Guild Wars 2

Note to Mod : This is NOT a thread for the only sake of complaining, this is a legit question that, I believe, deserves to be discussed here, on the official forum, and it can become a constructive debate.

Let’s say it clearly. The deal was ; you buy the box, and then you don’t pay a monthly fee to play, but we will own an in-game store selling cosmetic items such as skins and minis for real money, just as we did in Guild Wars 1. We said ; deal.

The question of today is ; is this deal still fully respected? Let’s make our arguments constructively ; what can we buy with real money in Guild Wars 2 today?

Let’s say it directly, the fact is that, you can convert gems to gold, and therefore, you can buy gold with real money, although we have to admit that we have also an advantage ; we can convert gold to gems and therefore, buy things in the store for free ; but does it justify the opposite conversion? And is it really an advantage, at the current conversion price? I don’t believe so.

But let’s come back to our main problem ; you can buy gold with real money. Is gold cosmetic? What can you do with gold?

- With a few dozens of gold, you can easily use speed-leveling via crafting, getting a level 80 character in only a few hours.

- With a few thousands of gold, you can buy a Legendary Weapon via TP, and therefore you can easily get one without achieving anything else than being rich in real life.

- Ascended Gears, which are not fully released yet, will be required to spend a lot of gold (and therefore possibly, let’s remind it, dollars) to stuff your character to maximum power, and therefore isn’t that like selling “power”, although we still have to play somehow fractals to get the account bound ingredient?

To resume all this stuff, you can get a level 80 character and a legendary weapon in this game without killing a single mob. You will also be able to stuff your character faster than others via buying gold when Ascended Gears will be fully released. This seems like a complaining point of view, but this is truth, nobody who thinks a logical way can deny it.

So I ask it again ; is it still “cosmetic”? I used a lot of rhetoric questions in this post, but actually some of those are not so rhetoric… What do you think about all this stuff?

Time to debate!

Is a bought level 80 better than my hard-won level 80? It isn’t, so I don’t really mind. If someone wants to spend hundreds of dollars for a shortcut and some shiny pixels, it’s fine for me, as long as he does not have a stat-wise advantage over me.

Yes its still cosmetic because although he may have bought his way to 80 his stats still arnt any better and his skill is inferior for doing so .

Tosha Daydreamer.9251:

Is a bought level 80 better than my hard-won level 80? It isn’t, so I don’t really mind. If someone wants to spend hundreds of dollars for a shortcut and some shiny pixels, it’s fine for me, as long as he does not have a stat-wise advantage over me.

That is where Ascended Gears comes ; they represent power and you litterally need hundreds of gold to get them, while someone can get them much faster with real money. While you will be trying to get the needed gold, those people will be more powerful than you in areas like WvW. Isn’t that unfair?

Legendary weapons are, I have to admit, only skins. Yet, those are a main end-game goal for players ; is it really fair, to sell them this way? And is it really profitable for Arenanet, since crafting a Legendary Weapon was probably my long term goal and it became worthless to my eyes as soon as they started popping on the Trading Post?

This is an issue that plagues most modern MMOs, the line between Pay 2 Win and Free 2 Play is thin.

One example is Lord of the Rings Online; they introduced a cash shop along with their revamp of the game towards F2P in 2010, and that shop has gradually had its stock increased, from initially providing cosmetics, skins and minor items, such as potions and temporary buffs, it now provides much more than that, things which clearly give an advantage to other players, such as components in crafting legendary weapons that otherwise require massive amounts of time to obtain through normal means.

The problem is that there is no motive for the developers in these games, such as LOTRO, to develop content that is fun and enjoyable, for example there is a massive grind in the game to max out “Deeds”, similar to achievements, which in turn give you higher level traits, and one can purchase accelerators in the cash shop to alleviate the pain in this process of having to kill 360 cows in order to advance to the next Deed tier. So, the pressures from the top of the food chain also force the developers to create content which revolves around grinding; why develop challenging content and new game systems when you can simply release a dungeon that requires hundreds or thousands of tokens to get one piece of gear and then release a token accelerator in the shop?

More often than not, the vocal supporters of F2P, and the rest of us, end up having to spend more money in a supposedly “free” game then we would have in a subscription-based game. It’s the herd mentality, the Race to the Bottom; if one can obtain a powerful item in the cash shop, which requires months of grinding to get through normal gameplay, there is a pressure on the players who want to remain competitive when it comes to dungeons, raids, PvP or whatever to go to the cash shop aswell, so as to not lag behind.

F2P wouldn’t be attractive if it didn’t garner more revenue than P2P, with the result being that both the playerbase and developers suffer; the players end up spending more money to get past ever more grinds, and the developers are forced, both directly and indirectly, through push-and-pull means to develop grindy or lacklustre content and focus on how to incorporate new cash shop opportunities in every piece of content.

Guild Wars 2 risks following the same path, since it has a cash shop, but so far there has been no dramatic Pay 2 Win tendencies in the game; I dislike the gold-for-gems and vice-versa approach, and think it might become an economic problem in the future, as gem prices won’t ever go down to the levels of the launch period but will more likely continue to rise, as new cosmetics are released and new events and seasons bring more attractive skins, so those who buy and then sell their gems could amass lots of cash in, say, a few months time. On the other hand, if alternative ways of obtaining gold in a steady flow are introduced, similar to the dungeoneering changes, this won’t become a problem.

I think it’s too early to tell whether GW2 is moving towards P2W, so far it has been following the same model as GW1, with minor changes, so my hope is that they won’t allow short-sightedness to ruin their chances at long-term prosperity.

I agree with Eli, and everyone else who has replied.

SO FAR I don’t think the ability to convert gems into gold leads to a pay to win system because what you can buy isn’t any better than what you can get through playing the game, and as someone else pointed out someone who levels to 80 by crafting and then buys top of the line gear will actually be worse than someone who levelled up by playing because they won’t know how to use the character. (I’d also guess that relatively few people would go this route because generally what those types are looking for is bragging rights, and since hitting 80 and even getting max stat gear is relatively easy in this game it’s also less impressive.)

However I do think there is a risk that Anet could end up going the route of “free” to play games where you basically have to either pour hundreds of pounds/euros/dollars into the store or hundreds of thousands of hours into grinding to get anywhere. I know they said they won’t and I do believe they genuinely meant it when they launched this game, but give it time and those hundreds of dollars might start to look more tempting than making good quality content in return for people saying they enjoyed it.

On another note I do think the ability to convert gems to gold is affecting the in-game economy and pricing casual players out of the market for a lot of items. But I don’t expect Anet will try and change that and I’m not sure they could if they wanted to. If converting gems to gold wasn’t possible it’d be people with more free time to play and the willingness to spend it all farming who would have the advantage. They did try repeatedly to stop that in GW1 and it never really worked. So why would they bother when at least this time they’re being paid for other peoples greed?

well, if someone wants to craft their char to lvl 80 in 2 hours and pay for it… roflmao.

i was kinda hoping for a list of things in gemstore that are not cosmetic. i kinda dnt like tournament tickets. can you guys add to this list?

I’m fine with things as-is. It supports the future of this game when people spend real life money to take shortcuts. It’s quite expensive to buy ascended/legendary gear with only $->gems->gold

I don’t want something just handed to me though, so I choose to play the game for my in game items. I could just buy it all… but then what’s the point?

As far as ascended gear… the dev’s said they would be introducing more ways for you to be able to get these ascended gears. While I’m against another tier of gear (don’t see the point) it should remove some of the pain of getting them if you can get them by doing what you’re already just doing for fun (for me WvW would work just fine).

As long as that is proven true it’s all good. If it’s not… I’ll just go back on that I’ll just find another game to play (in the mean time I’ll go back to my previous one). I’ll have only have paid for the box and I’ll have enjoyed it while it lasted.

Keiran.1896:

Tosha Daydreamer.9251:

Is a bought level 80 better than my hard-won level 80? It isn’t, so I don’t really mind. If someone wants to spend hundreds of dollars for a shortcut and some shiny pixels, it’s fine for me, as long as he does not have a stat-wise advantage over me.

That is where Ascended Gears comes ; they represent power and you litterally need hundreds of gold to get them, while someone can get them much faster with real money. While you will be trying to get the needed gold, those people will be more powerful than you in areas like WvW. Isn’t that unfair?

Why don’t you stop talking about stuff you don’t know about?

The only ascended gear that’s out right now is backs and rings. Do you work for Anet? No? Then you have no idea how the next set of ascended gear will be obtained.

The only thing you can buy with gold to get a stat advantage is the ascended back. The rings are only from running level 10+ dailys, so only the backs can be obtained with gold. And they are not “hundreds of gold.” You can get one with as little as 17 gold. And if that’s too much for you then you still have an alternative. You can buy one with 1850 fractal relics.

I WISH you could buy power with gold. I have 50 gold sitting in my bank with nothing to do with it.

Eli Stormstrike.8637:

I think it’s too early to tell whether GW2 is moving towards P2W, so far it has been following the same model as GW1, with minor changes, so my hope is that they won’t allow short-sightedness to ruin their chances at long-term prosperity.

I think that GW2 was meant from the beginning to become different than GW1.

GW1 had a very simple strategy ; proposing a better deal than a monthly fee to get more popularity. Sacrifying some benefits per player to get more players.

Then GW2 came with, I think, a very different approach ; using GW1 popularity to get its players, proposing a worse deal than a monthly fee, and hiding it of course.
That way they started using the Gem Store to get as much money as they can from each player without fearing not having players, since they had at least GW1 players. Then the game became very popular and they definitly had no problem with the number of players. So, well, they decided to milk players until they reach our limits.

Currently, they are trying some RNG strategy in the Gem Store : putting boxes with not necessarily something useful inside, so that they can get a maximum of money from us. Obviously, and I think they know it, it won’t last more than 3 or 4 months… After people spend 50-100$ in boxes and get, months by months, all disappointed, selling items directly will become more profitable and I think they will.

Oh, well, you see, GW2 is different on every point from GW1 on this. I don’t know who from NCsoft or Arenanet was smart enough to develop this strategy but they did ; they directly exploited GW1 and their new popularity to build a safe spot without being afraid to lose too much players. I think that we can’t change much things in this case…

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

Why don’t you stop talking about stuff you don’t know about?

The only ascended gear that’s out right now is backs and rings. Do you work for Anet? No? Then you have no idea how the next set of ascended gear will be obtained.

The only thing you can buy with gold to get a stat advantage is the ascended back. The rings are only from running level 10+ dailys, so only the backs can be obtained with gold. And they are not “hundreds of gold.” You can get one with as little as 17 gold. And if that’s too much for you then you still have an alternative. You can buy one with 1850 fractal relics.

I WISH you could buy power with gold. I have 50 gold sitting in my bank with nothing to do with it.

As you say, the back is 17 gold but as I learnt to know Arenanet these last months, there will probably be enough pieces like this to reach one hundred gold.

And 1850 fractal relics, sorry, but I’m not sure I want to do 300 fractals to get one back piece. It’d be much faster to farm 17 gold, I think.

And, NO, you don’t wish you could buy power with gold… There would always be someone to buy more power than you. And if you can’t do anything with 50 gold, well give it to me I’m sure I’ll find some use for it…

Some people will tell you GW2 is pay 2 win, grindy and whatever is the current complaining excuse.
800 hours in, none of the bull running around here is true.
Game has quite a few bugs but that’s about it: there is no other major issue flowing in the game, the rest it’s just people with nothing to do and playign the forum crying game.

Red Falcon.8257:

Some people will tell you GW2 is pay 2 win, grindy and whatever is the current complaining excuse.
800 hours in, none of the bull running around here is true.
Game has quite a few bugs but that’s about it: there is no other major issue flowing in the game, the rest it’s just people with nothing to do and playign the forum crying game.

Did you just come to say this?

Become yes, it’s probably growing too grindy and P2W and this is what we are trying to determine here. Of course the 1-79 levels of the game are awesome and wonderful, otherwise we wouldn’t be so sticky to this game, but it seems badly handled in the end, and again, we are trying to discuss a flaw in the economic model.

There’s good points on both side of the argument here.

For me, personally, I see no foul play in letting real life money buy gems which allows one to buy gold.

Essentially people have two resources to purchase things with: real life money or time (I.e. making money in game instead of using real life money).

I can totally see how some wouldn’t like this feature, I just don’t share that feeling. I have little money to spare in real life but lots of time at the moment, so I enjoy spending more time instead of money. Time is a resource I have at the moment, money isn’t.

Shlamorel.8714:

There’s good points on both side of the argument here.

For me, personally, I see no foul play in letting real life money buy gems which allows one to buy gold.

Essentially people have two resources to purchase things with: real life money or time (I.e. making money in game instead of using real life money).

I can totally see how some wouldn’t like this feature, I just don’t share that feeling. I have little money to spare in real life but lots of time at the moment, so I enjoy spending more time instead of money. Time is a resource I have at the moment, money isn’t.

I would be of your same opinion, if this didn’t meant that they’re pushing gems selling in shady ways, like lowering drop rates.
And YES, this game is pay 2 win.
Certainly not in a heavy way like many korean MMOs; It may be ligh but it still is pay 2 win.

Keiran.1896:

- With a few dozens of gold, you can easily use speed-leveling via crafting, getting a level 80 character in only a few hours.

That’s not directly related to gems though, it’s gold. And a lvl 80 char made through crafting is not better than a lvl 80 char made through exploring or wvw(one can argue, it’s worse, because you lack the experience with the class), it’s just faster.

- With a few thousands of gold, you can buy a Legendary Weapon via TP, and therefore you can easily get one without achieving anything else than being rich in real life.

The current exchange rate puts 1g=$1. If smb is willing to spend $2800 on a skin, more power to them xD Legendaries are still a cosmetic item(and will always be) thus if smb were to spend gems for it, it doesn’t contradict the cosmetic statement. It also, again, doe snot make the buyer better, just lets him/her achieve smth faster.

- Ascended Gears, which are not fully released yet, will be required to spend a lot of gold (and therefore possibly, let’s remind it, dollars) to stuff your character to maximum power, and therefore isn’t that like selling “power”, although we still have to play somehow fractals to get the account bound ingredient?

How exactly do you know the future requirements for ascended gear? I can totally see ascended gear as karma items.

Keiran.1896:

As you say, the back is 17 gold but as I learnt to know Arenanet these last months, there will probably be enough pieces like this to reach one hundred gold.

And 1850 fractal relics, sorry, but I’m not sure I want to do 300 fractals to get one back piece. It’d be much faster to farm 17 gold, I think.

Because you work for anet right? Because otherwise you have no clue how future ascended items will be obtained.

And 1850 fractal relics, sorry, but I’m not sure I want to do 300 fractals to get one back piece. It’d be much faster to farm 17 gold, I think.

Here you go again, showing how you don’t know what you’re talking about.

1850 fractals is nowhere near 300 runs.

So far I’ve gotten

An exotic zerkers back (1350 relics)

A 20 slot bag (150 relics)

3 simple infusions (225 relics)

and I have 140 in my inventory.

That’s 1875 relics, enough for an ascended back, and I’ve run maybe 30 fractals. 1/10th of what you say.

If you don’t know what you’re talking about, don’t talk.

Keiran.1896:

Did you just come to say this?

Become yes, it’s probably growing too grindy and P2W and this is what we are trying to determine here. Of course the 1-79 levels of the game are awesome and wonderful, otherwise we wouldn’t be so sticky to this game, but it seems badly handled in the end, and again, we are trying to discuss a flaw in the economic model.

There is no grind nor P2W in GW2.
Again I have 800 hours in, never grinded and never needed to: if you force yourself to grind is your problem, but the game itself never forced me to “repat this or be locked out”.
And buying any amount of gems won’t make you any stronger than anyone else, so you’re not winning anything; you just get a full character faster than newcomers, if that’s winning anything for you then I’m pretty sorry for ya.

But hey whiners gonna whine and no amount of facts and logic can get their heads outta their wintersday gift box.

Fuz.5621:

Shlamorel.8714:

There’s good points on both side of the argument here.

For me, personally, I see no foul play in letting real life money buy gems which allows one to buy gold.

Essentially people have two resources to purchase things with: real life money or time (I.e. making money in game instead of using real life money).

I can totally see how some wouldn’t like this feature, I just don’t share that feeling. I have little money to spare in real life but lots of time at the moment, so I enjoy spending more time instead of money. Time is a resource I have at the moment, money isn’t.

I would be of your same opinion, if this didn’t meant that they’re pushing gems selling in shady ways, like lowering drop rates.
And YES, this game is pay 2 win.
Certainly not in a heavy way like many korean MMOs; It may be ligh but it still is pay 2 win.

Can you please tell all of us what you can buy with cash that you can’t obtain in game?
The problem is, is people think that paying cash to get something faster than grinding/farming for it is pay to win. This is absolutely not the case. Pay to win refers to games in which a cash shop is designed to offer players items that tend to be substantially more powerful than ANY item found in game. A great example of this is most private servers of competitive mmo’s. They run a system that enticing people to spend money by rewarding players that do pay, ridiculously overpowered gear/skills. Being able to buy something that literally -everybody- can potentially get, does not make Gw2 remotely similar to a pay to win system.

Yeah sure.
If you think that being able to buy gold doesn’t give you an advantage over other players, making this in fact a P2W, there is no point wasting time explaining it again.

Tosha Daydreamer.9251:

Is a bought level 80 better than my hard-won level 80? It isn’t, so I don’t really mind. If someone wants to spend hundreds of dollars for a shortcut and some shiny pixels, it’s fine for me, as long as he does not have a stat-wise advantage over me.

Not that level is that big a deal in this game any way? am i right :P!

if a legendairy becomes worthless because it’s on the trading post you are the problem because you only wanted it to show how awesome you are to everyone else, i’m still going for my twilight because i love the animations and effects.

Also you need a drop from fractals to get any ascended gear, so that doesn’t work as pay to win either.

Tosha Daydreamer.9251:

Is a bought level 80 better than my hard-won level 80? It isn’t, so I don’t really mind.

In fact it’s worse, since he doesn’t have experience with the class while being faced with content that expects you do.

Fuz.5621:

Yeah sure.
If you think that being able to buy gold doesn’t give you an advantage over other players, making this in fact a P2W, there is no point wasting time explaining it again.

Advantage? Not at all. I will say though, that it adds a level of convenience that some people may consider an advantage, however, it does not make or allow a player to be “better” than any other. It just means if you have money, you can get to the end a bit faster.

cNcHellShadow.7691:

Fuz.5621:

Shlamorel.8714:

There’s good points on both side of the argument here.

For me, personally, I see no foul play in letting real life money buy gems which allows one to buy gold.

Essentially people have two resources to purchase things with: real life money or time (I.e. making money in game instead of using real life money).

I can totally see how some wouldn’t like this feature, I just don’t share that feeling. I have little money to spare in real life but lots of time at the moment, so I enjoy spending more time instead of money. Time is a resource I have at the moment, money isn’t.

I would be of your same opinion, if this didn’t meant that they’re pushing gems selling in shady ways, like lowering drop rates.
And YES, this game is pay 2 win.
Certainly not in a heavy way like many korean MMOs; It may be ligh but it still is pay 2 win.

Can you please tell all of us what you can buy with cash that you can’t obtain in game?
The problem is, is people think that paying cash to get something faster than grinding/farming for it is pay to win. This is absolutely not the case. Pay to win refers to games in which a cash shop is designed to offer players items that tend to be substantially more powerful than ANY item found in game. A great example of this is most private servers of competitive mmo’s. They run a system that enticing people to spend money by rewarding players that do pay, ridiculously overpowered gear/skills. Being able to buy something that literally -everybody- can potentially get, does not make Gw2 remotely similar to a pay to win system.

Some of you play word games with the “P2W” definition to support your case. The fact of the matter is that since GW2 does not (yet) have any items that are “substantially more powerful than any item found in the game,” then the fact that you can attain the highest achievements in the game by “buying” them does, in fact, make it the “P2W” equivalent in GW2. Just because people can’t decide what other name to call it does not mean the term does not apply.

Bottom line, If a game is all about progression and achievement and a player is able to attain the end game achievement by paying for it, instead of earning it by progressing to it, then the game is in fact P2W. You can deny it until your face turns blue, but it does not change the fact.

Wrong, people that have 1000 gold bought with $ are better than the normal player, because they can afford pretty much anything a normal player needs but can’t.

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Wrong, people that have 1000 gold bought with $ are better than the normal player, because they can afford pretty much anything a normal player needs but can’t.

Bingo!

P2W

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Wrong, people that have 1000 gold bought with $ are better than the normal player, because they can afford pretty much anything a normal player needs but can’t.

This statement depends on your definition of “need” and “P2W”. It probably also depends on your definition of “can’t” as well as “normal”.

I would suggest that this entire debate boils down to that.

GW2 defines P2W as a system where you can buy something for cash that provides a gameplay boost that cannot be obtained through gameplay alone. All Stop.

In their eyes the time required is irrelevant.

I tend to agree with their definition, I do think the gem prices could stand to drop a bit though.

Some people say that a game is P2W if the cash shop provides anything other than pure cosmetic items.

For a true normal, we would need to know how many hours a week the average player commits. How much gold they bring in, etc.

It is entirely possible, that your definition of normal may in fact be a very exceptional player.

I’ve played games that are P2W, where the GvG tournaments were played by people spamming items that could only be purchased in the game’s cash shop, and there was no in game method to acquire those items. Top tier armor upgrades could only be achieved through the use of cash shop items. It sucked.

GW2 doesn’t come anywhere close to P2W. $$ = Time. If I take the $$ that I get for hours at a real life job and convert that to in game Gold that I could have acquired in hours spent playing a game… it’s just converting the rewards from time spent at work to the rewards I could have gotten from time spent in game. Do I do that? Nah, I’ve never felt the need to because there is nothing that I would get for my gems that I can’t get from playing the game.

That being said, I have converted the other way and converted the gold I got from playing to gems so I could snag something from the gem shop that made my life easier.

The notion that a game is P2W if you can use Real Money to get things that you could otherwise obtain through playing the game is, to me, laughable. If you buy your legendary, and I farm and craft mine, there is no difference.

I happen to like rock climbing and hiking to the top of mountains. There’s a 20 mile hike that I’ve done to the summit of a 4,000 foot peak with a 360 degree view of several other major peaks. It’s breath taking. There’s a road that goes to within 1/3rd of a mile of the summit, and the last 3rd of a mile is a paved trail with stairs. When I reached the summit huffing and puffing and exhausted, there were a bunch of people who had driven to the top. We got the same view. Does their driving to the top diminish my accomplishment for doing it the hard way? Did they see the half dozen major water falls I stopped at along the way? Did they get the feeling of relief from taking off the heavy pack to have lunch in a secluded glade by a mountain stream? Do they even care that they didn’t?

Craft your own legendary or buy it, it makes no difference. If you craft it, no one can take the accomplishment of what you did away from you. And if you buy it, you too can have the same pretty reward that the other guy has.

PW2 :

you attack = 100 hit

others attack = 1000000000000 hit

Gw2 really is not an P2W !
has only a small vertical progression! (I like it)

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Wrong, people that have 1000 gold bought with $ are better than the normal player, because they can afford pretty much anything a normal player needs but can’t.

Every single topic whining about GW2 being P2W has this statement in one form or another. But not a single one can tell me what it is that people who buy gold with RL money can get that I can’t get/afford.

Even if they use the mystic forge for ascended armors it still won’t be cosmetic and thus harmless.

Let’s look at the trends right now. Right now you cannot hardly find any rares to get ectos, if you choose the crafting route to make rares to salvage you still must spend 30 min farming until that is DR sets in and cuts you off. If you try to do dungeons people will demand that you already have exotic gear to go. If you are a new players not yet hit by the “omgwtfluck” drop rate then you can’t make enough money to buy the armor sets on the TP and further if you tried to put together your own exotic set you will spend months farming for the mats.

If you try the karma route you will have to wait until some RPers log in to Orr or the PVPers get tired of sPVP/WvW or the PVEers get tired of Fotm to actually release the temples to buy anything.

So basically you are almost always hindered in any direction. The only people who argue against the fact that we are being forced to go to the gold shop (what I dub it now because that’s all I’ve done with gems) are the people who’ve had incredible luck in this game. ie getting precursors (which was muddied on Nov 16th) getting rare expensive dyes all the time, making money off of other people because they actually ARE getting rare drops (even in dungeons where drops seem to hit most people the DR bug seems to be cutting people off).

So no it’s not like it was at launch where one could actually put forth some effort and get geared in two weeks and then start working towards the legendary they wanted. Now one must go to the store to get gold before getting the things their toon needs to progress. It’s not a fair system at all. But then again “manipulated RNG” never is fair.

tigirius.9014:

Let’s look at the trends right now. Right now you cannot hardly find any rares to get ectos, if you choose the crafting route to make rares to salvage you still must spend 30 min farming until that is DR sets in and cuts you off. If you try to do dungeons people will demand that you already have exotic gear to go. If you are a new players not yet hit by the “omgwtfluck” drop rate then you can’t make enough money to buy the armor sets on the TP and further if you tried to put together your own exotic set you will spend months farming for the mats.

If you try the karma route you will have to wait until some RPers log in to Orr or the PVPers get tired of sPVP/WvW or the PVEers get tired of Fotm to actually release the temples to buy anything.

I know this perception is out there, but I seriously do not think the game is in a state where this problem exists.

1) Dungeons… I PUG dungeons routinely with people under lvl 80 who are not in exotics. I’ve met good players and bad ones, but never seen a group kick someone for level or gear. Never.

2) The mats to craft exotics are not difficult to obtain, though certainly spending time in Orr chaining events helps, as does running around to nodes and gathering as you go. I will agree that it’s a bit rougher to say ’I’m going to sit down to farm X, because if I just do it for Y hours I will have what I need’ but to be honest, at this point, I would say crafting is the worst way to get armor.

3) I wear Karma armor from Orr. I picked it up after the Lost Shores update. I organized a group to clear Malchor’s Leap, uncontested both temples and got my armor. Prior to that, I was running around in sub-lvl 80 exotics that I picked up for cheap on the trading post. Keep an eye on the map, jump down when you notice it open up, or go get organized and open it up yourself. Unless your dead set on armor from the Balthazar temple, it’s an obrainable goal.

Play the game and you can get what you want. My 2nd lvl 80 character didn’t get exotic weapons till I had enough dungeon tokesn to get them, and some how, I got 800 dungeon tokens running on rares….. my next lvl 80 is going to get armor for dungeon tokens, mean while, I’m saving my coin for lodestones and whatever else catches my eye…. maybe t3 armor for someone, who knows.

Still haven’t converted gems to gold.

The thing ppl tend to leave out with the P2W argument is that most of the gold that ppl get from gems are put to skins of items that are worth a lot. Yes you can buy exotic level weapon etc.. but there are far cheaper version that do the same thing they just look different. So yes ppl are paying real life money for SKINS its no different then GW1. If any thing GW2 is more open then GW1 because you can get these skins though farming and gold and not just real life money. Please stop shooting your self in the foot for an at best partly though out idea.

Even though it’s a game it’s still in the real world. I congratulate GW2 for coming out with a balanced system that surpasses most others in it’s genre.

tigirius.9014:

So no it’s not like it was at launch where one could actually put forth some effort and get geared in two weeks and then start working towards the legendary they wanted. Now one must go to the store to get gold before getting the things their toon needs to progress. It’s not a fair system at all. But then again “manipulated RNG” never is fair.

Quit being a kitten prima dona, get off your kitten and get your gear.

It’s easy, it’s so freaking easy.

You want exotic armor? Get your kitten in dungeons and farm them. There is an easy way to get every single stat combination you could possible want from dungeons. While you’re at it, get your exotic weapons there.

Then go to fractals and get to level 10, it’s so laughably easy, you have no excuse to not get it. Then you just do level 10 daily, and 8 if you have time. You’ll get 2 ascended rings fairly quickly that way, and while you’re doing so you’ll get a ton of relics which will put you very close to an ascended back. You’ll also get enough gold to buy an exotic amulets, 2 earrings, and any runes/sigils you need.

There you go, you’re welcome.

Don’t want to do dungeons? Then get karma and get it in Orr. Is it contested? Then join a half-decent guild that will help you get it uncontested, as I’m typing this our guild is unlocking temple of balthazar.

Getting geared up in this game is so laughably easy.

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

Keiran.1896:

Tosha Daydreamer.9251:

Is a bought level 80 better than my hard-won level 80? It isn’t, so I don’t really mind. If someone wants to spend hundreds of dollars for a shortcut and some shiny pixels, it’s fine for me, as long as he does not have a stat-wise advantage over me.

That is where Ascended Gears comes ; they represent power and you litterally need hundreds of gold to get them, while someone can get them much faster with real money. While you will be trying to get the needed gold, those people will be more powerful than you in areas like WvW. Isn’t that unfair?

Why don’t you stop talking about stuff you don’t know about?

The only ascended gear that’s out right now is backs and rings. Do you work for Anet? No? Then you have no idea how the next set of ascended gear will be obtained.

The only thing you can buy with gold to get a stat advantage is the ascended back. The rings are only from running level 10+ dailys, so only the backs can be obtained with gold. And they are not “hundreds of gold.” You can get one with as little as 17 gold. And if that’s too much for you then you still have an alternative. You can buy one with 1850 fractal relics.

I WISH you could buy power with gold. I have 50 gold sitting in my bank with nothing to do with it.

Well, let’s talk about something we all know about. From the AMA:

“we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.” (CW)

“GW2 can have gradual stat progression without being a gear treadmill game.” (MO)

Vertical progression progresses by periodically increasing the power level of players, usually through stats on gear. This is what vertical progression is; we all know this.

So, why do people argue from the degree of progression of the first three pieces on the treadmill? We will have a periodic increase in power from gear; Anet has committed to this.That gear, just as with the current gear, will be available to buy, at least predominantly, with gold. Therefore you will be able to pay-to-win, through the gem store, for the gear you need to be at the ‘most’ powerful power level in the game.

But, as this is vertical progression, which only defines a gear grind treadmill, you could make the argument that this is pay-to-lose. I, personally, would use this appellation.

Raine.1394:

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

Keiran.1896:

Tosha Daydreamer.9251:

Is a bought level 80 better than my hard-won level 80? It isn’t, so I don’t really mind. If someone wants to spend hundreds of dollars for a shortcut and some shiny pixels, it’s fine for me, as long as he does not have a stat-wise advantage over me.

That is where Ascended Gears comes ; they represent power and you litterally need hundreds of gold to get them, while someone can get them much faster with real money. While you will be trying to get the needed gold, those people will be more powerful than you in areas like WvW. Isn’t that unfair?

Why don’t you stop talking about stuff you don’t know about?

The only ascended gear that’s out right now is backs and rings. Do you work for Anet? No? Then you have no idea how the next set of ascended gear will be obtained.

The only thing you can buy with gold to get a stat advantage is the ascended back. The rings are only from running level 10+ dailys, so only the backs can be obtained with gold. And they are not “hundreds of gold.” You can get one with as little as 17 gold. And if that’s too much for you then you still have an alternative. You can buy one with 1850 fractal relics.

I WISH you could buy power with gold. I have 50 gold sitting in my bank with nothing to do with it.

Well, let’s talk about something we all know about. From the AMA:

“we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.” (CW)

“GW2 can have gradual stat progression without being a gear treadmill game.” (MO)

Vertical progression progresses by periodically increasing the power level of players, usually through stats on gear. This is what vertical progression is; we all know this.

So, why do people argue from the degree of progression of the first three pieces on the treadmill? We will have a periodic increase in power from gear; Anet has committed to this.That gear, just as with the first three pieces, will be available to buy, at least predominantly, with gold. Therefore you will be able to pay-to-win, through the gem store, for the gear you need to be at the ‘most’ powerful power level in the game.

But, as this is vertical progression, which only defines a gear grind treadmill, you could make the argument that this is pay-to-lose. I, personally, would use this appellation.

The thing is YOU CANT buy them now and there is always a way to get these items with out buying. If any thing your asking for them to remove ways to get items though gold and make them only gems buy able. There is no true P2W because all items are equal level and will always be this way unless you do not trust the game makers and in that case its your world vs there and i will go with there any day over a random person from the web who can say and do any thing they want with out any type of consequences.

Jski.6180:

Raine.1394:

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

Keiran.1896:

Tosha Daydreamer.9251:

Is a bought level 80 better than my hard-won level 80? It isn’t, so I don’t really mind. If someone wants to spend hundreds of dollars for a shortcut and some shiny pixels, it’s fine for me, as long as he does not have a stat-wise advantage over me.

That is where Ascended Gears comes ; they represent power and you litterally need hundreds of gold to get them, while someone can get them much faster with real money. While you will be trying to get the needed gold, those people will be more powerful than you in areas like WvW. Isn’t that unfair?

Why don’t you stop talking about stuff you don’t know about?

The only ascended gear that’s out right now is backs and rings. Do you work for Anet? No? Then you have no idea how the next set of ascended gear will be obtained.

The only thing you can buy with gold to get a stat advantage is the ascended back. The rings are only from running level 10+ dailys, so only the backs can be obtained with gold. And they are not “hundreds of gold.” You can get one with as little as 17 gold. And if that’s too much for you then you still have an alternative. You can buy one with 1850 fractal relics.

I WISH you could buy power with gold. I have 50 gold sitting in my bank with nothing to do with it.

Well, let’s talk about something we all know about. From the AMA:

“we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.” (CW)

“GW2 can have gradual stat progression without being a gear treadmill game.” (MO)

Vertical progression progresses by periodically increasing the power level of players, usually through stats on gear. This is what vertical progression is; we all know this.

So, why do people argue from the degree of progression of the first three pieces on the treadmill? We will have a periodic increase in power from gear; Anet has committed to this.That gear, just as with the first three pieces, will be available to buy, at least predominantly, with gold. Therefore you will be able to pay-to-win, through the gem store, for the gear you need to be at the ‘most’ powerful power level in the game.

But, as this is vertical progression, which only defines a gear grind treadmill, you could make the argument that this is pay-to-lose. I, personally, would use this appellation.

The thing is YOU CANT buy them now and there is always a way to get these items with out buying. If any thing your asking for them to remove ways to get items though gold and make them only gems buy able. There is no true P2W because all items are equal level and will always be this way unless you do not trust the game makers and in that case its your world vs there and i will go with there any day over a random person from the web who can say and do any thing they want with out any type of consequences.

Let me help you with understanding vertical progression. Vertical progression “progresses” by periodically increasing the power level of players, usually through stats on gear. Before the treadmill all players are at power level X. A new tier is introduced and all players hop on the treadmill. When they hop off they are at power level Y. Meanwhile the environment has assumed power level Y, usually through new content. So, before and after the treadmill the players are at the same relative power to each other and the environment. There has been no actual progress. No one has gone anywhere. And, we have been promised that moving forward we will have, not Ascended gear, but vertical progression. We can all agree on that from the AMA.

But, what of the player who didn’t hop on the treadmill? He is now at a relative disadvantage to all players who went on the treadmill ride. If Anet stays true to form, he would be able to buy gear, right? I mean the best gear in the game, minus two rings, is currently available through gold. That would have to change in order for there to be no pay-to-win. Because it involves a treadmill that goes nowhere, I would still argue it’s pay-to-lose.

I’m not sure why anyone cares about speed leveling. In all PvP areas we’re all the same level any how. In fact once you get that first anchor character to 80 you can get enough in game money to keep your others fully kitted with ease any how.

In fact, I’m not sure why anyone cares AT ALL about what gear others have or how they got it. In SPvP you have a whole different kit, in PvE you’re not playing against eachother. The ONLY place that what the guy next to you is wearing is going to actually impact your play is in WvWvW and in that case it’s just as likely to be helpful to you as it is to hurt you.

Stop worrying so much of what everyone else has under the hood and enjoy the game.

Raine.1394:

Let me help you with understanding vertical progression. Vertical progression “progresses” by periodically increasing the power level of players, usually through stats on gear. Before the treadmill all players are at power level X. A new tier is introduced and all players hop on the treadmill. When they hop off they are at power level Y. Meanwhile the environment has assumed power level Y, usually through new content. So, before and after the treadmill the players are at the same relative power to each other and the environment. There has been no actual progress. No one has gone anywhere. And, we have been promised that moving forward we will have, not Ascended gear, but vertical progression. We can all agree on that from the AMA.

But, what of the player who didn’t hop on the treadmill? He is now at a relative disadvantage to all players who went on the treadmill ride. If Anet stays true to form, he would be able to buy gear, right? I mean the best gear in the game, minus two rings, is currently available through gold. That would have to change in order for there to be no pay-to-win. Because it involves a treadmill that goes nowhere, I would still argue it’s pay-to-lose.

By your view point and logic you can call any type of progression as a treadmill that both storyline and cleaning events to do other events. EVERY GAME by your view has a treadmill. A true Treadmill only can happen after YEARS of add on and gear upgrades. At best your over exaggeration what is happening now and agen your worlds are less then that of the makers of the game because you have no stack in this game.

Where did they say that you could buy rings with gold? And where did they say where you could no longer get rings with out running any events? Sry at best your being a bomb thrower making baseless clams to a failing idea that has been abandoned by most ppl trying to MARK the game as being a treadmill type only.

Curlybaby.6258:

cNcHellShadow.7691:

Fuz.5621:

Shlamorel.8714:

There’s good points on both side of the argument here.

For me, personally, I see no foul play in letting real life money buy gems which allows one to buy gold.

Essentially people have two resources to purchase things with: real life money or time (I.e. making money in game instead of using real life money).

I can totally see how some wouldn’t like this feature, I just don’t share that feeling. I have little money to spare in real life but lots of time at the moment, so I enjoy spending more time instead of money. Time is a resource I have at the moment, money isn’t.

I would be of your same opinion, if this didn’t meant that they’re pushing gems selling in shady ways, like lowering drop rates.
And YES, this game is pay 2 win.
Certainly not in a heavy way like many korean MMOs; It may be ligh but it still is pay 2 win.

Can you please tell all of us what you can buy with cash that you can’t obtain in game?
The problem is, is people think that paying cash to get something faster than grinding/farming for it is pay to win. This is absolutely not the case. Pay to win refers to games in which a cash shop is designed to offer players items that tend to be substantially more powerful than ANY item found in game. A great example of this is most private servers of competitive mmo’s. They run a system that enticing people to spend money by rewarding players that do pay, ridiculously overpowered gear/skills. Being able to buy something that literally -everybody- can potentially get, does not make Gw2 remotely similar to a pay to win system.

Some of you play word games with the “P2W” definition to support your case. The fact of the matter is that since GW2 does not (yet) have any items that are “substantially more powerful than any item found in the game,” then the fact that you can attain the highest achievements in the game by “buying” them does, in fact, make it the “P2W” equivalent in GW2. Just because people can’t decide what other name to call it does not mean the term does not apply.

Bottom line, If a game is all about progression and achievement and a player is able to attain the end game achievement by paying for it, instead of earning it by progressing to it, then the game is in fact P2W. You can deny it until your face turns blue, but it does not change the fact.

Buying gold is not pay to win. At all. And I offered a general idea of what pay to win is, and you argued it, without offering an alternative. Gw2 is in no way pay to win. You do not pay for “power”. You pay for time saved. There is a huge difference. Again though, name me one thing you can buy with cash that you cannot obtain in game. This is the second time I’m asking, and nobody will answer that. If you can tell me, the pay to win argument will become valid. Until then, it makes no sense.

Keiran.1896:

Tosha Daydreamer.9251:

Is a bought level 80 better than my hard-won level 80? It isn’t, so I don’t really mind. If someone wants to spend hundreds of dollars for a shortcut and some shiny pixels, it’s fine for me, as long as he does not have a stat-wise advantage over me.

That is where Ascended Gears comes ; they represent power and you litterally need hundreds of gold to get them, while someone can get them much faster with real money. While you will be trying to get the needed gold, those people will be more powerful than you in areas like WvW. Isn’t that unfair?

Legendary weapons are, I have to admit, only skins. Yet, those are a main end-game goal for players ; is it really fair, to sell them this way? And is it really profitable for Arenanet, since crafting a Legendary Weapon was probably my long term goal and it became worthless to my eyes as soon as they started popping on the Trading Post?

Acsended gear barely has a stat difference lol, your acting like ascended gear will give us an extra 300k health and make us god mode) LOL. Ascended gear isnt NEEDED unless you want to do fractals.

cNcHellShadow.7691:

Curlybaby.6258:

cNcHellShadow.7691:

Fuz.5621:

Shlamorel.8714:

There’s good points on both side of the argument here.

For me, personally, I see no foul play in letting real life money buy gems which allows one to buy gold.

Essentially people have two resources to purchase things with: real life money or time (I.e. making money in game instead of using real life money).

I can totally see how some wouldn’t like this feature, I just don’t share that feeling. I have little money to spare in real life but lots of time at the moment, so I enjoy spending more time instead of money. Time is a resource I have at the moment, money isn’t.

I would be of your same opinion, if this didn’t meant that they’re pushing gems selling in shady ways, like lowering drop rates.
And YES, this game is pay 2 win.
Certainly not in a heavy way like many korean MMOs; It may be ligh but it still is pay 2 win.

Can you please tell all of us what you can buy with cash that you can’t obtain in game?
The problem is, is people think that paying cash to get something faster than grinding/farming for it is pay to win. This is absolutely not the case. Pay to win refers to games in which a cash shop is designed to offer players items that tend to be substantially more powerful than ANY item found in game. A great example of this is most private servers of competitive mmo’s. They run a system that enticing people to spend money by rewarding players that do pay, ridiculously overpowered gear/skills. Being able to buy something that literally -everybody- can potentially get, does not make Gw2 remotely similar to a pay to win system.

Some of you play word games with the “P2W” definition to support your case. The fact of the matter is that since GW2 does not (yet) have any items that are “substantially more powerful than any item found in the game,” then the fact that you can attain the highest achievements in the game by “buying” them does, in fact, make it the “P2W” equivalent in GW2. Just because people can’t decide what other name to call it does not mean the term does not apply.

Bottom line, If a game is all about progression and achievement and a player is able to attain the end game achievement by paying for it, instead of earning it by progressing to it, then the game is in fact P2W. You can deny it until your face turns blue, but it does not change the fact.

Buying gold is not pay to win. At all. And I offered a general idea of what pay to win is, and you argued it, without offering an alternative. Gw2 is in no way pay to win. You do not pay for “power”. You pay for time saved. There is a huge difference. Again though, name me one thing you can buy with cash that you cannot obtain in game. This is the second time I’m asking, and nobody will answer that. If you can tell me, the pay to win argument will become valid. Until then, it makes no sense.

OK, let me answer you. You ask what you can buy with cash that you can’t obtain by playing the game. Nothing, beyond any gem store only items and they don’t increase your power level. But, that has nothing to do with pay to win. Pay to win is using cash to avoid the effort involved in playing the game. It is precisely to arrive at the highest power level by using cash to avoid the in-game path. Your distinction about time/effort saved by using cash is the pay-to-win everyone is talking about. It’s using cash to acquire gear rather than playing the game to acquire gear. It’s a pretty straightforward concept.

karma.8763:

Keiran.1896:

Tosha Daydreamer.9251:

Is a bought level 80 better than my hard-won level 80? It isn’t, so I don’t really mind. If someone wants to spend hundreds of dollars for a shortcut and some shiny pixels, it’s fine for me, as long as he does not have a stat-wise advantage over me.

That is where Ascended Gears comes ; they represent power and you litterally need hundreds of gold to get them, while someone can get them much faster with real money. While you will be trying to get the needed gold, those people will be more powerful than you in areas like WvW. Isn’t that unfair?

Legendary weapons are, I have to admit, only skins. Yet, those are a main end-game goal for players ; is it really fair, to sell them this way? And is it really profitable for Arenanet, since crafting a Legendary Weapon was probably my long term goal and it became worthless to my eyes as soon as they started popping on the Trading Post?

Acsended gear barely has a stat difference lol, your acting like ascended gear will give us an extra 300k health and make us god mode) LOL. Ascended gear isnt NEEDED unless you want to do fractals.

You do realize that what they added with Lost Shores was vertical progression, right? They committed to it in the AMA and I provided the quotes in a post above. Vertical progression “progresses” by periodically raising the power level of players, usually through stats on gear. Vertical progression can be described by an integer series 1,2,3,4,5,n where each integer represents a tier of gear where there is an increase in power level described by the integer value. So, the difference between 1 and 2 is very small and can probably be ignored. However, if the progression continues, and that’s what vertical progression does, eventually there will be a point where the choice is hop on the treadmill or stop playing the game. Right? a power level 1 player is just not going to be able to play a power 5 level game.

It really doesn’t matter how much difference there is between any two steps of the progression. What matters is that there is an unavoidable treadmill now and you will eventually be forced to grind, or pay cash, to continue playing the game, solely due to the increase in power level that comes with vertical progression.

Do you consider things like Bag slots, bank slots, character slots, elite skill, Permanent Golem Banker a cosmetic?

If something have a 0.001% of dropping, and is available on the Gem store, is it also consider okay, as long as its possible to drop ingame?

Just curious…

Jski.6180:

Raine.1394:

Let me help you with understanding vertical progression. Vertical progression “progresses” by periodically increasing the power level of players, usually through stats on gear. Before the treadmill all players are at power level X. A new tier is introduced and all players hop on the treadmill. When they hop off they are at power level Y. Meanwhile the environment has assumed power level Y, usually through new content. So, before and after the treadmill the players are at the same relative power to each other and the environment. There has been no actual progress. No one has gone anywhere. And, we have been promised that moving forward we will have, not Ascended gear, but vertical progression. We can all agree on that from the AMA.

But, what of the player who didn’t hop on the treadmill? He is now at a relative disadvantage to all players who went on the treadmill ride. If Anet stays true to form, he would be able to buy gear, right? I mean the best gear in the game, minus two rings, is currently available through gold. That would have to change in order for there to be no pay-to-win. Because it involves a treadmill that goes nowhere, I would still argue it’s pay-to-lose.

By your view point and logic you can call any type of progression as a treadmill that both storyline and cleaning events to do other events. EVERY GAME by your view has a treadmill. A true Treadmill only can happen after YEARS of add on and gear upgrades. At best your over exaggeration what is happening now and agen your worlds are less then that of the makers of the game because you have no stack in this game.

Where did they say that you could buy rings with gold? And where did they say where you could no longer get rings with out running any events? Sry at best your being a bomb thrower making baseless clams to a failing idea that has been abandoned by most ppl trying to MARK the game as being a treadmill type only.

No, I am dealing solely with vertical progression and claiming that it is a forced treadmill that you must ride in order to maintain a power level necessary to play the game. Let me give you a hint in arguing against my position. Describe vertical progression in a way that shows it is not a forced grind that must be performed in order to continue playing the game. In the post above you have made an assertion saying my position is wrong. You haven’t shown me where my position is wrong. Worse yet, you’ve resorted to ad hominem by calling me a “bomb thrower”. What you haven’t done is provide a reasoned argument showing that vertical progression is not a gear grind treadmill.

Raine.1394:

cNcHellShadow.7691:

Curlybaby.6258:

cNcHellShadow.7691:

Fuz.5621:

Shlamorel.8714:

There’s good points on both side of the argument here.

For me, personally, I see no foul play in letting real life money buy gems which allows one to buy gold.

Essentially people have two resources to purchase things with: real life money or time (I.e. making money in game instead of using real life money).

I can totally see how some wouldn’t like this feature, I just don’t share that feeling. I have little money to spare in real life but lots of time at the moment, so I enjoy spending more time instead of money. Time is a resource I have at the moment, money isn’t.

I would be of your same opinion, if this didn’t meant that they’re pushing gems selling in shady ways, like lowering drop rates.
And YES, this game is pay 2 win.
Certainly not in a heavy way like many korean MMOs; It may be ligh but it still is pay 2 win.

Can you please tell all of us what you can buy with cash that you can’t obtain in game?
The problem is, is people think that paying cash to get something faster than grinding/farming for it is pay to win. This is absolutely not the case. Pay to win refers to games in which a cash shop is designed to offer players items that tend to be substantially more powerful than ANY item found in game. A great example of this is most private servers of competitive mmo’s. They run a system that enticing people to spend money by rewarding players that do pay, ridiculously overpowered gear/skills. Being able to buy something that literally -everybody- can potentially get, does not make Gw2 remotely similar to a pay to win system.

Some of you play word games with the “P2W” definition to support your case. The fact of the matter is that since GW2 does not (yet) have any items that are “substantially more powerful than any item found in the game,” then the fact that you can attain the highest achievements in the game by “buying” them does, in fact, make it the “P2W” equivalent in GW2. Just because people can’t decide what other name to call it does not mean the term does not apply.

Bottom line, If a game is all about progression and achievement and a player is able to attain the end game achievement by paying for it, instead of earning it by progressing to it, then the game is in fact P2W. You can deny it until your face turns blue, but it does not change the fact.

Buying gold is not pay to win. At all. And I offered a general idea of what pay to win is, and you argued it, without offering an alternative. Gw2 is in no way pay to win. You do not pay for “power”. You pay for time saved. There is a huge difference. Again though, name me one thing you can buy with cash that you cannot obtain in game. This is the second time I’m asking, and nobody will answer that. If you can tell me, the pay to win argument will become valid. Until then, it makes no sense.

OK, let me answer you. You ask what you can buy with cash that you can’t obtain by playing the game. Nothing, beyond any gem store only items and they don’t increase your power level. But, that has nothing to do with pay to win. Pay to win is using cash to avoid the effort involved in playing the game. It is precisely to arrive at the highest power level by using cash to avoid the in-game path. Your distinction about time/effort saved by using cash is the pay-to-win everyone is talking about. It’s using cash to acquire gear rather than playing the game to acquire gear. It’s a pretty straightforward concept.

Ok, your argument, I understand. I happen to think that “win” in an mmo is relative. I can gear up characters by spending gold, others can use money. The money route offers nothing to one player, that another can’t achieve by playing. This is why I’m having trouble seeing why using money converted to gold is really pay to win. I think “pay to compete” or “pay for convenience” are more viable phrases for such a model. I actually appreciate the fact that if I have to work 70 hours a week, I have an option to maintain a competitive level of play. I can see why some people would consider this model pay to win, but in execution, everyone has the same shot at being successful. If items were locked to a specific “account subscription type” I would totally agree, but, Gw2 doesn’t run based on that model.

Vertical progression isn’t a problem in itself. It’s all about how steep the curve it.
Right now it’s just a summer hike at the bottom of the mountain and no way near an actual ascension ( no pun intended).

Raine.1394:

OK, let me answer you. You ask what you can buy with cash that you can’t obtain by playing the game. Nothing, beyond any gem store only items and they don’t increase your power level. But, that has nothing to do with pay to win. Pay to win is using cash to avoid the effort involved in playing the game. It is precisely to arrive at the highest power level by using cash to avoid the in-game path. Your distinction about time/effort saved by using cash is the pay-to-win everyone is talking about. It’s using cash to acquire gear rather than playing the game to acquire gear. It’s a pretty straightforward concept.

I don’t see this as Pay-to-win at all. I’ve played games where if you PvP without items from the cash shop you got stomped by people with items from the cash shop, and the top tier guilds for GvG all ran teams using cash shop items. GW2 is nowhere close to that. Those self same games had no ability to legitimately trade in game money for cash shop items. GW2 stomps them all by allowing us to convert Gold to Gems to obtain the things that are purchasable directly for real money.

Exotics are easily obtainable via a variety of methods. You can pay real money for gold to obtain them, but the end result is that you’re the same as someone who put in a little effort into getting the items in game.

cNcHellShadow.7691:

Raine.1394:

cNcHellShadow.7691:

Curlybaby.6258:

cNcHellShadow.7691:

Fuz.5621:

Shlamorel.8714:

There’s good points on both side of the argument here.

For me, personally, I see no foul play in letting real life money buy gems which allows one to buy gold.

Essentially people have two resources to purchase things with: real life money or time (I.e. making money in game instead of using real life money).

I can totally see how some wouldn’t like this feature, I just don’t share that feeling. I have little money to spare in real life but lots of time at the moment, so I enjoy spending more time instead of money. Time is a resource I have at the moment, money isn’t.

I would be of your same opinion, if this didn’t meant that they’re pushing gems selling in shady ways, like lowering drop rates.
And YES, this game is pay 2 win.
Certainly not in a heavy way like many korean MMOs; It may be ligh but it still is pay 2 win.

Can you please tell all of us what you can buy with cash that you can’t obtain in game?
The problem is, is people think that paying cash to get something faster than grinding/farming for it is pay to win. This is absolutely not the case. Pay to win refers to games in which a cash shop is designed to offer players items that tend to be substantially more powerful than ANY item found in game. A great example of this is most private servers of competitive mmo’s. They run a system that enticing people to spend money by rewarding players that do pay, ridiculously overpowered gear/skills. Being able to buy something that literally -everybody- can potentially get, does not make Gw2 remotely similar to a pay to win system.

Some of you play word games with the “P2W” definition to support your case. The fact of the matter is that since GW2 does not (yet) have any items that are “substantially more powerful than any item found in the game,” then the fact that you can attain the highest achievements in the game by “buying” them does, in fact, make it the “P2W” equivalent in GW2. Just because people can’t decide what other name to call it does not mean the term does not apply.

Bottom line, If a game is all about progression and achievement and a player is able to attain the end game achievement by paying for it, instead of earning it by progressing to it, then the game is in fact P2W. You can deny it until your face turns blue, but it does not change the fact.

Buying gold is not pay to win. At all. And I offered a general idea of what pay to win is, and you argued it, without offering an alternative. Gw2 is in no way pay to win. You do not pay for “power”. You pay for time saved. There is a huge difference. Again though, name me one thing you can buy with cash that you cannot obtain in game. This is the second time I’m asking, and nobody will answer that. If you can tell me, the pay to win argument will become valid. Until then, it makes no sense.

OK, let me answer you. You ask what you can buy with cash that you can’t obtain by playing the game. Nothing, beyond any gem store only items and they don’t increase your power level. But, that has nothing to do with pay to win. Pay to win is using cash to avoid the effort involved in playing the game. It is precisely to arrive at the highest power level by using cash to avoid the in-game path. Your distinction about time/effort saved by using cash is the pay-to-win everyone is talking about. It’s using cash to acquire gear rather than playing the game to acquire gear. It’s a pretty straightforward concept.

Ok, your argument, I understand. I happen to think that “win” in an mmo is relative. I can gear up characters by spending gold, others can use money. The money route offers nothing to one player, that another can’t achieve by playing. This is why I’m having trouble seeing why using money converted to gold is really pay to win. I think “pay to compete” or “pay for convenience” are more viable phrases for such a model. I actually appreciate the fact that if I have to work 70 hours a week, I have an option to maintain a competitive level of play. I can see why some people would consider this model pay to win, but in execution, everyone has the same shot at being successful. If items were locked to a specific “account subscription type” I would totally agree, but, Gw2 doesn’t run based on that model.

I agree with you that “win” in an MMO is a relative term. That’s why I would phrase keeping up with vertical progression, using cash, as pay-to-lose, as you haven’t actually gained anything through vertical progression.

Groovy.6749:

Vertical progression isn’t a problem in itself. It’s all about how steep the curve it.
Right now it’s just a summer hike at the bottom of the mountain and no way near an actual ascension ( no pun intended).

Groovy, I want you to know that I worked very hard in two of my posts above to show that it is vertical progression, not the power difference between any two points in the progression series, that is the problem. I take full responsibility for my failure to adequately demonstrate this. I want you to know I blame no one but myself.