Guild Wars 2

dlonie.6547:

Hi Gaile!

First, thanks for coming back after your initial post in this thread. I think there has been some valuable discussion here and I’m glad it wasn’t missed. Gathering our input on endgame is a great first step. I hope that discussion comes full circle and we’ll get to hear what direction the company feels is right for the future of the game.

The game has major problems when it comes to producing content. After watching nearly all of my friends leave because there’s not enough new challenging content coming out and hearing similar complaints from other forumers, I don’t see how that is debatable. People who want more than casual LS content are leaving, it’s clear as day.

When we try to give constructive feedback, we’ve been ignored or told “Naaaaaaaaah, everything’s fine.” Now ANet seems to be listening, but it’s a one-way street. We’re telling you what we’re looking for, but we aren’t hearing if our interests align with those of the company.

So rather than some specific suggestions of what I’d like to see added to endgame, I’d love to see ArenaNet take a stance and share their vision for the game’s future; nothing too specific, but what forms of content do you have interest in adding? Will there be more multipath dungeon systems added? Will conditions in PvE get fixed to create actual build diversity? etc etc. These are the things people are being vocal about wanting — if you want to stop hearing the same questions over and over, give us some clear answers =P

Right now…all we can do is guess based on what we see, and I haven’t seen anything challenging added to this game in about a year. That, and I’ve seen a video saying that there’s nothing planned in the near future. So, what does “endgame” mean to ArenaNet? I think that’s a valid question.

Spot on friend

I’m not picking on anyone in particular. So don’t bother getting ruffled. There are so many posts, with so many descriptions and explanations about the LS2 npc characters. This is why the LS2 story writing fails. Hard. No one really knows why the characters are doing so many stupid things. Everyone has to try and explain it themselves.

Sorry M&K, are very stupid characters. The only thing they bring to the table is real life politics in an extremely poor manner. I can’t justify it at all. If the world were in danger, no lets think smaller. If the country…nope, smaller still. If my crappy little town were in danger (and I mean a level of danger that it would be impossible for someone not to know about), I think you’d be hard pressed to find many people out in the open discussing their relationship or sexual status (especially silly since both M&K are fully aware that a DRAGON is waking). If you can say, well that’s “real life”…you’d wind up dead fairly quickly in the event of an emergency (possible COD – being stupid).

Now the conversation counter will be “but its a video game (but but but…)”. Ok, its a video game, why throw a possibly charged topic at your player base? Simple answer, someone wasn’t thinking about how to do the story right. It was a quick script, and someone green lit it without looking at it. VOs were pushed asap. Just to get it done. Not to get it done right.

Is there a right way to do a lesbian love story in the middle of a war? Short answer, yes. This actually was the ONLY redeeming quality of this last dog pile of a story. When everyone gathered at tree town, and K whispers to M. Tactful. Tasteful. Subtle. Writing doesn’t always require a baseball bat, like the rest of the crap that was written. The relationship conversation didn’t even require that the player BE there. It was just going to happen, with or without you. Might want to have your writers take a good long hard look at that ONE section of the LS, to try and figure out what they did right.

To all those who have a high opinion of the LS “story”. Stop. Listen to yourself. Why are you excusing the story? Why are you explaining the story? A story needs to be interpreted by whoever is reading it, or a part of it. It doesn’t need all the holes filled in, or excused, or ignored. If the writing is done even half way well, it stands on its own. The LS “story” does not stand on its own. You have to excuse it. You have to explain it. You have to ignore all the random stuff that makes no sense.

Gaile Gray.6029:

I agree with you. Suggestions would be wonderful: Practical, reasonably expressed, and clear. Here’s the challenge, and we’ll see if it’s possible and reasonable: Share your opinion about how to improve the end game in (roughly) 100 words or less…

What about an open world dungeon? I invision an entire zone with broad linier paths that gets harder as you progress. So maybe at the beginning there are three paths to choose from (upper, middle, bottom) and only two are available at a time (for population control purposes) and the further you go in the harder it gets. So you can solo up to a point but eventually you’ll need help to progress. The end bosses would essentially be raid content but gated a little because you need an organized party to get there.

The only mechanic that would need to be built is restrictive way points. Perhaps enemies in the specific paths drop (common) items that you need to use way points on that path so you can’t just port in for bosses if you are on the other side of the world. Event’s, branching paths, and multiple boss pops with timers can be used to break up/ reduce zergs.

Anyway that my idea for end game and I think it fits with the intended spirit for GW2.

Snow White.1842:

Sorry M&K, are very stupid characters. The only thing they bring to the table is real life politics in an extremely poor manner. I can’t justify it at all. If the world were in danger, no lets think smaller. If the country…nope, smaller still. If my crappy little town were in danger (and I mean a level of danger that it would be impossible for someone not to know about), I think you’d be hard pressed to find many people out in the open discussing their relationship or sexual status (especially silly since both M&K are fully aware that a DRAGON is waking). If you can say, well that’s “real life”…you’d wind up dead fairly quickly in the event of an emergency (possible COD – being stupid).

Have you ever played a Bioware game? Most Bioware have good (some even great) storylines and characters, Like Mass Effect or Dragon Age, guess what the main character is doing while the world around them is burning.

This can be applied to many many other RPGs as well, not only a Bioware thing, actually I’m hard pressed to find an RPG (with some kind of story/character development in it) that doesn’t have dialogue involving the player and another character talking about relationships (or in lots of cases actually doing something)

Why is this a problem in GW2 and not in all those games? Unless of course every single RPG out there got it wrong.

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

They should create a big giant red button at the end of an impossible dungeon..

(The account character interacting with it will be automaticly deleted)

ofcourse Anet should keep what happens when you press this button a secret.

There is your endgame.

Knowing ANet lately, the button would do one of three things, delete your character, load you with a pile of junk or open up the gem store :P

nopoet.2960:

Gaile Gray.6029:

I agree with you. Suggestions would be wonderful: Practical, reasonably expressed, and clear. Here’s the challenge, and we’ll see if it’s possible and reasonable: Share your opinion about how to improve the end game in (roughly) 100 words or less…

What about an open world dungeon? I invision an entire zone with broad linier paths that gets harder as you progress. So maybe at the beginning there are three paths to choose from (upper, middle, bottom) and only two are available at a time (for population control purposes) and the further you go in the harder it gets. So you can solo up to a point but eventually you’ll need help to progress. The end bosses would essentially be raid content but gated a little because you need an organized party to get there.

The only mechanic that would need to be built is restrictive way points. Perhaps enemies in the specific paths drop (common) items that you need to use way points on that path so you can’t just port in for bosses if you are on the other side of the world. Event’s, branching paths, and multiple boss pops with timers can be used to break up/ reduce zergs.

Anyway that my idea for end game and I think it fits with the intended spirit for GW2.

You mean you want something like the Tower of Nightmares?

nopoet.2960:

Gaile Gray.6029:

I agree with you. Suggestions would be wonderful: Practical, reasonably expressed, and clear. Here’s the challenge, and we’ll see if it’s possible and reasonable: Share your opinion about how to improve the end game in (roughly) 100 words or less…

What about an open world dungeon? I invision an entire zone with broad linier paths that gets harder as you progress. So maybe at the beginning there are three paths to choose from (upper, middle, bottom) and only two are available at a time (for population control purposes) and the further you go in the harder it gets. So you can solo up to a point but eventually you’ll need help to progress. The end bosses would essentially be raid content but gated a little because you need an organized party to get there.

The only mechanic that would need to be built is restrictive way points. Perhaps enemies in the specific paths drop (common) items that you need to use way points on that path so you can’t just port in for bosses if you are on the other side of the world. Event’s, branching paths, and multiple boss pops with timers can be used to break up/ reduce zergs.

Anyway that my idea for end game and I think it fits with the intended spirit for GW2.

How about no WP’s (except the one at the entrance). Since it’s open world, you could log out anywhere in that zone/dungeon.

Or, since I can already hear people complaining about this – very few waypoints. Like very, very few.

The real GW2 endgame is loading up a looping video of the beta login screen and watching it for hours. Therefore, to improve the endgame, ANet should re-enable the old login screen.

maddoctor.2738:

nopoet.2960:

…Anyway that my idea for end game and I think it fits with the intended spirit for GW2.

You mean you want something like the Tower of Nightmares?

Kind of but the size of a full zone.

ipan.4356:

nopoet.2960:

…Anyway that my idea for end game and I think it fits with the intended spirit for GW2.

How about no WP’s (except the one at the entrance). Since it’s open world, you could log out anywhere in that zone/dungeon.

Or, since I can already hear people complaining about this – very few waypoints. Like very, very few.

What if you die and no one can rez you. You wouldn’t want to have to go all the way to back to the beginning of the zone. They have to be close enough to the fight so you have a chance of diving back in. I was about to write something about keeping waypoints active via events but then I though of Orr…

nopoet.2960:

maddoctor.2738:

nopoet.2960:

…Anyway that my idea for end game and I think it fits with the intended spirit for GW2.

You mean you want something like the Tower of Nightmares?

Kind of but the size of a full zone.

So, cross Tower of Nightmares with the Lion’s Arch invasion?

Palador.2170:

So, cross Tower of Nightmares with the Lion’s Arch invasion?

Yes if the tower has multiple branches with bosses at the end of those branches…and there are three of them.

Vayne.8563:

Frodo wasn’t a hero either. It’s perfectly normal in fantasy for non-heroes to be placed in roles that require heroes. They do one great thing and everything thinks they’re awesome and puts them in dangerous situations. It’s pretty normal for fantasy fiction.

Not everyone is Conan the Barbarian. Some people are Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, or Bilbo Baggins.

You’re talking about books. In books the author tells the story to the reader. The reader is not participating in the story.

In GW2, I’m being asked to be the leader and then I have a group of inexperienced characters forced on me. If I was really the leader, I would go to Vigil, the Order of Whispers, and The Priory and ask for a crack team of their best people.

And by the way, the only reason I buy the hobbits participating in the LotR is because Gandalf supports their going. (Although there were many times during the first reading that I thought it was nuts until I got to the end.) And it turns out he knew something about hobbits that everyone else didn’t (just like in The Hobbit).

Thomas Covenant didn’t have a choice.

ipan.4356:

Exit.5213:

ipan.4356:

Anet – Your Largest Playerbase are Explorers

I disagree. Largest playerbase are grinders and farmers. Whether it’s open world or dungeons – easy and profitable (hencefore enjoyable) places are the ones most crowded.

What this game needs is more open world zones like Cursed Shore. Big events, lots of mobs, lots of zerging, lots of loot!

But you have to ask yourself, why are they farming?

Presumably, to get gold.

And what does gold get you?

Gear. Gear to go and explore more.

You can play sPvP without ever buying any gear. But to do open world content (or dungeons – which I consider a kind of PvE content) you have to have gear.

Sometimes it’s for additional sets of armor. Sometimes it’s for legendary’s. And sometimes it’s just for skins.

Whatever the specific reason, the farmers/grinders are still doing PvE content so that they can continue doing PvE content.

Or, to put it another way – if more zones were opened that offered those same materials or gold rewards, they’d probably go and farm/grind those areas instead (just because they’re a ‘new’ area to farm/grind).

Or, to put it yet another way – if the game gave you those things (rewards) in sufficient quantities while you were doing whatever else it was that you wanted to do (explore) without having to farm/grind (repeat content) then that’s what you’d be doing.

What I’m getting at is this: farmers/grinders ARE PvE explorers – the one’s who’ve already explored everything, and are now accumulating whatever it is they think they need (gold) to get ready for the next regions to open up for exploration.

No one really, truly likes farming/grinding. The fact that people are doing it is indicative of game design.

What if those people got the same rewards by completing that content one time? Farming/grinding occurs because the game wants you to repeat content – because there simply isn’t enough content to keep everyone busy.

SO, there you have it: grinders/farmers are semi-retired PvE explorers, waiting for the next big thing to come out.

Sorry, but these are not “just” skins. Collecting skins is my main source of motivation to play this game at this point. I could hardly care less about gear stats, since I already have full ascended.

Basically what you claim is that Anet should focus even more on creating content you do once, and then are done with it. But that’s not all this game is about, I want SOMETHING to do in between story/explorer content releases. And that “something” that I surprisingly find quite fun is picking whichever activity I feel like doing, and then getting my time’s worth in gold – which can be broadly considered as farming.

EDIT: If I had found farming in this game an unfun chore, I’d quit even if there were carrots dangling at me from every direction, but it’s fortunately not the case. All I’m trying to propose is adding more maps with farming activites to add some variety to day to day life in Tyria.

EDIT2: Besides, do we even play the same game? There’s no need to “prepare” for new content. We’re all ready gear and stat-wise if we have exotic gear (which is not a problem to obtain). Farming/grinding is not forced, not mandatory. All those people are farming to buy their desired fluff items, namely skins or minis or whatever.

@Exit

You’re kind of missing my point.

I think, in most ways, we agree.

I’m just trying to point out that farming/grinding is PvE content – it’s just doing it in one place, doing the same thing over and over.

What if you could get exactly the same rewards by doing new content only (let’s say whatever it is you are farming for – be it gold or skins – you could acquire in the same amount of time, but you did it over a much larger area, effectively never repeating the same content twice?)

Now, that’t the OPPOSITE end of the extreme. Completing content only one time, and getting the same rewards that people who do it a thousands times get.

The game itself lies somewhere between that – but I don’t like the balance right now towards having to do the same content over and over.

I’d rather spend my time pushing the boundaries of the map and exploring new areas. That’s what I do – I’m an explorer.

I believe that people only “farm” content for rewards because this is the only way the game gives you to get those rewards.

Another way of putting this, I guess, is imagine if every time you ran a Dungeon Path, you got a guaranteed drop of one skin (and it was guaranteed to be a skin you didn’t have yet) from that boss (instead of a handful of tokens)?

What if every time you defeated Teq he dropped one of the unique Teq skins or items that only comes from him?

And, what if Anet actually devoted serious time and energy to constantly expanding the size of the world, both Open World and Dungeons, ensuring that there was a constantly new influx of content to farm?

One can dream.

One can also move on to another game, with fresh content.

Reliable way to get a precursor without going to the pay to win gemstore or grinding boring reward nurfed content for years to save up. RL time and time in other games is worth more then that.

ipan.4356:

@Exit

You’re kind of missing my point.

I think, in most ways, we agree.

I’m just trying to point out that farming/grinding is PvE content – it’s just doing it in one place, doing the same thing over and over.

What if you could get exactly the same rewards by doing new content only (let’s say whatever it is you are farming for – be it gold or skins – you could acquire in the same amount of time, but you did it over a much larger area, effectively never repeating the same content twice?)

Now, that’t the OPPOSITE end of the extreme. Completing content only one time, and getting the same rewards that people who do it a thousands times get.

The game itself lies somewhere between that – but I don’t like the balance right now towards having to do the same content over and over.

I’d rather spend my time pushing the boundaries of the map and exploring new areas. That’s what I do – I’m an explorer.

I believe that people only “farm” content for rewards because this is the only way the game gives you to get those rewards.

Another way of putting this, I guess, is imagine if every time you ran a Dungeon Path, you got a guaranteed drop of one skin (and it was guaranteed to be a skin you didn’t have yet) from that boss (instead of a handful of tokens)?

What if every time you defeated Teq he dropped one of the unique Teq skins or items that only comes from him?

And, what if Anet actually devoted serious time and energy to constantly expanding the size of the world, both Open World and Dungeons, ensuring that there was a constantly new influx of content to farm?

One can dream.

One can also move on to another game, with fresh content.

Oh of course it would be awesome if we got more content, well… it’s been 2 years. I agree with you there. But I think it’s not necessary to up the drop chance so drastically. After all this is farming fluff, if we get all of the available fluff from let’s say Tequatl or fractals in a matter of week then there wouldn’t be much of a point to return to them. Less people would do those things over time which is not healthy in horizontal progression game.

Exit.5213:

ipan.4356:

@Exit

You’re kind of missing my point.

I think, in most ways, we agree.

I’m just trying to point out that farming/grinding is PvE content – it’s just doing it in one place, doing the same thing over and over.

What if you could get exactly the same rewards by doing new content only (let’s say whatever it is you are farming for – be it gold or skins – you could acquire in the same amount of time, but you did it over a much larger area, effectively never repeating the same content twice?)

Now, that’t the OPPOSITE end of the extreme. Completing content only one time, and getting the same rewards that people who do it a thousands times get.

The game itself lies somewhere between that – but I don’t like the balance right now towards having to do the same content over and over.

I’d rather spend my time pushing the boundaries of the map and exploring new areas. That’s what I do – I’m an explorer.

I believe that people only “farm” content for rewards because this is the only way the game gives you to get those rewards.

Another way of putting this, I guess, is imagine if every time you ran a Dungeon Path, you got a guaranteed drop of one skin (and it was guaranteed to be a skin you didn’t have yet) from that boss (instead of a handful of tokens)?

What if every time you defeated Teq he dropped one of the unique Teq skins or items that only comes from him?

And, what if Anet actually devoted serious time and energy to constantly expanding the size of the world, both Open World and Dungeons, ensuring that there was a constantly new influx of content to farm?

One can dream.

One can also move on to another game, with fresh content.

Oh of course it would be awesome if we got more content, well… it’s been 2 years. I agree with you there. But I think it’s not necessary to up the drop chance so drastically. After all this is farming fluff, if we get all of the available fluff from let’s say Tequatl or fractals in a matter of week then there wouldn’t be much of a point to return to them. Less people would do those things over time which is not healthy in horizontal progression game.

Do you enjoy doing the content the second time? How about the third time? Fourth time? Fifth time?

How many repetitions does it take before your level of enjoyment drops? Before it drops to a point the rewards aren’t worth the repetition?

For me, it’s about 3 times. With some content, more than that, but this is usually just the really awesome stuff.

Unfortunately, most of GW2 is in fact ‘preparing to have fun’.

ipan.4356:

Do you enjoy doing the content the second time? How about the third time? Fourth time? Fifth time?

How many repetitions does it take before your level of enjoyment drops? Before it drops to a point the rewards aren’t worth the repetition?

For me, it’s about 3 times. With some content, more than that, but this is usually just the really awesome stuff.

Three times is laughably small for an MMO. Since the refinement of WoW, the entire genre is based around getting players to repeat content on an ongoing basis by waving carrots in their faces. Even the most lucrative MMO ever relies on these methods. Expecting an MMO that is not the most lucrative to provide content to the extent that players can do said content three times and then be able to move to something new is not realistic. Heck, it’s just not going to happen.

IndigoSundown.5419:

ipan.4356:

Do you enjoy doing the content the second time? How about the third time? Fourth time? Fifth time?

How many repetitions does it take before your level of enjoyment drops? Before it drops to a point the rewards aren’t worth the repetition?

For me, it’s about 3 times. With some content, more than that, but this is usually just the really awesome stuff.

Three times is laughably small for an MMO. Since the refinement of WoW, the entire genre is based around getting players to repeat content on an ongoing basis by waving carrots in their faces. Even the most lucrative MMO ever relies on these methods. Expecting an MMO that is not the most lucrative to provide content to the extent that players can do said content three times and then be able to move to something new is not realistic. Heck, it’s just not going to happen.

There is a big difference between repeating content for your guildmates or yourself to get loot. At least in the case of WoW and many other games there is a likely carrot at the end of the stick. As most have seen in this game there tends to be just more of the stick.

IndigoSundown.5419:

ipan.4356:

Do you enjoy doing the content the second time? How about the third time? Fourth time? Fifth time?

How many repetitions does it take before your level of enjoyment drops? Before it drops to a point the rewards aren’t worth the repetition?

For me, it’s about 3 times. With some content, more than that, but this is usually just the really awesome stuff.

Three times is laughably small for an MMO. Since the refinement of WoW, the entire genre is based around getting players to repeat content on an ongoing basis by waving carrots in their faces. Even the most lucrative MMO ever relies on these methods. Expecting an MMO that is not the most lucrative to provide content to the extent that players can do said content three times and then be able to move to something new is not realistic. Heck, it’s just not going to happen.

I didn’t say I expected to repeat content three times or less.

I said that after about three times, is when my enjoyment begins to decrease (sometimes a few more times if it’s really great content).

I’ve leveled 7 characters to 80 (never using crafting), an 8th to 35 before deleting him and a few others, and starting over with 4 fresh characters (the highest of which just hit 35, the others are about 21 now).

And that’s not counting the three characters I made on another server, before a friend of mine convinced me to move to Tarnished Coast – so I deleted those characters (they weren’t very high though, this was when I first started).

I’ve seen every map in this game more than a dozen times (and by “seen” I mean completed almost everything on that map – though I have a tendency to avoid hearts when I can).

I think this game has about 1 years worth of content and then it gets really stale.

If you’re a very hard core completionist, maybe 2 years worth (although you’re not really seeing any new content – you’re just farming for your completion).

After that there’s not really much left to do.

Torsailr.8456:

I would like to have our actions actually be reflected in the world over time.

IE. Zhaitan is dead, over time (2-3 years) we should see fewer risen in the game.
If certain events aren’t done then we get a spontaneous raid event related to it such as if we don’t do the centaur events in Kessex then a large group raids Queensdale. Or vice versa if over farmed.

Maybe tie this into a meta map system similar to what Dry top has so people realize it’s going on?

I agree with this. My question then is, shouldn’t the personal story be abandoned at some point? Why would anyone need to run the personal story IF the quest line is in the past, the area has been renovated into ‘not Zhaitan’? My point is, everyone wants repeatable content in a ‘living world’. Sorry, but you shouldn’t be able to. If the world changes, stories change and become unavailable. You can say something different, but in a world that moves on, you cannot do that. You can’t fight the wars of your grandfathers, so why, in a game that was advertised as such, should a new character?

Sariel V.7024:

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Certainly there’s little to complain about about their relationship being more important than Tyria.

Sure, there is. They can talk about their feelings for each other all they want, whenever they want – except for when we’re in the middle of a mission. Hoo boy, if my mesmer had really been the ‘boss’ in that situation, those two would still be waiting for their ears to stop burning. She’d have made Gunnery Sergeant Hartman blush.

You mean people in the middle of missions in real life never talk about anything personal? Hell you’ve never watched a war movie where the guys are in a trench talking about home and their loved ones?

Give me a break.

No, sir. No break. They weren’t in a trench. They were smack dab in the middle of unfamiliar territory facing threats known and unknown. Not the appropriate time for relationship chatter.

Go watch Aliens with your favorite adult beverage. Take a drink for every time Hudson says something that should earn him a reprimand. Have another for every time he gets one. You should be blackout drunk by about 100 minutes in.

The point isn’t whether chatter is appropriate. The point is it happens. And btw, you’re in an adventuring company, not a rigorously trained military squadron.

1) main problem is you cannot escape them yapping, IRL, you can ignore such conversations or start talking to your other friend. In gw2, you must stand around while the convo is happening. 9/10 times.
2)Irl, you can tell them to kitten, get a room, save it for the bedroom, or otherwise mock and ridicule their overly coupltastic behavior, or just stop hanging out with them. Perhaps they should let you pick 3 npcs to come with you, and you can leave the rest of the guys at home.
3)These type of convos do happen, but usually at appropriate times, and with appropriate lengths. While you are actively in a danger situation, responses are shorter, more to the point, more context driven. In general though they will happen when its a direct lull, when people camp for the night or in a moment of liesure.

Bottom line is it generally feels really unnatural, and for many people those charachters are annoying.

I would love a, hey “insert npc name” shut up. When whatever personal unrelated dialogs are happening

Roybe.5896:

Torsailr.8456:

I would like to have our actions actually be reflected in the world over time.

IE. Zhaitan is dead, over time (2-3 years) we should see fewer risen in the game.
If certain events aren’t done then we get a spontaneous raid event related to it such as if we don’t do the centaur events in Kessex then a large group raids Queensdale. Or vice versa if over farmed.

Maybe tie this into a meta map system similar to what Dry top has so people realize it’s going on?

I agree with this. My question then is, shouldn’t the personal story be abandoned at some point? Why would anyone need to run the personal story IF the quest line is in the past, the area has been renovated into ‘not Zhaitan’? My point is, everyone wants repeatable content in a ‘living world’. Sorry, but you shouldn’t be able to. If the world changes, stories change and become unavailable. You can say something different, but in a world that moves on, you cannot do that. You can’t fight the wars of your grandfathers, so why, in a game that was advertised as such, should a new character?

Are you really suggesting at this point that Anet remove content from the game?

Roybe.5896:

Torsailr.8456:

I would like to have our actions actually be reflected in the world over time.

IE. Zhaitan is dead, over time (2-3 years) we should see fewer risen in the game.
If certain events aren’t done then we get a spontaneous raid event related to it such as if we don’t do the centaur events in Kessex then a large group raids Queensdale. Or vice versa if over farmed.

Maybe tie this into a meta map system similar to what Dry top has so people realize it’s going on?

I agree with this. My question then is, shouldn’t the personal story be abandoned at some point? Why would anyone need to run the personal story IF the quest line is in the past, the area has been renovated into ‘not Zhaitan’? My point is, everyone wants repeatable content in a ‘living world’. Sorry, but you shouldn’t be able to. If the world changes, stories change and become unavailable. You can say something different, but in a world that moves on, you cannot do that. You can’t fight the wars of your grandfathers, so why, in a game that was advertised as such, should a new character?

pretty common to be able to do exactly that in fiction. There is no timeline on new charachters, whenever a story happened is when that story happened.

Let say i make a charachter named Jim. unless Jims charachter describes him as born on X date, there is no logical reason he could not have been involved in something else before that moment.

phys.7689:

Roybe.5896:

Torsailr.8456:

I would like to have our actions actually be reflected in the world over time.

IE. Zhaitan is dead, over time (2-3 years) we should see fewer risen in the game.
If certain events aren’t done then we get a spontaneous raid event related to it such as if we don’t do the centaur events in Kessex then a large group raids Queensdale. Or vice versa if over farmed.

Maybe tie this into a meta map system similar to what Dry top has so people realize it’s going on?

I agree with this. My question then is, shouldn’t the personal story be abandoned at some point? Why would anyone need to run the personal story IF the quest line is in the past, the area has been renovated into ‘not Zhaitan’? My point is, everyone wants repeatable content in a ‘living world’. Sorry, but you shouldn’t be able to. If the world changes, stories change and become unavailable. You can say something different, but in a world that moves on, you cannot do that. You can’t fight the wars of your grandfathers, so why, in a game that was advertised as such, should a new character?

pretty common to be able to do exactly that in fiction. There is no timeline on new charachters, whenever a story happened is when that story happened.

Let say i make a charachter named Jim. unless Jims charachter describes him as born on X date, there is no logical reason he could not have been involved in something else before that moment.

It would be nice (although maybe technically difficult) to make it more apparent you’re going back in time, to experience things again. I think i’ve seen them comment on it before and it would probably be a boatload of work, but it would be very cool. Like when you do the personal story, you go into LA before it was all messed up, type of thing.

munkiman.3068:

phys.7689:

Roybe.5896:

Torsailr.8456:

I would like to have our actions actually be reflected in the world over time.

IE. Zhaitan is dead, over time (2-3 years) we should see fewer risen in the game.
If certain events aren’t done then we get a spontaneous raid event related to it such as if we don’t do the centaur events in Kessex then a large group raids Queensdale. Or vice versa if over farmed.

Maybe tie this into a meta map system similar to what Dry top has so people realize it’s going on?

I agree with this. My question then is, shouldn’t the personal story be abandoned at some point? Why would anyone need to run the personal story IF the quest line is in the past, the area has been renovated into ‘not Zhaitan’? My point is, everyone wants repeatable content in a ‘living world’. Sorry, but you shouldn’t be able to. If the world changes, stories change and become unavailable. You can say something different, but in a world that moves on, you cannot do that. You can’t fight the wars of your grandfathers, so why, in a game that was advertised as such, should a new character?

pretty common to be able to do exactly that in fiction. There is no timeline on new charachters, whenever a story happened is when that story happened.

Let say i make a charachter named Jim. unless Jims charachter describes him as born on X date, there is no logical reason he could not have been involved in something else before that moment.

It would be nice (although maybe technically difficult) to make it more apparent you’re going back in time, to experience things again. I think i’ve seen them comment on it before and it would probably be a boatload of work, but it would be very cool. Like when you do the personal story, you go into LA before it was all messed up, type of thing.

it really isnt that hard.
give each story a year/date.
if the date is in the past start it off with a screen with intro text.
“320CE..
I remember in summer right after scarlet laid waste to the pulse of krya, Lions arch.”
with an illustration/graphic that sets whatever scene.

it really isnt that hard, to make it clear you are in a different time.

its basically as simple as having a loading screen. IF they want to get more complex, they could add post scripted narration to old content, fleshing it out, and giving context.

been playing bastion for the first time recently, and they are able to tell loads of story/flavor with a simple narrator, and triggers based on what you are doing/where you are going. Its not really that complex.

As far as the having multiple instances(like old and new LA), i dont think its really that hard, its more a matter of if they feel like putting aside any resources towards these ends, when they have other things to do. Also they would probably want to figure out whether they should do a simple solution, or a complex solution that is in the long run more effecient.
(copy the old map to a different map file) vs (create a system where you can alter one map, and use most of the same assents)

The premise is wrong. Guild Wars 2 needs no “end-game”, because Guild Wars 2 simply has “game”. Other MMOs have numerous maps and activities that become obsolete once you outlevel them. Content is called “end-game” if it is still relevant at max level.

In Guild Wars 2, all content is still relevant at all times. There could not possibly be more end-game content than this.

Try wvw with a real good guild. Beat sfr zerg with 23 people and you are on the same level as us. After that beat us

flyingcats.6194:

The premise is wrong. Guild Wars 2 needs no “end-game”, because Guild Wars 2 simply has “game”. Other MMOs have numerous maps and activities that become obsolete once you outlevel them. Content is called “end-game” if it is still relevant at max level.

In Guild Wars 2, all content is still relevant at all times. There could not possibly be more end-game content than this.

Now this I’m with you on. This quest for mythical end game, created by other games to convince people they’re actually progressing has never ceased to amaze me.

Vayne.8563:

flyingcats.6194:

The premise is wrong. Guild Wars 2 needs no “end-game”, because Guild Wars 2 simply has “game”. Other MMOs have numerous maps and activities that become obsolete once you outlevel them. Content is called “end-game” if it is still relevant at max level.

In Guild Wars 2, all content is still relevant at all times. There could not possibly be more end-game content than this.

Now this I’m with you on. This quest for mythical end game, created by other games to convince people they’re actually progressing has never ceased to amaze me.

So once you hit level 80 and are fully outfitted in exotics, go back to Queensdale and kill bandits in the bandithaunt caverns.

Tell me how challenging it is.

Once you get 80 the Deadmines open up in Queensdale.

ipan.4356:

…

So once you hit level 80 and are fully outfitted in exotics, go back to Queensdale and kill bandits in the bandithaunt caverns.

Tell me how challenging it is.

A lot less now that they have nerfed all mobs in starter areas. I have been going back and completing all starter areas on my characters (all 80s) and it is not as much fun as it used to be.

With this new leveling process if you ever expect to get 100% map completion, do all starter areas as soon as possible else it will be boring. It used to be you could go back and fill in starter areas later or play in starter areas with low level friends but I wouldn’t recommend it now.

ipan.4356:

Vayne.8563:

flyingcats.6194:

The premise is wrong. Guild Wars 2 needs no “end-game”, because Guild Wars 2 simply has “game”. Other MMOs have numerous maps and activities that become obsolete once you outlevel them. Content is called “end-game” if it is still relevant at max level.

In Guild Wars 2, all content is still relevant at all times. There could not possibly be more end-game content than this.

Now this I’m with you on. This quest for mythical end game, created by other games to convince people they’re actually progressing has never ceased to amaze me.

So once you hit level 80 and are fully outfitted in exotics, go back to Queensdale and kill bandits in the bandithaunt caverns.

Tell me how challenging it is.

I don’t find Orr that challenging either. I didn’t find most dungeons in Guild Wars 1 that challenging once I built up and runed my heroes. Hard mode was pretty much a walk in the park.

The open world in most games is just that…a walk in the park. There are very few exceptions to this.

But in most other games, you don’t get XP or drops at level in older zones. There’s no rewarded events like the Maw, or the Wurm or the Fire ele.

There are reasons to go back to early zones in Guild Wars 2 that don’t exist in other games.

I think GW2 is always going to be the the little game that almost was. It was almost THAT game.

ipan.4356:

I think GW2 is always going to be the the little game that almost was. It was almost THAT game.

Certainly be interesting to see what happens if a better MMO actually comes out. It’s obviously easier to say an MMO is going to be great than to make a great MMO.

Vayne.8563:

flyingcats.6194:

The premise is wrong. Guild Wars 2 needs no “end-game”, because Guild Wars 2 simply has “game”. Other MMOs have numerous maps and activities that become obsolete once you outlevel them. Content is called “end-game” if it is still relevant at max level.

In Guild Wars 2, all content is still relevant at all times. There could not possibly be more end-game content than this.

Now this I’m with you on. This quest for mythical end game, created by other games to convince people they’re actually progressing has never ceased to amaze me.

“New game+” is my favorite form of ‘endgame’, and is a step and a hop away from replaying a game on an increased difficulty. Hard mode in GW1 was fairly basic and artificial, but it still did a pretty good job. I’d be intensely intrigued for them to see something similar applied to the open world, some sort of setting where you take more damage but receive increased rewards is a simple basis for this idea.

McSlappy.1372:

There is a big difference between repeating content for your guildmates or yourself to get loot. At least in the case of WoW and many other games there is a likely carrot at the end of the stick. As most have seen in this game there tends to be just more of the stick.

There are carrots in GW2 as well. Ultimately, all of the rewards in all MMO’s are pretty empty, pretty inconsequential. It’s what the player’s mind does with them that makes them worth pursuing, or not. Just as some players prefer GW2 content to WoW, some prefer GW2 rewards to WoW. Obviously, other players prefer the vice versa.

ipan.4356:

I didn’t say I expected to repeat content three times or less.

---

I think this game has about 1 years worth of content and then it gets really stale.

If you’re a very hard core completionist, maybe 2 years worth (although you’re not really seeing any new content – you’re just farming for your completion).

After that there’s not really much left to do.

OK, I stand corrected. I’ve been in your position, except I’ve leveled 8 to 80 and deleted two mid-high level characters (51 and 73) as well as deleted two at 30 after completing the Charr & Asura stories.

What I find is that playing GW2 content works for me as long as I don’t overdo it. If I play less than an hour I’m OK, no matter how often I’ve done the content. Anything more than that and I’m ready to do something else. Oddly, this also applies to content I have not seen before as well as content I’ve done before. As long as I treat GW2 as a “beer and peanuts” game, it’s OK. Most MMO’s, I get to a certain point and I just stop playing at all.

There are times I wonder if MMO’s are slowly phasing out. Facebook/mobile games have demonstrated that a game produced at miniscule cost can generate as much or more revenue as an MMO that takes 5 years and who knows how much to make. I wonder if the MMO consumer base is getting older and not adding new players at the same rate as it’s bleeding older players.

IndigoSundown.5419:

There are times I wonder if MMO’s are slowly phasing out. Facebook/mobile games have demonstrated that a game produced at miniscule cost can generate as much or more revenue as an MMO that takes 5 years and who knows how much to make. I wonder if the MMO consumer base is getting older and not adding new players at the same rate as it’s bleeding older players.

Yes. Over all the market is shrinking. The Market share is a lot smaller. LoL blew up that entire class of games. It created its market share. People play games just to play that. WoW did the same thing. While EQ and a few others started it out it didn’t become huge till WoW. Even WoW is in decline from it’s peak of nearly 13 mil active subs down to I think just over 6 mil now. If you stand a chance of being in this market you have to take money away from that game. If you don’t you may be somewhat profitable but probably not worth the investment risk. The market is getting smaller and they still are the chunk of it.

The reason why WoW wins because they do what players over all like and enjoy. There’s something for everyone. If something in another game becomes popular it finds its way in to WoW in some form normally refined. If you want the latest and most researched fun things to do in a game play WoW because they’ll adapt to it. GW2 started out with promoting things that were revolutionary in the industry. But as time went on they changed the game to have none of the good and plenty of the bad.

Like myself getting older and less time for gaming. When I do sit down to play a game I look at it as okay I have a bit of time to burn what shall I do. If I play GW2 I can sit down and do some stuff. Maybe work towards making a few more goal to the thousands needed for the precursor. Just to have to do more later and may get it done a year from now. So I can spend time and get nothing for it. Or I can log in to WoW for the same amount of time to do some PvP and get maybe a piece or two for my set right now. Which am I going to do? 99.9% of the time it’s lets go accomplish something in WoW. Even if there’s no gear involved raising or lowering my PvP rating. It’s something. With GW2 the same amount of time really results in not a whole lot of anything different. It truly is better to do something else then play the game.

Don’t know if they’ll fix it and make it fun or not. If they do cool maybe people will look at it and give it another chance. Or they may look at it and go it’s a 2-3 year old game that sucks why do that again. I don’t know what would happen. Either way for me my money will be spent where the company listens to the playerbase and works to make the game better. Even if it doesn’t always work out and mistake are made, there’s a lot more effort displayed there.

Anyways just bought 5 more months of WoW time so it was a fun two days on the forums and game. See you maybe in another 6-12 months see if anything improved.

phys.7689:

I agree with this. My question then is, shouldn’t the personal story be abandoned at some point? Why would anyone need to run the personal story IF the quest line is in the past, the area has been renovated into ‘not Zhaitan’? My point is, everyone wants repeatable content in a ‘living world’. Sorry, but you shouldn’t be able to. If the world changes, stories change and become unavailable. You can say something different, but in a world that moves on, you cannot do that. You can’t fight the wars of your grandfathers, so why, in a game that was advertised as such, should a new character?

Personally I’d love it if they updated the personal story. Make it so the new characters are being “born” into the world in the present instead of 2 years ago. Let their story revolve around defeating the next dragon instead of Zhaitan. It solves much of the issue, but I’m sure the cost would be prohibitively high.

The other issue with it is how instances are handled. Instances are just walled off areas of the main map that others can’t access. Which means you’ll always have some overlap between what is current and what is previous PS/LS. Unless they make PS instances their own maps this issue will remain. Devs have posted on that before and it was deemed unfeasible; the multitude of new maps would cause severe bloat in the game size, not to mention the cost of build it and remaking parts of the game engine.

All that said, while it is immersion breaking to go from current world to previous PS instance, I don’t think it’s a huge problem for players. Unless you go out of your way to ignore the world I’m sure you’ll figure out quickly that your PS is happening in a different time than current events. And that’s going to make for some jumpy storytelling. I think most players are fairly forgiving of that.

IndigoSundown.5419:

There are times I wonder if MMO’s are slowly phasing out. Facebook/mobile games have demonstrated that a game produced at miniscule cost can generate as much or more revenue as an MMO that takes 5 years and who knows how much to make. I wonder if the MMO consumer base is getting older and not adding new players at the same rate as it’s bleeding older players.

McSlappy.1372:

Yes. Over all the market is shrinking. The Market share is a lot smaller.

From what I’ve observed and studied about the market you’re close. The overall market for games and online games is still growing and growing fast. However the number of games competing for online players is also growing making the share of each game smaller. When WoW started it didn’t have many competitors and those competitors were just MMOs like it was. Now all MMOs have to compete against other MMOs, casual games, mobile games, and games that didn’t have a huge online presence like Call of Duty.

It’s almost a golden age of opportunity for gamers to pick what they want to play and how they want to play it. It’s almost a nightmare for developers to try and attract/retain said players for the same reasons. I don’t envy the developers of any game but I think Anet has the right idea. They’re trying to do something different with GW2 which is a good thing, but their execution of some of their concepts has been problematic. I think GW2 has a lot to offer and a lot of potential to stick around, whether or not it will though….Magic 8 Ball says “Reply Hazy, Try Again”.

I guess Gaile has made this like a second CDI thread about end-game and we can expect dev’s to be paying attention. So here is what I would like to see change / added for better ‘end-game’.

Put a lot of fun things… think skins, mini’s, dyes (the colors), special ranger pets, fun items and so on all over the game.

So pretty much all the stuff that you can now find in the gem-store.

Reward a mini’s from a dungeon, or a boss, or maybe even an RNG drop from some mob you can farm or as reward for an event or a ‘quest’ (of we would get anything like that) but also put it in crafts. Not just at lvl 400 or 500 but at level 5, 10, 15 and so on. Put then recipe’s for those things also in the world and maybe a special item you need to make them.

And when I say put them in the world I mean in a way you can directly work towards them. Not like a extremely rare drop from a huge group of ‘things’ like we now have with champion bags and so on. That does not let you work directly for it.

With those items you could even create a new craft. Musician for example.

That would give you a lot of things to do… meaning it would be end-game. In fact it’s the type of end-game I usually do in other MMO’s but that is not available here.

For example, recently I was searching for a few items (skins, and a mini) for a character. Using the wardrobe I was checking them all. And then when I did see a nice one I checked how to get it. Well the 2 mini’s where simply not available anymore because it was some temporary cash-shop thing. (and even it it was, it would have been just a boring gold grind or buying it.. No real fun end-game sending you into the world).

Another mini was also not available in the game anymore but you could still buy it for a lot of gold do again.. grinding gold or buying gold with real cash.. never-mind then. I play a game to have fun.

A few of the skins has similar things. 5 black lion tickets or stuff you buy for a lot of money. Not something you could go into the world for.. you know playing the game to earn directly.. No just boring grind for gold.

So when I settled on some other skins and another mini I did see a nice backpack and a nice finisher but of course again also that is gems so grind gold or buy it. No going into the world doing a dungeon or killing a boss or completing a jumping-puzzle or whatever to unlock it.

My suggestion. Put all that stuff in the game so we can unlock / earn it directly in fun ways buy going all over the world. You already know the lack of this is a problem as you have been trying to somewhat improve this with the feature packs but thats has not come close to being enough. To make it worse, you did use things for it that where available for everybody before that.

I do see the problem. You are monetizing exactly this element of the game so thats why it’s not easy to change it. But maybe there is a solution for that as well. Monetize the game.. Sell expansion.

Then all these things can go in the game where they belong and it would ad a lot of end-game that could easily keep you going until the next expansion that is never more then a year away.