Guild Wars 2

I understand what Anet was trying to do with the game, but I can’t help but wonder if this is the best execution of getting rid of the trinity.

Imo, there’s nothing inherently wrong with the trinity and “roles” in the first place, but I think the issue is that people don’t like waiting for a good tank or healer and that most people just want to DPS. Now that people have that playstyle(everybody DPS’s in a dungeon) is it really what you wanted?

Only thing removing the trinity ever did was not having to go out of your way to search for a tank or healer.

Kalgarr.5684:

Only thing removing the trinity ever did was not having to go out of your way to search for a tank or healer.

Yeah I guess that’s kind of the point really. If you want to take a general glance at the classes compared to other games, there’s not too much that makes them unique outside of the pet classes being useless(if using pets).

In my opinion removing the trinity did one thing.

Made the game a bit more boring. If boss’s were actually a bit hard then I might have a different opinion but as the OP says dodging and spamming 1 because its the best attack really is all there is to this game.

Perhaps if they added some better skill diversity or skill leveling or custom skills it would be different but its a very locked in thing.

Other than as you and kalgarr said, not having to wait for a specific role, I don’t like it as much as I expected I would. The system in place now makes the encounter design fairly one dimensional in my opinion.

Kalgarr.5684:

Only thing removing the trinity ever did was not having to go out of your way to search for a tank or healer.

That and dumbing down the game to a point where its just spam your keys.

Yes.

15characters

The only reason ppl r sitting there spamming one is bc we werent given proper content to do. the game can be sooooo much more but yet we keep getting easy mode stuff. i hope the teq update is actually difficult and gives ppl a taste of what gw2 combat can actually be and what standing there spamming one will do to u if the content is properly made.

What the removal of the trinity opens up, in my opinion, is the capability of going way beyond the box of tank-n-spank. I know in most MMOs I’ve played, I’ve always boiled down encounters to tank-n-spank with a funky gimmick tossed into it just to make it “interesting”.

Instead of those three simplistic roles, you could be lumped into encounter-specific roles. For instance, you may be asked to utilize environmental weapons, NPC interactions, or even control some sort of remote device.

Honestly, I find it somewhat interesting once I find a better understanding of it. Although, I do wish for more variety in the first 5 abilities.

By taking out the trinity you take a lot of power from the treadmill way of playing a game. If your in the trinity system every one must do there job and gear has a lot to do with that so if you say have a tank who is not able to take dmg as well as they should then you will find that the healer must pick up the slack and at the same time the dps must watch out because now the healer must only help the tank and no longer help the dps. This works for any class type in the trinity system if another class type is not gear as well as the other ppl in your pt.

GW2 should’ve gone with at least 8 core weapon abilities with 4 utility abilities.

Or just make it where you don’t constantly spam keys. It’s not any different than WoW’s key spamming.

I don’t believe that the lack of a trinity is the problem. There is a lot of potential for encounters that don’t rely on just dodging. This game clearly desires a higher focus on action gameplay, but the game can offer much more action gameplay than just the one mechanic that is currently dominating all of the challenging PvE content… dodging.

I have recently started a topic concerning this issue over here.

So if you have some constructive thoughts as to how GW2 can make combat more diverse, that would be a great place to leave your feedback. Saying that something is wrong is allright, but offering solutions or atleast suggestions for improvement is even better.

It may take some time to read it, but I daresay it’s worth your time.

In the end, all bosses all tank-spank really

Just have a guard sit there soaking upo the dmg while everyone else wails on it

Considering most people can’t even press 1 and dodge without stacking toughness and vitality, yes it’s better because it means you can’t fall asleep in encounters like you can with tank, 3 dps and afk heal bot.

Kalgarr.5684:

Only thing removing the trinity ever did was not having to go out of your way to search for a tank or healer.

^ This. Traditional trinity gameplay is far more interesting.

The “damage/control/support” trinity that ANet put in place for GW2 does not really work, due to the Unshakable/Defiant buff mechanic. Since control is useless in dungeons, that leaves damage and support. Support is useful, but not nearly as useful as damage. The best support you can offer in GW2 PVE is to kill things fast, so they don’t kill you (and your comrades). So, DPS is king, and everything else is not. This dynamic essentially leads to zerging everything down, which is not nearly as interesting as traditional tank/healer/dps mechanics.

A lot of the problems lies with mob design. Many of our skills are rendered useless because mobs have their own mechanics.

As one example, many mobs have their own damage reducing or damage increasing mechanics that players can’t modify/strip. Why not just give them protection or fury or might? That would allow players to interact with these boons and to use skills other than 1 (in this example boon stripping/stealing).

Instead of having to dodge when an “deals extra-damage” mob attacks you, you would have the option of stripping his might stacks. More options makes better gameplay.

Ari Kagura.9182:

What the removal of the trinity opens up, in my opinion, is the capability of going way beyond the box of tank-n-spank. I know in most MMOs I’ve played, I’ve always boiled down encounters to tank-n-spank with a funky gimmick tossed into it just to make it “interesting”.

Instead of those three simplistic roles, you could be lumped into encounter-specific roles. For instance, you may be asked to utilize environmental weapons, NPC interactions, or even control some sort of remote device.

Honestly, I find it somewhat interesting once I find a better understanding of it. Although, I do wish for more variety in the first 5 abilities.

Except that the content doesnt make it different thats the problem.

GW2 is not tank and spank, its dps and spank.

Stand in one spot and spam a button is the mantra for GW2. Fingers crossed its gonna change with the new update and that will be a taste of whats to come. But im not holding my breath as to not be let down.

The Trinity adds depth to group play, without, everyone is just a mindless zergling, thus leading to the new title of this game: Grind Wars 2: Heart of the Swarm. Removing it was the first step in the right direction but this game failed to properly execute it.

Other MMOs without active defense just seem stupid after playing GW2. You’re sequencing your character’s attacks and thinking “Do I really have to let that mob hit me, again and again, until I get a heal?”

I do think the way ANet removed the trinity is well done and I do think getting rid of the trinity is a good thing or at least a refreshing change. As others said, the very limited first four skill set is restrictive and for some people makes things a bit boring. But I also think the way skills were done in GW1, as cool as it was, was so abused (think the 55 monk) that it left a scar on ANet’s collective psyche and so they remove the possibility of it happening in GW2.

I don’t understand, how is the trinity better, or “more depth”?

How is a tank and healer falling asleep and occasionally pressing heals or aggro-gain/damage mitigation and then 3 DPS just going afk spamming attacks “deep”?

How can you honestly say, a combat system where any class is able to perform DPS, support and control, and heavily promotes proactive gameplay and defense is worse? Enemy attacking? Dodge. Block. Reflect. In a trinity MMO? Well now the healer can actually press a button, and then boom, back to full HP.

While I might criticise ANet for making bosses with just giant HP pools, boring mechanics etc. etc., they actually have a very solid combat system and were able to balance all of the classes quite well in PvE (minus necros) in addition to giving them very distinct flavours and allowing them to excel in certain aspects while at the same time making it so you don’t need to just stack them in dungeons to be as efficient as possible, you can actually take varied compositions.*

*To anyone who brings up “4 war, 1 mes”, that meta is outdated.

colesy.8490:

I don’t understand, how is the trinity better, or “more depth”?

Here, I’ll quote myself from earlier in the thread:

Spiral Architect.6540:

The “damage/control/support” trinity that ANet put in place for GW2 does not really work, due to the Unshakable/Defiant buff mechanic. Since control is useless in dungeons, that leaves damage and support. Support is useful, but not nearly as useful as damage. The best support you can offer in GW2 PVE is to kill things fast, so they don’t kill you (and your comrades). So, DPS is king, and everything else is not. This dynamic essentially leads to zerging everything down, which is not nearly as interesting as traditional tank/healer/dps mechanics.

Stooperdale.3560:

Other MMOs without active defense just seem stupid after playing GW2. You’re sequencing your character’s attacks and thinking “Do I really have to let that mob hit me, again and again, until I get a heal?”

This. Go and play gw1 again…standing still spamming skills is far more boring.

except that when you were in a trinity , you were just facerolling your keyboard if you were DPS at max range, watching health bars as a healer, and sitting like an idiot holding aggro as a tank taking 0 damage.

I would say the trinity is the more boring.

You obviously not doing any challenging content GW2 has to offer OP.

Also, the defiant buff doesn’t make CC useless. Every player will most likely have a control skill on their bar even if not on purpose. Timing when to break that defiant stack and setting off a stun can turn things around if your team isn’t doing too well against a boss. A thief with a offhand pistol can keep daze on a target almost permanently given the right traits and sigils.

The real problem is that there is no real threat when its a 5 vs 1 AI in a dungeon.

LOL dodge and press 1. First of all what class are you, id really like to just press 1 on my characters….

also you have no idea how bad people are at dodging. Im not even kidding how many times when i pug arah a guy will just stand in lupis aoe (the 3rd phase one and not the stability bubble) and dont dodge just press 2 to win even though its like the easiest lupi move to dodge.

@Spiral Architect
When speed run groups or balanced groups do dungeons they think alot more of just dps. They use support and control. Control of course comes in where u position and i have seen speed run groups do interesting things (see define hc’s recent TA U/U at malrona). Also support is very important when it comes from guardians. WOR and SOTA are really important. Lastly conditions are insanely important. Yes bleeds arent important but vulnerability is. Thats a condition if you didnt know. And its not that easy making sure you have lots of stack of vuln on a boss at all times. Lastly dps is king you know why. Because ANET has made every boss a health sponge. This combat is really interesting and Anet did a good job they just did a bad job on bosses. If every boss was as interesting as lupi this game would be much better because doing hard bosses with a trinity is easy. With this combakittens not as easy because you have to take care of yourself WHILE working with a group

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

You obviously not doing any challenging content GW2 has to offer OP.

There has to be some first.

Deamhan.9538:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

You obviously not doing any challenging content GW2 has to offer OP.

There has to be some first.

solo lupi and get sub 6 min then say theres nothing challenging

Having no trinity sucks. I loved being the healer. In this game, healing is for suckers. The only reason I’m playing GW2 instead of a trinity game is because WoW is ughawfulterribadkillmenow and Rift is boring as hell with the gear progression being based on how many hours you can go into a PvP arena and lose ’till you get enough points for the gear you want..

Deamhan.9538:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

You obviously not doing any challenging content GW2 has to offer OP.

There has to be some first.

Well high level Fractals and Arah is the best we have, and Arah obviously is challenging since newbie groups get wasted there and stuck in path 4 for hours and hours against Simin.

Deamhan.9538:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

You obviously not doing any challenging content GW2 has to offer OP.

There has to be some first.

EHhh PvE……… AI is easily beaten no matter what the game is. Try Pvp. and if you think you are the best at that , then go pro and play in one of Anet’s tournaments.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

Deamhan.9538:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

You obviously not doing any challenging content GW2 has to offer OP.

There has to be some first.

EHhh PvE……… AI is easily beaten no matter what the game is. Try Pvp. and if you think you are the best at that , then go pro and play in one of Anet’s tournaments.

Or I can do what I already did. Go back into playing EVE. Get involved in the various forms of pvp in EVE and then come back and talk about pvp in GW2.

In theory, it is better. The game offers a ton of really interesting possibilities – combos, all the kinds of status effects and boons – for really subtle roles and interesting party interactions. But the thing is, the PVE content in the game is incredibly basic and doesn’t really require that you engage in any of that interesting interaction. For the most part, it barely requires that you think of what your party is doing at all.

Without the trinity and with the simplicity of enemy design, you really only have one PVE imperative – DPS. And while you can work together to get good DPS – for example, elementalists and engineers working their combo fields and blast finishers together to get lots of might and fury stacks – that just speeds things up. The game doesn’t require that you do them to win, and you can get very high DPS by just sticking four warriors in front of something and having them wail away.

It’s a shame really, because whenever I play a trinity game now I feel like, “Wow, this is dumb,” but GW2 just doesn’t capitalize on its possibilities.

Zindrix.1750:

Now that people have that playstyle(everybody DPS’s in a dungeon) is it really what you wanted?

No. It is not what I wanted. But now that Ive tried it I absolutely love it and I would not go back if you paid me to.

This game needs to get away from damage. Numbers are cool to watch but it gets stale when that’s all there is.

This game would’ve been so much better with a trinity. What people don’t understand is that a trinity actually takes strategy. For example: In WoW, I, as a tank, needed to mark the target I wanted to attack next and my party tried not to aggro mobs that were near that enemy. At the same time, the healer kept everyone’s health up while the dps positioned themselves so mobs that walked by did not attack us.

I can tell you right now that I used more strategy in WoW in 5 minutes doing a dungeon than I have in 3000 hours in GW2. I have never, ever been forced to resort to strategy to complete a task in GW2. Heck, I just defeated a “Legendary Champion” in Orr, (Which I didn’t even know existed), and it took 5 minutes with 6 people doing nothing but standing 10 feet away and dpsing their eyes out.

No, getting rid of the trinity just created more issues when it comes to picking certain builds. I rarely ever see a condition class, a support class, or anything else that isn’t berserker.

yes, it is much better.

everyone man for himself.

Anet has shown some steps at moving towards more difficult content that requires something other than dodge & deeps. Gauntlet, particularly Liadri, was one example. The aetherblade dungeon was another. I was away when the F&F dungeon was around, so I can’t speak for experience on that one.
They are revamping all world bosses, starting with Teq. Teq in particular requires some DPS, some cannon-users, and some people protecting the cannon-users (Ie, roles other than flat DPS).
They are adding 3 new fractals in the foreseeable future, hopefully at least one of which will be difficult and require something other than dodge&deeps.

Remember that this game is relatively new. In WoW’s early days, if you had a druid or paladin and weren’t healing, you were an idiot. There were massive balance issues and enormously exploitable mechanics. GW2 has some time to tone down on its own.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

yes, it is much better.

every man for himself.

This, too. If you were in a 5 man dungeon and your healer and tank both died, the three dps guys would jump into lava. I cant possibly count the amount of times when I finished a dungeon with 4 or 3 alive without problems. On rare occasions, I even killed a boss as last man standing. It really gives you the feeling of your character being the jack-of-all-trades that a good adventurer should be.

Never really played WoW , but my friends did. All the rage in nilla WoW was Tauren Shaman or something that just wouldn’t die Sylentir.

I really wish WoW would have stayed vanilla…… Still wouldn’t play it , but at least I would have more respect for it.

GW2 combat is simplistic for a variety of reasons, one of which is the lack of team roles. It’s irrelevant what those roles are, they could have removed healers and made cc classes act as a “preventative” play style that helped to keep teammates alive, or they could have brought back their “soft” trinity from gw1 (which was quite good for the most part). Any number of interesting things could have been done to give players a sense of performing a unique and needed role in teams. When it’s all said and done it didn’t happen. We have the formula: dmg > everything else. The game seems proud to announce that each player takes care of themselves and they don’t need to rely on their teammates. I play fps games when I want to do my own thing and not worry too much about my team, in an mmo I expect to be an integral component in a combined effort to win fights with diverse playstyles.

edit:
Another way that combat was simplified is the removal of two cost considerations: energy and movement. I think a lot of people are treating the ability to cast while moving as some kind of “revolution” in mmo combat, but I don’t agree. It is more fun to cast while moving, yes, but it removes a notable amount of challenge. When you remove too much challenge from a game, the experience starts to feel hollow. There are 3 costs associated with using skills traditionally: Energy/mana, cast time, and recharge time. Energy promotes careful thought about which skills are most useful for the remaining energy you have left. Cast time gives enemies a chance to interrupt you, and gives melee a chance to punish you for casting the wrong spell at the wrong time. Skill recharges make you think to the future if a particular skill might be needed soon. GW2 has removed 2 of these 3, and in so doing gives players very little reason to care what skills they use. If the skill has a short cooldown, then there is no reason not to use it at the first opportunity. If the skill has a long recharge time then there is usually great hesitation to ever use it. You don’t have to think about the speed of the enemy chasing you and how much distance is between you and make a judgment call on-the-fly whether or not you have time to cast that cc that will immobilize the enemy and whether that will actually gain you any ground. You just use it, because it costs you (almost) nothing.

Yeah, the problem is not so much the absence of the trinity as it is the absence of meaningful roles. If you think about it, humans organize by role for organized activities whether it is a scavenger hunt or brain surgery. This is a factor that a game would ignore akittens peril. What I see replacing meaningful roles here is a nameless, faceless zerg. Every man for himself really describes the berserker battlefield and is combat akittens most primitive. It isn’t particularly satisfying and I think that’s the negative that people are experiencing with combat in GW2. Don’t really know what the answer is, but meaningful roles of some kind would seem to be part of it.

you know the best part of gw2 combat. As a guardian i dont feel like i have to take a kitten ton of support to my group and lack in dps. I can bring support while still dpsing bosses about as well as a warrior. In gw1 i found monk to be a little boring and just for support while in gw2 guardians can do a lot more (well some not the imscarredofmonsterssoitakeamaceandshieldandhaveabillionblocksandheals)

Sylentir.8913:

Anet has shown some steps at moving towards more difficult content that requires something other than dodge & deeps. Gauntlet, particularly Liadri, was one example. The aetherblade dungeon was another. I was away when the F&F dungeon was around, so I can’t speak for experience on that one.
They are revamping all world bosses, starting with Teq. Teq in particular requires some DPS, some cannon-users, and some people protecting the cannon-users (Ie, roles other than flat DPS).
They are adding 3 new fractals in the foreseeable future, hopefully at least one of which will be difficult and require something other than dodge&deeps.

Remember that this game is relatively new. In WoW’s early days, if you had a druid or paladin and weren’t healing, you were an idiot. There were massive balance issues and enormously exploitable mechanics. GW2 has some time to tone down on its own.

Let me help you out there. “if you had a druid or paladin and weren’t healing, you were considered an idiot”. I played a pally tank and a Druid tank/dps in the beginning stages of WoW’s early life and I can honestly say that I was better than most people that were actually specced for it.

Let me help you out again. “There were small balance issues that were fixed almost immediately and there were almost no exploitable mechanics”. I really don’t understand your sentence there at all, because the classes were pretty well balanced, (Moreso than in GW2 at least), and please enlighten me to the exploitable mechanics you’re talking about. Because I played WoW for years upon years and haven’t experienced a single exploited mechanic. Even so, the “exploited mechanic” you’re talking about couldn’t be nearly as bad as champ farming is now.

WoW was pretty near its peak amazingness akittens 1-year mark, but I feel like Guild Wars 2 is trying to crawl its way back up the popularity ladder by adding ascended gear and raids.

But there are meaningful roles.

To offer you basic examples. You can have mesmers providing mob pulls and quickness, warriors providing banners, guardians putting up projectile reflects, engineers stacking vulnerability.

And you can do all of this while playing DPS.

Even in WvW you have players with roles even if they tend to be grouped in to them most of the time.

It’s a win/win.

colesy.8490:

But there are meaningful roles.

To offer you basic examples. You can have mesmers providing mob pulls and quickness, warriors providing banners, guardians putting up projectile reflects, engineers stacking vulnerability.

And you can do all of this while playing DPS.

Even in WvW you have players with roles even if they tend to be grouped in to them most of the time.

It’s a win/win.

With the exception of the reflects, none of those are examples of unique roles. They are just different ways to do damage.

Games with a trinity have players setting things up so people can do more damage. It’s exactly the same here.

Just because ANet doesn’t want people to just be healbots that fall asleep until a red bar falls too low or the tank to fall asleep until the boss gets bored doesn’t mean that they should change what is currently a great combat system.

The thing I find frustrating about GW2 group content is that in organised groups, it’s trivially easy and involves almost no skill. You can build your way to zerker builds which break content to the point where you stand there and DPS until it’s dead with no dodging or engagement of the content at all. In WoW, even the easiest group content involved specific roles and some degree of engagement. ArenaNet have done a far worse job of balancing their content so that players can’t just break it through build wars. Without engaging players through traditional trinity gameplay, ArenaNet pushed themselves to enforce other mechanics to replace it (like the jellyfish, ghost eater or dredge fractal boss). Too bad most of that content is being broken by the DPS race (like groups defeating the destroyer boss in CoE in a single phase, avoiding any need to use the actual mechanics of the encounter).

Most content doesn’t even’t need class pull skills because line of sight AI exploitation is far more effective.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

Deamhan.9538:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

You obviously not doing any challenging content GW2 has to offer OP.

There has to be some first.

EHhh PvE……… AI is easily beaten no matter what the game is. Try Pvp. and if you think you are the best at that , then go pro and play in one of Anet’s tournaments.

AI is not easily beaten no matter what the game is but, is expensive. Not to mention people like to win and gw2 caters to that.

Spvp has a very fluid combat system with a lot of potential. A lot of it’s problems can be summed up from watching Helseth’s rant of the week.

The trinity has nothing to do with it.

Dodge is great, it’s failure is in making it rely on endurance. Take off restrictions on using it and have more reasons to dodge. Make fights more interactive. Rather than “Oh I dodged two red circles, now I face tank until I can dodge again.”

milo.6942:

colesy.8490:

But there are meaningful roles.

To offer you basic examples. You can have mesmers providing mob pulls and quickness, warriors providing banners, guardians putting up projectile reflects, engineers stacking vulnerability.

And you can do all of this while playing DPS.

Even in WvW you have players with roles even if they tend to be grouped in to them most of the time.

It’s a win/win.

With the exception of the reflects, none of those are examples of unique roles. They are just different ways to do damage.

Yep, there is healing but it is not meaningful in terms of fulfilling a role. There is support but it is not meaningful in terms of fulfilling a role. There is DPS and it is meaningful—we have that one nailed.

For those who dismiss the importance of roles, consider any human group activity that is organized around achieving a goal. How many can you name that are not role-based. Previously I named a scavenger hunt and brain surgery as examples of role-based activity. I could go on for pages naming examples of role-based behavior in human groups (sports teams, programming teams, accounting departments, the list is endless). How many examples can you come up with where people come together to achieve and objective and everyone just goes for it. (I mean besides GW2 combat.)