New skills I keep bumping into feel extremely effective and have made certain classes harder to deal with than normal, you can only attain new skills by spending $72 (Australian) so that would essentially make it pay to win right?
I mostly play for the new Free-For-All arena in PvP lobby.
….. And Elementalist.
New skills I keep bumping into feel extremely effective and have made certain classes harder to deal with than normal, you can only attain new skills by spending $72 (Australian) so that would essentially make it pay to win right?
Most likely feels harder now just because it is new and you haven’t learned how to deal with the new skills yet.
I would never count an expansion as pay to win.
I associate “pay to win” only with cash shop (gem store) kind of junk, like just stat improvements without any content associated.
An expansion should be expected to give new stuff, some of which is better than old stuff (as perfect balance is impossible and this game doesn’t come anywhere near that).
So I’d say no.
Question. If WoW were to bring out an expansion that gives the purchasers 10 more levels and they completely own the non buyers in PvP, is that p2w?
I have no idea, only online games I play is LoL and GW2 because they are not pay to win, you pay for vanity. (PC wise anyway) But if you mean you could up your 80 rank in GW2 to level 90, then yes that would be pay to win, you’re paying for better stats which would make you stronger.
At the other guy: I understand with expansions comes lots of shiny new things, such as new skills, but those skills are currently stronger than the counterparts, so to be on par with it I’ll essentially have to pay $72 to keep up and to be just as effective. That part feels like Pay to Win, where as receiving a glider and a few maps would not be, but because it effects our skills directly that would essentially be pay to win in my books as it greatly separates payers from non-payers.
This is where my confusion comes in…
I mostly play for the new Free-For-All arena in PvP lobby.
….. And Elementalist.
New skills I keep bumping into feel extremely effective and have made certain classes harder to deal with than normal, you can only attain new skills by spending $72 (Australian) so that would essentially make it pay to win right?
Most likely feels harder now just because it is new and you haven’t learned how to deal with the new skills yet.
Nice perspective. Thanks for sharing that with me
I mostly play for the new Free-For-All arena in PvP lobby.
….. And Elementalist.
Question. If WoW were to bring out an expansion that gives the purchasers 10 more levels and they completely own the non buyers in PvP, is that p2w?
I have no idea, only online games I play is LoL and GW2 because they are not pay to win, you pay for vanity. (PC wise anyway) But if you mean you could up your 80 rank in GW2 to level 90, then yes that would be pay to win, you’re paying for better stats which would make you stronger.
At the other guy: I understand with expansions comes lots of shiny new things, such as new skills, but those skills are currently stronger than the counterparts, so to be on par with it I’ll essentially have to pay $72 to keep up and to be just as effective. That part feels like Pay to Win, where as receiving a glider and a few maps would not be, but because it effects our skills directly that would essentially be pay to win in my books as it greatly separates payers from non-payers.
This is where my confusion comes in…
Normally games give the purchasers of expansions more levels, skills, and/or professions. That’s standard. Like my example, with each expansion WoW gives the buyers 10 extra levels which means they own the non buyers in PvP. They have also given the buyers new professions and abilities. Gw2 is unusual in mmos because they haven’t done the plus 10 levels like all the others.
It’s not considered p2w for a game to up level the purchasers of an expansion. P2w is the individual selling of armor, weapons, skills, etc that are better than anything you can get in game.
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
The intent is horizontal progression, not vertical. If some of the new skills are “better,” it’s possible that the tuning is not yet complete. One reason for a beta is to do that.
Question. If WoW were to bring out an expansion that gives the purchasers 10 more levels and they completely own the non buyers in PvP, is that p2w?
I have no idea, only online games I play is LoL and GW2 because they are not pay to win, you pay for vanity. (PC wise anyway) But if you mean you could up your 80 rank in GW2 to level 90, then yes that would be pay to win, you’re paying for better stats which would make you stronger.
At the other guy: I understand with expansions comes lots of shiny new things, such as new skills, but those skills are currently stronger than the counterparts, so to be on par with it I’ll essentially have to pay $72 to keep up and to be just as effective. That part feels like Pay to Win, where as receiving a glider and a few maps would not be, but because it effects our skills directly that would essentially be pay to win in my books as it greatly separates payers from non-payers.
This is where my confusion comes in…
Normally games give the purchasers of expansions more levels, skills, and/or professions. That’s standard. Like my example, with each expansion WoW gives the buyers 10 extra levels which means they own the non buyers in PvP. They have also given the buyers new professions and abilities. Gw2 is unusual in mmos because they haven’t done the plus 10 levels like all the others.
It’s not considered p2w for a game to up level the purchasers of an expansion. P2w is the individual selling of armor, weapons, skills, etc that are better than anything you can get in game.
That also may help my confusion, GW2 and LoL are the only online PC games I play to which I have put roughly $2000+ into supporting the companies, more into league as I own nearly every skin and have played since release… I have collection problems.
I mostly play for the new Free-For-All arena in PvP lobby.
….. And Elementalist.
Most likely feels harder now just because it is new and you haven’t learned how to deal with the new skills yet.
Pretty much this. I don’t play mesmer so on the last BWE event the chronomancer was mind kitten me really hard. I had a hard time fighting against it, but my friend that play mesmer wasn’t finding it so much more powerful. It doesn’t even know if he want to play it at the expansion.
This always happen when a new build become popular.
The intention is that the new skills will give more options but won’t necessarily be better (or worse) than the current ones. Some of them might become preferred skills for some builds, even meta builds, but they’re not supposed to be universally better.
At the moment there’s two issues with that:
1) The skills (and the specialisations as a whole) are still in beta so they might be over (or under) powered or actually just not working correctly. This should be fixed before the expansion is released.
2) The new skills are unfamiliar, which makes them harder to predict, interpret and counter. Once people get to know them they’ll be easier to deal with.
Danielle Aurorel, Dear Dragon We Got Your Cookies [Nom], Desolation (EU).
Pay to win, no. Pay for an advantage yes. Elite specs are not normal specs, hence the name: elite. At the moment some of the elite specs are definitely OP because they haven’t been balanced properly, and as a side effect more people will buy HoT so they can have an advantage in any game mode. I suspect as soon as HoT drops some of these specs will be nerfed into the ground, if not you can throw what little is left of balance out the window. I find it curious that even though Anet know burning is OP at the moment they haven’t touched it for about 3 months, why, maybe it is because three of the new specs rely heavily on burns. Maybe this is too cynical, or maybe this is straight up 101 marketing and economics.
The intent is horizontal progression, not vertical. If some of the new skills are “better,” it’s possible that the tuning is not yet complete. One reason for a beta is to do that.
Also, the new skills need to feel better, at least initially, otherwise there would be no reason to leave the familiar spec & playstyle you know and are comfortable & competent with.
Expect tuning down to less OP levels some time after HoT hits for real.
Also: the game is p2w in that one must play to win and must pay to play. So one must pay to win, but there are enough steps in between that it doesn’t count in the way the cliche is normally used.
I find it curious that even though Anet know burning is OP at the moment they haven’t touched it for about 3 months, why, maybe it is because three of the new specs rely heavily on burns. Maybe this is too cynical, or maybe this is straight up 101 marketing and economics.
Maybe i’m just naive, but i feel it’s more that they know there are a whole host of balance issues, and rather than hotfix each one reactively and individually, they’re making gradual changes in testing and fine-tuning it before it goes live.
If every day we saw a little hotfix patch with “burning -33%” “Burning +15%” “Burning -10%” “Burning +5%” i’m sure they’d cop a lot of flak for that too.
New skills I keep bumping into feel extremely effective and have made certain classes harder to deal with than normal, you can only attain new skills by spending $72 (Australian) so that would essentially make it pay to win right?
GW2 has always been buy to play.
They copied the model from GW1. There, each campaign (somwhat the same as an expansion) came with unique skills. having all three campaigns and the expansion would give you a huge advantage over just having 1 campaign.
I would not call it pay to win though. This term is generally used for those games where the more you pay, the more change on winning you have.
In GW2 everyone has equal chance IF you buy all the expansions. Considering how other games handle their bussines model it is a very fair model. It is still a bussiness and not a charity (although it may look like charity)
Arise, ye farmers of all nations
Arise, opressed of Tyria!
Not P2W exactly, but I would agree that there is some power creep happening with HoT. Nearly all of the elite specializations give extra functionality, and in areas like PvP, that little extra functionality could make the difference between victory and defeat. Things like Mesmers getting one extra Shatter when F1 – F4 are all on cooldown, Daredevils having 3 dodges instead of 2. This inadvertently boosts the power of traits or runes that tie into those mechanics, and can make certain builds far more effective if you have HoT when compared to a free/vanilla player.
I wouldnt say ’new skills ’ are more powerfull. Especially Ele warhorn is weaker then existing skills. Thief daredevil is cool, but mostly evasive based prof, damage, and cool stuff is not that much on that weapon (though new finisher is cute).
Revenant feels weaker then guardian/warrior (tanky/dps) but has more playstyles/sort of skills. Master of noone, practiser of all arts kinda. But damage on most weapons feels on the low side.
Cool animations is NOT the same as high dps. Keep that in mind.
And: If something is out of wack, weither HoT specializaiton, or base game profession, Anet will tone it down. So pay to win? no.
And you got a chance to buy HoT and get that stuff. Wich is buy to play (not pay to win). You buy for features. Those features may in some cases be advantageous, but that’s the nature of the deal, it’s expansion after all, it expands on the existing, trying to bring new fun into the game.
Legendary weapons can be hidden now!
No excuse anymore for not giving ‘hide mounts’-option
No thanks to unidentified weapons.
As I see these threads appearing it just makes me wonder, “Have these people NEVER bought expansions before?” Like, it doesn’t make sense to me that people say it’s Pay2Win, when it’s a bloody expansion… Pay2Win would be if the Gem Store offered up some OP boosts to your character that gave you a distinct advantage over those who didn’t buy it. Like, it’s an expansion, of coarse it’s going to have MORE added to it, a new class, new gear, new zones, and a whole heck of a lot more, you all have close to two months before it’s out, don’t spend money on things like junk food, soda, beer, pizza whatever if you low on funds, if you REALLY want HoT, you’ll cut out things you DON"T NEED in order to afford it…
New skills I keep bumping into feel extremely effective and have made certain classes harder to deal with than normal, you can only attain new skills by spending $72 (Australian) so that would essentially make it pay to win right?
You say that, yea I’ve been melting the “new” classes in PvP. So for me personally, not even close.
People that ask if anything in GW is pay to win should try playing an actual pay to win game to see the difference.
If you could buy something in the gem store that gave you extra stats that others that didn’t pay can’t get, then that’s pay to win. Everything in GW is aesthetic or convenience. There is no advantage.
Someone please define what exactly “winning” means in a game like this. To me, winning means the game is over and time to go buy a pizza and a drink and wait until the next game happens, I consider this game an “experience”, not something to “beat”. For video games that you can actually beat, I usually delete them and toss the install media in my (rather large) box of old games that I finished playing everything.
This game only seems to have a vague ending sometime in the future when all EDs are defeated and magic once again begins to return to Tyria. Then we wait for the next cycle when the dragons wake up and start consuming the magic and we see GW3 (not holding my breath on that!).
As long as there is some new content to look forward to, this game will have my attention. GW1 is only on my system now in case I ever manage to get those last 3 titles for my GWAMM but GW1 is mostly just taking up space on my HD. The endgame in GW1 was the end of new content… nothing to win, nothing to beat… just something I used to do.
Every game is pay to win, since you need either a console or a computer, both of which cost money. If you don’t have a device, you can’t play a game.
/thread
Using /thread is always a bid weak. You show that you think you know everything and nobody needs to say everything after your statement what is Hilarius..
But even worse when the statement is as bad as this one.
In the past at least you did try to come with arguments (while usually things as “you can never proof that for sure”) but this..? What happened?
He talked about the game, not the hardware.. But if I would really want to go into that.. he could play for free on a friends PC’s… Of course he still needs to eat to stay alive to be able to play the game.. So yeah your right, every game is P2W :S
New skills I keep bumping into feel extremely effective and have made certain classes harder to deal with than normal, you can only attain new skills by spending $72 (Australian) so that would essentially make it pay to win right?
No. “Pay to Win” means you have to spend the money to compete. ANet is balancing PvP for all profs/specs, not HoT vs HoT and Core vs Core. You say your current build just became less competitive in PvP — that could be because HoT specs are OP’d or it could be that you have to step up your own gameplay/builds.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
Every game is pay to win, since you need either a console or a computer, both of which cost money. If you don’t have a device, you can’t play a game.
/thread
Using /thread is always a bid weak. You show that you think you know everything and nobody needs to say everything after your statement what is Hilarius..
But even worse when the statement is as bad as this one.
In the past at least you did try to come with arguments (while usually things as “you can never proof that for sure”) but this..? What happened?
He talked about the game, not the hardware.. But if I would really want to go into that.. he could play for free on a friends PC’s… Of course he still needs to eat to stay alive to be able to play the game.. So yeah your right, every game is P2W :S
If this game is pay to win, then WoW is pay to win. Guild Wars 1 is pay to win, everything is pay to win. It’s a ridiculous statement.
I can’t name an MMO that came out with an expansion that didn’t increase power somehow, somewhere in the game.
In Guild Wars 1, you had classes you could only get if you bought those expansions. You had PvE skills in every game they released. In WoW, every expansion raises the level cap.
I’m joking, because if this isn’t a troll post, it’s not well thought out enough to warrant a serious answer. Any thread that calls an expansion pay to win is trying to change the definition of what pay to win means.
Pay to win refers to cash shop items that give power. That’s all it’s ever referred to. Possibly the only item in the cash shop that was ever remotely pay to win was the clockwork mining pick. That’s it.
Expansions are pay to keep playing. That’s what expansions are.
I know in Guild Wars 1 I was a whole lot more powerful after each expansion.
Question. If WoW were to bring out an expansion that gives the purchasers 10 more levels and they completely own the non buyers in PvP, is that p2w?
The thing is WoW’s PvP is affected by PvE one way or another, In Guild Wars it’s a seperate experience like it should be.
In WoW’s case i’d say it could be considered pay to win, but escentially they are forcing PvP players to get the expansion for PvP just for the levels, or get phased out.
As far as HoT goes, no, first of all specializations won’t be tied down to HoT, you will get them without owning HoT, right now in PvP you see beta characters for testing purposes, I own HoT and yet I don’t use them because they don’t give rewards.
So no, Since beta characters cut your rewards, and are tied to a couple of weekends, and will be available to the public soon, even without owning HoT it’s not pay to win
If when the expansion comes out, pvp teams with expansion members do consistently better against teams without the expansion then yes i think the expansion is P2W.
If when the expansion comes out, pvp teams with expansion members do consistently better against teams without the expansion then yes i think the expansion is P2W.
If when the expansion comes out, pvp teams with expansion members do consistently better against teams without the expansion then yes i think the expansion is P2W.
That would be true if they’re winning simply because they’re using HoT skills and traits that the other teams have little/no chance of countering, and would most likely lose without them.
But it’s also possible for it to go the other way around: if PvP is skill based (as intended) then the players who do consistently better will be the ones who put the most time and effort into the game, and those players are more likely to buy HoT than people who only spend a little time playing.
Or the two could be completely unrelated. It’s possible that a top PvP team could all be wearing gem store armor sets. Would that mean those armor sets are pay-to-win? Even though they’re just skins and make no change to your stats and abilities?
Danielle Aurorel, Dear Dragon We Got Your Cookies [Nom], Desolation (EU).
HAHAHAHA. if some of the new skills aren’t changed from the current beta, then yes, we might be headed in that direction in a certain subtle sense that some failed to catch. but seriously since it’s beta i would expect them to make changes afterwards. don’t keep your hopes up that high though. you know how they are. :P
well, if the defiant becomes more powerful then any other prof then it’s essentially P2W, you pay money to play a prof that has a higher advantage.
also, if HoT gives you stuff you can’t get in the core game which gives you an advantage over core-only owners then it would, no matter how you spin it around, make it P2W.
Oh wow , never thought that expansion could be call P2W now these day.
What now then , are we going to give new skill and job from expansion to F2P to solve this?
well, if the defiant becomes more powerful then any other prof then it’s essentially P2W, you pay money to play a prof that has a higher advantage.
also, if HoT gives you stuff you can’t get in the core game which gives you an advantage over core-only owners then it would, no matter how you spin it around, make it P2W.
Then any expansion that adds new levels, that makes you more powerful than the core non buyers, new professions and skills is pay to win by this definition. Any game such as WoW with 10 new levels per expansion and new professions and skills is pay to win.
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
Oh dear lordy people an expansion is hardly pay to win. Having real gear that has an advantage over other players is pay to win. Having higher passives and stats in general is a pay to win advantage if you are the same level. We should not be even having this discussion.
It depends, Can I use Elite specialization in PvP if I am free player?
If not, it is pay to win.
Can WoW PvP players get the extra 10 levels or the new professions and skills if they don’t buy the expansion?
If not, it’s p2w.
I agree to that statement.
Then every expansion in every MMO that has level increases or character progression since mmos were created is p2w. If all are then singling out this game as p2w is useless since it’s a standard feature of all these games.
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
It depends, Can I use Elite specialization in PvP if I am free player?
If not, it is pay to win.
Can WoW PvP players get the extra 10 levels or the new professions and skills if they don’t buy the expansion?
If not, it’s p2w.
I agree to that statement.
Then every expansion in every game since mmos were created is p2w. If all are then singling out this game as p2w is useless since it’s a standard feature of all these games.
And…?
The only way I wouldn’t consider it pay2win if the people that paid for expansion can’t do anything with or to people that didn’t buy the expansion.
It depends, Can I use Elite specialization in PvP if I am free player?
If not, it is pay to win.
Can WoW PvP players get the extra 10 levels or the new professions and skills if they don’t buy the expansion?
If not, it’s p2w.
I agree to that statement.
Then every expansion in every game since mmos were created is p2w. If all are then singling out this game as p2w is useless since it’s a standard feature of all these games.
And…?
The only way I wouldn’t consider it pay2win if the people that paid for expansion can’t do anything with or to people that didn’t buy the expansion.
I think it’s pretty much standard that an expansion doesn’t keep you out of old territory. (I would say all mmos, but if I did I’m sure someone would find one that didn’t allow you) You are still able to go back into the previous maps whenever you want and interact with the chars there. The wow forums certainly have enough complaints about max levels going into old levels and trashing the NPCs and low level chars there.
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
Wouldn’t that make every game’s expansion pay to win?
If anything HoT is less pay to win than other mmo expansions because it’s not raising level cap or the gear level.
Wouldn’t that make every game’s expansion pay to win?
If anything HoT is less pay to win than other mmo expansions because it’s not raising level cap or the gear level.
It would make every paid game pay to win. Which i guess they are. You can’t win if you don’t play, and you have to pay before you can play.
That’s not what’s usually meant by ‘p2w’ though so that idea can just be dismissed out of hand
Really guys?
You put WoW versus GW2?
WoW has titles that GW2 will never obtain, yet the people who play WoW are willing to pay, not only because they follow a STRONG storyline from earlier games, yet, in WoW expansions they add like ALOT, so the money you waste is enough to cover the cost.
Here they will add a new class, 10 lvl more, raids, and elite specs(who has ever released such a crap expansion and such advantage),really?
So please DONT compare WoW with GW2 its a different stroy and both gameplay gameplay.
Just imagine if WoW had action combat.(as expansion)
would you buy it?
