Guild Wars 2

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

Nick.6972:

Most of the classes/skills in GW2 are not balanced too, GW1 wasn’t balanced, but at least it offered more diversity, hell, how hard was it to increase the Shadow Form CD to 1 minute as it was back in 2007?

There is such a huge difference in the type of imbalance we’re talking about here. The way Guild Wars 1 was set up, there was just no possible way to balance it. I mean, you think 4 zerker warriors and a mesmer are anything like a perma-sin, or a rank 8 ursan? Totally different level of unbalanced.

Imagine if you told Guild Wars 2 players today that a character could make himself immune to damage permanently. Or that a single player, like an imbagon paragon could mitigate 90% of the parties incoming damage with almost 100% up time. People would think you were mad.

Yes, this game has some balance issues, but they’re nowhere near as bad as the stuff that came up in Guild Wars 1.

Balance became a problem after they introduced new skills and classes, which GW2 has neither done and which you yourself agree they should not do without balancing things first.

The fact is that GW1 WAS balanced early in the game. It was much more balanced in the first year of prophecies than GW2 is now in its first year.

The problem is that they’re GOING to introduce more. NO MMO is going to leave skills untouched forever. So starting here, where it can be balanced is the smart thing to do long term.

In a perfect world people don’t get bored of the same skills. In this world they do. Therefore, for the long term health of the game, starting this way is smarter. As more skills come out, the game becomes deeper.

I’m must saying that the introduction of new skills created imbalance in GW1. It is my opinion that the balance in the game now is way off compared to Prophecies. Actually, I think the balance is way off in general. Not between professions, but between making something other than direct damage the best and only route to winning.

I agree that they will need to add more skills to keep people happy. Doing that responsibly would be appreciated. But, fixing team combat now would be nice first.

What makes you think they’re not fixing it? I just think they’re not fixing it fast enough. It’s the whole patience thing. It takes time for MMOs to shake the kinks out. Time often measured in years, not months.

It isn’t necessarily the trinity, but the trinity was a way to ensure interdependence, since groups had to work together to accomplish something none of them could individually. DPS, healers and tanks all needed each other because they all lacked in things the others were good at. This interdependence is further seen when you add in the need for support (debuff and buff classes) and CC (like the tank ensuring survival).

GW2 is a system built on being independent. You are responsible for keeping yourself alive and doing damage with very little interacting in a group. Most classes only have 1 or 2 abilities that help increase the damage of the group, so there is a little support. Debuffs are not really in this game other than poison, and bosses are immune/resistant to CC. GW2 has a system that is basically two roles, DPS and DPS with some buffs.

Better dungeon design could help, for example the suit in the dredge fractal requires people have someone working well with the switches and the group people positioning the boss. So it is possible to design around the roles by making the roles specific to the encounter. But no matter what happens this is still a game designed on independence, because if you were interdependent you would have to have required roles filled, which they said they don’t want.

But I also want to say the dungeon design also fails to provide fun mechanics and things like phases to keep the fight from being repetitive, but everyone knows GW2 has very poor boss designs.

Ordika.9513:

I always wondered why they didn’t design Warrior banners Samurai style, in that they were placed on your back and the buff traveled with you.

Then the trait line for banners would have 2 5pt level buff to increase range and effectiveness and then a Grandmaster skill to allow you to have more then one on your back at a time.

This would mean that the Warrior now basically carries around a group signet, if they don’t spec Grandmaster they have to decide which to use and when. You could even go so far as to remove signets from Warriors, so that unused banner provide a minor passive buff to the Warrior alone.

This suggestion is fantastic, though I might retool it a bit. Retool the banners to each have one active skill while they are carried on your back – the active appears on your F2-F4 slots.

Edit:

Scratch the f2-f4 thing. It’s stupid. Just have the utility/elite keys place their selective banners and then, once played, replace the skill with an active unique to that banner. When used, the active buff (such as Fury for the Pre/Crit damage banner) will be applied in an area. The blast finisher when banners are manually placed through skill 5 while wielding them could be moved to either when Banners are summoned or, more likely, to the post-placement active skill.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

Nick.6972:

Most of the classes/skills in GW2 are not balanced too, GW1 wasn’t balanced, but at least it offered more diversity, hell, how hard was it to increase the Shadow Form CD to 1 minute as it was back in 2007?

There is such a huge difference in the type of imbalance we’re talking about here. The way Guild Wars 1 was set up, there was just no possible way to balance it. I mean, you think 4 zerker warriors and a mesmer are anything like a perma-sin, or a rank 8 ursan? Totally different level of unbalanced.

Imagine if you told Guild Wars 2 players today that a character could make himself immune to damage permanently. Or that a single player, like an imbagon paragon could mitigate 90% of the parties incoming damage with almost 100% up time. People would think you were mad.

Yes, this game has some balance issues, but they’re nowhere near as bad as the stuff that came up in Guild Wars 1.

Balance became a problem after they introduced new skills and classes, which GW2 has neither done and which you yourself agree they should not do without balancing things first.

The fact is that GW1 WAS balanced early in the game. It was much more balanced in the first year of prophecies than GW2 is now in its first year.

The problem is that they’re GOING to introduce more. NO MMO is going to leave skills untouched forever. So starting here, where it can be balanced is the smart thing to do long term.

In a perfect world people don’t get bored of the same skills. In this world they do. Therefore, for the long term health of the game, starting this way is smarter. As more skills come out, the game becomes deeper.

I’m must saying that the introduction of new skills created imbalance in GW1. It is my opinion that the balance in the game now is way off compared to Prophecies. Actually, I think the balance is way off in general. Not between professions, but between making something other than direct damage the best and only route to winning.

I agree that they will need to add more skills to keep people happy. Doing that responsibly would be appreciated. But, fixing team combat now would be nice first.

What makes you think they’re not fixing it? I just think they’re not fixing it fast enough. It’s the whole patience thing. It takes time for MMOs to shake the kinks out. Time often measured in years, not months.

Sorry, but I don’t really have years of patience for a company that has progressively made its product worse and worse with every expansion or new product, in my opinion.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

Nick.6972:

Most of the classes/skills in GW2 are not balanced too, GW1 wasn’t balanced, but at least it offered more diversity, hell, how hard was it to increase the Shadow Form CD to 1 minute as it was back in 2007?

There is such a huge difference in the type of imbalance we’re talking about here. The way Guild Wars 1 was set up, there was just no possible way to balance it. I mean, you think 4 zerker warriors and a mesmer are anything like a perma-sin, or a rank 8 ursan? Totally different level of unbalanced.

Imagine if you told Guild Wars 2 players today that a character could make himself immune to damage permanently. Or that a single player, like an imbagon paragon could mitigate 90% of the parties incoming damage with almost 100% up time. People would think you were mad.

Yes, this game has some balance issues, but they’re nowhere near as bad as the stuff that came up in Guild Wars 1.

Balance became a problem after they introduced new skills and classes, which GW2 has neither done and which you yourself agree they should not do without balancing things first.

The fact is that GW1 WAS balanced early in the game. It was much more balanced in the first year of prophecies than GW2 is now in its first year.

The problem is that they’re GOING to introduce more. NO MMO is going to leave skills untouched forever. So starting here, where it can be balanced is the smart thing to do long term.

In a perfect world people don’t get bored of the same skills. In this world they do. Therefore, for the long term health of the game, starting this way is smarter. As more skills come out, the game becomes deeper.

I’m must saying that the introduction of new skills created imbalance in GW1. It is my opinion that the balance in the game now is way off compared to Prophecies. Actually, I think the balance is way off in general. Not between professions, but between making something other than direct damage the best and only route to winning.

I agree that they will need to add more skills to keep people happy. Doing that responsibly would be appreciated. But, fixing team combat now would be nice first.

What makes you think they’re not fixing it? I just think they’re not fixing it fast enough. It’s the whole patience thing. It takes time for MMOs to shake the kinks out. Time often measured in years, not months.

Sorry, but I don’t really have years of patience for a company that has progressively made its product worse and worse with every expansion or new product, in my opinion.

Well, I don’t personally think it is worse with every patch. Now if you do, you shouldn’t have patience. I think that’s pretty obvious.

But I think generally the game is going in the right direct (in my opinion, though you are entitled to yours).

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

Nick.6972:

Most of the classes/skills in GW2 are not balanced too, GW1 wasn’t balanced, but at least it offered more diversity, hell, how hard was it to increase the Shadow Form CD to 1 minute as it was back in 2007?

There is such a huge difference in the type of imbalance we’re talking about here. The way Guild Wars 1 was set up, there was just no possible way to balance it. I mean, you think 4 zerker warriors and a mesmer are anything like a perma-sin, or a rank 8 ursan? Totally different level of unbalanced.

Imagine if you told Guild Wars 2 players today that a character could make himself immune to damage permanently. Or that a single player, like an imbagon paragon could mitigate 90% of the parties incoming damage with almost 100% up time. People would think you were mad.

Yes, this game has some balance issues, but they’re nowhere near as bad as the stuff that came up in Guild Wars 1.

Balance became a problem after they introduced new skills and classes, which GW2 has neither done and which you yourself agree they should not do without balancing things first.

The fact is that GW1 WAS balanced early in the game. It was much more balanced in the first year of prophecies than GW2 is now in its first year.

The problem is that they’re GOING to introduce more. NO MMO is going to leave skills untouched forever. So starting here, where it can be balanced is the smart thing to do long term.

In a perfect world people don’t get bored of the same skills. In this world they do. Therefore, for the long term health of the game, starting this way is smarter. As more skills come out, the game becomes deeper.

I’m must saying that the introduction of new skills created imbalance in GW1. It is my opinion that the balance in the game now is way off compared to Prophecies. Actually, I think the balance is way off in general. Not between professions, but between making something other than direct damage the best and only route to winning.

I agree that they will need to add more skills to keep people happy. Doing that responsibly would be appreciated. But, fixing team combat now would be nice first.

What makes you think they’re not fixing it? I just think they’re not fixing it fast enough. It’s the whole patience thing. It takes time for MMOs to shake the kinks out. Time often measured in years, not months.

Sorry, but I don’t really have years of patience for a company that has progressively made its product worse and worse with every expansion or new product, in my opinion.

What? Factions was a huge upgrade to Prophecies. I mean, yeah, the Kaineng part of Cantha sucked, as did the sewers under it, but the mob design was generally fun to fight, the soundtrack was the best in Guild Wars 1, Alliance Battles and Competitive Missions were a fun, casual pvp gimmick, Challenge Missions were an interesting feature, the new elite dungeons were a great addition, the story was better told than that of Prophecies, the new professions were fun, and the Kurzick and Luxon maps were gorgeous.

There was nothing “bad” about Factions as a whole. Nor was there anything wrong with Nightfall’s gameplay – though the maps were most definitely lacking and the Paragon did nothing good for game balance.

To be honest, id take a dps gaurdian over a dps warrior any day. Because they simply bring more to the table.

And if something goes wrong a guardian can pull a group out of it normally. A zerker warrior on the other hand is omg noooo run for your lives.

That and they are weak-sauce in pvp lol

Duke Blackrose.4981:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

Nick.6972:

Most of the classes/skills in GW2 are not balanced too, GW1 wasn’t balanced, but at least it offered more diversity, hell, how hard was it to increase the Shadow Form CD to 1 minute as it was back in 2007?

There is such a huge difference in the type of imbalance we’re talking about here. The way Guild Wars 1 was set up, there was just no possible way to balance it. I mean, you think 4 zerker warriors and a mesmer are anything like a perma-sin, or a rank 8 ursan? Totally different level of unbalanced.

Imagine if you told Guild Wars 2 players today that a character could make himself immune to damage permanently. Or that a single player, like an imbagon paragon could mitigate 90% of the parties incoming damage with almost 100% up time. People would think you were mad.

Yes, this game has some balance issues, but they’re nowhere near as bad as the stuff that came up in Guild Wars 1.

Balance became a problem after they introduced new skills and classes, which GW2 has neither done and which you yourself agree they should not do without balancing things first.

The fact is that GW1 WAS balanced early in the game. It was much more balanced in the first year of prophecies than GW2 is now in its first year.

The problem is that they’re GOING to introduce more. NO MMO is going to leave skills untouched forever. So starting here, where it can be balanced is the smart thing to do long term.

In a perfect world people don’t get bored of the same skills. In this world they do. Therefore, for the long term health of the game, starting this way is smarter. As more skills come out, the game becomes deeper.

I’m must saying that the introduction of new skills created imbalance in GW1. It is my opinion that the balance in the game now is way off compared to Prophecies. Actually, I think the balance is way off in general. Not between professions, but between making something other than direct damage the best and only route to winning.

I agree that they will need to add more skills to keep people happy. Doing that responsibly would be appreciated. But, fixing team combat now would be nice first.

What makes you think they’re not fixing it? I just think they’re not fixing it fast enough. It’s the whole patience thing. It takes time for MMOs to shake the kinks out. Time often measured in years, not months.

Sorry, but I don’t really have years of patience for a company that has progressively made its product worse and worse with every expansion or new product, in my opinion.

What? Factions was a huge upgrade to Prophecies. I mean, yeah, the Kaineng part of Cantha sucked, as did the sewers under it, but the mob design was generally fun to fight, the soundtrack was the best in Guild Wars 1, Alliance Battles and Competitive Missions were a fun, casual pvp gimmick, Challenge Missions were an interesting feature, the new elite dungeons were a great addition, the story was better told than that of Prophecies, the new professions were fun, and the Kurzick and Luxon maps were gorgeous.

There was nothing “bad” about Factions as a whole. Nor was there anything wrong with Nightfall’s gameplay – though the maps were most definitely lacking and the Paragon did nothing good for game balance.

In your opinion. In my world, they progressively gave us more OP and unbalanced builds to account for in PvP.

See, our perspectives are just different. I agree that there were GREAT things about Factions and Nightfall, but there were things that started the ball rolling to me quitting the game.

It’s just an opinion, nothing personal.

What they need is instead of giving bosses random aoe attacks, they should give them really cool patterned aoe a la touhou style. These attacks should be used in no particular order, but have distinguishable power-ups. I think this would make boss encounters epic

Shootsfoot.9276:

Acelerion.6820:

We have no trinity but still have bucket-o-hp mobs designed for a trinity system. Re-tooling AI would go a long way.

Agreed.

This would be a decent opportunity for tweaking. While we do have a soft trinity, (damage, control, support) it would be interesting to see all those mobs gathered up by the control and support guys in the group, while the damage group does their part in taking them down.

As it stands now the current strategery is “just run, don’t fight.”

Not going to happen as long as ANet insist on balancing everything around SPVP. This because strong control end up with people permaCCed in SPVP, and strong support result in bunker builds (bordering on SPVP heresy).

Also, running (mobility) is supposed to be a feature in this game. /s

Quick Mouse.7635:

What they need is instead of giving bosses random aoe attacks, they should give them really cool patterned aoe a la touhou style. These attacks should be used in no particular order, but have distinguishable power-ups. I think this would make boss encounters epic

3D bullet hell?! Not without dropping the health pool of the bosses drastically and removing target lock fully. Because without that people will just go in, switch to whatever ranged weapon they have, lock on to the boss, and let autofire plink away at the boss while they navigate the red circles of hell.

purpleskies.3274:

It isn’t necessarily the trinity, but the trinity was a way to ensure interdependence, since groups had to work together to accomplish something none of them could individually. DPS, healers and tanks all needed each other because they all lacked in things the others were good at. This interdependence is further seen when you add in the need for support (debuff and buff classes) and CC (like the tank ensuring survival).

GW2 is a system built on being independent. You are responsible for keeping yourself alive and doing damage with very little interacting in a group. Most classes only have 1 or 2 abilities that help increase the damage of the group, so there is a little support. Debuffs are not really in this game other than poison, and bosses are immune/resistant to CC. GW2 has a system that is basically two roles, DPS and DPS with some buffs.

Better dungeon design could help, for example the suit in the dredge fractal requires people have someone working well with the switches and the group people positioning the boss. So it is possible to design around the roles by making the roles specific to the encounter. But no matter what happens this is still a game designed on independence, because if you were interdependent you would have to have required roles filled, which they said they don’t want.

But I also want to say the dungeon design also fails to provide fun mechanics and things like phases to keep the fight from being repetitive, but everyone knows GW2 has very poor boss designs.

Meh, they could get around the whole roles thing if they allowed us to save trait and gear setups in some way. But that would also require that traiting for CC or support/heal could actually have a impact, something it does not at all do right now to avoid bunkers and permaCC in SPVP (yet mobs can easily permaCC us in PVE, just observe the dislike for Orr and periscopes because of this).

Vayne.8563:

What makes you think they’re not fixing it? I just think they’re not fixing it fast enough. It’s the whole patience thing. It takes time for MMOs to shake the kinks out. Time often measured in years, not months.

The days are gone when mmos can take that time.

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

What makes you think they’re not fixing it? I just think they’re not fixing it fast enough. It’s the whole patience thing. It takes time for MMOs to shake the kinks out. Time often measured in years, not months.

The days are gone when mmos can take that time.

Actually, more MMOs are probably damaged by doing things too quickly than doing them too slowly. Rift annoyed the hell out of me by changing things, getting them wrong and changing them again two days later. That’s not any more fun than waiting, believe me.

Mirta.5029:

normally most bosses do have unique mechanics. I’ve seen so many zergs wipe in Arah, CoE and I’m pretty sure that they would even wipe in AC. They refuse to learn how bosses work, refuse to help the team and just continue to smack away. Most of them get carried trough high end dungeons.
Dungeons do encourage learning and different playstyles. It’s just that a lot of warriors like to play them all as if it was CoF.

I would argue unique mechanics isn’t enough, once you know the mechanic you end up with static encounters again. The encounter design needs to be more dynamic. Someone above mentioned having bosses with a few different abilities which don’t trigger in a pattern but have an identifiable power up, thats along the lines of where they need to go.

The problem is also exacerbated by anets insistence on nerfing abilities which provide support for other players, this leads to few builds being used. That recent Q&A referred to is extremely disappointing in respect of this thread.

Dungeon bosses need to be more like subject alpha in CoE, they need to have mechanics that knowing about and knowing how to avoid damage or cure it (as in conditions etc) will win you the fight and not just mindless facerolling.

There needs to be more of this kind of thing, bosses need to do more projectile style attacks (like in Arah path 1), they need to have AoEs that require positioning and timing (Alpha’s ice spike and rock coronas, they’re not about dodging all the time, kids) and have more unique forms of conditions that players should deal with.

Maybe if bosses used stuns on certain players for others to remove, did more knockbacks to counter with stabilities and had more unique mechanics like evolved destroyer in CoE (and other bosses) then we’d see less mindless zerg and more organized play.

It’s no surprise that CoE and Arah are my favourite dungeons to do.

Knowledge based mechanics can be a pain to balance. You need them to be discoverable, yet threatening. If they are one but not the other they become boring or annoying. Boring when they are easy to discover but not threatening. annoying when they are threatening but hard to discover (hello dodge-or-die).

One can quite quickly end up with a dungeon that requires research, rehearsals and long quizzes before being allowed into a group. Something that is highly discouraging for a new player.

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

What makes you think they’re not fixing it? I just think they’re not fixing it fast enough. It’s the whole patience thing. It takes time for MMOs to shake the kinks out. Time often measured in years, not months.

The days are gone when mmos can take that time.

Actually, more MMOs are probably damaged by doing things too quickly than doing them too slowly. Rift annoyed the hell out of me by changing things, getting them wrong and changing them again two days later. That’s not any more fun than waiting, believe me.

I agree about both GW2 and Rift, but in the modern age it seems patience is a thing of the past.

From what I see with regards to the 4 warriors is that it is because they are the EASIEST class to fill ALL 3 roles of damage dealer, support healing and support cond removal at once, thus why people want them.

Why do I say this?

1 – Damage dealing, no brainer here with their spinning sword attacks which hit everything nearby for great damage.

2 – Support healing is done from “shouts” which have a great range to them. My warrior has little to NO healing stat and in level 80 areas heals 2k-ish hp per shout. He has 3 shouts which all heal himself and nearby allies for 2k-ish each. No messy aoe circles that your friends need to stand in where lets face it can NOT be done to great effect in dungeons because you are having to dodge red circles all the time. 4 warriors with a possible of 3 healing shouts with their main healing skills is just too much support healing/survivabilty to pass up for other classes. Especially when you add in the fact these shouts also add might etc other bonuses.

So unlike Ele, Guardians, Engi’s and Rangers (sorry have not played my Thief, Mes or Necro enough yet to cover those classes) who all use circle aoes to heal themseleves and allies the warrior gets it the EASIEST to support heal – thus the demand for them.

3 – Support cond removal – same as support healing as it is smply one of the shouts that removes a cond and if traited right also gives the healing.

Summary – Warriors do ALL roles the easiest thus why they are in demand most. Other classes have it harder to support heal/remove conds due to aoe circles and wasting that extra split second to change attunements/kits for examples as ele’s and engis.

It’s obvious which classes were made first (Warrior/Guardian) and all other classes after and given less thought with regards to ease of use or balance for some areas like dungeons etc.

Build versatility is what holds gw2 back, for me.

Here are some characters in games I think defy the trinity model as established by World of Warcraft, but still have a distinct role in their team:

• Dominator (City of Heroes) – CoH had a mechanic similar to Defiance that gave bosses a special resistance to CC, called Magnitude. A creature would not be affected by CC until covered by X Magnitude worth of effects. What Dominators had, was the ability to pop a special mode that doubled the magnitude of all their control powers, allowing them to lock down dangerous bosses.

• Villainous Epic Archetype (City of Heroes) – A “jack of all trades”, sort of what like Engineer advocates like to call themselves. However, it actually works here, because they provide just enough of their buffs, debuffs, and DPS to be appreciable in every aspect, without so much that it becomes redundant to take more than one along (like it might with too many Guardians).

• Empathy/Sonic Defender (City of Heroes) – If you think Empathy is a healbot spec, you haven’t played the real CoH. Empathy is all about buffing your team’s damage and insulating them from attrition, while Sonic debuffs damage resistance. The synergy is through the roof. A good thing to understand about CoH as well is that many buffs provided boosts to your “Defence” stat, making them more of a GW1 Prot Monk than a true healer.

• Bard (Everquest) – Their method of providing buffs through “songs” became all the more interesting when you “twisted” them. Twisting meant to keep more than one up at once, which was made tricky by their short duration. This made them a class that rewarded situational adaptation and high APM.

GW2 dungeons are too chaotic for beginners. Everyone goes into Ascalon Catacombs and gets facerolled because of the lack of a “target of target” feature, a lack of AI cast bars, and the visual cues are worthless, because you will die too fast with a 1-shot hit. It’s very unforgiving for new players. There are no entry-level dungeons for them.

Dungeons for leveling up and new players should gradually scale up to more challenging dungeons at max level.

Shootsfoot.9276:

Ryth.6518:

SHM.7628:

The lack of trinity in this game is not the provblem It’s arguably one of its few strongest points.

There’s a host of other problems that detract from the game. You are more or less locked into a build by traits and your two weapons. Same is true of armor. The whole thing is very limiting

Secondly, The game herds you into a zerg style of play that rewards you for tagging large groups enemies. Almost everything else falls to the wayside. Support roles are not effective and they actually punish the player. You will lose drops, and XP. You realize very quickly that it pays to do mild damage to a lot of mobs than to synergize with you team mates.

Last but not least. They have all these great specs and traits that go basically unused. Why? Because one, resetting is a pain and costly. Two, you are going to be solo a lot in this game, so damage/defense has to be priority. (at the cost of everything else)

That is correct..the term/issue is ‘limited’.

I re-subbed to WoW while still doing GW2 to see MoP and how it was.

I still prefer GW2 world and graphics, but overall WoW still has the better fight and PvP mechanics and overall ‘customization’

What bugs me about GW2 is that the lack of combat ‘style’ on your toon. Having 5 attacks and then a few more extra things to do honestly isn’t enough diversity. Going back, I definitely liked the new talent trees and picking my ‘style’ for my Warrior. On top of that, having 15 or so buttons to use during combat is a lot better then 5-7.

I have an engineer main in GW2 and it is absolutely BORING doing fights. It’s honestly monotonous. It makes me not want to play the game.

I think GW2 needs to up the number of buttons from 10 to 15 at least. I’d like to see them add some trinket/effect buttons and also maybe 2 more unique abilities that you can choose to use in combat. I don’t like how my weapon determines for example that I can charge. Charge should be a baseline ability of a Warrior.

I love the armors, but honestly they need a little more to them…a little more ‘style’.

The fighting animations need improved. I feel like characters ‘skate’ over combat and please for the love of god fix the Warrior whirlwind..looks really stupid.

At the same time, with all those spells for, say, paladins in WoW, your optimized rotation was still 6 or 7 spells. Sure there were big CD spells and such, but it was still only 6 or 7 main spells. And they never ever changed, even if you changed talents/weapons.

So I guess what I would like to see in GW2 is a mix of what we have now and a bit more of an active-feeling combat system. I love how spells change with weapon swaps. But I would like to see something like 15 choices of spells per weapon, of which you can choose 5.

I would also like to see the first attack not be chained. As a guardian with sword/shield for instance, my main attack/dps is my auto-attack..three spells which cycle automatically. All the rest of the time I’m waiting on cooldowns so I can eventually use them while I dodge.

There seems to be a lot more downtime in GW fighting than in WoW. I’m not saying I want 30 spells/attacks available at once, but I would like the current system to be a little more active feeling and with a bit more flexibility per weapon.

Probably never will happen, but a man can dream.

Well, you are comparing optimal rotation for optimal damage/dps and that is correct.

What I’m also talking about are those situational abilities that we don’t have in here except the 7,8,9,10 key.

For example, my optimal rotation on warrior is charge in to generate rage, then do a Mortal Strike to put a bleed effect on and then rotate between Colossus Smash, Slam and Overpower and repeating those. along with the first 2. So around 5-6 depending on what extra I throw in like thunderclap or slam, etc.

What isn’t in that rotation are all the situational things..like heroic leap (getting out of range), shouts, pummel to silence, banners, enrage, disarm, and about 5 other things I can do depending on the fight, opponent, etc

Guild Wars compared to WoW is night and day in abilities. But what I’d like to see is somewhere in between. Some way to customize your character more via traits, etc and just ore things to do in combat.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

What makes you think they’re not fixing it? I just think they’re not fixing it fast enough. It’s the whole patience thing. It takes time for MMOs to shake the kinks out. Time often measured in years, not months.

The days are gone when mmos can take that time.

Actually, more MMOs are probably damaged by doing things too quickly than doing them too slowly. Rift annoyed the hell out of me by changing things, getting them wrong and changing them again two days later. That’s not any more fun than waiting, believe me.

I agree about both GW2 and Rift, but in the modern age it seems patience is a thing of the past.

I think there are a percentage of people who play these games who are impatient, and a percentage of people who’ve been down this road before. For example, I was less patient with other MMOs, until I started realizing that all MMOs are basically the same at launch. Once I realized that, I became more patient, because being less patient, I was only hurting myself. It’s not like the entire industry will change because I’m impatient.

I think the patient people don’t post as much. Of course, casual players and late comers don’t run out of content as fast and they don’t need to be as patient. Plenty of people playing who haven’t beaten all the dungeons yet, haven’t done fractals yet, don’t have 100% world completion yet, etc. Even I haven’t done all the jumping puzzles yet, and I like them.

In the end, there will be a group of people who think everything should have been fixed pre-release, all the features like LFG tool should have been there at launch, there should be enough content to keep them busy for years…and those people will complain loudly. Or people who, rightly, might not like the change in an MMOs direction, because they feel they’ve bought a different game.

The question is are we listening to a vocal minority or a majority. Time will tell.

Quick Mouse.7635:

What they need is instead of giving bosses random aoe attacks, they should give them really cool patterned aoe a la touhou style. These attacks should be used in no particular order, but have distinguishable power-ups. I think this would make boss encounters epic

Something like the Frog King boss we got

digiowl.9620:

people will just go in, switch to whatever ranged weapon they have, lock on to the boss, and let autofire plink away at the boss while they navigate the red circles of hell.

Hmm, and it would be bad because ?

Isslair.4908:

Sovta.4719:

There is holy trinity in this game (for dungeons): Warrior, Guardian, Mesmer.

It’s actually just guardian+mesmer. Warrior is simply a dps-guys, and can be switched to any other profession. It’s just currently warriors are the best at this job.
Guardian+mesmer oth… Well, a lot of dungeon content is made easier by these two and it’s like anet actually designs encounters around having a guardian in a party.

Not to mention that these classes are also very strong in pvp, unlike the one-trick pony war.

But it’s a great DPS guy, full DPS for farming and balanced warrior for anything else, still great DPS.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Games that include the trinity promote bland, formulaic play. This guy is going to hold aggro. That guy is going to heal everyone. Those guys are going to use the same rotation over and over again to bring health bars down. If something new or unexpected happens, it is probably because someone did not do their job properly.

Yogg-Saron says hi.
Shade of Aran, Magtheridon, Hydross, Lady Vashj, Kaelthas, Alar and the other nine thousand bosses who weren’t simple tank-n-spanks would also like a moment to laugh at you. In fact the only bosses who were simple tank-n-spanks such as patchwerk were unique due to that fact and used as dps benchmarks.

Trinities allow for interesting combat mechanics.
I have not seen anything noteworthy about gw2 boss mechanics.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

The problem does not lie in the system, but rather in other factors of the game’s design. There is little adaptation because the current dungeon design doesn’t require nor particularly encourage it.
… As a result, instead of a tank, healer, and dps, we now have 4 dps Warriors, all of which are more or less self-sufficient, and a support, such as a Guardian or Mesmer.

While there is something to your argument, it has one major flaw: this does not happen in “dungeons.” It happens in a few paths of certain dungeons that lend themselves to this play style. Path 1 of the Citadel of Flame is extemely popular because of this, but not every path of every dungeon is done this way.

What you are talking about is the same thing that happened in GW1: a certain set up is difficult to screw up and highly effective for a few lucrative runs. It becomes “meta.” Places where it does not work are dubbed “impossible” or “poorly deisgned.” In GW1 I remember breezing through Shards of Orr in hard mode in under 40 minutes with no consumables and never wiping. Maybe 2 people fell the whole way through. Yet this was an “impossible without cons” run (at that time it was, before the Bone Dragon Staff craze). It was not impossible. It was quite easy if you understood the mechanics. The easy, low or moderate skill one size fits all formulas did not work.

I go onto gw2lfg and <20% paths make up >50% of group requests. A large portion of them only want “warriors or mesmers in full zerker gear, ping gear.” If those are what you like, then, cool, have fun with them. For you, however, I suggest you look at the other 80%.

MMOs will always follow the 80/20 rule (80% of the time people are doing 20% of the level-appropriate content). It will happen whenever there is a confluence of high reward and quick path with easy build.

Paulytnz.7619:

It’s obvious which classes were made first (Warrior/Guardian) and all other classes after and given less thought with regards to ease of use or balance for some areas like dungeons etc.

No, elementalist came first followed by warrior, ranger, necromancer and then guardian. Guardian was in the last half.

I wonder how different the game would’ve been if armors and weapons and trinkets didn’t give extra stats (prec, pow, vit etc.) and just provided base def/attack, then have builds be entirely reliant on traits, weapon and utility skills..

nexxe.7081:

GW2 dungeons are too chaotic for beginners. Everyone goes into Ascalon Catacombs and gets facerolled because of the lack of a “target of target” feature, a lack of AI cast bars, and the visual cues are worthless, because you will die too fast with a 1-shot hit. It’s very unforgiving for new players. There are no entry-level dungeons for them.

Dungeons for leveling up and new players should gradually scale up to more challenging dungeons at max level.

I think this is a good summation.

Personally I think the biggest problem with the dungeons, is that the game is designed for not Trinity, but the dungeons still are designed for it. I have only ever run AC story twice, but my take away is this:

Trash should be no harder then world Veterans (well maybe a little harder, but certainly not the champion level they are at), and the mechanics for dealing with them easier to grasp without a guide. An example would be the Rangers in AC which are a giant pain. But little did I know until I read a guide, is that if everyone engages them point blank, they don’t use traps negating their strongest weapon.

I also hate that all boss encounter seem to revolve around two people throwing a boulder back and forth through the boss…this is boring and means 2 people have to basically be boulder throwers, which of course means the boss takes longer to kill.

Personally I would like to see stuff more in line like the open world dungons, lots of normal and veteran level trash, with Champions scattered throughout and puzzles to progress. Flame Legion Tombs and the Spider Crypt in Gendaran Fields are examples of fun dungeons that make sense (design wise) in this game.

Simple ways they could make battle encounters (PvE) more interesting in general (to cater for different types of build) are:

1. Give certain enemies unique buffs and weaknesses.
For example:
- critical hits are 50% less effect (this could encourage players to build into condition rather than pure dmg/crit).
- conditions expire twice as fast or remove conditions ever X secs(deter conditioners from attacking those targets and pursue and different target).
- enemies that are susceptible to melee weapons
- enemies that are susceptible to magic/range
- make enemies move slow, but unleash massive dmg when in range (promote evasive play and thoughtful positioning… CC and ranged attacks will be useful here).
- make quick enemies that switch targets often applying conditions but little damage.

Mix and match a few of these together for one type of enemy. Things will get interesting really quick.

If you are creative, battle will go from dull to fun. Atm, is just Health health health and how fast you can drop it. BORING

penatbater.4710:

Ryth.6518:

That is correct..the term/issue is ‘limited’.

I re-subbed to WoW while still doing GW2 to see MoP and how it was.

I still prefer GW2 world and graphics, but overall WoW still has the better fight and PvP mechanics and overall ‘customization’

What bugs me about GW2 is that the lack of combat ‘style’ on your toon. Having 5 attacks and then a few more extra things to do honestly isn’t enough diversity. Going back, I definitely liked the new talent trees and picking my ‘style’ for my Warrior. On top of that, having 15 or so buttons to use during combat is a lot better then 5-7.

I have an engineer main in GW2 and it is absolutely BORING doing fights. It’s honestly monotonous. It makes me not want to play the game.

I think GW2 needs to up the number of buttons from 10 to 15 at least. I’d like to see them add some trinket/effect buttons and also maybe 2 more unique abilities that you can choose to use in combat. I don’t like how my weapon determines for example that I can charge. Charge should be a baseline ability of a Warrior.

I love the armors, but honestly they need a little more to them…a little more ‘style’.

The fighting animations need improved. I feel like characters ‘skate’ over combat and please for the love of god fix the Warrior whirlwind..looks really stupid.

No.. just, no. I’ve seen some screenshots of wow mods and its ridiculous as to the amount of buttons and keys you have on screen. It may be a synch for vet players but it easily daunts new players. I tried to play wow, and the normal hotkey bars were enough for me. I find the notion that you NEED mods to play a game more effectively ridiculous.

You don’t need a single mod to play WoW, so your premise is a complete falsehood. Most of those buttons in those screenshots you use as examples are just convenience buttons for things such as mounts, potions, food, bandages, etc. Very few of them were used in actual fighting. My Paladin used maybe 8 or 9 spells during a fight. And even that is stretching it.

This game has so much potential, I hope Anet will use this as their advantage in future patches/expansions.

I agree what most people say here. I don’t understand why barely any boss has some unique ability (for example something like Lyssa that you can’t look at her). Giving bosses their own boons/conditions will make them much more fun and maybe more challenging.
For example, what about a boss that gives you a condition that stacks up over time and deal damage every x sec (more stack, more dmg), and the only way to remove it is with dodging, but it doesn’t remove the condi completely just transfers it to an other group member. This might encourage to bring tanky/healer-like characters so they can “eat” up the damage dealt this way. I realize it’s not the best idea (as there have to be some limit so it wouldn’t turn into a dps race to kill the boss b4 the condi becomes too dangerous), and I came up with it in like 1 mins, but I know most of you would have some great ideas about how to make encounters more challenging & fun with unique mechanics.

My other concern is with the lack of skills. Don’t get me wrong, I love the idea of only having 10 skills out at time (actually more with weap swap/special abilities) , it could make people actually think what they want to bring to the next encounter (assuming it’s not just a “big healthpool – one shot” boss…).
What I really hate is the fix skills for weapons. They should be like utility skills, you have let’s say 10 skills for each weapon set and you could swap between them. I know balance is a very important thing, but personally I think even if they manage to get proper balance with the very few skills this game has, if they want to create new skills AFTER they balanced the existing ones, it would just destroy the balance anyway…

Reading this gave me an idea to help with prof. diversity in groups. What if buffs/debuffs from combos were better than self-buffing. So the might I put on myself Isn’t as powerful as the might put on the group when I blast into a fire field. If done right, it would encourage bringing more than just warriors/mesmer, and probably encourage the use of some weapons that aren’t played often.

The HMS GW2, the only ship with nobody at the helm, no one unfurling the sails and nobody wanting to load the guns, everybody just wanting to fire…
No Trinity!!! Yup, just 4 Warriors and a support fotm. How is that working out for you by the way? Me? I’m sooooo glad I was press-ganged… NOT!

You hit the nail on the head, the combat system is fantastic and can be very deep – we just need more content that takes advantage of it.

The lack of trinity isn’t a problem, it is just one possible solution to the ‘problem’ of mindless DPS play. Your suggestion of improved mechanics and combo systems would also work. Some of us also do like the trinity system, personally healing is my favourite.

Jemmi.6058:

The lack of trinity isn’t a problem, it is just one possible solution to the ‘problem’ of mindless DPS play. Your suggestion of improved mechanics and combo systems would also work. Some of us also do like the trinity system, personally healing is my favourite.

The trinity has its place, but it shouldn’t have a place in every MMORPG. Guild Wars 2 should keep the non-trinity system that it promised. The system that makes it unique and will hopefully come to define a few other quality MMOs in the future.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Jemmi.6058:

The lack of trinity isn’t a problem, it is just one possible solution to the ‘problem’ of mindless DPS play. Your suggestion of improved mechanics and combo systems would also work. Some of us also do like the trinity system, personally healing is my favourite.

The trinity has its place, but it shouldn’t have a place in every MMORPG. Guild Wars 2 should keep the non-trinity system that it promised. The system that makes it unique and will hopefully come to define a few other quality MMOs in the future.

I agree, sadly, that GW2 should keep it’s place as a non-trinity system. That is what it was advertised as, so it would definitely be a bad idea to go back on that.

That said, healer has always been my favourite class, and in any other RPG game, it’s the class I choose. For now, I am having loads of fun with my Mesmer

I have a lot of fun playing suboptimally , tbh the most optimal path is rarely fun in any game. When you have a random group it makes the content more difficult, more requiring of the nuances of the combat and classes, changing traits for differing encounters to pass them.

tbh the game is designed for casual play and it ends up being most fun when you play casually. So I guess that’s a win for the design :P

And hardmode is already kinda there in the form of full magicfind gear, as it reduces your damage and survivability. I’m surprised mf isn’t power/cond/mf though, since then the one gear would be equally bad for everyone.

Maybe making the magicfind gear look really cool to offset your self nerfing and show off your hard mode skills… hehe maybe in a perfect world

I was under the impression that gw2 had its own trinity: the damage, support and control. But what sets it apart is that you dont’ NEED the actual trinity to complete content.

Jemmi.6058:

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Jemmi.6058:

The lack of trinity isn’t a problem, it is just one possible solution to the ‘problem’ of mindless DPS play. Your suggestion of improved mechanics and combo systems would also work. Some of us also do like the trinity system, personally healing is my favourite.

The trinity has its place, but it shouldn’t have a place in every MMORPG. Guild Wars 2 should keep the non-trinity system that it promised. The system that makes it unique and will hopefully come to define a few other quality MMOs in the future.

I agree, sadly, that GW2 should keep it’s place as a non-trinity system. That is what it was advertised as, so it would definitely be a bad idea to go back on that.

That said, healer has always been my favourite class, and in any other RPG game, it’s the class I choose. For now, I am having loads of fun with my Mesmer

“Healers” still exist. They are just no longer dedicated to just healing. Off the top of my head, I can think of:

Elementalist – heals his party significantly and removes conditions when swapping to water attunement. Has multiple area heals.

Guardian – heals allies on dodge. Heals with Staff. Heals with Mace. Can full heal everyone with one of the skills on his Tome of Courage. And more.

Ranger – Healing Spring is incredible – heals on cast, applies regen, and removes conditions, as well as constituting a water field for allies to blast finish for more heals. Moa pets pack some significant party healing. Rangers arguably benefit more from Healing Power than any other profession.

Engineer – Bomb engineers can spam ~300 health AoE heals while dealing pretty good damage to nearby foes.

Basically, your healer still exists. You just need to utilize more creativity and fill other roles in addition to that party healing. Just because you no longer have groups waiting for half an hour to find you doesn’t mean that you’re no longer of any use.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Jemmi.6058:

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Jemmi.6058:

The lack of trinity isn’t a problem, it is just one possible solution to the ‘problem’ of mindless DPS play. Your suggestion of improved mechanics and combo systems would also work. Some of us also do like the trinity system, personally healing is my favourite.

The trinity has its place, but it shouldn’t have a place in every MMORPG. Guild Wars 2 should keep the non-trinity system that it promised. The system that makes it unique and will hopefully come to define a few other quality MMOs in the future.

I agree, sadly, that GW2 should keep it’s place as a non-trinity system. That is what it was advertised as, so it would definitely be a bad idea to go back on that.

That said, healer has always been my favourite class, and in any other RPG game, it’s the class I choose. For now, I am having loads of fun with my Mesmer

“Healers” still exist. They are just no longer dedicated to just healing. Off the top of my head, I can think of:

Elementalist – heals his party significantly and removes conditions when swapping to water attunement. Has multiple area heals.

Guardian – heals allies on dodge. Heals with Staff. Heals with Mace. Can full heal everyone with one of the skills on his Tome of Courage. And more.

Ranger – Healing Spring is incredible – heals on cast, applies regen, and removes conditions, as well as constituting a water field for allies to blast finish for more heals. Moa pets pack some significant party healing. Rangers arguably benefit more from Healing Power than any other profession.

Engineer – Bomb engineers can spam ~300 health AoE heals while dealing pretty good damage to nearby foes.

Basically, your healer still exists. You just need to utilize more creativity and fill other roles in addition to that party healing. Just because you no longer have groups waiting for half an hour to find you doesn’t mean that you’re no longer of any use.

I know about healing skills, but it is a far cry from the same thing as a healer class.

I also did not say the only reason I like healing class is because people want me in their group (in fact i mostly did all content with henchmen on My monk in GW1). I just prefer the rapid response and calculated tasks of healing. In GW2 the cooldowns are waay to long in order for you to specialize in this task. I do heal my parties and I know how to use heals.

To say that these are anything similar to a healing class is like saying you are pretty much a formula 1 racecar driver, because you drive to work everyday.

Tiresias.6473:

Case in point: a lot of people want the crafting system to be more profitable, but I personally like the fact that crafting is extremely expensive. This gives it a significant barrier to entry that ensures that the market won’t be flooded by top-level crafters who all have the exact same recipes and can crank out top-end crafted gear cheaply. In return for the expense and difficulty involved in the crafting system, you can actually level a character through it. I feel that crafting should actually be MORE difficult, to the point where crafting could be a dedicated profession like it is in Ultima Online.

As someone who has always been drawn to the crafting side of games, GW2 has been a major let-down. We do have market flooded by top-level crafters who all have the same recipes. The only reason rare items are expensive is because they can be salvaged for Ectoplasm. Exotics are expensive not because of any challenge to crafting itself, but because of diminishing returns/loot-drop rates. Prices are upside down as well on things. The cooking profession has a number of items that sell for less than the cost of the materials required (look at the cost of a yam vs. items made with yams. Same for chili peppers and vanilla).
I put a lot of time into crafting in various games, and with the exception of GW2, there was always a need for someone who did high-end crafting. It was part of your “resume” when applying to guilds. Even if you weren’t that great with dungeons, you were desirable because you had put in the time to be able to craft things that other guild members needed to have crafted.
Meanwhile, in GW2, no-one needs a 400. Because just about everyone is either already at 400, or will be in a couple hours of work. Crafted items are sold pretty much at material cost.
I would love for crafting to be a real part of this game, and not just an occasional easy-daily or extra XP boost for when you want to level a character. I highly doubt that we’ll ever see it go beyond that though. I don’t think Arenanet is capable of doing something like that, and even if they could, I don’t think the care enough to do so.

Yeah the crafting is a bit of a joke (coming from EVE where you can craft as an entire playstyle :p)

It’s not totally worthless though, I still ask my guild members for crafted stuff when I already have the look of an item but don’t want to farm a dungeon for the stats :p

Neural.1824:

Meanwhile, in GW2, no-one needs a 400. Because just about everyone is either already at 400, or will be in a couple hours of work. Crafted items are sold pretty much at material cost.
I would love for crafting to be a real part of this game, and not just an occasional easy-daily or extra XP boost for when you want to level a character. I highly doubt that we’ll ever see it go beyond that though. I don’t think Arenanet is capable of doing something like that, and even if they could, I don’t think the care enough to do so.

the problem is easy to fix though. When I thought about it… You know how jewelcrafters can have recipes drop in TA and Arah for rings that are bloody expensive? Why not to add special dungeon skins for weapons and armor that are not buyable with tokens, but rather you would have to finish all paths of that dungeon and buy the recipe with tokens, however that said recipe for a weapon piece or an armor piece would cost more tokens than an exotic armor piece and would also cost a certain amount of tokens to make? That way if the skin is awesome enough we have a system for making sellable awesome skins whose recipes are hard to get, therefore not every crafter would go trough the trouble of getting them, meaning that the crafter that does get it could sell it for a high price?

Mirta.5029:

Neural.1824:

Meanwhile, in GW2, no-one needs a 400. Because just about everyone is either already at 400, or will be in a couple hours of work. Crafted items are sold pretty much at material cost.
I would love for crafting to be a real part of this game, and not just an occasional easy-daily or extra XP boost for when you want to level a character. I highly doubt that we’ll ever see it go beyond that though. I don’t think Arenanet is capable of doing something like that, and even if they could, I don’t think the care enough to do so.

the problem is easy to fix though. When I thought about it… You know how jewelcrafters can have recipes drop in TA and Arah for rings that are bloody expensive? Why not to add special dungeon skins for weapons and armor that are not buyable with tokens, but rather you would have to finish all paths of that dungeon and buy the recipe with tokens, however that said recipe for a weapon piece or an armor piece would cost more tokens than an exotic armor piece and would also cost a certain amount of tokens to make? That way if the skin is awesome enough we have a system for making sellable awesome skins whose recipes are hard to get, therefore not every crafter would go trough the trouble of getting them, meaning that the crafter that does get it could sell it for a high price?

I suppose we sort of have that with the MF recipes.
Arenanet should make some of the MF recipes require 400 in a set of trades. For instance, the Mystic Staff. Require Artificing 400, Huntsman 400, and Weaponsmithing 400 (3 weapon related trades).

Agree on combofields, but Im unsure about dungeons, because by now I think builds are just bad, there are only a few actually beneficiall builds and if you dont run one of those you are left out, and some are just obvious bad for certain classes.

With this much traiting I would expect more obvious and varied builds, specially with also options to different weapons. But certain classes can switch a lot, aquatic cant switch at all and I dont see the whole controle thing as interesting in PVE.

Might as well give the option between controle, support, crit damage or condition damage and give all the traits and weapons that come with the build.