kill most enemies in the game without taking a single hit if you know what you’re doing?

You also don’t need to target any monster, when you attack, you’ll hit whatever that you actually hit on your screen.
This means you can actually feel like a more realistic fight, moving around and swinging (and missing, but evading as well), along with your “hot key gaming” you call of moving away from red circles and such.

But the game also lets you play as if it were a MMO that you stand and eat hits, healing through the damage and just evading the massive damage skills.
It’s up to you how you play, and because if you had to move around for every monster you’d fought or you would risk dying, the game would be just too hard.
Instead, the game’s on the easy side where you can do fine if you play it as you would any other MMO, and if you actually take the combat for real you can solo champions and group events with a decent challenging difficulty.

Also, I don’t think you’re grasping what I’m saying. I know all well how to dodge and evade and solo things. As I said originally I mainly only solo’d and duo’d in GW2.

My issue is with hot keys not with evasion / dodging.

And I would like to take a snipe, not at you, but at the game. Did you know you can wear full MF gear and farm for hours after not being on in over a month to not get any decent drops? Couldn’t resist! That’s for the other post though.

Back to hot keys!

Vorch.2985:

Olfinbedwere.5049:

You can download “combat mode”. It creates a more active combat feel. A lot of people use it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tjK5OI2oAQ

Was just gonna suggest that to the OP. Coming from TERA myself, it’s a VERY nice addon

I have seen the combat add on, however I have also seen the official statement from ArenaNet saying that it violates their ToS. It was asked very early on at GW2 release when it was initially released.

I definitely prefer gamepad over keyboard for trying to make a MMO more action-feel. And that might be a primary reason a lot of these MMOs choose to do hot keys is because they want the primary user to be keyboard / mouse and not gamepad.

/shrug

Edit: Official ArenaNet response regarding Combat Mode.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/account/Will-I-get-banned-for-using-Combat-Mode-1-0/first

Sumii.2845:

So after this long winded and unorganized post, what do you the community think?

I think you should edit the two posts so that it covers just the relevant question.

All the venting you do for the first 80% of it just gets in the way, even if it’s satisfying to you.

OP do you play WvW? Still think “standing still and watching hotkey animations unless there is a red circle” works there?

Sumii.2845:

My ideal MMO wouldn’t even be like FFXI. It would be closer to SAO (anime series). The idea of a system in place with finite levels (100 in this case) where the extremely hard boss has to be defeated by a front line group (not a guild, but actually conglomerate of server) before the next level is unlocked for anyone.

The idea that if your character dies all your loot, exp, and character are gone and you have to start over or re-incarnate.

The option of choosing to be combative or just live a virtual life like Sims where you can fish, be a merchant, etc.

Active combat system without hot keys (the main point of this thread).

Sounds like a fantasy themed MMO FPS to me…

somsom.5201:

OP do you play WvW? Still think “standing still and watching hotkey animations unless there is a red circle” works there?

I should have iterated that I am talking primarily in PvE situation, however even in WvW you’re still mashing hot keys. Again, my main complaint wasn’t standing still, the primary issue to be discussed was hot keys as a combat system. The evasion / dodge system wasn’t being a focus other than saying that personally I felt Tera did it better.

Too many random tangents / complaints about stuff unrelated to combat mechanics, and not enough on how you think things should actually work.

Rather than continually referencing other games (not everybody has played the same games), repeating phrases like ‘hot-key gaming’, and obscuring the point with random brain-dumps (itemization in early BC WoW, your thoughts on the holy trinity or lack thereof, or the state of magic find and drops in this game), try going into more detail on how you think combat should work, and less on how you think it should not work.

Kintari.4172:

Too many random tangents / complaints about stuff unrelated to combat mechanics, and not enough on how you think things should actually work.

Rather than continually referencing other games (not everybody has played the same games), repeating phrases like ‘hot-key gaming’, and obscuring the point with random brain-dumps (itemization in early BC WoW, your thoughts on the holy trinity or lack thereof, or the state of magic find and drops in this game), try going into more detail on how you think combat should work, and less on how you think it should not work.

From one of my earlier replies (Yes, I admitted to rambling in initial post, and while this references Tera’s evasion, it says how I’d like combat to focus).

And yes, I do agree that Tera was hot key gaming. My huge love with the game was playing specifically a warrior and being able to choose when to attack (auto-attack/strike) to gain MP etc. It definitely still had hot keys which I’m not a fan of at all, but the interactive-ness of the way the system was made was very well done. Like I said previously, I’d like them to do a hybrid of Tera’s evasion / selective auto-attack system but make it branch out. I’m constantly rolling and slicing behind the enemy so that charts me on a branch to go down a certain attack, ie: the game takes player movement / attack patterns to branch it into what pre-animated attacks will be unleashed when the energy is full. If that makes any sense.

If this doesn’t make sense let me over-simplify it. The system has an ongoing algorithm that sees how you approach mobs, when you decide to attack, if there’s a focal weak point and how you exploit it. By seeing that it determines a method such as ‘brute force style attacks’ vs. ‘quick, stealthy debilitation attacks’, etc based on the way you move.

Some people prefer to run head on and unleash as much damage as possible and hope the mob falls. In this case the player would do just that, run at the mob and as they ‘white attacked’ (manual non-special attacks) the game would recognize that style and would automatically track down a path with special abilities on that path.

If the player saw that full on brute attacks weren’t working and shifted to evading constantly and trying to attack the mob at a weak spot, ie: the back, the game would shift the special attacks to reflect as such.

There wouldn’t be hot keys at all, but an evaluation of the player’s fighting stance or style to determine a correlating attack.

Again, ideally full player input via VR would be our dream, but I think for now a system that recognizes player style would be more in-depth. The only ‘hot key’s would be item usage such as a potion for healing, etc.

hurlockbr.4573:

You can try to play Dark Souls, is not a MMORPG but the game have the best combat controls i’ve ever seen.

I hated Dark Souls combat, probably some of the worst I’ve seen. It wasn’t even all the different from the combat in the Elder Scrolls games which predated it, but at least in the Elder Scrolls games your health regenerated afterwards. I can’t stand games that lack health regeneration (this was also one of my biggest gripes with Tera, Aion and a lot of other MMOs).

So what about heal spells, forms, shouts, signets, traps, etc … you mentioned items but these are abilities. Seems like an awful lot of the dreaded hot keys hanging around.

Anyway, I don’t really see how having the game decide which attacks to use for me, based on my movements, is an improvement over having direct control over both my movement and my ability use, with ‘style’ being a reflection of how I make those decisions.

Many abilities are even dual use offensive/defensive and it would bother me to have the game telling me in which context I can actually use it, since making this decision intelligently is to me one of the marks of a skilled player.

But to each his own I guess. I’m not hating on it, and I think it’s a good thing overall if games try out crazy new input modalities. I just don’t see the widely used action bar + hot keys paradigm as some game-wrecking plague, and I don’t think the combat system in GW2 was a letdown.

Kintari.4172:

So what about heal spells, forms, shouts, signets, traps, etc … you mentioned items but these are abilities. Seems like an awful lot of the dreaded hot keys hanging around.

Anyway, I don’t really see how having the game decide which attacks to use for me, based on my movements, is an improvement over having direct control over both my movement and my ability use, with ‘style’ being a reflection of how I make those decisions.

Many abilities are even dual use offensive/defensive and it would bother me to have the game telling me in which context I can actually use it, since making this decision intelligently is to me one of the marks of a skilled player.

But to each his own I guess. I’m not hating on it, and I think it’s a good thing overall if games try out crazy new input modalities. I just don’t see the widely used action bar + hot keys paradigm as some game-wrecking plague, and I don’t think the combat system in GW2 was a letdown.

Well actually I’d prefer no magic or at least not a primary magic focused user. But that’s all personal opinion on how each prefers their fantasy/genres. And don’t misunderstand what I mean, the game wouldn’t force you into what skill you ‘could’ use, it would react to the way you were acting. Shouts / buffs are definitely an issue in that circumstance. But again, I’m not opposed to not having them. Relying on stats on armor / gear and skill alone in terms of evasion / fighting or ‘SWITCH!’ (If you don’t get this reference, it’s okay, I admit to being a nerd) is fine for me. Since a few have said I’d want FFXI-2 I will say that Protect / Shell / Stoneskin spells always were questionable to me, but it was a part of the lore of FF series so it was something I had to deal with.

Again, what I was referring to was ‘my’ ideal game. Obviously I’ll never get something that’s completely suited to what I want. And perhaps the way I visualize a combat system isn’t possible or has too many issues.

I do know though that whether or not I’m dodging/evading, if all I’m doing is hitting a pre-set number of keys to do a pre-set animation/move – well its not too entertaining to me. I have seen systems (a vague type was in FFXI, but have seen it better employed in other games) is having the pre-set skills very short/limited to what they do and allowing the player to make their own sequence/style of skills so at least while the skills are already made, the player chooses how to employ them. I think Aion had some semblance of this, but it’s been a while since I played.

Does that expand anymore on what I mean?

You know, OP, one of the things not mentioned in this thread so far is that GW2 does place an emphasis on choosing how to employ your skills at the best possible timing.

I learned how to dodge out of red circles very early on, but it wasn’t till later when I realized that certain classes (like the thief) had block=>react attacks that responded to timing my keypresses just right to counter an enemy’s attack animation. From there, I learned those normal animations can also be avoided/evaded by a well-timed dodge, along with movement to avoid projectiles.

Interrupts and blocks (I play with blinds and aegis since I main a Guardian) are also most effective dependent on timing.

Ditto boons, conditions (and their removal) involving tactical choice and input from the player.

It won’t help you in the anticipation of a big move building up aspect, as that harkens back to a more turn-based approach, and it may not make you like GW2 combat if your preference is against hotkey triggered combat as a whole, regardless of whether it stresses tactical positioning and timing.

If you just want my preference, I like hot-key combat, especially if the keypress triggers as quickly and with as much sensitivity as GW2 and WoW. It gives combat an immediacy, a very action-based feel.

Jeromai.8203:

You know, OP, one of the things not mentioned in this thread so far is that GW2 does place an emphasis on choosing how to employ your skills at the best possible timing.

I learned how to dodge out of red circles very early on, but it wasn’t till later when I realized that certain classes (like the thief) had block=>react attacks that responded to timing my keypresses just right to counter an enemy’s attack animation. From there, I learned those normal animations can also be avoided/evaded by a well-timed dodge, along with movement to avoid projectiles.

Interrupts and blocks (I play with blinds and aegis since I main a Guardian) are also most effective dependent on timing.

Ditto boons, conditions (and their removal) involving tactical choice and input from the player.

It won’t help you in the anticipation of a big move building up aspect, as that harkens back to a more turn-based approach, and it may not make you like GW2 combat if your preference is against hotkey triggered combat as a whole, regardless of whether it stresses tactical positioning and timing.

If you just want my preference, I like hot-key combat, especially if the keypress triggers as quickly and with as much sensitivity as GW2 and WoW. It gives combat an immediacy, a very action-based feel.

You do point out good points regarding GW2’s hot keys / combat system versus others and improvements as such. And you’re right, I do remember using thief’s death blossom (or whatever it was called) at the right time to evade incoming attacks if the dodge meter was out, etc. And you’re right that it is reactionary to a point.

I guess I just differ as I’d prefer to almost have a combat system free of that. And someone mentioned it sounded more like an action-type MMOFPS. I don’t know about it being in FPS, but action-type, perhaps adding a combo rating system like Devil May Cry, S, A, B, C rating, etc would be interesting. /shrug

Who knows, was just discussion fodder on what people would prefer. I guess personally I’m tired of all MMOs following the same type/format now (regardless of what individual ‘variations’ they might have). It’s always nicer to daydream about changing it up I suppose.

Olfinbedwere.5049:

You can download “combat mode”. It creates a more active combat feel. A lot of people use it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tjK5OI2oAQ

Isn’t combat mode pretty much a dead project now? The reddit thread for the release of 1.1 has an edit that says “I haven’t supported combat mode for three months now, stop sending me messages asking me to update it.”

I realize it is still useful… but for how long until some change comes along that breaks it?