Guild Wars 2

ANet is of the opinion that it was necessary to add another tier to the rarity list. I supposed after Ascended we may have Double Ascended or maybe Super Exotic 3. Maybe some screaming and hair growth in between.

If GW2 had only a single rarity (well, no rarity – just ‘normal’), do you think it would impact the game at all? If, instead of having multiple rarities that no one uses, and instead of Exotic or Ascended or Ultra Super Surpassment Armor XTreme being the thing that takes a while to get, it was instead just level 80 armor, and most people had level 78 or level 79 armor, how do you think this would impact the game, if at all?

What if level 80 armor was easy to get (or was even mandatory for you to equip before the final story mission), but looked terrible, and the more expensive armors just looked a lot better? I’m sure the “Progressives” (it’s so wonderful the game has its own political terms now, isn’t it?) are of the opinion that these things are necessary to keep them invested. But what do you think?

Is it possible for games to maintain a sense of personal progress without tying that progress to an investment in gear numbers? Is true horizontal progression possible? Many GW1 players will reflect back to the first game. And certainly, that game never had any stat increases at all. The level cap never even went up. And somehow it lasted for years and, more importantly, financed the game you are playing today, due to its success. But were titles added in later campaigns just another form of vertical progression? What about gathering skills, elite or otherwise? Isn’t that the same thing? If not, why isn’t it the same thing? Try to explain why that form of vertical progression (if it is) is okay, when gear progression isn’t?

I have my own opinions but I’d like to see people actually have a real discussion about game design rather than just telling each other that they’re stupid and need to go back to WoW/GW1. This means more than a couple of sentences or a couple seconds of thought would be nice. I imagine many, not having any experience with this sort of thing, won’t be able to formulate their opinions, and may even believe something incorrectly based on their true motivations, so hopefully you may even be able to shed light on why things work as they do, for those who just want to play the game.

Why do we have blue, green, yellow, orange levels of gear for the same level? We already have 5 tiers of power at 80.

Plague.5329:

Is it possible for games to maintain a sense of personal progress without tying that progress to an investment in gear numbers?

I feel truly sorry for anyone who honestly answers “no” to this question.

Plague.5329:

Is it possible for games to maintain a sense of personal progress without tying that progress to an investment in gear numbers?

Creativity and innovation say “yes.”

Can a forum mod move this thread to the Ascended Gear thread with 8000 post(aka trash bag)? No offense to anyone but these type of discussion has been discussed so many times in the past 3 days it’s getting a little unhealthy and stale.

Euthil.5209:

Plague.5329:

Is it possible for games to maintain a sense of personal progress without tying that progress to an investment in gear numbers?

Creativity and innovation say “yes.”

No, accountants and execs who look at the numbers in the MMO market currently say “yes”. Because WoW is huge, and the entire market is catering to a single design decision — tiered gear progression.

There’s plenty of other ways to go about it. In fact there’s nothing that says a different type of game can’t be bigger than WoW. Fact is, nobody’s even tried. GW2 was trying — and IMO they were succeeding — but they’re waving the flag of surrender.

Long and short of it? No, there’s other ways of doing it, but no, we’ll never see them. Game industry is ridiculously risk-averse at the moment — RIDICULOUSLY risk-averse, that’s why some certain companies are only producing sequels to existing franchises right now — and the MMO market is even more risk-averse (my completely uneducated guess is because it’s a riskier investment, it’s a larger thing to make and maintain and the accountants and execs get their fingers into things tighter and force “safe” decisions more frequently which is code for “copy this other game that did well”).

So sir, while your answer wins on snark points, it loses on reality points — there hasn’t been any serious challenge to the gear-treadmill paradigm since… GW1. And this. But they gave up. So no, friend, innovation doesn’t say “yes” — no MMO since WoW has really been very creative or innovative, merely emulative.

Makes me a saaaaad panda

warmonkey.8013:

Euthil.5209:

Plague.5329:

Is it possible for games to maintain a sense of personal progress without tying that progress to an investment in gear numbers?

Creativity and innovation say “yes.”

No, accountants and execs who look at the numbers in the MMO market currently say “yes”. Because WoW is huge, and the entire market is catering to a single design decision — tiered gear progression.

There’s plenty of other ways to go about it. In fact there’s nothing that says a different type of game can’t be bigger than WoW. Fact is, nobody’s even tried. GW2 was trying — and IMO they were succeeding — but they’re waving the flag of surrender.

Long and short of it? No, there’s other ways of doing it, but no, we’ll never see them. Game industry is ridiculously risk-averse at the moment — RIDICULOUSLY risk-averse, that’s why some certain companies are only producing sequels to existing franchises right now — and the MMO market is even more risk-averse (my completely uneducated guess is because it’s a riskier investment, it’s a larger thing to make and maintain and the accountants and execs get their fingers into things tighter and force “safe” decisions more frequently which is code for “copy this other game that did well”).

So sir, while your answer wins on snark points, it loses on reality points — there hasn’t been any serious challenge to the gear-treadmill paradigm since… GW1. And this. But they gave up. So no, friend, innovation doesn’t say “yes” — no MMO since WoW has really been very creative or innovative, merely emulative.

Makes me a saaaaad panda

No need to be sad, it happens in real life too – in work in school and in relationships XD

The problem (and reason for) gear tiers is that it introduces more of the same, but with higher numbers. It’s not actually new content – just more. The issue is that this causes lesser armors (that before were perfectly acceptable) to become lackluster and often irrelevant. I hate that – the developer’s own efforts replace and neglect their previous creations.

It’s like erasing a drawing and redoing it rather than creating one big picture with lots of little sketches that make a whole. Again, it’s not new content, just more of the same with higher numbers. Take the Rare tier for example. If Exotics didn’t exist, then Rare would be perfectly acceptable and considered the norm. However, only because Exotic tier does exist, not one person would realistically plan to use Rare armor for the long haul. But they both come at level 80. This makes Rare armor (and tiers under it) pointless. They’re only there so that something else will be made better by comparison.

I think the OP had it right by saying that there really shouldn’t be different tiers of armor at the same level – just level 70 armor, 75, 76, 80, etc.

I suppose this is mindless rambling that won’t change anything, but sometimes it just helps talk to it out I guess. We’re stuck with gear tiers and they are introducing more; we will just have to sit back and see where they take us.

warmonkey.8013:

Euthil.5209:

Plague.5329:

Is it possible for games to maintain a sense of personal progress without tying that progress to an investment in gear numbers?

Creativity and innovation say “yes.”

No, accountants and execs who look at the numbers in the MMO market currently say “yes”. Because WoW is huge, and the entire market is catering to a single design decision — tiered gear progression.

There’s plenty of other ways to go about it. In fact there’s nothing that says a different type of game can’t be bigger than WoW. Fact is, nobody’s even tried. GW2 was trying — and IMO they were succeeding — but they’re waving the flag of surrender.

Long and short of it? No, there’s other ways of doing it, but no, we’ll never see them. Game industry is ridiculously risk-averse at the moment — RIDICULOUSLY risk-averse, that’s why some certain companies are only producing sequels to existing franchises right now — and the MMO market is even more risk-averse (my completely uneducated guess is because it’s a riskier investment, it’s a larger thing to make and maintain and the accountants and execs get their fingers into things tighter and force “safe” decisions more frequently which is code for “copy this other game that did well”).

So sir, while your answer wins on snark points, it loses on reality points — there hasn’t been any serious challenge to the gear-treadmill paradigm since… GW1. And this. But they gave up. So no, friend, innovation doesn’t say “yes” — no MMO since WoW has really been very creative or innovative, merely emulative.

Makes me a saaaaad panda

I don’t see how that contradicts what I said. Your argument, if I understand correctly, is that there is a way around this issue, but it’s currently not feasible for financial reasons. Yet, you forgot something, which is that there’s no telling what will happen in the future. And thus my point still stands: it is possible through creativity and innovation. Just because nobody has the balls to find the solution right now doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

I still can’t believe they gave up on their vision so soon. Is 2 months really long enough to see if it would work? I didn’t think ANet was so squeamish considering how innovative they’ve been so far. I thought I saw passion for making a new type of mmo when I watched the mmo-manifesto video but I guess those devs are just good at acting.

warmonkey.8013:

Euthil.5209:

Plague.5329:

Is it possible for games to maintain a sense of personal progress without tying that progress to an investment in gear numbers?

Creativity and innovation say “yes.”

No, accountants and execs who look at the numbers in the MMO market currently say “yes”. Because WoW is huge, and the entire market is catering to a single design decision — tiered gear progression.

There’s plenty of other ways to go about it. In fact there’s nothing that says a different type of game can’t be bigger than WoW. Fact is, nobody’s even tried. GW2 was trying — and IMO they were succeeding — but they’re waving the flag of surrender.

Long and short of it? No, there’s other ways of doing it, but no, we’ll never see them. Game industry is ridiculously risk-averse at the moment — RIDICULOUSLY risk-averse, that’s why some certain companies are only producing sequels to existing franchises right now — and the MMO market is even more risk-averse (my completely uneducated guess is because it’s a riskier investment, it’s a larger thing to make and maintain and the accountants and execs get their fingers into things tighter and force “safe” decisions more frequently which is code for “copy this other game that did well”).

So sir, while your answer wins on snark points, it loses on reality points — there hasn’t been any serious challenge to the gear-treadmill paradigm since… GW1. And this. But they gave up. So no, friend, innovation doesn’t say “yes” — no MMO since WoW has really been very creative or innovative, merely emulative.

Makes me a saaaaad panda

Obviously you never played anything before EQ or WOW. Back in the days before EQ and its clone WOW back even before UO you didn’t rely on items per say you relied on scrolls and potions that granted you a temporary spell or a piece of armor or sword that maybe and 2 or 3 uses but alas turn based MUD’S a wonderful part of online role-playing lore has been lost to you youngster.

Asglarek.8976:

warmonkey.8013:

Euthil.5209:

Plague.5329:

Is it possible for games to maintain a sense of personal progress without tying that progress to an investment in gear numbers?

Creativity and innovation say “yes.”

No, accountants and execs who look at the numbers in the MMO market currently say “yes”. Because WoW is huge, and the entire market is catering to a single design decision — tiered gear progression.

There’s plenty of other ways to go about it. In fact there’s nothing that says a different type of game can’t be bigger than WoW. Fact is, nobody’s even tried. GW2 was trying — and IMO they were succeeding — but they’re waving the flag of surrender.

Long and short of it? No, there’s other ways of doing it, but no, we’ll never see them. Game industry is ridiculously risk-averse at the moment — RIDICULOUSLY risk-averse, that’s why some certain companies are only producing sequels to existing franchises right now — and the MMO market is even more risk-averse (my completely uneducated guess is because it’s a riskier investment, it’s a larger thing to make and maintain and the accountants and execs get their fingers into things tighter and force “safe” decisions more frequently which is code for “copy this other game that did well”).

So sir, while your answer wins on snark points, it loses on reality points — there hasn’t been any serious challenge to the gear-treadmill paradigm since… GW1. And this. But they gave up. So no, friend, innovation doesn’t say “yes” — no MMO since WoW has really been very creative or innovative, merely emulative.

Makes me a saaaaad panda

Obviously you never played anything before EQ or WOW. Back in the days before EQ and its clone WOW back even before UO you didn’t rely on items per say you relied on scrolls and potions that granted you a temporary spell or a piece of armor or sword that maybe and 2 or 3 uses but alas turn based MUD’S a wonderful part of online role-playing lore has been lost to you youngster.

LOTRD? I played turned-base stuff on BBSes, yes. I played text-based RPGs as well, MUDs, MUSHes (they didn’t even have stats or anything, hell one of Mythic’s old games, dgate, i played a ton.

.. created a thief the day i discovered i could outrun anyone because I type like a madman, had memorized the in-game world, and happened to be closer to the server than anyone else.. simply by queuing up where i wanted to run.. i’d always get there faster. but then, that was back in the days when you could actually reasonably roleplay in those things, nothing against anyone who still does that but I vastly preferred a game world with just a few hundred people — that way, I could know people, they could know me, and at worst we’d know the same people. you could build a reputation, and learn others, and it was rad