Guild Wars 2

This is appearantly a question GW2 devs ask themselves all the time, and i find this to be the most stupid question ever. Why does it have to be fun? Why can’t it be engaging in other ways?

A thriller movie isn’t fun, but you watch it anyway, a drama piece isn’t fun, why the hell do games have to be “FUN” all the time? Especially when we are looking at group play, connecting with people has to be engaging, rather then fun.

Now no this is not about SAB, cause i love that just for the nostalgics(and actually some challenge, who would have known), it’s about the general gameplay. I don’t have anything against fun side missions or just minigames, but atm the entire game is looking to be a joke, and it’s laughing at itself. When will we stop trying to “have fun” in games when games (the really good ones) aren’t about fun at all, they are about getting drawn into a world, they are about story, character, challenge.

If GW2 is trying to be an adult game, wich the nostalgic super adventure box and the casual feel suggests, why is it still treating us like children? The story is so dull it doesn’t get emotion out of a little kid, let alone a grown man, but i guess it’s fun, the dungeons are boring and don’t have any interesting mechanics. Nothing about the main mechanics can be grindy so instead of inserting the grind in challenging stuff that would actually make it worth doing, it’s inserted in the most dull and boring activities of them all. The general feel of being a guild, planning things to do and working together, is gone, there is absolutely nothing to do with your guild and when they do add it they let it last for 15 minutes, most of wich is searching for a wandering npc, wich is boring.

They say gw2 is catering to an audience wich hasn’t got much time to spare, but why is it then that the time we do have to spare is filled with tasks that, if i would let my cat randomly walk over my keyboard while cooking dinner, would still complete?
MMO’s should support getting together with your buddies and doing cool and challenging stuff. Now i don’t have allot of time to spare, and when i do log on first of all i’d like to do stuff TOGETHER, but nothing in this game is remotely interesting enough to actually do with your guild. Every single thing can be breezed trough with a pug, who speedrun or rush things so it’s even more beneficial to do it with them.

Now don’t get me wrong, there is ALLOT to do, but it all feels so generic and boring. I want to be engaged into doing something with others, and it’s not the fun that engages people into coördinated group play (wich is mostly why i play mmo’s) it’s the feeling that you actually NEED EACHOTHER.

And that’s the big problem, we don’t need other people in this mmo, you can stick your head in the sand and just ignore the rest and still get the same results.
The only thing my guild actually gets together for are the guild missions, wich lasts for about 15 minutes each, that’s just sad…

Now before everyone starts to spit fire, i want to enjoy my time ingame aswell, but that’s not what you achieve with making everything fun. The real reason people communicate and form groups is because working together to make something happen feels much better then working alone to do the same thing. It’s the reason this mmo-genre exists, and tbh, gw2 is starting to feel more and more like just a single player with bad mechanics, and some steam achievements for every 2 things you do ingame…

I loved gw1 btw, and i think it’s real sad that from a hub game with only interaction in cities to an open world game, this game has become less social. I wonder how that’s even possible.

Sounds like you’re not having fun.

I agree that there’s a whole lot less to do in this game that’s “challenging”. Higher level fractals are, and some of the dungeon paths are. Do you notice what happens when you make a dungeon path even harder? People tend to do it less.

Some people want to be challenged, but I don’t think most people do. I think most people play games to blow off steam. I like challenge too, but in small doses, when my head is into it. I don’t like constant challenge.

I think that’s one thing I like about the game. I don’t have to keep a raid schedule. I can just sorta log on, bounce around a bit, do a couple of real life chores, bounce around a bit more. I’m not going to worry to much about stuff.

And when I have a block of time, I do fractals, or help guildies with dungeons.

I don’t personally find the dungeons fun anyway, but you know, the dungeons people ran were always the easiest ones. What do you think is run more often CoF path 1 or the new Ascalonian Catacombs?

I think that a balance needs to be struck between harder content and easier content. As of now, that balance doesn’t exist, but I believe it will. I believe over time there’ll be more hard things for people to do.

Right now, however, the game seems to favor the more casual player. For plenty of people out there, the dungeons are just too hard.

Games are supposed to be “fun” and you are supposed to have fun while playing games.

I cant understnad people that want to substitute everything they are supposed to experience in life with ingame feelings and experiences.
Some people wants challenge so they run marathon or climb a mountain, some people wants a good story so they read a book or even better, visit a tavern. Some people wants to be important and respected, some wants to be heroes and some wants all that while sitting in chair.

Vayne.8563:

Sounds like you’re not having fun.

I agree that there’s a whole lot less to do in this game that’s “challenging”. Higher level fractals are, and some of the dungeon paths are. Do you notice what happens when you make a dungeon path even harder? People tend to do it less.

Some people want to be challenged, but I don’t think most people do. I think most people play games to blow off steam. I like challenge too, but in small doses, when my head is into it. I don’t like constant challenge.

I think that’s one thing I like about the game. I don’t have to keep a raid schedule. I can just sorta log on, bounce around a bit, do a couple of real life chores, bounce around a bit more. I’m not going to worry to much about stuff.

And when I have a block of time, I do fractals, or help guildies with dungeons.

I don’t personally find the dungeons fun anyway, but you know, the dungeons people ran were always the easiest ones. What do you think is run more often CoF path 1 or the new Ascalonian Catacombs?

I think that a balance needs to be struck between harder content and easier content. As of now, that balance doesn’t exist, but I believe it will. I believe over time there’ll be more hard things for people to do.

Right now, however, the game seems to favor the more casual player. For plenty of people out there, the dungeons are just too hard.

It’s not all about challenge.
I agree that sometimes you just want to blow off steam, but even then, there is nothing to actually do it with others. The only thing you can do is grind another day away on tasks that are boring, doing them together doesn’t actually make a difference so everyone stays in their own little bubble and you have an mmo where playing together is a chore… Entertainment is so much more then comedy, and games are so much more then “fun”. It would be like playing a soccer match like i used to do school where everyone is shooting at a different goal, 200 times in a row. It makes no sense at all. An mmo should let the players make the game, and just support them doing it together, no matter how many they are. GW2 was looking as a game where friends could do stuff together no matter what, when in reality, you can’t do anything together. The social aspect is important to anyone here, otherwise you wouldn’t play an mmo, and yet it’s not used for anything but communication. In the last few weeks i’ve played a few single player games while being on the Teamspeak of my GW2 guild, and it’s sad to say that the only difference in doing that or playing GW2 is that GW2 doesn’t have the quality a single player game has. I didn’t miss playing together because we actually don’t… An mmo can’t be as good as a single player game in mechanics or actual game, it has to make up for that is other stuff, but it doesn’t :/

Fox.3469:

The story is so dull it doesn’t get emotion out of a little kid, let alone a grown man.

If you are talking about dynamic events: The only thing that keeps me from getting emotional about them is the fact that some of them reset too quickly for me to feel that I had an impact on the zone.
But that’s only in certain areas with certain events, for example the Frozen Maw, The Destroyer, some escort events and some of the events where a bridge has been destroyed.

If you are talking about renowned heart quests: I actually do get emotional with renowned hearts, because when I talk to the NPCs they first ask me to do certain things, but once I have done them they thank me and no longer need my aid. That also goes for the scouts that tell you where to go.They don’t need me to collect bearbutts or cactus apples anymore, because I have already helped them. That makes me emotional due to a sense of impact.

If you are talking about the personal story: I actually do get emotional during the personal story. I got quite attached to the characters that were present in my personal story. In fact I look back at them with rose tinted goggles sometimes.
Just reading the chapters in the my story panel makes me smile and laugh.

Perhaps you don’t enjoy the story, but I do. And I am sure a lot of other people do.

And overall I feel way more connected to the world in GWII than I have felt in any other game.

In my opinion…

The game is fun, but not for long. The replay-ability factor for most persistent areas is low. WvW is the same map and same zerg every single week. PvP is atrocious.

Tons of potential, which is why we see tons of activity after every patch, and why SAB was such a refreshing addition to the game, but not enough to make the game for long.

And, instead of adding new and better content, or fixing balance, or fixing bugs, we continue to see new currencies and new gear that can only be obtained by repeating the same things over and over and over again. I’m sorry, but that approach to keeping players interested just isn’t going to work forever.

/End my opinion

No MMO has ever:

• Produced enough content to satisfy those who play a lot
• Produced enough content hard enough for the really skilled
• Managed to keep player interest without mechanics like gear progression and daily quests
• Had at launch all the features that everyone wanted
• Produced stories that a large percentage of the players thought were “good” (heck, many MMO’s just have lore, and the only way players interact with the lore is by doing raids — this is hardly a story)

GW2 has a “serious” personal story, albeit with a happy ending. I cannot fault ANet for this, as I think a grim, gray ending would displease more people than it would please.

“And that’s the big problem, we don’t need other people in this mmo, you can stick your head in the sand and just ignore the rest and still get the same results.”

Not if the result you’re looking for is fun with others. There are things to do with others, it’s just that the game does not force you to do them. You have to want to, and you have to make some effort to get others involved. The only games that forced grouping were those with open world mobs so hard that a majority of classes couldn’t solo. Even in raid-included games, players are not forced to raid, they just have to if they want the best gear, and those things were/are harder to organize than a GW2 dungeon or a temple clear.

IndigoSundown.5419:

No MMO has ever:

• Produced enough content to satisfy those who play a lot
• Produced enough content hard enough for the really skilled
• Managed to keep player interest without mechanics like gear progression and daily quests
• Had at launch all the features that everyone wanted
• Produced stories that a large percentage of the players thought were “good” (heck, many MMO’s just have lore, and the only way players interact with the lore is by doing raids — this is hardly a story)

GW2 has a “serious” personal story, albeit with a happy ending. I cannot fault ANet for this, as I think a grim, gray ending would displease more people than it would please.

“And that’s the big problem, we don’t need other people in this mmo, you can stick your head in the sand and just ignore the rest and still get the same results.”

Not if the result you’re looking for is fun with others. There are things to do with others, it’s just that the game does not force you to do them. You have to want to, and you have to make some effort to get others involved. The only games that forced grouping were those with open world mobs so hard that a majority of classes couldn’t solo. Even in raid-included games, players are not forced to raid, they just have to if they want the best gear, and those things were/are harder to organize than a GW2 dungeon or a temple clear.

I don’t want forcing, i want decent content (wich dungeons are not) that can be done in group, nothing raid like, but at least enough to have something to do with your guild. Problem now is grouping up with people to do a dungeon or smth like that, is far less profitable then doing your own thing in the open world. There is no reward, in fact you are punished for grouping cause you could have done better in the open world. I’m not the guy who does things for rewards, but the only reason i find others to do dungeons is if they need the tokens. I’m in 3 guilds, 2 of over 100 members, and we struggle to even make one dungeon run happen, just because it’s bad mechanics, not fun and no rewards, now tell me plz how that suits an mmo?

Now to your other comments:

• Produced enough content to satisfy those who play a lot: i play 2 hours a day, i know people who play far less, we are BORED. It’s not the ammount of content, it’s the quality.

• Produced enough content hard enough for the really skilled: and GW1 with far less content could do this from the moment it opened till now, how come that game can and this one can’t?

• Managed to keep player interest without mechanics like gear progression and daily quests: again GW1 did…

• Had at launch all the features that everyone wanted: of course not, but i’ve never heard of an MMO where playing solo is more beneficial then grouping, not even at launch, have you?

• Produced stories that a large percentage of the players thought were “good”: i agree with this one, but again, i don’t play an mmo for the story, and this wouldn’t bother me if this was actually an mmo to begin with, but it’s not, it’s a glorified singleplayer.

The only thing i want is to log in and have something to do with my friends, wich before this patch was WvW, until that got totally screwed up and now is zerg vs zerg due to rewards, where again, grouping with 5 or 10 people (like a guild) only gets you killed.

This game rewards the antisocial tactics and then expects it’s players to be social. Players will always take the easy path, and if that easy path is antisocial you have a glorified singleplayer game like the one we ended up with here.

Just like you have different movies, you have different games. If I want to be engaged in a game, I play a single player story driven game, like The Walking Dead. If I want to play a fun game, I might play a game like Portal 2 or Botanicula. But when I just want to relax, I play Guild Wars 2. It sounds to me like you just need a break.

Kasama.8941:

Just like you have different movies, you have different games. If I want to be engaged in a game, I play a single player story driven game, like The Walking Dead. If I want to play a fun game, I might play a game like Portal 2 or Botanicula. But when I just want to relax, I play Guild Wars 2. It sounds to me like you just need a break.

I agree with your point! I guess OP just needs a break from all these!

To OP: I think the game is fun, and it’s because it has almost everything in an RPG that makes it fun (for me, anyways) and that includes choices, voice, combat, exploration, tasks, quests, story and etc.

I’d also like to add that Anet did a hell of a good job in making this game! (again, in my own opinion although there are some that share it with me)

Fun is subjectively true or false. To me sometimes its fun and sometimes I feel like I’m standing on the edge of what should be fun but cant find it.

The game still has lots of potential but I cant for the life of me figure what the direction is if any.

I still haven’t heard any argument why it’s ok for an MMO to be mainly singleplayer, and i’m only upset because i love the guildwars franchise as a whole.

I just want them to execute their original plans instead of making more single player stuff that makes this move from what it means to play an mmo. When we take raiding, the big team thing, out of Wow for example, there is still more stuff to do together then in GW2.

And this “together” thing is so extremely important. Why else play an mmo? I guess if you are so rusted into the genre this isn’t clear you need a break more then i do. I just expect a game wich calls itself an MMO to actually have good multiplayer content, that doesn’t mean it needs to be challenging, but it does mean that doing it together with a group of friends needs to be at least as rewarding as doing stuff alone.

One example: i’ve logged in about 7 times for bout 2 hours in the 2 weeks before SAB, i’ve actually seen 1 guildie being afk in lions arch in that time, for the rest i’ve been playing on my own, and the one group i joined was a pug cause guildies aren’t up for group content unless they need something from there, and i’m in a fairly large guild as main guild. So what does that say? There is no reason to group up with your guild or friends, anything you can do as a group you can do faster and better on your own or in a “speedrun” party. So grouping doesn’t actually happen anymore.

What do i want? If 10-15 people in my guild are online, i want there to be a “hey let’s do something together” instead of everyone minding his own thing. Not mandatory, but at least worth doing as much as playing solo. It isn’t atm. Playing solo is the most rewarding thing in the entire game, in pve, in wvw (cause zerging is playing solo) and pvp. (solo que will even get a different bracket now…) This game is focussing so much on being fun it has let go of being social.

And tbh, if you don’t want a social game, you’re in the wrong place, not me, cause this is supposed to be an mmo.

Cowrex.9564:

Kasama.8941:

Just like you have different movies, you have different games. If I want to be engaged in a game, I play a single player story driven game, like The Walking Dead. If I want to play a fun game, I might play a game like Portal 2 or Botanicula. But when I just want to relax, I play Guild Wars 2. It sounds to me like you just need a break.

I agree with your point! I guess OP just needs a break from all these!

To OP: I think the game is fun, and it’s because it has almost everything in an RPG that makes it fun (for me, anyways) and that includes choices, voice, combat, exploration, tasks, quests, story and etc.

I’d also like to add that Anet did a hell of a good job in making this game! (again, in my own opinion although there are some that share it with me)

This is where I’m at, I just don’t have fun with GW2 (possibly never did as it’s not really my kind of game) so I’m having a break. I’ve played 5 hours per day since launch and I think I’ve burnt myself out trying to make the game fun where I really don’t think it is (this is my first MMO).

For me, what makes this decision hard is all the hours I’ve invested in building my toons (getting skins…), having a break feels like the game has defeated me and I’ve wasted my time. I know in reality I got lots of game time but knowledge and feelings don’t always coincide. The best thing with single player RPGs is you can stop and pick up where you left off 12 months later without missing anything, but with an MMO that is always getting updated I feel like I HAVE to log in or I’ll miss out on something, especially seasonal events that are only on for a short while.

Maybe I’ll come back, but I’m having fun with non-mmo games more than ever so I’m not sure…

Fox.3469:

I still haven’t heard any argument why it’s ok for an MMO to be mainly singleplayer, and i’m only upset because i love the guildwars franchise as a whole.

I just want them to execute their original plans instead of making more single player stuff that makes this move from what it means to play an mmo. When we take raiding, the big team thing, out of Wow for example, there is still more stuff to do together then in GW2.

And this “together” thing is so extremely important. Why else play an mmo? I guess if you are so rusted into the genre this isn’t clear you need a break more then i do. I just expect a game wich calls itself an MMO to actually have good multiplayer content, that doesn’t mean it needs to be challenging, but it does mean that doing it together with a group of friends needs to be at least as rewarding as doing stuff alone.

One example: i’ve logged in about 7 times for bout 2 hours in the 2 weeks before SAB, i’ve actually seen 1 guildie being afk in lions arch in that time, for the rest i’ve been playing on my own, and the one group i joined was a pug cause guildies aren’t up for group content unless they need something from there, and i’m in a fairly large guild as main guild. So what does that say? There is no reason to group up with your guild or friends, anything you can do as a group you can do faster and better on your own or in a “speedrun” party. So grouping doesn’t actually happen anymore.

What do i want? If 10-15 people in my guild are online, i want there to be a “hey let’s do something together” instead of everyone minding his own thing. Not mandatory, but at least worth doing as much as playing solo. It isn’t atm. Playing solo is the most rewarding thing in the entire game, in pve, in wvw (cause zerging is playing solo) and pvp. (solo que will even get a different bracket now…) This game is focussing so much on being fun it has let go of being social.

And tbh, if you don’t want a social game, you’re in the wrong place, not me, cause this is supposed to be an mmo.

I think I just read that you need a new guild?

I look forward to evenings and weekends where I can log on with my guild and go do group content (we run storylines together, fractals, explorables, help each other level alts, take them through storymode dungeons.) Sometimes we even do dailies together! We certainly help each other finish monthlies together. We go out to WvW as a group.

We enjoy rewards, yes. That is not the sole motivation for the content we do in game.
We put playing together first. There is plenty of content for us to do grouped.

The game, socially, can be what you make it.

What did I miss?

It was fun for about 5 months.

It’s not mainly single player unless you want it to be. You can do everything with others if you want to.

It would have been simpler to say that player engagement means more than just player amusement. Engaging players can be done in more ways than just putting a smile on someones face for example. Games can and do cover the full variety of human emotion.

Fox.3469:

Vayne.8563:

Sounds like you’re not having fun.

I agree that there’s a whole lot less to do in this game that’s “challenging”. Higher level fractals are, and some of the dungeon paths are. Do you notice what happens when you make a dungeon path even harder? People tend to do it less.

Some people want to be challenged, but I don’t think most people do. I think most people play games to blow off steam. I like challenge too, but in small doses, when my head is into it. I don’t like constant challenge.

I think that’s one thing I like about the game. I don’t have to keep a raid schedule. I can just sorta log on, bounce around a bit, do a couple of real life chores, bounce around a bit more. I’m not going to worry to much about stuff.

And when I have a block of time, I do fractals, or help guildies with dungeons.

I don’t personally find the dungeons fun anyway, but you know, the dungeons people ran were always the easiest ones. What do you think is run more often CoF path 1 or the new Ascalonian Catacombs?

I think that a balance needs to be struck between harder content and easier content. As of now, that balance doesn’t exist, but I believe it will. I believe over time there’ll be more hard things for people to do.

Right now, however, the game seems to favor the more casual player. For plenty of people out there, the dungeons are just too hard.

It’s not all about challenge.
I agree that sometimes you just want to blow off steam, but even then, there is nothing to actually do it with others. The only thing you can do is grind another day away on tasks that are boring, doing them together doesn’t actually make a difference so everyone stays in their own little bubble and you have an mmo where playing together is a chore… Entertainment is so much more then comedy, and games are so much more then “fun”. It would be like playing a soccer match like i used to do school where everyone is shooting at a different goal, 200 times in a row. It makes no sense at all. An mmo should let the players make the game, and just support them doing it together, no matter how many they are. GW2 was looking as a game where friends could do stuff together no matter what, when in reality, you can’t do anything together. The social aspect is important to anyone here, otherwise you wouldn’t play an mmo, and yet it’s not used for anything but communication. In the last few weeks i’ve played a few single player games while being on the Teamspeak of my GW2 guild, and it’s sad to say that the only difference in doing that or playing GW2 is that GW2 doesn’t have the quality a single player game has. I didn’t miss playing together because we actually don’t… An mmo can’t be as good as a single player game in mechanics or actual game, it has to make up for that is other stuff, but it doesn’t :/

I don’t know. I joined a guild of like minded people who I love playing with. We’re all on the same page, usually on mumble, doing the same thing. Or different groups are.

This game is so much more fun with a friend. You farm faster, complete tasks faster, and sometimes, you run across a group event that’s actually challenging for two people. Hey it happens.

But if you’re randomly trying to play with strangers in the world, yeah that probably doesn’t work too well.

World PvE has been rewarding for me playing it as a duo. Having that much more DPS/boons/aggro division increases the sorts of risks we can take.

It’s a shame there are some anti-party mechanics in world PvE such renown hearts. I still wonder why they included those. They’re so counterintuitive to the dynamic world idea.

RebelYell.7132:

World PvE has been rewarding for me playing it as a duo. Having that much more DPS/boons/aggro division increases the sorts of risks we can take.

It’s a shame there are some anti-party mechanics in world PvE such renown hearts. I still wonder why they included those. They’re so counterintuitive to the dynamic world idea.

The included hearts specifically to slow people down, so they’d be where dynamic events spawn. That’s why you can’t do them faster…except sometimes you can.

There are hearts that interacting with an inanimate object spawns some sort of creature. If you activate that object, you can only do it once. Then you kill the creature. With two people doing it, you each activate it, so you get two kills instead of one, increasing the heart completion by about 30% time. It’s not as fast as other stuff, but it’s faster than soloing.

StormageddonBK.9842:

Cowrex.9564:

Kasama.8941:

Just like you have different movies, you have different games. If I want to be engaged in a game, I play a single player story driven game, like The Walking Dead. If I want to play a fun game, I might play a game like Portal 2 or Botanicula. But when I just want to relax, I play Guild Wars 2. It sounds to me like you just need a break.

I agree with your point! I guess OP just needs a break from all these!

To OP: I think the game is fun, and it’s because it has almost everything in an RPG that makes it fun (for me, anyways) and that includes choices, voice, combat, exploration, tasks, quests, story and etc.

I’d also like to add that Anet did a hell of a good job in making this game! (again, in my own opinion although there are some that share it with me)

This is where I’m at, I just don’t have fun with GW2 (possibly never did as it’s not really my kind of game) so I’m having a break. I’ve played 5 hours per day since launch and I think I’ve burnt myself out trying to make the game fun where I really don’t think it is (this is my first MMO).

For me, what makes this decision hard is all the hours I’ve invested in building my toons (getting skins…), having a break feels like the game has defeated me and I’ve wasted my time. I know in reality I got lots of game time but knowledge and feelings don’t always coincide. The best thing with single player RPGs is you can stop and pick up where you left off 12 months later without missing anything, but with an MMO that is always getting updated I feel like I HAVE to log in or I’ll miss out on something, especially seasonal events that are only on for a short while.

Maybe I’ll come back, but I’m having fun with non-mmo games more than ever so I’m not sure…

Ahhh I see where you’re going at Don’t worry though, GW2 is a unique MMO where you won’t get left out much even thought didn’t go online for months, compared to other MMOs which make you feel like you really missed a lot of things! Just to add some information, logging out for about a week in GW2 didn’t make me feel like I was left out and that’s because of how the system of GW2 works

About your last sentence, we’ll be seeing ya soon then and have fun with the non-mmo games (If you have Diablo 3, PM me)

I’m sorry but if a game is not about ‘fun’ to me it gets the uninstallation treatment. RL has enough monotony without games having it too. Games should be an escape not job 2.0. Thanks but no thanks, I’ll stick with fun games.

Vayne.8563:

RebelYell.7132:

World PvE has been rewarding for me playing it as a duo. Having that much more DPS/boons/aggro division increases the sorts of risks we can take.

It’s a shame there are some anti-party mechanics in world PvE such renown hearts. I still wonder why they included those. They’re so counterintuitive to the dynamic world idea.

The included hearts specifically to slow people down, so they’d be where dynamic events spawn. That’s why you can’t do them faster…except sometimes you can.

There are hearts that interacting with an inanimate object spawns some sort of creature. If you activate that object, you can only do it once. Then you kill the creature. With two people doing it, you each activate it, so you get two kills instead of one, increasing the heart completion by about 30% time. It’s not as fast as other stuff, but it’s faster than soloing.

Lazy design is lazy design. Same with the 15 different currencies. And balance issues. And, well, most of the game.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

RebelYell.7132:

World PvE has been rewarding for me playing it as a duo. Having that much more DPS/boons/aggro division increases the sorts of risks we can take.

It’s a shame there are some anti-party mechanics in world PvE such renown hearts. I still wonder why they included those. They’re so counterintuitive to the dynamic world idea.

The included hearts specifically to slow people down, so they’d be where dynamic events spawn. That’s why you can’t do them faster…except sometimes you can.

There are hearts that interacting with an inanimate object spawns some sort of creature. If you activate that object, you can only do it once. Then you kill the creature. With two people doing it, you each activate it, so you get two kills instead of one, increasing the heart completion by about 30% time. It’s not as fast as other stuff, but it’s faster than soloing.

Lazy design is lazy design. Same with the 15 different currencies. And balance issues. And, well, most of the game.

You can say the words lazy design over and over, but that’s not what the hearts were. See, they did the whole dynamic event thing, and they play tested it. And people would just run around and not find events and run onto the next area, because there was no reason for them to wait for events, or they didn’t realize they should stay around.

Adding the hearts wasn’t a lazy design decision. It was a design decision to keep people in an area till events spawned. Orr has no hearts at all, and originally the whole game was supposed to be that way.

I’m not sure, now that people are trained to look for events that any new areas introduced in expansions will have hearts at all.

And, believe it or not, there are people who like the hearts. It’s also for people who like to have more of a breadcrumb trail of where to go.

Don’t you see that putting in a band aid fix instead of fixing the core problem is the root of laziness? What you described is a clear example of being too lazy to make something better. You would think in the 5+ years of making this game, they could have done something better. I thought they didn’t want us to “kill 10 wolves or gather 5 plants”. FedEx quests are still FedEx quests, except the start and finish are in the same spot, and instead of taking to someone, it just pops up in your screen like your character is some clairvoyant that just happens to know someone needs 10 Orc pelts… Ya, that’s not lazy…

clay.7849:

Don’t you see that putting in a band aid fix instead of fixing the core problem is the root of laziness? What you described is a clear example of being too lazy to make something better. You would think in the 5+ years of making this game, they could have done something better. I thought they didn’t want us to “kill 10 wolves or gather 5 plants”. FedEx quests are still FedEx quests, except the start and finish are in the same spot, and instead of taking to someone, it just pops up in your screen like your character is some clairvoyant that just happens to know someone needs 10 Orc pelts… Ya, that’s not lazy…

And you refuse to see that better is in the eye of the beholder. What’s better to one person is not better to the other. I think you’ll find that my better and your better are completely different betters.

So you talk about lazy design. What if they designed something brilliant and I hated it, or you hated it. It’s just not as simple as you make it out to be. The hearts do PRECISELY what they were meant to do. You know the KISS principle, right? Keep it simple, stupid.

The reason a lot of designs fail is because they’re overly complicated. Anet found a problem in their system and they fixed it. It’s not lazy design just because you don’t like it.

the OP needs to examine his definition of “fun” . if all the things he enjoys about playing games are what he likes then he is indeed having fun. Or if he is so used to doing stuff in the game he doesnt enjoy he actually log’s in expecting and acceptuing he isnt going to have fun he needs to have a word with himself about finding a new passtime.

Games should NEVER be work and work cant ever be fun . The old Chinese proverb goes " find a job you enjoy doing and you never need to work another day in your life ""
Meaning the moment you enjoy doing something it ceases to be work and becomes “fun”

The opposite is true as well, which is something many MMO players seem to have lost sight of. That once playing a game stops being fun or if the game forces you to endure hours of non-fun tasks (regardless of the rewards) it ceases to be a GAME AND BECOMES a job or chore.

At which point for me i’m out the door onto the next game.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Don’t you see that putting in a band aid fix instead of fixing the core problem is the root of laziness? What you described is a clear example of being too lazy to make something better. You would think in the 5+ years of making this game, they could have done something better. I thought they didn’t want us to “kill 10 wolves or gather 5 plants”. FedEx quests are still FedEx quests, except the start and finish are in the same spot, and instead of taking to someone, it just pops up in your screen like your character is some clairvoyant that just happens to know someone needs 10 Orc pelts… Ya, that’s not lazy…

And you refuse to see that better is in the eye of the beholder. What’s better to one person is not better to the other. I think you’ll find that my better and your better are completely different betters.

So you talk about lazy design. What if they designed something brilliant and I hated it, or you hated it. It’s just not as simple as you make it out to be. The hearts do PRECISELY what they were meant to do. You know the KISS principle, right? Keep it simple, stupid.

The reason a lot of designs fail is because they’re overly complicated. Anet found a problem in their system and they fixed it. It’s not lazy design just because you don’t like it.

When you design something to go against the principles you founded the game on, because it’s an easy fix – that’s lazy. Not only that, it’s insulting to your customer base.

There’s nothing subjective about it. Just because you might like bad design doesn’t make it good. Just like if you like bad music it doesn’t make it good.

Vayne.8563:

And, believe it or not, there are people who like the hearts. It’s also for people who like to have more of a breadcrumb trail of where to go.

I think they are a clever twist on an RPG cliche. It’s a good compromise between wandering aimlessly and being directed by various NPCs to fetch this and kill that. A good portion of the time a DE triggers while I’m in the middle of “filling the heart” and by the time I finish the DE the heart is finished as well. Even if that doesn’t happen I haven’t found any that were particularly difficult to do, most of them come down to “kill a bunch of stuff in the area until the pigeon gives you a letter” and go to the next area.

I’d much rather do this than be sent back and forth between two areas several times doing fed-ex quests.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Don’t you see that putting in a band aid fix instead of fixing the core problem is the root of laziness? What you described is a clear example of being too lazy to make something better. You would think in the 5+ years of making this game, they could have done something better. I thought they didn’t want us to “kill 10 wolves or gather 5 plants”. FedEx quests are still FedEx quests, except the start and finish are in the same spot, and instead of taking to someone, it just pops up in your screen like your character is some clairvoyant that just happens to know someone needs 10 Orc pelts… Ya, that’s not lazy…

And you refuse to see that better is in the eye of the beholder. What’s better to one person is not better to the other. I think you’ll find that my better and your better are completely different betters.

So you talk about lazy design. What if they designed something brilliant and I hated it, or you hated it. It’s just not as simple as you make it out to be. The hearts do PRECISELY what they were meant to do. You know the KISS principle, right? Keep it simple, stupid.

The reason a lot of designs fail is because they’re overly complicated. Anet found a problem in their system and they fixed it. It’s not lazy design just because you don’t like it.

When you design something to go against the principles you founded the game on, because it’s an easy fix – that’s lazy. Not only that, it’s insulting to your customer base.

There’s nothing subjective about it. Just because you might like bad design doesn’t make it good. Just like if you like bad music it doesn’t make it good.

I don’t think Anet thinks they went against those principles. I think you do. That IS subjective.

ginzo.8792:

The opposite is true as well, which is something many MMO players seem to have lost sight of. That once playing a game stops being fun or if the game forces you to endure hours of non-fun tasks (regardless of the rewards) it ceases to be a GAME AND BECOMES a job or chore.

This is just a sort of training that games using the subscription model have been designed for, in order to maximize profit by presenting and ever-moving goal for the player to work for.

Raiding is fun and therefore I want to raid.

In order to raid I have to be max level. The process of going from 1-max is boring but raiding is fun so I have to reach max level.

At max level I need this gear to raid. The process of getting the gear is boring but raiding is fun so I have to get this gear.

To move up to the next tier of raids I need this improved gear. The process of getting the improved gear is boring but raiding is fun so I have to get this improved gear.

The level cap is increased and in order to raid I have to be max level. The process of going from oldmax-newmax is boring but raiding is fun so I have to reach the new max level.

Etc.

Focusing the player on the goal while drawing out the process keeps them occupied longer and makes more money. Because GW2 is not subscription based, there is less emphasis on the goal and more attention paid to the process. There are many more options for leveling toons because that’s what the game is about, not getting the process out of the way so you can start enjoying the game. But people used to the traditional MMO style don’t understand this alternate process and so they are not comfortable with it.

Instead of adapting the way they play to the game, they demand that the game adapts to the way they play.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Don’t you see that putting in a band aid fix instead of fixing the core problem is the root of laziness? What you described is a clear example of being too lazy to make something better. You would think in the 5+ years of making this game, they could have done something better. I thought they didn’t want us to “kill 10 wolves or gather 5 plants”. FedEx quests are still FedEx quests, except the start and finish are in the same spot, and instead of taking to someone, it just pops up in your screen like your character is some clairvoyant that just happens to know someone needs 10 Orc pelts… Ya, that’s not lazy…

And you refuse to see that better is in the eye of the beholder. What’s better to one person is not better to the other. I think you’ll find that my better and your better are completely different betters.

So you talk about lazy design. What if they designed something brilliant and I hated it, or you hated it. It’s just not as simple as you make it out to be. The hearts do PRECISELY what they were meant to do. You know the KISS principle, right? Keep it simple, stupid.

The reason a lot of designs fail is because they’re overly complicated. Anet found a problem in their system and they fixed it. It’s not lazy design just because you don’t like it.

When you design something to go against the principles you founded the game on, because it’s an easy fix – that’s lazy. Not only that, it’s insulting to your customer base.

There’s nothing subjective about it. Just because you might like bad design doesn’t make it good. Just like if you like bad music it doesn’t make it good.

I don’t think Anet thinks they went against those principles. I think you do. That IS subjective.

No, it’s objective. You just refuse to see it or admit it.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Don’t you see that putting in a band aid fix instead of fixing the core problem is the root of laziness? What you described is a clear example of being too lazy to make something better. You would think in the 5+ years of making this game, they could have done something better. I thought they didn’t want us to “kill 10 wolves or gather 5 plants”. FedEx quests are still FedEx quests, except the start and finish are in the same spot, and instead of taking to someone, it just pops up in your screen like your character is some clairvoyant that just happens to know someone needs 10 Orc pelts… Ya, that’s not lazy…

And you refuse to see that better is in the eye of the beholder. What’s better to one person is not better to the other. I think you’ll find that my better and your better are completely different betters.

So you talk about lazy design. What if they designed something brilliant and I hated it, or you hated it. It’s just not as simple as you make it out to be. The hearts do PRECISELY what they were meant to do. You know the KISS principle, right? Keep it simple, stupid.

The reason a lot of designs fail is because they’re overly complicated. Anet found a problem in their system and they fixed it. It’s not lazy design just because you don’t like it.

When you design something to go against the principles you founded the game on, because it’s an easy fix – that’s lazy. Not only that, it’s insulting to your customer base.

There’s nothing subjective about it. Just because you might like bad design doesn’t make it good. Just like if you like bad music it doesn’t make it good.

I don’t think Anet thinks they went against those principles. I think you do. That IS subjective.

No, it’s objective. You just refuse to see it or admit it.

So if you don’t like it, it is bad, regardless of how many others like it? Music is horrible examble to use for bad vs good. If someone enjoys a certain type of music it is good to them, even if you do not like it.
I think techno and heavy metal with the growling is bad… awful infact. But I know and understand that is just my taste… my subjective view on it. Nothing wrong with others loving it and enjoying it. Doesn’t make their taste bad… other than perhaps in my humble irrelevant view. Music and other artforms are about as subjective as anything gets.

It is unfortunate that you do not enjoy GW2, but your hate is misdirected. Just… take a break, enjoy something else. GW2 is for myself and many others a wonderful game. Sure it might not hold you for as long as other games did, but does it have to?

I got bored of GW2 too a while ago… guess what… I took a break, now I enjoy it again.
My guild is quite social and do various activities together… mapclears, dungeons, fractals, bounties etc.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Don’t you see that putting in a band aid fix instead of fixing the core problem is the root of laziness? What you described is a clear example of being too lazy to make something better. You would think in the 5+ years of making this game, they could have done something better. I thought they didn’t want us to “kill 10 wolves or gather 5 plants”. FedEx quests are still FedEx quests, except the start and finish are in the same spot, and instead of taking to someone, it just pops up in your screen like your character is some clairvoyant that just happens to know someone needs 10 Orc pelts… Ya, that’s not lazy…

And you refuse to see that better is in the eye of the beholder. What’s better to one person is not better to the other. I think you’ll find that my better and your better are completely different betters.

So you talk about lazy design. What if they designed something brilliant and I hated it, or you hated it. It’s just not as simple as you make it out to be. The hearts do PRECISELY what they were meant to do. You know the KISS principle, right? Keep it simple, stupid.

The reason a lot of designs fail is because they’re overly complicated. Anet found a problem in their system and they fixed it. It’s not lazy design just because you don’t like it.

When you design something to go against the principles you founded the game on, because it’s an easy fix – that’s lazy. Not only that, it’s insulting to your customer base.

There’s nothing subjective about it. Just because you might like bad design doesn’t make it good. Just like if you like bad music it doesn’t make it good.

I don’t think Anet thinks they went against those principles. I think you do. That IS subjective.

No, it’s objective. You just refuse to see it or admit it.

I’m surprised you can even spell objective. I’m saying I played Guild Wars 1 for five years, so I must have liked it. You don’t play a game for five years if you don’t like it..at least most people don’t.

But just because I see kittens in the armor of an old game, doesn’t mean I didn’t like it. And if you can’t see that objectively you’re not being objective.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Don’t you see that putting in a band aid fix instead of fixing the core problem is the root of laziness? What you described is a clear example of being too lazy to make something better. You would think in the 5+ years of making this game, they could have done something better. I thought they didn’t want us to “kill 10 wolves or gather 5 plants”. FedEx quests are still FedEx quests, except the start and finish are in the same spot, and instead of taking to someone, it just pops up in your screen like your character is some clairvoyant that just happens to know someone needs 10 Orc pelts… Ya, that’s not lazy…

And you refuse to see that better is in the eye of the beholder. What’s better to one person is not better to the other. I think you’ll find that my better and your better are completely different betters.

So you talk about lazy design. What if they designed something brilliant and I hated it, or you hated it. It’s just not as simple as you make it out to be. The hearts do PRECISELY what they were meant to do. You know the KISS principle, right? Keep it simple, stupid.

The reason a lot of designs fail is because they’re overly complicated. Anet found a problem in their system and they fixed it. It’s not lazy design just because you don’t like it.

When you design something to go against the principles you founded the game on, because it’s an easy fix – that’s lazy. Not only that, it’s insulting to your customer base.

There’s nothing subjective about it. Just because you might like bad design doesn’t make it good. Just like if you like bad music it doesn’t make it good.

I don’t think Anet thinks they went against those principles. I think you do. That IS subjective.

No, it’s objective. You just refuse to see it or admit it.

I’m surprised you can even spell objective. I’m saying I played Guild Wars 1 for five years, so I must have liked it. You don’t play a game for five years if you don’t like it..at least most people don’t.

But just because I see kittens in the armor of an old game, doesn’t mean I didn’t like it. And if you can’t see that objectively you’re not being objective.

Sorry, but I think there are fundamental things that make games good and bad, just like music. Saying you like it and that it is subjective tiptoes around that argument. Ultimately, that is what I seek to discuss. However, you always say your opinion is right, so I am just going to say that it isn’t until you would like to discuss things as to why the actual mechanics of a game may or may not be good.

For example, simply saying that gear progression is good because people like it, blindly ignores the fact that logically, it makes no sense. There is nothing you can say about a gear progression that is going to make it objectively be better other than because it is a cheap and lazy alternative to making content better.

So, just like you said you play devil’s advocate to all of the GW2 dissenters, I will continue to be the antithesis to anything you say.

Zeefa.3915:

So if you don’t like it, it is bad, regardless of how many others like it? Music is horrible examble to use for bad vs good. If someone enjoys a certain type of music it is good to them, even if you do not like it.

Nope, music is a perfect example. The reason I specifically chose music is because I know that many people think that music is subjective. When, in fact, there are many objective truths to what makes some music good and other music bad.

Please refrain from engaging in flame wars. Express your opinions in a civil and friendly way.

Thanks for your help!

I see what the OP is trying to say, and agree to an extent. An MMO should obviously be fun, but in order to be as engaging as possible it also needs to be deep. And, sometimes fun and being deep are mutually exclusive.

You need to be able to enjoy large portions of the game as high-energy fun, but there also needs to be a cadence of high-low activity and there are parts of the game that don’t need to be ‘fun’ in the way that Anet is trying to make them. It actually does harm to the game if everything is action-packed and extremely convenient.

6 months ago this game was fun, not Guildwars 1 fun, but it was casual fun.

Since then classes, dungeons, open world has been destroyed with nerfs and limitations on them, the heavy handed antics thrown at loot tables together with players ruining the economy has made the fun dwindle and die, not to mention everything new added is bound now and time gated or have to throw real money at it, with most higher stuff added that resembles the legendary grind thrown onto it..

SAB was a breath in the right direction but its only a “mini game” drop in the ocean, compared to the rest of the mistakes i’ve seen done to Guildwars 2..

Fun is the root of everything. The OP talks about things like immersion but if a MMO is not fun I’m not gonna get immersed in the world, I’m not gonna bond to my characters, I’m not going to care about the story, and so on. Tons of games had good stories but were ignored because as a game they weren’t really fun. The Xenogears and Xenosaga games in the late 90s-early 2000 are very good examples.

clay.7849:

Zeefa.3915:

So if you don’t like it, it is bad, regardless of how many others like it? Music is horrible examble to use for bad vs good. If someone enjoys a certain type of music it is good to them, even if you do not like it.

Nope, music is a perfect example. The reason I specifically chose music is because I know that many people think that music is subjective. When, in fact, there are many objective truths to what makes some music good and other music bad.

And some people know the music is bad and still enjoy it. Nickelback, for instance. I know it’s pretty bad but I enjoy listening to it sometimes. Then there’s my Genesis albums . . .

On topic?

Some people have fun different ways. Trying to figure out why they’re having fun is not “wasted effort”. Trying to cater to everyone at once . . . is.

Two lil soundbites which apply?

“You can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but never all of the people all of the time.”

“If you try to hold everything, you will hold nothing.”

I all for not being left behind by not playing for a while, but im also not in favor of there not being anything new to do after a while either. It would add more flavor to the game if once you left for 6 months, you could come back and have more goals, just like you did the entire game until you hit 80. But once you hit 80, it just stops.

@Tobias

That is true. But, does it constitute making a game around “bad” mechanics over good ones, especially if the band’s first CD was nearly flawless and their second was terrible?

Here are a couple “truths” that I think games should try to adhere to, and that GW2 simply ignores.

First, skill > time. While you shouldn’t make a game impossible to progress in, skill should allow you to progress faster than time. In GW2 this is almost the exact opposite. Nearly every mechanic in GW2 gates you behind time, not skill.

Second, gear treadmill. Yes, people like a gear treadmill, but it doesn’t make logical sense to have one. No, GW2 doesn’t have a real gear treadmill, but it doesn’t seem like it is off the table.

Combat. Combat should be engaging and promote strategy, tactics and cooperation. The combat in this game is really spam skills on recharge and other than some kiting, a self heal and dodging, you can progress through 95% of the content in this game with your auto attack.

So, yes, people may all like grinding, a great treadmill and watered down combat, but I hardly call that a good reason to cater to those people.

The truly sad part is that GW1 attacked these philosophical problems rather well. Not perfectly, but way better than in GW2. GW2 is a step back from GW1 and it’s not because it is different. It is because it is just a worse game with worse mechanics.

@Clay

Except that I don’t see gear progression, in and of itself, as bad design. I see content gating as bad design. Gear progression, handled properly is fine by me and always have been. There’s a difference, to me, between optional gear that makes you marginally more powerful and required gear that you need to enter an instance.

Anyway there’s a bit of inconsistency in some of what you say. For example, you claim that the game is easy because you can get through the game using just the 1 skill. Then you claim that there’s gear grind in this game, because people need better gear. But if the game is that easy, arguably you shouldn’t not only need that better gear…you shouldn’t even want that better gear. It will only make the game easier.

So which is it? If the game is easy enough to beat in exotics, you don’t need ascended gear and there’s no problem. Or do you really need to grind gear, in which case you can’t play the game because it’s too hard without it?

Vayne.8563:

@Clay

Except that I don’t see gear progression, in and of itself, as bad design. I see content gating as bad design. Gear progression, handled properly is fine by me and always have been. There’s a difference, to me, between optional gear that makes you marginally more powerful and required gear that you need to enter an instance.

Anyway there’s a bit of inconsistency in some of what you say. For example, you claim that the game is easy because you can get through the game using just the 1 skill. Then you claim that there’s gear grind in this game, because people need better gear. But if the game is that easy, arguably you shouldn’t not only need that better gear…you shouldn’t even want that better gear. It will only make the game easier.

So which is it? If the game is easy enough to beat in exotics, you don’t need ascended gear and there’s no problem. Or do you really need to grind gear, in which case you can’t play the game because it’s too hard without it?

Gear Progression and content gating go hand in hand. If they don’t then there is even less reason for gear progression. Just because you think it works doesn’t mean there is an argument for it.

I honesty don’t know what point you’re trying to prove about the game being easy and gear grind. The game isn’t easy because of exotic gear, the game is easy because the combat system is garbage. There is no need for skills 2-5 and 7+. Not because of armor.

clay.7849:

The game isn’t easy because of exotic gear, the game is easy because the combat system is garbage. There is no need for skills 2-5 and 7+. Not because of armor.

Aside from the fact that this is completely wrong, it’s also the very essence of YOUR opinion stated again as fact. The combat system isn’t garbage. You don’t like the combat system. Can you see the difference between these statements?

There are plenty of uses for those skills in harder combat. There are uses for them when soloing champions and certainly in dungeons and fractals.

As I’ve already pointed out, in Guild Wars 1, if you have the right heroes with the right bills, something you could look up on PVX wiki, you didn’t need to attack at all, even in hard mode, anywhere in the world.

So that makes the Guild Wars 1 combat system even more garbage, by your logic, considering you didn’t need to use ANY skills.

No, seriously, play with just 1 and 6 and you can play the entire game from beginning to end. And, it is objectively bad because of that fact.

I have always said I didn’t like heroes. Having heroes is not the antithesis of good combat in GW1, it merely ruined the cooperative need on GW1.

clay.7849:

I have always said I didn’t like heroes. Having heroes is not the antithesis of good combat in GW1, it merely ruined the cooperative need on GW1.

Well, that’s part of our difference then, because heroes were in the game when I started Guild Wars 1. And there were often not enough players around to do some missions, so you had to use heroes. Later I joined a Guild, but with PVe only skills, much of the content was trivialized.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

I have always said I didn’t like heroes. Having heroes is not the antithesis of good combat in GW1, it merely ruined the cooperative need on GW1.

Well, that’s part of our difference then, because heroes were in the game when I started Guild Wars 1. And there were often not enough players around to do some missions, so you had to use heroes. Later I joined a Guild, but with PVe only skills, much of the content was trivialized.

Sorry to tell you, but you missed the best parts of GW1.

By EOTN a lot of people had left.