Guild Wars 2

And the worst is that the LS team is really proud to take another 4 month break that will bring us a new mini-map. They rotate on a 1 month work / 3 month break. What is arenanet doing with their 350 workers ? Why we only see a small team work after 2 years ? Where is something that derail in this big company ? Where is the mark at how the work of these 350 workers is never seen ? What is happening in this studio ?

Simzani.4318:

And the worst is that the LS team is really proud to take another 4 month break that will bring us a new mini-map. They rotate on a 1 month work / 3 month break. What is arenanet doing with their 350 workers ? Why we only see a small team work after 2 years ? Where is something that derail in this big company ? Where is the mark at how the work of these 350 workers is never seen ? What is happening in this studio ?

This should be re-posted by every single person on thee forums and spammed in ever map in game.

Best post I have seen in awhile.

Vayne.8563:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

phys.7689:

Beldin.5498:

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

Beldin.5498:

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

If you’re complaining about this content, which is widely considered the end-game content for pretty much every other MMO out there, then what content do you expect to get when you’re asking for an endgame here?

Running Underworld 2920 times in 8 years .. that is fun endgame for the GW1 players i always have the feeling.

Repeating stuff is always boring .. as long as it is not Underworld.

This means nothing to me, because I don’t know what Underworld is, and I’m sure a lot of other users also don’t know. Be descriptive, man. :-|

No problem .. i also don’t know what Underworld is .. but reading the forums and
especially comments from all those GW1 fans then there were maybe 3 zones
called Underworld, The Deep and Ulgoz (or something like that) that were soooo
amazing that they played them endloss for 8 years .. and while everything else
gets boring after doing it 5 times, those zones were sooo amazing that they will
not be boring even if you continue playing them until 2250 at least

Underworld was one of the main dungeons in the game, but it was a dungeon designed like a small zone, with like 8 quests in it. It was relatively fairly difficult (compared to the standard content in the game)
you can think of it like dungeons are in this game, except larger, with more paths all at once.
People didnt always go in with the intent to play the whole zone, they would sometimes just do a couple areas.

Full party death kicked you out of the instance.
you could get tired of it, but it was fairly challenging to complete, and it would take many runs before you saw/did everything for most people. Different order events made the run a bit different depending who you played with.
it had good random drops from enemies, so people were happy to even play the parts of it they liked, as opposed to the whole thing.

game design wise, it was a pretty good game mode.

they also added new dungeons, so people who played it for 6-8 years actually wanted to play it for that time.

I was thinking about this.

Do you think the UW design was so good because of the quests/map textures and overall open-ended nature of the content?

Looking back and thinking about it, I think the reason why UW was so fun was that:

a. It was a challenge that you could LOSE.
b. There were penalties for dying.
c. Both a. and b. meant that team cooperation was paramount.
d. The rewards were rewarding if your party played well, you lost money if your party played poorly (due to the entrance fee and being kicked out for a full wipe.)

There is not a single dungeon in game that meets ANY of those criteria, EXCEPT maybe a few particular fractals or a few Arah paths.

Any composition can complete nearly any path. You can’t LOSE. Your team may rage quit if it’s terribad, but you can’t actually lose if you keep trying.

There are no penalties for dying. None.

Teams don’t NEED to plan. Sure the speedrunners will might stack, some pugs may decide which warrior is taking which banner, but overall it’s enter dungeon and YOLO mode everything. Bearbow rangers, flamethrower engis, staff guardians, full necro party? Who cares, the content is so easy that you hardly have to plan. Maybe put some walls down here and there for reflects… but really… there’s just no complexity.

Finally, the last point. Rewards. There seems to be two categories of rewards in this game. The guaranteed reward and the so-RNG-gated-that-you’ll-never-see-it-drop reward. Why not something in between? Why not content that is more rewarding the better your team performs?

It was good for a percentage of the playerbase. I’m relatively sure most people that played Guild Wars 1 never even attempted the Underworld and that’s the problem.

The people who liked it and swear by it, in my opinion are nowhere close to any kind of majority. Which might be why Anet didn’t make something else like that.

I’m relatively sure most people who played Guild Wars 1 attempted Underworld many times and enjoyed it.

The people who liked it and swear by it, in my opinion, are the clear majority. ANET should make something else like it.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Vayne.8563:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

phys.7689:

Beldin.5498:

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

Beldin.5498:

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

If you’re complaining about this content, which is widely considered the end-game content for pretty much every other MMO out there, then what content do you expect to get when you’re asking for an endgame here?

Running Underworld 2920 times in 8 years .. that is fun endgame for the GW1 players i always have the feeling.

Repeating stuff is always boring .. as long as it is not Underworld.

This means nothing to me, because I don’t know what Underworld is, and I’m sure a lot of other users also don’t know. Be descriptive, man. :-|

No problem .. i also don’t know what Underworld is .. but reading the forums and
especially comments from all those GW1 fans then there were maybe 3 zones
called Underworld, The Deep and Ulgoz (or something like that) that were soooo
amazing that they played them endloss for 8 years .. and while everything else
gets boring after doing it 5 times, those zones were sooo amazing that they will
not be boring even if you continue playing them until 2250 at least

Underworld was one of the main dungeons in the game, but it was a dungeon designed like a small zone, with like 8 quests in it. It was relatively fairly difficult (compared to the standard content in the game)
you can think of it like dungeons are in this game, except larger, with more paths all at once.
People didnt always go in with the intent to play the whole zone, they would sometimes just do a couple areas.

Full party death kicked you out of the instance.
you could get tired of it, but it was fairly challenging to complete, and it would take many runs before you saw/did everything for most people. Different order events made the run a bit different depending who you played with.
it had good random drops from enemies, so people were happy to even play the parts of it they liked, as opposed to the whole thing.

game design wise, it was a pretty good game mode.

they also added new dungeons, so people who played it for 6-8 years actually wanted to play it for that time.

I was thinking about this.

Do you think the UW design was so good because of the quests/map textures and overall open-ended nature of the content?

Looking back and thinking about it, I think the reason why UW was so fun was that:

a. It was a challenge that you could LOSE.
b. There were penalties for dying.
c. Both a. and b. meant that team cooperation was paramount.
d. The rewards were rewarding if your party played well, you lost money if your party played poorly (due to the entrance fee and being kicked out for a full wipe.)

There is not a single dungeon in game that meets ANY of those criteria, EXCEPT maybe a few particular fractals or a few Arah paths.

Any composition can complete nearly any path. You can’t LOSE. Your team may rage quit if it’s terribad, but you can’t actually lose if you keep trying.

There are no penalties for dying. None.

Teams don’t NEED to plan. Sure the speedrunners will might stack, some pugs may decide which warrior is taking which banner, but overall it’s enter dungeon and YOLO mode everything. Bearbow rangers, flamethrower engis, staff guardians, full necro party? Who cares, the content is so easy that you hardly have to plan. Maybe put some walls down here and there for reflects… but really… there’s just no complexity.

Finally, the last point. Rewards. There seems to be two categories of rewards in this game. The guaranteed reward and the so-RNG-gated-that-you’ll-never-see-it-drop reward. Why not something in between? Why not content that is more rewarding the better your team performs?

It was good for a percentage of the playerbase. I’m relatively sure most people that played Guild Wars 1 never even attempted the Underworld and that’s the problem.

The people who liked it and swear by it, in my opinion are nowhere close to any kind of majority. Which might be why Anet didn’t make something else like that.

I’m relatively sure most people who played Guild Wars 1 attempted Underworld many times and enjoyed it.

The people who liked it and swear by it, in my opinion, are the clear majority. ANET should make something else like it.

If they were a clear majority, what’s the reason that Anet hasn’t made that or anything like it?

Vayne.8563:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Vayne.8563:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

phys.7689:

Beldin.5498:

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

Beldin.5498:

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

If you’re complaining about this content, which is widely considered the end-game content for pretty much every other MMO out there, then what content do you expect to get when you’re asking for an endgame here?

Running Underworld 2920 times in 8 years .. that is fun endgame for the GW1 players i always have the feeling.

Repeating stuff is always boring .. as long as it is not Underworld.

This means nothing to me, because I don’t know what Underworld is, and I’m sure a lot of other users also don’t know. Be descriptive, man. :-|

No problem .. i also don’t know what Underworld is .. but reading the forums and
especially comments from all those GW1 fans then there were maybe 3 zones
called Underworld, The Deep and Ulgoz (or something like that) that were soooo
amazing that they played them endloss for 8 years .. and while everything else
gets boring after doing it 5 times, those zones were sooo amazing that they will
not be boring even if you continue playing them until 2250 at least

Underworld was one of the main dungeons in the game, but it was a dungeon designed like a small zone, with like 8 quests in it. It was relatively fairly difficult (compared to the standard content in the game)
you can think of it like dungeons are in this game, except larger, with more paths all at once.
People didnt always go in with the intent to play the whole zone, they would sometimes just do a couple areas.

Full party death kicked you out of the instance.
you could get tired of it, but it was fairly challenging to complete, and it would take many runs before you saw/did everything for most people. Different order events made the run a bit different depending who you played with.
it had good random drops from enemies, so people were happy to even play the parts of it they liked, as opposed to the whole thing.

game design wise, it was a pretty good game mode.

they also added new dungeons, so people who played it for 6-8 years actually wanted to play it for that time.

I was thinking about this.

Do you think the UW design was so good because of the quests/map textures and overall open-ended nature of the content?

Looking back and thinking about it, I think the reason why UW was so fun was that:

a. It was a challenge that you could LOSE.
b. There were penalties for dying.
c. Both a. and b. meant that team cooperation was paramount.
d. The rewards were rewarding if your party played well, you lost money if your party played poorly (due to the entrance fee and being kicked out for a full wipe.)

There is not a single dungeon in game that meets ANY of those criteria, EXCEPT maybe a few particular fractals or a few Arah paths.

Any composition can complete nearly any path. You can’t LOSE. Your team may rage quit if it’s terribad, but you can’t actually lose if you keep trying.

There are no penalties for dying. None.

Teams don’t NEED to plan. Sure the speedrunners will might stack, some pugs may decide which warrior is taking which banner, but overall it’s enter dungeon and YOLO mode everything. Bearbow rangers, flamethrower engis, staff guardians, full necro party? Who cares, the content is so easy that you hardly have to plan. Maybe put some walls down here and there for reflects… but really… there’s just no complexity.

Finally, the last point. Rewards. There seems to be two categories of rewards in this game. The guaranteed reward and the so-RNG-gated-that-you’ll-never-see-it-drop reward. Why not something in between? Why not content that is more rewarding the better your team performs?

It was good for a percentage of the playerbase. I’m relatively sure most people that played Guild Wars 1 never even attempted the Underworld and that’s the problem.

The people who liked it and swear by it, in my opinion are nowhere close to any kind of majority. Which might be why Anet didn’t make something else like that.

I’m relatively sure most people who played Guild Wars 1 attempted Underworld many times and enjoyed it.

The people who liked it and swear by it, in my opinion, are the clear majority. ANET should make something else like it.

If they were a clear majority, what’s the reason that Anet hasn’t made that or anything like it?

I could put forth a variety of hypotheses. Would you like that? At the end of the day only ANET knows.

That was my point when I literally reversed your sentiment.

Let’s be clear: just because something IS a certain way, doesn’t mean that’s the way it OUGHT to be.

Vayne.8563:

If they were a clear majority, what’s the reason that Anet hasn’t made that or anything like it?

vayne, too much of your reasoning begins with the assumption anet will always do the best possible thing in any situation.
they are fallible, they make mistakes, and sometimes they dont precisely make a mistake, but choose a different method.

they did try to do underworld stuff, but they rushed it, simplified it, and didnt make it scale well with different size groups.

Im pretty sure many people attempted underworld(or similar dungeons), and played them many times, seeing as how the only ectoplasms in gw1 were from these instances, and there were many, many many ectoplasms used sold, stored throughout the life of gw1. And they didnt drop like candy.

Some times in the attempt to make a better version of something you fail. ANet is not perfect.
They tried to improve the formula, and they didnt really achieve that, in terms of longevity, and desire to do the mode.

Simzani.4318:

And the worst is that the LS team is really proud to take another 4 month break that will bring us a new mini-map. They rotate on a 1 month work / 3 month break. What is arenanet doing with their 350 workers ? Why we only see a small team work after 2 years ? Where is something that derail in this big company ? Where is the mark at how the work of these 350 workers is never seen ? What is happening in this studio ?

No one is taking a break. Other projects are being worked on. That’s all.

Content isn’t always delivered when it’s completed. You make it sound like the living word team all went on vacation at the same time. The living world team does other stuff as well.

Vayne.8563:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Vayne.8563:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

phys.7689:

Beldin.5498:

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

Beldin.5498:

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

If you’re complaining about this content, which is widely considered the end-game content for pretty much every other MMO out there, then what content do you expect to get when you’re asking for an endgame here?

Running Underworld 2920 times in 8 years .. that is fun endgame for the GW1 players i always have the feeling.

Repeating stuff is always boring .. as long as it is not Underworld.

This means nothing to me, because I don’t know what Underworld is, and I’m sure a lot of other users also don’t know. Be descriptive, man. :-|

No problem .. i also don’t know what Underworld is .. but reading the forums and
especially comments from all those GW1 fans then there were maybe 3 zones
called Underworld, The Deep and Ulgoz (or something like that) that were soooo
amazing that they played them endloss for 8 years .. and while everything else
gets boring after doing it 5 times, those zones were sooo amazing that they will
not be boring even if you continue playing them until 2250 at least

Underworld was one of the main dungeons in the game, but it was a dungeon designed like a small zone, with like 8 quests in it. It was relatively fairly difficult (compared to the standard content in the game)
you can think of it like dungeons are in this game, except larger, with more paths all at once.
People didnt always go in with the intent to play the whole zone, they would sometimes just do a couple areas.

Full party death kicked you out of the instance.
you could get tired of it, but it was fairly challenging to complete, and it would take many runs before you saw/did everything for most people. Different order events made the run a bit different depending who you played with.
it had good random drops from enemies, so people were happy to even play the parts of it they liked, as opposed to the whole thing.

game design wise, it was a pretty good game mode.

they also added new dungeons, so people who played it for 6-8 years actually wanted to play it for that time.

I was thinking about this.

Do you think the UW design was so good because of the quests/map textures and overall open-ended nature of the content?

Looking back and thinking about it, I think the reason why UW was so fun was that:

a. It was a challenge that you could LOSE.
b. There were penalties for dying.
c. Both a. and b. meant that team cooperation was paramount.
d. The rewards were rewarding if your party played well, you lost money if your party played poorly (due to the entrance fee and being kicked out for a full wipe.)

There is not a single dungeon in game that meets ANY of those criteria, EXCEPT maybe a few particular fractals or a few Arah paths.

Any composition can complete nearly any path. You can’t LOSE. Your team may rage quit if it’s terribad, but you can’t actually lose if you keep trying.

There are no penalties for dying. None.

Teams don’t NEED to plan. Sure the speedrunners will might stack, some pugs may decide which warrior is taking which banner, but overall it’s enter dungeon and YOLO mode everything. Bearbow rangers, flamethrower engis, staff guardians, full necro party? Who cares, the content is so easy that you hardly have to plan. Maybe put some walls down here and there for reflects… but really… there’s just no complexity.

Finally, the last point. Rewards. There seems to be two categories of rewards in this game. The guaranteed reward and the so-RNG-gated-that-you’ll-never-see-it-drop reward. Why not something in between? Why not content that is more rewarding the better your team performs?

It was good for a percentage of the playerbase. I’m relatively sure most people that played Guild Wars 1 never even attempted the Underworld and that’s the problem.

The people who liked it and swear by it, in my opinion are nowhere close to any kind of majority. Which might be why Anet didn’t make something else like that.

I’m relatively sure most people who played Guild Wars 1 attempted Underworld many times and enjoyed it.

The people who liked it and swear by it, in my opinion, are the clear majority. ANET should make something else like it.

If they were a clear majority, what’s the reason that Anet hasn’t made that or anything like it?

To innovate ofc. GW 1 had a lot of unquestionably popular features that anet refuses to carry over. A lot of these features made GW1 popular in the first place , but since making these features would be unoriginal in gw2, there is no place for them.

@scipio

Believe that if you like but it’s probably not true. So many people in GW 1 soloed, even before heroes were introduced. I guarantee you none of those people did UW. Many people just PvPed and ignored PvE. Those guys didn’t do it.

In almost every game I’ve known over years, we find from dev quotes that most people never completed the hardest content.

I wonder why anyone would think Guild Wars 1 was some kind of exception.

Vayne.8563:

Mizenhauer.6713:

Frankly raids would be better without the treadmill. I really loved wow and the raids, but never liked how the gear upgrades made prior raids pointless, save for small group fun. That was alleviated somewhat by their introduction of a wardrobe equivalent, breathing some life and purpose into those dusty raids. But it was still trivialized by virtue of stat increases. That can only happen to a certain extent here (assuming ascended is the end, but I wouldn’t be surprised if jewel crafters are eventually given the task of crafting infusions as a tiny bit of vertical progression). Here, a raid couldn’t die. It would, at worst, become something g tk be blown through, like the dungeons here. I’m very curious about these ai changes that have been worked on. Learning the boss dance is fun, but it would be interesting if the bosses were able to respond accordingly.

I think a lot of people raided because of the treadmill though. WIthout that loot motivation I don’t think most people would do it.

Take a dungeon like TA Aetherblade path. Reward isn’t enough, people don’t do it. That’s how raiding draws in so many people. It’s the only way to get what you want.

I know a lot of people who did raiding to get stuff but didn’t enjoy it.

I think a lot of people raided because of the enjoyable content though. Generally speaking I know a lot of people who confirm my point, including my son and my wife.

Take TA Aetherblade, people don’t play it so clearly the only reason for that is its rewards.

Sigh.

Vayne.8563:

@scipio

Believe that if you like but it’s probably not true. So many people in GW 1 soloed, even before heroes were introduced. I guarantee you none of those people did UW. Many people just PvPed and ignored PvE. Those guys didn’t do it.

In almost every game I’ve known over years, we find from dev quotes that most people never completed the hardest content.

I wonder why anyone would think Guild Wars 1 was some kind of exception.

we would be talking about pve people obviously, and you could defeat paths of underworld with henchmen, and some solo. Yes, many people who solo are not afraid of difficult content. It became easier and more feasible when heroes were added, but you do realize heroes were added less than 2 years after release?

so yeah many people soloed, and soloing didnt mean you couldnt attempt elite instances.
think about it, every single ecto in gw1 was obtained by someone playing an elite instance.
do you still think that was a rare occurence?

also note, end game, that is not solo exclusive

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

@scipio

Believe that if you like but it’s probably not true. So many people in GW 1 soloed, even before heroes were introduced. I guarantee you none of those people did UW. Many people just PvPed and ignored PvE. Those guys didn’t do it.

In almost every game I’ve known over years, we find from dev quotes that most people never completed the hardest content.

I wonder why anyone would think Guild Wars 1 was some kind of exception.

we would be talking about pve people obviously, and you could defeat paths of underworld with henchmen, and some solo. Yes, many people who solo are not afraid of difficult content. It became easier and more feasible when heroes were added, but you do realize heroes were added less than 2 years after release?

so yeah many people soloed, and soloing didnt mean you couldnt attempt elite instances.
think about it, every single ecto in gw1 was obtained by someone playing an elite instance.
do you still think that was a rare occurence?

also note, end game, that is not solo exclusive

Okay this is a bit misleading.

Heroes were added two years after release, but you could only take 3 of htem at that time. Henchmen were never allowed into the mists.

So no one could solo the Underworld in the first two years, and I’m extremely skeptical that anyone beat it with three heroes. I believe the game was well over five years old before you could take seven heroes, which they probably implemented because of the lower population.

Vayne.8563:

@scipio

Believe that if you like but it’s probably not true. So many people in GW 1 soloed, even before heroes were introduced. I guarantee you none of those people did UW. Many people just PvPed and ignored PvE. Those guys didn’t do it.

In almost every game I’ve known over years, we find from dev quotes that most people never completed the hardest content.

I wonder why anyone would think Guild Wars 1 was some kind of exception.

I never said I meant UW or even hard content. And I have to agree with the “Many people just PvPed and ignored PvE”. I mostly meant PvP , but it’s true for a lot of PvE parts as well. But on PvP : GW1 had the best PvP I ever played, Observer, Rating , tournaments, rewards , variety of game modes. In gw2 almost none of these returned, and the only mode we got is not even similar to the ones in 1.

I think I can say what we had was well functioning, popular and had levels from casual to hardcore. Now look at GW2 PvP: I can’t even spot a similarity.

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

@scipio

Believe that if you like but it’s probably not true. So many people in GW 1 soloed, even before heroes were introduced. I guarantee you none of those people did UW. Many people just PvPed and ignored PvE. Those guys didn’t do it.

In almost every game I’ve known over years, we find from dev quotes that most people never completed the hardest content.

I wonder why anyone would think Guild Wars 1 was some kind of exception.

we would be talking about pve people obviously, and you could defeat paths of underworld with henchmen, and some solo. Yes, many people who solo are not afraid of difficult content. It became easier and more feasible when heroes were added, but you do realize heroes were added less than 2 years after release?

so yeah many people soloed, and soloing didnt mean you couldnt attempt elite instances.
think about it, every single ecto in gw1 was obtained by someone playing an elite instance.
do you still think that was a rare occurence?

also note, end game, that is not solo exclusive

Okay this is a bit misleading.

Heroes were added two years after release, but you could only take 3 of htem at that time. Henchmen were never allowed into the mists.

So no one could solo the Underworld in the first two years, and I’m extremely skeptical that anyone beat it with three heroes. I believe the game was well over five years old before you could take seven heroes, which they probably implemented because of the lower population.

I definitely solod the first few bits with my trap ranger pretty early on. Def not the whole thing though.

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

@scipio

Believe that if you like but it’s probably not true. So many people in GW 1 soloed, even before heroes were introduced. I guarantee you none of those people did UW. Many people just PvPed and ignored PvE. Those guys didn’t do it.

In almost every game I’ve known over years, we find from dev quotes that most people never completed the hardest content.

I wonder why anyone would think Guild Wars 1 was some kind of exception.

I never said I meant UW or even hard content. And I have to agree with the “Many people just PvPed and ignored PvE”. I mostly meant PvP , but it’s true for a lot of PvE parts as well. But on PvP : GW1 had the best PvP I ever played, Observer, Rating , tournaments, rewards , variety of game modes. In gw2 almost none of these returned, and the only mode we got is not even similar to the ones in 1.

I think I can say what we had was well functioning, popular and had levels from casual to hardcore. Now look at GW2 PvP: I can’t even spot a similarity.

Did you notice that as Guild Wars 1 got older and older, it shifted it’s focus away from PvP? Because I noticed that.

Many new PvE only skills. Less PvP support in each update. Again, Anet found which side their bread was buttered on.

But I believe they didn’t find it with the hard core “raiding” crowd. The UW, DOA guys. THey found it with the casual guys that just did more basic stuff.

That’s why they made Guild Wars 2 the way they did. In my opinion.

And you know, I have 50/50 in my HoM and I have my GWAMM title, but I almost never did end game instances nor did anyone in my guild or circle of friends.

It looks like a lot of peope do it, because they all crowd into Temple of Ages, but I believe it’s a small percentage of people who played the game.

Because many people don’t like to group, don’t like to speed run, don’t like to run specific builds, don’t like to be yelled at if they make a mistake, dont’ like to die over and over again to repeat content and pay a gold to get in.

Most people didn’t enjoy that…in my opinion.

But those that did, absolutely loved it.

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

@scipio

Believe that if you like but it’s probably not true. So many people in GW 1 soloed, even before heroes were introduced. I guarantee you none of those people did UW. Many people just PvPed and ignored PvE. Those guys didn’t do it.

In almost every game I’ve known over years, we find from dev quotes that most people never completed the hardest content.

I wonder why anyone would think Guild Wars 1 was some kind of exception.

I never said I meant UW or even hard content. And I have to agree with the “Many people just PvPed and ignored PvE”. I mostly meant PvP , but it’s true for a lot of PvE parts as well. But on PvP : GW1 had the best PvP I ever played, Observer, Rating , tournaments, rewards , variety of game modes. In gw2 almost none of these returned, and the only mode we got is not even similar to the ones in 1.

I think I can say what we had was well functioning, popular and had levels from casual to hardcore. Now look at GW2 PvP: I can’t even spot a similarity.

Did you notice that as Guild Wars 1 got older and older, it shifted it’s focus away from PvP? Because I noticed that.

Many new PvE only skills. Less PvP support in each update. Again, Anet found which side their bread was buttered on.

But I believe they didn’t find it with the hard core “raiding” crowd. The UW, DOA guys. THey found it with the casual guys that just did more basic stuff.

That’s why they made Guild Wars 2 the way they did. In my opinion.

And you know, I have 50/50 in my HoM and I have my GWAMM title, but I almost never did end game instances nor did anyone in my guild or circle of friends.

It looks like a lot of peope do it, because they all crowd into Temple of Ages, but I believe it’s a small percentage of people who played the game.

Because many people don’t like to group, don’t like to speed run, don’t like to run specific builds, don’t like to be yelled at if they make a mistake, dont’ like to die over and over again to repeat content and pay a gold to get in.

Most people didn’t enjoy that…in my opinion.

But those that did, absolutely loved it.

To be honest, I think after factions they didn’t need to add anything to pvp, like I said they already had modes to casuals and to hardcores, and it already had variety with it’s 8 game modes and god knows how many maps.

But let’s turn our head to PvE . With the launch of the game we got UW & FoW ,yeah? After that they they decided to release another elite area known as Sorrow’s Furnace.
After that, with the release of factions they released even harder elite areas with bigger teams and after that DoA (And with the release of the battle isles the tomb of primeval kings). These were all HARD. If UW/FoW wasn’t that popular at the first place, why did they keep rolling out these? Not to mention Hard mode.

Now: GW2 didn’t start with any area considered as “elite”. I don’t think it’s because they think it would be unpopular. Also I think the some goes with expansions: GW1 working model with multiple released campaign or expansion(alongside with other games ofc).Can’t do that again , would be unoriginal, so Living World it is!

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

@scipio

Believe that if you like but it’s probably not true. So many people in GW 1 soloed, even before heroes were introduced. I guarantee you none of those people did UW. Many people just PvPed and ignored PvE. Those guys didn’t do it.

In almost every game I’ve known over years, we find from dev quotes that most people never completed the hardest content.

I wonder why anyone would think Guild Wars 1 was some kind of exception.

I never said I meant UW or even hard content. And I have to agree with the “Many people just PvPed and ignored PvE”. I mostly meant PvP , but it’s true for a lot of PvE parts as well. But on PvP : GW1 had the best PvP I ever played, Observer, Rating , tournaments, rewards , variety of game modes. In gw2 almost none of these returned, and the only mode we got is not even similar to the ones in 1.

I think I can say what we had was well functioning, popular and had levels from casual to hardcore. Now look at GW2 PvP: I can’t even spot a similarity.

Did you notice that as Guild Wars 1 got older and older, it shifted it’s focus away from PvP? Because I noticed that.

Many new PvE only skills. Less PvP support in each update. Again, Anet found which side their bread was buttered on.

But I believe they didn’t find it with the hard core “raiding” crowd. The UW, DOA guys. THey found it with the casual guys that just did more basic stuff.

That’s why they made Guild Wars 2 the way they did. In my opinion.

And you know, I have 50/50 in my HoM and I have my GWAMM title, but I almost never did end game instances nor did anyone in my guild or circle of friends.

It looks like a lot of peope do it, because they all crowd into Temple of Ages, but I believe it’s a small percentage of people who played the game.

Because many people don’t like to group, don’t like to speed run, don’t like to run specific builds, don’t like to be yelled at if they make a mistake, dont’ like to die over and over again to repeat content and pay a gold to get in.

Most people didn’t enjoy that…in my opinion.

But those that did, absolutely loved it.

Yeah i forgot no hench, but there were a few builds that could solo parts of it. many people duoed, i duoed and trioed wth a couple of my friends. Once heroes came out the door was open for low man runs.
a lot of people did it though, and you didnt need people yelling about your build/speedrun/etc, because it could be you alone, or you with a buddy. They opened it up to every body.

now, heres the other thing, you dont need to make all content for everyone, that is not really even your goal, as an MMO developer. Your goal is to make an online world, with many facets, and many ways to play. This is how you get such a large amount of people.

WoW contary to popular belief, is not just elite raids, ffxi is not just leveling jobs, Everything in the game shouldnt be designed that everyone has to do it. This is another flaw i feel gw2 has. They try to make people do everything. I want a legendary/ascended i have to craft. I want legendary i have to map complete. (i want to level, i have to map complete) i want traits i have to map complete. some traits require wvw now.
i think each mode should give items that make sense for that mode, and maybe something exclusive, but its bad to keep putting basic features, or things designed for everyone to have, around what should be opt in content.

imagine in gw1, if you could only get some runes from gvg, or by map completing the whole game.
Its ok if not everyone does something. I bet most people never map complete 100% does that mean they should stop making maps?

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

@scipio

Believe that if you like but it’s probably not true. So many people in GW 1 soloed, even before heroes were introduced. I guarantee you none of those people did UW. Many people just PvPed and ignored PvE. Those guys didn’t do it.

In almost every game I’ve known over years, we find from dev quotes that most people never completed the hardest content.

I wonder why anyone would think Guild Wars 1 was some kind of exception.

I never said I meant UW or even hard content. And I have to agree with the “Many people just PvPed and ignored PvE”. I mostly meant PvP , but it’s true for a lot of PvE parts as well. But on PvP : GW1 had the best PvP I ever played, Observer, Rating , tournaments, rewards , variety of game modes. In gw2 almost none of these returned, and the only mode we got is not even similar to the ones in 1.

I think I can say what we had was well functioning, popular and had levels from casual to hardcore. Now look at GW2 PvP: I can’t even spot a similarity.

Did you notice that as Guild Wars 1 got older and older, it shifted it’s focus away from PvP? Because I noticed that.

Many new PvE only skills. Less PvP support in each update. Again, Anet found which side their bread was buttered on.

But I believe they didn’t find it with the hard core “raiding” crowd. The UW, DOA guys. THey found it with the casual guys that just did more basic stuff.

That’s why they made Guild Wars 2 the way they did. In my opinion.

And you know, I have 50/50 in my HoM and I have my GWAMM title, but I almost never did end game instances nor did anyone in my guild or circle of friends.

It looks like a lot of peope do it, because they all crowd into Temple of Ages, but I believe it’s a small percentage of people who played the game.

Because many people don’t like to group, don’t like to speed run, don’t like to run specific builds, don’t like to be yelled at if they make a mistake, dont’ like to die over and over again to repeat content and pay a gold to get in.

Most people didn’t enjoy that…in my opinion.

But those that did, absolutely loved it.

To be honest, I think after factions they didn’t need to add anything to pvp, like I said they already had modes to casuals and to hardcores, and it already had variety with it’s 8 game modes and god knows how many maps.

But let’s turn our head to PvE . With the launch of the game we got UW & FoW ,yeah? After that they they decided to release another elite area known as Sorrow’s Furnace.
After that, with the release of factions they released even harder elite areas with bigger teams and after that DoA (And with the release of the battle isles the tomb of primeval kings). These were all HARD. If UW/FoW wasn’t that popular at the first place, why did they keep rolling out these? Not to mention Hard mode.

Now: GW2 didn’t start with any area considered as “elite”. I don’t think it’s because they think it would be unpopular. Also I think the some goes with expansions: GW1 working model with multiple released campaign or expansion(alongside with other games ofc).Can’t do that again , would be unoriginal, so Living World it is!

Are you really comparing Sorrow’s Furnace to UW? Really? Sorrow’s furnace was casual and a whole lot smaller. Sure it was an elite area, but it wasn’t the Deep or Urgoz’s warren.

They added a hard hard area with each game, just like Lotro added raids to each game, even though only 10% of the player base ever raided, according to one of their devs.

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

@scipio

Believe that if you like but it’s probably not true. So many people in GW 1 soloed, even before heroes were introduced. I guarantee you none of those people did UW. Many people just PvPed and ignored PvE. Those guys didn’t do it.

In almost every game I’ve known over years, we find from dev quotes that most people never completed the hardest content.

I wonder why anyone would think Guild Wars 1 was some kind of exception.

I never said I meant UW or even hard content. And I have to agree with the “Many people just PvPed and ignored PvE”. I mostly meant PvP , but it’s true for a lot of PvE parts as well. But on PvP : GW1 had the best PvP I ever played, Observer, Rating , tournaments, rewards , variety of game modes. In gw2 almost none of these returned, and the only mode we got is not even similar to the ones in 1.

I think I can say what we had was well functioning, popular and had levels from casual to hardcore. Now look at GW2 PvP: I can’t even spot a similarity.

Did you notice that as Guild Wars 1 got older and older, it shifted it’s focus away from PvP? Because I noticed that.

Many new PvE only skills. Less PvP support in each update. Again, Anet found which side their bread was buttered on.

But I believe they didn’t find it with the hard core “raiding” crowd. The UW, DOA guys. THey found it with the casual guys that just did more basic stuff.

That’s why they made Guild Wars 2 the way they did. In my opinion.

And you know, I have 50/50 in my HoM and I have my GWAMM title, but I almost never did end game instances nor did anyone in my guild or circle of friends.

It looks like a lot of peope do it, because they all crowd into Temple of Ages, but I believe it’s a small percentage of people who played the game.

Because many people don’t like to group, don’t like to speed run, don’t like to run specific builds, don’t like to be yelled at if they make a mistake, dont’ like to die over and over again to repeat content and pay a gold to get in.

Most people didn’t enjoy that…in my opinion.

But those that did, absolutely loved it.

To be honest, I think after factions they didn’t need to add anything to pvp, like I said they already had modes to casuals and to hardcores, and it already had variety with it’s 8 game modes and god knows how many maps.

But let’s turn our head to PvE . With the launch of the game we got UW & FoW ,yeah? After that they they decided to release another elite area known as Sorrow’s Furnace.
After that, with the release of factions they released even harder elite areas with bigger teams and after that DoA (And with the release of the battle isles the tomb of primeval kings). These were all HARD. If UW/FoW wasn’t that popular at the first place, why did they keep rolling out these? Not to mention Hard mode.

Now: GW2 didn’t start with any area considered as “elite”. I don’t think it’s because they think it would be unpopular. Also I think the some goes with expansions: GW1 working model with multiple released campaign or expansion(alongside with other games ofc).Can’t do that again , would be unoriginal, so Living World it is!

Are you really comparing Sorrow’s Furnace to UW? Really? Sorrow’s furnace was casual and a whole lot smaller. Sure it was an elite area, but it wasn’t the Deep or Urgoz’s warren.

They added a hard hard area with each game, just like Lotro added raids to each game, even though only 10% of the player base ever raided, according to one of their devs.

Compare? No. All I said was the first content patch they released (Probably based on numbers , how many played UW/FoW) was Sorrows (For those who don’t know, it was a free update, introduction of uniques and even a new zone + elite dungeon) an elite area. After that they decided to increase the difficulty with the newly released elite areas. I don’t think because it was unpopular

Also you completely ignored my point.

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

@scipio

Believe that if you like but it’s probably not true. So many people in GW 1 soloed, even before heroes were introduced. I guarantee you none of those people did UW. Many people just PvPed and ignored PvE. Those guys didn’t do it.

In almost every game I’ve known over years, we find from dev quotes that most people never completed the hardest content.

I wonder why anyone would think Guild Wars 1 was some kind of exception.

I never said I meant UW or even hard content. And I have to agree with the “Many people just PvPed and ignored PvE”. I mostly meant PvP , but it’s true for a lot of PvE parts as well. But on PvP : GW1 had the best PvP I ever played, Observer, Rating , tournaments, rewards , variety of game modes. In gw2 almost none of these returned, and the only mode we got is not even similar to the ones in 1.

I think I can say what we had was well functioning, popular and had levels from casual to hardcore. Now look at GW2 PvP: I can’t even spot a similarity.

Did you notice that as Guild Wars 1 got older and older, it shifted it’s focus away from PvP? Because I noticed that.

Many new PvE only skills. Less PvP support in each update. Again, Anet found which side their bread was buttered on.

But I believe they didn’t find it with the hard core “raiding” crowd. The UW, DOA guys. THey found it with the casual guys that just did more basic stuff.

That’s why they made Guild Wars 2 the way they did. In my opinion.

And you know, I have 50/50 in my HoM and I have my GWAMM title, but I almost never did end game instances nor did anyone in my guild or circle of friends.

It looks like a lot of peope do it, because they all crowd into Temple of Ages, but I believe it’s a small percentage of people who played the game.

Because many people don’t like to group, don’t like to speed run, don’t like to run specific builds, don’t like to be yelled at if they make a mistake, dont’ like to die over and over again to repeat content and pay a gold to get in.

Most people didn’t enjoy that…in my opinion.

But those that did, absolutely loved it.

To be honest, I think after factions they didn’t need to add anything to pvp, like I said they already had modes to casuals and to hardcores, and it already had variety with it’s 8 game modes and god knows how many maps.

But let’s turn our head to PvE . With the launch of the game we got UW & FoW ,yeah? After that they they decided to release another elite area known as Sorrow’s Furnace.
After that, with the release of factions they released even harder elite areas with bigger teams and after that DoA (And with the release of the battle isles the tomb of primeval kings). These were all HARD. If UW/FoW wasn’t that popular at the first place, why did they keep rolling out these? Not to mention Hard mode.

Now: GW2 didn’t start with any area considered as “elite”. I don’t think it’s because they think it would be unpopular. Also I think the some goes with expansions: GW1 working model with multiple released campaign or expansion(alongside with other games ofc).Can’t do that again , would be unoriginal, so Living World it is!

Are you really comparing Sorrow’s Furnace to UW? Really? Sorrow’s furnace was casual and a whole lot smaller. Sure it was an elite area, but it wasn’t the Deep or Urgoz’s warren.

They added a hard hard area with each game, just like Lotro added raids to each game, even though only 10% of the player base ever raided, according to one of their devs.

Compare? No. All I said was the first content patch they released (Probably based on numbers , how many played UW/FoW) was Sorrows (For those who don’t know, it was a free update, introduction of uniques and even a new zone + elite dungeon) an elite area. After that they decided to increase the difficulty with the newly released elite areas. I don’t think because it was unpopular

Also you completely ignored my point.

UW and FoW was significantly bigger than the Deep and Urgoz. Those zones are much faster to finish and more easily done.

Are you sure so many people did UW and FoW.

More to the point, the first elite area they added after those others was smaller and much much easier.

That should tell you something.

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

@scipio

Believe that if you like but it’s probably not true. So many people in GW 1 soloed, even before heroes were introduced. I guarantee you none of those people did UW. Many people just PvPed and ignored PvE. Those guys didn’t do it.

In almost every game I’ve known over years, we find from dev quotes that most people never completed the hardest content.

I wonder why anyone would think Guild Wars 1 was some kind of exception.

I never said I meant UW or even hard content. And I have to agree with the “Many people just PvPed and ignored PvE”. I mostly meant PvP , but it’s true for a lot of PvE parts as well. But on PvP : GW1 had the best PvP I ever played, Observer, Rating , tournaments, rewards , variety of game modes. In gw2 almost none of these returned, and the only mode we got is not even similar to the ones in 1.

I think I can say what we had was well functioning, popular and had levels from casual to hardcore. Now look at GW2 PvP: I can’t even spot a similarity.

Did you notice that as Guild Wars 1 got older and older, it shifted it’s focus away from PvP? Because I noticed that.

Many new PvE only skills. Less PvP support in each update. Again, Anet found which side their bread was buttered on.

But I believe they didn’t find it with the hard core “raiding” crowd. The UW, DOA guys. THey found it with the casual guys that just did more basic stuff.

That’s why they made Guild Wars 2 the way they did. In my opinion.

And you know, I have 50/50 in my HoM and I have my GWAMM title, but I almost never did end game instances nor did anyone in my guild or circle of friends.

It looks like a lot of peope do it, because they all crowd into Temple of Ages, but I believe it’s a small percentage of people who played the game.

Because many people don’t like to group, don’t like to speed run, don’t like to run specific builds, don’t like to be yelled at if they make a mistake, dont’ like to die over and over again to repeat content and pay a gold to get in.

Most people didn’t enjoy that…in my opinion.

But those that did, absolutely loved it.

To be honest, I think after factions they didn’t need to add anything to pvp, like I said they already had modes to casuals and to hardcores, and it already had variety with it’s 8 game modes and god knows how many maps.

But let’s turn our head to PvE . With the launch of the game we got UW & FoW ,yeah? After that they they decided to release another elite area known as Sorrow’s Furnace.
After that, with the release of factions they released even harder elite areas with bigger teams and after that DoA (And with the release of the battle isles the tomb of primeval kings). These were all HARD. If UW/FoW wasn’t that popular at the first place, why did they keep rolling out these? Not to mention Hard mode.

Now: GW2 didn’t start with any area considered as “elite”. I don’t think it’s because they think it would be unpopular. Also I think the some goes with expansions: GW1 working model with multiple released campaign or expansion(alongside with other games ofc).Can’t do that again , would be unoriginal, so Living World it is!

Are you really comparing Sorrow’s Furnace to UW? Really? Sorrow’s furnace was casual and a whole lot smaller. Sure it was an elite area, but it wasn’t the Deep or Urgoz’s warren.

They added a hard hard area with each game, just like Lotro added raids to each game, even though only 10% of the player base ever raided, according to one of their devs.

Compare? No. All I said was the first content patch they released (Probably based on numbers , how many played UW/FoW) was Sorrows (For those who don’t know, it was a free update, introduction of uniques and even a new zone + elite dungeon) an elite area. After that they decided to increase the difficulty with the newly released elite areas. I don’t think because it was unpopular

Also you completely ignored my point.

UW and FoW was significantly bigger than the Deep and Urgoz. Those zones are much faster to finish and more easily done.

Are you sure so many people did UW and FoW.

More to the point, the first elite area they added after those others was smaller and much much easier.

That should tell you something.

UW/FoW is accessible from any campaign and they are full of easily farmable ,generic mobs. Also fun fact: UWSC is much faster than clearing Sorrows chain quest.
Sorrows was the first released elite area after launch and the difficulty only increased after that.

Also you said “It looks like a lot of peope do it, because they all crowd into Temple of Ages” . That means a noticeably large amount of players did it and probably loved it.

Still not my point though

@Scipio

My point is we know that a dev said only 10% of people playing Lotro ever raided or did PvP. We know that the PvP population of Guild Wars 1 was higher than that, but I do remember a dev talking about DOA and how few people ever completed it. I wish I dev would come here and confirm that, because at this late date I’ll never find the quote.

Over years in this industry, we’ve seen devs make hard content that most players never get through, but you think, for some reason, Guild Wars 1 was different.

The elite zones in later games were nowhere near as hard or as long as the ones in Prophecies. Anet spent less and less time on them as the game advanced.

Vayne.8563:

If they were a clear majority, what’s the reason that Anet hasn’t made that or anything like it?

Yes, ArenaNet always acts in accordance with the majority. Haven’t you seen the New Player Experience? It’s met with nothing but universal acclaim!

Nokaru.7831:

Vayne.8563:

If they were a clear majority, what’s the reason that Anet hasn’t made that or anything like it?

Yes, ArenaNet always acts in accordance with the majority. Haven’t you seen the New Player Experience? It’s met with nothing but universal acclaim!

Yes. Anet noticed a majority of people started the game and didn’t continue on, so they made a change and tested it to see if the majority of the people would play longer and stay more engaged.

Thanks for backing me up.

Nokaru.7831:

Vayne.8563:

If they were a clear majority, what’s the reason that Anet hasn’t made that or anything like it?

Yes, ArenaNet always acts in accordance with the majority. Haven’t you seen the New Player Experience? It’s met with nothing but universal acclaim!

Not sure if you realize, but majority doesn’t mean everyone.

Also, forum population is an extreme minority and not representative of general player opinion.

Also, most of the strongly negative reaction to the NPE was from people who admitted to not trying it for themselves, and a surprising number of players who have since given it a chance have posted much more positive feedback.

On the topic of GW1 elite areas, it is very unlikely that anywhere close to a majority of players even attempted them. I don’t have the numbers, but the statistics are out for many other games and their comparable instanced content, and the trend is that, universally, it is a relative few players that ever go near them.

Vayne.8563:

@Scipio

My point is we know that a dev said only 10% of people playing Lotro ever raided or did PvP. We know that the PvP population of Guild Wars 1 was higher than that, but I do remember a dev talking about DOA and how few people ever completed it. I wish I dev would come here and confirm that, because at this late date I’ll never find the quote.

Over years in this industry, we’ve seen devs make hard content that most players never get through, but you think, for some reason, Guild Wars 1 was different.

The elite zones in later games were nowhere near as hard or as long as the ones in Prophecies. Anet spent less and less time on them as the game advanced.

Who said I thought GW1 was different? I’m sure a lot of player didn’t complete the elite areas, YET they still continued to roll them out. Elite areas aren’t meant to hold the entire player population ,why would you think that? Same with PvP. But does that mean they shouldn’t make them? Let’s say Elite areas and a GW1 sized pvp holds additional ~20% player. The last number we heard about sold GW2 copies was 3.5 mill (+1 mil china), that would mean + 1 million active players. But ATM nothing holds the dedicated players but the living story.
My point is I think the development of GW2 follows a big mistake. Be new >> Be successful. Also a little bit of overdo on gemstore side but thats a different story.

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

@Scipio

My point is we know that a dev said only 10% of people playing Lotro ever raided or did PvP. We know that the PvP population of Guild Wars 1 was higher than that, but I do remember a dev talking about DOA and how few people ever completed it. I wish I dev would come here and confirm that, because at this late date I’ll never find the quote.

Over years in this industry, we’ve seen devs make hard content that most players never get through, but you think, for some reason, Guild Wars 1 was different.

The elite zones in later games were nowhere near as hard or as long as the ones in Prophecies. Anet spent less and less time on them as the game advanced.

Who said I thought GW1 was different? I’m sure a lot of player didn’t complete the elite areas, YET they still continued to roll them out. Elite areas aren’t meant to hold the entire player population ,why would you think that? Same with PvP. But does that mean they shouldn’t make them? Let’s say Elite areas and a GW1 sized pvp holds additional ~20% player. The last number we heard about sold GW2 copies was 3.5 mill (+1 mil china), that would mean + 1 million active players. But ATM nothing holds the dedicated players but the living story.
My point is I think the development of GW2 follows a big mistake. Be new >> Be successful. Also a little bit of overdo on gemstore side but thats a different story.

Something like the Fissure of Woe or the Underworld would take a really long time to make. Even after they made it, there’d be no guarantee it would be popular. Much easier to make collections, which they can easily add to and keep the bigger percentage of the playerbase entertained.

If you had to budget time and money, you’d do the same thing.

Anet put a lot of time and energy into TA (aetherblade path), even giving it unique rewards and special achievements. They made EotM for WvWers, even though WvWers don’t tend to like it and are very disparaging about it. What on earth would possess them to spend even more time on demographics of people who may or may not like what you make, particularly if they’re not a clear majority?

It’s far better to cater to a majority of easy to cater to people, than a minority of hard to please people. Not even saying they’re not working on something because, honestly, no one knows.

Anet really needs to give us some indication of what they’re working on.

@Vayne,

Agreed on last sentence. Also I don’t think EotM was for WvWers, it was to play somewhere during long queues, and for that it’s perfect.
And I think we can say there is never a guarantee it will be popular . But I think anet took it too seriously a few times, see SAB world 2 or TA aether. (Also I don’t think the aether unique rewards was that much work)

And yes, obviously it’s easier to cater to people who are easily pleased. But probably those people never left the game, so why would they? Also I think too much focus on new players. I think there is a lot more potential in ex-players. Yeah probably free trial is incoming , which would explain the NPE, but right after china launch? I wouldn’t call it a wise move.

#MyLastPostForTheDayGn

Scipio.3204:

@Vayne,

Agreed on last sentence. Also I don’t think EotM was for WvWers, it was to play somewhere during long queues, and for that it’s perfect.
And I think we can say there is never a guarantee it will be popular . But I think anet took it too seriously a few times, see SAB world 2 or TA aether. (Also I don’t think the aether unique rewards was that much work)

And yes, obviously it’s easier to cater to people who are easily pleased. But probably those people never left the game, so why would they? Also I think too much focus on new players. I think there is a lot more potential in ex-players. Yeah probably free trial is incoming , which would explain the NPE, but right after china launch? I wouldn’t call it a wise move.

#MyLastPostForTheDayGn

In reality, how much focus is there on new players. In the last patch we had a few things for new players, but 90% of the changes were for everyone. New auction hows, collections, back end changes to group battle graphics, commander tag changes, WvW changes to siege and golems, the tournaments, crafting UI, all these things benefit everyone.

The changes for new players is just a small percentage of the upgrade and most things aren’t done for new players. The living story for example, now is only for level 80s. Dry Top is a new level 80 zone.

Where is all this stuff for new players I keep hearing about?

Vayne.8563:

@Scipio

My point is we know that a dev said only 10% of people playing Lotro ever raided or did PvP. We know that the PvP population of Guild Wars 1 was higher than that, but I do remember a dev talking about DOA and how few people ever completed it. I wish I dev would come here and confirm that, because at this late date I’ll never find the quote.

Over years in this industry, we’ve seen devs make hard content that most players never get through, but you think, for some reason, Guild Wars 1 was different.

The elite zones in later games were nowhere near as hard or as long as the ones in Prophecies. Anet spent less and less time on them as the game advanced.

you dont have to complete content for people to enjoy it. Most underworld runs were not for completion, it was super long, and 1 mistake could end it, thats why having mini objectives were good.
The same with DOA, you could do every path seperate, or only the path you wanted to.

also, how many people did raids in lotro, has little to do with how many people did elite instances in gw2.

there is a substantial difference in accessibility with content that requires 12 people, and content that requires 1 or 2 people.
yes i duo ed domain of anguish with my friend and his heroes,
yes i trio ed underworld without henches with trappers and 55 monks, and a weird necro cannot die build i made
point is, the big obstacle to people attempting raids, isnt the word raids or even the difficulty, its that it requires organizing with some generally large number of people.

now im not saying dungeons is the only form endgame can take, but i dont think that the principle you have, that instanced content serves no purpose is true.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

@Scipio

My point is we know that a dev said only 10% of people playing Lotro ever raided or did PvP. We know that the PvP population of Guild Wars 1 was higher than that, but I do remember a dev talking about DOA and how few people ever completed it. I wish I dev would come here and confirm that, because at this late date I’ll never find the quote.

Over years in this industry, we’ve seen devs make hard content that most players never get through, but you think, for some reason, Guild Wars 1 was different.

The elite zones in later games were nowhere near as hard or as long as the ones in Prophecies. Anet spent less and less time on them as the game advanced.

you dont have to complete content for people to enjoy it. Most underworld runs were not for completion, it was super long, and 1 mistake could end it, thats why having mini objectives were good.
The same with DOA, you could do every path seperate, or only the path you wanted to.

also, how many people did raids in lotro, has little to do with how many people did elite instances in gw2.

there is a substantial difference in accessibility with content that requires 12 people, and content that requires 1 or 2 people.
yes i duo ed domain of anguish with my friend and his heroes,
yes i trio ed underworld without henches with trappers and 55 monks, and a weird necro cannot die build i made
point is, the bikitteniment to people attempting raids, isnt the word raids or even the difficulty, its that it requires organizing with some generally large number of people.

now im not saying dungeons is the only form endgame can take, but i dont think that the principle you have, that instanced content serves no purpose is false.

Let me rephrase then. Most people who tried it and died quickly, had that bad first experience, never went back, because in a nutshell, that’s people. People don’t like to die and fail. The amount of resilient people that keep banging their heads against stuff is always going to be a minority and that’s not only true in games. That’s true throughout life.

That’s human nature. A few self-starters. Leaders. Resilient people. People with vision. And a bunch of people sitting on the couch, eating potato chips, watching American Idol and Big Brother.

On the forums, we are the minority. In the game we’re the minority. This is my opinion, but it’s backed up by a whole lot of stuff I’ve seen and heard, over a whole lot of years. It’s not just my opinion…it’s my experience.

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

@Scipio

My point is we know that a dev said only 10% of people playing Lotro ever raided or did PvP. We know that the PvP population of Guild Wars 1 was higher than that, but I do remember a dev talking about DOA and how few people ever completed it. I wish I dev would come here and confirm that, because at this late date I’ll never find the quote.

Over years in this industry, we’ve seen devs make hard content that most players never get through, but you think, for some reason, Guild Wars 1 was different.

The elite zones in later games were nowhere near as hard or as long as the ones in Prophecies. Anet spent less and less time on them as the game advanced.

you dont have to complete content for people to enjoy it. Most underworld runs were not for completion, it was super long, and 1 mistake could end it, thats why having mini objectives were good.
The same with DOA, you could do every path seperate, or only the path you wanted to.

also, how many people did raids in lotro, has little to do with how many people did elite instances in gw2.

there is a substantial difference in accessibility with content that requires 12 people, and content that requires 1 or 2 people.
yes i duo ed domain of anguish with my friend and his heroes,
yes i trio ed underworld without henches with trappers and 55 monks, and a weird necro cannot die build i made
point is, the bikitteniment to people attempting raids, isnt the word raids or even the difficulty, its that it requires organizing with some generally large number of people.

now im not saying dungeons is the only form endgame can take, but i dont think that the principle you have, that instanced content serves no purpose is false.

Let me rephrase then. Most people who tried it and died quickly, had that bad first experience, never went back, because in a nutshell, that’s people. People don’t like to die and fail. The amount of resilient people that keep banging their heads against stuff is always going to be a minority and that’s not only true in games. That’s true throughout life.

That’s human nature. A few self-starters. Leaders. Resilient people. People with vision. And a bunch of people sitting on the couch, eating potato chips, watching American Idol and Big Brother.

On the forums, we are the minority. In the game we’re the minority. This is my opinion, but it’s backed up by a whole lot of stuff I’ve seen and heard, over a whole lot of years. It’s not just my opinion…it’s my experience.

Please speak for yourself. Every time you start a sentence with the word ‘People,’ stop, think about what you are doing, and delete the post. You’ve complained before about naysayers speaking for the “majority,” but I frequently see you making the same argument in to support your preferences.

DaShi.1368:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

@Scipio

My point is we know that a dev said only 10% of people playing Lotro ever raided or did PvP. We know that the PvP population of Guild Wars 1 was higher than that, but I do remember a dev talking about DOA and how few people ever completed it. I wish I dev would come here and confirm that, because at this late date I’ll never find the quote.

Over years in this industry, we’ve seen devs make hard content that most players never get through, but you think, for some reason, Guild Wars 1 was different.

The elite zones in later games were nowhere near as hard or as long as the ones in Prophecies. Anet spent less and less time on them as the game advanced.

you dont have to complete content for people to enjoy it. Most underworld runs were not for completion, it was super long, and 1 mistake could end it, thats why having mini objectives were good.
The same with DOA, you could do every path seperate, or only the path you wanted to.

also, how many people did raids in lotro, has little to do with how many people did elite instances in gw2.

there is a substantial difference in accessibility with content that requires 12 people, and content that requires 1 or 2 people.
yes i duo ed domain of anguish with my friend and his heroes,
yes i trio ed underworld without henches with trappers and 55 monks, and a weird necro cannot die build i made
point is, the bikitteniment to people attempting raids, isnt the word raids or even the difficulty, its that it requires organizing with some generally large number of people.

now im not saying dungeons is the only form endgame can take, but i dont think that the principle you have, that instanced content serves no purpose is false.

Let me rephrase then. Most people who tried it and died quickly, had that bad first experience, never went back, because in a nutshell, that’s people. People don’t like to die and fail. The amount of resilient people that keep banging their heads against stuff is always going to be a minority and that’s not only true in games. That’s true throughout life.

That’s human nature. A few self-starters. Leaders. Resilient people. People with vision. And a bunch of people sitting on the couch, eating potato chips, watching American Idol and Big Brother.

On the forums, we are the minority. In the game we’re the minority. This is my opinion, but it’s backed up by a whole lot of stuff I’ve seen and heard, over a whole lot of years. It’s not just my opinion…it’s my experience.

Please speak for yourself. Every time you start a sentence with the word ‘People,’ stop, think about what you are doing, and delete the post. You’ve complained before about naysayers speaking for the “majority,” but I frequently see you making the same argument in to support your preferences.

Not my preferences mate. You get me wrong. I’ll play all content, including challenging content. I have no problem doing challenging content.

But from years of being in this industry, I’ve seen devs say time and again that most players are casual. And most casuals don’t love the harder stuff.

Yes, I said most because I have evidence of at least some devs saying that. It’s accumulated over the years. Scott Hartsman, Ghost Crawler, even some of the Guild Wars 1 devs.

So what you call opinion, in this case, I’d call an educated guess. I’ve never once, ever, in the long time I’ve been involved with games, ever hear a dev say most people want challenging content, nor I have ever seen a dev say most people raid. But I have seen devs say otherwise. That means there’s evidence for my “opinion” in this.

Anyone can look at the MMO industry and see that it’s continually being dumbed down. WoW vanilla was more challenging than WoW now. EQ was more challenging than WoW. The level of challenge people are willing to accept is going down, testified to by the number of games that nerf content for the masses.

Do you really think if everyone was doing that content, that content would be nerfed?

Hard core games like Eve are niche MMOs. Hard core games like Wildstar are losing ground before they got off the ground. We’ll see how Archeage does, but I don’t expect it to do much better.

If you really think the target audience is this game is the hard core crowd and Anet is just ignoring them because they don’t like majorities…well you’re entitled to that opinion.

But you know, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. My style of play is NOT the majority. The stuff I like will never BE the majority.

Show me one dev quote anywhere from any game that shows that most people or even a significant number of people like hard raids or the hardest content. I’ll wait here.

So let’s get this straight. Dev quotes over the years don’t mean anything, but your opinion does. Because they don’t have any way of measuring who does want content and you do. So noted.

People can make up their own mind if they believe you or devs. And I still wish an Anet dev would come and settle this once and for all, but I strongly suspect they won’t.

I wish you could communicate with me. Instead you just state what you want me to say and argue against that. You are currently having an argument with yourself, because I’ve made no statements related to your post that quotes me. Frankly, I don’t think you even read my post and just went on another rant.

DaShi.1368:

I wish you could communicate with me. Instead you just state what you want me to say and argue against that. You are currently having an argument with yourself, because I’ve made no statements related to your post that quotes me. Frankly, I don’t think you even read my post and just went on another rant.

It’s certainly clear you’re not reading my posts.

I am. You are making claims about my beliefs and opinions and arguing against those made up claims.

All I ever asked you to do was to not speak for other people. Something you have asked of others. I then pointed out some factual definitions. Everything else is baggage that you carried. I made none of the statements you’ve claimed that I did and that you then ranted about. Perhaps an apology is in order?

DaShi.1368:

I am. You are making claims about my beliefs and opinions and arguing against those made up claims.

All I ever asked you to do was to not speak for other people. Something you have asked of others. I then pointed out some factual definitions. Everything else is baggage that you carried. I made none of the statements you’ve claimed that I did and that you then ranted about. Perhaps an apology is in order?

DaShi: Seriously, you are one of the rudest posters I’ve encountered here.

You’re right. I think an apology is definitely in order. I would definite accept an apology if you made one. The funny bit is you attacking me personally, then trying to make me look bad, asking why I’m hostile. I’m not even being hostile. Bemused is a closer word. I won’t be answering any more of your posts, so do your worst.

I do apologize if you felt I attacked you personally. My only meaning was to ask you to be considerate of others opinions and to play by the same rules you ask others to. However, your response to my post is entirely your own responsibility and I take no credit for your behavior.

One thing I do not understand about some people who demand this game have endgame is exactly what type of endgame do they want to have and why do they want it to begin with? People may go deaf when I say this but I always make my own endgame in practically any game I play. If I don’t like to do dungeons, I go PvP. If not, then WvW, if not, Legendary crafting.

Malkavian.4516:

One thing I do not understand about some people who demand this game have endgame is exactly what type of endgame do they want to have and why do they want it to begin with? People may go deaf when I say this but I always make my own endgame in practically any game I play. If I don’t like to do dungeons, I go PvP. If not, then WvW, if not, Legendary crafting.

endgame is something that requires you to use all of what you have/earned built in order to succeed. It generally seeks to let you push or test your limits.

For example, in basketball, you spend a lot of time learning basics, how to shoot, how to dribble, how to pass. Special combinations of this, increasing your accuracy and your speed, and then endgame is playing people of equal or greater difficulty.

programming, you learn a language, learn the rules, figure how to build something complex from a simple set of instructions, and then endgame is putting it all together, devising and figuring out how to build something greater from a simple instruction to the complex.

Art: you study anatomy, perspective, composition, color. Endgame is putting it all together into a peice of art.

Note, not everyone achieves the same levels, not everyone beats the game, but striving to achieve, putting everything you ve built to use. It enhances the experience, knowing there is something to aim for, some use for the skills you build up, some benefit for doing it smartly, or fast. Seeing it come together for a result. Many hobby rock climbers may never attempt to climb everest, but they are glad it exists.

What in this game even tries to come close to this? You may have played for 80 levels, and mastered 65 traits, and 40 skills, what in this game makes you use that to succeed? Even when you take it out of straight up skill, what part of the story is the sum total of everything you have done? Explorer? what in this game has used your knowledge and understanding of the map, in interesting ways to succeed at anything?

PVE wise, what in this game is made to make good use of your skills/abilities/knowlegde?

a good game scales well with its players throughout they various levels, allowing them to find their on comfortable zone for endgame.

Vayne.8563:

It was good for a percentage of the playerbase. I’m relatively sure most people that played Guild Wars 1 never even attempted the Underworld and that’s the problem.

The people who liked it and swear by it, in my opinion are nowhere close to any kind of majority. Which might be why Anet didn’t make something else like that.

I totally think you’re wrong on this. Mostly because you could compare any of the festivals (winters day, Halloween, etc.) district count. Temple of Ages often had almost as many districts very regularly. Also, ectos were considered currency and that was the only place you could get them (minus tombs which only had a few mobs that dropped them). On top of the fact that they built entrances to UW and FoW into each of the 2 campaigns. If it wasn’t a popular thing, i really don’t think they’d bother giving people access to it in Factions and Nightfall. When tombs opened up it was pretty crazy how many people where running that. Then Sorrows Furnace, which also was a smashingly fun area, was often packed. Everyone i knew and i mean everyone, did those and that was a lot of people. While it may not of been the majority of people that actually played the game to 20, it was definitely a very large minority, especially those people that played very frequently.

Yes, people got bored, for sure… but there was frequent availability for challenging, rewarding content. This game has very little of that and there in lies a pretty big problem.

munkiman.3068:

Vayne.8563:

It was good for a percentage of the playerbase. I’m relatively sure most people that played Guild Wars 1 never even attempted the Underworld and that’s the problem.

The people who liked it and swear by it, in my opinion are nowhere close to any kind of majority. Which might be why Anet didn’t make something else like that.

I totally think you’re wrong on this. Mostly because you could compare any of the festivals (winters day, Halloween, etc.) district count. Temple of Ages often had almost as many districts very regularly. Also, ectos were considered currency and that was the only place you could get them (minus tombs which only had a few mobs that dropped them). On top of the fact that they built entrances to UW and FoW into each of the 2 campaigns. If it wasn’t a popular thing, i really don’t think they’d bother giving people access to it in Factions and Nightfall. When tombs opened up it was pretty crazy how many people where running that. Then Sorrows Furnace, which also was a smashingly fun area, was often packed. Everyone i knew and i mean everyone, did those and that was a lot of people. While it may not of been the majority of people that actually played the game to 20, it was definitely a very large minority, especially those people that played very frequently.

Yes, people got bored, for sure… but there was frequent availability for challenging, rewarding content. This game has very little of that and there in lies a pretty big problem.

Shing Jea Monastery had over a hundred districts when I used to play Guild Wars 1. ToA had about 5 max, and most of the time less.

“I’ve never ever seen ToA hav anywhere near the amount of districts you see in Shing Jea.

Other events were in multiple cities, where as almost no one ever used Zu Kin Corridor or Chantry of Secrets to make parties.

Vayne.8563:

munkiman.3068:

Vayne.8563:

It was good for a percentage of the playerbase. I’m relatively sure most people that played Guild Wars 1 never even attempted the Underworld and that’s the problem.

The people who liked it and swear by it, in my opinion are nowhere close to any kind of majority. Which might be why Anet didn’t make something else like that.

I totally think you’re wrong on this. Mostly because you could compare any of the festivals (winters day, Halloween, etc.) district count. Temple of Ages often had almost as many districts very regularly. Also, ectos were considered currency and that was the only place you could get them (minus tombs which only had a few mobs that dropped them). On top of the fact that they built entrances to UW and FoW into each of the 2 campaigns. If it wasn’t a popular thing, i really don’t think they’d bother giving people access to it in Factions and Nightfall. When tombs opened up it was pretty crazy how many people where running that. Then Sorrows Furnace, which also was a smashingly fun area, was often packed. Everyone i knew and i mean everyone, did those and that was a lot of people. While it may not of been the majority of people that actually played the game to 20, it was definitely a very large minority, especially those people that played very frequently.

Yes, people got bored, for sure… but there was frequent availability for challenging, rewarding content. This game has very little of that and there in lies a pretty big problem.

Shing Jea Monastery had over a hundred districts when I used to play Guild Wars 1. ToA had about 5 max, and most of the time less.

“I’ve never ever seen ToA hav anywhere near the amount of districts you see in Shing Jea.

Other events were in multiple cities, where as almost no one ever used Zu Kin Corridor or Chantry of Secrets to make parties.

I should have specified, within the first 6 months of the game. While more things were added less people frequented ToA. But you also ignored the facts that ecto was commonly used as currency and that they actually built entrances to those in each individual campaign. Why bother giving players that only had Factions access to that dungeon if it wasn’t a popular draw? People kept doing those dungeons, even after all the new stuff got added too. That doesn’t happen very often, players usually abandon that “old” dungeon content for the new stuff. I know i personally did them way more than any dungeon in this game, even within the first 6 months of release of Prophecies.

Vayne.8563:

If they were a clear majority, what’s the reason that Anet hasn’t made that or anything like it?

They did! it’s called Dungeons, Fractals (is it called don’t know never been there, or I might have been but I’d never know, its all one world to me)

As for what 350 works are doing? working I would presume likely on things that take a long time to complete, and when it ready maybe they’ll tell us all. (then they’ll be heroes again)

phys.7689:

Malkavian.4516:

One thing I do not understand about some people who demand this game have endgame is exactly what type of endgame do they want to have and why do they want it to begin with? People may go deaf when I say this but I always make my own endgame in practically any game I play. If I don’t like to do dungeons, I go PvP. If not, then WvW, if not, Legendary crafting.

endgame is something that requires you to use all of what you have/earned built in order to succeed. It generally seeks to let you push or test your limits.

For example, in basketball, you spend a lot of time learning basics, how to shoot, how to dribble, how to pass. Special combinations of this, increasing your accuracy and your speed, and then endgame is playing people of equal or greater difficulty.

programming, you learn a language, learn the rules, figure how to build something complex from a simple set of instructions, and then endgame is putting it all together, devising and figuring out how to build something greater from a simple instruction to the complex.

Art: you study anatomy, perspective, composition, color. Endgame is putting it all together into a peice of art.

Note, not everyone achieves the same levels, not everyone beats the game, but striving to achieve, putting everything you ve built to use. It enhances the experience, knowing there is something to aim for, some use for the skills you build up, some benefit for doing it smartly, or fast. Seeing it come together for a result. Many hobby rock climbers may never attempt to climb everest, but they are glad it exists.

What in this game even tries to come close to this? You may have played for 80 levels, and mastered 65 traits, and 40 skills, what in this game makes you use that to succeed? Even when you take it out of straight up skill, what part of the story is the sum total of everything you have done? Explorer? what in this game has used your knowledge and understanding of the map, in interesting ways to succeed at anything?

PVE wise, what in this game is made to make good use of your skills/abilities/knowlegde?

a good game scales well with its players throughout they various levels, allowing them to find their on comfortable zone for endgame.

Well in my case there is the Fractals and WvW for my endgame really.

@Vayne,

I do see one big flaw in your argument: “Most people are casuals, they don’t even try out hard stuff”. Let me explain through an example: Lets say anet releases the most hardest thing ever, and they look at the numbers how many people tried out 1 month after release. Let’s say about 15% and they even make this number public to demonstrate why they don’t make hard content, but something is missing.

For this information to even worth something we need to know another thing: The percentage of active players during that time. This is an information that’s never going to be available for us to see. But lets say during that month 30% of the playerbase was active. That would mean about 50% of the active playerbase tried it out.
That would mean the casuals who don’t even try out the hard things are in the other 50% together with PvP/WvW exclusive folks, new players & etc. which would mean they are a minority. But we don’t see that.

Also some other informations would also be useful like, how many people completed it , the percentage of active players before the release (if it’s like 25% that would mean the release drawed back 5% of the players) The next month’s data etc.
My point is, you can’t draw a conclusion like that from a tiny bit of information.

It’s Guild Wars.

Are people that seriously kittened enough to complain about lack of “end-game” in this franchise. GW is not an “end-game” MMORPG. There are like a gazzillion other MMORPG’s that do that. Go play one.

This post will probably be lost in this thread but at least I can say I got it out there. The biggest problem with this game is that they made level 80 the top level AT RELEASE. They should have made top level at 60 at release, with dungeons and professions ending in that area to match. They should have made more items “right of passage” and “grind dungeon x number of times” to get this item, etc. instead of “GOT CASH?” gem store everything. Then they could have released more zones, more levels and more professions and dungeons as time went by, thereby stretching things out and keeping players working on things AND STILL PLAYING.

Instead, here we are, still at level 80 over 2 years later. Nothing really “new” added except a small new depressing zone with a lame, distasteful story to match.

Anyone notice how many subscriptions Blizzard has lost since not listening to THEIR PLAYERS? Millions upon millions. ANet is headed down the exact same road.

Gaming companies do what they want > players stop playing > game dies.

GW has always been about reaching max lvl relatively early and never having to worry about it after the fact. I agree with the content issues but if you want staggered leveling theres a few hundred MMO’s that do that already. It’s common knowledge GW is not one of those.

Again I transmute complaint for the fact people are playing the wrong game.