Guild Wars 2

Okay I’m going to start off with a case in point:

Today I was running Fractals of the mists and all was fine and dandy, we breezed through the first two fractals without much problem. Now on to the third one and here’s where things got “interesting”, It was the Uncategorized fractal. At this point I was happy because it looked as if we had lucked out on all 3 of our fractals and were most likely going to be going on to the next level easily. I’d like to just point out that this is a pug group so I don’t personally know any of these people so I can’t say they necessarily do this type of thing quite often.

Anyway we got to the boss chamber (the part with the 4 cages) and Immediately 3 of them rushed over to ettin cage to apparently kill it before we broke them out, which was news to me because I had never done this. So I went ahead and killed the power node like I’ve done many times before and almost immediately they started yelling at me that I wasn’t supposed to do that because they were exploiting the ability to melee the ettin through the “glass”. This also caused the ettin to bug after I had killed the node causing him to become invulnerable to anyone outside of his now open cage, but his AI was acting as if the cage was still closed. We killed the other three bosses and then broke aggro of the ettin by going out of the room and then came back to find that he was still bugged within his cage, making it (with the group setup we had) practically impossible to kill him. Once we had all either died or ran away they all started raging at me because apparently playing the fight the way it was intended is bad, and it went from easily doable to completely broken because they were trying to exploit it.

So Instead of finishing up that level and going onto the next one the group fell apart and I was left with a bad taste in my mouth because they saw fit to try and exploit a perfectly doable fight. I don’t really understand how people justify exploiting a game as fun when it is already quite fun playing it without taking advantage of bugs that make it easier or faster to do things. Is it really that fun to dumb down the game for yourself?
I honestly like when games are challenging, when they make me think about what I need to do before I do it. I don’t understand the people that justify facerolling as fun.

Fractals aren’t about “fun”. They’re about an endless series of progression through gaining access to the next Difficulty Lvl. People are more than willing to exploit or just train through mobs into a Thief’s Shadow Refuge. Anything that can shave minutes off of the countless hours needed to acquire the new Ascended gear is completely “fair”.

Now I don’t agree with that philosophy. It is a symptom of everything that I expected to see once I heard about the Fractal dungeon. However this is where ArenaNet wants to go and people are going to play however they need to. The key is to continue advancing until you hit at least LvL 20 in your Fractal flagging, which gives you access to the Infused Ring drops. Beyond that, every dirty trick in the book should be used as a means of circumventing parts of this moronic time sink.

^ Wiser with Age hit the nail on the head. It should speak volumes about grind vs fun when people prefer to exploit their way through new content than to run it legitimately.

Ayep, what he said above^^

If you could zone into FotM, /dance x6, /sleep x2, /say a certain phrase then purposefully disconnect … and when you came back it counted as finishing it, everyone would do that.

The fun was doing them the first couple times; learning the mechanics, exploring and seeing new things. After that wore off (around FotM 3?) it became another mindless Skinner box.

Push button; receive bacon.

The faster you get that button pushed, the faster you have the privilege of doing it again.

Dominae.3146:

Push button; receive bacon.

There’s bacon?!

LFG FotM any level.

Darknass.1903:

I don’t understand the people that justify facerolling as fun.

They don’t do it for fun. They do it to grind tokens, farm drops and hope for vial/ring chance.

People taking advantage of such exploits was part of why FotM was introduced in the first place. Speed runs to the acquisition of dungeon sets were not the way those dungeons were intended to be played, either.

This is a problem with catering to those whose goal is to get the new shiny. They tend to be more goal- than process-oriented, so doing what it takes to get to the goal faster is their MO. Report the Ogre cage exploit (yes, it is an exploit) and move on.

Gamers are lazy, and nobody likes being forced into a grind. Put two and two together and you get people who will take every opportunity to skip/exploit as much as they possibly can.

Its why 90% of the players during Lost Shores opted to use the Skipping Stones exploit rather than do the puzzle for the fun of it.

BTW, just to note, youll likely get an infraction and this thread will be deleted because you detailed how an exploit worked(at least thats my understanding of how the moderators work here).

I had a similar experience with the Colossus – people AOE’n the final seal instead of hitting the seal with the hammer after charging it.

Oh, and the Charr courtyard battle, people running along the map border to avoid fighting any of the mobs prior to Dulfy.

Oh, and the Dredge fractal, people running through the lava to avoid opening the cages and jumping through a glitch in the map to get to the “step on two platform” cage.

It’s become a case of farm as fast as you can – I don’t see the fun in it?? I somehow am at 8 or 9, and I did enjoy a few runs early on. Why not just remove all the trash mobs and let us fight a boss for 15-20 minutes and give us our treat.

This is why I’m not even going to bother with Fractals of the Mists at all.

When new content or a new game comes out, I like to see it in advance but I don’t like to be in the first rush to complete it. That’s partially because I don’t like competing for server resources while everything’s still hot, and that’s partially because I don’t like trading in experimental/evolving markets. If I wait a month or two after new content comes out before looking at it, then I can be certain that many of the bugs and exploits such as this are hammered out and that there’s people around that can give me tips regarding how to face encounters better.

I can’t really do most of that with Fractals yet, and possibly not ever, due to the nature of the dungeon. The only thing on that list I can reliably look at right now is the idea that others can show me through the dungeon, and even then that’s completely stripped away by the level gating system.

It’s that much harder to find a group because if I wait and fall behind I’m going to play catch up much longer than I usually would, and if I jump in right now I have to deal with mindless munchkin grind drones. It’s bad enough that I don’t like the ascended gear without dealing with any of that, so I’m simply not going to play Fractals.

Astralporing.1957:

Darknass.1903:

I don’t understand the people that justify facerolling as fun.

They don’t do it for fun. They do it to grind tokens, farm drops and hope for vial/ring chance.

Whats the point of playing a game if not to have fun? and whilst we’re on the subject of vials I’ve also noticed a lot of groups skipping through trash mobs… which is what drops those vials/globs and such later on aswell, why?

Exploiting is not much fun, but some aspects in this game are even less fun than exploiting them.

nachtnebel.9168:

Exploiting is not much fun, but some aspects in this game are even less fun than exploiting them.

Basically this. When you build your dungeons around an explicit grind don’t be surprised when people do whatever they can to shave time off the grind.

/raises hand

Are the same people that wanted the Ascended gear and this sort of tiered progression the same subset of people who then look to find ways to cheat through the content to make it go faster?

If they are totally separate sets of people, and the cheat set is all from the “well I’m doing fractals because I don’t want to be left behind, but I hate them” set, then I guess that might make some sense to me, but if there are folks in the cross over of a Venn Diagram, who both praise the content, and then consume the content by cheating to make it go fast, I gotta ask…why?

Does that then not start pushing you over into the “something for nothing” crowd, and if we’re getting something for nothing, then shouldn’t all this be easier to get and craftable, and then…why was it all created again?

You see my confusion, right?

Yukishiro.8792:

nachtnebel.9168:

Exploiting is not much fun, but some aspects in this game are even less fun than exploiting them.

Basically this. When you build your dungeons around an explicit grind don’t be surprised when people do whatever they can to shave time off the grind.

The thing is, in this instance anyway, the exploit doesn’t really save time but rather just makes it easier, and less interesting because you just sit there meleeing him to death through a pane of glass…

For that fight the hammer may be more of a red herring you cant kill the guy you get the hammer from and you have killed him once already. It seems a bit redundant to kill nearly the same boss 2 times. Now there are other exploitations that need to be looked at.

Darknass.1903:

I don’t understand the people that justify facerolling as fun.

Actually, the problem is your assumption that they were there for the fight. They were not. They were there for the opportunity to acquire “stuff”. The fights are only relevant in as much as they are the route to get the “stuff”. In the minds of these players, getting the “stuff” is the goal and getting through the things needed to get that “stuff” as quickly and efficiently as possible is desirable.

It isn’t about the fight, it isn’t about the “journey”. It is about the acquisition of virtual things.

Yes, I find it kitten also. Welcome to post-WoW MMOing.

This, I have to agree with – not for everyone of course. I’m sure after doing FoTM to Level 30 in one week (which some people have) you get bored with the content and look for ways around it.

So my question would be, why are you at FoTM level 30 to begin with? If you are actually having fun and enjoying the same content over and over, more power to you!!! However, if you are just doing it to be the best, to be the fastest and to have the best gear before everyone else. IMO, you have to take a long hard look at your life.

Of course it’s not fun.

Gear treadmills aren’t about fun, they are about lots of tedious grinding so that you can become more powerful then everyone else and thus feel superior… at least for a little while till the goalpost is moved and you have to grind more (but that’s ok, because it stops the peons who have jobs and/or other hobbies from ever catching up to you)

When I play to complete content, I see only the most efficient or quick solution and always opt for that route. If that involves some sort of “exploit”, so be it.

Instead of asking how exploiting could be fun, I would ask how it wouldn’t be. Or rather, what would be uninteresting about searching for and discovering ways to break the game or clear content? I’m a mathematician and frequent puzzle solver, and I take great interest in exploring the limits of what I can and can’t do, understanding where they put me, and using that knowledge to make solving problems much easier for me in the future.

I just see a lot of complaining…
Why can’t we have meaningful threads here.
You don’t want to exploit you should have left the group don’t reap the benefits and then come here to complain.

Make your own kitten groups people if you don’t like what people are doing no one is forcing you to do anything.

FotM got boring after lvl 5, with lvl 10 it got a little better but just until you realized that the have chosen the most boring possible way to implement agony. After that it’s just a grind for two rings, and once you got them, you are out.

The definition of a game is to “play by the rules”. If you break those rules by purpose, you’re not playing that game anymore. That, even a child does know it.

Now, from an adult standpoint, anyone knows that breaking a game’s rules will have negative consequences on other concurrent players.

Now what if you and I were engaging a friendly fight in real life, and you say “only punches”., but after a minute I suddenly started using a crowbar ?

kineticdamage.6279:

The definition of a game is to “play by the rules”. If you break those rules by purpose, you’re not playing that game anymore. That, even a child does know it.

Now, from an adult standpoint, anyone knows that breaking a game’s rules will have negative consequences on other concurrent players.

Now what if you and I were engaging a friendly fight in real life, and you say “only punches”., but after a minute I suddenly started using a crowbar ?

I agree with kinetic on this one im afraid… Also im very excited to see what is added to the instances as i progress through the difficultys…

kineticdamage.6279:

The definition of a game is to “play by the rules”. If you break those rules by purpose, you’re not playing that game anymore. That, even a child does know it.

Now, from an adult standpoint, anyone knows that breaking a game’s rules will have negative consequences on other concurrent players.

Now what if you and I were engaging a friendly fight in real life, and you say “only punches”., but after a minute I suddenly started using a crowbar ?

An exploit in itself is not a breach in rules. It’s an action that can be seen as capitalizing on poorly defined rules. Your analogy is poor because in that case, you’re breaking our one rule of “only punches”. However, if I started using brass knuckles, I would still be within the bounds of our rule and also be taking advantage of the fact that the rule wasn’t declared to be “only fists” or something more well-defined.

Shayne Hawke.9160:

When I play to complete content, I see only the most efficient or quick solution and always opt for that route. If that involves some sort of “exploit”, so be it.

Instead of asking how exploiting could be fun, I would ask how it wouldn’t be. Or rather, what would be uninteresting about searching for and discovering ways to break the game or clear content? I’m a mathematician and frequent puzzle solver, and I take great interest in exploring the limits of what I can and can’t do, understanding where they put me, and using that knowledge to make solving problems much easier for me in the future.

While this is a fine approach to playing a game, fighting a mob when he cannot fight back was obviously not intended by the developer. This makes it an exploit which is a violation of the UA/ToS.

Genesis.5169:

I just see a lot of complaining…
Why can’t we have meaningful threads here.
You don’t want to exploit you should have left the group don’t reap the benefits and then come here to complain.

Make your own kitten groups people if you don’t like what people are doing no one is forcing you to do anything.

Complaining about complaining is never a good idea.
Meaning is subjective.
Agreed. The OP should have filed an exploit report, not made a forum post telling others how to use the exploit.
Everyone should have the right to play with who they want to, and excluding someone is part of that right.

Don’t listen to the gear grinders, they will leave the game long before the end.

IndigoSundown.5419:

While this is a fine approach to playing a game, fighting a mob when he cannot fight back was obviously not intended by the developer. This makes it an exploit which is a violation of the UA/ToS.

I don’t disagree with you.

kineticdamage.6279:

This is not new. World of Warcraft put the stepping stones for that mentality.
If some players could have gear just by pressing a button (or sucking a …), they’d definitely do it.

And yet, when they get into a discussion, they start accusing others of “wanting things easy”. Apparently it’s only okay if they do it.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Agreed. The OP should have filed an exploit report, not made a forum post telling others how to use the exploit.

I did, in fact send a report about it, the thing is, I came here to vent some frustration over an issue that I’ve seen quite frequently through out this game. You shouldn’t be rewarded for taking advantage of something that is broken, and yet time and time again I’ve seen people doing it because they deem it the best way to go forward. My point is, does it really feel rewarding/fun to take advantage of some blatant exploit to obtain your shinies?

Im my experience from my spectrum days and cheat codes for games like "how to be a complete Bar-steward" and jets set willy", My cheat codes for Turrican and Rastan on the amiga, and single player game cheat codes like that at my early age, I would say back then it excited me and it felt good and "naughty" but cool.. You were cool if you cheated.. Nowadays i despise cheating because it completley takes all the challenge out of my game.. Nothing is an actual acheivment anymore because i dident have to work hard for any of it...

Darknass.1903:

My point is, does it really feel rewarding/fun to take advantage of some blatant exploit to obtain your shinies?

This has already been explained. You keep asking about the reward and the fun because you don’t understand. Now that GW2 is just another pointlesss hamster wheel of a game, the shinies are all that matters.

Endgame now means endlessly running in the hamster wheel so I can gear up so I can keep running in the hamster wheel so I can gear up so I can keep running in the hamster wheel…

Darknass.1903:

My point is, does it really feel rewarding/fun to take advantage of some blatant exploit to obtain your shinies?

“Fun” – “Rewarding” – “Challenging” – these words keep coming up.

In the end … fun is totally subjective. What is fun to one isn’t always fun to another. What is rewarding to someone depends on their goals. Challenge is also wildly subjective.

Many people do not find the gear grind “fun”, nor challenging. Others claim they do (though I find it difficult to wrap my head around).

Frankly, to many of us, it is like standing in line to receive something. You know if you show up and stand there long enough you’ll get the thing you’re in line for. Maybe it takes waiting in line a few days, for long hours, but sooner or later you’ll get yours. Waiting in line sucks, isn’t fun, and is totally not challenging. Yet, because you want the thing (reward) you stand there.

The act of waiting (or repeating the content over and over in this case) is painful, and unfun. It is not enjoyable. To alleviate this, maybe you bring a couple friends with you, and hanging out with them makes waiting in line less painful. Spending time with your friends is fun! Therefore, this activity must be fun too? Well, no.

That is gear grind MMO’ing.

… I guess the bigger question is: if we do not find the game, or at least parts of it fun, why do bother playing it?

Bottom Line if something can be exploited and still = Win. You bet your ars people will exploit things, get their rewards, and come in the forums, and say the game isn’t hard, deal with it.

Anet said it was primarily aimed at their ‘dedicated players’ who had skipped the entire game in their rush to get geared.

Are you really that surprised that the same crowd would want to rush through and skip this content to get geared ?

Exploiting isn’t fun, it’s a by product of grinding games. People that are “exploiting” or “finding shortcuts” in the system to save time from repetitive tasks is considered normal human behavior.

I would also like to add that exploits will be exploited by the playerbase as much as possible because they know that the exploit will be fixed at some point in the future.

Why the hell were they doing a dungeon exploit that makes the dungeon run LONGER? That fight is easy enough, when all the baddies are in the same fight they all take at least incidental AoE… this speeding up the fight.

Chipping away at the Ettin’s HP pool only is simply lengthening the fight… thus defeated the purpose of exploiting/skipping dungeon content.

Hawks.5736:

Gamers are lazy…

They aren’t gamers.