Guild Wars 2

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

they did not sacrifice any manifesto, credibility, and the only experience sacrificed was with the wvw ranks not being rolled back, but then everyone starts off the same so everyone is encouraged to do lots of wvw to attempt to get their wvw rank up, so it attracts more to wvw, so it is ok that they did that. sacrificing manifesto, and sacrificing credibility, is an OPINION, and ALWAYS will be, it will NEVER be a FACT. get over it clay, its your opinion and we all know yourn entitled to it, but you are not entitled to genralize the entire playerbase to fit your every whim. that is a privelage of the devs, and you will never be a dev with your attitude.

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

I’ve seen it and it’s still the same ideological blueprint that seems to govern all changes to the game. While it’s a blueprint, some things have been implemented differently because theory and reality unfortunately don’t always align.

However, getting max stats is still relatively easy, and the game is just as grind free as GW1.

clay.7849:

Wow, guesses and conjecture, but no real proof.

I would be willing to bet much less than 2 million people still play GW2.

Interesting, he faults you for conjecture in an attempt invalidate your argument and then engages in pure conjecture himself in the very next sentence. It is pretty hard to converse intelligently with some who uses that logic. Anyways….

To answer the OP, we can’t really know how much money GW2 is making for NCsoft, or the exact number of players, but we can look at the earnings report and extrapolate. In brief, GW2 is a significant source of revenue for the company, so in the light, it has been a success and is ‘doing well’.

@Vayne

1. I don’t think a B2P model has anything to do with the success of the game. When I use the term success, I think longevity is a good indicator of success for an MMO. B2P may have some interesting reasons why a player doesn’t have to give up the game in it’s entirety, but it also doesn’t have anything to do with the game getting boring and not worth coming back to. I would reject the idea that a B2P game makes up for the lack of underlying causes as to why a game would die. Just like, a game isn’t going to die just because it is has subscription model.

2. I think it is naive to think that GW2 isn’t competing with WoW. If not, who are they competing with? Just like everyone keeps reminding me, this game is a MMORPG. I think WoW, as an MMORPG, would be competing for the same people, namely MMORPG players. I don’t think there are millions of people outside that market where making another MMORPG would target them sufficiently, regardless of the perceived casual to hardcore level. My thought would be that, if you want to target an audience that is different from MMORPGs, then you would need to make something that is sufficiently different from MMORPGs. GW1 was much more different than GW2 in that regard. GW2 is much more like WoW than GW1 is. In fact, as an MMO, GW2 is very much like WoW. Yes, they are huge differences, but as an MMO, they really fall in to the same themepark MMO identity. Yes, it may be newer and flashier, but underneath all that, the mechanics are the same.

3. Here is my definition of failed: not reaching the lofty sales goals that everyone keeps saying AAA MMO’s aspire to. You seem to think that games with a modest population aren’t dead. True, they may not be. But, the game certainly failed. The whole idea that you need to make a AAA MMO to make a lot of money just doesn’t seem to work. It did with one game: WoW – which was in the right place at the right time. It was a niche game that took off. If GW2 doesn’t surpass the same kinds of sales figures as GW1, then it hasn’t done what everyone said it was set out to do. They could have had healthy growth from GW1 to GW2 if the games were more alike than different just marketing to their previous customers.

As someone who is in the marketing field, I think it is historically accurate to say that 1) marketing to a niche has a higher ROI than marketing to the general public and 2) successful ideas many times rise from niche to mass market.

4. You suppose that PvE players in GW1 generally like GW2. I don’t know that is true or not, but I do know many PvE players that don’t like GW2. Why?

Combat is a big part of it. You can talk about auto-attack and follow and all that stuff that GW2 does do better. But, what you don’t seem to see is that the combat in GW1 was much more interesting. It was more dynamic, required actual teamwork and has strategy. Yes, by the end, many people relied on posted builds and heroes, but generally speaking, I would put GW1’s glory days as pre-Nightfall. That was when cooperation was at an all time high and the combat was amazing. GW2 took a huge step back in many people’s opinions in that regard. The difference in combat between easy to difficult in GW2 is really just more HP’s and more damage output and more zerg. There is nothing as fun about taking down a boss that takes 5 minutes of doing the same thing over and over when in GW1 you had to use actual strategy and tactics to defeat some bosses.

5. Yes, I think GW2’s timing for release was perfect. From little competition to right before Xmas. If, however, they fail to reach the kind of lofty sales numbers that everyone says is the reason they made GW2 an MMO and unlike GW1, then it was all for naught.

6. Some people do really like the game. A lot of people don’t. A lot of people like the game enough or see enough potential to keep hanging on. With each relatively poor update, more people will eventually fade away. This game has amazing potential. But, it isn’t even close to being realized. Personally, I think ANet, as an extension of NCSoft, will continue to milk their customers for money the easiest way possible rather than continue to try to make a great game.

I seriously hope I am wrong. I would like to find a game that I can play for a while. Sadly, I find myself spending more time in GW1 than in GW2 and I haven’t played that game in years. But, even with all of its “oldness” it is still a way better game, IMO.

GW2 is a game that has great potential, but right now, isn’t all that great. At least not for me and may others.

marnick.4305:

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

I’ve seen it and it’s still the same ideological blueprint that seems to govern all changes to the game. While it’s a blueprint, some things have been implemented differently because theory and reality unfortunately don’t always align.

However, getting max stats is still relatively easy, and the game is just as grind free as GW1.

My biggest problem with the manifesto is that they said that people who loved GW1 will love GW2. Sure, there are some, but as the games are really night and day different, it left a lot of people out to dry.

Namely, PvP players.

My Dead Characters.9517:

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

they did not sacrifice any manifesto, credibility, and the only experience sacrificed was with the wvw ranks not being rolled back, but then everyone starts off the same so everyone is encouraged to do lots of wvw to attempt to get their wvw rank up, so it attracts more to wvw, so it is ok that they did that. sacrificing manifesto, and sacrificing credibility, is an OPINION, and ALWAYS will be, it will NEVER be a FACT. get over it clay, its your opinion and we all know yourn entitled to it, but you are not entitled to genralize the entire playerbase to fit your every whim. that is a privelage of the devs, and you will never be a dev with your attitude.

So when they said that what you love about GW1 will be in GW2, we would assume that they also meant the quite active PvP population in GW1 as well, right?

Shame they didn’t follow up on that promise…

That is a fact.

Stop getting so mad that people have a different opinions than you. I’m not mad that people have different opinions than me. I just think it is funny that I clearly state that all of my opinions are opinions, and people tell me that I’m wrong and that their opinions are facts.

I realize I might be full of kitten. Everyone else needs to realize that they could be full of kitten too instead of taking criticism of a game personally.

Vayne.8563:

This is for all the people who claim the game is dying.

Star Wars The Old Republic ended up laying off a significant portion of their staff six months or so after launch. TSW ended up laying off a third of their staff, due to disappointing sales.

Anet, on the other hand, is hiring. Here’s the link to their website, which I got by following the shifting news on top of the main Guild Wars 2 page.

http://www.arena.net/

If Guild Wars 2 is doing so badly and the game is dying, why is Anet hiring?

As much as I think SWTOR is awful for many different reasons…. to say any game is doing poorly because of layoffs is nothing more than pure heresay.

For starters any new MMO will have a large development team leading upto and for a wiles after launch … mainly on contract and once that contract is due then those people are either moved onto other things or become surplus to requirements.. the game needs internally change after launch and many positions are simply surplus to requirements.. nothing new in that and if you actually looked at the Bioware/EA job sites you will see that actually at almost the same time there were a whole host of new positions being recruited. Sure SWTOR has had issues bedding into an aggressive, overladen industry, the fact its gone F2P might indicate that (but even then that’s not a gimmee either).
Simple fact is you are speculating doom in one hand and speculating success on the other.. using nothing more than your own opinion based on nothing more than news clippings and job adverts… you know nothing of what is happening internally at any of those companies you mention including ANET…. business is a fickle thing and best left to those armed with the facts to control and comment on.. if they feel they need to.

Based on things like XFire and anything like it – yes the game is dying. BUT this game has no subscription fee, so the company was basicaly done with you once u bought the game. Also a certain fairy told me that the population of the servers depends on the amount of characters on a server rather then the actual online ( ofc that is yet to be confirmed).
p.s I just hope the kitten NCsoft doesnt start screwing with the game . Anything they start trying to fix or make ends up getting burried

clay.7849:

My Dead Characters.9517:

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

they did not sacrifice any manifesto, credibility, and the only experience sacrificed was with the wvw ranks not being rolled back, but then everyone starts off the same so everyone is encouraged to do lots of wvw to attempt to get their wvw rank up, so it attracts more to wvw, so it is ok that they did that. sacrificing manifesto, and sacrificing credibility, is an OPINION, and ALWAYS will be, it will NEVER be a FACT. get over it clay, its your opinion and we all know yourn entitled to it, but you are not entitled to genralize the entire playerbase to fit your every whim. that is a privelage of the devs, and you will never be a dev with your attitude.

So when they said that what you love about GW1 will be in GW2, we would assume that they also meant the quite active PvP population in GW1 as well, right?

Shame they didn’t follow up on that promise…

That is a fact.

Stop getting so mad that people have a different opinions than you. I’m not mad that people have different opinions than me. I just think it is funny that I clearly state that all of my opinions are opinions, and people tell me that I’m wrong and that their opinions are facts.

I realize I might be full of kitten. Everyone else needs to realize that they could be full of kitten too instead of taking criticism of a game personally.

know what i find funny here? the fact that i said nothing about getting mad at your for having a different opinion, nor did i imply it. i simply stated that the reason people are getting a litttle frustrated with you is that you keep making HUGE generalizations. i honestly dont want to get into this for real as far as is this a successful game or not, its successful to me because i like it and that is all i care about. i was just trying to explain to you that most of these comments that were directed toward you are because you generalize your opinions over the entire playerbase, when the entire playerbase’s opinions do not match yours for every player.

My Dead Characters.9517:

clay.7849:

My Dead Characters.9517:

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

they did not sacrifice any manifesto, credibility, and the only experience sacrificed was with the wvw ranks not being rolled back, but then everyone starts off the same so everyone is encouraged to do lots of wvw to attempt to get their wvw rank up, so it attracts more to wvw, so it is ok that they did that. sacrificing manifesto, and sacrificing credibility, is an OPINION, and ALWAYS will be, it will NEVER be a FACT. get over it clay, its your opinion and we all know yourn entitled to it, but you are not entitled to genralize the entire playerbase to fit your every whim. that is a privelage of the devs, and you will never be a dev with your attitude.

So when they said that what you love about GW1 will be in GW2, we would assume that they also meant the quite active PvP population in GW1 as well, right?

Shame they didn’t follow up on that promise…

That is a fact.

Stop getting so mad that people have a different opinions than you. I’m not mad that people have different opinions than me. I just think it is funny that I clearly state that all of my opinions are opinions, and people tell me that I’m wrong and that their opinions are facts.

I realize I might be full of kitten. Everyone else needs to realize that they could be full of kitten too instead of taking criticism of a game personally.

know what i find funny here? the fact that i said nothing about getting mad at your for having a different opinion, nor did i imply it. i simply stated that the reason people are getting a litttle frustrated with you is that you keep making HUGE generalizations. i honestly dont want to get into this for real as far as is this a successful game or not, its successful to me because i like it and that is all i care about. i was just trying to explain to you that most of these comments that were directed toward you are because you generalize your opinions over the entire playerbase, when the entire playerbase’s opinions do not match yours for every player.

Show me where I generalized the entire playerbase please?

clay.7849:

Show me where I generalized the entire playerbase please?

Still arguing with the world? Just re-read most of your posts for the answer.

Do you have another doomsday theory for us today? Predictions on the next expansions timing and sales outlook perhaps?

clay.7849:

marnick.4305:

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

I’ve seen it and it’s still the same ideological blueprint that seems to govern all changes to the game. While it’s a blueprint, some things have been implemented differently because theory and reality unfortunately don’t always align.

However, getting max stats is still relatively easy, and the game is just as grind free as GW1.

My biggest problem with the manifesto is that they said that people who loved GW1 will love GW2. Sure, there are some, but as the games are really night and day different, it left a lot of people out to dry.

Namely, PvP players.

I loved GW1, was pretty much a pvx player for 7 years and indeed, I feel for the PvP players who were left in the cold. I really hope they can make a full turn here, but designing a good pvp game is incredibly difficult. The combat basis exists but there’s so much lacking currently. I would focus on:

- ToPK-style tournament
- Removal of capture points as a winning mechanic. Deadmatch, priest Annihilation, King of the hill are far more interesting and engaging.
- Adding at least 20 utility, 5 healing skills and 5 elite skills per profession

I think those three would be a good start.

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

Show me where I generalized the entire playerbase please?

Still arguing with the world? Just re-read most of your posts for the answer.

Do you have another doomsday theory for us today? Predictions on the next expansions timing and sales outlook perhaps?

Man, I really get you upset don’t I?

marnick.4305:

clay.7849:

marnick.4305:

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

I’ve seen it and it’s still the same ideological blueprint that seems to govern all changes to the game. While it’s a blueprint, some things have been implemented differently because theory and reality unfortunately don’t always align.

However, getting max stats is still relatively easy, and the game is just as grind free as GW1.

My biggest problem with the manifesto is that they said that people who loved GW1 will love GW2. Sure, there are some, but as the games are really night and day different, it left a lot of people out to dry.

Namely, PvP players.

I loved GW1, was pretty much a pvx player for 7 years and indeed, I feel for the PvP players who were left in the cold. I really hope they can make a full turn here, but designing a good pvp game is incredibly difficult. The combat basis exists but there’s so much lacking currently. I would focus on:

- ToPK-style tournament
- Removal of capture points as a winning mechanic. Deadmatch, priest Annihilation, King of the hill are far more interesting and engaging.
- Adding at least 20 utility, 5 healing skills and 5 elite skills per profession

I think those three would be a good start.

I would be happy with GvG to start with again…

clay.7849:

marnick.4305:

clay.7849:

marnick.4305:

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

I’ve seen it and it’s still the same ideological blueprint that seems to govern all changes to the game. While it’s a blueprint, some things have been implemented differently because theory and reality unfortunately don’t always align.

However, getting max stats is still relatively easy, and the game is just as grind free as GW1.

My biggest problem with the manifesto is that they said that people who loved GW1 will love GW2. Sure, there are some, but as the games are really night and day different, it left a lot of people out to dry.

Namely, PvP players.

I loved GW1, was pretty much a pvx player for 7 years and indeed, I feel for the PvP players who were left in the cold. I really hope they can make a full turn here, but designing a good pvp game is incredibly difficult. The combat basis exists but there’s so much lacking currently. I would focus on:

- ToPK-style tournament
- Removal of capture points as a winning mechanic. Deadmatch, priest Annihilation, King of the hill are far more interesting and engaging.
- Adding at least 20 utility, 5 healing skills and 5 elite skills per profession

I think those three would be a good start.

I would be happy with GvG to start with again…

One of the biggest problems with GW1 pvp was fractured playerbase. As such I’d make GvG a subset of ToPK. Same maps, same mechanics, just with guilds instead of teams/solo.

Rash.6514:

Whoa, a whole family playing the same MMO, did I get it right? Cool.

LOL…I think that happens more than you think. We’ve done it for years. My ex-husband and I use to share an internet connection and had a second one for the boys. We all played COH and wow together. I play a lot of the same games my oldest son has played. Both boys are grown now and still play together on FPS. I been in my guild for a few years and through a few games together too. We have/had quite a few people playing in the same family. As more house holds all have their own pc, you will find more of this.

marnick.4305:

clay.7849:

marnick.4305:

clay.7849:

marnick.4305:

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

I’ve seen it and it’s still the same ideological blueprint that seems to govern all changes to the game. While it’s a blueprint, some things have been implemented differently because theory and reality unfortunately don’t always align.

However, getting max stats is still relatively easy, and the game is just as grind free as GW1.

My biggest problem with the manifesto is that they said that people who loved GW1 will love GW2. Sure, there are some, but as the games are really night and day different, it left a lot of people out to dry.

Namely, PvP players.

I loved GW1, was pretty much a pvx player for 7 years and indeed, I feel for the PvP players who were left in the cold. I really hope they can make a full turn here, but designing a good pvp game is incredibly difficult. The combat basis exists but there’s so much lacking currently. I would focus on:

- ToPK-style tournament
- Removal of capture points as a winning mechanic. Deadmatch, priest Annihilation, King of the hill are far more interesting and engaging.
- Adding at least 20 utility, 5 healing skills and 5 elite skills per profession

I think those three would be a good start.

I would be happy with GvG to start with again…

One of the biggest problems with GW1 pvp was fractured playerbase. As such I’d make GvG a subset of ToPK. Same maps, same mechanics, just with guilds instead of teams/solo.

Sounds good to me!

clay.7849:

Man, I really get you upset don’t I?

Nah, your posts amuse me. Reminds me of my old high school days where kids would talk about all sorts of things they never understood and pretended they knew everything. You really remind me of my nephew.

So, predictions on expansion? If you’re going to go on a tirade meithers well go all the way and add predictions on failure time (you did that, xmas 2013) and expansions.

NeverSmileWF.1684:

Based on things like XFire and anything like it – yes the game is dying.

I suppose you believe all MMOs are dying, then, considering GW2 is the second most active MMO according to Xfire. Following The Razing, GW2 saw a 9% spike in week over week activity, and it’s safe to assume the activation of the Super Adventure Box was/is an even bigger draw.

Source: http://nosygamer.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-digital-dozen-2-april-2013.html

[EDIT]

I somehow missed this.

clay.7849:

? It’s funny how the majority of people on a forum about a game don’t represent the majority. That is so logical.

Your condescension here is unwarranted, because it’s absolutely true that forum goers are rarely representative of the majority of players. They’re an absolutely tiny percentage of the player base, and not only that, they’re also a self-selecting group: they tend to be invested, passionate, opinionated, loud, and unusually negative. There tends to be this echo chamber effect where simplistic, angry narratives dominate over nuanced, sympathetic ones.

That strikes me as something that should be obvious, and very easily observable across different forums, comment sections, and so on. But if you’d like verification, here’s a relevant study and a very well written blog post by someone who would know:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19821-flaming-drives-online-social-networkkittenml
http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/

Remember, the only person you’re speaking for is yourself. When you start pretending you’re speaking for the majority, it becomes incredibly difficult to take you seriously. That’s especially true in the context of forum discussions, where all too often it’s the shrillest taking up the mantle of “spokesperson for the majority.” Hopefully you aren’t doing that.

Hawkian.6580:

And by the way, it’s not a binary state. It’s a continuum.

I’m a semi-casual semi-hardcore gamer.

This is known as a “core” or mainstream gamer.

Nerokis.8405:

NeverSmileWF.1684:

Based on things like XFire and anything like it – yes the game is dying.

I suppose you believe all MMOs are dying, then, considering GW2 is the second most active MMO according to Xfire. Following The Razing, GW2 saw a 9% spike in week over week activity, and it’s safe to assume the activation of the Super Adventure Box was/is an even bigger draw.

Source: http://nosygamer.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-digital-dozen-2-april-2013.html

[EDIT]

I somehow missed this.

clay.7849:

? It’s funny how the majority of people on a forum about a game don’t represent the majority. That is so logical.

Your condescension here is unwarranted, because it’s absolutely true that forum goers are rarely representative of the majority of players. They’re an absolutely tiny percentage of the player base, and not only that, they’re also a self-selecting group: they tend to be invested, passionate, opinionated, loud, and unusually negative. There tends to be this echo chamber effect where simplistic, angry narratives dominate over nuanced, sympathetic ones.

That strikes me as something that should be obvious, and very easily observable across different forums, comment sections, and so on. But if you’d like verification, here’s a relevant study and a very well written blog post by someone who would know:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19821-flaming-drives-online-social-networkkittenml
http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/

Remember, the only person you’re speaking for is yourself. When you start pretending you’re speaking for the majority, it becomes incredibly difficult to take you seriously. That’s especially true in the context of forum discussions, where all too often it’s the shrillest taking up the mantle of “spokesperson for the majority.” Hopefully you aren’t doing that.

Well, I know that I’m not speaking for the majority, but I also know I am speaking for more than myself.

I mean, I can easily say that the majority of the GW1 competitive PvP scene has basically forsaken GW2.

Also, no offense, but you may be right that forums are not a good “random sample” of the game, but I don’t see any statistics to back that up from the links you posted. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the first link doesn’t really address the issue of WHO is interacting in a forum. Rather, it seems to come up with generalizations about HOW people interact in a forum.

I don’t necessarily think that forums are a perfect random sample of a game, but I have yet to see any concrete evidence showing it one way or the other. Instead, I am saying that the forums ARE a sample of the gaming population, and as such, we can at least get some information from them. I think most sane people would agree that there is at least something to be gained from reading the forums with a grain of salt.

What I was trying to say to Xia, who likes to make attacks personal, and thus gets the same thing in return, is that we can see that there are very opinionated perceptions about how this game should go.

We can see and understand that there are two very divided populations of people that either like a gear treadmill or don’t like a gear treadmill. Regardless of whether a person actually knows what the term is, they understand what is happening in a game when it is introduced. So, I think it is perfectly appropriate to use the forums as one example of showing that those two populations exist, and that it would be nearly impossible to make those two populations happy under one title’s “roof”.

The only other argument I had which involves the forums, is similar to the one above: the lack of any real stance by ANet to make a game that favors one type of player over another leads to arguments about the game within the community. Basically, you can’t please all the people all the time, and in trying to do so, you run the risk of alienating everyone by not making a game that is really for anyone. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule.

Last, I think that the GW2 forums are different than other forum negativity in that while there is general negativity about the game that we can all expect, there is way more arguing over what road this game needs to head down. That is because this game hasn’t decided to take a path that leads to one niche or another. Therefore, very few people feel the game is going down the path that best fits them.

I hope I said that so that I clearly get my thoughts across.

These are just observations. I don’t think they are laws or rules, but I do think there is some truth behind them, whether they turn out to be right or wrong.

Geotherma.2395:

clay.7849:

So, the level of complexity between Wii bowling and GW2 is the same? kitten, get me a 50 year old that has never played the game before and have them make an omnomberry bar. That should keep them busy for a few hours. You can’t honestly think that MMO’s are as easy to play as Wii bowling.

29% of people 50 years and older play video games. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game)

Less than 5% of people playing MMO’s in this study were over 50 years old. (http://petsymposium.org/2011/papers/hotpets11-final7Likarish.pdf)

Yea, so, there aren’t a lot of 50 year olds playing MMO’s. It may increase, but I doubt it will increase much to make much of a difference.

You seem to dislike the idea of demographics at all – which is pretty much defining what kind of people like stuff. In this case, MMORPG style video games.

I know a 57 year old Master Sargent who lead convoys and raids using land nav technology and GPS to find targets to destroy and kill in the middle of Baghdad. To say someone can’t do something because of age is appalling to me. You clearly have no idea what people are capable of. At any age.

And the fact you believe everything you see on Wikipedia… really shows a lot about your mentality.

I didn’t say they can’t do it. I said it is more complex. MMO games are more complex than Wii bowling. Fact. You can’t dispute this even a little bit. It is the same as saying gravity exists.

Also, I’m not sure if you know this, but Wikipedia has this little thing called “references” that “reference” where the information came from. Amazing how that works. Shows a lot about your mentality too…

By the way, here is the study that shows only 29% of people 50 years and older play video games. This way you can’t say we shouldn’t believe everything we read on Wiki:

http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2012.pdf

It was a study that was done by the Entertainment Software Association and was used in the Wiki article. But, thanks for playing !

Surprisingly enough, I was able to find it using the references in the wiki article that I’m not supposed to trust or believe.

Well GW2 at least doing well enofe for ppl to have an endless argument about if GW2 is doing well or not. Much like the “is GW2 dieing” threads always has new ppl willing to chat it up about nothing they can know and have no contort over.

Calae.1738:

Mature content = blood, nudity, terror, coarse language, violence, politics, economics, moral controversy and scientific material.

(edit: added bold)

Bold part sounds much more like teenage – (very) young adult dream movie/show/game …

One by one:

• blood: yeah, right — people really want to look at “real” blood and gore (trust me, it’s not even remotely fun seeing it IRL)
• nudity: (“Internet is for pr0n, …”) — nudity just because of sake of nudity is everything else than mature
• terror/violence: playing games should be fun or I missed something — try it IRL and someone will teach you new real meaning of that … fast
• coarse language: kitten, kitten, bulkitten, oh kitten, … my kitten, wow kitten … WOW I’m 100% mature 1337 guy (and I’m the one who can be very explicit when talking)
• politics/economics: oh gawd no, never, ever — we have enough of those “types” IRL to have another batch in game (well in game we maybe can kill get rid of them … hmm that’s not that bad idea)
• moral controversy: ?? (very, very broad), we hate them because they are <insert difference here> or “yeah, I can act as real #$%^@# in game w00t!”
• scientific material: huh? Hard science? You want to travel 12hr to get to next place, be killed in one hit as humans are not that fire-proof, perma death, spend weeks or more to get enough material to make that leet sword, spend tons of time working to get finances in order to buy something … erm … RL (still) have better gfx and all of that in it. (and I’m long time fan of the hard SF)

To be clear, I don’t mind having things from the list in game (except politics #$#%) but it should be in because it’s FUN not just to call it “mature/adult”.

Why anything from above is called “mature” escapes me completely. And I do love dark/no win scenarios, but done right (sadly, very rare), not just created to get that (whatever) title.

BTW can anyone name one title who has above things which is not swarmed with “not very mature people” (deliberately omitted age as that is not real measure for it)?

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

I am actually the marketing director for multiple divisions of a company, so I think I know a little bit about these things…

Sure you are. Sure. lol

From what I read so far, I’m inclined to believe in that … oh … marketingdroid … there, fixed

nekitten234:

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

I am actually the marketing director for multiple divisions of a company, so I think I know a little bit about these things…

Sure you are. Sure. lol

From what I read so far, I’m inclined to believe in that … oh … marketingdroid … there, fixed

Is it more satisfying to bash a person rather than comment on the discussion at hand?

My dad, who is pushing 60, played my NES more than I did, and loves online poker.

GW2 seems to be doing just fine. And it’s certainly not a failed game. Does it have the same population as launch? No. But most games don’t. The population still seems fairly strong though. Anet made a game where people are constantly coming and going. You can take a break and then come back and unlike certain other games you aren’t left playing some horrible game of catch up. You can generally jump right back in.

You have to ignore the doom and gloom folks. If these type of people were correct WoW would have been dead years ago considering the amount of crying and doom saying on those forums.

@Nerokis
http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
Wow, this is an excellent find. It should be stickied and be required reading for all the forum warriors.

Astral Projections.7320:

@Nerokis
http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
Wow, this is an excellent find. It should be stickied and be required reading for all the forum warriors.

LOL. That article is great. And too true. I’ve seen it countless times. If you go by the forums most games would be dead and horrible failures. It simply does not give an accurate picture. I’d say you’d need some sort of in-game survey type thing if you were going for more accuracy given that most players don’t visit forums.

xarallei.4279:

LOL. That article is great. And too true. I’ve seen it countless times. If you go by the forums most games would be dead and horrible failures. It simply does not give an accurate picture. I’d say you’d need some sort of in-game survey type thing if you were going for more accuracy given that most players don’t visit forums.

Or simple metrics like how many unique players participate in activity X per week, or what bosses are killed the most and how quickly, or which chest is looted the most per week. The problem with a survey is that the answers depend on the players mood as he’s answering while the metrics measure his play pattern over a week or longer period.

Concurrent unique players per week is also a useful metric, one arena net mentioned not to long ago.

clay.7849:

nekitten234:

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

I am actually the marketing director for multiple divisions of a company, so I think I know a little bit about these things…

Sure you are. Sure. lol

From what I read so far, I’m inclined to believe in that … oh … marketingdroid … there, fixed

Is it more satisfying to bash a person rather than comment on the discussion at hand?

Personal attack? No.

“marketdroid” is term I’m using for the people which whole posts/talks/whatever are constructed on reiterating and reiterating “one big truth/fact/science about everyone (or at least 4 of the 5 dentists) agrees” without even stopping and listening “other side”. And IMHO posts in this thread fit that description (there is another old-style forum term for that too…)

As no one in this conversation has any real knowledge about “state of the game” we can just guess about it and agree to disagree.

As for the OT, see my previous post.

nekitten234:

clay.7849:

nekitten234:

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

I am actually the marketing director for multiple divisions of a company, so I think I know a little bit about these things…

Sure you are. Sure. lol

From what I read so far, I’m inclined to believe in that … oh … marketingdroid … there, fixed

Is it more satisfying to bash a person rather than comment on the discussion at hand?

Personal attack? No.

“marketdroid” is term I’m using for the people which whole posts/talks/whatever are constructed on reiterating and reiterating “one big truth/fact/science about everyone (or at least 4 of the 5 dentists) agrees” without even stopping and listening “other side”. And IMHO posts in this thread fit that description (there is another old-style forum term for that too…)

As no one in this conversation has any real knowledge about “state of the game” we can just guess about it and agree to disagree.

… and can admit mistake

I mixed you with OT and my reaction was based more on that than solely on your’s posts with which I may disagree but they are not in the same class as OT. Suits me right to not double-check poster name.

NHF

nekitten234:

nekitten234:

clay.7849:

nekitten234:

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

I am actually the marketing director for multiple divisions of a company, so I think I know a little bit about these things…

Sure you are. Sure. lol

From what I read so far, I’m inclined to believe in that … oh … marketingdroid … there, fixed

Is it more satisfying to bash a person rather than comment on the discussion at hand?

Personal attack? No.

“marketdroid” is term I’m using for the people which whole posts/talks/whatever are constructed on reiterating and reiterating “one big truth/fact/science about everyone (or at least 4 of the 5 dentists) agrees” without even stopping and listening “other side”. And IMHO posts in this thread fit that description (there is another old-style forum term for that too…)

As no one in this conversation has any real knowledge about “state of the game” we can just guess about it and agree to disagree.

… and can admit mistake

I mixed you with OT and my reaction was based more on that than solely on your’s posts with which I may disagree but they are not in the same class as OT. Suits me right to not double-check poster name.

NHF

Lol, that’s cool. I just wasn’t sure what marketdroid referred to.

It’s all good.

erm .. under OT i meant Calae (IIRC) … dang stopping … just making things worse

nekitten234:

erm .. under OT i meant Calae (IIRC) … dang stopping … just making things worse

Lol. Well, if you look at my post to him, I think you will see we are on the same side of that argument.

clay.7849:

nekitten234:

erm .. under OT i meant Calae (IIRC) … dang stopping … just making things worse

Lol. Well, if you look at my post to him, I think you will see we are on the same side of that argument.

Long thread, long day …

Back to GW2 those dailies need attention

I would say that before this latest patch they were losing players. However, numbers are back up because of the content release. It’s also a matter of time before WvW starts slowing down again. It would have been really nice if they would have allowed people to purchase Ascended items in WvW even if it costed a fortune. Don’t get me wrong I love guild missions, but if I miss one and I’m in WvW guild I don’t want to be flamed as a carebear because I missed one ankittenrying to get a guild mission together.

marnick.4305:

I’ve seen it and it’s still the same ideological blueprint that seems to govern all changes to the game. While it’s a blueprint, some things have been implemented differently because theory and reality unfortunately don’t always align.

However, getting max stats is still relatively easy, and the game is just as grind free as GW1.

Getting BiS ascended items is not a grind? A lot of players who felt betrayed after the introduction of ascended items were old GW1 players precisely because of the differences from GW1.

Heck even on release, prior to the karma jugs for dailies and monthlies, obtaining BiS exotic items was something of a grind, I ground out karma farming in Orr for 4 weeks to get my first Orr temple set, and getting crafting to max level was just as bad.

morrolan.9608:

marnick.4305:

I’ve seen it and it’s still the same ideological blueprint that seems to govern all changes to the game. While it’s a blueprint, some things have been implemented differently because theory and reality unfortunately don’t always align.

However, getting max stats is still relatively easy, and the game is just as grind free as GW1.

Getting BiS ascended items is not a grind? A lot of players who felt betrayed after the introduction of ascended items were old GW1 players precisely because of the differences from GW1.

Heck even on release, prior to the karma jugs for dailies and monthlies, obtaining BiS exotic items was something of a grind, I ground out karma farming in Orr for 4 weeks to get my first Orr temple set, and getting crafting to max level was just as bad.

Such is the world of gaming though things must changes or you will not get a big pop to play your game. If you call what GW2 has a grind then i think you would call every other game that has ever been put out has some type of grind in it too.

Look at games like WoW ppl LOVE getting new gear it simply works and the small pop of ppl who hate it have no power to deal with what most of the gaming community likes. The major thing GW2 is doing right when adding in new gear is they are making it such a small buff that it truly dose not mater if you have it or not. If you think you need it then its YOU whom is putting the need for the item. Its like dealing with cars you can have the high price car and it will be a bit better but a lower end car works just as well all though it may not be the “best” car on the rode.

Jski.6180:

Such is the world of gaming though things must changes or you will not get a big pop to play your game. If you call what GW2 has a grind then i think you would call every other game that has ever been put out has some type of grind in it too.

There are degrees, I don’t call it a massive grind but it is a grind. And the point is the game was sold to me at least partly on the basis of there being no grind for max stat items.

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

Whether they sacrificed the manifesto or not depends on the person. The topic at hand whether or not they did is the grind. Some people might consider getting exotics itself a grind (and a gear treadmill at that), and from the very start even before ascended the manifesto was broken already.

morrolan.9608:

Jski.6180:

Such is the world of gaming though things must changes or you will not get a big pop to play your game. If you call what GW2 has a grind then i think you would call every other game that has ever been put out has some type of grind in it too.

There are degrees, I don’t call it a massive grind but it is a grind. And the point is the game was sold to me at least partly on the basis of there being no grind for max stat items.

So you want every thing at the start of the game? I mean in effect it sounds like you do not even wanted to exp grind that IS in this game from level 1-80 all be in a super easy one.
I think your putting a very unrealistic point of view in this game and truly all games. I cant even think of a game that has an easier grind to them. As for progression all games have some type of progression there more to games then just simple stat and that GW2 is an active game stat a very pointless.

This is just a truth of gaming most players like progression and games will be made as such your own feeling has nothing to do with the chose that are made and will be made because your simply just one person and over all the group that hates progression is very small and getting smaller every day.

Heijincks.9267:

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

Whether they sacrificed the manifesto or not depends on the person. The topic at hand whether or not they did is the grind. Some people might consider getting exotics itself a grind (and a gear treadmill at that), and from the very start even before ascended the manifesto was broken already.

Well, here is my take on the grind thing. I get that you don’t need anything that is “grind-able” and that it doesn’t gate content – so that’s fine. Although, there is a lot of repetition to get items that is built into the game, which is kind of what a grind is.

Really, I could care less about the grind thing.

My take on the manifesto is that this game is nothing like GW1, and they clearly said if you loved GW1 you would love GW2. I think we can safely assume that when they wrote that they meant it. However, what they ended up with has alienated pretty much every GW1 player I know.

clay.7849:

Heijincks.9267:

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

Whether they sacrificed the manifesto or not depends on the person. The topic at hand whether or not they did is the grind. Some people might consider getting exotics itself a grind (and a gear treadmill at that), and from the very start even before ascended the manifesto was broken already.

Well, here is my take on the grind thing. I get that you don’t need anything that is “grind-able” and that it doesn’t gate content – so that’s fine. Although, there is a lot of repetition to get items that is built into the game, which is kind of what a grind is.

Really, I could care less about the grind thing.

My take on the manifesto is that this game is nothing like GW1, and they clearly said if you loved GW1 you would love GW2. I think we can safely assume that when they wrote that they meant it. However, what they ended up with has alienated pretty much every GW1 player I know.

Yes YOUR take is this but not every one thinks the same way as you do. Most of the players who loved GW1 DO like GW2 but most player of GW1 often would stop playing GW1 for long bits of time waiting for expansion to add in new content so from the very start the GW1 player base was a non consistent group.

NCsoft stock has significantly dropped since the release of GW2, that tells me that something isn’t doing too well.

Fernling.1729:

NCsoft stock has significantly dropped since the release of GW2, that tells me that something isn’t doing too well.

NCSoft isn’t only about GW2. About the time when GW2 was released, City of Heroes was shut down and that had some serious backlash.

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Heijincks.9267:

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

Whether they sacrificed the manifesto or not depends on the person. The topic at hand whether or not they did is the grind. Some people might consider getting exotics itself a grind (and a gear treadmill at that), and from the very start even before ascended the manifesto was broken already.

Well, here is my take on the grind thing. I get that you don’t need anything that is “grind-able” and that it doesn’t gate content – so that’s fine. Although, there is a lot of repetition to get items that is built into the game, which is kind of what a grind is.

Really, I could care less about the grind thing.

My take on the manifesto is that this game is nothing like GW1, and they clearly said if you loved GW1 you would love GW2. I think we can safely assume that when they wrote that they meant it. However, what they ended up with has alienated pretty much every GW1 player I know.

Yes YOUR take is this but not every one thinks the same way as you do. Most of the players who loved GW1 DO like GW2 but most player of GW1 often would stop playing GW1 for long bits of time waiting for expansion to add in new content so from the very start the GW1 player base was a non consistent group.

You may be right for a lot of people, but I can safely say that I am right when it comes to competitive PvP players.

Also, do you really think this game is like GW1 in any way shape or form other than lore?