Guild Wars 2

In the latest blog about what Guild Wars 2 is planning to offer in 2013, I felt sad.
Because as usual when a mmorpg starts to settle, it settles on gear, dungeons and currency exchange.

And as usual, it loses focus on expanding what makes the definition of a game :
the gameplay, the interaction.

I’m sorry, but watching my new shiny sword is not interaction.
Watching a cutscene is not interaction.
Watching a boss AOE’ing a zone that a party already avoided is not interaction.
Clicking on “Buy Material, Build sword”, or on a flower is barely interaction.

The interaction is what happens if I use my keyboard, how it happens, and what other ways to interact it opens.

In a word : I was saddened too by this total lack of word about expanding combat mechanics.

For players who are new to the game, or who see the fights as a routine more than a source of excitement, it may be fine. I understand there is an audience who’s happy with repeating the same 4-6 skills for 800 other hours, switching between the same 3-4 build variations, as long as it will give them new visual assets (armor, weapon, etc). Each to his own pleasure, good to them.

But what about mmo players who have been used to these playstyles for literally a decade ? What about people who have spent so many hours in the last 10 years of mmos that they already found all the secrets of their Guild Wars 2 character barely at level 20 ?
And these people are not a few, potentially : in 2012, according to a ESA study, the gamers average age is 30. That means people who are potentially playing videogames since the beginning, and more importantly who may be playing mmos for a decade.

“Back in the days” (yeah old fart style), this very crowd was the kind to spend hours and hours milking class spells data, only to find the best strategies for their playstyle.
Experimenting stuff, testing spells, trying impossible things (even not intended possibilities).
That was called “min maxing” (and no, this didn’t start with WoW). Chunking, mining, trying tons of build templates. Customizing our class playstyle by establishing personal strategies.

The best part of it was that devs answered to that need, and leveraged the mechanics layers more and more. Back in the time …

Now, it just seems like this audience is being completely forgotten. What prevails is Gear, Consumable content, Currency and cosmetics, whatever the mmo. It happens with any of them.
And that’s what the latest blog slammed into my face once again. A currency screenshot, a lot of talk about gear, about occasional events, about socializing … and gear ! Did I mention gear ?

But what about the thrill of the hunt ? The personal strategies ? The tools to animate a fight ?

Personally, I lost that thrill 1 month after release. Skills were understood, situational setups were learned, and trait builds were wrapped up. Switching them kept me entertained for a few more weeks, but it faded quickly. It became muscle memory.

Really, you could promise me 30 new awesomely designed armors, 30 new 6k DPS legendary swords … I couldn’t care less. I’m not playing to watch numbers, or to expose myself in a golden armor so I could impress random players on their way to the bank.
I’m playing to interact with my avatar. To think about how I’m going to react with other’s actions. To use my brain, feel the adrenalin, and most of all not feel bored after the 100th fight.

It’s not necessarly about having more skills. You could perfectly still have 5 skills, but that would dynamically change upon my previous choices, my current build, and my timing.

The commonly used technique in recent mmos to iterate that “thrill of the fight” is bringing new encounters. New “bosses”. But in my opinion, that’s just pushing that layer of interaction one step away from me. Because between the boss and me, there is my avatar. And if I chosed to create this avatar in this world, it’s because I want to interact with him, before having to interact with a NPC.
Tyria is already huge, there are already tons of reasons to lurk in its woods, in its plains, in its deserts and oasis for hours. But right now, I wish those tons of reasons to interact started in the very first layer : my character. My skills. My traits. My choices. The moves and actions he/she makes when I push buttons, and its effects on my target.

The gamedesign team did a fantastic job with the core combat mechanics, as they are clean, simple, and promising. They’re not a mess like other WoW clones. Plus the tools are already there : cross class combos, dynamically changing skills, and some clever boons/conditions. It just needs way more layers of choices.

TL;DR : please MMO industry, stop forgetting your nerds.

I read that entire thing and didn’t understand what you were complaining about, is it that you want more skills?

Sithaco.4673:

I read that entire thing and didn’t understand what you were complaining about, is it that you want more skills?

Nope, OP wants GW2 to be like all other MMO. Clearly, he didn’t learn about the game he was buying and he couldn’t get used to GW2 because he spent 10 years+ playing other MMO. He says it right here:

kineticdamage.6279:

But what about mmo players who have been used to this type of interaction for literally a decade ? What about people who have spent so many hours in the last 10 years of mmos that they already found all the secrets of their Guild Wars 2 character barely at level 20 ?

OP, I suggest less drama and more direct and clear points. At fight glance I thought you wanted Virtual Reality interaction.

Sithaco.4673:

I read that entire thing and didn’t understand what you were complaining about, is it that you want more skills?

I dunno, the way he was going on about interacting I’d have guessed he’s on about virtual reality.

Joking aside, I think he’s asking for more character customisation in terms of combat style (i.e more viable builds)

I dunno. There was too much white noise in the speech, imo.

Some people have horrible reading comprehension, man it happend on my (now deleted ) thread, i posted a lengthy thread opener, NOT ONE out of the 8 first posters read my post and only read the thread title / first sentencess.

i used paragraphs.

The o.p wants new gameplay mechanics added and more viable skills and i think he would want different / more weapons with different skills plus different skills for the same weapons.

Maybe it’s because, and this is just my guess, nobody wants to read through lots of text which starts with complaining and their relationship to other games. Specifically when it goes on and on trying to compare this game to others. This game is not other games.

I would rather see them polish the mechanics, classes, and skills they already have before adding more, changing (drastically) the ones we have, or completely re-configuring the current system.

Blissified.8369:

Some people have horrible reading comprehension

Just as some people are terribly unclear writers.

To the OP, this game is PvP balanced. If you want to play a game where you can make 10000 different builds, and still have PvP dominated by one or two build that cycle with balance changes, Guild Wars 1 servers are still up. If you’re looking for a game that has that much customization, and where each and every ability works in a balanced action/reaction oriented PvP combat system, too bad, last I checked God isn’t a game designer, your perfect game does not exist and may not even be possible to make.

My experience with the game is that you are supposed to create alts, not tie yourself to one character. So if you haven’t done that, I would start there, as it will open you up to totally different class mechanics which are very refreshing.

I’d also say that the developers have done a bit to introduce new ways to play by putting out new sigils and runes with each update, but this hasn’t been their focus. It’s probably good that they’re progressing cautiously and not introducing big changes to the classes and armor upgrades before they’ve addressed most of the balance and bug issues.

“please MMO industry, stop forgetting your nerds.”

I’d like to hear from OP a good example for an MMO that made him feel different and delivered his needs and why, also why doesn’t he play it anymore.

I seriously recommend single players by the way, I don’t think you’re cut for this game.

Sorry to say but i dont think this is the game for you thats what i got out of it.

I hear you OP. I want more reason to interact with other players, interact with the combat system, more synergy, more depth to the combat system, more defined class roles…i want encounters to be harder, challenging for groups rather than just a solo button masher. I want an MMO, not a casual, singleplayer online CoOp-RPG. I don’t care about grinding for skins or titles, i want the inherent mechanics and combat (main mode of gameplay) to engage me.

I realize that these types of changes are very serious, so i don’t expect them right away. It’s a very precarious process when developing these things, like trying to erect dominoes without knocking the next one over.

I am disappointed in what this next patch is focusing on, but i realize that it’s a more fundamental solution to add more narrative depth, get players playing in all parts of the game, and balance the reward systems. First things first. We can’t have everything perfected at once.

Did you know??? There is a secret route to Canthan…. >=)

Basically the game you’re looking for is GW1, pretty much feel what you’re saying but honestly just do what most of the hardcore guild wars players did and go back to GW1 since it actually offers ALL of this to a “T”. The whole “messing with builds if even at first it seemed like a horrible idea that wouldn’t work” is GW1, I did this stuff all the time, found some gems, found others that were promising and slowly over time refined into amazing builds and then others that were laughably bad but fun/funny to use.

I’ve long since quit GW2, its lack of skills, sub class, pve/pvp versions of skills (granted gw1 didn’t have this to begin but it got it later, why remove such an amazing feature that lead to much better pve and pvp balance, for the most part….). Everything feels boring and generic, the builds/weapons don’t feel any different, still the same old mash 1-5, use utility skills when needed, etc etc even when using a new build and new weapon. Unlike GW1 where a new weapon and build meant an ENTIRELY new style of play and skills needed to play that new build as well as the fact that you wouldn’t always mash your skills in the same order EVERY time and as soon as they were off cooldown, it took timing, precision and skill which was fun to learn and play around with and learn the best ways to do something, honestly what little of this gw2 had was figured out during the beta weekends.

Try The Secret World for a massive dose of options. Why try to change something that you yourself have said does not have what you want? Chances are it is designed in a way you are not interested in.

Was that a poem?

I guess he wants more skills? I guess I wouldn’t mind 7 skills and have to choose 5 per weapon. There is still a lot of room for development in the builds we currently have. I particularly like vsing people who are inclined to play glass cannon builds but lack the skill to play one.

Simon.3106:

Did you know??? There is a secret route to Canthan…. >=)

That’s a lie up there with Mew is under a truck in Vermillion City and Aerith can be revived.

Reading others comments I sort of understand, and agree with you.

GW had, and TSW has to an extent, quite a deep skill system based on setting to get the most out of your skills.

Maybe he has no legs and wants Guild Wars 2 to be just like the movie Avatar. So he can plug himself in and escape his real life fate. (Working at McDonald’s)

I agree with OP. The only profession that is fun to me is the Elementalist because I get to interact more with my avatar. The boss fights are sometimes very stale and require zero interaction, you just stand there slashing/shooting at the enemy for 10mins.

I know this will never happen in GW2, but: a combat system where you carefully interpret the enemys moves and ready an attack / defense to counter their move is something that never gets boring. There are a couple MMORPGs where that combat exists, and it’s awesome. Every fight forces you to pay attention to what the enemy is doing even if it’s an easy one. Because if he is using a counter, you can’t just blindly attack or you’re the one getting hurt. Instead you need to use whatever beats that counter.

Also, having profession selection at the character creation is bad. I spent way too much time picking a profession because I didn’t have a clue which ones I liked. Being able to change class whenever you feel like it or just have no class at all is very appealing to me. I really don’t see why more games don’t take that approach. It has more positive than negative things about it, just needs to be designed right. Players who like playing a single character would be very happy, while people who like making alts could still make them. But how is this related to the topic?

I go off-topic too much…

I’m pretty astonished by the amount of knee-jerk reactions right here … and by the amount of people who mock the OP without having even read it entirely.

Thanks to the few people that took the time to read, understand, and relate.

To others …

Sithaco.4673:

I read that entire thing and didn’t understand what you were complaining about, is it that you want more skills?

The answer is in the OP, at the end :

kineticdamage.6279:

It just needs way more layers of choices.

FateZero.8536:

Nope, OP wants GW2 to be like all other MMO. Clearly, he didn’t learn about the game he was buying and he couldn’t get used to GW2 because he spent 10 years+ playing other MMO.

Failed assumption.
Here is what should have prevented you from assuming such a thing :

kineticdamage.6279:

The gamedesign team did a fantastic job with the core combat mechanics, as they are clean, simple, and promising. They’re not a mess like other WoW clones.

DaedalusDragon.3754:

Maybe it’s because, and this is just my guess, nobody wants to read through lots of text which starts with complaining and their relationship to other games. Specifically when it goes on and on trying to compare this game to others. This game is not other games.

Failed comprehension.
An experience, a feeling, is not tied to a specific game. You can feel the same adrenalin before starting a fight in two totally different games.

HighCAT.5924:

Was that a poem?

Sort of :p
More like an attempt to talk to mmo veterans global experience about what they wishnext gen mmos would bring to the combat mechanics table.

Ok, sorry, English is not my mother tongue, so maybe I sucked at being clear enough.
I juiced up the OP a bit.

But to resume, Blissified got it perfectly :

Blissified.8369:

Some people have horrible reading comprehension, man it happend on my (now deleted ) thread, i posted a lengthy thread opener, NOT ONE out of the 8 first posters read my post and only read the thread title / first sentencess.

i used paragraphs.

The o.p wants new gameplay mechanics added and more viable skills and i think he would want different / more weapons with different skills plus different skills for the same weapons.

That’s exactly the point. With the latest blog, I feel that as usual, yet another mmo will focus on the dreaded [Gear, Bosses, and Currency Exchange] trinity.

I’ve yet to see a mmo that would spend huge chunks of production into expanding gameplay mechanics, once it’s released. The most mechanics addition we could get would be maybe 5-10% more, per year.
In a word : once you chose a class, you’re bound to the same interaction for litterally years.

Why am I expressing this here ? Because Guild Wars 2 has in my opinion the best core mechanics of all mmos. And cherry on the cake : the most flexible ones. There’s just a sour taste of “not enough”. And judging all the communication since 6 monthes, it seems like the evolution efforts are put anywhere but in this domain.

Before release, there were tons of excellent blogs about how they wanted to design new combat mechanics. They even gave us a full wiki with all technical details about each spell effect and intrications. This was just a hardcore mmo gamer’s paradise. The dream of the min-maxer. I have to admit this was 90% of what hyped me for this game. Some data to chunk, to milk. Some strategies to plan, to theorycraft, multiplied by 8 classes …

But now, since release ? Complete silence. Left with the class tricks we already mastered 4 monthes ago, and apparently for 6 more additional monthes.

Ok, some new notes in the blog about balancing and making some builds more viable.
But I just wish there would be something more in future patchnotes than :

Skill #3 does now 30% more damage

kineticdamage.6279:

I’m pretty astonished by the amount of knee-jerk reactions right here … and by the amount of people who mock the OP without having even read it entirely. [Snip]

I’m sorry but in their defense it was very unclear what you were getting at. I figured English wasn’t your mother-tongue but I don’t think others did because you have a very good vocabulary. Next time try to be a bit less florid and verbose and just focus on getting your point across as succinctly as possible. Also a TLDR should really summarise your main points which “please MMO industry, stop forgetting your nerds.” doesn’t do in any way shape or form.

As for the message however, I agree wholeheartedly. There needs to be more depth to the game in term’s of character variety/development. Hopefully the first quarter updates will unlock more potential across the classes with new viable builds and refined combat mechanics but we will really just have to wait and see.

Rhaps.8540:

kineticdamage.6279:

I’m pretty astonished by the amount of knee-jerk reactions right here … and by the amount of people who mock the OP without having even read it entirely. [Snip]

I’m sorry but in their defense it was very unclear what you were getting at. I figured English wasn’t your mother-tongue but I don’t think others did because you have a very good vocabulary. Next time try to be a bit less florid and verbose and just focus on getting your point across as succinctly as possible. Also a TLDR should really summarise your main points which “please MMO industry, stop forgetting your nerds.” doesn’t do in any way shape or form.

As for the message however, I agree wholeheartedly. There needs to be more depth to the game in term’s of character variety/development. Hopefully the first quarter updates will unlock more potential across the classes with new viable builds and refined combat mechanics but we will really just have to wait and see.

I understand about the OP I changed it and clarified it.
About waiting and seeing … Yes, that’s what we should always do. But what gives us the confirmation that it will be worth the wait ? That layers will added ? Normally, that kind of confirmation can be found in dev blogs, just like the ones ANet shared with us during development. But right now … I don’t see one anymore :/

kineticdamage.6279:

TL;DR : please MMO industry, stop forgetting your nerds.

Hard to know what you want as you’re post kind of rambled, but you seem to be saying you want a key-mashing combat system like WOW, where complex ‘rotations’ are used to differentiate the ‘goods’ and the ‘bads’.

As for “trying tons of templates”, fact is most players never did, they went to whichever fansites the min/maxers posted on and cut/pasted whatever skill/talent/whatever builds that particular MMO needed to get TEH BIG NUMBERZ, and derision was cast on those who wanted to do something different because EFFICIENCY is all that matters to the sheep.

A very, very few players KNEW the battle mechanics and were the min/maxers specifying the ‘flavour of the month’ build and the majority of the rest of the playerbase were the sheep that duly did as they were told.

Same goes for ‘learning the mechanics’, a few bleeding-edge players figure out the fights, the sheep watch the videos these elite few put on YouTube and copy those tactics verbatim.

Kraggy.4169:

Hard to know what you want as you’re post kind of rambled, but you seem to be saying you want a key-mashing combat system like WOW, where complex ‘rotations’ are used to differentiate the ‘goods’ and the ‘bads’.

Not necessarly, as being written in the OP :

kineticdamage.6279:

It’s not necessarly about having more skills. You could perfectly still have 5 skills, but that would dynamically change upon my previous choices, my current build, and my timing.

Kraggy.4169:

As for “trying tons of templates”, fact is most players never did, they went to whichever fansites the min/maxers posted on and cut/pasted whatever skill/talent/whatever builds that particular MMO needed to get TEH BIG NUMBERZ, and derision was cast on those who wanted to do something different because EFFICIENCY is all that matters to the sheep.

A very, very few players KNEW the battle mechanics and were the min/maxers specifying the ‘flavour of the month’ build and the majority of the rest of the playerbase were the sheep that duly did as they were told.

Same goes for ‘learning the mechanics’, a few bleeding-edge players figure out the fights, the sheep watch the videos these elite few put on YouTube and copy those tactics verbatim.

I understand the argument, but I always thought it was a non-argument (“always” because it was the one given by devs to reduce choices in any mmo).

There will always be sheeps and followers. People who are too lazy to burn a few neurons on min-maxing, that’s just a fact. But imo it doesn’t mean the min-maxers, the “math heads”, should be penalized for it.

In the same vein, you could also use that argument for dumbing down dungeon bosses to nothing more than hit and run strategies, “because people would read the strategies on the net if they were complex anyway”.

That trend of dumbing everything down because of people who don’t want to think that much is what kills the mmo scene, imo, and to a wider extent the videogame scene.

And even from a professional ethical standpoint, saying “why should I care bringing some choices, if people will copy paste templates anyway ?” .. is incredibly wrong and against evolution.

Don’t you agree ?

ok, I tried to read all of the OP’s post and from what I can decipher there are some key points he has overlooked.

1. GW2 is not just another MMO, GW2 is even different from GW1 in many many aspects right down to similar foes behaving differently between 1 & 2.

2. Skill synergy is still an art form in GW2, I’ve been playing since just after release and only recently found out about combo fields/finishers, and am still working them out. So there is plenty of opportunity to “milk spell data”. And did you know the synergy goes beyond just you, for instance if you have a bow, and an ele lays down some fire, shooting your arrows through the fire ignites them causing burning on impact

3. Builds, while some players have “preferred” builds for different classes, there is lots of room for experimentation and modification. While some builds are designed to be easy to master, others take practice to master. With enough coin and equipment it is not unheard of to have different setups for different situations.

4. The thrill of the hunt. While the most direct path to take in GW2 is to level up as fast as possible, there are many other side paths you can take. For instance did you know there is a drinking achievement? Yes, achievements offer a player something to aim for beyond just levelling and gear grinding. Going back to gear grinding there is also the hunt for precurses, and other exotic items, one of the most sort after ones has yet to still be found (final rest).

5. Variety through interaction, one of the things in GW2 that some people don’t seem to utilise enough is dynamic events. Sure there are events that people stick to and farm for what ever, but in every single map there are dynamic events, and event chains that you can follow that give you variety of game play. Some of these events just happen, while others require you in interact with npc’s to get the event happening (never trust the lady in white).

One of the biggest but less understood features of GW2 is exploration, not only of the world, but of the environment through interaction. Yes it is quite possible to go right through a map and never see a single dynamic event, but if you stop rushing and interact with NPC’s, and object, there is a whole other world out there.

I think the point op is trying to convey, is that the character building is mechanically boring and he would like to see it changed. I can sympathise with that, but I don’t see it happening, since the devs obviously dumbed down the mechanics on purpose, in order to make it more “accessable” for the AAA audience.

Examples are: losing dual classes, locking weapon skills, streamlining conditions and abandoning mechanically different hexes, restricting elites to >90s upwards “gamechangers”, loss of ressource systems in favor of cooldowns, etc.

I don’t mean to say everything about GW2 is bad, but the character building mechanics are too simplified for my tastes.