Guild Wars 2

I wasn’t referring to the power difference between two points. I was referring to the fact that working on getting two pieces of gear every few months or so is not comparable as farming a full set (both for pve and pvp) every month.

Also ascended is only required by fractals to play more fractals (at least at the moment). You and I can still clear all the remaining content with masterwork gear if we wanted to. So right now presuming that ascended is preventing you from being able to complete activities in the game is just that : presuming.

I don’t mean to brush you the wrong way and if I have then I apologize, I have seen quite a few posts from yourself across the forums and you come across to me as a decent and level-headed person, but I am simply stating my opinion on the matter. I cannot help it if sometimes they differ.

Ascended gear and vertical progress might become a problem but at the moment it’s kinda moot to use it as a claim that GW2 is a P2W since we know nothing about how they will be acquired yet.

As for being able to use RL money to skip a time grind, that does not make it P2W. I’d generally say that people who feel that using money to bypass a time investment lack 1) a job and/or 2) a (social) life. For kids it’s alright to spend time instead of money to reach a goal but this model is great in that it also allows adults who might only have a very limited amount of time to enjoy the game without first having to grind for it if they’re willing to spend some of the cash they earned at work (while kids could play).

Raine.1394:

No, I am dealing solely with vertical progression and claiming that it is a forced treadmill that you must ride in order to maintain a power level necessary to play the game. Let me give you a hint in arguing against my position. Describe vertical progression in a way that shows it is not a forced grind that must be performed in order to continue playing the game. In the post above you have made an assertion saying my position is wrong. You haven’t shown me where my position is wrong. Worse yet, you’ve resorted to ad hominem by calling me a “bomb thrower”. What you haven’t done is provide a reasoned argument showing that vertical progression is not a gear grind treadmill.

Let’s see…
Forced grind: You have to farm dungeon Xxx at least once a day(if possible 2), you do not enjoy running dungeon Xxx all the time, but it’s the only way to obtain Xxx gear(aka, the next progression step) thus you feel forced.
GW2: You have 3 distinct ways of obtaining gear. WvWvW for karma, dungeons for tokens, open world farming for crafted(and an additional gold making for bought). You can do any of those 3 things to reach your goal. They also happen to be 90% of the content outside spvp. If every single one of those options feels like “forced grind” to you, you are clearly playing the wrong game.
At this very moment we have no reason to believe ascended gear will be locked into one aspect. Actually, the devs specifically said that there will be multiple ways to obtain it and that they will take it out of fotm when they have the whole thing good to go.

Keiran.1896:

That is where Ascended Gears comes ; they represent power and you litterally need hundreds of gold to get them, while someone can get them much faster with real money. While you will be trying to get the needed gold, those people will be more powerful than you in areas like WvW. Isn’t that unfair?

What’re you on about? I’ve got +25 AR and I haven’t spent any gold getting my ascended gear =\ Other than upgrading the backpiece, all of the ascended gear can be gotten 100% with fractal tokens >.>

People have been able to convert gems to gold since launch I believe. Using this gold to buy gear has likewise always been possible. There is therefore nothing new about buying gear with gold. So what if the gear is now labeled ascended? There are people with more money than time. If they choose to buy gems and convert to gold they still cannot obtain something I cannot get from playing the game. They also support the game financially and provide an alternative to a subscription. I have no problem with any of this. Google “envy”, it is an interesting read.

TWMagimay.9057:

Raine.1394:

No, I am dealing solely with vertical progression and claiming that it is a forced treadmill that you must ride in order to maintain a power level necessary to play the game. Let me give you a hint in arguing against my position. Describe vertical progression in a way that shows it is not a forced grind that must be performed in order to continue playing the game. In the post above you have made an assertion saying my position is wrong. You haven’t shown me where my position is wrong. Worse yet, you’ve resorted to ad hominem by calling me a “bomb thrower”. What you haven’t done is provide a reasoned argument showing that vertical progression is not a gear grind treadmill.

Let’s see…
Forced grind: You have to farm dungeon Xxx at least once a day(if possible 2), you do not enjoy running dungeon Xxx all the time, but it’s the only way to obtain Xxx gear(aka, the next progression step) thus you feel forced.
GW2: You have 3 distinct ways of obtaining gear. WvWvW for karma, dungeons for tokens, open world farming for crafted(and an additional gold making for bought). You can do any of those 3 things to reach your goal. They also happen to be 90% of the content outside spvp. If every single one of those options feels like “forced grind” to you, you are clearly playing the wrong game.
At this very moment we have no reason to believe ascended gear will be locked into one aspect. Actually, the devs specifically said that there will be multiple ways to obtain it and that they will take it out of fotm when they have the whole thing good to go.

BTW, you can take the ‘enjoy’ out of your definition of forced grinds. Forced grinds are forced whether you enjoy them or not. There are people who enjoy grinding and that’s why we have games like WoW which are successful with vertical progression and a gear grind. But I don’t understand your distinctions. I get that by your definition we currently have a forced grind with Ascended gear and FotM. But, you seem to be drawing a distinction of some kind between what GW2 is and what a forced grind is. Are you saying that there is or will be no forced grind, or are you saying that they will give up the current forced grind and conveniently locate treadmills throughout the game? Wouldn’t that just be distributing the forced grind? It’s not clear to me what you are saying about the game and forced grinds.

My main is fully geared out. I haven’t put any money into the game. Can someone please explain to me how another player willing to spend $2k has an advantage over me?

Gisei.5749:

My main is fully geared out. I haven’t put any money into the game. Can someone please explain to me how another player willing to spend $2k has an advantage over me?

Once you’ve earned your gear and the other person has paid their cash, neither would have any advantage over the other. Paying cash to advance in a game is what people call pay to win. Some people are fine with pay to win, others object to it on principle.

I have a huge problem with ascended equipment but I wouldn’t say any of this is “pay to win”. The closest “pay to win” problem in GW2 in my opinion is in WvW with its siege and upgrade gold sinks.

karma.8763:

Keiran.1896:

Tosha Daydreamer.9251:

Is a bought level 80 better than my hard-won level 80? It isn’t, so I don’t really mind. If someone wants to spend hundreds of dollars for a shortcut and some shiny pixels, it’s fine for me, as long as he does not have a stat-wise advantage over me.

That is where Ascended Gears comes ; they represent power and you litterally need hundreds of gold to get them, while someone can get them much faster with real money. While you will be trying to get the needed gold, those people will be more powerful than you in areas like WvW. Isn’t that unfair?

Legendary weapons are, I have to admit, only skins. Yet, those are a main end-game goal for players ; is it really fair, to sell them this way? And is it really profitable for Arenanet, since crafting a Legendary Weapon was probably my long term goal and it became worthless to my eyes as soon as they started popping on the Trading Post?

Acsended gear barely has a stat difference lol, your acting like ascended gear will give us an extra 300k health and make us god mode) LOL. Ascended gear isnt NEEDED unless you want to do fractals.

+1, All gear beyond exotic (which you could buy with karma or a few gold relatively) literally makes no difference.

Groovy.6749:

I wasn’t referring to the power difference between two points. I was referring to the fact that working on getting two pieces of gear every few months or so is not comparable as farming a full set (both for pve and pvp) every month.

Also ascended is only required by fractals to play more fractals (at least at the moment). You and I can still clear all the remaining content with masterwork gear if we wanted to. So right now presuming that ascended is preventing you from being able to complete activities in the game is just that : presuming.

I don’t mean to brush you the wrong way and if I have then I apologize, I have seen quite a few posts from yourself across the forums and you come across to me as a decent and level-headed person, but I am simply stating my opinion on the matter. I cannot help it if sometimes they differ.

No offense taken. I understand that rational, well-intended people will have differences on issues. I’ve even posted in support of a view that you put forward if I recall correctly. I try my best to keep the issues separate from personalities and focus on the issues while acknowledging the value of each of the people.

Cheers

Raine.1394:

BTW, you can take the ‘enjoy’ out of your definition of forced grinds. Forced grinds are forced whether you enjoy them or not. There are people who enjoy grinding and that’s why we have games like WoW which are successful with vertical progression and a gear grind. But I don’t understand your distinctions. I get that by your definition we currently have a forced grind with Ascended gear and FotM. But, you seem to be drawing a distinction of some kind between what GW2 is and what a forced grind is. Are you saying that there is or will be no forced grind, or are you saying that they will give up the current forced grind and conveniently locate treadmills throughout the game? Wouldn’t that just be distributing the forced grind? It’s not clear to me what you are saying about the game and forced grinds.

If you enjoy it, it’s not forced, it’s just grind. Forced is, by definition, involuntary and the product of an outside force. You would be the first person I ever met who enjoys things against their will….
You are under no obligation to get ascended gear right now. The only reason to get those items is if you want to farm fotm in the first place and they are a by-product of farming fotm. Which means you are still not forced to do anything you don’t want to.
The rest of the gear in the game is entirely based on choice which is pretty much the opposite of forced and there is no reason to believe that once the actual progression comes it’ll be any different.

GW2 is not a Pay-to-Win game, yet.

It is only Pay-to-Save-Time-and-Effort.

Buy gems with a few bucks, trade gems for gold and buy all the exotics you need. The rate gems to gold is very good and you will get a load of gold for your gems. Exotics are cheap.
BINGO. Top gear with no effort. What else can you ask more?

Raine.1394:

OK, let me answer you. You ask what you can buy with cash that you can’t obtain by playing the game. Nothing, beyond any gem store only items and they don’t increase your power level. But, that has nothing to do with pay to win. Pay to win is using cash to avoid the effort involved in playing the game. It is precisely to arrive at the highest power level by using cash to avoid the in-game path. Your distinction about time/effort saved by using cash is the pay-to-win everyone is talking about. It’s using cash to acquire gear rather than playing the game to acquire gear. It’s a pretty straightforward concept.

That has never been the definition of Pay-to-win. Ever. You can’t make it so by simply saying that’s what it is.

Pay-to-win has always been where a game offers you things that you cannot obtain through other means that has a statistical advantage over the non-paying populace.

Until you can buy weapons or armor that surpasses what you can get in the game, it is not pay-to-win.

OP, if it was still cosmetic I’d still be farming for my ‘Mini Polar Bear’ (while buying my costumes like I did every year til now). As it is, I’m finding it hard to login.

Raine.1394:

Jski.6180:

Raine.1394:

Let me help you with understanding vertical progression. Vertical progression “progresses” by periodically increasing the power level of players, usually through stats on gear. Before the treadmill all players are at power level X. A new tier is introduced and all players hop on the treadmill. When they hop off they are at power level Y. Meanwhile the environment has assumed power level Y, usually through new content. So, before and after the treadmill the players are at the same relative power to each other and the environment. There has been no actual progress. No one has gone anywhere. And, we have been promised that moving forward we will have, not Ascended gear, but vertical progression. We can all agree on that from the AMA.

But, what of the player who didn’t hop on the treadmill? He is now at a relative disadvantage to all players who went on the treadmill ride. If Anet stays true to form, he would be able to buy gear, right? I mean the best gear in the game, minus two rings, is currently available through gold. That would have to change in order for there to be no pay-to-win. Because it involves a treadmill that goes nowhere, I would still argue it’s pay-to-lose.

By your view point and logic you can call any type of progression as a treadmill that both storyline and cleaning events to do other events. EVERY GAME by your view has a treadmill. A true Treadmill only can happen after YEARS of add on and gear upgrades. At best your over exaggeration what is happening now and agen your worlds are less then that of the makers of the game because you have no stack in this game.

Where did they say that you could buy rings with gold? And where did they say where you could no longer get rings with out running any events? Sry at best your being a bomb thrower making baseless clams to a failing idea that has been abandoned by most ppl trying to MARK the game as being a treadmill type only.

No, I am dealing solely with vertical progression and claiming that it is a forced treadmill that you must ride in order to maintain a power level necessary to play the game. Let me give you a hint in arguing against my position. Describe vertical progression in a way that shows it is not a forced grind that must be performed in order to continue playing the game. In the post above you have made an assertion saying my position is wrong. You haven’t shown me where my position is wrong. Worse yet, you’ve resorted to ad hominem by calling me a “bomb thrower”. What you haven’t done is provide a reasoned argument showing that vertical progression is not a gear grind treadmill.

It is simply this that in most games there is a level you must get to to move on to the next part this is both personal level and story line level THIS is not a treadmill. As things stand this is the most needed thing in this game GW2 to move on to the “next” event. Most gear is there but is not comply needed for the next level of event. Point out the event beyond in it self fractals 20+ where you NEED high level gear. As things stand YOU have not made one point that has not been provident by the game makers them self.

Jski if Anet confirm that these higher stats will have no basis on future expansions, wooties. But Remember when they said…..

See the problem?

Right now you can buy gear with gold. That adds stats. Let’s look at it from a new players standpoint if you have a freshly made 80 and you gear him guess what you gotta do, spemd three months grinding it due to the messed up MF the possibility of your character getting stuck with permaDR and the lowered loot drops even from rares if you manage to get any rares. Only to get the first tier of gear.

OR you could go to the store by $50 worth of gems and get enough gold to buy the weapons exotics runes and sigils to gear yourself.

Let’s see, what could that be, hmmm oh yeah! that a RMT system. Now one could argue that this will only be the case for a short time that they will be making modifications and one could say that the only piece of ascended gear that will be bought with gold will be the backpiece once these changes are made but cmon now, let’s get real. How many new players are buying gems for gold right now to get the quick gear so they don’t have to spend endless hours of grinding to get the things they need (and yes despite everyone’s protests it’s very obvious that people only want the best to run dungeons so yes people are being discriminated against, and yes 1 discrimination is way too many). So what makes you think, that the future of ascended gear won’t be the kind that is available in the TP or craftable with the real crafting disciplines, and with easily obtainable mats in the dungeons making it possible to run to the store to buy more gems for gold so they can be bought? anyone? I thought so.

The thing is this. Here’s a dungeon that was never supposed to be in the game, with a gear level that was invented (it was not missing trust me), with stats (that was never supposed to be in the game it was all supposed to be cosmetic), that suddenly became the real focus of this game.

Call us names all you want, but there’s one thing you cannot honestly call me and OP and that’s wrong because you know we are right, and no amount of name calling will change that fact.

tigirius.9014:

The thing is this. Here’s a dungeon that was never supposed to be in the game, with a gear level that was invented (it was not missing trust me), with stats (that was never supposed to be in the game it was all supposed to be cosmetic), that suddenly became the real focus of this game.

But Anet claimed it was supposed to be or was it Ascended items they were babbling about? If ascended were supposed to be in since launch, why weren’t they in the beta and have reduced stats on Legendaries when they were introducing Ascended only to have Anet beef up stats on Legendaries for their introduction (ascended)? Why throughout years of development claim that exotics are………why…why…why…We know now!

Happy Christmas!

Ascended gear still wouldent be pay to win in fact if it was craft-able it would weaken your argument . Pay to Win would require the item be cash shop only and it give a large stat boost of some sort ; buying a legendary off the TP or buying ascended gear doesent qualify since you can get it through gameplay with a little effort .

tigirius.9014:

The thing is this. Here’s a dungeon that was never supposed to be in the game, with a gear level that was invented (it was not missing trust me), with stats (that was never supposed to be in the game it was all supposed to be cosmetic), that suddenly became the real focus of this game.

But Anet claimed it was supposed to be or was it Ascended items they were babbling about? If ascended were supposed to be in since launch, why weren’t they in the beta and have reduced stats on Legendaries when they were planning on introducing Ascended only to have Anet beef up stats on Legendaries for their introduction (ascended)? Why throughout years of development claim that exotics are………why…why…why…We know now!

Happy Christmas from NCSoft & Crystin Cox! Watch your wallets!

TWMagimay.9057:

Raine.1394:

BTW, you can take the ‘enjoy’ out of your definition of forced grinds. Forced grinds are forced whether you enjoy them or not. There are people who enjoy grinding and that’s why we have games like WoW which are successful with vertical progression and a gear grind. But I don’t understand your distinctions. I get that by your definition we currently have a forced grind with Ascended gear and FotM. But, you seem to be drawing a distinction of some kind between what GW2 is and what a forced grind is. Are you saying that there is or will be no forced grind, or are you saying that they will give up the current forced grind and conveniently locate treadmills throughout the game? Wouldn’t that just be distributing the forced grind? It’s not clear to me what you are saying about the game and forced grinds.

If you enjoy it, it’s not forced, it’s just grind. Forced is, by definition, involuntary and the product of an outside force. You would be the first person I ever met who enjoys things against their will….
You are under no obligation to get ascended gear right now. The only reason to get those items is if you want to farm fotm in the first place and they are a by-product of farming fotm. Which means you are still not forced to do anything you don’t want to.
The rest of the gear in the game is entirely based on choice which is pretty much the opposite of forced and there is no reason to believe that once the actual progression comes it’ll be any different.

Again, one’s enjoyment of a grind has no bearing on whether it’s forced. If you must do it to continue playing the game, it is forced. I’m sorry but you really can’t get around this one. You can say that I’m free to leave the game, but you can’t say I’m free to stay in a game with vertical progression if I don’t want to do the grind. Grindy games don’t work that way—I know as I played WoW for years and came to GW2 to get away from the grind.

You qualify the need to get Ascended gear as well you should. Anet has already said the the changes brought in with ascended gear will apply to other parts of the game moving forward. Ascended gear, after all, will simply be one tier in successive tiers of ever more powerful gear. That’s what vertical progression is and they said in the AMA that moving forward we would have vertical progression.

Once again, vertical progression “progresses” by periodically raising the power level of players. I explained it in detail in previous posts in this thread. With a gradual increase in power level, there will come a point at which, in order to continue playing the game, I will need to hop on a treadmill to acquire the gear at a higher power level. I don’t want to grind so it will be forced if I want to continue playing the game. Again there is no way around this. I’m free to quit, but I’m not free to continue playing if I don’t grind. If you disagree, then define vertical progression in a way that doesn’t lead to a forced gear grind. Absent that other definition, which doesn’t exist by the way, you will be forced to agree with me.

Paul.4081:

Jski if Anet confirm that these higher stats will have no basis on future expansions, wooties. But Remember when they said…..

See the problem?

That your willing to only believe one way with no proof in it? At best your being a cynic this is the worst type of substitute for logic.

One of the serious threads out here so im gonna chip in, first of all people need to understand the term “pay to win” , in gw2 it’s clear by now I hope for everyone that there is no gap between stats at higher level ( minus the ascendant pieces ) and everyone plays at the same level. Cosmetics should never be considered pay2win and if there are some gw1 players left here and for the new guys , gw1 was all about the skins at top level with the same stats.

Some people still rage about the ascendant gear from what i’ve been gathering I did too , and after getting my 3 ascendant pieces I realised that the upgrade is kitten basically +30 power or stat , getting good food – sharpening stones can get you +200 stats so that’s that. Also they announced that the gear will be available from wvw , dungeons and the rng will be removed completely im sure stop crying about that.

So we return to the first point why are people crying for ? They have the best stats from doing the regular dungeons now they cry about the “skins” ? They are optional stop calling it pay2win.

The real essence of the game is to play from Lvl1 ~ Lvl80 ..

never mind those people

I also get the distinct feeling that people are using p2w in a non-standard way here. P2w usualy refers to either being able to obtain better gear with money than is availible in game or being able to obtain gear immediately which would othervise require an absurd amount of farming/time. GW2 has in no way got the first one and the second one comes down to your definition of “absurd amount”. E.g. Planetside 2 also has a system where you can buy stuff with in game credits or buy them with RL money, that can be considered a p2w since the amount needed for a new weapon is along the lines of 3€ or ca 200h of game play. In GW2 you can obtain gear much quicker through e.g. Dungeon runs and if you combine that with some crafting you’ll have your character geared up in no time. As I said in an earlier post, what the gem→gold system does is allow people who don’t have as much time to do dungeons nor enjoy it to get their gear if they want to play WvW or some such.

Keiran.1896:

That is where Ascended Gears comes ; they represent power and you litterally need hundreds of gold to get them, while someone can get them much faster with real money. While you will be trying to get the needed gold, those people will be more powerful than you in areas like WvW. Isn’t that unfair?

Uhhh.. what? you can just do fractals & other stuff to get the item the same way. The only difference is time. 1 person spend their in-game time to get the item the other person spends the money they got for their time working IRL. It’s really not worth being that worked up over.
As for the P2W thing people on this forum have been mutilating that phrase. There is nothing that money does in this game but speed up the process of getting certain gear. & the only time you can ever WIN with it is in WvW. & that is only until your enemies catch up stat-wise. which is an inconsequentially short time.

P2W is simply :

When you can buy something with real life cash that gives you a distinct statistical advantage over other players, that either :

Cannot be obtained without spending money

or

Takes so long to get without spending money it’s absurd.

And no, a couple weeks for an ascended back does NOT fill that second description, I’m talking more like something you can buy that would take several years to get without spending money.

“I know as I played WoW for years and came to GW2 to get away from the grind.”

Me too, and I’m completely satisfied. Whoever says this game is grindy and p2win, sorry, but has no idea what he’s talking about… It MAY be that way in the future, with more ascended gear intorduced, but they claimed ascended gear will be available trough other game modes not only fractals. Just like it was with exotic, which was (is) SUPER EASY to obtain. How in the kitten is getting a character to full exotic grindy and long in this game? If you find GW2 grindy, I don’t know what to say, you’re playing it wrong. Don’t get me wrong, it has it’s flaws, it’s not perfect. But claiming this game is grindy and p2win is the unbelievabliest thing I heard in my whole life, seriously… I would even call it pay2LOSE, because you can only get things for money you can obtain trough PLAYING the game. If you don’t find the game fun, just don’t play it, but don’t really see the point in paying more money so I have to play less in the game I payed to play (Diablo 3 being the perfect example where people payed hundreds of euros to skip the actual game they bought, which is the stupidest thing I can imagine)… Only thing you can do with money is save time, how in the friggin hell can you say your friend is “winnng” (winning what…?) over you by paying for something you obtained trough playing and (hopefully) enjoying the game…?

Anyway, Merry Christmas to everyone!

Raine.1394:

Again, one’s enjoyment of a grind has no bearing on whether it’s forced. If you must do it to continue playing the game, it is forced. I’m sorry but you really can’t get around this one. You can say that I’m free to leave the game, but you can’t say I’m free to stay in a game with vertical progression if I don’t want to do the grind. Grindy games don’t work that way—I know as I played WoW for years and came to GW2 to get away from the grind.

I have yet to force smb into doing smth they enjoy. People tend to volunteer for those.
Because, ammm, they enjoy it. They like it. It’s fun for them.

If you disagree, then define vertical progression in a way that doesn’t lead to a forced gear grind. Absent that other definition, which doesn’t exist by the way, you will be forced to agree with me.

I already did. 2 times. I’ll try again.
Basically, what you are saying is, you don’t do WvWvW, you don’t do DEs, you don’t do open world farming, you don’t do any dungeons. What exactly is it that you do in this game?! If you did any of those things, you’d never have to “hop on the treadmill”, you’d already be on it, doing stuff you enjoy. Because people who do:
- WvWvW/DEs acquire karma through a natural(aka, the opposite of forced) way and get gear with that
- open world farming acquire crafting materials naturally(the opposite of forced) and get gear that way
- dungeons acquire tokens naturally(aka, the opposite of forced) and get gear that way
I’m not disagreeing with vertical progression or grind(theoretically, every aspect of every game can be called “grind” which makes it redundant anyway). I’m questioning the “forced” part of your posts. Let’s go over the definition of that word from thefreedictionary:
1. Imposed by force; involuntary
2. Produced under strain; not spontaneous

1. done because of force
2. false or unnatural
3. due to an emergency or necessity a forced landing
4. (Physics / General Physics) Physics caused by an external agency

Now, if you wouldn’t volunteer to do any of the above activities, I’m fairly certain that GW2 isn’t the game for you. But I’m equally certain that most people are currently doing at least one of those things on regular basis, out of their own free will. I know that I’ll have ascended set in a matter of days, because I farm a lot. My fiancé will prob have it on the first day, cause he’s in WvWvW all the time and it’s raining karma…

Keiran.1896:

This is truth, nobody who thinks a logical way can deny it.

I remember having a thread where I was in a “heated debate” trying to explain that people can make the game easier for themselves with money, which means the store is not 100% cosmetic, and that logic totally confused those people. I eventually gave up as they just simply didn’t understand.

You can debate how fair you think it is, since you mentioned that you can buy that stuff with gold you farm, but the exchange rate is constantly going up and I cant see a reason for it to ever go down, unless they nerf drop rates (even more – some may say) encouraging people to buy gems for the shop as there isnt enough ingame generated money to buy anything.

Personally I hate it. I was told it was going to be a cosmetic store and it isnt, you can buy things that make the game easier – best example is the fact you can buy gold straight up. Bots were a fairer alternative as they injected gold into the economy via selling for real money but also made material prices very cheap so players could buy stuff on their casual player budget. This current system feels like it screws over the common player.

League of Legends is the perfect example of a cosmetic shop that works, why don’t game developers copy that instead of trying to “force” or “strongly encourage” us to spend money to gain some sort of ingame advantage.

Quaz.4931:

This current system feels like it screws over the common player.

Two things:
1) who exactly is “the common player”?
2) how are they screwed over by this?

I see it as we have a limited amount of resources, 24h per day. In order to advance in GW2 someone can chose to either play for a few more hours or if they have a job they will do it, earning money that they can decide to spend in GW2 to get to the same level as someone who can sit and play all day. The important thing is that they don’t get to a level above people who don’t spend money, they only (might) get there faster. Considering how easy it is to get exotics though from dungeons (which also give you good gold) it’s a very small benefit though.

@Quaz

Maybe it’s you who feel forced to spend money in the cash shop, I for example, don’t. Why would you make the game easier, it’s already easy. Why would you “buy yourself out of the game?” It’s super easy to get exotic gear in this game. Ascended is kind of a “future” gear, which is at the moment only required for the content where you actually can get it, also that content is optional, there is no classic “endgame” and you’re not forced to do anything. If you feel like you are, the problem is maybe with you.

Exotic gear is aquired by just simply playing the game, just like TWMagimay wrote above. It seems to me that the complainers just can’t get themselves out of the gear-treadmill mindset, you are the ones who want to force that upon yourselves. Just play the game, enjoy it, and now and then buy a gear piece with the gold or karma or tokens you get, and get full exotic in 2 weeks… Where is that grind, I’ve yet to encounter any forced grind in this game. Gold just flows in with whatever you do, of course you don’t get gold by AFK-ing in LA and spending the whole day on the forums.

EDIT: I know, since I guess I’m your “common player”, I’m AFK-ing in LA a lot lately, because I don’t feel like doing anything, just playing around with builds, chatting with the guildmates, listening to wintersday music and such stupid stuff, and then maybe join an instance group when needed, or help out in leveling or something. And it’s not costing me anything in the game (nor IRL, only time, but the blame is on me for deciding to just chill out and waste time in the game). I don’t feel like I’m forced to play, I can just chill out and do these “useless” things, where I don’t get gold or anything. Just get yourself out of this “I have to play x hours today and I have to do this and that during those hours because else it’s not worth it” mindset.

Jski.6180:

Paul.4081:

Jski if Anet confirm that these higher stats will have no basis on future expansions, wooties. But Remember when they said…..

See the problem?

That your willing to only believe one way with no proof in it? At best your being a cynic this is the worst type of substitute for logic.

I have no belief in anything computer game related that isn’t fun. I am a cynic yes. But after 5 years of GW1 was I ever cynical towards the game.

Actually what the hell are you babbling about Yoda? Need a Santa hat?

This is the same, played out discussion, with the exact same type of self-contradictory original post that is present in every single one.

It’s a bloody formula at this point, and it was kind of a thoughtful debate the first fifty times, but now just becomes an exercise in ignorance.

The primary question is always some variant of “Is what you can get with gold purely cosmetic?”
The poster will invariably use legendary weapons as an example of something that gold will help with with, and I start wanting to put my head through a desk.

Yes. They are cosmetic.

And even if it was just cosmetic it still makes the game pay to win. The whole point of cosmetics is to compete against other peoples cosmetics, so if you can just buy them then it kills the whole point of the pve competition of acquiring them or getting gold to buy them.

Pay to win by definition is when players uses cash-shop items to give themselves an unfair advantage over other players who cannot afford to use a cash-shop.
There are no items in the cash shop that will do this.

Now, GW2 is not PtoW and unless Anet starts offering legendary weapons AND armor in the cash shop (so incredibly unlikely as to be both impossible and improbable) this will never change.

If any here played Ace Online, Air Rivals or, as it was once called, Space Cowyboys (all three are the same game hosted by different companies), then you know THAT was a real PtoW game.

Using gold, however you obtain it, to craft your way to 80 does not confer an unfair advantage.

I haven’t spent a dime of real money on gems and yet I have bought a ton of stuff off the gem store. If anything, gold is the advantage. Then again, there is nothing in the store I feel like I need to sped real money on yet. That will have to wait. There are no P2W items in the gem shop yet. Flat out. We could say those armor boosters and speed boosters are, but I get those for free doing things too. I think Anet has struck the proper balance.

There’s no P2W in GW2, if you go by ANet’s (and many people’s) definition of “win.”

ANet defines success as access to stats/content, and the ability to defeat others in PvP. At the moment, a person who does not buy gems has as much access to stats and content as someone who does. (similarly, PvP).

Of course, some people have their own definition of success. One common addition is “time”. Some people treat MMOs as a race. If they get to Lvl80 faster than you, if they get their legendary faster than you, etc, then they have “won”. So for these people, being able to shortcut these objectives with money can be considered P2W.
But that’s only based on their own definition of success – ANet does not share this definition, and neither do I or many people.

I don’t think its necessary to cater to the whims of these people. It could be a slippery slope. For example, I could state that my definition of success is “fashion”. Since most of the town clothes are only accessible by the cash shop, I can suddenly start accusing GW2 of being “Pay to win! OMFG.”

Ultimately, GW2 is not pay to win by a fairly reasonable definition of “win”. People who have alternative definitions of “win” may disagree, but they can’t deny that ANet’s definition is a legitimate one.

Isn’t the crux of the issue with pay to win (P2W) is that it will unfairly impact on PvP?

I know for Aion, WoW, that the various concerns around P2W revolved around the fact that it had an impact on PvP. For example, you could give your character the best gear in the game with $$$ while another player spends hours earning their gear.

However, in GW2, if we applied similar concerns it wouldn’t make sense. For example, you can refer to Keiran’s points on what you can do with gold yet none of it impacts on PvP. It may impact on WvW but for fair and “hardcore” PvP it makes no difference as Arenanet designed it so that everyone has the same gear and flexibility in customization free of charge.

So I guess in GW2 we have to redefine what P2W, and I think when people talk about P2W in relation to GW2 that they should establish the context of “win”. We know it is not winning in a true PvP sense.

It could now be winning in terms of achievement points, gold, but personally that would not bother me as much as having an exclusive advantage in real PvP that money can only buy…

No it is not cosmetic. You can buy a character. You can buy the gear. You can buy the ultimate “end game” skins. The fact you are equal power is not the point. You can be equal to another person, without even playing the game. Disappointing Arenanet, simply disappointing…

Diva.4706:

No it is not cosmetic. You can buy a character. You can buy the gear. You can buy the ultimate “end game” skins. The fact you are equal power is not the point. You can be equal to another person, without even playing the game. Disappointing Arenanet, simply disappointing…

I just don’t get it. You’re playing the game, not for fun, but to compare yourself to others? Sure, someone can do all that you say. Instead of getting kitten-hurt about it, pity them for bypassing the game they paid for. Bypassing the game is one of the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen. I’d advise not letting your own sense of satisfaction suffer because of others’ choices.

Diva.4706:

No it is not cosmetic. You can buy a character. You can buy the gear. You can buy the ultimate “end game” skins. The fact you are equal power is not the point. You can be equal to another person, without even playing the game. Disappointing Arenanet, simply disappointing…

If you buy your food instead of spending time and growing them yourself, aren’t you a P2W? The fact (that) you are equal(ly) fed is not the point. I sell all my crafting materials obtained by my 2nd to 5th avatar on tp for those who want to level by crafting and i make a lot of gold from it. With the gold, i buy crystals for additional slots.

From my perspective the system works in my favor.

I have a well paid job, spend 2-5 hours a day on this game, but i just don’t feel like spending more real cash on the game (yet). But i have no problem with people who do (as long as its through Anet). These are the people who suport the game financially so that i can have better content.

@Diva

“The fact you are equal power is not the point.”

You’re wrong, that is EXACTLY the point.

“You can be equal to another person, without even playing the game.”

And what exactly is the point in THAT…? You buy a game then pay again not to play it? Genious…

Considering that the purchase of gold doesn’t give any advantage at the moment, yes it’s still cosmetic.

The only thing that could become an advantage is the purchase of a Legendary buy considering that Twilight is going for 9500g, you’d have to spend $7000 usd in gems to buy Twilight with real money and that to me isn’t paying to win because no one is going to spend $7000 for a freaking in game sword.

I think people are overreacting and calling it ‘pay-to-win’ without knowing what it actually means.

Sure buying gold can get you things faster but it will DOESN’T give you an advantage. There is nothing that someone can get by buying gold that you can’t get by playing. Why should we be complaining about how someone can spend money to get something faster than you because isn’t playing the point of a game? Who cares if some person got a legendary in 5 mins by spending $7000 in gems?

The point of playing should be to have fun and as long as people can’t buy an advantage, there’s nothing to stop you from having fun.

Also, with regards to services such as golem banker and inventory expansions. Those are fine because they are convenience items. There’s no one who plays the game that HAS to have 100 items on them or else they can’t play properly. Services are just convenience items and they don’t give any feasible advantage over others.

TL;DR: It’s not pay-to-win as long as you can still reach the same position without spending a single cent.

Diva.4706:

No it is not cosmetic. You can buy a character. You can buy the gear. You can buy the ultimate “end game” skins. The fact you are equal power is not the point. You can be equal to another person, without even playing the game. Disappointing Arenanet, simply disappointing…

Buying gems and converting it to gold makes you, at most, as powerful as someone who has not bought gems. You can argue that it’s unfair that you can pay gold to buy items that give you better stats, or to level up a character to 80, but that’s not pay to win.

Pay to win is when the best free player (someone with skill and time) is strictly weaker (by equipment/traits/etc) than the best cash player (someone with neither skill nor time, but lots of money), usually by a significant amount, such as a 70% difference in dodge chance or a 40% difference in damage.

What we have here is that the best cash player can become exactly as powerful as the best free player.

It’s not the same.

Because a cash player can be equal simply kills the game for me . It stops being a game where you earn status and rewards, you just buy it. I don’t wish to play in an environment where the company is fine with you just buying your way through the game. If you are fine with it, go and have fun. I am done here.

Diva.4706:

Because a cash player can be equal simply kills the game for me . It stops being a game where you earn status and rewards, you just buy it. I don’t wish to play in an environment where the company is fine with you just buying your way through the game. If you are fine with it, go and have fun. I am done here.

Good riddance, I’d say. I’m perfectly fine with people paying to miss out on the fun in the game.

Seeing it like that, CoD is P2W also cause I could pay a pro player to play instead of me.

Diva.4706:

Because a cash player can be equal simply kills the game for me . It stops being a game where you earn status and rewards, you just buy it. I don’t wish to play in an environment where the company is fine with you just buying your way through the game. If you are fine with it, go and have fun. I am done here.

That choice is yours to make. I’m sorry that you are choosing being “right” over choosing to continue to enjoy a game you paid for. Good luck in your next game.