Guild Wars 2

Is there really a problem in game design or is your perspective skewed by previous biases.

You’ve got to realise that for the past 8 years, WoW has been conditioning you (it’s players, former and/or recent) into thinking it is the only thing out there. This has been an excellent tactic for blizzard to spread because it is literally free and constant advertising. It hasn’t helped that many mmorpgs have tried to follow suit and eventually failed because of this.

Not because they didn’t have innovation or they were at heart bad games. But because WoW has conditioned its players to ask:

Why doesn’t it drip feed you content with raids? Why aren’t you rolling in cash through dailies? Why isn’t every new piece of gears stats designed to rub your kitten some more?

Many of the revolutionary things within guild wars 2, aren’t actually that revolutionary. Not because they’ve been stolen from other games but because many of the ideas actually debuded in Guild Wars 1.

Punishingly hard dungeons? In guild wars 1. (with optional hard modes added later… O.o)
Early and easy to reach gear cap with prestige skins being hard to acquire and highly sought after? In guild wars 1.
Hitting level cap way before all the content has been seen and played through? yup… that’s right folks… In guild wars 1.

To the guild wars 1 vets this might seem like I am stating the obvious but it is truly amazing to see how many people are posting how these are terrible ideas that will never work. Thing is… They have already been demonstrated to work in Guild Wars.

Guild Wars 2 is bold enough to present you with enough content from release. Most mmorpgs, including WoW did not do this. It took several weeks before WoW added maraudon, a few months before they added dire maul and the first raid wasn’t seen for a long time after release.

So my advise to all those trying to find WoW where it is not.

Stop being blizzards free advertising chimp, post constructive feedback. And if you really cannot break free of the hold blizzard has on your opinions. Koltec will always welcome your £8.99 a month back with open arms.

The game has the POTENTIAL to be good. But if you are seriously saying the current game design and the way its moving forward is good, along with the statements of ArenaNet mistaken, then we will have to agree to disagree.

This game has MAJOR flaws, and its pretty obvious the game was rushed out to beat an upcoming game. The game is seriously buggy in many aspects, and even class defining skills, mechanics and even the lack of a player to player trade mechanic is telling enough.

You then went on to discuss wow’s content at release. That was a game that came out 8 YEARS ago, when the MMO genre was tiny and almost all MMO’s had very little content on release. To compare that to modern MMO’s in a vain attempt to prove a point is laughable at best.

Lets also not get into the argument about beta being very buggy and many complaints were made, even when they announced the release date, and lets also not forget that beta was only there for people who had prePURCHASED (not pre-ordered) the game, so arenanet knew they had money in their pockets anyway from people who were going to play the game regardless of what happened.

You are welcome to your opinion, but thats all your OP was. Pure opinion. The facts surrounding this game are there for all to see and cannot be denied.

The game has amazing potential, but even though its only 3 weeks since launch, we are getting very little information or even reassurance from the devs that they realise this games potential.

@Renegadeimp

Pot, meet Kettle. Kettle, Pot.

Your rebuttal was nothing more than illusions and masked opinions.

The game is designed to be different. That does not include raids, gear treadmills, and every other “old” mechanic that people are complaining about. I’m not meaning to be argumentative, but I just wish people would spend as much time learning as they do flapping their lips. Then, they might not complain over nothing.

Renegadeimp.8439:

even the lack of a player to player trade mechanic is telling enough.

For the hundredth time, it is a design choice.

Clearly the fact that I’ve been able to survive at least 2, maybe 3 hits before dying in other games has made me incredibly bias in Guild Wars 2. Yes.

The only major flaw I see isn’t with the game actually but the mindset of a small subset of the player community. Let go of the old, let goooooooooo.

Renegadeimp.8439:

This game has MAJOR flaws, and its pretty obvious the game was rushed out to beat an upcoming game.

Sorry but you lost me at that line. You clearly know nothing of the development of this game. Guild Wars 2 is the furthest thing from a rushed game that I have ever seen. Many of us expected it to release LAST YEAR. ArenaNet was very thorough about making sure they felt that the game was ready. There is no doubt that they waited until the game was ready for release in their eyes. You people need to understand that no game is released without bugs. That would be impossible as they can’t test with the full spectrum of players that there will be after release. This is the most polished and stable MMO release that I have ever participated in, and I have participated in most.

Alice.8694:

Guild Wars 2 is bold enough to present you with enough content from release. Most mmorpgs, including WoW did not do this. It took several weeks before WoW added maraudon, a few months before they added dire maul and the first raid wasn’t seen for a long time after release.

WoW came out in 2004, GW2 was started in 2007 and came out in 2012, 3 years after WoW + 5 years of development is PLENTY of time to see mistakes WoW made and not make them again. So if you are gonna explain missing things in GW2 by saying “WoW haven’t had lot of things during release” you’re making a fool of yourself. It’s not like WoW is a super secret game that nobody can play.

Another genius sentence is “well, GW2 isn’t designed as gear-grinder” because the /map chat is full of one thing “CoF explo speed run” and you can’t tell me they farm this path for fun because amount of players running in CoF gear is growing every day.

Cheers

P.S: Developers can say “we designed this to work like this and use like this”, but the players decide how they gonna use the mechanics and gameplay. Best example – Battlefield 3. I’m pretty sure RPG and SMAW was designed to use aganist tanks not aganist infantry on Operation Metro, and MAV was designed to scout not to fly on buildings and C4 is meant to blow stuff up and not put it on jeep and ram into things".

Concept is one thing, real life community is other things.

muthax.4720:

The only major flaw I see isn’t with the game actually but the mindset of a small subset of the player community. Let go of the old, let goooooooooo.

This!

Rukia.4802:

Clearly the fact that I’ve been able to survive at least 2, maybe 3 hits before dying in other games has made me incredibly bias in Guild Wars 2. Yes.

I like your signature. Have you actually tried moving, evading, switching weapons, porting in and out? You know, playing your class properly. As I thief, if I don’t do those things, I get 2 shotted. That’s why when I am tired I play a guardian…..

muthax.4720:

Rukia.4802:

Clearly the fact that I’ve been able to survive at least 2, maybe 3 hits before dying in other games has made me incredibly bias in Guild Wars 2. Yes.

I like your signature. Have you actually tried moving, evading, switching weapons, porting in and out? You know, playing your class properly. As I thief, if I don’t do those things, I get 2 shotted. That’s why when I am tired I play a guardian…..

Because clearly I’m referring to regular mobs.

Renegadeimp.8439:

This game has MAJOR flaws, and its pretty obvious the game was rushed out to beat an upcoming game. The game is seriously buggy in many aspects, and even class defining skills, mechanics and even the lack of a player to player trade mechanic is telling enough.

Can you list some as I have come across none (have played Warrior Engineer and Mesmer in the Norn, Asuran, & Sylvari zones)

You are welcome to your opinion, but thats all your OP was. Pure opinion. The facts surrounding this game are there for all to see and cannot be denied.

State them then and we can discuss those facts

The game has amazing potential, but even though its only 3 weeks since launch, we are getting very little information or even reassurance from the devs that they realise this games potential.

What you are assuming here is that what exists now was not done by design and so needs to be changed. The Devs are ‘quite’ because you are railing against their design not bugs and flaws.

Renegadeimp.8439:

You are welcome to your opinion, but thats all your OP was. Pure opinion. The facts surrounding this game are there for all to see and cannot be denied.

You should be a politican… You say alot and yet successfully say nothing at all while claiming you hold some superior position.

The fact that the mechanics present in guild wars 1 were previously successful is not pure opinion. It’s fact, it’s 3 expansions and 5 million sales to demonstrate that fact, infact. That’s the sales of GW1 last time I looked, might be higher now.

That means that despite the fact that they didn’t have a subscription fee and the cash shop was pretty minimalist in 1. They managed to fund 2 additional chapters and an expansion and then an entire second game off of these mechanics.

This is not pure opinion… This is demonstrating that people liked them and that they worked.

Though we do agree on one thing, the bugs arenanet… Need to go fast.

Deith.7596:

Alice.8694:

Guild Wars 2 is bold enough to present you with enough content from release. Most mmorpgs, including WoW did not do this. It took several weeks before WoW added maraudon, a few months before they added dire maul and the first raid wasn’t seen for a long time after release.

Another genius sentence is “well, GW2 isn’t designed as gear-grinder” because the /map chat is full of one thing “CoF explo speed run” and you can’t tell me they farm this path for fun because amount of players running in CoF gear is growing every day.

Sorry but no one promised you there wouldn’t be gear grind. Infact they clearly stated the best LOOKING items would be very difficult to achieve.

What they did promise is that attaining the highest stat gear would be relatively easy. Which is it. Either you are misinformed or you like to beat on strawmen. Ignorance or dishonesty, you choose?

There are no major or gamebreaking flaws
There are some bugs in some explorable paths of dungeons, which I’m sure will work its way out, but there are not blocks no gamebreaking things that stop your story or progress, and unless you are an absolute completionist you won’t even see 99% of the bugs that exist
It is always about direction AN is going on the correct path right now if they continue to this game will be around for a long long time
I would say the levelling process was very polished and where most games start slacking off is post 80 they are a ton better then what we saw from games in the last 7 years or more

Rukia.4802:

muthax.4720:

Rukia.4802:

Clearly the fact that I’ve been able to survive at least 2, maybe 3 hits before dying in other games has made me incredibly bias in Guild Wars 2. Yes.

I like your signature. Have you actually tried moving, evading, switching weapons, porting in and out? You know, playing your class properly. As I thief, if I don’t do those things, I get 2 shotted. That’s why when I am tired I play a guardian…..

Because clearly I’m referring to regular mobs.

I am talking about champions and WvWvW
Your point again? If you don’t move and you stay toe to toe with a Champ, you gonna get obliterated. What’s wrong with that?

mangarrage.1062:

There are no major or gamebreaking flaws
There are some bugs in some explorable paths of dungeons, which I’m sure will work its way out, but there are not blocks no gamebreaking things that stop your story or progress, and unless you are an absolute completionist you won’t even see 99% of the bugs that exist
It is always about direction AN is going on the correct path right now if they continue to this game will be around for a long long time
I would say the levelling process was very polished and where most games start slacking off is post 80 they are a ton better then what we saw from games in the last 7 years or more

Well I have to disagree there… At least on my server… Orr is stuck in a permanent state of frozen dynamic events and nothing is flowing.

Though for the most part, I didn’t encounter many bugs on my way up to 43% world completion (where I am now.)

I am sorry but suggesting that WoW conditioned the players is silly.

WoW and Blizzard never conditioned anyone . If you played vanilla WoW you realize it was a completely different beast from the current state. Think of the Warlord grind for the Warlord or GM weapons.

No, the noobfest drip feeders always existed. Blizzard recognised this and changed their gameplay to feed of the majority. And yes the vast majority . We are not talking a small or even a signficant subset of the gaming mmorpgers. We are talking the vast majority .

As for drop feed content in raids, well according to Blizzard themselves they had to make the content easier as only a tiny 2% ever got to see it because it was … too hard.

So yeah your claim to punishing hard content already existed before your GW1 ever was a twinkle in its developer eyes.

Now i am quite thrilled with GW2, the problem is that thrill is largely done with the prospect of a grind ( 60 COF runs for a set of armor ? ).

muthax.4720:

Rukia.4802:

muthax.4720:

Rukia.4802:

Clearly the fact that I’ve been able to survive at least 2, maybe 3 hits before dying in other games has made me incredibly bias in Guild Wars 2. Yes.

I like your signature. Have you actually tried moving, evading, switching weapons, porting in and out? You know, playing your class properly. As I thief, if I don’t do those things, I get 2 shotted. That’s why when I am tired I play a guardian…..

Because clearly I’m referring to regular mobs.

I am talking about champions and WvWvW
Your point again? If you don’t move and you stay toe to toe with a Champ, you gonna get obliterated. What’s wrong with that?

And I’m talking 1 shot mechanics, for example dungeon mobs/bosses. And some champions have the same. 1 shot kills shouldn’t exist, it’s poor design. 2 shots sure, because you have a chance of surviving and can heal up, giving you that chance to dodge the next hit etc. 1 shot is just hilariously lazy design.

Rukia.4802:

muthax.4720:

Rukia.4802:

muthax.4720:

Rukia.4802:

Clearly the fact that I’ve been able to survive at least 2, maybe 3 hits before dying in other games has made me incredibly bias in Guild Wars 2. Yes.

I like your signature. Have you actually tried moving, evading, switching weapons, porting in and out? You know, playing your class properly. As I thief, if I don’t do those things, I get 2 shotted. That’s why when I am tired I play a guardian…..

Because clearly I’m referring to regular mobs.

I am talking about champions and WvWvW
Your point again? If you don’t move and you stay toe to toe with a Champ, you gonna get obliterated. What’s wrong with that?

And I’m talking 1 shot mechanics, for example dungeon mobs/bosses. And some champions have the same. 1 shot kills shouldn’t exist, it’s poor design. 2 shots sure, because you have a chance of surviving and can heal up, giving you that chance to dodge the next hit etc. 1 shot is just hilariously lazy design.

I’m playing dagger/dagger, dagger/pistol and venomancer aura spec thief. And I never get one shotted unless the boss intentionally has a kiting requirement and melee is impossible.

You clearly need more toughness and vitality in your gear.

Major Flaws:
1. Holy Trinity removal has created mindless zergs

2. Professions are too normalized causing them to not have enough distinction. This is mainly due to traits being carbon copies from one profession to the next.

3. You get all of the main attack abilities that your character will ever have by the time your level 5 causing you to become very bored of them real quick on your way to 80..

Rukia.4802:

muthax.4720:

Rukia.4802:

muthax.4720:

Rukia.4802:

Clearly the fact that I’ve been able to survive at least 2, maybe 3 hits before dying in other games has made me incredibly bias in Guild Wars 2. Yes.

I like your signature. Have you actually tried moving, evading, switching weapons, porting in and out? You know, playing your class properly. As I thief, if I don’t do those things, I get 2 shotted. That’s why when I am tired I play a guardian…..

Because clearly I’m referring to regular mobs.

I am talking about champions and WvWvW
Your point again? If you don’t move and you stay toe to toe with a Champ, you gonna get obliterated. What’s wrong with that?

And I’m talking 1 shot mechanics, for example dungeon mobs/bosses. And some champions have the same. 1 shot kills shouldn’t exist, it’s poor design. 2 shots sure, because you have a chance of surviving and can heal up, giving you that chance to dodge the next hit etc. 1 shot is just hilariously lazy design.

All the mobs that I saw one-shotting sort of gave enough warning to try to evade (and all the times I got smashed I wasn’t paying enough attention). People really have to learn how to play this game (including me of course)

Alice.8694:

Rukia.4802:

muthax.4720:

Rukia.4802:

muthax.4720:

Rukia.4802:

Clearly the fact that I’ve been able to survive at least 2, maybe 3 hits before dying in other games has made me incredibly bias in Guild Wars 2. Yes.

I like your signature. Have you actually tried moving, evading, switching weapons, porting in and out? You know, playing your class properly. As I thief, if I don’t do those things, I get 2 shotted. That’s why when I am tired I play a guardian…..

Because clearly I’m referring to regular mobs.

I am talking about champions and WvWvW
Your point again? If you don’t move and you stay toe to toe with a Champ, you gonna get obliterated. What’s wrong with that?

And I’m talking 1 shot mechanics, for example dungeon mobs/bosses. And some champions have the same. 1 shot kills shouldn’t exist, it’s poor design. 2 shots sure, because you have a chance of surviving and can heal up, giving you that chance to dodge the next hit etc. 1 shot is just hilariously lazy design.

I’m playing dagger/dagger, dagger/pistol and venomancer aura spec thief. And I never get one shotted unless the boss intentionally has a kiting requirement and melee is impossible.

You clearly need more toughness and vitality in your gear.

This would work but you can be a glass cannon if you keep on porting out to recover, zooming in BAM! and out.

muthax.4720:

Rukia.4802:

muthax.4720:

Rukia.4802:

muthax.4720:

Rukia.4802:

Clearly the fact that I’ve been able to survive at least 2, maybe 3 hits before dying in other games has made me incredibly bias in Guild Wars 2. Yes.

I like your signature. Have you actually tried moving, evading, switching weapons, porting in and out? You know, playing your class properly. As I thief, if I don’t do those things, I get 2 shotted. That’s why when I am tired I play a guardian…..

Because clearly I’m referring to regular mobs.

I am talking about champions and WvWvW
Your point again? If you don’t move and you stay toe to toe with a Champ, you gonna get obliterated. What’s wrong with that?

And I’m talking 1 shot mechanics, for example dungeon mobs/bosses. And some champions have the same. 1 shot kills shouldn’t exist, it’s poor design. 2 shots sure, because you have a chance of surviving and can heal up, giving you that chance to dodge the next hit etc. 1 shot is just hilariously lazy design.

All the mobs that I saw one-shotting sort of gave enough warning to try to evade (and all the times I got smashed I wasn’t paying enough attention). People really have to learn how to play this game (including me of course)

I don’t disagree with you, I can obviously run a boss multiple times and learn his skill queue’s but are you saying 1 shot mechanics are ok? Because I disagree, and think they are lazy horrible design. I simply don’t find it fun when I go down in 1 hit.

Geemo.6018:

Major Flaws:
1. Holy Trinity removal has created mindless zergs

It’s only mindless if you don’t know how to play. Learn.

2. Professions are too normalized causing them to not have enough distinction. This is mainly due to traits being carbon copies from one profession to the next.

Having played a thief to 80 and a ranger to 40 I can happily state that between these two potentially similar classes there is little to no bleed-through of mechanics.

3. You get all of the main attack abilities that your character will ever have by the time your level 5 causing you to become very bored of them real quick on your way to 80..

I find new and interesting ways to link my skills together even now. If you dislike using the same moves repeatedly… I hope you intend to disregard almost every other game with combat ever… Except maybe bayonetta.

Stark.1350:

I don’t see any “major flaws”.

I’m gonna try to list a couple of flaws while trying to remain as neutral as possible.

- SPvP is currently lacking content. No rating system; hard to play with friends; lack of game modes; way too many pets, turrets, clones, summoned stuff (TG); animations aren’t clear enough to make out what is going on; some maps are generally unfun to play on because of design flaws (Ruins of Caledkfjdkfjs), sharks ruin underwater combat, people abusing the dip up and down thing in water so it takes 20 seconds to kill them.

- Orr is severly bugged and doesn’t work the way it’s supposed to. Events are either mindless zergs, or people don’t bother with them at all because the server has a low population. A lot of events never fail, so you only see half the content. Several skill points are bugged, hindreing people from Map Completion. Risen are everywhere, they have a lot of CC, a lot of health, which leads to frustration on the players part as it becomes tiring in the length.

- Personal story should’ve been tested extensively during beta. People are experiencing dialogue that never appears, there seems to be bugs on a lot of the different quests, blocking progress. I personally experienced this three times, which rendered three hours of gameplay worthless. Those are just the bugs, I won’t go into the quality of the personal quest here.

- WvW has some issues as well. Large queues, or lack of players. That depends on the server you play on, but some people have to wait up to several hours to get to participate, others don’t even bother because there server has such a low population that they will just lose regardless. If there are large battles going on, mobs and players turn invisible to reduce framerate lag(?), which leads to frustrating experiences like believing you are fighting one person, then realizing you are in fact fighting ten.

- Dungeons have no immediate or distinctive rewards. Tokens are a grind, you don’t get that “holy cow, that’s awesome, totally worth my time!” feeling when completing a dungeon. Just adding a 100% chance of getting a rare at the end of each run would suffice for now. At least then you know you have something definite to look forward at the end of the run, something which you can see and use immediately.

- TP is undeniably not optimal when it comes to anything. A lot of it is not inituitve. There are way too few advanced search options, which often leaves you having to filter through tens of pages to find that one thing you are looking for. A lot of people, me included, are experiencing an inability to use it at times or always. Sometimes, it just shuts down for me, and I have to restart my client to be able to use it.

- There are a lot of number tweaking that needs to be done, however, this is easy to fix so I won’t go into that.

Rukia.4802:

…

And I’m talking 1 shot mechanics, for example dungeon mobs/bosses. And some champions have the same. 1 shot kills shouldn’t exist, it’s poor design. 2 shots sure, because you have a chance of surviving and can heal up, giving you that chance to dodge the next hit etc. 1 shot is just hilariously lazy design.

I understand(!) how being oneshottet can be insanely frustrating.
However, if you pay attention to the animation of the mob that oneshots you, you´re likely to see a pattern in the animation giving you a warning of incoming burst damage. Of course there´s a learning curve for that and it´s not a thing I claim to master.
However, not being willing to learn how this game works, does not make it hilariously lazy game design, just lazy gaming.
If you continuesly die this way, you obviously need to change some tactics. That will serve you better than blaming the game for not playing your way.

Alice.8694:

Geemo.6018:

Major Flaws:
1. Holy Trinity removal has created mindless zergs

It’s only mindless if you don’t know how to play. Learn.

2. Professions are too normalized causing them to not have enough distinction. This is mainly due to traits being carbon copies from one profession to the next.

Having played a thief to 80 and a ranger to 40 I can happily state that between these two potentially similar classes there is little to no bleed-through of mechanics.

3. You get all of the main attack abilities that your character will ever have by the time your level 5 causing you to become very bored of them real quick on your way to 80..

I find new and interesting ways to link my skills together even now. If you dislike using the same moves repeatedly… I hope you intend to disregard almost every other game with combat ever… Except maybe bayonetta.

I can see you’re a Gw2 fanboy so you will defend this game blindly. I’m not the only one who says the game play is a zerg fest. There are literally thousands of post mentioning the exact same thing. Traits are the same for all professions period. The professions are very normalized, which, brings great balance in pvp, but also, brings the feeling of deja vu for all professions…

Rukia.4802:

muthax.4720:

Rukia.4802:

muthax.4720:

Rukia.4802:

muthax.4720:

Rukia.4802:

Clearly the fact that I’ve been able to survive at least 2, maybe 3 hits before dying in other games has made me incredibly bias in Guild Wars 2. Yes.

I like your signature. Have you actually tried moving, evading, switching weapons, porting in and out? You know, playing your class properly. As I thief, if I don’t do those things, I get 2 shotted. That’s why when I am tired I play a guardian…..

Because clearly I’m referring to regular mobs.

I am talking about champions and WvWvW
Your point again? If you don’t move and you stay toe to toe with a Champ, you gonna get obliterated. What’s wrong with that?

And I’m talking 1 shot mechanics, for example dungeon mobs/bosses. And some champions have the same. 1 shot kills shouldn’t exist, it’s poor design. 2 shots sure, because you have a chance of surviving and can heal up, giving you that chance to dodge the next hit etc. 1 shot is just hilariously lazy design.

All the mobs that I saw one-shotting sort of gave enough warning to try to evade (and all the times I got smashed I wasn’t paying enough attention). People really have to learn how to play this game (including me of course)

I don’t disagree with you, I can obviously run a boss multiple times and learn his skill queue’s but are you saying 1 shot mechanics are ok? Because I disagree, and think they are lazy horrible design. I simply don’t find it fun when I go down in 1 hit.

Eh eh well you could roll a guardian, at least you will go down in 2 hits, with luck 3

Geemo.6018:

Alice.8694:

Geemo.6018:

Major Flaws:
1. Holy Trinity removal has created mindless zergs

It’s only mindless if you don’t know how to play. Learn.

2. Professions are too normalized causing them to not have enough distinction. This is mainly due to traits being carbon copies from one profession to the next.

Having played a thief to 80 and a ranger to 40 I can happily state that between these two potentially similar classes there is little to no bleed-through of mechanics.

3. You get all of the main attack abilities that your character will ever have by the time your level 5 causing you to become very bored of them real quick on your way to 80..

I find new and interesting ways to link my skills together even now. If you dislike using the same moves repeatedly… I hope you intend to disregard almost every other game with combat ever… Except maybe bayonetta.

I can see you’re a Gw2 fanboy so you will defend this game blindly. I’m not the only one who says the game play is a zerg fest. There are literally thousands of post mentioning the exact same thing. Traits are the same for all professions period. The professions are very normalized, which, brings great balance in pvp, but also, brings the feeling of deja vu for all professions…

Posting badly articulated PERSONAL opinions and then calling fanbois anyone who disagree.

Priceless.

Geemo.6018:

Alice.8694:

Geemo.6018:

Major Flaws:
1. Holy Trinity removal has created mindless zergs

It’s only mindless if you don’t know how to play. Learn.

2. Professions are too normalized causing them to not have enough distinction. This is mainly due to traits being carbon copies from one profession to the next.

Having played a thief to 80 and a ranger to 40 I can happily state that between these two potentially similar classes there is little to no bleed-through of mechanics.

3. You get all of the main attack abilities that your character will ever have by the time your level 5 causing you to become very bored of them real quick on your way to 80..

I find new and interesting ways to link my skills together even now. If you dislike using the same moves repeatedly… I hope you intend to disregard almost every other game with combat ever… Except maybe bayonetta.

I can see you’re a Gw2 fanboy so you will defend this game blindly. I’m not the only one who says the game play is a zerg fest. There are literally thousands of post mentioning the exact same thing. Traits are the same for all professions period. The professions are very normalized, which, brings great balance in pvp, but also, brings the feeling of deja vu for all professions…

Two sentences in and we have an ad hominem and an appeal to the majority… Can you not make this discussion turn into me pointing out that dismissing me through fallacies makes you look silly?

Many people thought the atkins diet worked, Many people think homoeopathy works, Many people still think pluto is a planet…

What have we learned… Many people can easily be wrong.

Alice.8694:

Deith.7596:

Alice.8694:

Guild Wars 2 is bold enough to present you with enough content from release. Most mmorpgs, including WoW did not do this. It took several weeks before WoW added maraudon, a few months before they added dire maul and the first raid wasn’t seen for a long time after release.

Another genius sentence is “well, GW2 isn’t designed as gear-grinder” because the /map chat is full of one thing “CoF explo speed run” and you can’t tell me they farm this path for fun because amount of players running in CoF gear is growing every day.

Sorry but no one promised you there wouldn’t be gear grind. Infact they clearly stated the best LOOKING items would be very difficult to achieve.

What they did promise is that attaining the highest stat gear would be relatively easy. Which is it. Either you are misinformed or you like to beat on strawmen. Ignorance or dishonesty, you choose?

The only best looking item that’s very difficult to achieve is legendary 2h sword, everything else looks like poo except for the CoF gear, but it’s a faceroll to get it and even a total ignorant can do it.

Anyhow current dungeon reward system – giggle – is fun untill you finally clear the explo path, after that there is no reason to go there again and kill the boss again. Once you finally get the “personal first kill” there is nothing to explore anymore. For example Claw of Jormag, the first time I stumbled uppon him I was amazed of how awesome the fight was, then when he died and I looted chest and got 2silver, first thought was – well, I’m not gonna waste my time on doing it again, I already saw what this has to offer. I’m pretty sure I’m not alone in this.

Alice.8694:

Many people thought the atkins diet worked, Many people think homoeopathy works, Many people still think pluto is a planet…

PLUTO WILL ALWAYS BE A PLANET DANGIT! In my day there were nine planets and there will ALWAYS be nine planets!

Now git off mah lawn! [waves cane]

What I blame is a kind of playing mindset, which was arguably introduced in the WoW era, that consists basically in the application of the FPS/Arcade gaming methodology to the MMORPG field. In this sense, everything related to immersion, lore, RP, complex player interaction, intelectual challenge and, in general, anything related to the use of imagination is disregarded. The only thing that actually matters, as in any good arcade, is to achieve maximum XP in minimum time.

MMORPGs were not designed with that philosophy in mind. The very acronym gives you a hint of what is this about: Massive Multiplayer Online -Role Playing- Game.

I’ve been in the MMORPG scene for a long time and I can say that there was a before-and-after WoW. The appealing point of WoW was that, no matter you were mentally handicapped or a chimp, you could be be considered a good player as long as you could smash the rotations and memorize the scripted fights. It supposed a massive dumbing-down and linearization from previous MMORPGs. This is, on the other hand, a big reason for its success as the MMORPG genre was opened to the “lower-common-denominator” type of players. With WoW came as well the glorification of macros and add-ons that are not less than permitted cheating.

The consecuence is that we have a pool of players that cannot conceive another way of playing. Even worst, many of them believe they are skilled players which, of course, they are not.

Blizzard played its cards really well, focusing on game addiction (the eternal treadmill for better gear) as the main motivation for playing.

Besides the addiction argument, I freak out at these people as I don’t understand why they play MMORPGs when they could be playing Pac-Man and get the same feelings.

Anyway, this is my opinion and, after all, this is a free world. My sincerest suggestion is that:

- If you want a linear, gear based progression game, you can find a lot of WoW clones in the market. There are a lot of Diablo clones as well that focus on the gear grind and stats based progression.

- For the rest of us (and I assure you we are legion), that are more interested in the immersion and open-world aspects, we have a new home here.

sorry but the real world numbers suggest that your legion is actually a minority.

Bloody.8769:

sorry but the real world numbers suggest that your legion is actually a minority.

Ehr, what real world numbers? The millions that are leaving WoW because they can’t stand it any more? Look, this is a game for people who think WoW is boring. That’s why wowkiddies don’t seem to wrap their head around it

Bloody.8769:

sorry but the real world numbers suggest that your legion is actually a minority.

I completely assure you, my majority is greater than your majority based on the accurate data I haven’t and probably can’t present you. Therefore your opinion matters less than mine.

See I can do this too.

sigh really, you guys want to argue numbers? ok GW1 , total copies sold according to ANet. 6 odd million. Is that your Legion, or maybe you want to go with say LOTR online ?

WoW. Highest Sub total 12 million. That is Subs , Paying Subs. Not even the sales and not even counting the Asia market. Those millions that WoW has lost , well it is a case of they have lost more than Anet has ever sold. So go ahead and defend that .

no Alice, go back to your Wonderland because even Anet is not backing you up at all. And those WoWKiddies like you like to call them Muthax, their money is as good as yours.

Bloody.8769:

sigh really, you guys want to argue numbers? ok GW1 , total copies sold according to ANet. 6 odd million. Is that your Legion, or maybe you want to go with say LOTR online ?

WoW. Highest Sub total 12 million. That is Subs , Paying Subs. Not even the sales and not even counting the Asia market. Those millions that WoW has lost , well it is a case of they have lost more than Anet has ever sold. So go ahead and defend that .

None of these figures pertain to what the previous poster was talking about… Specific game mechanics and the immersion of MMORPGS. You’ll find that the Daedalus project, easy to search for in google… Top hit. Found that the number of people who wanted immersion in WoW vastly outnumbered those who wanted the game solely for raiding.

Bloody.8769:

sigh really, you guys want to argue numbers? ok GW1 , total copies sold according to ANet. 6 odd million. Is that your Legion, or maybe you want to go with say LOTR online ?

WoW. Highest Sub total 12 million. That is Subs , Paying Subs. Not even the sales and not even counting the Asia market. Those millions that WoW has lost , well it is a case of they have lost more than Anet has ever sold. So go ahead and defend that .

no Alice, go back to your Wonderland because even Anet is not backing you up at all. And those WoWKiddies like you like to call them Muthax, their money is as good as yours.

LOL 12 millions, 7-9 of which were (and mostly are today) Chinese, that buy HOURS not boxes and no monthly fee. Also, who cares?? Why you people behave like sheep? Justin Bieber sells millions of records, but he is still mediocre anyway.

Really, if you have to come here trolling and being a wow fanboy, just go back to something you enjoy

So what you’re saying that every bit of flaws in GW2 is WOW’s fault, OP? That is bull. I’m pretty sure flaws in a game are the developers’ fault.
Dynamic Events are the crowning features of GW2. They boasted about how every play-through the same zone will be different, but I’ve repeated certain events (in the same play session) like 7 to 10 times before leaving the zone. They boasted about branching events, but the events only progress down a single path.
I remember in an interview, they said there would be events in explorer mode dungeons that actually changes the experience. I completed 2 dungeons thoroughly, but I don’t see any events that changes the dungeon experience. What I see, though, is dungeons that are rushed, especially honor of the waves: the bugs in there are hilarious (jellyfishes stuck on land, mobs going through walls)
GW2 is a good game. What is disappointing is that it could have been an awesome game.

Not everyone played wow.
It might be a shock but some individuals complaining have actually never touched wow.

Aedus.5973:

So what you’re saying that every bit of flaws in GW2 is WOW’s fault, OP? That is bull. I’m pretty sure flaws in a game are the developers’ fault.
Dynamic Events are the crowning features of GW2. They boasted about how every play-through the same zone will be different, but I’ve repeated certain events (in the same play session) like 7 to 10 times before leaving the zone. They boasted about branching events, but the events only progress down a single path.
I remember in an interview, they said there would be events in explorer mode dungeons that actually changes the experience. I completed 2 dungeons thoroughly, but I don’t see any events that changes the dungeon experience. What I see, though, is dungeons that are rushed, especially honor of the waves: the bugs in there are hilarious (jellyfishes stuck on land, mobs going through walls)

No… That is not what I said… I apologies if you misunderstood me. I thought I was fairly clear in what I said. But i’ll try reiterate for you…
There is a vast difference between discovering bugged content, a legitimate concern for any game. And complaining that the games main features are not going to be successful because they aren’t like WoW.

The explorer mode for each dungeon does indeed change the experience of the dungeon. They have entirely different bosses, different mechanics and different stories.

I do not recall them mentioning branching dynamic events. However they did mention branching story lines and for the most part they do actually branch outward. Though the branches are fleeting and not as permanent as we might have hoped. And reconvene together as you reach the final act.

Most of the issues with the lack of events is due to them being balanced weakly. The events act like a pendulum swaying from side to side. However presently most events in zones outside of Orr are too easy. And therefore the pendulum never swings due to players always dominating the enemy force. This is a balancing issue, these things happen and they have said they are working on them in other threads.

Since when quality=quantity?

WoW, by the reasons stated above, is the McDonalds of MMORPGS, the Justin Bieber of MMORPGs. What is better, a plastic hamburger or a home-made steak? What is better, Miles Davis or the Bieber’s scorn? You really think Justin Bieber is better than Miles Davis because the former sells more CDs?

Listen, I’m not going to enter in the numbers discussion because:

- It’s pretty childish. And, by the things you say and the way you state your reasons, I assume you’re a really young fella.

- I don’t give a skritt’s heck whether game A sells X million and game B sells Y million. Suffice to say that -after so many years of mediocre, shallow, linear, treadmill based WoW clones- we have a feature-rich game that goes back to the MMORPG roots. Allelujah!

About the “paying subscribers” thingy, allow me to lmao. Did you know for example that the money Blizzard collects from subscriptions income goes solely to the investors and not to in-game content? Research, research my friend…

The subscription based model, excluding the one that goes accompanied by month-by-month updates, has been the biggest scam in gaming history.

Tusuri.3178:

What I blame is a kind of playing mindset, which was arguably introduced in the WoW era, that consists basically in the application of the FPS/Arcade gaming methodology to the MMORPG field. In this sense, everything related to immersion, lore, RP, complex player interaction, intelectual challenge and, in general, anything related to the use of imagination is disregarded. The only thing that actually matters, as in any good arcade, is to achieve maximum XP in minimum time.

MMORPGs were not designed with that philosophy in mind. The very acronym gives you a hint of what is this about: Massive Multiplayer Online -Role Playing- Game.

I’ve been in the MMORPG scene for a long time and I can say that there was a before-and-after WoW. The appealing point of WoW was that, no matter you were mentally handicapped or a chimp, you could be be considered a good player as long as you could smash the rotations and memorize the scripted fights. It supposed a massive dumbing-down and linearization from previous MMORPGs. This is, on the other hand, a big reason for its success as the MMORPG genre was opened to the “lower-common-denominator” type of players. With WoW came as well the glorification of macros and add-ons that are not less than permitted cheating.

The consecuence is that we have a pool of players that cannot conceive another way of playing. Even worst, many of them believe they are skilled players which, of course, they are not.

Blizzard played its cards really well, focusing on game addiction (the eternal treadmill for better gear) as the main motivation for playing.

Besides the addiction argument, I freak out at these people as I don’t understand why they play MMORPGs when they could be playing Pac-Man and get the same feelings.

Anyway, this is my opinion and, after all, this is a free world. My sincerest suggestion is that:

- If you want a linear, gear based progression game, you can find a lot of WoW clones in the market. There are a lot of Diablo clones as well that focus on the gear grind and stats based progression.

- For the rest of us (and I assure you we are legion), that are more interested in the immersion and open-world aspects, we have a new home here.

You make some good points, but I just can’t take you seriously when you reduce millions of fellow gamers who happen to enjoy different aspects of the MMORPG genre to mindless zombies. I could do the exact same thing about GW2 players, but it would add nothing to the discussion.

Yet another pointless thread seeking to troll by using the ever so popular “if you are complaining you must be a wow player” card.

Perhaps the complaints are there because they are valid concerns?

Psilocin.1435:

Tusuri.3178:

What I blame is a kind of playing mindset, which was arguably introduced in the WoW era, that consists basically in the application of the FPS/Arcade gaming methodology to the MMORPG field. In this sense, everything related to immersion, lore, RP, complex player interaction, intelectual challenge and, in general, anything related to the use of imagination is disregarded. The only thing that actually matters, as in any good arcade, is to achieve maximum XP in minimum time.

MMORPGs were not designed with that philosophy in mind. The very acronym gives you a hint of what is this about: Massive Multiplayer Online -Role Playing- Game.

I’ve been in the MMORPG scene for a long time and I can say that there was a before-and-after WoW. The appealing point of WoW was that, no matter you were mentally handicapped or a chimp, you could be be considered a good player as long as you could smash the rotations and memorize the scripted fights. It supposed a massive dumbing-down and linearization from previous MMORPGs. This is, on the other hand, a big reason for its success as the MMORPG genre was opened to the “lower-common-denominator” type of players. With WoW came as well the glorification of macros and add-ons that are not less than permitted cheating.

The consecuence is that we have a pool of players that cannot conceive another way of playing. Even worst, many of them believe they are skilled players which, of course, they are not.

Blizzard played its cards really well, focusing on game addiction (the eternal treadmill for better gear) as the main motivation for playing.

Besides the addiction argument, I freak out at these people as I don’t understand why they play MMORPGs when they could be playing Pac-Man and get the same feelings.

Anyway, this is my opinion and, after all, this is a free world. My sincerest suggestion is that:

- If you want a linear, gear based progression game, you can find a lot of WoW clones in the market. There are a lot of Diablo clones as well that focus on the gear grind and stats based progression.

- For the rest of us (and I assure you we are legion), that are more interested in the immersion and open-world aspects, we have a new home here.

You make some good points, but I just can’t take you seriously when you reduce millions of fellow gamers who happen to enjoy different aspects of the MMORPG genre to mindless zombies. I could do the exact same thing about GW2 players, but it would add nothing to the discussion.

How about rats in a box?

WoW’s mechanics are so brutally dependant on skinner’s box. That it is borderline disturbing.

GW2 needs to turn it around and do it in a hurry if they are going to retain their player base. Its starting to look like previous flopped MMO’s and people are becoming bored and disgruntled quickly.

Don’t give me the garbage “You should have enjoyed the game and played slower…”

Where do people get off telling other people how to play? Some people play for end game and some people play more casual. You cant force a community to play casual. You have to plan for all types of play styles and if it took another year of development and a subscription fee….I would have paid it and waited.

Either way…. IMO…the biggest test for the development team isn’t year 1 or year 5 etc… its the first 2-3 months of release. They have done pretty well with server issues but pretty horrible at testing end tier content (60+), class balance, and botting to name a few….

Alice.8694:

No… That is not what I said… I apologies if you misunderstood me. I thought I was fairly clear in what I said. But i’ll try reiterate for you…
There is a vast difference between discovering bugged content, a legitimate concern for any game. And complaining that the games main features are not going to be successful because they aren’t like WoW.

The explorer mode for each dungeon does indeed change the experience of the dungeon. They have entirely different bosses, different mechanics and different stories.

I do not recall them mentioning branching dynamic events. However they did mention branching story lines and for the most part they do actually branch outward. Though the branches are fleeting and not as permanent as we might have hoped. And reconvene together as you reach the final act.

Most of the issues with the lack of events is due to them being balanced weakly. The events act like a pendulum swaying from side to side. However presently most events in zones outside of Orr are too easy. And therefore the pendulum never swings due to players always dominating the enemy force. This is a balancing issue, these things happen and they have said they are working on them in other threads.

They did promise branching events in multiple interviews. And I am not talking about explorer mode dungeon paths; I am talking about them promising DEs INSIDE DUNGEONS that will change the dungeon experience but never implementing them (Colin said this in an interview with the person who did MMO reports).

Alice.8694:

How about rats in a box?

WoW’s mechanics are so brutally dependant on skinner’s box. That it is borderline disturbing.

GW2’s PvP is so poorly implemented that there is no element of true player skill or tactics involved.

See, a horrible generalization that is false. Just because you believe something doesn’t make it true.

That’s it for me though. If you want to reply with another worthless post without any structural or logical arguement to back it up, it’s simply pointless for anyone to continue this discussion. And here people are complaining about the “WoW-fanboys’” idiotic generalizations that aren’t even based on reality. Oh, the irony. I guess people are right. There’s no middle-ground on official forums. You either get stupid fanboys who make no attempt to keep a civilized discussion going, or you get idiotic haters who believe that anything that doesn’t cater to them is wrong.

Aedus.5973:

They did promise branching events in multiple interviews.

They also talked about how cookie cutter builds would be a thing of the past and all that “horizontal” progression garbage…

The cookie cutter build comment made me seriously nervous. It’s ridiculous…cookie cutter builds will always be around and to think otherwise is a red flag from any development team. Stop trying too hard to reinvent the wheel.