Guild Wars 2

Godzzila.3752:

Nerelith.7360:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I think you are missing the point of core cooperation rather than competitiveness. It is more ‘social’ to cooperate or, at least, not have to compete to get mats from nodes, or XP and drops from mobs. It fosters a friendlier environment, where you may make a friend, rather than an enemy because no one is irritated that you ‘stole’ his/her kill or material or whatever.

That’s all. Geez!

OT – I enjoy what this game offers, and I don’t feel the need for any of the OP’s proposed ‘endgame’. There are, of course, things I would like added to the game, but I’m sure most would not consider them their definition of ‘endgame’.

I have to agree. I find that this game is more social, because In other games I have played (cough) WoW ( cough)…if someone is fighting something and dieing, and I jump in to help, there have been times I got yelled at.

Here, I can Jump in and help, and people actually thank me.

rly? did you even bother to read my explanation of why comparing this game to WoW doesn’t make this game “social”?

Cooperative, MAYBE (even tho that’s arguable), but by far NOT-social.

So why is it easier for me to be social in this game than that game?

Godzzila.3752:

Nerelith.7360:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I think you are missing the point of core cooperation rather than competitiveness. It is more ‘social’ to cooperate or, at least, not have to compete to get mats from nodes, or XP and drops from mobs. It fosters a friendlier environment, where you may make a friend, rather than an enemy because no one is irritated that you ‘stole’ his/her kill or material or whatever.

That’s all. Geez!

OT – I enjoy what this game offers, and I don’t feel the need for any of the OP’s proposed ‘endgame’. There are, of course, things I would like added to the game, but I’m sure most would not consider them their definition of ‘endgame’.

I have to agree. I find that this game is more social, because In other games I have played (cough) WoW ( cough)…if someone is fighting something and dieing, and I jump in to help, there have been times I got yelled at.

Here, I can Jump in and help, and people actually thank me.

rly? did you even bother to read my explanation of why comparing this game to WoW doesn’t make this game “social”?

Cooperative, MAYBE (even tho that’s arguable), but by far NOT-social.

I would not be surprised if people had lost the will to spin the old wheel of your posts by now, this being me just saying, but it seems as if both them and this thread just spinned in a never ending loophole.

One person’s definition of ‘social’ may not be the same as another’s definition. If the explanation does not fit your definition, feel free to disregard anything that doesn’t support your views. =)

Vayne.8563:

Godzzila.3752:

Nerelith.7360:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I think you are missing the point of core cooperation rather than competitiveness. It is more ‘social’ to cooperate or, at least, not have to compete to get mats from nodes, or XP and drops from mobs. It fosters a friendlier environment, where you may make a friend, rather than an enemy because no one is irritated that you ‘stole’ his/her kill or material or whatever.

That’s all. Geez!

OT – I enjoy what this game offers, and I don’t feel the need for any of the OP’s proposed ‘endgame’. There are, of course, things I would like added to the game, but I’m sure most would not consider them their definition of ‘endgame’.

I have to agree. I find that this game is more social, because In other games I have played (cough) WoW ( cough)…if someone is fighting something and dieing, and I jump in to help, there have been times I got yelled at.

Here, I can Jump in and help, and people actually thank me.

rly? did you even bother to read my explanation of why comparing this game to WoW doesn’t make this game “social”?

Cooperative, MAYBE (even tho that’s arguable), but by far NOT-social.

So why is it easier for me to be social in this game than that game?

???
What?

Easier to be “social”? I find the “difficulty to be social” in GW2 to be exactly the same as it was in games such as: Shaiya, Runescape, Aion, Rift, in fact, every MMO i played…
This is something personal, there is no such thing as being “easier to be social” in certain games!

Really, of all the kittenopics discussed so far in this topic, I find this one about GW2 Being Social to be the most bullshi* one, honestly, this game was never advertised as a social game and was never focused to be so.

So if you really want “social games” here is a few:
-Habbo Hotel
-Neopets
-Pinguin Club
-Second Life
-Free Realms

But honestly, this games is NOT social, it has the same degree of social-ness as any other mmo.

Godzzila.3752:

Vayne.8563:

Godzzila.3752:

Nerelith.7360:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I think you are missing the point of core cooperation rather than competitiveness. It is more ‘social’ to cooperate or, at least, not have to compete to get mats from nodes, or XP and drops from mobs. It fosters a friendlier environment, where you may make a friend, rather than an enemy because no one is irritated that you ‘stole’ his/her kill or material or whatever.

That’s all. Geez!

OT – I enjoy what this game offers, and I don’t feel the need for any of the OP’s proposed ‘endgame’. There are, of course, things I would like added to the game, but I’m sure most would not consider them their definition of ‘endgame’.

I have to agree. I find that this game is more social, because In other games I have played (cough) WoW ( cough)…if someone is fighting something and dieing, and I jump in to help, there have been times I got yelled at.

Here, I can Jump in and help, and people actually thank me.

rly? did you even bother to read my explanation of why comparing this game to WoW doesn’t make this game “social”?

Cooperative, MAYBE (even tho that’s arguable), but by far NOT-social.

So why is it easier for me to be social in this game than that game?

???
What?

Easier to be “social”? I find the “difficulty to be social” in GW2 to be exactly the same as it was in games such as: Shaiya, Runescape, Aion, Rift, in fact, every MMO i played…
This is something personal, there is no such thing as being “easier to be social” in certain games!

Really, of all the kittenopics discussed so far in this topic, I find this one about GW2 Being Social to be the most bullshi* one, honestly, this game was never advertised as a social game and was never focused to be so.

Actually, it’s easier to be social for most people around friendly people. Games do train people how to react to other people. You’re obviously one of the people that have a different idea of what social means than some of us. That doesn’t make us wrong.

And it STILL ties in to the type of end game.

Vayne.8563:

I think that the conversation about how social this game is is directly linked to the topic in the OP.

The end game ties into everything else. It’s part of the over all game design. The more competitive the end game, the more attractive this game becomes to players who don’t fit in with the over all vision the company had for the game. They wanted a welcoming, friendly cooperative PvE.

The more difficult the content, the more people will insist on bringing X profession and Y build. This was the sorts of problems that were endemic to Guild War 1. It wasn’t just groups you wanted. It was an imbagon Paragon. An r8 ursan. A 600 monk. An iway or whatever was the flavor of the month to run the Underworld or VS farming.

This game is made to play any profession you want and for most of the game you can. I still don’t think I’d like to try Duncan Black in Slaver’s Exile in Guild Wars 1 without the swap skill.

The end game sets the pace and tone of the game. Any end game in this game would have to be added very very carefully.

Valid points.

So the question becomes, what end game elements can they incorporate without compromising that original premise of keeping things friendly?

I agree that, if you look at it from that perspective (which I do – it is what made me start playing GW2 in the first place), I would rather they expend their energy/resources toward developing more of what they have already produced rather than trying to bring in new elements like raids or more contentious content.

So, for me, endgame is a combination of living story, open world fun (I LOVE dry top), dungeons/fractals, guild missions, world bosses, wvw and pvp (and minigames).

The issue becomes stagnation. While repeating old content can be fun, it cannot carry the game alone. It is new content (even if it is the same categories of content Ive listed above) that keeps us logging in.

So far this season, we’ve seen some really good new living story and open world fun. As the season progresses and we see more of the other types added (missions, dungeons, bosses, pvp and wvw), there will be more reason for different types of players to log in.

That, to me, is what engame is about – a reason to log in and play.

The one exception I make to this is character progression. Im still very anxious to see the new trait/skill system they mentioned a few months ago implemented more aggressively into the game. If I could poke one hole in endgame, it would be a lack of character progression (not talking about stat grind – talking about the trait/skill system the devs unveiled a while back).

Godzzila.3752:

Nerelith.7360:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I think you are missing the point of core cooperation rather than competitiveness. It is more ‘social’ to cooperate or, at least, not have to compete to get mats from nodes, or XP and drops from mobs. It fosters a friendlier environment, where you may make a friend, rather than an enemy because no one is irritated that you ‘stole’ his/her kill or material or whatever.

That’s all. Geez!

OT – I enjoy what this game offers, and I don’t feel the need for any of the OP’s proposed ‘endgame’. There are, of course, things I would like added to the game, but I’m sure most would not consider them their definition of ‘endgame’.

I have to agree. I find that this game is more social, because In other games I have played (cough) WoW ( cough)…if someone is fighting something and dieing, and I jump in to help, there have been times I got yelled at.

Here, I can Jump in and help, and people actually thank me.

rly? did you even bother to read my explanation of why comparing this game to WoW doesn’t make this game “social”?

Cooperative, MAYBE (even tho that’s arguable), but by far NOT-social.

\

You keep comparing this game to wow, maybe you’d be happier playing wow, rather than trying to turn Gw2 into WoW?

WoW is less social than Gw2. It’s community can be extremely toxic at times.

" is this Barrens chat?" How many here understand the reference?

Enforced Grouping does not make a game social, it just forces people to play with others that if given the choice they might prefer to not play with at all.

Gw2 in My opinion is better, because grouping is 100 % totally optional.
You do not have to group, to benefit someone nearby.

The issue as I see it is… lazy thinking. Many players have gotten used to looking at an MMO and saying " an mmo has this… an mmo has that… and the other.." then gw2 comes along tosses some of those pre-conceptions out the window.

Now there are players that refuse to adapt. They want this MMO to look Like traditonal MMO’s. Maybe it’s best for them to go play one of those traditional MMO’s and leave our GW2 alone?

An end game that would work for me, is to make a really hard mode story version, using the stories they have already in the journal but ramping it up and providing titles or cosmetic stuff for people that can get through it. Sort of like a tribulation mode in SAB but for the Living Story. Make it so failure is the default state and you really have to figure out how to spec perfectly to succeed.

Endgame, for me, would be things (lots of them) like the Black Moa Chick quest. Or bringing back Nick’s descendant. Lol. But, see? I’m not into the whole ‘raiding’-type of content, so I’m sure I’m in a sad minority.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Endgame, for me, would be things (lots of them) like the Black Moa Chick quest. Or bringing back Nick’s descendant. Lol. But, see? I’m not into the whole ‘raiding’-type of content, so I’m sure I’m in a sad minority.

I’m right there with you.

Vayne.8563:

Nerelith.7360:

Amere.9607:

stupid thread.

is there an endgame? no.
are we, as community going to create a discussion and extract points from that? no, we just going to whine, and blame each other for stuff.
can we, as community do something? nope, we are to busy arguing with vayne at forums, because, uknow, that’s how things work

lots of kittening, very little sence. thats kinda ok theese times?

I’m not arguing with Vayne, I think he makes sense. I used to argue with Vayne, until I stopped myself from responding one day, and actually listened to what he had to say.

I barely know how to respond to this. lol

I had to give you props. I felt that when someone says " we all argue with Vayne." it’s Just an example of Argumentum ad populum.

For me any time someone needs to find a group to agree with his or her positions, it’s a sign of lack of confidence in their argument. A sign they fear that it cannot stand On it’s own.

Oh don’t get me wrong, you still say things i don’t agree with, but of late…i find I agree with more than I disagree with.

On Topic. Depending on how you look at it, either Gw2 has no endgame, or the entire game is endgame.

There are those to whom this game appeals, and those to whom it doesn’t.

As much as I can understand the desire of players to want to make this into a game they like, it IS selff-centered, self-absorbed, egotistical, and arrogant.

A lot of what I hear is.." if we leave you’ll be sorry." Nonsense.

This game is what it is. Players need to learn to like it for what it is. Or find something else to play.

Yay! A whole two of us! ; )

KarlaGrey.5903:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Feather farming, was that the one where you load up a ranger with a ton of traps and pretty much auto-kill tengu in Shing Jea? I tried that, it bored me to tears . . . was pretty profitable too when 10 Feathers would get you something like 390 Gold.

And there was farming for other stuff too, mostly for Nick gift trophies for the people who didn’t want to bother or who got desperate by the end of the week. I knew at least one person who did that – I bought from them a few times because I ran out of time to farm them up.

Also, I still don’t get why people want to revel nostalgic in the awesome endgame of GW1. About the best thing I can say about it was . . . you didn’t need to do it for top tier gear or anything like that. You weren’t going to be penalized by not being as effective as the other person because you didn’t run Underworld until your 2 key stopped working. The only thing which you got was pretty (and that’s debatable) weapons which, push come to shove, you could acquire without ever setting foot in there.

The ways to ‘farm’ things on GW were nigh infinite – you could opt for a plethora of different ways to farm, depending on personal preference (pvp or pve) and profitability (common material stacks vs rare material in high-end areas).

What do you have in GW2? Champ trains? Repeatable events? Fractals? Run around mining nodes? Crafting? Pvp? (rite) afaik the high-end areas are horrendously under-rewarding, while the rest boils down to a war against boredom. Judging from many replies I’ve read here, the entire game actually boils down to ‘Wars against Boredom’, unless you can ‘create your own challenges’ (!) with the help of self-imposed handicaps, which is frankly giving me the chuckles. Anything can be ‘endgame’ form that point of view, even walking through a desert – walk only on one leg and only have one bottle of water with you, gl hf.
#thechallengeiswithinyou

It honestly seems the ppl who are the happiest with this shadow of a game are the types that just wanted an elaborated version of Hello Kitty Online Adventures, devoid of any kind of real competition and challenge (innate, not self-created).
What I also notice a lot is this odd inferiority complex – if someone is wearing cool looking/expensive gear, why the need to hate on it or be bothered by it, or even say ‘ooh but me no care’?
The only problem is when good(-looking) gear and weapons are attainable in ways other than directly from the encounter in question. Prestige in and off itself is not something you should be opposed to (live and let live), gear grind on the other hand…and lack of meaningful team play outside pvp (and even there, it’s questionable), lack of a pve that won’t be just spank and tan- …dodge. A pve that will actually give a feeling you ‘matter’, and that you’re not just another drone in a zerg, or one that gets zerged.

This post sums everything up. Everything about this game is well explained by this post and the following Karla posts.
At this point this topic just turned into an infinite loop of searching for possible arguments to extend this discussion. Everything that had to be said has been said. At this point is just another fanboys vs haters discussion with little to no-point to it.
So I’m just abandoning this discussion, everything I wanted to say has been said, only thing being done is points being recycled over and over again.
As of the last year (and based on Glass Door reviews) Anet has been going downhill with more and more unsatisfied workers, and this is reflecting on the game also going downhill with barely any content to support it.
That being said I’m abandoning this discussion, since I’m not backing off and for I don’t expect the opposite side to back off. This game seems to be cursed to forever be in this loop where 50% wants something, the other 50% doesn’t, also the fact that every post seems to be ignored by Anet doesn’t help.

Vayne.8563:

An end game that would work for me, is to make a really hard mode story version, using the stories they have already in the journal but ramping it up and providing titles or cosmetic stuff for people that can get through it. Sort of like a tribulation mode in SAB but for the Living Story. Make it so failure is the default state and you really have to figure out how to spec perfectly to succeed.

I would definitely support this idea. There would need to be some kind of ongoing reward system in place for the story instances (both the regular and the hardcore) to make it viable. This wouldn’t have to be much – something as simple as champ loot bags would be enough for many.

One thing I think would be cool (and fit well in the game) would be to implement Season Armor/Weapon Sets – unlocked with tokens from repeating living story steps (gated daily just like dungeons – small number of tokens for completing on regular mode and about twice that many for completing on). Basically introduce 1-2 armor/weapon pieces with each episode until full sets are out.

Godzzila.3752:

This post sums everything up. Everything about this game is well explained by this post and the following Karla posts.
At this point this topic just turned into an infinite loop of searching for possible arguments to extend this discussion. Everything that had to be said has been said. At this point is just another fanboys vs haters discussion with little to no-point to it.
So I’m just abandoning this discussion, everything I wanted to say has been said, only thing being done is points being recycled over and over again.
As of the last year (and based on Glass Door reviews) Anet has been going downhill with more and more unsatisfied workers, and this is reflecting on the game also going downhill with barely any content to support it.
That being said I’m abandoning this discussion, since I’m not backing off and for I don’t expect the opposite side to back off. This game seems to be cursed to forever be in this loop where 50% wants something, the other 50% doesn’t, also the fact that every post seems to be ignored by Anet doesn’t help.

Agreeing to disagree is always a good thing when someone realizes that positions are entrenched.

I do have to quibble about a couple of things. fanboy vs haters is a bit… offensive, especially when there are people on BOTH sides that were trying to have a reasoned discourse. I would Not call anyone either a fanboy or a hater. it assumes too much, and all it does is push away someone that might have come to understand your position better …given the chance.

Another is Glass Door Reviews. Not sure How those work, but it is My experience that when a worker is discontented, they have a tendency to be biased. Their opinions are not always fair to the employer. And especially if they have left the employ… they cannot help but shout from the rooftops what crap their old Boss was.

So I tend to take those reviews with a lb of salt.

Lastly as to the game going downhill. This is purely opinion. One person’s trash is another’s treasure.

While I can quibble about how some changes were implemented. level 36 traits requiring nigh impossible accomplishments to unlock for example… the lateness of the traits, so Players have to hit level 36, before they have any optional traits to personalize their character for example….

I think the changes On average are good ones. I fail to detect this…. " going downhill."

Maybe some of this is " I no longer like the game, therefore it MUST suck." ? hard to tell since you have a habit of proclaiming your opinions as if they were facts.

In parting:

I do hope you find the game with the endgame you find enjoyable.

Might I reccomend World of Warcraft, since you have brought it up more than any other, as an indicator of Good endgame design?

Blaeys.3102:

Vayne.8563:

An end game that would work for me, is to make a really hard mode story version, using the stories they have already in the journal but ramping it up and providing titles or cosmetic stuff for people that can get through it. Sort of like a tribulation mode in SAB but for the Living Story. Make it so failure is the default state and you really have to figure out how to spec perfectly to succeed.

I would definitely support this idea. There would need to be some kind of ongoing reward system in place for the story instances (both the regular and the hardcore) to make it viable. This wouldn’t have to be much – something as simple as champ loot bags would be enough for many.

One thing I think would be cool (and fit well in the game) would be to implement Season Armor/Weapon Sets – unlocked with tokens from repeating living story steps (gated daily just like dungeons – small number of tokens for completing on regular mode and about twice that many for completing on). Basically introduce 1-2 armor/weapon pieces with each episode until full sets are out.

The big advantage is they already have the assets. They can make stuff harder, without making all new content.

There’s probably not enough hard core players to dedicate an entire new instance to that they won’t run so much anyway….like the new path of TA. A lot of work and very few people run it.

This allows them to produce lots of difficult content relatively quickly.

Instant end game…just add water.

Vayne.8563:

Blaeys.3102:

Vayne.8563:

An end game that would work for me, is to make a really hard mode story version, using the stories they have already in the journal but ramping it up and providing titles or cosmetic stuff for people that can get through it. Sort of like a tribulation mode in SAB but for the Living Story. Make it so failure is the default state and you really have to figure out how to spec perfectly to succeed.

I would definitely support this idea. There would need to be some kind of ongoing reward system in place for the story instances (both the regular and the hardcore) to make it viable. This wouldn’t have to be much – something as simple as champ loot bags would be enough for many.

One thing I think would be cool (and fit well in the game) would be to implement Season Armor/Weapon Sets – unlocked with tokens from repeating living story steps (gated daily just like dungeons – small number of tokens for completing on regular mode and about twice that many for completing on). Basically introduce 1-2 armor/weapon pieces with each episode until full sets are out.

The big advantage is they already have the assets. They can make stuff harder, without making all new content.

There’s probably not enough hard core players to dedicate an entire new instance to that they won’t run so much anyway….like the new path of TA. A lot of work and very few people run it.

This allows them to produce lots of difficult content relatively quickly.

Instant end game…just add water.

Now the conversation is heading in a productive direction.

As you say, the good thing about this kind of system is that it would play off of what is already in the game – rather than reinventing the wheel.

While I disagree about TAssault (I love that place – even have the mini from the meta – and would love to see 1 path in each dungeon mirror its difficulty), I really like your idea of shorter more challenging instances.

So, with that in mind, how could they take other existing elements and add to them in ways that would add more challenge or content to end game – without compromising or pulling resources away from the game we have now.

Let’s see what people can come up with. Below is mine.

GUILD MISSIONS

The one idea I had would be for guild missions. Simply add a “Guild Bounty Level 4” that, instead of involving more bosses, gives us two targets but significantly scales them up for larger groups (eg, Devious Teesa starts scaling with 30+ people in mind when you trigger a T4). They could do the same with a “Guild Challenge, Level 2” (eg, save our supplies now includes some champion level Flame Legion Effigies shambling toward the barrels).

I think world bosses are covered with things like Tequatl and Evolved Worm, but what other game elements could use this treatment? Could they add to jumping puzzles or minigames in some way? What about open world zones?

I’d love different guild missions. We do them twice a week, and we’ve done most of them too many times. I’d also like to see more guild puzzles.

I’d also like to see something along the line of longer, scavenger hunt type things. People have mentioned before stuff like pact missions. I avoid order missions because Anet would have to make 3 for each update.

Vayne.8563:

I’d love different guild missions. We do them twice a week, and we’ve done most of them too many times. I’d also like to see more guild puzzles.

I’d also like to see something along the line of longer, scavenger hunt type things. People have mentioned before stuff like pact missions. I avoid order missions because Anet would have to make 3 for each update.

Pact Missions could be really simple and play off of the existing dynamic events (keeping in line with the theme of not reinventing the wheel). It could be a useful tool in getting people out into the world for some of the less played and more obscure dynamic events (kinda like they tried to do with the crown chain in the last living story – only a little more believable since they would be routine missions and not tied to something as epic as the crown shards).

Every week, 3-4 missions (dynamic events) are listed at a pact NPC in Ft Trinity (or anywhere really). Reward could be as simple as a champion bag for each listed DE completed.

Blaeys.3102:

Vayne.8563:

I’d love different guild missions. We do them twice a week, and we’ve done most of them too many times. I’d also like to see more guild puzzles.

I’d also like to see something along the line of longer, scavenger hunt type things. People have mentioned before stuff like pact missions. I avoid order missions because Anet would have to make 3 for each update.

Pact Missions could be really simple and play off of the existing dynamic events (keeping in line with the theme of not reinventing the wheel). It could be a useful tool in getting people out into the world for some of the less played and more obscure dynamic events (kinda like they tried to do with the crown chain in the last living story – only a little more believable since they would be routine missions and not tied to something as epic as the crown shards).

Every week, 3-4 missions (dynamic events) are listed at a pact NPC in Ft Trinity (or anywhere really). Reward could be as simple as a champion bag for each listed DE completed.

In this particular situation, I’d sort of like for them to reinvent the wheel a bit…what this game is lacking from my point of view is more involved quest chains. Not traditional quest chains. But something that’s not a dynamic event that isn’t just something that’s either on a timer or random. Something like the aforementioned black moa chick quest from Guild Wars 1.

They did something like the mad king scavenger hunt for clues at one point. They can use existing locations. But something that involves solving puzzles, instead of just killing things.

And yeah I know, most people will just get stuck and run to Dulfy or the wiki, but I think there are a lot of people who play these games that would like to see something puzzle oriented.

Vayne.8563:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Endgame, for me, would be things (lots of them) like the Black Moa Chick quest. Or bringing back Nick’s descendant. Lol. But, see? I’m not into the whole ‘raiding’-type of content, so I’m sure I’m in a sad minority.

I’m right there with you.

Me three!

<3 The black moa chick easter egg / scavenger hunt / quest. W/e you wanna call it. I still have volcanic rocks and such in my storage waiting to be turned into a mini. (Admittedly when you try doing it 40+ times, you get a little bored)

Nerelith.7360:

I have embraced my inner carebear bunny slippers wearing Plushy backpack wearing asura… and I have to say , I have never been more content.

The best i have read in this thread for a long time

So .. where is the endgame of this thread ? The thread will die. I find myself just
looking into this thread to read 3-4 words in most posts and then say : booooring
and skip to the next.

Major issues with endgame:

1. Ascended gear: Why does it even exist? In every mmo I have played you need better gear to do harder content, but in this game ascended gear is not even close to being required. The gap between ascended gear and exotic gear is just too small. You can do all the content with exotics… so why go for ascended?

Ascended gear also costs a ton to make, and crafting it is pretty much required because the drop rate on ascended gear is far far too low to make dropping the sets you want a viable option.

2. Dungeons: Anyone who has been 80 for a while has done all the dungeons hundreds, if not thousands, of times. Endgame seems to revolve around making a fancy looking character… but it is exhausting to repeat the same poorly designed dungeons over and over and over to get the gold required to make unnecessary ascended gear or fancy skins. Once you get the skin you want… then what? Do the same content another 300 times to get another fancy skin.

Without any sort of trinity, there’s no room for cleverly designed dungeons with real mechanics… instead every dungeon is the same stack and spam as the previous one. I can count the number of bosses in this game with really interesting mechanics on one hand.

WvW: What is there to even say about the mess that is WvW? there hasn’t been an attempt to balance it since release and it has devolved into mindless zerging around. I don’t find it fun, maybe some people do.

1) In traditional MMOs, raiding a ton of times eventually gets you your BIS gear. Here if you want BIS gear, you have to craft it from mats you gather from boss chest content and leveling your crafting to 500.

2) That’s not true. It’s difficult to PUG dungeons if you aren’t kitted out “correctly”. Not talking about difficulty in doing the dungeon but in getting on a party. Because of that, no I haven’t run all the paths hundreds of times but only a few a couple of times. Longer I play, less likely a PUG will accept me.

WvW: Yes it does resembles pee-wee soccer AKA “crowd ball”. I’ve always thought of it as a massive capture the flag/paintball event.

Nope, not all of us have done the dungeons hundreds or thousands of times. Lol, I think I’ve only done 3 paths total of all the dungeons combined. I won’t even try to do dungeons because my main is considered ‘bad’.

But, for me, there is always something to do. =)

Still want Nick’s descendant and Moa Chick-type quests, though.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Endgame, for me, would be things (lots of them) like the Black Moa Chick quest. Or bringing back Nick’s descendant. Lol. But, see? I’m not into the whole ‘raiding’-type of content, so I’m sure I’m in a sad minority.

I’m in that same minority now, so it’s growing!

I hope the addition of things like the vine back piece crafting points to them creating a sprawling “end game” where they add lots of things to do over a long period of time, that and slow ascended crafting will be keeping me busy for a while.

That said, I can see the benefit of adding more, let’s call it tough, group content for guilds. Not for me anymore maybe but I can see why people would want it.

To me, in an MMO, End Game, means just that – END OF GAME. Since an MMO should be one where the game can continue on, hence why A.Net is doing these LS2 additions. It makes the world seem alive and growing. I like what they are trying to accomplish not the implementation of it (improvement is needed although LS2 is light years ahead of LS1).

If you think RAIDS, etc are all that needs to be the end of the game then this game’s philosophy is not what you want. You want a WoW philosophy.

Personally, what keeps me playing games is PvP content. That’s MY endgame.

However the PvP in this game is so atrociously bad, it’s painful. Extremely poor balance. A single game mode. Uneven games. Broken (and easily abused) ladders.

I would say fixing PvP would help retain a lot of players, but it’s too late for that. The PvP community that would have given this game extreme longevity gave up and left a year or more ago.

Vayne.8563:

In this game, you’re rewarded for rezzing people. There’s not only experience, there’s an achievement and a title. The game is training people to work TOGETHER. Which fosters a more social more caring atmosphere. More carebear if you will.

It’s actually the opposite – when spanking a mob, you lose out on dps as soon as you stop to rez, so most don’t/won’t bother.

So yea, it still encourages competition, it’s just that it also gives one the option for cooperation. And somehow I doubt the players who preferred competition will suddenly feel like starting a ‘rez-dat-baddie’ spree.

Moreover, I still don’t see how it fosters a more caring atmosphere than instanced content did on GW. As a matter of fact, instanced content prevented a lot of the issues people hated on games like WoW (node camp, mob camp etc.), so………..

When you beat the personal story, the credits roll.

Your personal story is the end game. Just like in Skyrim, when you beat the main quest, that’s the end game.

Nerelith.7360:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I think you are missing the point of core cooperation rather than competitiveness. It is more ‘social’ to cooperate or, at least, not have to compete to get mats from nodes, or XP and drops from mobs. It fosters a friendlier environment, where you may make a friend, rather than an enemy because no one is irritated that you ‘stole’ his/her kill or material or whatever.

That’s all. Geez!

OT – I enjoy what this game offers, and I don’t feel the need for any of the OP’s proposed ‘endgame’. There are, of course, things I would like added to the game, but I’m sure most would not consider them their definition of ‘endgame’.

I have to agree. I find that this game is more social, because In other games I have played (cough) WoW ( cough)…if someone is fighting something and dieing, and I jump in to help, there have been times I got yelled at.

Here, I can Jump in and help, and people actually thank me.

Oh, dark memories! I stopped to heal a guy (in ‘that game’) who was at about 1% health once, & got yelled at AND harassed. I was on a male paladin & I think he felt I’d made him look bad in front of his girlfriend. (he said as much – I told him that I’m female irl, and not after his woman… It was the weirdest, most depressing thing!) Helping people in GW2 is the best thing about the game. It’s so nice not to see other players, always, as potential adversaries.

Nerelith.7360:

I have to agree. I find that this game is more social, because In other games I have played (cough) WoW ( cough)…if someone is fighting something and dieing, and I jump in to help, there have been times I got yelled at.

Here, I can Jump in and help, and people actually thank me.

Technically they are being social for yelling at you.

Still, I rather not have people around in GW2 if I’m doing map completion, because monster just die too fast that I’m too slow to tag monster.

Obviously I like to have people around if I’m fighting champions.

Dusty Moon.4382:

To me, in an MMO, End Game, means just that – END OF GAME. Since an MMO should be one where the game can continue on, hence why A.Net is doing these LS2 additions. It makes the world seem alive and growing. I like what they are trying to accomplish not the implementation of it (improvement is needed although LS2 is light years ahead of LS1).

If you think RAIDS, etc are all that needs to be the end of the game then this game’s philosophy is not what you want. You want a WoW philosophy.

I think that’s what people is complaining.

Other games just make a few raid dungeon, or hard dungeon, or battle ground, scenario, people would actually keep playing the game just because of those.

Now come to GW2, those things are not there. Worse, the dev pretty much says they dont’ want to keep making new dungeons because that split the player base. What we are left are mini games, expanded story line etc.

And it is not just about raids. It’s about pvp also. There are much much more people in other games that play pvp, compare to the spvp GW2 have. And GW2 WvW (the only core system they did ok with) is kind of slowing down to me. And mostly people are just farming EOTM instead of really wvwing.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Vayne.8563:

In this game, you’re rewarded for rezzing people. There’s not only experience, there’s an achievement and a title. The game is training people to work TOGETHER. Which fosters a more social more caring atmosphere. More carebear if you will.

It’s actually the opposite – when spanking a mob, you lose out on dps as soon as you stop to rez, so most don’t/won’t bother.

So yea, it still encourages competition, it’s just that it also gives one the option for cooperation. And somehow I doubt the players who preferred competition will suddenly feel like starting a ‘rez-dat-baddie’ spree.

Moreover, I still don’t see how it fosters a more caring atmosphere than instanced content did on GW. As a matter of fact, instanced content prevented a lot of the issues people hated on games like WoW (node camp, mob camp etc.), so………..

Most won’t bother? I guess then I’m imagining the fact that every single time I go down, people rez me. There are definitely people who won’t bother. You have no way of knowing whether it’s most or not.

Making a game encourage people to be cooperative won’t guarantee everyone will be. You can’t train everyone. But lots and lots of people go out of their way to rez you. I’ve seen it time and time again.

I certainly rez people if I can. Sometimes, I may have to break off to let my own health increase, or kill off some mobs, but I do try to get them back up, if it’s feasible.

Maybe some people only see what they would do in a circumstance, and just don’t notice other things going on around them. /shrug

I stop to res if I am not in immediate danger, especially at big world bosses like Claw of Jormag or Temples .. . assuming those dead people aren’t at the foot of the boss.

What does your personal choice whether you stop to rez or not have to do with the fact it doesn’t reward you towards the action you were performing before you stopepd to rez.
Basically, what Ashen posted some time ago (bolded part by me):

At least in the open world content I play GW2 is far more competitive than cooperative. Helping another player means potentially not getting credit, or at least not full credit, for the events I play. The game punishes me for stopping my DPS to rezz another player. Conversely the game will reward me for ignoring players who need my assistance in order to maintain maximum possible damage output.

It didn’t used to be like this…or at least not to this degree. I think that the Megaserver is a net gain for the game, but it needs tweaks to prevent some of the current situations where it makes the PvE game more competitive and less cooperative.

Also, if there are about 50 people spanking a mob, 2 or 3 of which stop to rest, that kinda boils down to ‘most don’t bother’… naturally, many don’t even notice, and some can’t because they might die in the process.
I myself rezzed when I could, but that is beside the point.

KarlaGrey.5903:

What does your personal choice whether you stop to rez or not have to do with the fact it doesn’t reward you towards the action you were performing before you stopepd to rez.
Basically, what Ashen posted some time ago (bolded part by me):

At least in the open world content I play GW2 is far more competitive than cooperative. Helping another player means potentially not getting credit, or at least not full credit, for the events I play. The game punishes me for stopping my DPS to rezz another player. Conversely the game will reward me for ignoring players who need my assistance in order to maintain maximum possible damage output.

It didn’t used to be like this…or at least not to this degree. I think that the Megaserver is a net gain for the game, but it needs tweaks to prevent some of the current situations where it makes the PvE game more competitive and less cooperative.

Also, if there are about 50 people spanking a mob, 2 or 3 of which stop to rest, that kinda boils down to ‘most don’t bother’… naturally, many don’t even notice, and some can’t because they might die in the process.
I myself rezzed when I could, but that is beside the point.

Because there’s not much difference in Gold vs Silver rewards? Far as I’ve seen the only people who risk not getting a reward are those who get Bronze . . .

And don’t throw Tequila at me – most people explicitly are told to WP and run back because resurrecting is too dicey to do there. Along with some other high-level world bosses, where sitting about waiting to get picked up is worse than just standing there not doing anything. (At least if you’re standing there people using the “F” key to do stuff won’t accidentally start resurrecting you.)

is there a MMO that has an “end game” that you wont do things “over and over and over and over” again?

Zygomaticus.7469:

is there a MMO that has an “end game” that you wont do things “over and over and over and over” again?

No, not really . . . not to mention sometimes needing to do things over and over and over again just to get everyone you need into the endgame, so you can farm that then.

sooo every MMO with end game or not will eventually lead to having things done over and over and over again.

sooo I suggest O.P get out! live life! have fun! have adventures! travel the world! haha

Well, I’d play a condimancer in pve, just like in pvp, so stopping to rez was usually pretty detrimental to my getting (enough) credit for killing. Not to mention you eventually do get tired playing a rezbot.
Also, for someone who had spent most of their time in pvp, the diff between gold ans silver was quite big. We tend(ed) to be a rather poor bunch, when/if the gods of RNG weren’t on our side during dye crafting.

Heres the thing.
Regardless what you want for endgame, this game does not have much of it. regardless what you want for endgame, this game does not expand/refine/renew itself.

I think the endgame best developed and scaling in trading post pvp. You consistently get more progress, going as far as you like, it consistently renews and changes itself. And getting more money in shorter periods requires you to go further in depth.

Now sadly i am not the type who will enjoy that type of gameplay even though i can do it.

But lets say you like exploring, the game offeres very little new exploration comparitively, and not much for truely mastering the map.
I would add mini quests and events, timers and stamina based exploration events (end game for explorers)

lets say you like setting up community events, a political/social system where people can throw events, while getting good at it gives them access to more event related tools/uses/etc

regardless of what you are talking about, what you prefer, the endgame for it is generally fairly shallow.

And there are ways to expand open world endgame AND expand instanced dungeon endgame. Keep in mind the purpose of dungeons was SUPPOSED to be to appeal to the audience who were looking for a challenge. Just because you like open world, doesnt mean they should abolish, simplify or give up on dungeons.

As far as vaynes belief in the majority rule, its a bad idea to appeal to the majority to the exclusion of every one else. The best solutions appeal to a broad range of groups, or you create different solutions for different groups.

Just because 51% of the people buy angel cake doesnt mean its a great idea to make a business that only sells angel cake. you are giving up 49% of your customer base to appeal to angel cake market. Now this doesnt mean they should get rid of angel cake either, it probably means they should create systems that better adapt to the needs/desire of the customer overall.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

KarlaGrey.5903:

What does your personal choice whether you stop to rez or not have to do with the fact it doesn’t reward you towards the action you were performing before you stopepd to rez.
Basically, what Ashen posted some time ago (bolded part by me):

At least in the open world content I play GW2 is far more competitive than cooperative. Helping another player means potentially not getting credit, or at least not full credit, for the events I play. The game punishes me for stopping my DPS to rezz another player. Conversely the game will reward me for ignoring players who need my assistance in order to maintain maximum possible damage output.

It didn’t used to be like this…or at least not to this degree. I think that the Megaserver is a net gain for the game, but it needs tweaks to prevent some of the current situations where it makes the PvE game more competitive and less cooperative.

Also, if there are about 50 people spanking a mob, 2 or 3 of which stop to rest, that kinda boils down to ‘most don’t bother’… naturally, many don’t even notice, and some can’t because they might die in the process.
I myself rezzed when I could, but that is beside the point.

Because there’s not much difference in Gold vs Silver rewards? Far as I’ve seen the only people who risk not getting a reward are those who get Bronze . . .

And don’t throw Tequila at me – most people explicitly are told to WP and run back because resurrecting is too dicey to do there. Along with some other high-level world bosses, where sitting about waiting to get picked up is worse than just standing there not doing anything. (At least if you’re standing there people using the “F” key to do stuff won’t accidentally start resurrecting you.)

its often a bad idea to res dead players, resing a downed player is generally a good idea, unless they are really bad and die very often. Teq, etc just make it more obvious. Anyhow, how did this even get into a discussion about ressing, Highly competitive dungeon runners res people in dungeons as well, what does this have to do with endgame, or social or whatever.

placing competition againts social as if they are mutually exclusive is a false dichotomy.

phys.7689:

Heres the thing.
Regardless what you want for endgame, this game does not have much of it. regardless what you want for endgame, this game does not expand/refine/renew itself.

I think the endgame best developed and scaling in trading post pvp. You consistently get more progress, going as far as you like, it consistently renews and changes itself. And getting more money in shorter periods requires you to go further in depth.

Now sadly i am not the type who will enjoy that type of gameplay even though i can do it.

But lets say you like exploring, the game offeres very little new exploration comparitively, and not much for truely mastering the map.
I would add mini quests and events, timers and stamina based exploration events (end game for explorers)

lets say you like setting up community events, a political/social system where people can throw events, while getting good at it gives them access to more event related tools/uses/etc

regardless of what you are talking about, what you prefer, the endgame for it is generally fairly shallow.

And there are ways to expand open world endgame AND expand instanced dungeon endgame. Keep in mind the purpose of dungeons was SUPPOSED to be to appeal to the audience who were looking for a challenge. Just because you like open world, doesnt mean they should abolish, simplify or give up on dungeons.

As far as vaynes belief in the majority rule, its a bad idea to appeal to the majority to the exclusion of every one else. The best solutions appeal to a broad range of groups, or you create different solutions for different groups.

Just because 51% of the people buy angel cake doesnt mean its a great idea to make a business that only sells angel cake. you are giving up 49% of your customer base to appeal to angel cake market. Now this doesnt mean they should get rid of angel cake either, it probably means they should create systems that better adapt to the needs/desire of the customer overall.

What you’re saying here is very easy to say. However you don’t know how big the majority is and neither do I.

However, there are some demographics that if you cater to them you will ruin the game for your main demographic. Let’s say they added open world PvP. You’d certainly lose me as a player. I have no interest in it. Moreso the type of people attracted to that playstyle are people I’m not particularly interested in hanging out with generally. It would take the fun casual aspect of the game away and replace it with something very different.

Moreover there’s not one group of people asking for stuff. There are many. Working on doing something for each of those groups will take away what you can do for you main group. If Anet priorities PvP, WvW and dungeons and raids, they’d have to put a lot of time/energy, money and man hours into it.

And I believe most of those things don’t really help the core player base. If that is the case (and that’s if, I don’t really know, but I assume Anet does), then taking that amount of resources away from the main thrust of development would be more harmful to the game than helpful.

It doesn’t mean those parts of the game shouldn’t get any attention but it does mean that the content coming out for those times would take longer. We know for example that a new PvP game type is currently being worked on. But it’s going to take longer than it would to come out with the PvE stuff, because, in theory anyway, less people are interested in it.

Even if it’s the case that the people interested in those others things have left, putting it in won’t necessarily bring those people back. You have to work toward your strength to keep the primary population.

And a majority in this case doesn’t have to be 51%. It just means more people are playing this than anything else. Let’s say 45% of people are playing open world PvE/living story, but the other 55% are divded between RPing, playing the auction house, PvPing, WvWing, running dungeons, and minigames. each of those groups might encompass 15% of the player base.

Making stuff for everyone in enough quantity to please everyone is very easy to say. It’s not so easy to pull off, however.

Vayne.8563:

What you’re saying here is very easy to say. However you don’t know how big the majority is and neither do I.

However, there are some demographics that if you cater to them you will ruin the game for your main demographic. Let’s say they added open world PvP. You’d certainly lose me as a player. I have no interest in it. Moreso the type of people attracted to that playstyle are people I’m not particularly interested in hanging out with generally. It would take the fun casual aspect of the game away and replace it with something very different.

Moreover there’s not one group of people asking for stuff. There are many. Working on doing something for each of those groups will take away what you can do for you main group. If Anet priorities PvP, WvW and dungeons and raids, they’d have to put a lot of time/energy, money and man hours into it.

And I believe most of those things don’t really help the core player base. If that is the case (and that’s if, I don’t really know, but I assume Anet does), then taking that amount of resources away from the main thrust of development would be more harmful to the game than helpful.

It doesn’t mean those parts of the game shouldn’t get any attention but it does mean that the content coming out for those times would take longer. We know for example that a new PvP game type is currently being worked on. But it’s going to take longer than it would to come out with the PvE stuff, because, in theory anyway, less people are interested in it.

Even if it’s the case that the people interested in those others things have left, putting it in won’t necessarily bring those people back. You have to work toward your strength to keep the primary population.

And a majority in this case doesn’t have to be 51%. It just means more people are playing this than anything else. Let’s say 45% of people are playing open world PvE/living story, but the other 55% are divded between RPing, playing the auction house, PvPing, WvWing, running dungeons, and minigames. each of those groups might encompass 15% of the player base.

Making stuff for everyone in enough quantity to please everyone is very easy to say. It’s not so easy to pull off, however.

its not black and white, you wont please everyone, but you can please many. There are obviously somethings that are mutually exclusive, or wont work, but the majority of things arent exclusive, and the ability to design solutions that work on many levels is the name of the game.

As far as everything being in competition for the same resources, (manhours of dev time) Streamline your pipelines, and come up with ways to better montetize the things that bring value to the game.

This is not easy, but this is the goal that an mmo/business of this type should be aiming for, even if they fall short. (as long as they dont fall short in money)

My feeling/educated guess based on various things is that playerbase is contracting. This is normal, but by constantly putting resources mostly to people who are currently satisfied you essentially guarantee to have yourself a shrinking market, until the point where you have distilled your highly specialized product so that no person who likes that flavor can resist it. However, thats a much smaller number of people than you could have reached.

Analogy inc:
becoming an ultimate master of angel cake guarantees you that the angel cake conessieurs wont be able to ignore your shop. However you will slowly lose everyone else, because even the people who like angel cake a lot will get bored of it and show up at your shop less often eventually.

You d probably make more money making some really good angel cake, and a lot of other cakes decently, than being an angel cake master, unless angel cake-o-files are willing to pay enough for you to ignore all the customers you gave up.

The problem is, they seem to have opted for the former approach (mastering the art of making angel cakes), because otherwise their customer base would get ‘too fragmented’.

KarlaGrey.5903:

The problem is, they seem to have opted for the former approach (mastering the art of making angel cakes), because otherwise their customer base would get ‘too fragmented’.

yes, imo thats a bad idea, trying to herd many different playertypes into one form of content will to the exclusion of others is essentially going to shrink your market.
You can only get chocalte lovers to try and love your great angel cake if you are also selling some decent chocolate cake, and even when they like your angel cake, if you stop selling chocolate cake, or have a big quality downgrade, they will probably stop coming to you as often.

a solution for fragmentation that leads to you reducing your player base total, doesnt sound like a good idea to me, especially as it iterates.

One of the problems i think anet has with their design solutions are they tend to be too focused on a single condition to the exclusion of other considerations. This causes them to over design for those solutions, and cause problems in other things.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

What you’re saying here is very easy to say. However you don’t know how big the majority is and neither do I.

However, there are some demographics that if you cater to them you will ruin the game for your main demographic. Let’s say they added open world PvP. You’d certainly lose me as a player. I have no interest in it. Moreso the type of people attracted to that playstyle are people I’m not particularly interested in hanging out with generally. It would take the fun casual aspect of the game away and replace it with something very different.

Moreover there’s not one group of people asking for stuff. There are many. Working on doing something for each of those groups will take away what you can do for you main group. If Anet priorities PvP, WvW and dungeons and raids, they’d have to put a lot of time/energy, money and man hours into it.

And I believe most of those things don’t really help the core player base. If that is the case (and that’s if, I don’t really know, but I assume Anet does), then taking that amount of resources away from the main thrust of development would be more harmful to the game than helpful.

It doesn’t mean those parts of the game shouldn’t get any attention but it does mean that the content coming out for those times would take longer. We know for example that a new PvP game type is currently being worked on. But it’s going to take longer than it would to come out with the PvE stuff, because, in theory anyway, less people are interested in it.

Even if it’s the case that the people interested in those others things have left, putting it in won’t necessarily bring those people back. You have to work toward your strength to keep the primary population.

And a majority in this case doesn’t have to be 51%. It just means more people are playing this than anything else. Let’s say 45% of people are playing open world PvE/living story, but the other 55% are divded between RPing, playing the auction house, PvPing, WvWing, running dungeons, and minigames. each of those groups might encompass 15% of the player base.

Making stuff for everyone in enough quantity to please everyone is very easy to say. It’s not so easy to pull off, however.

its not black and white, you wont please everyone, but you can please many. There are obviously somethings that are mutually exclusive, or wont work, but the majority of things arent exclusive, and the ability to design solutions that work on many levels is the name of the game.

As far as everything being in competition for the same resources, (manhours of dev time) Streamline your pipelines, and come up with ways to better montetize the things that bring value to the game.

This is not easy, but this is the goal that an mmo/business of this type should be aiming for, even if they fall short. (as long as they dont fall short in money)

My feeling/educated guess based on various things is that playerbase is contracting. This is normal, but by constantly putting resources mostly to people who are currently satisfied you essentially guarantee to have yourself a shrinking market, until the point where you have distilled your highly specialized product so that no person who likes that flavor can resist it. However, thats a much smaller number of people than you could have reached.

Analogy inc:
becoming an ultimate master of angel cake guarantees you that the angel cake conessieurs wont be able to ignore your shop. However you will slowly lose everyone else, because even the people who like angel cake a lot will get bored of it and show up at your shop less often eventually.

You d probably make more money making some really good angel cake, and a lot of other cakes decently, than being an angel cake master, unless angel cake-o-files are willing to pay enough for you to ignore all the customers you gave up.

I’m not sure I agree with your assessment of the situation.

Would you rather be a half-baked shop that sells everything but nothing really good, or would you rather cater to one small niche demographic better than everyone else. I’m thinking that’s the choice here.

Anet’s not going to out raid raiding games, and no amount of content they can reasonably provide will keep hard core people interested long term. I really believe that.

What they do have is something no one else has, or at least something I’ve not been able to find anywhere else. They need to improve that experience, because that’s the one that differentiates them from the herd.

At the end of the day, this is just back seat developing by the both of us. I’m pretty sure Anet has a plan. They simply haven’t revealed it to us.

Vayne.8563:

I’m not sure I agree with your assessment of the situation.

Would you rather be a half-baked shop that sells everything but nothing really good, or would you rather cater to one small niche demographic better than everyone else. I’m thinking that’s the choice here.

Anet’s not going to out raid raiding games, and no amount of content they can reasonably provide will keep hard core people interested long term. I really believe that.

What they do have is something no one else has, or at least something I’ve not been able to find anywhere else. They need to improve that experience, because that’s the one that differentiates them from the herd.

At the end of the day, this is just back seat developing by the both of us. I’m pretty sure Anet has a plan. They simply haven’t revealed it to us.

just because anet has a plan, doesnt mean it is always a good one. The fractal reset is an example, its clear right now, that reseting people to 30 served very little purpose, and they will still have the same problems they were trying to solve (but did not) next time they want to add content/levels etc to fractals.

no one always has the right plan, one should not assume that people will always do everything right, just because they are paid to.