Guild Wars 2

Mountain Man.7901:

VOLKON.1290:

Vertical implies a power progression, it’s that simple.

Having to grind out upgraded gear to take on new game content is vertical progression. It’s that simple.

No, it isn’t. Vertical progression is power increase. This is not power increase.

I am tired of people saying if ascended gear only impacted PVE it would be ok. I hate PVP and will never do it. I bought this game because I was promised horizontal progression in PVE once I got my exotic armor. I played GW1 for five years and loved it because I was never in a vertical treadmill. I bought GW2 because I expected (and was promised in the manifesto) that I would be able to play GW2 for years (including expansions) without a treadmill. Now after only 3 months the game I bought no longer exists. The company I thought I could trust no longer exists.

@ Volkon

Dude/dudette, I apreciatte you being positive and enthusiastic about the game. But still you don’t make sense. You keep playing with semantycs, misusing concepts and displaying incorrect data.

Vertical Progression (AKA stats addition on gear, ergo more power for the “new gear” wielder) is already implemented in the game as is power creep, the unbalance impacting open world, pvp, crafting… at this very moment. There is not middle term. Same thing for infusions, their stats (off/def/omni), their impact is gonna be felt in the open-world (check the info!).

Also, they’ve made pretty clear in their statements that this is just the beginning – personally, keep some faith that they’ll revert the changes, reason because I still post on the forums…

I could agree if you said “I love the change because I’m fond of vertical progression”. What I cannot agree with is self-denial a/o logic-myopia.

Kirani.2690:

I am tired of people saying if ascended gear only impacted PVE it would be ok. I hate PVP and will never do it. I bought this game because I was promised horizontal progression in PVE once I got my exotic armor. I played GW1 for five years and loved it because I was never in a vertical treadmill. I bought GW2 because I expected (and was promised in the manifesto) that I would be able to play GW2 for years (including expansions) without a treadmill. Now after only 3 months the game I bought no longer exists. The company I thought I could trust no longer exists.

Yikes.

They simply felt the need to add a layer of progression to fill the time gap that exists between getting exotics (next to no time these days) and legendaries. Exotics still are the big deal… legendary gear is only available as a ring and back piece and serve to allow deeper delving into Fractals. There’s no treadmill, simply a new tier with new horizontal progression possibilities that will, in fact, prevent a future treadmill from taking hold.

Relax. It’ll be ok.

VOLKON.1290:

Yikes.

They simply felt the need to add a layer of progression to fill the time gap that exists between getting exotics (next to no time these days) and legendaries. Exotics still are the big deal… legendary gear is only available as a ring and back piece and serve to allow deeper delving into Fractals. There’s no treadmill, simply a new tier with new horizontal progression possibilities that will, in fact, prevent a future treadmill from taking hold.

Relax. It’ll be ok.

Again, you’re puking their PR BS before even chewing it. Following your logic (time gap to fill) they could have added another -really cool- cosmetic tier with different same-level stats combinations and effects (lighting, fire, poison, whatever…) – anyway, we had the Mystic Forge and precursors to fill that “time gap”…

On the contrary, the introduced a new tier WITH addition of stats —> Vertical Progression.

Again: you don’t want to understand (denial) or you can’t understand.

Regards

Tusuri.3178:

@ Volkon

Dude/dudette, I apreciatte you being positive and enthusiastic about the game. But still you don’t make sense. You keep playing with semantycs, misusing concepts and displaying incorrect data.

Vertical Progression (AKA stats addition on gear, ergo more power for the “new gear” wielder) is already implemented in the game as is power creep, the unbalance impacting open world, pvp, crafting… at this very moment. There is not middle term. Same thing for infusions, their stats (off/def/omni), their impact is gonna be felt in the open-world (check the info!).

Also, they’ve made pretty clear in their statements that this is just the beginning – personally, keep some faith that they’ll revert the changes, reason because I still post on the forums…

I could agree with you if you said “I love the change because I’m fond of vertical progression”. What I cannot agree with is self-denial a/o logic-myopia.

Dude. Thanks for checking.

Yes, there’s one new “power increase” added with the new tier. No one is denying that. But look where they put it… between exotics and legendary items and, if I understand this correctly, legendary gear will be the equal to ascended in power.

Now, it’s reasonable, based on other MMOs out there, to worry about a power progression beginning to take shape. However, all they’ve done is fill the time gap that existed between exotics and legendary items. One more small step in power, then flat line across with future ascended items.

You worry about the impact of the new power tier, and that’s a valid concern. But, look again. The increase is marginal at best. Let’s put it in perspective… when WoW puts out a new tier of gear and you go up against someone in that new tier while you’re still wearing the prior tier… what happens? Usually the guy in the new tier is doing something unmentionable to your corpse while you formulate a complaint about being one-shot. That’s not the case here. Let’s say someone gets the backpack and ring and goes into WvW. They will not be rolling over anybody there. Skill will still trump the marginal gear advantage. Plus, in the future, there will be additional ways to get ascended gear, and WvW was specifically mentioned as one place it’ll be available. Nutshell… it’ll be available to all that wish to put the time in to it, and future expansions of the tier will be lateral, not vertical.

I understand the concerns. Believe me, if they add a new tier after legendary, for example, I’ll have the same concerns as the fanboy in me gets crushed. But I don’t see that happening, based on what they’ve shown and said. The rage, it is premature.

Tusuri.3178:

VOLKON.1290:

Yikes.

They simply felt the need to add a layer of progression to fill the time gap that exists between getting exotics (next to no time these days) and legendaries. Exotics still are the big deal… legendary gear is only available as a ring and back piece and serve to allow deeper delving into Fractals. There’s no treadmill, simply a new tier with new horizontal progression possibilities that will, in fact, prevent a future treadmill from taking hold.

Relax. It’ll be ok.

Again, you’re puking their PR BS before even chewing it. Following your logic (time gap to fill) they could have added another -really cool- cosmetic tier with different same-level stats combinations and effects (lighting, fire, poison, whatever…) – anyway, we had the Mystic Forge and precursors to fill that “time gap”…

On the contrary, the introduced a new tier WITH addition of stats —> Vertical Progression.

Again: you don’t want to understand (denial) or you can’t understand.

Regards

They could have chose something different. They didn’t. They added one more level to get horizontal from. No one denies this one last tier is vertical. Expanding in the future within this tier, as they’ve stated, is horizontal. New tiers with more power… should that happen they’ll likely lose me as well. (I’ll still play, but be grumpy.)

I appreciate the italicized irony however. Made me giggle.

VOLKON.1290:

How can this be so difficult to grasp? FotM has the first tier of infusions, those that combat agony. The next dungeon will have the next set that combats a different condition. This is a perfect setup for horizontal progression.

Horizontal progression never requires new gear to open new content. In horizontal progression you never end up behind, without some key eq, because you were absent for a year.

VOLKON.1290:

They could have chose something different. They didn’t. They added one more level to get horizontal from. No one denies this one last tier is vertical. Expanding in the future within this tier, as they’ve stated, is horizontal. New tiers with more power… should that happen they’ll likely lose me as well. (I’ll still play, but be grumpy.)

I appreciate the italicized irony however. Made me giggle.

Fair enough, I see we’ve reached some common ground here. I hope you’re right and they clarify ASAP that this is the last tier and also explain how they’re gonna fix all the balance mess they’ve caused (8% at the moment, could get to 20-30% minimum if the whole “power creeped” new tier-set gets implemented).

I’m not too hopeful though, but that’s a matter of faith

Astralporing.1957:

VOLKON.1290:

How can this be so difficult to grasp? FotM has the first tier of infusions, those that combat agony. The next dungeon will have the next set that combats a different condition. This is a perfect setup for horizontal progression.

Horizontal progression never requires new gear to open new content. In horizontal progression you never end up behind, without some key eq, because you were absent for a year.

thats why horizontal progression is better than vertical, because if they say that the new content is difficult, you are sure that the new content is difficult! you havent the magic equipment to overcome the obstacle.

delmarqo.5038:

notebene.3190:

But because it impacts WvW, it would ‘seem’ like it might create a have/have-nots scenario and impact people in other areas because they chose not to participate in that sort of game play. That is what makes it game changing, in my eyes.

I haven’t been paying very close attention to Ascended, so had been assuming Infusions were only for Agony events and that other, Ascended gear was only 4-6% better stats than Exotics.

Is that what affects WvW (where 4-6% can add up to a lot when one side has more players in it than the other)? Or is there something else about Ascended I am missing?

Yeah, that’s why in an earlier post in this thread (or maybe another thread?) I also said that someone else had done a nice ‘math’ write-up, and it ‘seemed’ like it wouldn’t be a big deal, and so ultimately I said I’d be willing to wait 2-3 months until some people started getting this stuff to see if it really impacted my enjoyment and contribution in WvW.

If I’m still running around fixing doors, healing rams, burning Oil and Cannons, burning people off walls and rezzing downed players, making sure I make it to the colored circle in time to get my money…then I wouldn’t have noticed it, and it’s all good.

It’s too early to tell.

As far as PvE goes…bring it on. More powerful people around me makes me go fast! I won’t get invited to any dungeons or reindeer games, but I also don’t ask, so that’s a wash.

Astralporing.1957:

VOLKON.1290:

How can this be so difficult to grasp? FotM has the first tier of infusions, those that combat agony. The next dungeon will have the next set that combats a different condition. This is a perfect setup for horizontal progression.

Horizontal progression never requires new gear to open new content. In horizontal progression you never end up behind, without some key eq, because you were absent for a year.

That’s the beauty… you won’t be behind to get into the new content. You don’t even need ascended gear to enter the dungeons, and from what I hear agony isn’t even started until level 10 (someone correct if wrong, level 7 and haven’t seen it yet). You’ll only need the infusions, so they say, to get deep into the dungeons (deep as in high levels, high agony).

So, you can be gone a year, come back and hop into the newest dungeon, picking up where you left off. Then you can work the ascended gear/ infusions as you go, at the same pace as everyone else.

You know, a year from now (hopefully sooner) they may add more skills to each profession. Possibly more traits. More heart quests. Maybe even an expansion. So, you may be behind your friends and fellow players in that sense, too. Should Anet stop all development when you log off?

I’ve never heard people so upset about the future, about what could be, in a game. Why not enjoy what’s going on now. You’ll feel better.

Tusuri.3178:

Again: you don’t want to understand (denial) or you can’t understand.

I hadn’t considered denial. That certainly explains his strident objections.

VOLKON.1290:

Astralporing.1957:

VOLKON.1290:

How can this be so difficult to grasp? FotM has the first tier of infusions, those that combat agony. The next dungeon will have the next set that combats a different condition. This is a perfect setup for horizontal progression.

Horizontal progression never requires new gear to open new content. In horizontal progression you never end up behind, without some key eq, because you were absent for a year.

That’s the beauty… you won’t be behind to get into the new content. You don’t even need ascended gear to enter the dungeons, and from what I hear agony isn’t even started until level 10 (someone correct if wrong, level 7 and haven’t seen it yet). You’ll only need the infusions, so they say, to get deep into the dungeons (deep as in high levels, high agony).

So, you can be gone a year, come back and hop into the newest dungeon, picking up where you left off. Then you can work the ascended gear/ infusions as you go, at the same pace as everyone else.

But will you be able to find a group to take you in a year? Will you honestly find it easy to get a group that wants someone at low dungeon level and not enough gear to progress as far as the levels will have reached in a year?

They’ve even stated that new content will have the agony mechanic, so you will be behind in every single one of those dungeons starting out if they don’t change that. This is vertical progression, you have no idea what you’re talking about. This is classic WoW stuff. There is a teeny tiny period where the average group will accept new people into a dungeon that requires increased stats.

It’s not so much if you’re actually able to do it in a year, it’s if anyone will do it with you, and that will be a tiny amount. You see it already with story mode dungeons. It’s hard to find a group for one because it provides little benefit to anyone but a leveling character. People are not going to want to do the lower level FotM a year from now, not in a great amount.

“Some people are hellbent on being over-emotional and rage-y, and with these people, any amount of reason or logic cannot combat their irrational drama.”

And some people are being overly hopeful that grind craft 2 won’t live up to it’s name.

slazzy.7309:

You know, a year from now (hopefully sooner) they may add more skills to each profession. Possibly more traits. More heart quests. Maybe even an expansion. So, you may be behind your friends and fellow players in that sense, too. Should Anet stop all development when you log off?

I’ve never heard people so upset about the future, about what could be, in a game. Why not enjoy what’s going on now. You’ll feel better.

I new tier of items to farm, is more and more different from new traits\skills (i hope they add something new on this way too). So yes we can be worried about the future items of this game because they can invalidate the accessibility of the high lvl content for the newcomers.

For me it is a different game, because I was looking for a game without stat progression. GW2 seemed to be just that until this new patch came out. I am not interested in a game that rewards grind with more powerful stats.

I would be happy with a truly optional grind by means that the upgrades you get from it are purely cosmetic. People with hamster wheel mindset who need “something to do” or work towards to in order to feel that a game is worth playing could go after hard-to-get cosmetic gear like that just the same. They’d still look more awesome than everyone else and I really wouldn’t have a problem with that at all.

Even though I really hate grinds personally, I still thought it would be a nice thing to work towards a (cosmetic) legendary weapon at my own pace, let it take a year or two or however long it will.
I have no desire to go stat-chasing in order to stop having a disadvantage in WvW until I catch up with the top though. Not worth it and not fun, I’d rather just stop spending my time in the game altogether because I don’t like these conditions.

Mountain Man.7901:

VOLKON.1290:

Vertical implies a power progression, it’s that simple.

Having to grind out upgraded gear to take on new game content is vertical progression. It’s that simple.

It’s actually slightly more binding then that since they introduced not just a vertical progression but bound us to a single play style to get these armor pieces so it’s a double whammy.

Ba air.1372:

VOLKON.1290:

Astralporing.1957:

VOLKON.1290:

How can this be so difficult to grasp? FotM has the first tier of infusions, those that combat agony. The next dungeon will have the next set that combats a different condition. This is a perfect setup for horizontal progression.

Horizontal progression never requires new gear to open new content. In horizontal progression you never end up behind, without some key eq, because you were absent for a year.

That’s the beauty… you won’t be behind to get into the new content. You don’t even need ascended gear to enter the dungeons, and from what I hear agony isn’t even started until level 10 (someone correct if wrong, level 7 and haven’t seen it yet). You’ll only need the infusions, so they say, to get deep into the dungeons (deep as in high levels, high agony).

So, you can be gone a year, come back and hop into the newest dungeon, picking up where you left off. Then you can work the ascended gear/ infusions as you go, at the same pace as everyone else.

But will you be able to find a group to take you in a year? Will you honestly find it easy to get a group that wants someone at low dungeon level and not enough gear to progress as far as the levels will have reached in a year?

They’ve even stated that new content will have the agony mechanic, so you will be behind in every single one of those dungeons starting out if they don’t change that. This is vertical progression, you have no idea what you’re talking about. This is classic WoW stuff. There is a teeny tiny period where the average group will accept new people into a dungeon that requires increased stats.

It’s not so much if you’re actually able to do it in a year, it’s if anyone will do it with you, and that will be a tiny amount. You see it already with story mode dungeons. It’s hard to find a group for one because it provides little benefit to anyone but a leveling character. People are not going to want to do the lower level FotM a year from now, not in a great amount.

Why wouldn’t you be able to find a group? Exotics are exotics. To get in dungeons, that’s more than enough. Agony is a mechanic for this dungeon… expect new mechanics for new dungeons which quite simply means everyone starts fresh with the new content. Even if they carry agony over, it doesn’t kick in until level 10 I believe… you can go into Fractals now without agony gear, as everyone that has gone in so far has. You’re confusing the mechanics that allow deeper progression with power.

Mountain Man.7901:

Tusuri.3178:

Again: you don’t want to understand (denial) or you can’t understand.

I hadn’t considered denial. That certainly explains his strident objections.

When you can’t attack the argument, attack the person delivering the argument. Once again, that holds true I see.

VOLKON.1290:

Ba air.1372:

VOLKON.1290:

Astralporing.1957:

VOLKON.1290:

How can this be so difficult to grasp? FotM has the first tier of infusions, those that combat agony. The next dungeon will have the next set that combats a different condition. This is a perfect setup for horizontal progression.

Horizontal progression never requires new gear to open new content. In horizontal progression you never end up behind, without some key eq, because you were absent for a year.

That’s the beauty… you won’t be behind to get into the new content. You don’t even need ascended gear to enter the dungeons, and from what I hear agony isn’t even started until level 10 (someone correct if wrong, level 7 and haven’t seen it yet). You’ll only need the infusions, so they say, to get deep into the dungeons (deep as in high levels, high agony).

So, you can be gone a year, come back and hop into the newest dungeon, picking up where you left off. Then you can work the ascended gear/ infusions as you go, at the same pace as everyone else.

But will you be able to find a group to take you in a year? Will you honestly find it easy to get a group that wants someone at low dungeon level and not enough gear to progress as far as the levels will have reached in a year?

They’ve even stated that new content will have the agony mechanic, so you will be behind in every single one of those dungeons starting out if they don’t change that. This is vertical progression, you have no idea what you’re talking about. This is classic WoW stuff. There is a teeny tiny period where the average group will accept new people into a dungeon that requires increased stats.

It’s not so much if you’re actually able to do it in a year, it’s if anyone will do it with you, and that will be a tiny amount. You see it already with story mode dungeons. It’s hard to find a group for one because it provides little benefit to anyone but a leveling character. People are not going to want to do the lower level FotM a year from now, not in a great amount.

Why wouldn’t you be able to find a group? Exotics are exotics. To get in dungeons, that’s more than enough. Agony is a mechanic for this dungeon… expect new mechanics for new dungeons which quite simply means everyone starts fresh with the new content. Even if they carry agony over, it doesn’t kick in until level 10 I believe… you can go into Fractals now without agony gear, as everyone that has gone in so far has. You’re confusing the mechanics that allow deeper progression with power.

That is basically the definition of power creep/vertical progression. (To progression UP you need stats that go UP! Vertical = up by the way, I don’t think you understand that.) People are not going to want exotics for groups for FotM in a year for now, they’re gonna want ascended gear. Again, just because you CAN do the dungeon, doesn’t mean people will do it with you.

You can get into the dungeon but the likely hood of getting a group is going to drop dramatically. People are less likely to do the dungeons that get your exotics, as the FotM gives you better gear. It’s harder to get exotics out of Orr because people are doing the new content. You don’t see how this is vertical progression? Older content is becoming less important, that is one of the crowning flaws of power creep.

Right now people can get groups and go in without agony fairly easily. That will stop soon if it isn’t balanced. You will not see this in a year if something isn’t changed. This is called power creep and you see it in WoW. I play WoW, this is not a new concept for me.

StormGryffen.7638:

A lack of endgame content was what killed SWtoR, for the most part.

Yes it did. But SWTOR never said that their end game was throughout the entire game and completely different from traditional MMOs. Arenanet did.

You may like the introduction of vertical progression. Some do. Some don’t. But can someone at least acknowledge that Arenanet has changed its design approach that it has had in place and talked about for years. Can Mike O’Brien, President, or Colin Johanson, Lead Content Designer, explain this change in direction and how it maintains their “uniqueness” in the MMOrpg marketplace.

My original question was “how does changing to vertical progression make GW2 a unique, different MMO.” Horizontal progression did because its competitors did not offer it. It appealed to a niche market that disliked forced gear treadmills and grind.

The game appears to have lost track of its product design direction. If so, that is even worse than just introducing “new gear with slightly better stats and more to come.”

GW2 cannot compete with WOW and its WOW clones on the same playing field. Arenanet knew this and created 2 games with successful box sales to appeal to a niche, an anti-WOW if you will. It cannot begin offering the same things as those and expect long-term customer loyalty. SWTOR tried and failed miserably.

Source:
Arenanet article https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-endgame-reimagined/
“Guild Wars 2>News>The Endgame Reimagined
The Endgame Reimagined
by Mike Zadorojny on September 13, 2012”

In the past, we’ve talked about how in Guild Wars 2 we designed the game to avoid a common problem in many MMOs: grinding through chunks of boring, repetitive content to get to the occasional pockets of fun. With Guild Wars 2, we wanted the entire gameplay experience to be something that players enjoyed, regardless of how much time they could dedicate.

When we looked at the concept of “endgame” for Guild Wars 2, we designed it the same way. We didn’t want the endgame to be something you could only experience after a hundred hours of gameplay or after you reached some arbitrary number. We wanted it to be something that players got to experience every step along the way, spread out across the entire world of Tyria, so we’ve introduced game elements that you’d normally associate with “endgame” at every level and every possible opportunity."

Source:

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”
-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.”
– Colin Johanson

VOLKON.1290:

They could have chose something different. They didn’t. They added one more level to get horizontal from. No one denies this one last tier is vertical. Expanding in the future within this tier, as they’ve stated, is horizontal. New tiers with more power… should that happen they’ll likely lose me as well. (I’ll still play, but be grumpy.)

I hope you are right. But let’s look at the reality.

Arenanet said they made this change to appeal to “dedicated players.” Its actually people who need a carrot to be convinced that their character is progressing. Once those people consume the carrot, how will they keep getting that feeling?

If those “dedicated players” did not like the idea of horizontal progression now (cosmetic differences only in max stat gear), why would they like it in the future?

To keep appealing to those “dedicated players,” Arenanet will have to continue to offer new gear stat tiers (new carrots for consumption). If they don’t, those people will stop playing, right. Isn’t that the Arenanet fear today and cause for this redesign of their game?

The above is the definition of gear treadmill. If at some point, Arenanet stops the treadmill, the very people they did this for will stop playing the game. Which path do you think Arenanet will go down now?

Volkon:

They did not put this tier “between exotics and legendary.”

They put it above exotic, then moved legendary above that. They are adding two new tiers above the previous highest tier.

Mountain Man.7901:

VOLKON.1290:

Vertical implies a power progression, it’s that simple.

Having to grind out upgraded gear to take on new game content is vertical progression. It’s that simple.

It is that simple but you just can’t fix stupid. Talk to this guy till you’re blue in the face he still won’t get it.

dalendria.3762:

VOLKON.1290:

They could have chose something different. They didn’t. They added one more level to get horizontal from. No one denies this one last tier is vertical. Expanding in the future within this tier, as they’ve stated, is horizontal. New tiers with more power… should that happen they’ll likely lose me as well. (I’ll still play, but be grumpy.)

I hope you are right. But let’s look at the reality.

Arenanet said they made this change to appeal to “dedicated players.” Its actually people who need a carrot to be convinced that their character is progressing. Once those people consume the carrot, how will they keep getting that feeling?

If those “dedicated players” did not like the idea of horizontal progression now (cosmetic differences only in max stat gear), why would they like it in the future?

To keep appealing to those “dedicated players,” Arenanet will have to continue to offer new gear stat tiers (new carrots for consumption). If they don’t, those people will stop playing, right. Isn’t that the Arenanet fear today and cause for this redesign of their game?

The above is the definition of gear treadmill. If at some point, Arenanet stops the treadmill, the very people they did this for will stop playing the game. Which path do you think Arenanet will go down now?

The problem is that other games do the “carrot” system much better than GW2 so those players were already destined to move onto other games once they’d hit max stats in GW2. Instead of focusing on the group they marketed to, the one that doesn’t want difficult to get max stat gear (rare cosmetics are different), they are trying to appeal to the carrot eaters, but in doing so they’ll lose those who bought into the game because it didn’t have gear grind. Then, once the carrot eaters realize other games do it better, or another new MMO promises something “better” they’ll just jump to that one and GW2 will slowly die off.

This change has threatened the very existence of the game, even if the stat difference on the gear is small, the fact that they even made it in the first place is very concerning on where they are heading with the game and also leaves many feeling betrayed by Anet as it was repeated stated before release that the game would have easy to obtain max stat gear.

I think I should repost what I posted some days ago:

Well, i think its not the problem that the new gear adds slightly higher stats. The problem is that it’s opening an road to progression. Until now you could do whatever you want as often as you want and when you want, without having to worry that would miss something. Suddleny there is something to miss. And it’s not that you miss a special one time experience but that you miss something which could influence your future experience in the game.

So you have to make decisions wether you keep your slowmode playingstyle or go on and take the challenge to progess. So it is not so much about if you will actually miss something but about having to decide if you want to take the risk to miss something later on. And some people do not even have that choice because they do not have as much sparetime they would like to spend in the game. That’s what is worrying for some people.

I think that is the problem many people are having and I can only hope that A-Net is going for compromises to keep tyria open for everyone.

I’ve made my decision not to go for progression (which was indeed never a question for me) and to stay as long as I can have fun. I’ve made this decision in other games before and I thought I would not have to make it here but with the new gear beeing added and no real clarification about what will go on in the future the game has turned into an MMO like many others. And thats is what is sad for me. (Still kinda hope this is only a big misunderstanding somehow )

Wrong. Now GW2 is a copy of any random mmo.

Not so interesting gameplay with the class ( only resumed with auto-attack and somes skills, sometime )
And grind fest for your gear.

Finaly, really classic and not so interesting.

But, yes GW2 is very different of what GW1 was offering ( gameplay size )

If the only reason people were coming to Guild Wars 2 was because it had different types of gear (or easily achieved stats), I don’t really understand why they would consider GW2 anything more than a less original game than GW1.

The attributes of max-level, end-game armour certainly wasn’t what drew me to the game – I often don’t even reach that point because it isn’t the reason I play an MMORPG. I think GW2 is a different and unique experience for many good design choices (not just a power plateau, which I consider still mostly intact), but it is different to WoW in the same way that Vanguard is different to EQ, or Allods Online is different to LOTRO. They are all iterating the same basic model while adding new twists and features. To get caught up in the hype that another level-based, gear-based, hack & slash RPG is going to be The Next Big Thing I think reveals a certain naivete in regards to the history of the genre.

Personally, I’d like to see an explanation for why stat-focused players feel their concerns about ascended gear are the more valid or objective than any other perspective, one that does not rely upon subjective terms like “grind”, ‘“treadmill”, “vertical/horizontal progression”, “power creep”, “balance”, “casual” and “hardcore” – all of which can mean entirely different things to different people and usually only reveal the personal preferences of the speaker. I think I’d also personally be more receptive to that argument if I didn’t look down on heavy Diku-derivative gameplay (which was there all along) as much as stat-focused players look down on post-release gear upgrades, so any attempt to canonize pre-Lost Shores GW2 as a mind-blowing and genre-breaking new phenomenon just irritates me.

The only thing that made GW2 different from any other MMO out there was the lack of gear grind and gated content.

Other than that niche, everything in this game has been done better by other games.

Too bad they decided to skirt chase the WoW crowd, because that’s worked out so well for all those other dead MMOs.

VOLKON.1290:

Mountain Man.7901:

VOLKON.1290:

there’s no indications they’ll keep pushing further and further tiers out there to keep you chasing the unobtainable.

This is, in fact, exactly what they’ll be doing.

“This is just the beginning. In November, we’re only adding the first level of Infusions and Ascended Rings and Back slots, so that leaves us a lot of room to build upon these levels of Item progression in future content.

“As we release more new end game content in the future, you’ll see more Infusions and Ascended item types being added to the game. Eventually, you’ll be able to kit yourself out with a full set of Ascended gear and high end Infusions to help give you the edge in end game content.”

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/linsey-murdock-unveils-new-high-end-ascended-gear/

You’re reading this wrong. This is exactly the opposite of what you claim. This is horizontal progression, not vertical. More infusions and ascended items is expanding the tier horizontally, not pushing a vertical treadmill. I stand by my statement and use your quote as evidence… there’s no indication that they’ll keep pushing out new tiers of gear and having you perpetually chase the uncatchable.

Well that’s kinda horizontal progression as long as they don’t start gradually releasing normal infusions followed by rare followed by exotic followed by ascended infusions. It also depends on how much grinding is required to obtain said items and how much difference they make gameplay-wise. It also comes down to how much faith you have on Anet to stick to their word. I mean they heavily implied that legendaries would have the same stats as exotics (functioning essentially as fancy skins) and that those stats would be the cap but then they changed their minds.

I run a critical build. If every piece of ascended jewellery gives me +2% critical damage over the exotic berserker counterpart (as is the case with the red ring of death compared to the berserker ring with exquisite jewel) then a full set of ascended trinkets potentially gives over 12% more critical damage. Ascended armor and weapons on top of that probably give an extra 10-15%. that sums to over 20% more damage for me 80% of the time (my average critical chance).

That makes a huge difference in pve and WvWvW not even considering additional stats and potentially critical damage from infusions. … I thought I was done with this sorta thing when I got full exotics which is why I bothered spending all that gold (and game hours) on obtaining them. I was under the impression that they had max stats not that 3 months later they’d start gradually releasing items increasing my average damage by 2% each minimum. For pete’s sake the 50 ectos required to craft the back item alone currently cost 12g.

VOLKON.1290:

Astralporing.1957:

VOLKON.1290:

How can this be so difficult to grasp? FotM has the first tier of infusions, those that combat agony. The next dungeon will have the next set that combats a different condition. This is a perfect setup for horizontal progression.

Horizontal progression never requires new gear to open new content. In horizontal progression you never end up behind, without some key eq, because you were absent for a year.

That’s the beauty… you won’t be behind to get into the new content. You don’t even need ascended gear to enter the dungeons, and from what I hear agony isn’t even started until level 10 (someone correct if wrong, level 7 and haven’t seen it yet). You’ll only need the infusions, so they say, to get deep into the dungeons (deep as in high levels, high agony).

So, you can be gone a year, come back and hop into the newest dungeon, picking up where you left off. Then you can work the ascended gear/ infusions as you go, at the same pace as everyone else.

So, i will need a new gear. Not a horizontal progress, sorry.

VOLKON.1290:

Mountain Man.7901:

Tusuri.3178:

Again: you don’t want to understand (denial) or you can’t understand.

I hadn’t considered denial. That certainly explains his strident objections.

When you can’t attack the argument, attack the person delivering the argument. Once again, that holds true I see.

I have not only attacked your arguments but demolished them. Yes, I did take a personal swipe at you, but to pretend I haven’t otherwise addressed your arguments is intellectually dishonest.

Southern Lord.7254:

dalendria.3762:

I appreciate everyone’s feedback but please stay on topic. They have already locked one of my other posts. Do not want to give them a reason to lock this one.

I would really like someone to explain if they believe adding “gear stat progression” makes GW2 distinct now, a different MMO. And if you feel it does not, why not.

All I’ll say is this:

As a level 13 Thief, I am looking forward to earning better weapons and items for my class. I want this feeling to last until level 80. I am also excited that there is now gear for me to aim towards, that is not mandatory for every player, and is entirely optional.

The problem there is, this game was already intended as a thoughly balanced game in terms of items. Casual players could steadily work zones for karma exotics which was exactly the same as exotic gear farmed in dungeons. The WvWvW playing field was more or less level.

In one fell swoop, all future balance has been thrown out of the window and now, the players are forced into a very standard grind your gear or die method.

“that is not mandatory for every player” Your very wrong, it’ll become very mandatory for every player to have ascended items, you want to do new future dungeons? You want to remain viable in WvW? Anet pointed you in one direction for you to travel and essentially gave the player two options now, grind for your ascended gear or quit.

I made a post a few days ago about Welfare Ascended items, and I stand by that fact ~ the current situation will almost guarantee core-casual players will need to be feed these items in the future unless anet somehow manages to fix it so every player can get gear. Personally, the biggest mistake they made was involving the MF for ascended, that alone made everyones fears a reality, and also made the pursuit of karma almost pointless too.

And by fix, I mean every player can get ascended gear without a month+ gold farm grind per item.

Answering the title:
Yup.

It was the best MMO on the market until the patch hit.

kittenit.

This game is not the same game that existed prior to the update. The previous game adhered to a manifesto that I bought into completely. I played GW1 for five years and loved it because there was no vertical progression after level 20. Everything I did in that game was for the fun of it (elite skill captures, farming for green items, running dungeons etc.). Prior to this update of GW2 I had the same sense of freedom in this game (four level 80 characters with full exotics) that I still enjoyed playing. Now I fell like I have been lied to and cannot trust anything ANET says again. This does not contribute to play your way and have fun!

To add: What gap were the devs talking about , that ascended had to fill?
Legendary = Exotic in terms of stats. What gap?

Oh the one you never told anyone about, that you just made up. So you could appease the 1% hardcore gamers that hop from game to game every 3 months. Right. Fill that kitten up with ascended. I cant wait until these same people leave this game for WoW or some other crappy MMO, and GW2 is left in a state of steaming crap because NCsoft or whoever is calling the shots thought it was best to cater to those people in the first place.

Pro Tip: You had a loyal-awsome fan base. You left it. Do not deny it.