Guild Wars 2

Firstly off I’d like to clarify this is absolutely not a troll thread, in spite of the fact some of the things I am about to say may seem controversial to some people.

Ever since I started playing GW2, there is something about the game that just doesn’t sit well with me, and I have been wondering if it’s just me or if there are other people who have had the same thoughts as I do. This is about the fact that in this game, the nordic theme is priviledged with a race of its own, the Norns, while the rest of “humans” are all crammed into one single race. Not only do they have the priviledge of having their own race, but it’s also a race of heroic giants, twice as big as humans.

As a reminder, “Nordicism” is a real belief that has been an issue in the past century and still continues to exist, it’s absolutely not a mere conspirancy. It is the belief that people of nordic descent are superior to the rest of humanity. It’s the very infamous “Aryan race” ideal supported by 1930’s Germany and still continued to this day through mass murderers like Anders Breivik or certain extreme right wing parties of the West. Nordicism is obviously a very disgusting idea for anyone who isn’t nordic (and for any nordic person with enough honesty).

And I mean, when I see that in this game there is a race that is almost a copy/paste of the aryan ideal, I can’t help but ask myself what is the purpose of this race? Why is one specific culture from our world being highlighted in this game while every other culture is crammed into “humans”? While you can argue that they are not necessarily being presented as better than humans, they are certainly being priviledged. Would a non-human playable race like bears have been a more suitable choice for the nordic theme than to make these idealistic giants?

I hope there’s a real, honest reason for this race existing in game and that it’s not a matter of nordicist beliefs. Please let me know what you people think.

Norns are a mix of Native American and Nordic culture.

Vikkela.7261:

Norns are a mix of Native American and Nordic culture.

I am not sure I see the Native American referrence in Norns, can you please elaborate?

Shamans, spirits, nature

While they are being painted as stubborn, stupid and alcoholic which are some negative stereotypes about Nordics but no Nordic person has been complaining about that if they would actually care

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Vikkela.7261:

Norns are a mix of Native American and Nordic culture.

I am not sure I see the Native American referrence in Norns, can you please elaborate?

Their entire religious belief system is heavily taken from various Native American beliefs.

Before you get offended by perceived prejudice maybe you should educate yourself on the subject that offends you.

Cyrill Faust.9340:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Vikkela.7261:

Norns are a mix of Native American and Nordic culture.

I am not sure I see the Native American referrence in Norns, can you please elaborate?

Their entire religious belief system is heavily taken from various Native American beliefs.

Before you get offended by perceived prejudice maybe you should educate yourself on the subject that offends you.

I think you should keep your desire to be confrontational to yourself. Instead of trying to attack me on what I’m educated about or what I am not, explain your point of view.

Now is this Native American comparison a personal interpretation, or is this official? Because it seems to me that this race is a whole lot more Nordic than it is Native American.

Vikkela.7261:

Shamans, spirits, nature

While they are being painted as stubborn, stupid and alcoholic which are some negative stereotypes about Nordics but no Nordic person has been complaining about that if they would actually care

Perhaps they are not presented as better than the average human. But they are certainly being priviledged with their own race.

-_-’

/15priviligedchars

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Vikkela.7261:

Norns are a mix of Native American and Nordic culture.

I am not sure I see the Native American referrence in Norns, can you please elaborate?

Norn combine more themes than Nordic. They also draw inspiration from D&D’s dwarves, and several tribal cultures through history, like native north americans, and they even have a bit of Australian Aboriginal in there.

Also, norn are not a ‘race’ in the real life sense, but a species. Probably related to humans, but still a different species nonetheless. And so you’ll find lots of different shapes and colors within them, from relatively short norn to the tallest ones, from platinum blond to pitch black hair, from snow pale to panther black skin.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Cyrill Faust.9340:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Vikkela.7261:

Norns are a mix of Native American and Nordic culture.

I am not sure I see the Native American referrence in Norns, can you please elaborate?

Their entire religious belief system is heavily taken from various Native American beliefs.

Before you get offended by perceived prejudice maybe you should educate yourself on the subject that offends you.

I think you should keep your desire to be confrontational to yourself.

Now is this Native American comparison a personal interpretation, or is this official? Because it seems to me that this race is a whole lot more Nordic than it is Native American.

Isn’t that your personal interpretation then, where does anything “official” say the norn are based on Nordic culture? Along that line what is “Nordic culture”? You seem like someone who is just looking to be offended by something.

I think you’re making the mistake of including norns in with humanity. The way you say ‘the rest of humans’ Norn are a completely different race, and like all the races in GW are neither superior or inferior to humans. The fact that they look more human than the other races doesn’t make them human. If they looked like giant birds but still came from the north and dressed like Scandinavian warriors of old, would you still feel the same?

Also, other than the fact that they’re bigger, is there any possible example of norn being portrayed as a superior race to humans? They’re just different. Sure Anet has clearly been influenced by vikings when creating the norn, but as others have said, that’s not the only culture they’ve drawn on.

Norn NPCs and player characters are available in a variety of skin colours, all are treated equally, I’ve not seen any norn NPCs show any inherent racism of any kind, which is more than I can say for asura.

If you’re looking to be offended by something, you can interpret almost anything badly, but I really don’t see anything sinister about the norn.

Seems to you. To me, the Norn seem much more Native American, than some Aryan-type segment of the population. Something like that never crossed my mind. I think you are stretching here.

What would you have the game do? Remove the Norn? That seems highly unlikely. I could only suggest not interacting with the Norn, if you find them offensive; or, barring that, refrain from subjecting yourself to Tyria, in toto.

Good luck.

Hi there!
I am Ormgeirr Dal, a necromancer lately from Hoelbrak. I believe in the Spirits of the Wild and why should I not, for I have met some of them personally. I can assume the form of a Raven, Bear or Snowleopard. I drink too little to earn respect of my people that way, so I must work harder to make a name for myself with deeds that get told.

My name loosely translates to Serpentspear and it has always been taught to me that I am a weapon against Jormag. I am not insane enough to think I could vanguish such a creature alone, but thankfully I have met many valiant heroes of all five races during my travels. This includes humans of several ethnic backgrounds: Krytan, Ascalonian, Elonian and Canthan.

I have never, however, met these races you speak about. Where on Tyria do they live?

All games have sterotypical races.

This game only has 2 unique races, charr and sylvari. The rest are copy paste.

You can’t be 100% original all of the time, and it’s the stereotypes that drag people into the game.

Cyrill Faust.9340:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Cyrill Faust.9340:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Vikkela.7261:

Norns are a mix of Native American and Nordic culture.

I am not sure I see the Native American referrence in Norns, can you please elaborate?

Their entire religious belief system is heavily taken from various Native American beliefs.

Before you get offended by perceived prejudice maybe you should educate yourself on the subject that offends you.

I think you should keep your desire to be confrontational to yourself.

Now is this Native American comparison a personal interpretation, or is this official? Because it seems to me that this race is a whole lot more Nordic than it is Native American.

Isn’t that your personal interpretation then, where does anything “official” say the norn are based on Nordic culture? Along that line what is “Nordic culture”? You seem like someone who is just looking to be offended by something.

They live in snowy lands. They have nordic names. They have nordic accents. They are given some of the stereotypes of vikings. Their appearence is a copy/paste of the Aryan race ideal. Their name is “Norns”. I’m pretty sure that 99.99% people on GW2 associate Norns with nordic culture. Maybe I’m crazy but it seems to me they are indeed inspired of scandinavian culture.

@Tacit Ronin. You make some valid points. Its true that you can chose to be offended by anything and everything. What I am trying to do in this thread isn’t to tell everyone they should be offended. I am asking if there is in fact a reason to be offended with this Norn race.
But I am curious, what’s the story about the Asura being a sign of racism? I can’t see where you are going with that and I’ve never heard anything about it.

So the more beer a race can drink the more superior it is ? Cool story

Cyrill Faust.9340:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Cyrill Faust.9340:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Vikkela.7261:

Norns are a mix of Native American and Nordic culture.

I am not sure I see the Native American referrence in Norns, can you please elaborate?

Their entire religious belief system is heavily taken from various Native American beliefs.

Before you get offended by perceived prejudice maybe you should educate yourself on the subject that offends you.

I think you should keep your desire to be confrontational to yourself.

Now is this Native American comparison a personal interpretation, or is this official? Because it seems to me that this race is a whole lot more Nordic than it is Native American.

Isn’t that your personal interpretation then, where does anything “official” say the norn are based on Nordic culture? Along that line what is “Nordic culture”? You seem like someone who is just looking to be offended by something.

you don’t seem to know how to argue a point without insulting people. you should go educate yourself in that respect too.

Gw1 Factions was inspired in european culture, Prophecies had an asian theme, and Nightfall did the same with egipcian/arabic/african theme.

All this “racist” bullkitten is only in your head…

PD: Other races of gw2 have also things of various cultures. Charrs military is based on Rome Empire and Mongoles and its dance is the “Haka”, a military dance from Pacific Islands cultures. Sylvari dance is Indian…

Dawnbreaker.6215:

But I am curious, what’s the story about the Asura being a sign of racism? I can’t see where you are going with that and I’ve never heard anything about it.

The term ‘bookah’ is a slur against non-asura. From the wiki.
’"Bookah" is a large, loud, bellowing, and dumb imaginary creature that the Asura used to frighten their children. Since their surfacing, they use the term to refer to those they view as inferior beings, which to them is almost everyone who is not an Asura.

Then again, I’m not offended by that either seeing as a big part of asura schtick is how they view themselves as intellectually superior. But it is there, and it is more prejudice than the norn exhibit.

The vast majority of fantasy races are based on one culture or aspect of humanity. We can’t draw on anything else for sentient races and their cultures because (as far as we know) there aren’t any others in real-life.

Within this game it’s visible in all the playable races. The charr are based on ancient Roman (and to a lesser extent Greek) culture, particularly their military. The sylvari have a lot of Celtic and Arthurian influences and the asura are basically stereotypical scientists displaced into a fantasy setting.

The human cultures are all mixed together because that’s what modern day Kryta is. In GW1 there were several different human nations: Ascalon based on Medieval Western Europe, Kryta which was similar but with a stronger Mediterranean influence, Elona which had African and Middle Eastern themed cultures and Cantha with Asian and (oddly enough) Gothic cultures.

But Cantha was cut off from the rest of the world, Elona was taken over by Palawa Joko and then isolated from the Tyrian continent by Zhaitan and Ascalon was lost to the charr. Refugees from all of them came to Kryta and brought their culture with them. It’s like Tyria’s America.

And yes the norn are based on Nordic culture and mythology (even the name norn is from Nordic myths, although it referred to people more like the Greek Fates).

But having said that I really don’t understand your point. The norn are not portrayed as being superior or more privileged than any other race. It’s not uncommon for NPCs of other races to stereotype them as poorly educated, uncooperative, blood-minded, drunks who are only useful to have around if you want something smashed. Which in some cases is not entirely untrue. I certainly don’t see them as an idealised race.

sigh…

Humans have four ethnic backgrounds. Have you missed that somehow? We just see very few of the Elonian or Canthan right now, because their home continents are not in game (yet). Ascalonians are the equivalent of Northern Europeans while Krytans are more Mediterranean.

It is interesting to hear that the Norn represent the ideal of some people in how they look. Usually one hears just how terribly ugly they are.

If there’s any race that thinks itself superior to other races, it’s Asura.

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

All games have sterotypical races.

This game only has 2 unique races, charr and sylvari. The rest are copy paste.

You can’t be 100% original all of the time, and it’s the stereotypes that drag people into the game.

They are unique? Last time I checked, almost all MMOs had the mandatory “beast” race and nature loving Elves. The flip the philosophies and overall technology design around, but its still pretty much the same. Hell, the Sylvari even where Wood Elves originally. If Charr and Sylvari are unique in GW2, then Norn, Asura and Humans are exactly as unique.

Danikat.8537:

The vast majority of fantasy races are based on one culture or aspect of humanity. We can’t draw on anything else for sentient races and their cultures because (as far as we know) there aren’t any others in real-life.

Within this game it’s visible in all the playable races. The charr are based on ancient Roman (and to a lesser extent Greek) culture, particularly their military. The sylvari have a lot of Celtic and Arthurian influences and the asura are basically stereotypical scientists displaced into a fantasy setting.

The human cultures are all mixed together because that’s what modern day Kryta is. In GW1 there were several different human nations: Ascalon based on Medieval Western Europe, Kryta which was similar but with a stronger Mediterranean influence, Elona which had African and Middle Eastern themed cultures and Cantha with Asian and (oddly enough) Gothic cultures.

But Cantha was cut off from the rest of the world, Elona was taken over by Palawa Joko and then isolated from the Tyrian continent by Zhaitan and Ascalon was lost to the charr. Refugees from all of them came to Kryta and brought their culture with them. It’s like Tyria’s America.

And yes the norn are based on Nordic culture and mythology (even the name norn is from Nordic myths, although it referred to people more like the Greek Fates).

But having said that I really don’t understand your point. The norn are not portrayed as being superior or more privileged than any other race. It’s not uncommon for NPCs of other races to stereotype them as poorly educated, uncooperative, blood-minded, drunks who are only useful to have around if you want something smashed. Which in some cases is not entirely untrue. I certainly don’t see them as an idealised race.

Well if I may rephrase my idea. The thing is that, while Norns don’t necessarily get portrayed as superior to other races, the nordic theme still has its own, exclusive race. There isn’t a specific race for Mediterraneans, there isn’t a specific race for Africans, Japanese, Persian or other cultures, like you just said, those all count as “humans”, but in the case of the Nordic culture, it gets to have its own race, map and lore.

But I will give it to you that you do make a good point about the Roman theme having its own race as well, the Charr, although the Charr are less obvious (they don’t seem to have Roman names like the Imperials in TES have).

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Firstly off I’d like to clarify this is absolutely not a troll thread, in spite of the fact some of the things I am about to say may seem controversial to some people.

Ever since I started playing GW2, there is something about the game that just doesn’t sit well with me, and I have been wondering if it’s just me or if there are other people who have had the same thoughts as I do. This is about the fact that in this game, the nordic theme is priviledged with a race of its own, the Norns, while the rest of “humans” are all crammed into one single race. Not only do they have the priviledge of having their own race, but it’s also a race of heroic giants, twice as big as humans.

As a reminder, “Nordicism” is a real belief that has been an issue in the past century and still continues to exist, it’s absolutely not a mere conspirancy. It is the belief that people of nordic descent are superior to the rest of humanity. It’s the very infamous “Aryan race” ideal supported by 1930’s Germany and still continued to this day through mass murderers like Anders Breivik or certain extreme right wing parties of the West. Nordicism is obviously a very disgusting idea for anyone who isn’t nordic (and for any nordic person with enough honesty).

And I mean, when I see that in this game there is a race that is almost a copy/paste of the aryan ideal, I can’t help but ask myself what is the purpose of this race? Why is one specific culture from our world being highlighted in this game while every other culture is crammed into “humans”? While you can argue that they are not necessarily being presented as better than humans, they are certainly being priviledged. Would a non-human playable race like bears have been a more suitable choice for the nordic theme than to make these idealistic giants?

I hope there’s a real, honest reason for this race existing in game and that it’s not a matter of nordicist beliefs. Please let me know what you people think.

Yes, yes they are nordicist! hides

Since you had to say : I am not a troll, I assumed you are. Then I read what you wrote. Yep, troll confirmed

Dawnbreaker.6215:

They live in snowy lands.

Well, more correctly they live in a snowy mountain range in the middle of the continent. Which indicates that they’re based on the Nepalese. Or perhaps Incas in the Andes.

They have nordic names.

Granted.

They have nordic accents.

No… like almost everyone in GW2, they have American accents.

They are given some of the stereotypes of vikings.

Horned helmets, fight on ships, raid peasants and monasteries? Not that I’ve noticed.

Their appearence is a copy/paste of the Aryan race ideal.

With infinite variety of skin and eye colours, plenty of tattoos, ugly hairy men, and busty women? I think you’re getting confused with the ‘bikie gang’ ideal.

Their name is “Norns”.

No doubt an homage to the villainous race from Tad Williams’ marvelous trilogy Memory, Sorrow and Thorn.

And, of course, if any more confirmation were needed: Scandinavians in real life are very fond of socialism. Whereas the Norns don’t even have a government.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Please let me know what you people think.

I think you’re full of hooey.

The Norns come nowhere close to the “Aryna race ideal”. They are not racial supremacists. They do not look down on others for not being Norn. They admire individual accomplishments, regardless of race, which is far more enlightened. Yes, there is a bell curve – you’ll hear a Norn in the Great Hall referring to a “whiny Krytan”. But they also have built monuments to the Asura Snaff for his accomplishments.

You can now sleep soundly again in the knowledge that ANet is not trying to subliminally subvert you with their vision of the one true Master Race that should rule the world.

MithranArkanere.8957:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Vikkela.7261:

Norns are a mix of Native American and Nordic culture.

I am not sure I see the Native American referrence in Norns, can you please elaborate?

Norn combine more themes than Nordic. They also draw inspiration from D&D’s dwarves, and several tribal cultures through history, like native north americans, and they even have a bit of Australian Aboriginal in there.

Not supporting the OP in any way (because it’s bobbins), but I wanted to say totemism is also part of Norse and Germanic history. It might be a default to think of Native Americans for example, but it is more global than that (although it will be different depending on where and when you look).
Those D&D dwarves also draw on Nordic and Germanic cultures via Tolkien.

Norn are a non human race inspired by norse mythology. Even if they were depicted as superior, they are a fantasy race. Now go complain in a gaming forum centered on Japan games how they are all nippocentric and how you are offended, especially with that WWII thing.

Oh look, another thready polluted by political correctness
Noone is forcing you to play Norn if you dont like their lore.

It’s just you…

ok, since no one here even has the slightest idea what nordic culture is, it’s clear no one has the right to judge (especially the OP with his offensive non-educational thoughts).

i have bin studying the nordic culture for quite some time, they are more the smart warriors then the barbaric lot ppl think they are.
you talk about slaughter?
look at the templars and say again how horrible the nordic warriors were, templars killed more in one week then nordic viking did in a year.
better yet, nordic vikings killed for loot, templars killed simply because others didn’t believe in their religion.

take some lessons of history before you talk bad about a culture, this simply shows how much a troll you really are.

oh and btw, the norns in nordic mytholigy are 3 women, past, present and future who hold every line of life.
when you are supposed to die, they are the ones to cut your life line, literally.

norns in game are based on nordic culture but have the religion of native americans, you can see it in they craftmanship.
nordic vikings have a certain kind of style with inscriptions, native americans like to decorate their weapons with feathers and straps.
just look at their weapons, they have both styles, decorations of native americans with inscriptions of nordic origin.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Well if I may rephrase my idea. The thing is that, while Norns don’t necessarily get portrayed as superior to other races, the nordic theme still has its own, exclusive race. There isn’t a specific race for Mediterraneans, there isn’t a specific race for Africans, Japanese, Persian or other cultures, like you just said, those all count as “humans”, but in the case of the Nordic culture, it gets to have its own race, map and lore.

But I will give it to you that you do make a good point about the Roman theme having its own race as well, the Charr, although the Charr are less obvious (they don’t seem to have Roman names like the Imperials in TES have).

You seem to be blinded by the obvious references in the Norn. There are far more than just Nordic elements in the Norn. I lost a previous post so rather than do it at length, I’ll summarise some of the cultures that are referenced by the Norn.

- Icelandic/Viking: I specified Icelandic as the other 4 nordic nations actually do not use the -dottir or -sson endings for surnames. The concept of the moot is an obvious reference to the long halls that were a centre of the archetypal Viking village.

- Inuit: I say this because of the focus on being proficient hunters particularly in the icy wastes of the north pole. The Norn don’t focus on being a warrior as much as they do about being a hunter. Being good in a fight is not as being able to bring home a meal. This is obvious from all the hearts and events that require hunting or gathering throughout the Shiverpeaks.

- Maori/Pacific Islander: The body and facial tattoo is a strong reference to the warrior cultures of New Zealand and the Pacific Islands like Tonga, Fiji, Vanuatu, etc. The facial tattoo represents the story of a Maori’s life, which is also strongly referenced by the Norn’s need to make a living legend of their lives.

- Native American Indians: Obvious reference based on the Norn’s guidance through their spirit animals.

Asian like humans, and African like humans have their own lands as well, they are just not in this game at this time. They did have them in Guild Wars 1 though.

Hello there, I’m an asura elementalist. The game tells me that I’m superior to both you and the norns, because I am a genius! So who are you to tell me that those cavemen are better than me, just because they’re big and strong?

Now talking about size, in the lore you would see that multiple giant races fell. Once Jotun and the Giants were the ones driving the progress, however when the gods turned their favour away from them and instead granted magic to humans, both of their societies fell back to the stone age.

I think you have too much time and you sound like a american history production about Holocaust. Overhyped and skipping most of facts.

Are Asuras Masons because they have bunch of triangles?

Are WvW Trebuchets a glorification of biological weapon, because they use cows that cause poison? Are they linked to Charrs, who are also somehow based on Mongols, who used biological weapon (corpses) for the first documented time in 1241 during the siege of Legnica?

Conspiracy, racism everywhere, I tell you.

I need to find my tinfoil hat before I can fully participate here. >goes to look for it<

…this is pretty dumb. Like, I’ve seen smarter subjects discussed in World of Warcraft barrens chat.

Anet has maybe been bought by this guy :

Oh Eric. Eric, Eric, Erc.

Since the discussion in this thread has derailed and is no longer constructive this thread is now closed.