Guild Wars 2

Hmm I don’t know. For a lot of people how well the game is doing does matter. I’m probably personally not one of them, unless it’s doing so badly that I can’t find a guild or people to play with. That would be pretty annoying.

But when you consider that at this point in it’s growth, the well-selling SWToR was already laying off a decent chunk of staff, it certain gives me reason to believe the game isn’t doing badly.

Vayne.8563:

Bloodstealer.5978:

marnick.4305:

Bloodstealer.5978:

Yes you are using nothing but speculative numbers in your argument.. and what you fail to understand is even if there are a million players left the concurrent numbers of logins based on the 1million is going to be significantly lower… but you and I or anyone know nothing of the games overheads, the breakpoints or there cashflow dynamics… you are simply trying to play the doomsayer and white angel all at the same time.. whilst armed with nothing but baseless facts and sheer guess work.

One thing we do know about overhead and breakpoints is that the whole GW-GW2 server design was about minimal costs and scale ability. As far as server costs go, it is pretty much a one player costs X times amount of online players. This was the core reason why a.net devs quit WoW and started their own thing, because they figured out how to make a free MMO.

Leaves employee costs, which is still low considering a.net is a mid-size firm.

I’m not making their balance, but I’d wager they can be a very healthy company with far less active players than any other MMO on the market. Don’t forget GW1 was thriving as a relatively obscure cult MMO.

I can only agree with this post… though no company large or small, is immune to market forces… but unless the OP has all the actual facts, rhymes and reasons to his/her disposal.. making such threads is really nothing more than heresay… then again every MMO forum has them being reeled out over and over I guess.

That’s my point. I’d have never made this post, if I hadn’t seen two or three posts asking if it’s dying. Well, no one really knows…but we have “some” indication. If it was really dying, you wouldn’t see them hiring. There’s NO percentage in hiring a staff for a dying game. The situations where that would be acceptable are pretty kitten rare, particularly in gaming.

No one knows but conclusions can be drawn from things we do know, and things we see. But I’m kitten tired of people making stuff up. If you’re going to say the game is dying (and plenty of people on these forums have), then at least show some evidence, other than all my friends left the game.

We don’t know everything, but there is at least circumstantial evidence that the game isn’t dying. How well its’ doing, no one can say, but dying?

That’s why I made this post in the first place. As an answer to those people.

Well I am saying neither to be honest Vayne.. simply because I prefer to base where possible off of facts rather than fiction.

Don’t get me wrong I have nothing against your reasons to post, this is a forum, a place to air your views and opinions but in doing so expect counters and disagreements.. which judging from your responses I believe you have no issues with unlike many others who post on these and other forums.

But one thing you might be surprised to find is that actually many companies, especially medium to large ones will actually go out and recruit when things have began to head south in the financials… the investors have likely put a lot into making this game come to fruition and if it had/has/might hit a poor patch so soon after launch ANET, NCSoft and their investors will put effort into turning things around before it spirals out of control.. of course there will be a point of no return but not this soon after launch.. look at SWTOR again.. it was miserable 3 months in and within 12 months its F2P with lots of recruitment over the ensuing months in a bid to turn the game around, appeal to a different demographic and counter some of the market trends… they could of said “oh well we made a shed load on the record box sales.. close the servers and move on”

Hopefully GW2 is no where close to that scenario anyway, and like others have said here the company has a decent track record of understanding their place in the market.. GW1 was a clear success, yes run on a meagre budget but popular and profitable for many years, nothing thus far suggests to me that GW2 won’t follow suit, albeit with the occasional bump and grovel scenario along the way.

nekitten234:

Calae.1738:

Mature content = blood, nudity, terror, coarse language, violence, politics, economics, moral controversy and scientific material.

(edit: added bold)

Bold part sounds much more like teenage – (very) young adult dream movie/show/game …

One by one:

• blood: yeah, right — people really want to look at “real” blood and gore (trust me, it’s not even remotely fun seeing it IRL)
• nudity: (“Internet is for pr0n, …”) — nudity just because of sake of nudity is everything else than mature
• terror/violence: playing games should be fun or I missed something — try it IRL and someone will teach you new real meaning of that … fast
• coarse language: kitten, kitten, bulkitten, oh kitten, … my kitten, wow kitten … WOW I’m 100% mature 1337 guy (and I’m the one who can be very explicit when talking)
• politics/economics: oh gawd no, never, ever — we have enough of those “types” IRL to have another batch in game (well in game we maybe can kill get rid of them … hmm that’s not that bad idea)
• moral controversy: ?? (very, very broad), we hate them because they are <insert difference here> or “yeah, I can act as real #$%^@# in game w00t!”
• scientific material: huh? Hard science? You want to travel 12hr to get to next place, be killed in one hit as humans are not that fire-proof, perma death, spend weeks or more to get enough material to make that leet sword, spend tons of time working to get finances in order to buy something … erm … RL (still) have better gfx and all of that in it. (and I’m long time fan of the hard SF)

To be clear, I don’t mind having things from the list in game (except politics #$#%) but it should be in because it’s FUN not just to call it “mature/adult”.

Why anything from above is called “mature” escapes me completely. And I do love dark/no win scenarios, but done right (sadly, very rare), not just created to get that (whatever) title.

BTW can anyone name one title who has above things which is not swarmed with “not very mature people” (deliberately omitted age as that is not real measure for it)?

The list above are adult subjects.

Teenagers should not be allowed to be exposed to some of theses subjects because their brains haven’t fully developed. A brain that isn’t fully developed can be confused or experience psychological trauma. Our society has deemed it prudent to shelter developing brains from certain types of material.

Politics, economics, moral controversy and scientific material are important subjects. Even teenagers can benefit from these. These subjects shape the world we live in. Not understanding them or being afraid of them provides little hope for making a better world.

But there is evidence the game is doing well…

1. There are many active players during off-peak hours.
2. It has been repeatedly said in multiple interviews that the game sold well beyond expectations, and concurrent players and repeat log-ins have stabilized. This is reflected by point 1.
3. the GW2 community is active and stable, as seen on these and other community forums. (i.e. reddit)
4. The trading post is still moving extremely fast, which shows that the are many active traders.

The game is healthy, and there is plenty of evidence in and out of the game that reflects that. You don’t need a million active players to have a successful and healthy MMO.

The argument about “stickiness” only works with subscription games – the whole point of the addictive grind was that it attracted a bunch of people who were likely to stick with the game and keep paying a monthly subscription, and that formed the core playerbase. That logic doesn’t have any meaning with B2P. All you need with B2P is to have enough players around to create a background buzz for casual players, to have enough in the cash shop to let casual players get a boost now and then, and to engender enough enjoyment for casual players so that they’ll pony up for the next expansion. Naturally, it’s nice if some hardcore players stick around too, but it’s not as CRUCIAL for the game’s life and longevity as it would be for a subscription MMO.

There’s a different kind of “stickiness” that comes from the virtual world aspect (people like hanging out in this particular virtual place), and that’s what ANet are aiming for with the “living world” idea.

There’s a different kind of “stickiness” again that comes from hardcore PvP players. The PvP scene in GW2 is pretty healthy so far as I can see.

At the end of the day, basing your income on players who are liable to become heavily addicted was never a good idea. It led to a hardcore sticky playerbase, true, and that hardcore playerbase created good viral marketing for the game, true; but the bulk of subscribers was always casual anyway (check the stats for WoW) and there was always a high churn rate of casual players anyway. ANet have just gone with the flow of that and reversed the design emphasis from hardcore > casual to casual > hardcore.

So all that happens is that the game has some hardcore features but maybe not enough to satisfy some hardcore players, and instead of creating a positive buzz for the game, those players bellyache and create a slight negative buzz. But my impression from around the net is that most players who play GW2 absolutely love it to bits precisely BECAUSE it’s a game they can easily pick up and put down, and with the living world content, it is sufficiently interesting and different each time you pick it up.

Vayne.8563:

Hmm I don’t know. For a lot of people how well the game is doing does matter. I’m probably personally not one of them, unless it’s doing so badly that I can’t find a guild or people to play with. That would be pretty annoying.

But when you consider that at this point in it’s growth, the well-selling SWToR was already laying off a decent chunk of staff, it certain gives me reason to believe the game isn’t doing badly.

No it doesn’t mean that Vayne… SWTOR was a huge team if you read back into the history of its making… huge.
Many of those people were there solely to get the game designed, built and packaged up… then when it launched many of those contracts ended.. that’s not letting go.. they were employed to get it from A to B… to get to C they needed different skillsets.
Sure there are always casualties in MMO’s and SWTOR is probably the biggest exabple of how not to launch but with the huge IP behind them, EA’s apparent bottomless moneypit and Biowares strength in the SP RPG market it was a sure thing.. and box sales suggested that… but they quickly found out that supporting an MMORPG is different and more complex… but the noted layoff were always going to happen after launch they simply didn’t need them all.. but they also went out and recruited different roles in order to take in onwards.. then when F2P came along (and personally I think that was always the plan) they went out and recruited a range of different skills again.

All MMO’s begin with a larger team than what’s is needed once it launches.. ANET will be no different.. except its highly likely ANET had a much leaner team to begin with than BEAWARE (pardon the pun ) so when they cut out the surplus after bedding in, its much less noticeable, but I bet they have especially those on contracts but that’s not a reflection of failure .. simply business balancing.

Vayne.8563:

why is Anet hiring?

Sales Reps for the cash shop?

gurugeorge.9857:

The argument about “stickiness” only works with subscription games – the whole point of the addictive grind was that it attracted a bunch of people who were likely to stick with the game and keep paying a monthly subscription, and that formed the core playerbase. That logic doesn’t have any meaning with B2P. All you need with B2P is to have enough players around to create a background buzz for casual players, to have enough in the cash shop to let casual players get a boost now and then, and to engender enough enjoyment for casual players so that they’ll pony up for the next expansion. Naturally, it’s nice if some hardcore players stick around too, but it’s not as CRUCIAL for the game’s life and longevity as it would be for a subscription MMO.

There’s a different kind of “stickiness” that comes from the virtual world aspect (people like hanging out in this particular virtual place), and that’s what ANet are aiming for with the “living world” idea.

There’s a different kind of “stickiness” again that comes from hardcore PvP players. The PvP scene in GW2 is pretty healthy so far as I can see.

At the end of the day, basing your income on players who are liable to become heavily addicted was never a good idea. It led to a hardcore sticky playerbase, true, and that hardcore playerbase created good viral marketing for the game, true; but the bulk of subscribers was always casual anyway (check the stats for WoW) and there was always a high churn rate of casual players anyway. ANet have just gone with the flow of that and reversed the design emphasis from hardcore > casual to casual > hardcore.

So all that happens is that the game has some hardcore features but maybe not enough to satisfy some hardcore players, and instead of creating a positive buzz for the game, those players bellyache and create a slight negative buzz. But my impression from around the net is that most players who play GW2 absolutely love it to bits precisely BECAUSE it’s a game they can easily pick up and put down, and with the living world content, it is sufficiently interesting and different each time you pick it up.

Anet is certainly banking on that premise, which is also a unique feature in the genre.

However, I disagree that Anet is prioritizing casual players (as in “just here to hang out and have fun”) over any other kind of player.

I think Anet is shooting for the mainstream gamer. Not the “7 hour marathon everyday” player, not the “play for an hour and log off for 2 weeks” player.

I’ve seen several people argue that not focusing on one of these two groups (Casual, Hardcore) is a recipe for failure, citing the concept of trying to please everyone pleases no one. The major failing in this logic is that the player base isn’t binary.

To date, I’ve labeled myself a casual gamer, which in MMO parlance is true. In general gaming parlance however, I’m a core gamer. I can play about 14 hours a week, I learn mechanics and drill down into theorycrafting and build experimentation, but not so much that it consumes all of my free time.

This game is tailor-made for core gamers, and because core gamers sit in the middle of the bell curve, the game actually manages to please a large amount of the player base without needing to cater to some niche group on the extremes of the curve.

Mackdose.6504:

But there is evidence the game is doing well…

1. There are many active players during off-peak hours.
2. It has been repeatedly said in multiple interviews that the game sold well beyond expectations, and concurrent players and repeat log-ins have stabilized. This is reflected by point 1.
3. the GW2 community is active and stable, as seen on these and other community forums. (i.e. reddit)
4. The trading post is still moving extremely fast, which shows that the are many active traders.

The game is healthy, and there is plenty of evidence in and out of the game that reflects that. You don’t need a million active players to have a successful and healthy MMO.

No you don’t need large numbers and ANET is probably one of the best in achieving through that scenario.

Forums though are likely not even 1% of the population so basing success on forum activity is not to be trusted imo… especially as active forums are also highly moderated and to some extent controlled.. this one being no different. Also active forums might contain more negatives than positives

Yes I am one of those traders, its an area of MMO’s I quite enjoy….. my shop is always open… actually that’s one thing about GW2 that I prefer there is a variety of rewarding things to do not just raid for gear or farm for mats over and over.. a decent array of choice in a game still in its infancy.

Calae.1738:

nekitten234:

Calae.1738:

Mature content = blood, nudity, terror, coarse language, violence, politics, economics, moral controversy and scientific material.

(edit: added bold)

Bold part sounds much more like teenage – (very) young adult dream movie/show/game …

One by one:

• blood: yeah, right — people really want to look at “real” blood and gore (trust me, it’s not even remotely fun seeing it IRL)
• nudity: (“Internet is for pr0n, …”) — nudity just because of sake of nudity is everything else than mature
• terror/violence: playing games should be fun or I missed something — try it IRL and someone will teach you new real meaning of that … fast
• coarse language: kitten, kitten, bulkitten, oh kitten, … my kitten, wow kitten … WOW I’m 100% mature 1337 guy (and I’m the one who can be very explicit when talking)
• politics/economics: oh gawd no, never, ever — we have enough of those “types” IRL to have another batch in game (well in game we maybe can kill get rid of them … hmm that’s not that bad idea)
• moral controversy: ?? (very, very broad), we hate them because they are <insert difference here> or “yeah, I can act as real #$%^@# in game w00t!”
• scientific material: huh? Hard science? You want to travel 12hr to get to next place, be killed in one hit as humans are not that fire-proof, perma death, spend weeks or more to get enough material to make that leet sword, spend tons of time working to get finances in order to buy something … erm … RL (still) have better gfx and all of that in it. (and I’m long time fan of the hard SF)

To be clear, I don’t mind having things from the list in game (except politics #$#%) but it should be in because it’s FUN not just to call it “mature/adult”.

Why anything from above is called “mature” escapes me completely. And I do love dark/no win scenarios, but done right (sadly, very rare), not just created to get that (whatever) title.

BTW can anyone name one title who has above things which is not swarmed with “not very mature people” (deliberately omitted age as that is not real measure for it)?

The list above are adult subjects.

Teenagers should not be allowed to be exposed to some of theses subjects because their brains haven’t fully developed. A brain that isn’t fully developed can be confused or experience psychological trauma. Our society has deemed it prudent to shelter developing brains from certain types of material.

Politics, economics, moral controversy and scientific material are important subjects. Even teenagers can benefit from these. These subjects shape the world we live in. Not understanding them or being afraid of them provides little hope for making a better world.

These were adult subjects back in the 50s. Most kids have seen far worse things than even I on the internet, and it’s usually someone younger than me showing me the messed up kitten. I’m still young and even I know blood, gore, nudity, etc. Is just a calling card for the immature.

I can kind of see where you are coming from though, and I agree children should not be exposed to that kind of crap even if it is already the norm.

gurugeorge.9857:

The argument about “stickiness” only works with subscription games – the whole point of the addictive grind was that it attracted a bunch of people who were likely to stick with the game and keep paying a monthly subscription, and that formed the core playerbase. That logic doesn’t have any meaning with B2P. All you need with B2P is to have enough players around to create a background buzz for casual players, to have enough in the cash shop to let casual players get a boost now and then, and to engender enough enjoyment for casual players so that they’ll pony up for the next expansion. Naturally, it’s nice if some hardcore players stick around too, but it’s not as CRUCIAL for the game’s life and longevity as it would be for a subscription MMO.

There’s a different kind of “stickiness” that comes from the virtual world aspect (people like hanging out in this particular virtual place), and that’s what ANet are aiming for with the “living world” idea.

There’s a different kind of “stickiness” again that comes from hardcore PvP players. The PvP scene in GW2 is pretty healthy so far as I can see.

At the end of the day, basing your income on players who are liable to become heavily addicted was never a good idea. It led to a hardcore sticky playerbase, true, and that hardcore playerbase created good viral marketing for the game, true; but the bulk of subscribers was always casual anyway (check the stats for WoW) and there was always a high churn rate of casual players anyway. ANet have just gone with the flow of that and reversed the design emphasis from hardcore > casual to casual > hardcore.

So all that happens is that the game has some hardcore features but maybe not enough to satisfy some hardcore players, and instead of creating a positive buzz for the game, those players bellyache and create a slight negative buzz. But my impression from around the net is that most players who play GW2 absolutely love it to bits precisely BECAUSE it’s a game they can easily pick up and put down, and with the living world content, it is sufficiently interesting and different each time you pick it up.

I thik the game will want to attract to all comers imo.. casual or hardcore…. eventually I think they will want to try and cover all the bases.. that protects thir longevity.. even casual players have the choice to say don’t buy, just like hardcore players might log off… swings and roundabouts or horse for courses… all that matters to ANET is that the content they deliver has the right kind of hooks to entice both sides of the player base to part with hard cash.
Marketing is great tool to get the ball rolling… but as it evolves so to will their marketing and content.. at least I hope so because it needs to challenging us to log back in whether we play a few hours a week or 50 hours, whether we like to catch butterflies or whether we want to decimate the dragon hoards, whether we wanna solo quest or hardcore dungeon run etc …

clay.7849:

@Xia
So, you think that a game without a subscription model can’t die? What would you count as a metric that would mean this game is dying or not?

I never said it can’t die, I’m saying the metrics to measure it are quite different that what you’re expecting. But to answer your question it would be concurrency numbers after major content releases and sales numbers for expansions.

Don’t forget that even subscription model MMOs have considerable concurrent user drops between content updates. People get tired of the same content / raids, they acquired all the gear on the treadmill and they put the game on the back burner. You know the game is healthy when they return for the next content update. Most don’t cancel their subscription while waiting, either due to laziness (my reason in the past) or because they are paying 6 months at a time.

I’d also like to point out that GW2 exceeded Arena Nets sales expectations. Heck they even closed the online store for a while (to upgrade server capacity). Since launch they also added a few more server choices.

I know you’re disappointed in GW2 clay and its clouding your judgement. Its one reason why I hate discussing anything with you. Now I’ll point out some of that for you.

clay.7849:

Here is my definition of failed: not reaching the lofty sales goals that everyone keeps saying AAA MMO’s aspire to. <snip> But, the game certainly failed. <snip> If GW2 doesn’t surpass the same kinds of sales figures as GW1, then it hasn’t done what everyone said it was set out to do. They could have had healthy growth from GW1 to GW2 if the games were more alike than different just marketing to their previous customers.

Did GW1 sell over three million copies? If so, why did GW2 sales outpace what Arena Net expected?

clay.7849:

My biggest problem with the manifesto is that they said that people who loved GW1 will love GW2.

Surely as a “marketing director” you didn’t take that as a promise did you? I believe this is the main point of all your posts; you miss playing a healer (monk) in your old guild. “The good old days” mentality. Sorry you’re disappointed but you’ll have to look past your feeling to see the big picture as they say.

What do I see? I see a solid base of an MMO like game. I see Arena Net trying to implement the illusion of a gear treadmill and progression for those who like that sort of thing. They also made all the content accessible; you don’t need to reach max level to enjoy the game. They made the game-play fun, I love the combat its great.

They do have things to fix however. Culling in PvE is horrible. Profession balance is needed especially for rangers (feels bland) and engineers (lacks synergy). They also have a fair share of bugs to fix too. The personal story also could use some love and an extension in the future. And of course, they need more content. I would also love to see more difficult group content added.

So no, GW2 isn’t perfect. Its a good starting point though and has a lot of potential for the future. Because of that, I believe it’s first expansion will sell quite well. Well enough at least for the game to be successful.

Success isn’t measured by dominating market share. Success is profitability and returning customers. Look at GW2 more like a franchise or a brand name. If people feel their purchases in your brand were good, they will keep buying from your brand.

Its almost as busy here as it is in WoW.

BUT the difference is that in WoW to get that busy I need to do cross server content. LFG/LFR. In the zones WoW is dead. WoW is always dead in its zones after people level out. Usually only one zone has any life left a few months after launch.

Here, I see people constantly in every zone I go to. Its hard to find a spot to hide, if one wants to do so.

Some spots are so busy I start getting flickering lag and have to head out…

And I get phased to those copy servers at least a few times a day. Sure its no longer constant like it was at launch, but it happens. At least on my server, GW2 has a very healthy population.

My WoW server BTW, is rated as ‘high to full’ (Wyrmrest Accord). In WoW they cross-server phase zones if they’re too empty. So I -do- see people in low level world zones. But not many, and they are almost never from my own server (it says on the titles above their heads). Once I hit PandaVille, ghost town outside of cities…

There may be less people playing here, but the population seems more healthily balanced around.

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

My biggest problem with the manifesto is that they said that people who loved GW1 will love GW2.

Surely as a “marketing director” you didn’t take that as a promise did you? I believe this is the main point of all your posts; you miss playing a healer (monk) in your old guild. “The good old days” mentality. Sorry you’re disappointed but you’ll have to look past your feeling to see the big picture as they say.

I have 3 monks in GW1 (ok the third one is not leveled). Yeah I miss playing them.

BUT I do -NOT- miss the fact that unless I logged in nobody else could play -anything-…

And that to solve this, they added heroes that were just good enough nobody but people I knew were willing to trust using a player healer anymore. People you knew knew you were not a fool – but random LFG, they could use the NPCs, so why risk me?

I went from completely needed for anything, to near total lockout from all group content unless I ran it with 7 NPCs… Especially after my guild basically became the home of a hundred abandoned accounts…

Oh yeah, and the whole thing that “not everyone loved it, so I’m mad at them” is just foolish… Anyone who takes that kind of marketing speech that seriously is going to have trouble functioning in the modern media-driven world…

Kichwas.7152:

Anyone who takes that kind of marketing speech that seriously is going to have trouble functioning in the modern media-driven world…

Seems to me marketing has been the same since the 1980’s.. Its some serious koolaid if you know what I mean.

I don’t feel the marketing for GW2 was dishonest, I also don’t feel it exaggerated too much either. It was especially honest once they lifted the NDA on the beta.. the internet was flooded with information and first impressions. That’s when I bought (pre-bough) a copy. I knew full well it wasn’t going to be a raiding game, or something like the other MMOs I played. Being able to play some weekends before release was a bonus.

So yeah, I’m not sure how someone can claim they were lied to (extreme case) or mislead.

Xia.3485:

Kichwas.7152:

Anyone who takes that kind of marketing speech that seriously is going to have trouble functioning in the modern media-driven world…

Seems to me marketing has been the same since the 1980’s.. Its some serious koolaid if you know what I mean.

I don’t feel the marketing for GW2 was dishonest, I also don’t feel it exaggerated too much either. It was especially honest once they lifted the NDA on the beta.. the internet was flooded with information and first impressions. That’s when I bought (pre-bough) a copy. I knew full well it wasn’t going to be a raiding game, or something like the other MMOs I played. Being able to play some weekends before release was a bonus.

So yeah, I’m not sure how someone can claim they were lied to (extreme case) or mislead.

I’ve been on the front lines of the ANET LIES debate since release (I’m not proud of that) and generally it’s caused by unchecked expectations and poor reading comprehension.
Also, confirmation bias.

Mackdose.6504:

I’ve been on the front lines of the ANET LIES debate since release (I’m not proud of that) and generally it’s caused by unchecked expectations and poor reading comprehension.
Also, confirmation bias.

I think most arguments are caused by those things. We’re all human after all.

@Kia

Do you understand what ANet stood for when they made GW1? It is quite different than what they have become in GW2. So much so that 2 of the three founders an other key developers left the company.

This is why I, and many other GW1 players do not like GW2 and feel lied to.

No matter what you say, the philosophy of the two games are quite different.

Also, my reasoning for this game not achieving the goals supposedly set out for it, is that it has really fallen in to the same cycle of evey other MMO that has failed to achieve those goals as well. Sure, it may be different, but I see nothing yet to make me think it will. B2P or not has nothing to do with it.

I also realize that it I all my opinion and people believe things very differently. Just not think I’m one of only a few that feel the way I do. Just like I believe there are people that feel quite opposite like yourself and Vayne.

I despise the GW2 is dying thread as much as the GW2 is going to dominate everything threads. Why? Because the game is too young to tell anything. The initial sales figures have nothing to do with how good this game is. That was all marketing hype and last success from GW1.

You can argue with me all I want, but none of my opinions are all that controversial. They are just a difference of opinion.

GW2 is still the only other online RPG game I have ever played for any length of time, other than GW1.

It’s easy to do “well” when you charge zero monthly subscription to play the game, whereas your competitor is charging $15/month. People are going to play this game because it’s free, even if it wasn’t a good game. The question is how “well” the company is doing when they have $0 from subscriptions and their competitor is getting tens of millions $$$$$$ of dollars each month from subscriptions.

Calae.1738:

The list above are adult subjects.

Teenagers should not be allowed to be exposed to some of theses subjects because their brains haven’t fully developed. A brain that isn’t fully developed can be confused or experience psychological trauma. Our society has deemed it prudent to shelter developing brains from certain types of material.

Skipping this one, most of the items are based on one or another “morale” standard and not on something real. “Exposing” teenagers changed levels and meaning too much to even have time to track them all down (80ies boobz/horror/comedy/… “teenage” movies for example). Anything else said on this topic will lead in one of the holy flame wars I witnessed from dawn of the BBS/FIDO/usenet times. (and vi is the best editor, fact!)

Calae.1738:

Politics, economics, moral controversy and scientific material are important subjects. Even teenagers can benefit from these. These subjects shape the world we live in. Not understanding them or being afraid of them provides little hope for making a better world.

Correct me if I’m wrong but we are on the game forum, talking about game … why one in the world want those “serious” themes in the game?! Or you advocate that we should add to the football (european) politic/science/moral stuff — well we have some off field, but why not in the game, it will make them so mature, so adult … and so empty (no time to work on the last idea but sound “interesting”)

legion.7518:

It’s easy to do “well” when you charge zero monthly subscription to play the game, whereas your competitor is charging $15/month. People are going to play this game because it’s free, even if it wasn’t a good game.

If MMO players only played MMOs then what you’re saying is perfectly legit. However, how many people here only play MMOs?

I can’t speak on your behalf, or others here, but I certainly wouldn’t be playing GW2 if it wasn’t fun. I’d rather play another game, like Bioshock Infinite or the next crysis. Or I’d go out for a movie, watch TV, play billiards or any other activity really.

I don’t think anyone should play a game they don’t find fun. Heck, I don’t think anyone should do boring activities in a game just for an in-game reward either >_>

legion.7518:

It’s easy to do “well” when you charge zero monthly subscription to play the game, whereas your competitor is charging $15/month. People are going to play this game because it’s free, even if it wasn’t a good game. The question is how “well” the company is doing when they have $0 from subscriptions and their competitor is getting tens of millions $$$$$$ of dollars each month from subscriptions.

Try hundreds of millions of $ per month in WoWs case. No idea what the current player base is for WoW, but between 6-7 mill still. 7 mill subs = 105 mill $/month.

And you dont need to wonder how well Anet is doing, apparently they did well enough with GW1 to spend money on doing GW2. So I’m pretty sure they arent losing money. Sub based games is a dinosaur in gaming, it’s outdated and needs a mercy shot in the back of the neck.

Even a so gimmicky and die hard fan centered game as Star Trek Online is doing very well, well enough to release an expansion very very soon. It has also become free to play, but there are players everywhere. But then again, they made the smart choice at start, with 1 single server with instances (overflows). Same as GW2, not an insane amount of servers like SWToR and Rift had. GW2 never went live with the expectations to get 8 mill subs, SWToR and Rift on the otherhand did.

I can safely say, the two most enjoyable MMOs currently on the market are STO and GW2 imo. Free to play so you dont feel forced to play either or, both have some of the best combat systems I can imagine and both have a healthy amount of people to play with everywhere. Something not even WoW can beat with its ghost town zones all the way up to max level, WoW the game that needs x-server lfg.

clay.7849:

@Kia
Do you understand what ANet stood for when they made GW1? It is quite different than what they have become in GW2.

First off I’m not a car manufacturer.

Now I find what you wrote disturbing. It’s like saying your favorite band stands for xyz then getting all uptight after their next album took a different creative direction. Arena Net is a company. They make games they want to play and they make games for a living. Anything else is subjective (you’re feelings) and subject to change.

clay.7849:

This is why I, and many other GW1 players do not like GW2 and feel lied to.

I play a game when its fun. I don’t play games for their perceived social status, moral grounds or other such nonsense. A game is a diversion, it doesn’t define who I am. Much like music.

clay.7849:

Also, my reasoning for this game not achieving the goals supposedly set out for it, is that it has really fallen in to the same cycle of evey other MMO that has failed to achieve those goals as well.

Yeah, are you talking about the fan bases perceived goal (wanting a wow killer or whatever) or the publishers goal (to make a return on investment).

You took this into the surreal. Seriously.

Well music can define you as a person, it can also connect with your moral grounds and opinions. Actually alot of music is like that.

For instance, if a band completely turned their view in the opposite direction and did it under the same name I think many people would get extremly mad. For instance a black metal band suddenly decide to make white metal instead under the same band name would probably cause a riot among their fans.

Anets change however isnt anywhere close to something as extreme as that and games are usually not an expression of views and opinions on the real world, so I dont see what people feel has been done so wrongly by Anet. They’ve made a great game.

The only wrong turn taken by Anet imo is the alt-unfriendlyness being showered over us altoholics each patch.

SneakyErvin.3056:

Well music can define you as a person, it can also connect with your moral grounds and opinions. Actually alot of music is like that.

For instance, if a band completely turned their view in the opposite direction and did it under the same name I think many people would get extremly mad.

A long time ago I would have agreed with you completely. But time passes and things change. We grow older, wiser and less passionate about things I guess. As it stands the most defining things about my life are the systems I design at work (aka my career) and my family.

Even if the music’s theme resonates well with my feeling at the time, in no way does it define me. And I wouldn’t be upset if the artist chose a different direction. Heck, I don’t really care who the artist is and what he believes in. I just like the product.

clay.7849:

Also, my reasoning for this game not achieving the goals supposedly set out for it, is that it has really fallen in to the same cycle of evey other MMO that has failed to achieve those goals as well. Sure, it may be different, but I see nothing yet to make me think it will. B2P or not has nothing to do with it.

What cycle of every other MMO? Define the cycle.

And what nebulous goals is this game (and apparently every MMO) failing to achieve?

clay.7849:

@Kia

Do you understand what ANet stood for when they made GW1? It is quite different than what they have become in GW2. So much so that 2 of the three founders an other key developers left the company.

This is why I, and many other GW1 players do not like GW2 and feel lied to.

Man it must suck when people at work get jobs elsewhere. The whole world comes crashing down.

They should be forced to work at the same company for at least 2 decades, because one decade and then leaving is an obvious sign that the company is a bunch of lying scoundrels.

;)

Kichwas.7152:

clay.7849:

@Kia

Do you understand what ANet stood for when they made GW1? It is quite different than what they have become in GW2. So much so that 2 of the three founders an other key developers left the company.

This is why I, and many other GW1 players do not like GW2 and feel lied to.

Man it must suck when people at work get jobs elsewhere. The whole world comes crashing down.

They should be forced to work at the same company for at least 2 decades, because one decade and then leaving is an obvious sign that the company is a bunch of lying scoundrels.

;)

indeed, its not like one of them wanted to make a different game with something they loved and enjoyed like, say, creat a zombie focused game and mechanics

shame on people wanting to do different things, amirite?

@Kichiwan

We’re not taking about employees getting jobs elsewhere, we’re taking about the founders of a company leaving over creative differences.

To everyone else: feel free to get upset and spew the normal venom of nonsensical garbage. Nothing I said is crazy or outrageous.

AW Lore.5682:

Kichwas.7152:

clay.7849:

@Kia

Do you understand what ANet stood for when they made GW1? It is quite different than what they have become in GW2. So much so that 2 of the three founders an other key developers left the company.

This is why I, and many other GW1 players do not like GW2 and feel lied to.

Man it must suck when people at work get jobs elsewhere. The whole world comes crashing down.

They should be forced to work at the same company for at least 2 decades, because one decade and then leaving is an obvious sign that the company is a bunch of lying scoundrels.

;)

indeed, its not like one of them wanted to make a different game with something they loved and enjoyed like, say, creat a zombie focused game and mechanics

shame on people wanting to do different things, amirite?

Oh, do you know that person in real life? Was that their intention? Sure, that may be what they are doing now, but it may not be the reason they left. I’m sure you can see that there is a difference.

But, I understand I am preaching to the unreasonable fanboy crowd and as such I won’t get anywhere.

SneakyErvin.3056:

For instance, if a band completely turned their view in the opposite direction and did it under the same name I think many people would get extremly mad. For instance a black metal band suddenly decide to make white metal instead under the same band name would probably cause a riot among their fans.

/emote puts in Snoop Lion album.

Oh did you say something?

(/aside: I like that he changed, but he’s not “good” at his new genre, sadly.)

The comparison here would be more if Guild Wars 2 had been a super hero platformer…

Its still fantasy in the same genre and same world.

Players with an eye for detail can often find themselves in places that even look like aged versions of a GW1 location. I spent half the day yesterday running through zones that I could swear felt like Guild Wars 1 maps opened up to let me walk off the ‘path’ (I was in Bloodtide Coast and Lonar’s Pass). It felt amazing because it was like ‘seeing a place you haven’t been to in years, and noting the changes’.

The two games (GW1 and GW2) have an amazing amount in common. Its not at all like Final Fantasy where you’re riding Moas with a sword one game and fighting Cyberpunk jello blob aliens the next. There’s a very solid consistency and continuity here.

Xia.3485:

SneakyErvin.3056:

Well music can define you as a person, it can also connect with your moral grounds and opinions. Actually alot of music is like that.

For instance, if a band completely turned their view in the opposite direction and did it under the same name I think many people would get extremly mad.

A long time ago I would have agreed with you completely. But time passes and things change. We grow older, wiser and less passionate about things I guess. As it stands the most defining things about my life are the systems I design at work (aka my career) and my family.

Even if the music’s theme resonates well with my feeling at the time, in no way does it define me. And I wouldn’t be upset if the artist chose a different direction. Heck, I don’t really care who the artist is and what he believes in. I just like the product.

When it comes to music, texts are important to me, if the artist is trying to get a message across that I dont agree with I wont listen to it. It’s one thing if its a concept and not a pro or anti message.

Movies and games are mostly a different story. They dont have a serious message in the same manner as music, since it’s not built on feelings. Sure, some might try to build on a serious message catering to a certain crowd or view. But when I dont agree or find it enjoyable I avoid it.

And personally the older and wiser I get, the more determined I get about my views I’ve had for years. Things that might have just been a “phase” for other to express their rebellion etc. is in fact a lifestyle or life for some until the day they die, something rooted deeper than just a rebelious fling.

and do you know htem in real life too? do you know wasnt their intention? sure, that may be wha thtey are doing now, bu it may be the reason they left. im sure you can see there is a different.

but i understand, im preaching to the unreasonable haters crowd, and as such, i wont get anywhere.

the point is, yes they left, and if you digged, you’d find a reason why they left, but as far as they left, they still left in good standings wiht one another, and just because they may or may not had a creative difference, doesnt mean they left with anger or dissappointment with one another.

thing is, we do not know, but one thing is certain, things changes, things always change,

there is a saying or refrain or what its called “you dont bathe twice in the same river”, tihngs are always changing, and what they may had been their philosophy in gw1, it doesnt mean it has to be their philosophy in gw2, if change didnt happen, we’d all still be behaving and thinking like we did when we were kids.

clay.7849:

@Kichiwan

We’re not taking about employees getting jobs elsewhere, we’re taking about the founders of a company leaving over creative differences.

Except that didn’t happen. They moved to NCSoft from Anet in 2008 and then left NCsoft in 2009.

Jeff founded Undead Labs.
Patrick went to work as COO for En Masse Entertainment.

Stop making things up.

@Bloodstealer

I used to work in the industry..as a game buyer for a computer store. I’ve been watching this industry for a long time. Sure it’s not really being an insider, but you can’t just lump all businesses in together.

In fact, I was more involved later in publishing, which isn’t all that different, in many ways for software publishing. One of the things about book publishing is that a book will sell more copies in the first 30-60 days of existence than it will for the entire rest of its life. Most books. And the same is also true of most games. The MMO can be the exception.

But if an MMO came out strong and suddenly died off, the thing you do to create sales is to rush out an expansion. This is the typical market reaction. It’s the only thing you can do in increase revenue. You can also try to cut expenses, which means, most often, laying off staff.

I like to deal in facts too. But since the naysayers don’t (and they have a whole lot less to go on), I’ll continue to post threads like this.

I’m not sure you can blanket say business do, when software industry business are far more specific. And again, we see what other MMOs have done that don’t meet expectations.

There are different kinds of speculation and even different kinds of guesses. My guess is an educated guess based on most of a lifetime of watching an industry. It could still be wrong.

But it’s not just a position pulled out of thin air.

Game development requires many different specializations, so it’s not unheard of to shuffle or even lay off personnel once the is little or no use for their specialization. It all depends on which direction management wants to take development, not necessarily the health of the game. Unless knowledge of at least the kinds of employees laid off is provided, information of layoffs may as well be pulled out of thin air.

Speaking which, what happened to certain designers at GW2? We don’t really hear from designers like Eric Flannum anymore. Speaking of which two of the three founding members of ArenaNet aren’t here anymore. I’m not trying to insinuate anything (well, I am actually and insinuate is all I can really do), but maybe there have been major layoffs at ArenaNet as well.

TwoBit.5903:

Game development requires many different specializations, so it’s not unheard of to shuffle or even lay off personnel once the is little or no use for their specialization. It all depends on which direction management wants to take development, not necessarily the health of the game. Unless knowledge of at least the kinds of employees laid off is provided, information of layoffs may as well be pulled out of thin air.

Speaking which, what happened to certain designers at GW2? We don’t really hear from designers like Eric Flannum anymore. Speaking of which two of the three founding members of ArenaNet aren’t here anymore. I’m not trying to insinuate anything (well, I am actually and insinuate is all I can really do), but maybe there have been major layoffs at ArenaNet as well.

One of the company founders left off early in the game’s history. The other one went to produce a Zombie MMO. I’m sure, like in any creative project, there must have been either creative or personal differences. I can’t see walking out on a game as late as Jeff Strand did without him being unhappy. Though, actually, before he left Anet, he worked for NCsoft first. From what he said in statements, he was tired of being an excecutive and wanted to be on the front line again. I’m guessing there’s more to it than that, but it’s just a guess.

Eric Flannum is still working for Anet. He just isn’t fronting the media anymore. This is probably because Colin is so popular with a certain segment.

In a lot of games, concept artists leave toward the end of production (but less so in MMOs since there will likely be expansions) though Anet did lose it’s head concept artist…but he was hired away by another company.

The difference is, when a company lays off 30% of it’s staff or 50% of it’s staff, that’s when you know there are problems. When a company loses a few individuals, that’s not publicized as much because it’s part of doing business. Happens all the time.

SWToR laid off a big percentage of it’s staff and when you do that, you really can’t hide it. It becomes news. Same thing with what happened with Big Huge Games (Curt Shillings company, the guys who made Kingdoms of Amular). Their death was pretty public (and a bloody mess). One of the highest guys in Funcomm, pretty sure it was the CEO, resigned the day TSW launched. That raised some eyebrows, but a short time later they lost a third of their staff due to disappointing sales figures.

You hear about stuff like this. If Anet had to lay off more than ten percent of their staff, it would be news and it would be reported in the business papers. The closest thing we saw was NCSOFT West restructuring at one point, but it didn’t come with a huge loss of jobs.

I follow the business end because it interests me. I’ve been following MMO business news for many years now.

Actually one of the reasons I believe Guild Wars 2 was delayed is because when Jeff Strand left to make his zombie MMO, he took a few keys staff members over with him.

Vayne.8563:

TwoBit.5903:

Game development requires many different specializations, so it’s not unheard of to shuffle or even lay off personnel once the is little or no use for their specialization. It all depends on which direction management wants to take development, not necessarily the health of the game. Unless knowledge of at least the kinds of employees laid off is provided, information of layoffs may as well be pulled out of thin air.

Speaking which, what happened to certain designers at GW2? We don’t really hear from designers like Eric Flannum anymore. Speaking of which two of the three founding members of ArenaNet aren’t here anymore. I’m not trying to insinuate anything (well, I am actually and insinuate is all I can really do), but maybe there have been major layoffs at ArenaNet as well.

One of the company founders left off early in the game’s history. The other one went to produce a Zombie MMO. I’m sure, like in any creative project, there must have been either creative or personal differences. I can’t see walking out on a game as late as Jeff Strand did without him being unhappy. Though, actually, before he left Anet, he worked for NCsoft first. From what he said in statements, he was tired of being an excecutive and wanted to be on the front line again. I’m guessing there’s more to it than that, but it’s just a guess.

Eric Flannum is still working for Anet. He just isn’t fronting the media anymore. This is probably because Colin is so popular with a certain segment.

In a lot of games, concept artists leave toward the end of production (but less so in MMOs since there will likely be expansions) though Anet did lose it’s head concept artist…but he was hired away by another company.

The difference is, when a company lays off 30% of it’s staff or 50% of it’s staff, that’s when you know there are problems. When a company loses a few individuals, that’s not publicized as much because it’s part of doing business. Happens all the time.

SWToR laid off a big percentage of it’s staff and when you do that, you really can’t hide it. It becomes news. Same thing with what happened with Big Huge Games (Curt Shillings company, the guys who made Kingdoms of Amular). Their death was pretty public (and a bloody mess). One of the highest guys in Funcomm, pretty sure it was the CEO, resigned the day TSW launched. That raised some eyebrows, but a short time later they lost a third of their staff due to disappointing sales figures.

You hear about stuff like this. If Anet had to lay off more than ten percent of their staff, it would be news and it would be reported in the business papers. The closest thing we saw was NCSOFT West restructuring at one point, but it didn’t come with a huge loss of jobs.

I follow the business end because it interests me. I’ve been following MMO business news for many years now.

Actually one of the reasons I believe Guild Wars 2 was delayed is because when Jeff Strand left to make his zombie MMO, he took a few keys staff members over with him.

Heres only interesting thing I can find so far on Jeff lol

http://uk.gamespot.com/news/guild-wars-cocreator-leaves-ncsoft-6215166?tag=latestheadlines%3Btitle%3B1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Strain

From my PoV it’s doing pretty well. I played religiously for the first month, I clocked up hundreds of hours. But after starting University, I began to play less and ever since November I have returned each time new content has been added. I played a fair bit over Wintersday. And returned each month for the current F&F content. I’m definitely a casual player, I don’t look into builds too much and hyper-analyse mechanics.

But every time I’ve come back, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed it and most importantly, I’m seeing players everywhere. I am a player who thrives on a busy server, if it’s empty, it really puts me off, I hate the eeryness. But I’ve not experienced that yet so I just keep coming back whenever I can do.

Hopefully this continues for years to come, GW2 is one of my favourite games of all time, in fact it sits just below Shenmue 1 & 2 for the Dreamcast, so I regard it quite highly.

Vayne.8563:

Actually one of the reasons I believe Guild Wars 2 was delayed is because when Jeff Strand left to make his zombie MMO, he took a few keys staff members over with him.

Is the zombie MMO going anywhere? Cause I like the sound of that. Got a name?

Mackdose.6504:

To answer the topic question:

The game is clearly doing well. After 7 months, AoC, WAR, SWTOR were basically dead, with very few people playing content on a regular basis compared to what we have now in GW2.

Difference is GW2 had the very good fortune to launch in a bubble without much competition which exists to this day. WvW for example major guilds have said they are really just biding their time until TESO and Archeage come out, then beyond that there is Camelot Unchained. For PvE there is also Wildstar as well as the above and EQ Next on the horizon.

morrolan.9608:

Mackdose.6504:

To answer the topic question:

The game is clearly doing well. After 7 months, AoC, WAR, SWTOR were basically dead, with very few people playing content on a regular basis compared to what we have now in GW2.

Difference is GW2 had the very good fortune to launch in a bubble without much competition which exists to this day. WvW for example major guilds have said they are really just biding their time until TESO and Archeage come out, then beyond that there is Camelot Unchained. For PvE there is also Wildstar as well as the above and EQ Next on the horizon.

And after they have played those games, there will be more games on the horizon for them to look forward to and eventually to start playing. It’s in the nature of some people to jump from game to game as the game they are playing gets stale and the shiny wears off.

morrolan.9608:

Mackdose.6504:

To answer the topic question:

The game is clearly doing well. After 7 months, AoC, WAR, SWTOR were basically dead, with very few people playing content on a regular basis compared to what we have now in GW2.

Difference is GW2 had the very good fortune to launch in a bubble without much competition which exists to this day. WvW for example major guilds have said they are really just biding their time until TESO and Archeage come out, then beyond that there is Camelot Unchained. For PvE there is also Wildstar as well as the above and EQ Next on the horizon.

The same could be said for WoW, which launched in a virtual vacuum of competition and Rift as well. WoW, of course, had very little competition for a very long time, but even Rift is still a succcessful MMO, and other “big” games have since come out. DDO is still doing well. Lotro is still making money.

So yeah, some people will go to those big games, but so many big games have disappointed..what makes you think those won’t also. Do you really think those new games at launch will have less bugs than Guild Wars 2 by then? I don’t think so.

A lot of people always went to play MoP and some of those have come back to Guild Wars 2. That’s one of the big advantages of the no subscription fee model. There’s no real downside to looking in every now and again.

And talking about what most of the big guilds are or aren’t doing is pointless. Because unless you’ve polled every player among them, you really have no idea. Do you know how many “big guilds” went to SWToR when it came out, only to leave a month or two later?

GW2 does what it does very well. It supports a casual playstyle, if you choose it, and offers play choices to a varied player base. It’s something that other mmo’s have not quite been able to accomplish, including WoW even with their inclusion of the LFR tools and easier dungeon content. And there is an audience for that type of game. One thing that brings casuals back to this game is the month by month content packs, which introduce new little things to come back and do each month. As long as they continue with this idea, casual players will continue to come back each month, play new content, buy some new stuff in the gem store, and generally be happy with what’s offered.

With the inclusion of Fractals, Ascended, the PVE and PVP leaderboards, perhaps more stuff later, we see content that is geared for a more “hardcore”, time investment oriented player base. While GW2 does offer these things for that play style, they aren’t truly enough to keep that kind of player base here in the long term, but they will also come back each month to take in the new content, but won’t stay as long as a more casual crowd.

For a middle of the road gamer (which I like to think of myself), there is plenty of content from both mindsets to keep me happy. I play some dungeons, some open world pve, some wvw, some jumping puzzles, and some new content. While I do believe the game lacks in some areas (story and lore based content, a charismatic enemy or antagonist that I can hate or see myself fighting against, lack of variety in cosmetic gear choices, crafting being next to useless to either make money with or outfit my character in comprehensive stat builds or fashion), I do believe they will come in time.

What GW2 may lack in clear focus, they make up for in diversity. The problem with building such a diverse game is that it takes tremendous amounts of time and energy to develop each part of the game. I believe GW2 is doing well, but some people are frustrated because their individual play type isn’t being favored over any other.And I believe that is why you see so many GW2 is dead threads.

I just wanted to stop in and say that the game is dead. I logged in and there is no one there whatsoever. I encourage everyone posting/reading on forums to log in and see for yourself. it is completely empty, but all 10k+ of you should log and in see for yourself. I’ll be waiting, and the 10k of us online will be able to see no one is there. That will be our proof.

I got a good one that will get everyone uptight again.

What happens when all the people that just log in for dailies, or boss chests, or CoF runs suddenly realize that the way they are playing the game isn’t fun and decide to quit when another MMO comes out?

Lots of people out there just doing those things…

Is Guild Wars 2 doing well?

Oppressing the weaker class while Enjoying their Pain?

Obviously,

No

Remember; The Joke was on us on April Fools’ Day

clay.7849:

I got a good one that will get everyone uptight again.

What happens when all the people that just log in for dailies, or boss chests, or CoF runs suddenly realize that the way they are playing the game isn’t fun and decide to quit when another MMO comes out?

Lots of people out there just doing those things…

If that is how someone is playing its in their best interest to re-evaluate how they spend their time. And I’m not just talking about switching MMOs… there’s more to life than your computer.

You’re the only one uptight here clay… and if you’re only loging in for dailys may I suggest bioshock infinite?

Burnfall.9573:

Is Guild Wars 2 doing well?

Oppressing the weaker class while Enjoying their Pain?

Obviously,

No

The Joke was on us on April Fools’ Day

Which class would that be? Are you playing a Ranger by any chance?

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

I got a good one that will get everyone uptight again.

What happens when all the people that just log in for dailies, or boss chests, or CoF runs suddenly realize that the way they are playing the game isn’t fun and decide to quit when another MMO comes out?

Lots of people out there just doing those things…

If that is how someone is playing its in their best interest to re-evaluate how they spend their time. And I’m not just talking about switching MMOs… there’s more to life than your computer.

You’re the only one uptight here clay… and if you’re only loging in for dailys may I suggest bioshock infinite?

I’m not uptight at all. I could care less what the fanboys think. I just speak from the heart.

Also, I don’t log in for dailies, but so you deny people do? Do you deny that until recently, there were tons of people just going from boss to boss to collect gold chests?

I would be willing to bet we agree that isn’t the kind of activity that leads to long term investment in a game.

Oh, that’s right, who needs that! It is buy to play! ANet can’t lose!

Burnfall.9573:

Is Guild Wars 2 doing well?

Oppressing the weaker class while Enjoying their Pain?

Obviously,

No

Remember; The Joke was on us on April Fools’ Day

What’s this supposed to mean? If it’s what I think it means, nerfing classes does not indicate how well a game is doing.