Guild Wars 2

I was looking at math on stats for power builds to optimize one of my builds. I hadn’t been aware of just how bad it can get when you try to mix in defensive stats.

What I found is that for power damage, berserker’s > knight’s > soldier’s > celestial. Furthermore, that applies to mixing in all cases. Examples to illustrate this point:
- Mixing in soldier’s is always less damage than mixing in knight’s.
- Full knight’s > any mix of knight’s/soldier’s/celestial.
- Full soldier’s > any mix of soldier’s/celestial.

Celestial looks like a way to round out a power build, but it’s a trap. It’s only good if you’re using the condi damage and healing power too.

As for valkyrie’s and cavalier’s, they result in a damage loss compared to captain’s/knight’s unless you add in external crit chance sources like fury and traits.

The big takeaway is that health has a huge opportunity cost. You have to give up a lot of damage to get health. This is because there’s no P/p/v gear.

Khristophoros.7194:

I was looking at math on stats for power builds to optimize one of my builds. I hadn’t been aware of just how bad it can get when you try to mix in defensive stats.

What I found is that for power damage, berserker’s > knight’s > soldier’s > celestial. Furthermore, that applies to mixing in all cases. Examples to illustrate this point:
- Mixing in soldier’s is always less damage than mixing in knight’s.
- Full knight’s > any mix of knight’s/soldier’s/celestial.
- Full soldier’s > any mix of soldier’s/celestial.

Celestial looks like a way to round out a power build, but it’s a trap. It’s only good if you’re using the condi damage and healing power too.

As for valkyrie’s and cavalier’s, they result in a damage loss compared to captain’s/knight’s unless you add in external crit chance sources like fury and traits.

The big takeaway is that health has a huge opportunity cost. You have to give up a lot of damage to get health. This is because there’s no P/p/v gear.

There is power/vitality/condi though. My burn Guardian can reach 2200 condi damage and have 24K hp in WvW… and 1500 toughness on top since trinkets are dire+rabid.

The big takeaway I get from this thread is that I have no idea what the point is. There are hybrids and there are zerkers, yes.

Dawdler.8521:

Khristophoros.7194:

I was looking at math on stats for power builds to optimize one of my builds. I hadn’t been aware of just how bad it can get when you try to mix in defensive stats.

What I found is that for power damage, berserker’s > knight’s > soldier’s > celestial. Furthermore, that applies to mixing in all cases. Examples to illustrate this point:
- Mixing in soldier’s is always less damage than mixing in knight’s.
- Full knight’s > any mix of knight’s/soldier’s/celestial.
- Full soldier’s > any mix of soldier’s/celestial.

Celestial looks like a way to round out a power build, but it’s a trap. It’s only good if you’re using the condi damage and healing power too.

As for valkyrie’s and cavalier’s, they result in a damage loss compared to captain’s/knight’s unless you add in external crit chance sources like fury and traits.

The big takeaway is that health has a huge opportunity cost. You have to give up a lot of damage to get health. This is because there’s no P/p/v gear.

There is power/vitality/condi though. My burn Guardian can reach 2200 condi damage and have 24K hp in WvW… and 1500 toughness on top since trinkets are dire+rabid.

The big takeaway I get from this thread is that I have no idea what the point is. There are hybrids and there are zerkers, yes.

I didn’t look at condi damage stats.

The point of this thread was to talk about how you can ruin your DPS easily by mixing sets in power builds. A lot of people do that and that’s why a lot of PUGs in PvE have low DPS.

I think the message that most players should be taking from this thread is that simply because celestial makes all of your stats “okay” does not mean any of them are good or even great…. and the only time you will really truly reap the benefits of celestial gear is in a scenario other than general pve.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

I think the message that most players should be taking from this thread is that simply because celestial makes all of your stats “okay” does not mean any of them are good or even great…. and the only time you will really truly reap the benefits of celestial gear is in a scenario other than general pve.

Or you have a class that can utilize all of the cele stats and already have a group with sufficient stats as to not warrant going any other stat combination.

The problem is that the ratio of stats on your character does not determine the ratio of their effect.

Let’s say you have 50% of your stats invested in damage stats, you would think that that comes out to half as much damage as someone who has all their stats aligned for damage. But in reality it comes out to much less, because the stats don’t simply add up, they multiply.

That’s the main reason why sets that are only partially focused on damage perform so much worse in that department. This is the huge trap with gear in this game. In most games there are diminishing returns on stacking all the same stat so that more hybrid gear has a reason to exist. In this game just surrendering 10% of your damage stats will already dump your damage by twice that.

Khristophoros.7194:

The point of this thread was to talk about how you can ruin your DPS easily by mixing sets in power builds. A lot of people do that and that’s why a lot of PUGs in PvE have low DPS.

Mixing stats is not that bad. For example soldier armour rest zerk should be ok. afaik its like ~25% damage loss, which is ok for a beginner, a bad group or when you’re lazy.

A bad build without dmg modifiers can cause a huge dps loss.
For example a meta guard has atm 7% vs burning, 10% in symbols, 5% for GS, 10% retaliation, ~3% for boons -> ~40% damage in an ideal situation.
Scholar can give 10%, sigil of force+night 5% 10%, potion 10% -> ~40%. Both together ~96%.
Vulnerability is also helpful, in many dungeon pugs vuln is very low – like 5%.

TL; DR: buy good sigils and runes, use some cheap buffood and potions and do a lot more damage.

Aetrion.8295:

The problem is that the ratio of stats on your character does not determine the ratio of their effect.

Let’s say you have 50% of your stats invested in damage stats, you would think that that comes out to half as much damage as someone who has all their stats aligned for damage. But in reality it comes out to much less, because the stats don’t simply add up, they multiply.

That’s the main reason why sets that are only partially focused on damage perform so much worse in that department. This is the huge trap with gear in this game. In most games there are diminishing returns on stacking all the same stat so that more hybrid gear has a reason to exist. In this game just surrendering 10% of your damage stats will already dump your damage by twice that.

That’s a big exaggeration. Full soldier’s is something like half the damage of full berserker’s, which doesn’t match your claim that giving up 10% of your damage could cut in half your damage.

IIRC the numbers I got were like, full zerker gets you up to around 4.6k effective power which is about double the 2.3k that full soldier’s has.

Now consider the fact that both minors are required to double your damage. That’s 1,922 attribute points. So if we had an option of just taking pure power and nothing else, we could have 1381 + 1922 = 3303 power, 4303 when including the character’s base power. That’s pretty much as good as full zerker because the 4.6k I got included strength runes and +5 power infusions… so the multiplicative scaling people think is so amazing really isn’t.

The fact that you see really huge individual crits complicates the issue, making people believe their average DPS is much higher than it is, although the burst factor of those crits is a major consideration for PvP as well.

But with that said, soldier’s has 60% of its stats in toughness and vitality so that’s why it drops your DPS so hard.

Jockum.1385:

Khristophoros.7194:

The point of this thread was to talk about how you can ruin your DPS easily by mixing sets in power builds. A lot of people do that and that’s why a lot of PUGs in PvE have low DPS.

Mixing stats is not that bad. For example soldier armour rest zerk should be ok. afaik its like ~25% damage loss, which is ok for a beginner, a bad group or when you’re lazy.

A bad build without dmg modifiers can cause a huge dps loss.
For example a meta guard has atm 7% vs burning, 10% in symbols, 5% for GS, 10% retaliation, ~3% for boons -> ~40% damage in an ideal situation.
Scholar can give 10%, sigil of force+night 5% 10%, potion 10% -> ~40%. Both together ~96%.
Vulnerability is also helpful, in many dungeon pugs vuln is very low – like 5%.

TL; DR: buy good sigils and runes, use some cheap buffood and potions and do a lot more damage.

Math tells me that mixing soldier’s always drops your DPS more than mixing in knight’s does.

Khristophoros.7194:

I didn’t look at condi damage stats.

The point of this thread was to talk about how you can ruin your DPS easily by mixing sets in power builds. A lot of people do that and that’s why a lot of PUGs in PvE have low DPS.

Tbh I think even pugs understand that having less power, crit chance and critdamage means you do less direct damage. There are only 2 sets that give that. Its not complicated. In PvE people have low dps because they choose to, which is often the veterans that explore other options (such as condi on specific classes) or people that just dont care and play casually.

TexZero.7910:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

I think the message that most players should be taking from this thread is that simply because celestial makes all of your stats “okay” does not mean any of them are good or even great…. and the only time you will really truly reap the benefits of celestial gear is in a scenario other than general pve.

Or you have a class that can utilize all of the cele stats and already have a group with sufficient stats as to not warrant going any other stat combination.

Please, oh endowed one, enlighten me with the knowledge you possess which evades me and the rest of the veteran community as to which class is better off running celestial stats over berzerker’s (in general pve).

So OP, zerker glass cannon good, all else bad? I’ll remember that next time I’m rezzing those cannons in a dungeon or world event. This thread seems utterly pointless unless the point was to restart the zerker argument again.

Ok, I’ll play along. My build philosophy is as it has been since the early years of GW1; survive, damage, buff/help others, in that order of importance. Great if your char can do massive hits, not so great when you’re lay on the ground squealing for a rezz while others are busy trying to finish the fight. Or, how much better is zerker DPS when a lot of zerkers spend half a fight lay on the ground doing zero DPS? And worse, detracting from others’ DPS as they stop fighting to rezz, haha, thereby causing negative DPS!

Face rolling button mashers will always prefer zerker, those of us that know how to dodge and use attributes/runes/sigils/food/utilities know there are other options available which may help keep you alive longer. That’s not to say those people won’t still use full zerker just that I, or others like me, may need to rezz them less often.

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

So OP, zerker glass cannon good, all else bad? I’ll remember that next time I’m rezzing those cannons in a dungeon or world event. This thread seems utterly pointless unless the point was to restart the zerker argument again.

Ok, I’ll play along. My build philosophy is as it has been since the early years of GW1; survive, damage, buff/help others, in that order of importance. Great if your char can do massive hits, not so great when you’re lay on the ground squealing for a rezz while others are busy trying to finish the fight. Or, how much better is zerker DPS when a lot of zerkers spend half a fight lay on the ground doing zero DPS? And worse, detracting from others’ DPS as they stop fighting to rezz, haha, thereby causing negative DPS!

Face rolling button mashers will always prefer zerker, those of us that know how to dodge and use attributes/runes/sigils/food/utilities know there are other options available which may help keep you alive longer. That’s not to say those people won’t still use full zerker just that I, or others like me, may need to rezz them less often.

I see this bad argument all the time. Can you tell me in what imaginary world are you ressing zerker wearers any more often than others? No amount of toughness or vitality is going to save you from the things that one shot in this game so if you’re dying it is because you’re not dodging/blocking/blinding/using your utility correctly. It has nothing to do with your gear.

This will sound bad but … you really did a research to prove that if you lower your offensive stats you’ll have less offensive power?

dom.2748:

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

So OP, zerker glass cannon good, all else bad? I’ll remember that next time I’m rezzing those cannons in a dungeon or world event. This thread seems utterly pointless unless the point was to restart the zerker argument again.

Ok, I’ll play along. My build philosophy is as it has been since the early years of GW1; survive, damage, buff/help others, in that order of importance. Great if your char can do massive hits, not so great when you’re lay on the ground squealing for a rezz while others are busy trying to finish the fight. Or, how much better is zerker DPS when a lot of zerkers spend half a fight lay on the ground doing zero DPS? And worse, detracting from others’ DPS as they stop fighting to rezz, haha, thereby causing negative DPS!

Face rolling button mashers will always prefer zerker, those of us that know how to dodge and use attributes/runes/sigils/food/utilities know there are other options available which may help keep you alive longer. That’s not to say those people won’t still use full zerker just that I, or others like me, may need to rezz them less often.

I see this bad argument all the time. Can you tell me in what imaginary world are you ressing zerker wearers any more often than others? No amount of toughness or vitality is going to save you from the things that one shot in this game so if you’re dying it is because you’re not dodging/blocking/blinding/using your utility correctly. It has nothing to do with your gear.

So, if stuff can one shot you then why bother with any defensive stats at all? That’s your argument? That just seems to prove my point that badly run glass cannons tend to die more often. The rest was just repeating what I already said about dodging, etc. Thanks for your help.

Oh, and the imaginary world is Tyria.

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

Face rolling button mashers will always prefer zerker, those of us that know how to dodge a

Why would you need tanky stats if you “know how to dodge”? It’s quite the opposite, Berserkers have to learn to dodge because otherwise they go down constantly, people in full nomads can ignore things like dodging.

NikeEU.7690:

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

Face rolling button mashers will always prefer zerker, those of us that know how to dodge a

Why would you need tanky stats if you “know how to dodge”? It’s quite the opposite, Berserkers have to learn to dodge because otherwise they go down constantly, people in full nomads can ignore things like dodging.

Lol, because there are things that can one shot you! Seriously though, the best defence is to not get hit, doesn’t matter if you can withstand that hit or not. It’s best to not need to constantly spam your heal on cooldown. Quite a simple concept really. Also, I don’t wear nomads armour. My hybrid stats follow a different path.

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

dom.2748:

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

So OP, zerker glass cannon good, all else bad? I’ll remember that next time I’m rezzing those cannons in a dungeon or world event. This thread seems utterly pointless unless the point was to restart the zerker argument again.

Ok, I’ll play along. My build philosophy is as it has been since the early years of GW1; survive, damage, buff/help others, in that order of importance. Great if your char can do massive hits, not so great when you’re lay on the ground squealing for a rezz while others are busy trying to finish the fight. Or, how much better is zerker DPS when a lot of zerkers spend half a fight lay on the ground doing zero DPS? And worse, detracting from others’ DPS as they stop fighting to rezz, haha, thereby causing negative DPS!

Face rolling button mashers will always prefer zerker, those of us that know how to dodge and use attributes/runes/sigils/food/utilities know there are other options available which may help keep you alive longer. That’s not to say those people won’t still use full zerker just that I, or others like me, may need to rezz them less often.

I see this bad argument all the time. Can you tell me in what imaginary world are you ressing zerker wearers any more often than others? No amount of toughness or vitality is going to save you from the things that one shot in this game so if you’re dying it is because you’re not dodging/blocking/blinding/using your utility correctly. It has nothing to do with your gear.

So, if stuff can one shot you then why bother with any defensive stats at all? That’s your argument? That just seems to prove my point that badly run glass cannons tend to die more often. The rest was just repeating what I already said about dodging, etc. Thanks for your help.

Oh, and the imaginary world is Tyria.

No, you don’t need defensive stats because they add no protection. They are quite literally a waste of stats. You survive by dodging, blocking, blinding, reflecting, and moving out of red circles. You survive by killing things faster so they can attack less often. You survive by not being a bad player who uses defensive stats as a crutch.

You are very much confused and backwards on the matter. Zerker players die less because they use more active defenses. Passive defenses are essentially useless in this game.

Jockum.1385:

Khristophoros.7194:

The point of this thread was to talk about how you can ruin your DPS easily by mixing sets in power builds. A lot of people do that and that’s why a lot of PUGs in PvE have low DPS.

Mixing stats is not that bad. For example soldier armour rest zerk should be ok. afaik its like ~25% damage loss, which is ok for a beginner, a bad group or when you’re lazy.

A bad build without dmg modifiers can cause a huge dps loss.
For example a meta guard has atm 7% vs burning, 10% in symbols, 5% for GS, 10% retaliation, ~3% for boons -> ~40% damage in an ideal situation.
Scholar can give 10%, sigil of force+night 5% 10%, potion 10% -> ~40%. Both together ~96%.
Vulnerability is also helpful, in many dungeon pugs vuln is very low – like 5%.

TL; DR: buy good sigils and runes, use some cheap buffood and potions and do a lot more damage.

are you sure it multiplies?
and its not just 70%?

The loss from soldiers gear is much larger than 25%. You’re missing both precision and ferocity. If we just assume it is armor only, so you’re still using zerker weapons and trinkets you’re still losing 315 precision and ferocity. That is a massive amount of damage loss. And with very little payoff because the toughness and vitality of soldiers simply doesn’t help you.

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

My hybrid stats follow a different path.

We can all only guess and marvel at the uniqueness of your particular snowflake.

dom.2748:

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

dom.2748:

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

So OP, zerker glass cannon good, all else bad? I’ll remember that next time I’m rezzing those cannons in a dungeon or world event. This thread seems utterly pointless unless the point was to restart the zerker argument again.

Ok, I’ll play along. My build philosophy is as it has been since the early years of GW1; survive, damage, buff/help others, in that order of importance. Great if your char can do massive hits, not so great when you’re lay on the ground squealing for a rezz while others are busy trying to finish the fight. Or, how much better is zerker DPS when a lot of zerkers spend half a fight lay on the ground doing zero DPS? And worse, detracting from others’ DPS as they stop fighting to rezz, haha, thereby causing negative DPS!

Face rolling button mashers will always prefer zerker, those of us that know how to dodge and use attributes/runes/sigils/food/utilities know there are other options available which may help keep you alive longer. That’s not to say those people won’t still use full zerker just that I, or others like me, may need to rezz them less often.

I see this bad argument all the time. Can you tell me in what imaginary world are you ressing zerker wearers any more often than others? No amount of toughness or vitality is going to save you from the things that one shot in this game so if you’re dying it is because you’re not dodging/blocking/blinding/using your utility correctly. It has nothing to do with your gear.

So, if stuff can one shot you then why bother with any defensive stats at all? That’s your argument? That just seems to prove my point that badly run glass cannons tend to die more often. The rest was just repeating what I already said about dodging, etc. Thanks for your help.

Oh, and the imaginary world is Tyria.

No, you don’t need defensive stats because they add no protection. They are quite literally a waste of stats. You survive by dodging, blocking, blinding, reflecting, and moving out of red circles. You survive by killing things faster so they can attack less often. You survive by not being a bad player who uses defensive stats as a crutch.

You are very much confused and backwards on the matter. Zerker players die less because they use more active defenses. Passive defenses are essentially useless in this game.

And here we are back at my original point. This thread is utterly pointless unless it was to start the zerker argument again!

There is no point in my trying to teach a blind man the difference between red and blue; and also there is also no point in trying to teach…..

I can see you are becoming angry by the tone of your last post so I’ll leave it there before more posts of that nature cause this thread to be closed. Just be glad there are people like me in game to continue to rezz badly run zerkers.

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

dom.2748:

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

dom.2748:

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

So OP, zerker glass cannon good, all else bad? I’ll remember that next time I’m rezzing those cannons in a dungeon or world event. This thread seems utterly pointless unless the point was to restart the zerker argument again.

Ok, I’ll play along. My build philosophy is as it has been since the early years of GW1; survive, damage, buff/help others, in that order of importance. Great if your char can do massive hits, not so great when you’re lay on the ground squealing for a rezz while others are busy trying to finish the fight. Or, how much better is zerker DPS when a lot of zerkers spend half a fight lay on the ground doing zero DPS? And worse, detracting from others’ DPS as they stop fighting to rezz, haha, thereby causing negative DPS!

Face rolling button mashers will always prefer zerker, those of us that know how to dodge and use attributes/runes/sigils/food/utilities know there are other options available which may help keep you alive longer. That’s not to say those people won’t still use full zerker just that I, or others like me, may need to rezz them less often.

I see this bad argument all the time. Can you tell me in what imaginary world are you ressing zerker wearers any more often than others? No amount of toughness or vitality is going to save you from the things that one shot in this game so if you’re dying it is because you’re not dodging/blocking/blinding/using your utility correctly. It has nothing to do with your gear.

So, if stuff can one shot you then why bother with any defensive stats at all? That’s your argument? That just seems to prove my point that badly run glass cannons tend to die more often. The rest was just repeating what I already said about dodging, etc. Thanks for your help.

Oh, and the imaginary world is Tyria.

No, you don’t need defensive stats because they add no protection. They are quite literally a waste of stats. You survive by dodging, blocking, blinding, reflecting, and moving out of red circles. You survive by killing things faster so they can attack less often. You survive by not being a bad player who uses defensive stats as a crutch.

You are very much confused and backwards on the matter. Zerker players die less because they use more active defenses. Passive defenses are essentially useless in this game.

And here we are back at my original point. This thread is utterly pointless unless it was to start the zerker argument again!

There is no point in my trying to teach a blind man the difference between red and blue; and also there is also no point in trying to teach…..

I can see you are becoming angry by the tone of your last post so I’ll leave it there before more posts of that nature cause this thread to be closed. Just be glad there are people like me in game to continue to rezz badly run zerkers.

If you res zerker players, you must not do much in game since zerkers don’t die any more often than anybody else.

I’m not sure why this is supposed to be surprising. You lose damage by choosing tankier armor… which is how it’s supposed to work.

A single player using a glass build no will not die due to being able dodge which only protects yourself.

Running a slight power loss for toughness/ViT and improved support extended Regens ect allow people to be ressed in situations where Glass types can not walk , while those glass users are dodging , other glass users are dying during that time .

in this window of lost opportunity comes the cost of running Glass or builds with very low Vitality or toughness.

Beserkers , glass are important but so are toughness and Vitality just as important .

during the window where those glass builds are forced into the defensive vs Large Hp creatures or high damage veterans , typicaly in a non- Zerg situation and good example is a flank on Teq with 20 players 6 of those player get Seperated by the tidal wave , A zerker can not go back to res without the High risk of being killed During the Res , meaning he will have to Cancel the res > leaving the downed player to die .

the even more important part of this is Getting back into the fight under Heavy damage from the mobs Drawed in by the attempted Res now you have to Escape without Luring back those creatures putting unwanted pressure on the group , and creates a snowball situation one after the other of which you must Change targets Burn/burst down the advancing mobs which a player could not sustain himself to res now risking two downed and one dead.

the Escapee , the helper and the dead failed res attempt , in this situation a glass helping glass in which he can not help without risking his own death , and then again draws a second person into the fray to help the downed player.

if everyone used Glass/Damage there is no way to sustain players with on going mob Assualts which Redirect damage away from the main target more and more players Are drawn to resing , which is to why a lot of people say don’t Res downed at all> which leads to reduced Dps fights take way longer , the amount of players Actively Dpsing the target is greatly reduced and its nothing but a Res>run>WP> damage spending 50% of the event Resing or Dodging while avoiding mobs.

as to my comment Zerkers are just as important as Toughness+vit / power classes or even those that run at a slight power Reduction to help sustain Dps upkeep and preventing Deaths , when dodging is just not enough.

and i expect more events of this complexity to become more common , though that excludes general PvE world events like Escorts which are Desigined to be Solo’ed.

Wait…..

Are you saying that zerker is optimal DPS????

WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN!

Orangensaft.7139:

are you sure it multiplies?

Wiki says so, so yes.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage_calculation:
—>
“Damage multipliers are combined multiplicatively. For example the Superior Sigil of Force (5%), Superior Sigil of the Night (10%), a 10% trait, a 20% trait and the (6) bonus of the Superior Rune of the Scholar (10%) combine to roughly 68% more damage (1.05 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.1 ? 1.677), not only 55% (the summation). Consequently, combining a lot of multipliers is exponentially effective (”the multipliers increase/affect each other"). "

how is knights more damage output than soldiers? soldiers is a power main, and knights is a toughness main.

are you sure you don’t mean captains? (same stats as knights, but power main instead?)

Passes around popcorn to those who are amused by this.

Jockum, it’s not exponential. Exponential means it’s raising the damage by powers of a specific number (x to the power of n), not by a percentage. If that exponentially was in the actual wiki post, then that person doesn’t know math as well as he thinks he does. Or I am just nitpicking over the details. Actually, I am nitpicking over the details, since that seems to be the entire point of this thread.

Honestly, I could care less about running full whatever. If a person wants to run something other than zerker, then they will run something other than zerker. Just because it’s the ideal dps build, does not mean it is ideal for every player. Or they just want to play something different. Don’t know, don’t care. But hey, if people want to argue over this, go right ahead, I can use the entertainment.

Oh, and Draknar, nice bit of amusing sarcasm there, I got a chuckle out of it.

roachsrealm.9284:

how is knights more damage output than soldiers? soldiers is a power main, and knights is a toughness main

Toughness, Power, Precision vs. Power, Toughness, Vitality

Khristophoros.7194:

That’s a big exaggeration. Full soldier’s is something like half the damage of full berserker’s, which doesn’t match your claim that giving up 10% of your damage could cut in half your damage.

IIRC the numbers I got were like, full zerker gets you up to around 4.6k effective power which is about double the 2.3k that full soldier’s has.

That’s an extremely hinky calculation because you aren’t taking into account that power itself is a multiplicative stat that factors into the base damage of an attack together with its damage coefficient. Crit and crit severity doesn’t come into play until after base damage is established.

There seem to be 2 types of zerk discussions on the forums, this is one of them.

Its about balance. Play what’s comfortable for you. Some people do great in zerk, some not as much. This is a conversation about PvE yes? If someone chooses more defensive stats then offense its their choice. But if your defense is relying on the boss being dead before you are and that doesn’t happen it’s not the other players fault or their dps, its your own.

Things to consider, some people work with the mentality that dead people do 0 damage. Some people also don’t switch gear out when going from WvW to PvE.
Squishy in WvW means you are a priority and first down so that you become a rez bot for your team. And, some people like to play support.

On the comment that zerks don’t die more, I would have to see stats from ANet about that. But I have asked people after Teq that I rezzed alot what gear they were running, and so far the biggest group reply has been zerk. As I said works for some people but have also seen it not work for a lot of people.

So again, if you perform well in zerk, great enjoy. If you are a liability to your side, you might want to switch some things out till you find a balance for your playstyle. Good hunting!

jgcd.6041:

Exponential means it’s raising the damage by powers of a specific number (x to the power of n), not by a percentage. If that exponentially was in the actual wiki post, then that person doesn’t know math as well as he thinks he does.

If you got three 10% mods it is 1,1³ instead of 3*0,1+1.
(the wiki article has afaik some mistakes in it)

TheBlackLeech.9360:

TexZero.7910:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

I think the message that most players should be taking from this thread is that simply because celestial makes all of your stats “okay” does not mean any of them are good or even great…. and the only time you will really truly reap the benefits of celestial gear is in a scenario other than general pve.

Or you have a class that can utilize all of the cele stats and already have a group with sufficient stats as to not warrant going any other stat combination.

Please, oh endowed one, enlighten me with the knowledge you possess which evades me and the rest of the veteran community as to which class is better off running celestial stats over berzerker’s (in general pve).

Reading on these forums is certainly strong i see.

I said certain classes yes, the two predominate ones being Ele and Engie. They both can utilizes the stats far greater than any other class out there. Does it make it optimal, no.

It also means that should a party as stated above already have sufficient damage output, it doesn’t matter what stats you bring. To prove this all you have to do is go join a “zerk only” run where they never ask you to ping gear and wear any other stat.

9/10 times you wont even get the odd look.

I’ll follow the assumption of the argument that you suddenly forget how to dodge the moment you put on zerker’s gear. To put the options into perspective I’ll take gw2power’s interpretation of my ele, which btw feels quite accurate:

Zerker:
effective power = ~5400
effective health = ~12500

Soldier:
effective power = ~3000
effective health = ~33500

Knights:
effective power = ~3600
effective health = ~21000

Zerker with Soldier jewelry:
effective power = ~4100
effective health = ~21500

Zerker with Knight jewelry:
effective power = ~4400
effective health = ~17000

tldr: knights is horrible, soldier loses around 45% of zerker damage while at least offering facetankability

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

Or, how much better is zerker DPS when a lot of zerkers spend half a fight lay on the ground doing zero DPS?

Taking into account the opening burst, above calculations show that in fact a zerker that literally spends half the fight dead does the same damage as a soldier that goes full throttle for 100% of the fight. Have him in down-state for a few seconds before dying and he overtakes the soldier in damage. (The argument is even more absurd when it’s backed up by numbers I just realized xD)

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

negative DPS!

This is an argument that only anti-zerker-meta players will understand, so I won’t touch on it. Just highlighting it for now.

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

Face rolling button mashers will always prefer zerker, those of us that know how to dodge and use attributes/runes/sigils/food/utilities know there are other options available which may help keep you alive longer.

So your argument is that dodging and utility skills are tied into non-zerker stats?

TheGrimm.5624:

On the comment that zerks don’t die more, I would have to see stats from ANet about that. But I have asked people after Teq that I rezzed alot what gear they were running, and so far the biggest group reply has been zerk. As I said works for some people but have also seen it not work for a lot of people.

So again, if you perform well in zerk, great enjoy. If you are a liability to your side, you might want to switch some things out till you find a balance for your playstyle. Good hunting!

If you ask people that don’t die on teq you will get the same answer: mostly zerk… It’s because that’s what people wear on a critable boss that has easy mechanics.

I do agree with your last point. I couldn’t have said it any better.

You get downed all the time in zerker gear, it just doesn’t matter because as long as you keep tagging enemies for a rally the quick kill speed of your party will ensure you get back up faster than you could even be revived most of the time.

If you play Elementalist and have the extra lava font while downed your DPS actually goes up if you periodically go down while in a group of enemies.

Bawi.9541:

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

Or, how much better is zerker DPS when a lot of zerkers spend half a fight lay on the ground doing zero DPS?

Taking into account the opening burst, above calculations show that in fact a zerker that literally spends half the fight dead does the same damage as a soldier that goes full throttle for 100% of the fight. Have him in down-state for a few seconds before dying and he overtakes the soldier in damage. (The argument is even more absurd when it’s backed up by numbers I just realized xD)

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

negative DPS!

This is an argument that only anti-zerker-meta players will understand, so I won’t touch on it. Just highlighting it for now.

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

Face rolling button mashers will always prefer zerker, those of us that know how to dodge and use attributes/runes/sigils/food/utilities know there are other options available which may help keep you alive longer.

So your argument is that dodging and utility skills are tied into non-zerker stats?

Misrepresenting my argument with a fine example of the Strawman logical fallacy. Well done, at least you gave me a good chuckle. Briefly i’ll correct some of your misrepresentations while I still chuckle. I won’t argue with your figures, just mention that at no point did I list my armour/runes/sigils/etc combination so your figures seem to be based upon an assumption which you then use to prove a point.

1) If a player is happy to lie dead, upscale a boss fight and watch other players earn their rewards for them then fine, its a playstyle I don’t understand but whatever floats your boat.

2) The whole sentence read, “And worse, detracting from others’ DPS as they stop fighting to rezz, haha, thereby causing negative DPS!” If you don’t wish to touch on a point why touch on it by misrepresenting it? The sentence is self explanatory, provided most of the words are not pulled from it.

3) Another misrepresentation of my point. The remainder of which read, “Thats not to say those people won’t still use full zerker just that I, or others like me, may need to rezz them less often.” Thereby stating that those zerker users who are not button mashers will die less often than those who are and in no way implying that the use of zerker stats ruled out use of dodging, etc.

All in all, a fine example of trolling and I thank you for the laugh. I need to go now though as I have GW2 open and i’m sure I can hear calls for rezzing!! :P

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

Bawi.9541:

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

Or, how much better is zerker DPS when a lot of zerkers spend half a fight lay on the ground doing zero DPS?

Taking into account the opening burst, above calculations show that in fact a zerker that literally spends half the fight dead does the same damage as a soldier that goes full throttle for 100% of the fight. Have him in down-state for a few seconds before dying and he overtakes the soldier in damage. (The argument is even more absurd when it’s backed up by numbers I just realized xD)

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

negative DPS!

This is an argument that only anti-zerker-meta players will understand, so I won’t touch on it. Just highlighting it for now.

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

Face rolling button mashers will always prefer zerker, those of us that know how to dodge and use attributes/runes/sigils/food/utilities know there are other options available which may help keep you alive longer.

So your argument is that dodging and utility skills are tied into non-zerker stats?

Misrepresenting my argument with a fine example of the Strawman logical fallacy. Well done, at least you gave me a good chuckle. Briefly i’ll correct some of your misrepresentations while I still chuckle. I won’t argue with your figures, just mention that at no point did I list my armour/runes/sigils/etc combination so your figures seem to be based upon an assumption which you then use to prove a point.

1) If a player is happy to lie dead, upscale a boss fight and watch other players earn their rewards for them then fine, its a playstyle I don’t understand but whatever floats your boat.

2) The whole sentence read, “And worse, detracting from others’ DPS as they stop fighting to rezz, haha, thereby causing negative DPS!” If you don’t wish to touch on a point why touch on it by misrepresenting it? The sentence is self explanatory, provided most of the words are not pulled from it.

3) Another misrepresentation of my point. The remainder of which read, “Thats not to say those people won’t still use full zerker just that I, or others like me, may need to rezz them less often.” Thereby stating that those zerker users who are not button mashers will die less often than those who are and in no way implying that the use of zerker stats ruled out use of dodging, etc.

All in all, a fine example of trolling and I thank you for the laugh. I need to go now though as I have GW2 open and i’m sure I can hear calls for rezzing!! :P

But you’re the one making up strawman arguments. You already do less DPS than a zerker, and zerkers don’t die any more often than you do. A bad zerker will die just as often as any other bad player. I am staying alive and doing more damage than you, so should I say you’re just as bad as the dead bad players because of your equal lack of dps?

There really is more to the game than dps. Just fyi.

Morfedel.4165:

There really is more to the game than dps. Just fyi.

Not in this game there isn’t. Maybe in HoT…. maybe. But the current game has pretty much zero cause for passive defenses.

dom.2748:

Morfedel.4165:

There really is more to the game than dps. Just fyi.

Not in this game there isn’t. Maybe in HoT…. maybe. But the current game has pretty much zero cause for passive defenses.

Thats funny. I ran a celestial build with traveller runes in Arah with my mesmer. Watched as three of the other four players (guild mates so it was friendly but still) giving me a hard time for not running zerkers.

And they died and had to reset a few times. And although I survived each time, I had to go retreat anyway and wait for them to respawn and reset the fight.

And the times we ran through arah, I got to the goals each time and waited, patiently, as one or two of them would die and reset and reset and….

I know. I already know your response. They must suck. Well, I have a few responses to that:

1. I see that happen more often than you’d think. Sometimes its just one or two dying, but that sometimes becomes enough we have to reset anyway
2. Sometimes running from one place to another can be harrowing, and deaths occur then too.
3. You only have so much endurance, and sooner or later you’re going to get tagged. I spend more time than I like reviving downed zerkers because they either sucked at dodging, or just ran out of endurance.
3. Being human, we just mistime something, or maybe our keyboard’s acting up, or whatever
4. Frankly, not everyone CAN dodge as well as others. zerker sets, as such, simply are not the best answer for everyone. Unless they should just stop playing the game?

I realize there are some people out there that are so good at the game, at knowing the patterns, and timing their dodges perfectly that that rarely happens to them. But I’ve watched people make the claim that they dont need defensive sets go down a few minutes after making that claim. It makes me chuckle and shake my head.

Of course, I’m talking about in pve. In pvp it becomes even more significant: if you are wearing full offensive armor such as zerkers, and a zerker thief backstabs you from stealth, you are almost certainly going down in one hit. I’ve seen thieves easily top well over 16k damage in one hit, and taking down someone in one blow.

Going with some defensive stats gives you at least a chance to survive that first hit and be able to go defensive or counter. Its VERY hard to defend against a stealthed thief who can one shot you. There are obvious exceptions.

No, they don’t suck. They died because you weren’t running zerker. Not enough damage to kill things fast enough. You killed your party, good job.

dom.2748:

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

Bawi.9541:

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

Or, how much better is zerker DPS when a lot of zerkers spend half a fight lay on the ground doing zero DPS?

Taking into account the opening burst, above calculations show that in fact a zerker that literally spends half the fight dead does the same damage as a soldier that goes full throttle for 100% of the fight. Have him in down-state for a few seconds before dying and he overtakes the soldier in damage. (The argument is even more absurd when it’s backed up by numbers I just realized xD)

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

negative DPS!

This is an argument that only anti-zerker-meta players will understand, so I won’t touch on it. Just highlighting it for now.

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

Face rolling button mashers will always prefer zerker, those of us that know how to dodge and use attributes/runes/sigils/food/utilities know there are other options available which may help keep you alive longer.

So your argument is that dodging and utility skills are tied into non-zerker stats?

Misrepresenting my argument with a fine example of the Strawman logical fallacy. Well done, at least you gave me a good chuckle. Briefly i’ll correct some of your misrepresentations while I still chuckle. I won’t argue with your figures, just mention that at no point did I list my armour/runes/sigils/etc combination so your figures seem to be based upon an assumption which you then use to prove a point.

1) If a player is happy to lie dead, upscale a boss fight and watch other players earn their rewards for them then fine, its a playstyle I don’t understand but whatever floats your boat.

2) The whole sentence read, “And worse, detracting from others’ DPS as they stop fighting to rezz, haha, thereby causing negative DPS!” If you don’t wish to touch on a point why touch on it by misrepresenting it? The sentence is self explanatory, provided most of the words are not pulled from it.

3) Another misrepresentation of my point. The remainder of which read, “Thats not to say those people won’t still use full zerker just that I, or others like me, may need to rezz them less often.” Thereby stating that those zerker users who are not button mashers will die less often than those who are and in no way implying that the use of zerker stats ruled out use of dodging, etc.

All in all, a fine example of trolling and I thank you for the laugh. I need to go now though as I have GW2 open and i’m sure I can hear calls for rezzing!! :P

But you’re the one making up strawman arguments. You already do less DPS than a zerker, and zerkers don’t die any more often than you do. A bad zerker will die just as often as any other bad player. I am staying alive and doing more damage than you, so should I say you’re just as bad as the dead bad players because of your equal lack of dps?

Hi Dom. Your earlier rant/personal abuse towards me kinda makes me not wish to respond to your comments again and especially when I was actually addressing another player comments.

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

Misrepresenting my argument with a fine example of the Strawman logical fallacy. Well done, at least you gave me a good chuckle. Briefly i’ll correct some of your misrepresentations while I still chuckle. I won’t argue with your figures, just mention that at no point did I list my armour/runes/sigils/etc combination so your figures seem to be based upon an assumption which you then use to prove a point.

1) If a player is happy to lie dead, upscale a boss fight and watch other players earn their rewards for them then fine, its a playstyle I don’t understand but whatever floats your boat.

2) The whole sentence read, “And worse, detracting from others’ DPS as they stop fighting to rezz, haha, thereby causing negative DPS!” If you don’t wish to touch on a point why touch on it by misrepresenting it? The sentence is self explanatory, provided most of the words are not pulled from it.

3) Another misrepresentation of my point. The remainder of which read, “Thats not to say those people won’t still use full zerker just that I, or others like me, may need to rezz them less often.” Thereby stating that those zerker users who are not button mashers will die less often than those who are and in no way implying that the use of zerker stats ruled out use of dodging, etc.

All in all, a fine example of trolling and I thank you for the laugh. I need to go now though as I have GW2 open and i’m sure I can hear calls for rezzing!! :P

You are the one making strawman arguments, not me. Feel free to link your gear setup. Just realize that those number were actually being gracious by using offensive everything and just replacing gear with soldier stats, which again is being gracious. I’m always eager to learn – even if that means being proven wrong. I have a feeling though you won’t (be able to) deliver.
I’m glad that I made you happy. For all the wrong reasons and your manic chuckling is kinda annoying, but it is what it is.

1) One of your numerous strawmen. I’m not advertising this playstyle. I’m only ‘proving’ that a zerker that’s dead 50% of the time is doing as much upscaling and as much damage as a soldier that never downs/ never rezzes/ has the same uptime. Anything better than that and they will grant benefits that you will not be able to offer, however good you are playing. It’s a numbers game.

2) You are the one lowering your dps both by not going zerker AND by rezzing zerkers. Good zerkers don’t get downed as often, average zerkers rally off other zerkers kills, bad zerkers are a lost case either way.

3) Bad players will down if you paint them in zerker, or in soldier, or in nomads. The threshold for getting downed as zerker is lower, obviously, but if you want to survive as zerker you can. And if you want to get downed as soldier you will find a way. My point is that playskill is a much more ‘responsive’ variable so to say than gear, when it comes to survival. Even profession probably is, but that’s hard to put in numbers.

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

dom.2748:

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

Bawi.9541:

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

Or, how much better is zerker DPS when a lot of zerkers spend half a fight lay on the ground doing zero DPS?

Taking into account the opening burst, above calculations show that in fact a zerker that literally spends half the fight dead does the same damage as a soldier that goes full throttle for 100% of the fight. Have him in down-state for a few seconds before dying and he overtakes the soldier in damage. (The argument is even more absurd when it’s backed up by numbers I just realized xD)

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

negative DPS!

This is an argument that only anti-zerker-meta players will understand, so I won’t touch on it. Just highlighting it for now.

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

Face rolling button mashers will always prefer zerker, those of us that know how to dodge and use attributes/runes/sigils/food/utilities know there are other options available which may help keep you alive longer.

So your argument is that dodging and utility skills are tied into non-zerker stats?

Misrepresenting my argument with a fine example of the Strawman logical fallacy. Well done, at least you gave me a good chuckle. Briefly i’ll correct some of your misrepresentations while I still chuckle. I won’t argue with your figures, just mention that at no point did I list my armour/runes/sigils/etc combination so your figures seem to be based upon an assumption which you then use to prove a point.

1) If a player is happy to lie dead, upscale a boss fight and watch other players earn their rewards for them then fine, its a playstyle I don’t understand but whatever floats your boat.

2) The whole sentence read, “And worse, detracting from others’ DPS as they stop fighting to rezz, haha, thereby causing negative DPS!” If you don’t wish to touch on a point why touch on it by misrepresenting it? The sentence is self explanatory, provided most of the words are not pulled from it.

3) Another misrepresentation of my point. The remainder of which read, “Thats not to say those people won’t still use full zerker just that I, or others like me, may need to rezz them less often.” Thereby stating that those zerker users who are not button mashers will die less often than those who are and in no way implying that the use of zerker stats ruled out use of dodging, etc.

All in all, a fine example of trolling and I thank you for the laugh. I need to go now though as I have GW2 open and i’m sure I can hear calls for rezzing!! :P

But you’re the one making up strawman arguments. You already do less DPS than a zerker, and zerkers don’t die any more often than you do. A bad zerker will die just as often as any other bad player. I am staying alive and doing more damage than you, so should I say you’re just as bad as the dead bad players because of your equal lack of dps?

Hi Dom. Your earlier rant/personal abuse towards me kinda makes me not wish to respond to your comments again and especially when I was actually addressing another player comments.

I’ve never made a personal rant towards anybody, so all I see now is you trying to dodge the point of my post.

Bawi.9541:

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

Misrepresenting my argument with a fine example of the Strawman logical fallacy. Well done, at least you gave me a good chuckle. Briefly i’ll correct some of your misrepresentations while I still chuckle. I won’t argue with your figures, just mention that at no point did I list my armour/runes/sigils/etc combination so your figures seem to be based upon an assumption which you then use to prove a point.

1) If a player is happy to lie dead, upscale a boss fight and watch other players earn their rewards for them then fine, its a playstyle I don’t understand but whatever floats your boat.

2) The whole sentence read, “And worse, detracting from others’ DPS as they stop fighting to rezz, haha, thereby causing negative DPS!” If you don’t wish to touch on a point why touch on it by misrepresenting it? The sentence is self explanatory, provided most of the words are not pulled from it.

3) Another misrepresentation of my point. The remainder of which read, “Thats not to say those people won’t still use full zerker just that I, or others like me, may need to rezz them less often.” Thereby stating that those zerker users who are not button mashers will die less often than those who are and in no way implying that the use of zerker stats ruled out use of dodging, etc.

All in all, a fine example of trolling and I thank you for the laugh. I need to go now though as I have GW2 open and i’m sure I can hear calls for rezzing!! :P

You are the one making strawman arguments, not me. Feel free to link your gear setup. Just realize that those number were actually being gracious by using offensive everything and just replacing gear with soldier stats, which again is being gracious. I’m always eager to learn – even if that means being proven wrong. I have a feeling though you won’t (be able to) deliver.
I’m glad that I made you happy. For all the wrong reasons and your manic chuckling is kinda annoying, but it is what it is.

1) One of your numerous strawmen. I’m not advertising this playstyle. I’m only ‘proving’ that a zerker that’s dead 50% of the time is doing as much upscaling and as much damage as a soldier that never downs/ never rezzes/ has the same uptime. Anything better than that and they will grant benefits that you will not be able to offer, however good you are playing. It’s a numbers game.

2) You are the one lowering your dps both by not going zerker AND by rezzing zerkers. Good zerkers don’t get downed as often, average zerkers rally off other zerkers kills, bad zerkers are a lost case either way.

3) Bad players will down if you paint them in zerker, or in soldier, or in nomads. The threshold for getting downed as zerker is lower, obviously, but if you want to survive as zerker you can. And if you want to get downed as soldier you will find a way. My point is that playskill is a much more ‘responsive’ variable so to say than gear, when it comes to survival. Even profession probably is, but that’s hard to put in numbers.

Bawi, thats better. I can see we’re both in game now so if you wish to see my gear stats and build i’m happy to ping it all for you after you ping me your full stats and build.

TexZero.7910:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

TexZero.7910:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

I think the message that most players should be taking from this thread is that simply because celestial makes all of your stats “okay” does not mean any of them are good or even great…. and the only time you will really truly reap the benefits of celestial gear is in a scenario other than general pve.

Or you have a class that can utilize all of the cele stats and already have a group with sufficient stats as to not warrant going any other stat combination.

Please, oh endowed one, enlighten me with the knowledge you possess which evades me and the rest of the veteran community as to which class is better off running celestial stats over berzerker’s (in general pve).

Reading on these forums is certainly strong i see.

I said certain classes yes, the two predominate ones being Ele and Engie. They both can utilizes the stats far greater than any other class out there. Does it make it optimal, no.

It also means that should a party as stated above already have sufficient damage output, it doesn’t matter what stats you bring. To prove this all you have to do is go join a “zerk only” run where they never ask you to ping gear and wear any other stat.

9/10 times you wont even get the odd look.

That is your reasoning? You essentially stated that it doesn’t matter if you are running less optimal stats since you can be carried by a majority zerk team. LOL

If a team of 4 zerkers are capable of completing a dungeon without a 5th person, imagine how much faster and smoother things would go with a 5th party member who is actually contributing the same amount as everyone else.

How can you even attempt to use this to justify the use of gear that provides less optimal stats?

In the game, there is no group content that a veteran player has not repeated over and over and over and over again. There is no more stopping to smell the flowers…. and the only reason anyone does COF p1 (for example) for the 600th time is for the money.

When all you want is the money, you want to get from the start of the dungeon to your money as fast and as efficiently as possible.

Otherwise you are just wasting minutes of your life one dungeon or fractal run at a time.

All the healing power toughness and vitality in the world will never make a run go any faster…. and any gear with those stats is a waste in an optimal group.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

TexZero.7910:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

TexZero.7910:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

I think the message that most players should be taking from this thread is that simply because celestial makes all of your stats “okay” does not mean any of them are good or even great…. and the only time you will really truly reap the benefits of celestial gear is in a scenario other than general pve.

Or you have a class that can utilize all of the cele stats and already have a group with sufficient stats as to not warrant going any other stat combination.

Please, oh endowed one, enlighten me with the knowledge you possess which evades me and the rest of the veteran community as to which class is better off running celestial stats over berzerker’s (in general pve).

Reading on these forums is certainly strong i see.

I said certain classes yes, the two predominate ones being Ele and Engie. They both can utilizes the stats far greater than any other class out there. Does it make it optimal, no.

It also means that should a party as stated above already have sufficient damage output, it doesn’t matter what stats you bring. To prove this all you have to do is go join a “zerk only” run where they never ask you to ping gear and wear any other stat.

9/10 times you wont even get the odd look.

That is your reasoning? You essentially stated that it doesn’t matter if you are running less optimal stats since you can be carried by a majority zerk team. LOL

If a team of 4 zerkers are capable of completing a dungeon without a 5th person, imagine how much faster and smoother things would go with a 5th party member who is actually contributing the same amount as everyone else.

How can you even attempt to use this to justify the use of gear that provides less optimal stats?

In the game, there is no group content that a veteran player has not repeated over and over and over and over again. There is no more stopping to smell the flowers…. and the only reason anyone does COF p1 (for example) for the 600th time is for the money.

When all you want is the money, you want to get from the start of the dungeon to your money as fast and as efficiently as possible.

Otherwise you are just wasting minutes of your life one dungeon or fractal run at a time.

All the healing power toughness and vitality in the world will never make a run go any faster…. and any gear with those stats is a waste in an optimal group.

See this is the common misconception of the people who think they understand the speed run crowd.

You claim they aren’t contributing as much, which is solely based on the DPS output. Imagine for a second that each of the 4 you claim are zerker are playing perfectly (unrealistic). At some point there’s only so much damage you can realistically dish out before you achieve overkill. I.E if the boss has 500k HP and you are all doing 125K adding another person is irrelevant regardless of outgoing damage. It wont speed things up, and it wont slow anything down.

Now then since we know that every zerker isnt playing flawlessly, lets get to what adding another person who is providing even the slightest support can do.

Healing – Keeps your party above the 90% threshold allowing your scholar runes/ traits etc to stay in effect

Of the two classes i mentioned both Ele and Engie can do this frequently enough and provide near permanent uptime on sustain boons (prot/regen) for the party.

Again not claiming to be optimal, but claiming viable. Does it matter if the dungeon is completely 200nanoseconds slower ? If it does then please by all means kick the guy. But i’m almost 90% sure you or any other speed run player would be hard pressed to know who in the group isn’t holding their own if you aren’t a pre-made and havent had everyone ping their gears to begin with.