Guild Wars 2

The only thing Feb/March patches are going to do is allow those that enjoy the game to enjoy it more and the others to finally quit and save us all the kittening.

Make or break what? The game has no subscription.

The game is broken and no patch will fix that. Its boring, unrewarding and repetitive. Unless they change that, this game is dead to me. And yes, i come here in the hopes they do change it eventually.

No subscription wont mean it can not be broken. If there are no palyers its just a waste of money for the company.
Since no palyers wont buy items. -_- Aka, there wont be profit.
Besides, none will buy the expansions. And so on….Dont play dumb…i hate ppl that just refuse to say things out laund and fanboy.
Fanboys destroy games more then non fans.-_-

Vermillion Hawk.9037:

Omen.1879:

It’s sad, GW1 rocked from the start, GW2 does not even come close.

It’s funny. I see a lot people saying this, but to me I recall the first year of Guild Wars 1 being filled with maybe as much negativity as this game. That game went on to have 6 more years of success.

What’s funny is that this is completely correct, but the sentiment behind it is wrong.

GW1 did indeed take years to hit its stride, but it was also made in 2005, back when a person’s choices for MMOs were still fairly limited, and F2P actually stood for “piece of garbage”.

Nowadays there’s a brand new AAA MMO released every year. Oftentimes two or three. And there’s countless F2P games with much more varying degrees of quality, some of which are fantastic and put other high-end titles to shame. There is a much larger selection, and players can’t truly dedicate themselves to several MMOs at once.

GW2 doesn’t have years to hit its own stride. It has roughly until the release of the next big MMO, and if it hasn’t hit the mark by then….yeah, the game will probably still survive. But it will never be a major contender in the MMO market again.

Jan, Feb, and March are GW2’s chance to make it or break it. And I, along with many players on this forum, will be watching closely to see how GW2’s staff defines “strengthening the core game”. And if we don’t agree….yeah, it’s possible we’ll be gone. I love this game, and I want to see it get better, but if the staff keep going in their current direction, eventually I may be obligated to leave this game simply out of principle. I’ve left MMOs that I really loved playing before because I disliked the way their staff ran things, and at present I can’t say I fully approve of the way ANet has treated its players of late.

Quit applying P2P logics to GW2, none apply.
GW1 was up for 8 years until GW2 which will be up for X years until GW3 which will be up for X years until GW4 etc.
Think of it like the TES franchise, it’s not like there will be no more TES games after Skyrim, it will continue forever.

I think Anet did a mistake in making comparisons with traditional MMOs too much; while that was to prove the point that they’ll be different, it actually led people to compare GW2 with P2P MMOs like this.

EQ and EQ2 forums sound just like this one….even now. Peeps saying that if SOE doesn’t do this or that right now the game will be over. Both games have been going for over 10 yrs. I played EQ2 for nearly 4 yrs. and the forums sounded just like this one.

I’ll be here for several years at least.

I’ve been a massive fan of the Guild Wars series since the first game and have loved playing GW2 for the most part. However I have been very disappointed at the lack of a proper ‘endgame’, which is something I thought I’d never say. I’ve only got the one level 80 and a couple of other chars at around 30 and I still plan to level these up. The trouble is with this is that I have seen all the areas before from map completion and as diverse as the classes and personal stories are, I still feel like its a bit of a chore to get to max level (not huge fan of WvW so that’s not really an option for me). And this is the problem for me, this is all I can really do on GW2 at this moment in time – I have my fave dungeon armour set on my main with the dyes I want so really the only thing left are either Fractals or going for a Legendary tbh, neither of which really jump out at me. Empty zones is a problem as people have noted, although inevitable I guess, hope they can bring people back to these though. Anyway I’ll definitely still be playing but I do think it is a sort of ‘make or break’ point for GW2 especially now other MMO’s (e.g. The Secret World) are becoming buy once, play forever.

Red Falcon.8257:

Quit applying P2P logics to GW2, none apply.
GW1 was up for 8 years until GW2 which will be up for X years until GW3 which will be up for X years until GW4 etc.

Plenty of comparisons can and should be made.

The most important one is this: regardless of any given MMO’s choice of payment model, a new MMO in today’s world faces unprecedented competition from a massive number of MMOs already well established that would be happy to take those players off your hands.

An MMO in today’s market doesn’t have years to “prove itself”, it has a few months. GW2 has already had 4, and it’s already getting pretty bad word of mouth nowadays compared to when it released. If they haven’t nailed it by March, that’ll be the 7 month mark….much too late for the game to become a real contender ever again.

Or, to put it more clearly: yes, the game will survive. But it won’t be contending with WoW, or TERA, or Rift, or other big games like that. It may not even be a multi-million player game. It’ll end up fighting for scraps with the smaller games if it can’t turn itself around. And if it gets that bad, you can forget about GW3. NCSoft won’t fund it, they’re not doing so great as things stand even with GW2’s impressive numbers.

Think of it like the TES franchise, it’s not like there will be no more TES games after Skyrim, it will continue forever.

Clearly you weren’t alive back when Ultima 9 was released, a game which had major hype behind it….a game so terrible that it completely destroyed the franchise as a single-player property, and significantly weakened it elsewhere as well (outright killing Ultima Online 2, and weakening development on the original Ultima Online). Even now, a full 14 years later, EA still doesn’t have the courage to bring the single player games back, instead resorting to simple mobile games and downright tacky-looking F2P MMOs with the franchise label slapped on.

No major franchise is so well-insulated that it cannot die. Especially not Guild Wars.

I really hope they focus on WvW in the next big update. It’s the one thing that makes GW2 stand out from the other MMO’s. There’s nothing particularly bad about PvE in GW2 but it’s just not that good, and can’t be improved on without seriously altering the game design. Build variety is lacking (fewer skills in general + no secondary profession compared to GW1), Bosses have high damage and hp without much utility and dynamic events don’t require any co-ordination to beat.

I’ll still be here.
I would like to see more open world emphasis in future content and a reason for 80s to revisit down-levelled content. I didn’t buy this game for a lobby and dungeon crawl, I could play Countless other MMOs for that experience. I bought this game for the combat system, massive open world, WvW endless endgame and a restricted vertical progression.

All that being said, I think I would have enjoyed the game more if the level cap was 20 and every zone from Gendarren Fields and above was endgame. I think by having 80 levels and only 2 level 80 zones has made much of the mid level content seem like a waste. Yes you can revisit it as a side kicked 80 but there’s little point in doing so, the anti-farm code and lack of 80 rewards means the only reason to return to the lower zones is for map completion.

The only thing that will make or break this game for me will be if they introduce a big power creep (like 20% or more) or change the combat mechnics (like swg combat upgrade or AoCs itemisation upgrade).

Considering the make or (more specifically) break time happened on nov 15 this wont be a make or break but rather a fix or fail time.

To OP. For you it could be make or break, I’m not feeling it.

There is a limit players can take obviously, i personally feel mine has come to its end with issues and bugs, i have been telling myself jan-feb is my crunch time.

If the open world stays as bad as it is with loot, magic find silliness and little use to doing it, bar leveling alts i’ll move on…i do not expect others to do so i just feel the game has taken far too long to be repaired in multiple Aspects and gone in poor directions (Ascended, level caps, Legendary stats raising etc) for me to continue..

Obviously if these things are remedied i’ll play to my hearts content..

for me i think it may well be make or break. if the issues with loot drops, MF, and at the very least DR … i don’t think i will have it in me to continue playing this game with the fervor that i do now. gets really sickening and depressing day in and day out getting the shaft at every turn no matter how hard you try or wish it weren’t so.

no content, just means i stop logging on. the only thing worth logging in for is a fractal run or two. and now that even is starting to be a drag. not sure what happened with that island of crabs. but since the event i have not set foot there again.

critickitten.1498:

Red Falcon.8257:

Quit applying P2P logics to GW2, none apply.
GW1 was up for 8 years until GW2 which will be up for X years until GW3 which will be up for X years until GW4 etc.

Plenty of comparisons can and should be made.

The most important one is this: regardless of any given MMO’s choice of payment model, a new MMO in today’s world faces unprecedented competition from a massive number of MMOs already well established that would be happy to take those players off your hands.

An MMO in today’s market doesn’t have years to “prove itself”, it has a few months. GW2 has already had 4, and it’s already getting pretty bad word of mouth nowadays compared to when it released. If they haven’t nailed it by March, that’ll be the 7 month mark….much too late for the game to become a real contender ever again.

Or, to put it more clearly: yes, the game will survive. But it won’t be contending with WoW, or TERA, or Rift, or other big games like that. It may not even be a multi-million player game. It’ll end up fighting for scraps with the smaller games if it can’t turn itself around. And if it gets that bad, you can forget about GW3. NCSoft won’t fund it, they’re not doing so great as things stand even with GW2’s impressive numbers.

Clearly you weren’t alive back when Ultima 9 was released, a game which had major hype behind it….a game so terrible that it completely destroyed the franchise as a single-player property, and significantly weakened it elsewhere as well (outright killing Ultima Online 2, and weakening development on the original Ultima Online). Even now, a full 14 years later, EA still doesn’t have the courage to bring the single player games back, instead resorting to simple mobile games and downright tacky-looking F2P MMOs with the franchise label slapped on.

No major franchise is so well-insulated that it cannot die. Especially not Guild Wars.

Except that GW2 was a success and Anet made a ton of money out of it – a lot more than they made with vanilla GW1.
You can wonder if GW3 will be a success or not, but GW2 already accomplished that goal.

Also, ultima 9 is a very bad example as Ultima is still a successful franchise to today.
Origin studio changing has nothing to do with the success of the franchise itself – Anet could completely change the game or even sell it to another company but that wouldn’t make GW1 and 2 any less of successful games.

Make or break time for me, maybe.

Depends on a couple of games l’m waiting for, depends how good (or not) they are.

Depends on what Anet have planned for GW2, and the direction they intend to take it in.

Depends on lots of small (in game) things if l stay or not.

The make it or break it was a while back and unfortunate it went to the break it point.
This is from a player population standpoint.
The design decisions and implementation and management have been on par with Bioware and tor. Player populations continue to exit at a significant rate.

What I cant answer is the revenue stream income. If the remaining players are supporting the game fine then there isnt an issue. However if as the players leave they are the big spenders on the gem store we will see a greater push for gems.

This has already started but not to a significant degree yet. I do expect within the next few months a free to play announcement and a full gem cash shop since the population is gone and new players are needed.

Red Falcon.8257:

critickitten.1498:

Red Falcon.8257:

Quit applying P2P logics to GW2, none apply.
GW1 was up for 8 years until GW2 which will be up for X years until GW3 which will be up for X years until GW4 etc.

Plenty of comparisons can and should be made.

The most important one is this: regardless of any given MMO’s choice of payment model, a new MMO in today’s world faces unprecedented competition from a massive number of MMOs already well established that would be happy to take those players off your hands.

An MMO in today’s market doesn’t have years to “prove itself”, it has a few months. GW2 has already had 4, and it’s already getting pretty bad word of mouth nowadays compared to when it released. If they haven’t nailed it by March, that’ll be the 7 month mark….much too late for the game to become a real contender ever again.

Or, to put it more clearly: yes, the game will survive. But it won’t be contending with WoW, or TERA, or Rift, or other big games like that. It may not even be a multi-million player game. It’ll end up fighting for scraps with the smaller games if it can’t turn itself around. And if it gets that bad, you can forget about GW3. NCSoft won’t fund it, they’re not doing so great as things stand even with GW2’s impressive numbers.

Clearly you weren’t alive back when Ultima 9 was released, a game which had major hype behind it….a game so terrible that it completely destroyed the franchise as a single-player property, and significantly weakened it elsewhere as well (outright killing Ultima Online 2, and weakening development on the original Ultima Online). Even now, a full 14 years later, EA still doesn’t have the courage to bring the single player games back, instead resorting to simple mobile games and downright tacky-looking F2P MMOs with the franchise label slapped on.

No major franchise is so well-insulated that it cannot die. Especially not Guild Wars.

Except that GW2 was a success and Anet made a ton of money out of it – a lot more than they made with vanilla GW1.
You can wonder if GW3 will be a success or not, but GW2 already accomplished that goal.

Also, ultima 9 is a very bad example as Ultima is still a successful franchise to today.
Origin studio changing has nothing to do with the success of the franchise itself – Anet could completely change the game or even sell it to another company but that wouldn’t make GW1 and 2 any less of successful games.

Um i’m just gooing to put this out there, as your wrong. Gw2 hasn’t sold nearly as much as other games on the market. Tor had 2 Mil copies pre ordered to GW2 and has sold more to date. Also Gw1 has made and has ACTUALLY sold more than Gw2, you saying gw2 has sold more than those 2 games is clearly you either trolling ot you rapid fanboy mode because they haven’t. Quick pro tip, A single Gw1 expansion has sold more than Gw2 has to date.

Gw2 Sales http://www.vgchartz.com/game/37350/guild-wars-2/
Tor Sales http://www.vgchartz.com/game/31584/star-wars-the-old-republic/

Though they are more estimates because it’s VG charts and it is never 100% correct but still you get the idea.

Elthurien.8356:

I’ll still be here.
I didn’t buy this game for a lobby and dungeon crawl, I could play Countless other MMOs for that experience.

I think you nailed it with this sentence. I bought the game, primarily because of the “Nothing is ever outdated” notion. Even though no one has ever said those words, through all the interviews, through all the webcasta and videos, I got interested in guild wars 2 because I thought, at max level, I would be just running around the world, exploring all zones, and being properly rewarded for it. A 30% reward is hardly worth it. Extra XP to get that much closer to another skill point is not worth it. The little amount of kharma, and the 1.5 silver I might get from completing a low level event is not worth it.

You’re right, it is a lobby game. And I bought this game under the impression that it would not be a lobby game.

Hell, I was some what disappointed after the first BWE when I realized I couldnt go anywhere in game, and be up leveled. None of you remember this, but there was a time in GW2 development, not too long before the first BWE, where it was stated that in open world pve content, you would be upleveled. They took this out last minute before the first bwe, because it removed the “fear factor” of fighting higher level mobs. Fine, OK, I dealt with it. But that was the first straw in a long line of straws where they walked the tight rope between what they said, what they mean, and what they are actually going to do.

So while I love this game and I cannot think of many games that compete with it, I hope they revitalize the current open world of Tyria and give me, on my level 80 characters, a good reason to head to zones like Timberlane falls or Iron Marches.

Otherwise, like someone said, out of principle I might put the game down for a while, a long while. I did that with WoW once they announced pandas and never went back.

Kakeru.2873:

Red Falcon.8257:

critickitten.1498:

Red Falcon.8257:

Quit applying P2P logics to GW2, none apply.
GW1 was up for 8 years until GW2 which will be up for X years until GW3 which will be up for X years until GW4 etc.

Plenty of comparisons can and should be made.

The most important one is this: regardless of any given MMO’s choice of payment model, a new MMO in today’s world faces unprecedented competition from a massive number of MMOs already well established that would be happy to take those players off your hands.

An MMO in today’s market doesn’t have years to “prove itself”, it has a few months. GW2 has already had 4, and it’s already getting pretty bad word of mouth nowadays compared to when it released. If they haven’t nailed it by March, that’ll be the 7 month mark….much too late for the game to become a real contender ever again.

Or, to put it more clearly: yes, the game will survive. But it won’t be contending with WoW, or TERA, or Rift, or other big games like that. It may not even be a multi-million player game. It’ll end up fighting for scraps with the smaller games if it can’t turn itself around. And if it gets that bad, you can forget about GW3. NCSoft won’t fund it, they’re not doing so great as things stand even with GW2’s impressive numbers.

Clearly you weren’t alive back when Ultima 9 was released, a game which had major hype behind it….a game so terrible that it completely destroyed the franchise as a single-player property, and significantly weakened it elsewhere as well (outright killing Ultima Online 2, and weakening development on the original Ultima Online). Even now, a full 14 years later, EA still doesn’t have the courage to bring the single player games back, instead resorting to simple mobile games and downright tacky-looking F2P MMOs with the franchise label slapped on.

No major franchise is so well-insulated that it cannot die. Especially not Guild Wars.

Except that GW2 was a success and Anet made a ton of money out of it – a lot more than they made with vanilla GW1.
You can wonder if GW3 will be a success or not, but GW2 already accomplished that goal.

Also, ultima 9 is a very bad example as Ultima is still a successful franchise to today.
Origin studio changing has nothing to do with the success of the franchise itself – Anet could completely change the game or even sell it to another company but that wouldn’t make GW1 and 2 any less of successful games.

Um i’m just gooing to put this out there, as your wrong. Gw2 hasn’t sold nearly as much as other games on the market. Tor had 2 Mil copies pre ordered to GW2 and has sold more to date. Also Gw1 has made and has ACTUALLY sold more than Gw2, you saying gw2 has sold more than those 2 games is clearly you either trolling ot you rapid fanboy mode because they haven’t. Quick pro tip, A single Gw1 expansion has sold more than Gw2 has to date.

Gw2 Sales http://www.vgchartz.com/game/37350/guild-wars-2/
Tor Sales http://www.vgchartz.com/game/31584/star-wars-the-old-republic/

Though they are more estimates because it’s VG charts and it is never 100% correct but still you get the idea.

Dude wtf kind of website is that? Completely inaccurate..completely and I wouldn’t even go by it as a “get the idea” sort of thing. Click on WoW Mists of Pandaria. This site says MoP sold less than GW2? No lol..just no.

This site probably doesnt factor in digital sales. Id imagine that most of MoP sales were digital. Id imagine a lot of GW2 sales were digital.

So one CAN say that if you factor in the GW2 digital sales, and assuming the 1.65 mil number on this site is box sales, it is conceivable that GW2 sold more copies than a SWTOR or GW1..who knows. Theres no way for us to tell one way or the other. None. No whack-job one off website that is in no way affiliated with Arenanet or NCSoft is going to give you anywhere accurate numbers. The only people with that information is NCSoft and Arenanet, and I highly doubt they would divulge this to this website. The only time these sorts of numbers come out to public view by OBLIGATION is quarterly performance meetings.

cesmode.4257:

Gorwe.9672:

Those two patches are indeed make or break for me.

If they stick to their GW1 ideas, I’ll stay and buy expansions, etc.
If they abandon their GW1 ideas, I’ll just pack my things and leave.

Hey, by the time second Patch rolls out, I’ll have played for 400 hours(or so). It’s definitely not a bad Dollar spent/time spent ratio. On the contrary, it is splendid!

So ANet-“Nothing ventured, nothing gained” eh?

Why would them abandoning GW1 ideas make or break the game for you? This is not Gw1. And they said that the way Gw1 was structured influenced their decisions, and that the way GW2 is structured now they have more freedom to go about and do many different things. It is also why the game was released with 80 levels, not 20. I would not expect many GW1 things in an entirely different game. You’ll be disappointe.d

I don’t understand your reasoning. Why make a Guild Wars game… if it’s not Guild Wars? It has nothing to do with levels. It has to do with metagame, with consistency, with core elements of the game that function on a horizontal scale and not vertically, removing things that enable elitists to discriminate against other players. There are many things that Guild Wars did right that Guild Wars 2 blatantly does wrong, like guilds/alliances, PvP, guild halls, dungeons and itemization.

I am with all of the Guild Wars players who have left and simply do not like Guild Wars 2 because of its huge departure. It is a monumental achievement when it comes to art and sound, but the lore is garbage, the gameplay is boring and there is hardly a metagame.

cesmode.4257:

Elthurien.8356:

I’ll still be here.
I didn’t buy this game for a lobby and dungeon crawl, I could play Countless other MMOs for that experience.

I think you nailed it with this sentence. I bought the game, primarily because of the “Nothing is ever outdated” notion. Even though no one has ever said those words, through all the interviews, through all the webcasta and videos, I got interested in guild wars 2 because I thought, at max level, I would be just running around the world, exploring all zones, and being properly rewarded for it. A 30% reward is hardly worth it. Extra XP to get that much closer to another skill point is not worth it. The little amount of kharma, and the 1.5 silver I might get from completing a low level event is not worth it.

You’re right, it is a lobby game. And I bought this game under the impression that it would not be a lobby game.

Hell, I was some what disappointed after the first BWE when I realized I couldnt go anywhere in game, and be up leveled. None of you remember this, but there was a time in GW2 development, not too long before the first BWE, where it was stated that in open world pve content, you would be upleveled. They took this out last minute before the first bwe, because it removed the “fear factor” of fighting higher level mobs. Fine, OK, I dealt with it. But that was the first straw in a long line of straws where they walked the tight rope between what they said, what they mean, and what they are actually going to do.

So while I love this game and I cannot think of many games that compete with it, I hope they revitalize the current open world of Tyria and give me, on my level 80 characters, a good reason to head to zones like Timberlane falls or Iron Marches.

Otherwise, like someone said, out of principle I might put the game down for a while, a long while. I did that with WoW once they announced pandas and never went back.

Solution: Remove levels. There is absolutely 0 need for levels in Guild Wars 2. This is extremely important and I don’t understand why they didn’t just remove levels. The amount of time it would’ve saved them is ridiculous.

ok, fanboy raging aside….

I enjoyed the ride I got a for €50 no doubt about that. But it will be make or break for me.
I already was on a break I just started logging in recently. And I am looking for a new server with an actual active population. But I am still sceptical about it. With the dead areas, dead dungeons (SE), loot problems, trading post culture ( it sometimes feels as if I am playing a stock broker simulation) and lobby culture I am tilting toward the side if just leaving. But I will see how it works out maybe its just the server I am on, maybe if I server switch it get better.

But honestly it reall feels like the population is declining and personally I would say I give GW2 a maximum of 6 months till the point where only the hardcore players are left and where pve will be mostly dead. I am not saying this will definitely happen but it does look bleak in my opinion.

Now don’t get me wrong I don’t hate the game. I enjoyed the ride but right now there just so many issues.

In conclusion I just want to say the jan-march patches will be a definite make or break for me, but I do not have high hopes for it with the current issues and state of the game.

I totally agree with critickitten.1498
Good insight.
And you cant compare eq2 to this. You should check out who and why plays it. I did…bu was extremely bored after 2 month. Even if the game itself had amazing ideas, lie crafting and housing…there rest was trash or half complete…even after many years. Almost the same as Gw2 currently.

This is EXACTLY what the update is.. Make or break, if it doesnt look like the game is heading in the right direction, it will be getting uninstalled and one of the new mmo’s will be getting my attention.

We already have reasons to visit almost every map (world bosses, quests, altoholics leveling alts, cultural armor, dungeons, etc..) they need to start listening to people who played the game for a long time

Bismuth.3165:

We already have reasons to visit almost every map (world bosses, quests, altoholics leveling alts, cultural armor, dungeons, etc..) they need to start listening to people who played the game for a long time

Holy Necronomicon, Batman!

This post is why I am creating a Necro… alt, not thread.

Yeah, Bismuth didn’t necro the thread (I don’t think) someone else did first.

Interesting to read the thread though, in view of where the game is now. Was it made or broken by the Jan/Feb patches? Or were people just pontificating with a lot of hot air?

gurugeorge.9857:

Interesting to read the thread though, in view of where the game is now. Was it made or broken by the Jan/Feb patches? Or were people just pontificating with a lot of hot air?

I predicted that I would still be here 6 months ago…

…I’m still here (I took a month off for vacation but I’m still here)

KLAATU BARADA NICTO!

Shufflepants.9785:

Bismuth.3165:

We already have reasons to visit almost every map (world bosses, quests, altoholics leveling alts, cultural armor, dungeons, etc..) they need to start listening to people who played the game for a long time

Holy Necronomicon, Batman!

I need to start checking thread times before posting… I guess -_-

Still loving it, not feeling any need to think about such things in such a black and white fashion.

Bismuth.3165:

Shufflepants.9785:

Bismuth.3165:

We already have reasons to visit almost every map (world bosses, quests, altoholics leveling alts, cultural armor, dungeons, etc..) they need to start listening to people who played the game for a long time

Holy Necronomicon, Batman!

I need to start checking thread times before posting… I guess -_-

I thought the “Jan/Feb” was a dead giveaway this topic was old.

Kaz.7482:

Bismuth.3165:

Shufflepants.9785:

Bismuth.3165:

We already have reasons to visit almost every map (world bosses, quests, altoholics leveling alts, cultural armor, dungeons, etc..) they need to start listening to people who played the game for a long time

Holy Necronomicon, Batman!

I need to start checking thread times before posting… I guess -_-

I thought the “Jan/Feb” was a dead giveaway this topic was old.

Lmfao, maybe he thought it was next year :P

Kaz.7482:

Bismuth.3165:

Shufflepants.9785:

Bismuth.3165:

We already have reasons to visit almost every map (world bosses, quests, altoholics leveling alts, cultural armor, dungeons, etc..) they need to start listening to people who played the game for a long time

Holy Necronomicon, Batman!

I need to start checking thread times before posting… I guess -_-

I thought the “Jan/Feb” was a dead giveaway this topic was old.

2014