Guild Wars 2

I see a lot of threads (many of which I participate in) where players complain about RNG, especially when it comes to things like precursors. Then there is the RNG of the BL chests. And the RNG of things like “regular” exotic drops, etc.

There are many, many complaints. Yet ANet continues with the system and seems to lock more and more stuff behind RNG.

So, are there players that actually like the fact that most of the cool stuff in the game is locked behind RNG? Do you find it much more satifsying when (IF) you finally get a cool drop? Or would you be happier if you could earn or craft cool items, or important items like precursors? Do you think it’s more “special” one way or the other? If you prefer to be able to obtain stuff in a different way, what way(s) would that be? I.E. black lion keys or the contents of what’s in a BL chest, precursors, new armors, etc.

Discuss!

“locked behind RNG”

It’s not. You want a guaranteed way? Go buy it from the TP.

RNG is not fun. Getting something cool you didn’t expect that’s very rare is fun.

One of the things I liked about Guild Wars 1 was there was always a chance to get a black dye and in hard mode and eye of the north, always a small chance to get a lockpick. No matter how many hours I played, I loved getting stuff like that.

There’s not quite enough stuff like that in Guild Wars 2. But that means when I do get something cool, it’s more exciting because it’s something I don’t usually get. Like a black lion key drop (which I’ve gotten 3 times).

RNG sucks if you never get anything. It’s okay if you get cool stuff occasionally. This game needs more stuff like that.

Yes it is but its the type of fun that make you feel as if you got something that not too many others have. Humans put value on how rare something is take for example rare gems that have no use other then they look nice. A lot of things simply look nice but if we see them all the time they do not mean that much to a human but if you do not see it often it becomes more rewarding to see it.

Its a human thing and ppl forget it the sec they have what they want or want something they cant get.

Depends on how it’s implemented, methinks.

RNG which gates progress (precursor, kill 40 boars to get 10 livers ect) I wouldn’t consider fun.

RNG as an unexpected suprise though (you killed a plant and recieved a unique skin with some flavour text)? Or RNG with a guaranteed progression method attached? I’d say in the fun is dependant on the content then.

Vol.7601:

“locked behind RNG”

It’s not. You want a guaranteed way? Go buy it from the TP.

^^ That’s one of the things I love about this game, they opened up the TP for most items so in the end not much is restricted to RNG

The exceptions being Fractal skins and Teq skins off the top of my head, might be some others.

Jski.6180:

Yes it is but its the type of fun that make you feel as if you got something that not too many others have. Humans put value on how rare something is take for example rare gems that have no use other then they look nice. A lot of things simply look nice but if we see them all the time they do not mean that much to a human but if you do not see it often it becomes more rewarding to see it.

Its a human thing and ppl forget it the sec they have what they want or want something they cant get.

This is nonsense – skins are just cosmetic and carry no game “cred” whatsover – simply how lucky one is. It caters only to the player’s personal aesthetics and nothing else. For example I do not consider the legendary greatswords to be good looking and do not fit the motifs of any of my characters at all, hence I will make no effort to acquire them. If I was lucky enough to get the precursors for them, I would put them up on the TP so that I may choose a precursor that I desire instead.

By locking certain skins such as Teq weapons behind non tradeable account bound RNG, you are simply restricting players from completing their characters’ “look”. Same thing goes for limited time Gem store skins – players may want a particular skin at a particular time. As time goes by, they may forget they want the skin in the first place.

Khal Drogo.9631:

Jski.6180:

Yes it is but its the type of fun that make you feel as if you got something that not too many others have. Humans put value on how rare something is take for example rare gems that have no use other then they look nice. A lot of things simply look nice but if we see them all the time they do not mean that much to a human but if you do not see it often it becomes more rewarding to see it.

Its a human thing and ppl forget it the sec they have what they want or want something they cant get.

This is nonsense – skins are just cosmetic and carry no game “cred” whatsover – simply how lucky one is. It caters only to the player’s personal aesthetics and nothing else. For example I do not consider the legendary greatswords to be good looking and do not fit the motifs of any of my characters at all, hence I will make no effort to acquire them. If I was lucky enough to get the precursors for them, I would put them up on the TP so that I may choose a precursor that I desire instead.

By locking certain skins such as Teq weapons behind non tradeable account bound RNG, you are simply restricting players from completing their characters’ “look”. Same thing goes for limited time Gem store skins – players may want a particular skin at a particular time. As time goes by, they may forget they want the skin in the first place.

And if every one had one or the RNG was very high % to drop then they would be worth next to nothing and getting one would not be a big deal. I understand the “chose how you look point of view” i am just talking about how RNG give items objects more valuable then an easier to get this is a type of fun for ppl.

So is it fair or fun if you do Teq 1000 times and get nothing while your friend or guildie does it 20 times and get 3 skins? Are you all ok with that as in “whatever, that’s how the dice roll, I’m still loving this game!!” Or does it make you want to walk away in disgust?

Your gear progression is not “locked behind RNG”. You can get your gear just by spending dungeon tokens. What’s locked behind RNG is just the ultra rare stuff like percursors and skins. I’m not bothered by it because I know it takes a while and you’re not supposed to get a new legendary every month. It’s a long process.

I actualy wish there were more interesting things you could get from monster drops.
So far I’ve only got a few exotics that I just end up selling or salvaging for the skins. Sure, you can get ascended drops from monsters but it’s so rare that it’s a lot easier to just craft your ascended set.

I thought RNG was RNG. When did FUN get into the act?

Seriously, NOTHING in this game is “locked behind RNG” in terms of you not being able to access some part of the game without it. All RNG items are 100% optional items that are NOT required to progress.

I think this guy (Gaix2) explained one way of looking at it fairly well, good vs bad rng.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1579a2/good_rng_vs_bad_rng/

I think many of you are misunderstanding my question. I’m not saying you can’t also buy stuff. But does that make it fun? Someone gets lucky and can make 2000g and play whatever they like but you have to grind out gold for that skin you want. Is that fun? Would you rather keep it as is or would you prefer to be able to earn or craft special items, without it be random where some person gets 5 of something and you get none?

Take a precursor as an example. Sure you can grind 1000g and buy it. But is that fun? Do you think this is a good system? Or how about one of those BL weapon skins? Want to farm 1000g to buy BL keys to hopefully get enough scaps together to get one skin? Or would you rather be able to complete x, y, z events and have it rewarded at the end (rather than minis or yet another backpiece skin)? Would you rather be able to craft stuff or are you perfectly happy grinding out gold to buy it from “that lucky account person”? And let’s be real. No one needs any of this stuff, but this is a game based on looks, no?

Is the current system FUN or no?

Simply put, yes, there are a LOT of people in this world who like the “gamble” aspect of RNG.

I do approve of much of that Gaix2 said about “good RNG” vs “bad RNG” though, even though the difference really in most cases is more psychological… it’s still a significant distinction.

ozmaniandevil.6805:

So is it fair or fun if you do Teq 1000 times and get nothing while your friend or guildie does it 20 times and get 3 skins? Are you all ok with that as in “whatever, that’s how the dice roll, I’m still loving this game!!” Or does it make you want to walk away in disgust?

This goes back to when people played Dungeons and Dragons around the dinner table. The element or randomness is necessary to keep the game from getting boring – if you can’t fail the mission, if every monster you kill gives you a better weapon, then the game becomes predictable and boring.

They called those games “Monty Haul” after the game show host. Players are showered with greater and greater treasures every session, until every player has a stack of magical weapons and bags full of gold and jewels. Eventually it becomes impossible to challenge the players because they can buy or fight their way out of any situation.

Many video games end up like this. In the beginning every combat is exciting, life-or-death decisions made by instinct. You have to choose whether to upgrade you equipment or buy healing potions to survive the next few combats. After a while though, you toss aside magical weapons because they are less than what you already have and carry enough coin to buy a small country.

In an MMO, those who spend a long time playing the game and/or “grind” more efficiently than others end up with an awful lot of money. Increasing rewards to bring the average player to their level just means that these individuals will have 10x as much a week later. Short of deleting everyone’s characters and bank stockpiles and forcing all players to begin the game again, there is no easy answer to this kind of situation.

The real question is whether there is an alternative that is better than the current system. The answer is no – without completely reconfiguring the game there is no system that would work better than what is already in place. There are small tweaks that can, have and currently are being made, but demanding sweeping changes to the system is futile, what you’re asking for will destroy the game in the long run, and only make the imbalance between casual players and grinders even bigger in the short run.

I guess I’m jaded from Warcraft because that game is FULL of RNG and, while frustrating, I never outright hated it. Sure, when you have two people farming for that super rare mount drop off of the Lich King and the first person gets it twice in two weeks, which is annoying. Meanwhile the second person has been farming the horse reigns for 6 months every week since that content release and hasn’t seen one drop. But the thing is, the mount is optional.

Do I want the mount? Yes. Do I need the mount? No. Farming the mount keeps me playing longer, which means more chance for revenue. I think ANet has the same mindset. The longer you play, the more chance you’ll be tempted by something in the gem shop or see something someone else has from the shop and get that spending itch.

Overall, I don’t blame ANet as a company trying to make money in a sub free game. RNG certainly sucks, but after all those weeks farming, when you finally get that drop, you get that tingly feeling of accomplishment.

I’m of two minds when it comes to RNG.

RNG “in game” is a fairly necessary evil in order to keep people invested, chasing that “one thing” they don’t have. Having everything a “guarantee” after X amount of hours kinda turns it into work rather than something spontaneous.

RNG in terms of “store” items is effectively gambling, and I have no taste for it. But I also know a ton of people do (casinos and state lotteries are some of the biggest money makers in the U.S.), so the only thing I can do is shake my head and not support it.

bird.5920:

I guess I’m jaded from Warcraft because that game is FULL of RNG and, while frustrating, I never outright hated it. Sure, when you have two people farming for that super rare mount drop off of the Lich King and the first person gets it twice in two weeks, which is annoying. Meanwhile the second person has been farming the horse reigns for 6 months every week since that content release and hasn’t seen one drop. But the thing is, the mount is optional.

Do I want the mount? Yes. Do I need the mount? No. Farming the mount keeps me playing longer, which means more chance for revenue. I think ANet has the same mindset. The longer you play, the more chance you’ll be tempted by something in the gem shop or see something someone else has from the shop and get that spending itch.

Overall, I don’t blame ANet as a company trying to make money in a sub free game. RNG certainly sucks, but after all those weeks farming, when you finally get that drop, you get that tingly feeling of accomplishment.

Ok, so players farm for rare drops and get jealous when someone else gets them. How is this any different from GW2? Really, honest question I don’t see the difference.

A major consideration is the fact that the TP is global rather than server specific. When you buy and sell only within a single server, it’s a lot easier to manipulate the availability of an item and make a lot of money. With a global TP you face far more competition and thus it’s easier for a buyer to find what he wants and at a lower price. But this also means that a precursor that drops on Server A can easily make its way to server B, C or D. So the devs have to look at the game environment as a whole rather than just being concerned about the drop rates of rare items per server.

This is actually an improvement to the system, unless you want to manipulate the market to your advantage.

chemiclord.3978:

I’m of two minds when it comes to RNG.

RNG “in game” is a fairly necessary evil in order to keep people invested, chasing that “one thing” they don’t have. Having everything a “guarantee” after X amount of hours kinda turns it into work rather than something spontaneous.

RNG in terms of “store” items is effectively gambling, and I have no taste for it. But I also know a ton of people do (casinos and state lotteries are some of the biggest money makers in the U.S.), so the only thing I can do is shake my head and not support it.

I am pretty much like this. I enjoy the in-game RNG where you have the potential to get something cool from a drop, box, or whatever. Whether I am “farming” it or just get it by surprise, it is nice. But, like Chem, I don’t enjoy the “gambling” and so my risk is limited strictly to my time and effort.

Nope

Vayne.8563:

RNG is not fun. Getting something cool you didn’t expect that’s very rare is fun.

One of the things I liked about Guild Wars 1 was there was always a chance to get a black dye and in hard mode and eye of the north, always a small chance to get a lockpick. No matter how many hours I played, I loved getting stuff like that.

There’s not quite enough stuff like that in Guild Wars 2. But that means when I do get something cool, it’s more exciting because it’s something I don’t usually get. Like a black lion key drop (which I’ve gotten 3 times).

RNG sucks if you never get anything. It’s okay if you get cool stuff occasionally. This game needs more stuff like that.

I very much share Vayne’s opinion. What makes RNG work are the times when you get something and go, “Nice!” In GW2, my character may say something like that, but way too often, I’m not. There’s a sweet spot for desirable drops, and GW2 is below that with its RNG, at least as it applies to me.

Nope, could explain why but…

With a 30 page thread with the pretention of asking for feedback on traits. Why bother?

RNG…
Righteous Negativism Generator
Rude Nature Generator
Really Nothing Giver
Real Natural Gambler
Random Nonsense Genesis
…and I should continue over and over and over like this kind of posts will come and leave.NRG-Nerd Rage Generator but nothing will change and with every new Living content patch notes I am more disappointed by this game.

only if you win

ScribeTheMad.7614:

I think this guy (Gaix2) explained one way of looking at it fairly well, good vs bad rng.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1579a2/good_rng_vs_bad_rng/

Excellent read, thank you for linking.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I very much share Vayne’s opinion. What makes RNG work are the times when you get something and go, “Nice!” In GW2, my character may say something like that, but way too often, I’m not. There’s a sweet spot for desirable drops, and GW2 is below that with its RNG, at least as it applies to me.

I think this is how I feel. I would love that “omg!!!! sweeeeeet!!!!” feeling. Once.

I blame the DMG (Dungeon Master’s Guide) loot tables. That method has been used in computer games since the first Gold Box RPGs. Scale up to thousands of items the chance of getting the “one” you want is shocking slim and even after thousands upon thousands of rolls, stats say the chance is still fairly slim for an individual. Across the entire game population those items drop daily. Just not you. And that’s one reason for the TP, to acquire it from some lucky sole who doesn’t want it however it’s price is dictated by the number of players like you who do want it.

ozmaniandevil.6805:

So is it fair or fun if you do Teq 1000 times and get nothing while your friend or guildie does it 20 times and get 3 skins? Are you all ok with that as in “whatever, that’s how the dice roll, I’m still loving this game!!” Or does it make you want to walk away in disgust?

Doesn’t bother me.

But then I also enjoy Teq.

Ashen.2907:

ScribeTheMad.7614:

I think this guy (Gaix2) explained one way of looking at it fairly well, good vs bad rng.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1579a2/good_rng_vs_bad_rng/

Excellent read, thank you for linking.

That was a good read. Throw in the rewards in GW2 that are not RNG based and you have a very unexciting reward system. The feeling associated with taking step 17 of 100 to getting what you want is very similar to that experienced by someone who has reached the end of Monday, with Friday in the distant future.

Yes, it’s fun. I like RNG. Getting something truly rare is a real treat. I don’t ever want precursors to become some sort of ’Everyone’s a Winner Just for Participating’ trophy. Nope nope.

MrContrary.1264:

Yes, it’s fun. I like RNG. Getting something truly rare is a real treat. I don’t ever want precursors to become some sort of ’Everyone’s a Winner Just for Participating’ trophy. Nope nope.

I don’t believe a precursor should be EASY to obtain either. I never said that you should get anything just for showing up.

I don’t understand what you want then. There already exists a hard, reliable way to get a legendary in this game, via the TC. Do you want a system that’s more rewarding than RNG and less expensive than TC prices?

Should precursors drop twice as much? Five times? Say every player on GW2 actively participated all gainful content, 40 hours a week, for six months. What percentage of those players should see a precursor drop by the end of that time for it to be deemed ‘fun’?

tolunart.2095:

The real question is whether there is an alternative that is better than the current system. The answer is no – without completely reconfiguring the game there is no system that would work better than what is already in place. There are small tweaks that can, have and currently are being made, but demanding sweeping changes to the system is futile, what you’re asking for will destroy the game in the long run, and only make the imbalance between casual players and grinders even bigger in the short run.

Actually, the PvP reward track is a nice example of a system already in place that incorporates RNG without ignoring effort. You can still get lucky with a precursor or ascended box drop, but there is fixed reward at the end you can work toward.

Alternatively ANet can just make a repeatable achievement with a reward box at the end, just like the repeatable activities achievements (Southsun Survival Regular, Belcher’s Bluff Regular, etc.); have one for each world boss and repeatable content (like Queen’s Gauntlet) where you are guaranteed a hoard after killing Teq a hundred times (that’s still over three months of effort if you do once a day, every day) or a Chaos of Lyssa after repeating the Gauntlet a thousand times.