All of these ‘difficult’ newer Jumping Puzzles are created by Josh Foreman. If interested, he speaks about them, and why they are ‘difficult’ in the latest Guild Chat (found on YouTube or Twitch).
Well, to start with, that second “M” is for “multiplayer”. The adventures are all solo-only content.
They make acceptable diversions, but they shouldn’t be required content.
They aren’t required. Neither are jumping puzzles.
They are optional content, you can choose to do them or not.
They are not optional. You MUST do them if you want to advance your character as much as you can.
How an “optional” jumping puzzle killing the game?
By not being optional.
I’ve yet to see a jumping puzzle implemented into a story step. and no, jumping over kitten isn’t a jumping puzzle
If you want to go the route of “that content isn’t required”, even the Story isn’t “required”. However there are certain types of content that are fundamental to most MMOs: not only Story, but exploration, and Achievements. In GW2, you can start many achievements only to find out that in order to complete them you need to complete, or at least make some progress in a JP(s). This is what I object to. JP should have their own Achievements that are not connected to other content so they are truly optional.
Of which I only know 2: mursaat tokens and LWS3:5: firestone shards.
Then there might be some association in the legendary weapons collection, like Dierdre’s Steps, but then again, it’s a legendary collection, you’re supposed to show a proof of skill in all aspects of the game
What does skill playing the rest of GW2 have to do with skill in JP?
it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol
How an “optional” jumping puzzle killing the game?
By not being optional.
I’ve yet to see a jumping puzzle implemented into a story step. and no, jumping over kitten isn’t a jumping puzzle
If you want to go the route of “that content isn’t required”, even the Story isn’t “required”. However there are certain types of content that are fundamental to most MMOs: not only Story, but exploration, and Achievements. In GW2, you can start many achievements only to find out that in order to complete them you need to complete, or at least make some progress in a JP(s). This is what I object to. JP should have their own Achievements that are not connected to other content so they are truly optional.
Of which I only know 2: mursaat tokens and LWS3:5: firestone shards.
Then there might be some association in the legendary weapons collection, like Dierdre’s Steps, but then again, it’s a legendary collection, you’re supposed to show a proof of skill in all aspects of the game
What does skill playing the rest of GW2 have to do with skill in JP?
jumping puzzles are an aspect of the game, fractals are an aspect of the game, dungeons are an aspect of the game, world events are an aspect of the game
I’m not gonna write down the entire list
How an “optional” jumping puzzle killing the game?
By not being optional.
I’ve yet to see a jumping puzzle implemented into a story step. and no, jumping over kitten isn’t a jumping puzzle
If you want to go the route of “that content isn’t required”, even the Story isn’t “required”. However there are certain types of content that are fundamental to most MMOs: not only Story, but exploration, and Achievements. In GW2, you can start many achievements only to find out that in order to complete them you need to complete, or at least make some progress in a JP(s). This is what I object to. JP should have their own Achievements that are not connected to other content so they are truly optional.
Of which I only know 2: mursaat tokens and LWS3:5: firestone shards.
Then there might be some association in the legendary weapons collection, like Dierdre’s Steps, but then again, it’s a legendary collection, you’re supposed to show a proof of skill in all aspects of the game
What does skill playing the rest of GW2 have to do with skill in JP?
jumping puzzles are an aspect of the game, fractals are an aspect of the game, dungeons are an aspect of the game, world events are an aspect of the game
I’m not gonna write down the entire list
I understand that your opinion is that all of the “mini-games” in GW2 are integral parts of the game and there is no issue requiring them for content completion. My position is that an RPG is about the world and the stories within it. Mini-games are essentially different games inserted into the RPG. I’m not really sure why Anet felt the need to insert mini-games into GW2. Its like they were concerned that their world and its story weren’t enough. I would have preferred that they use their time and effort to improve the world and stories than on mini-games. So many of the stories are lacking or have bugs. And we hear about content that they planned but couldn’t finish. Also the amount of lore that was never finished or ever mentioned again. These things contribute to the world and stories. The money Anet spent on people to do JP and other mini-games could have been spent on people to improve and increase the world and the stories.
it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol
it’s called a JUMPING PUZZLE. let that sink in for a moment. You’re suppose to put effort in it. If the path or location was obvious straight forward, then there is nothing to puzzle about ..or jump for that matter. Hmm… must say that most core tyria jp’s are fairly poor designed in that regard.. Also perhaps we should just call them puzzles from now on. As they don’t always involve jumping specifically.
For me, the current jumping puzzles are not fun. But this is just me speaking. And I realize that.
Although I can’t think of any platformer that was as bad as guild wars 2 are at explaining its mechanics and telegraphing what parts of the environment are actual parts of the platform riddle. I don’t mind difficult content. I just want it to be explained and fair.
I don’t mind the complexity/puzzley part of jumping puzzles. Or the technical jumping parts.
What I do mind is the shoddy way terrain exists in most of them, and how the newer designs seem to revel in “huehuehue I made a bad JP and it’s sooo~ hard” rather than actually be interesting or entertaining.
Drydock Scratch is pretty amazing overall, except the parts where there’s no clear indication of where to go and the seemingly random trial-and-error section at the end. Awesome in size and scope though, appreciate it. Meanwhile, Chalice of Tears seems to exploit bad lighting and pixel-sized landing pads that don’t match the visuals of the terrain as a measure of false difficulty. It’s not humane design.
And speaking of, most of the jumping puzzles don’t have good return points when there’s a mistake. “Oops I fell to death, time to walk back from the waypoint and start over.” Yeah, that means you too, Not So Secret. For that point alone, allowing gliding should be universal, just to avoid the cheap slip-deaths that are common to jumping puzzles.
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No you want to do them to attain some frivolous rewards, making them completely optional.
Mastery points are frivolous?
Considering how many excess ones we have, yes chasing the ONE located in a JP when you know you hate JP’s is not only frivolous but an exercise in insanity.
You’d think if you hate platforming, you’d i don’t know here NOT do that part and chase the literally hundreds of other alternatives.
I don’t mind the complexity/puzzley part of jumping puzzles. Or the technical jumping parts.
. . .
Drydock Scratch is pretty amazing overall, except the parts where there’s no clear indication of where to go and the seemingly random trial-and-error section at the end. Awesome in size and scope though, appreciate it. Meanwhile, Chalice of Tears seems to exploit bad lighting and pixel-sized landing pads that don’t match the visuals of the terrain as a measure of false difficulty. It’s not humane design.
I agree with this. I really enjoyed Drydock Scratch. They day it came out, I spent around 2 hours making my way through it, figuring it out for myself, and I had a good time doing it. The end where you’re basically stuck doing a big game of Trial and Error wasn’t my favorite part, but it wasn’t that bad. Chalice of Tears (and, to a slightly lesser extent, Searing Ascent) was not fun to work through because of how it relies on landing on the exact right pixel (instead of the normal jumping precision required) to succeed. It makes for a far more frustrating JP experience than all of the others, in my opinion.
I like the challenging JP’s. They are fun and nobody forces you to do them.
Also not all of the new JP’s are like that. Lake Doric had a very humane one for example.
As already said: these are made from Josh Foreman. The guy behind Mad King’s Clocktower, SaB and Chalise of Tears…this guy doesn’t do easy. And I like that.
Also having an explorer like element makes them different and stand out, as long as there are little clues (like in the skeletons in the most recent one) and you aren’t running completely blind.
While I myself am terribad at jumping puzzles, and yes the new ones are near impossible for me to do, I see nothing wrong with having varying difficulties available to the puzzles.
If I can’t do one, or become frustrated with it, I can do an easier one. Just because I don’t like the harder ones doesn’t mean that others feel the same way as I do.
I like that this game seems to try to cater to all types of players when they can. Just my opinion though.
The SW JP may have been a bit too extreme, which was kinda fun and interesting the first time I did it (spent a whole night in there), but after which I was pretty sold on the fact I never want to do it again.
The newer ones, specifically Draconis Mons and Ember bay are just right though imho. With a bit of practice and memorisation they are repeatable and challenging each time, it offers the difficult experience that an end game JP should.
I do agree with OP. Now I haven’t played much at all but something is different with the old JPs and the new ones. I have completed all old JPs and I found them entertaining. The new JPs for some reason I almost haven’t even started trying to do. It’s like, nah… So much frustration, I play for fun.
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There’s nothing wrong with niche content in this game, except for the fact that ANet too often makes niche content matter towards things like meta-achievements or collections. Niche content rewards (because there have to be rewards or no one bothers after the first time or three) should not be part of reward structures for overall play. They should be intrinsic to the niche content.
Exactly. If it were just a matter of a chest at the end of a JP I would be fine with that. I could continue to ignore JPs and the people that liked them could continue with them, but that is not the case. Often you need to do some central Tyria JPs to get map completion. Even vistas, which should be easy, are usually a low level JP.
It is already bad enough that they tie mastery points to the things. A chest. More than that and it is no longer ‘some people like them, some people do not’.
It is already bad enough that they tie mastery points to the things. A chest. More than that and it is no longer ‘some people like them, some people do not’.
For me that reads like: “I don’t like the content so noone should get decent rewards.”
If you don’t like it. Fine. Arguing with mastery points gets old. There are more than enough mastery points you can get. Removing the ones from the JP will give you nothing. You just take away from other players.
You may complain about things like the tokens in the ember bay JP. But don’t argue about things that are easily replaced because they are redundant. Mastery points are already redundant. There are more than you need and they keep coming.
I completed all the jumping puzzles, thus I am not sated. I need one that will ruin my life. Until then I shall torture my guild mates with my guild hall jumping puzzles. No arbitrary touching of my content.
It is already bad enough that they tie mastery points to the things. A chest. More than that and it is no longer ‘some people like them, some people do not’.
For me that reads like: “I don’t like the content so noone should get decent rewards.”
If you don’t like it. Fine. Arguing with mastery points gets old. There are more than enough mastery points you can get. Removing the ones from the JP will give you nothing. You just take away from other players.
You may complain about things like the tokens in the ember bay JP. But don’t argue about things that are easily replaced because they are redundant. Mastery points are already redundant. There are more than you need and they keep coming.
As I said if you do the extra content (the JP in this case) you are more than welcome to a chest. Fill it with exotics for all I care. Just do not lock content you pretty much HAVE to do for many things (vistas, map completion, etc) behind a JP.
As to mastery points, no to your view on them, just no. How would you feel if EVERY mastery point was locked behind different content you hated? Yes, there are a few MPs above what you need to level out everything but it does not take much content you do not like (adventures, JPs, whatever) to suddenly mean it is impossible to get enough MPs. I am so-so about that, I prioritized the masteries rather than feel I had to do all of them, but do not like the precedent of tying optional content to what is de facto required content.
No you want to do them to attain some frivolous rewards, making them completely optional.
Mastery points are frivolous?
Considering how many excess ones we have, yes chasing the ONE located in a JP when you know you hate JP’s is not only frivolous but an exercise in insanity.
You’d think if you hate platforming, you’d i don’t know here NOT do that part and chase the literally hundreds of other alternatives.
But the rest are hidden behind in game games (mini games) so you have to do JP or Mini Games which really shouldn’t be part of the Mastery System in my opinion. This is forcing you to do one or both of these content types.
I go with the group that says give JP specific Achievements or Mini Game specific Achievements, even chests with awesome loot. Just don’t make them needed for Mastery’s that are tied to the flow of the general game and stories.
Only reason they get more ridiculous is because people just mesmer portal them, doesn’t help that within what, an hour, Dulfy has a full guide up that everyone turns to, Anet even advertised one of the guides on fb if I remember correctly.
it wouldn’t be as big of an issue if they threw in varying length and difficulties instead of the recent ones that on your first run blind you could be spending more time in the puzzle than the rest of the location, and hoping that you hit the checkpoints and in the right order and that it didn’t glitch.
Tying achievements to certain JP’s has become a near game ender for me.
They should add flavor and challenge those who want to try them, like raids, fractals, and dungeons, not be mandatory to finish a general “map quest.”
There are achievements for every game mode you just mentioned. Also, there are no points of interest, vistas, hero challenges, or waypoints at the end of jump puzzles. Map completion can be done without finishing any jump puzzle.
The new living season maps may seem like jump puzzles by design, but the actual jump puzzles on those maps are not required for completion of the map and rewards.
Also, there are no points of interest, vistas, hero challenges, or waypoints at the end of jump puzzles.
Wall Breach Blitz and Tribulation Rift says hello. They’re not the hardest JPs in the game, but they are full jumping puzzles, and have things for map completion (a vista each, and WBB has a hero challenge) locked behind them.
Also, there are no points of interest, vistas, hero challenges, or waypoints at the end of jump puzzles. Map completion can be done without finishing any jump puzzle.
Better look again, because offhand i can think of at least 3 locations in core maps where it isn’t true. And a few more that, while not in/beyond official JPs, still require some jp-like skills to reach.
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RPGs have included puzzles for as long as the genre has existed. Originally they were of the, figure it out, intellectual variety rather than measures of coordination, but they have been there all along.
I am not fond of JPs, but i dont see them as out of place for this game or the MmORPG genre.
No you want to do them to attain some frivolous rewards, making them completely optional.
Mastery points are frivolous?
Considering how many excess ones we have, yes chasing the ONE located in a JP when you know you hate JP’s is not only frivolous but an exercise in insanity.
You’d think if you hate platforming, you’d i don’t know here NOT do that part and chase the literally hundreds of other alternatives.
But the rest are hidden behind in game games (mini games) so you have to do JP or Mini Games which really shouldn’t be part of the Mastery System in my opinion. This is forcing you to do one or both of these content types.
I go with the group that says give JP specific Achievements or Mini Game specific Achievements, even chests with awesome loot. Just don’t make them needed for Mastery’s that are tied to the flow of the general game and stories.
You yet again do not have too. You are literally choosing to frustrate yourself.
You can get enough masteries without ever touching a JP. Heck by now im pretty sure you can get enough without ever going above silver in adventures.
According to le wiki
There’s a total of 217 available points for HoT, and it only requires 137 to max out. That’s 70 OPTIONAL masteries. 30 of which are in Adventures…..
The new JPs by Josh are much more ‘puzzle’ than the old ones, which were mostly just ‘jumping’.
Not saying I’m too fond of the idea of trial and error on samey looking terrain without a clear indication where to go. I did like the SAB Tribulation Mode that he also created, because at least there I had a general idea of where the path could be.
But the actual jumping bits in those JPs usually aren’t that bad and if you look at a guide on youtube and the likes they just take a bit. No need to remove them. Also gives skilled Mesmers a way to earn some coin.
In Draconis mons I had a pretty good idea of where to go to be fair. I looked up found some green plants then some blue shrooms and more green stuff. I didn’t even notice the skeletons until you couldn’t really avoid seeing them. And I skipped the whole part next to the crystal and came by in from the side as I merely wanted to get as high as I could. Totally found the puzzle per chance.
In Chalice of tears it is definitely harder as there is not even a hint, though usually it is the higher spike which you think you cant make it on and just keep climbing, once out you find some protruding rocks which are just too obvious and from there the last glide is a bit of a guess, but not too crazy with all the checkpoints in between.
But that was just my experience.
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Ah, yeah I guess I didn’t even consider those jump puzzles because they require almost no effort. I stand corrected.
They may require almost no effort for you. For someone like me who never does JP because even difficult Vista’s are too difficult, they are not “almost no effort”. But I guess the standard for these things is only from the POV of those who like them.
it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol
No you want to do them to attain some frivolous rewards, making them completely optional.
Mastery points are frivolous?
Considering how many excess ones we have, yes chasing the ONE located in a JP when you know you hate JP’s is not only frivolous but an exercise in insanity.
You’d think if you hate platforming, you’d i don’t know here NOT do that part and chase the literally hundreds of other alternatives.
But the rest are hidden behind in game games (mini games) so you have to do JP or Mini Games which really shouldn’t be part of the Mastery System in my opinion. This is forcing you to do one or both of these content types.
I go with the group that says give JP specific Achievements or Mini Game specific Achievements, even chests with awesome loot. Just don’t make them needed for Mastery’s that are tied to the flow of the general game and stories.
You yet again do not have too. You are literally choosing to frustrate yourself.
You can get enough masteries without ever touching a JP. Heck by now im pretty sure you can get enough without ever going above silver in adventures.
According to le wiki
There’s a total of 217 available points for HoT, and it only requires 137 to max out. That’s 70 OPTIONAL masteries. 30 of which are in Adventures…..
Yep totally required and forced content!
I have a problem with the Wiki page: I copied all of the HoT Mastery Points to a spreadsheet to analyze them and only came up with 189. So I counted the list one-by-one on the actual web page (in case something went wrong with my Paste) and only came up with 189.
Anyone know why this would be? There is no mention of this discrepancy on the web page.
The web page also lists 5 “Beta” MP which were only available during the HoT beta and were not carried to Live (according to the wiki). Not sure why they are even listed if they don’t count even for those who got them.
it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol
Is supposedly a list of all MP. The HoT list which starts by saying there are 217, includes the “HoT: Act 1” through “HoT: Act 4” story MP. There is nothing on that page to say why it says there are 217 but then only lists 189.
it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol
No you want to do them to attain some frivolous rewards, making them completely optional.
Mastery points are frivolous?
Considering how many excess ones we have, yes chasing the ONE located in a JP when you know you hate JP’s is not only frivolous but an exercise in insanity.
You’d think if you hate platforming, you’d i don’t know here NOT do that part and chase the literally hundreds of other alternatives.
Interesting use of the word “literally”.
There are 185 HoT mastery points available. You need 137 of them to complete the masteries. 30 of the 185 are adventures.
So, yeah, your math is a little off.
Edit: Thanks to Djinn in the next post, and whoever fixed the Wiki for the number change.
I agree that they should make the puzzles less trial and error with guesswork, but I actually like some of the challenge that comes with some difficult jumps. Guides are always available, just wish I didn’t have to use them every time for certain puzzles. Don’t make em dirt easy, though.
As for being part of collections, so what? Most aren’t that bad with a guide.
I agree that they are getting increasingly more difficult and frustrating, but as long as there are mesmers to help portal people like myself, who, for the life of me, simply try, and try, and try again, but still fail, as long as mesmers can use portals in these really frustrating jumping puzzles, I have no problems with them. I’m sure there are some people who absolutely love the difficulty of them. I’m not one of them XD but I think Anet should keep it how it is at the moment.
I agree that they should make the puzzles less trial and error with guesswork, but I actually like some of the challenge that comes with some difficult jumps. Guides are always available, just wish I didn’t have to use them every time for certain puzzles. Don’t make em dirt easy, though.
As for being part of collections, so what? Most aren’t that bad with a guide.
Yeah, I agree. I don’t object to various kinds of difficulty. What I object to is being forced to hammer my space bar with W held down, until I just happen to be pointing at the one pixel that will allow me to jump up onto a rock that is only to my waist.
it’s called a JUMPING PUZZLE. let that sink in for a moment.
For most of them, I just call them Jumping Procedurals, now. They’re usually not that difficult, and the most obnoxious thing about them is usually driven by the sloppy collision detection of the terrain instead of knowing where to go.
Although I can’t think of any platformer that was as bad as guild wars 2 are at explaining its mechanics and telegraphing what parts of the environment are actual parts of the platform riddle. I don’t mind difficult content. I just want it to be explained and fair.
This. Said it before, and so many times this.
GW2 is littered with spots where the interactable portion of the map doesn’t match the texturing, and vice-versa. I’ve slid down false slopes and gamed hitches in terrain or found “allowable” steed slopes that wouldn’t have worked elsewhere. It’s a common problem to MMOs in general.
Yeah, I agree. I don’t object to various kinds of difficulty. What I object to is being forced to hammer my space bar with W held down, until I just happen to be pointing at the one pixel that will allow me to jump up onto a rock that is only to my waist.
^ Cited for truth. ^
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“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
There is nothing more frustrating then being reminded of things we have trouble with. It’s why our Guild was formed (Tyrian Mystical Tours [PORT]). I will agree some jp’s seem to be impossible, or take too long to complete. One thing I have learned is a challenge is welcome, until you fail. But a few things to remember.
1) It’s just a game. Jump puzzles are there to test you, or not. (looking at you Skipping Stones!)
2) Don’t be too proud to ask for help. That’s part of the reason they are “Challenging”. They can be community builders.
3) When in doubt, give PORT a shout WE NEVER CHARGE! We can help you finish quickly or help you learn how to get it done on your own. Or even, learn with you!
+190 members, all Mesmers. We love Jp’s (some we love to run some we love to hate lol)
There is nothing more frustrating then being reminded of things we have trouble with. It’s why our Guild was formed (Tyrian Mystical Tours [PORT]). I will agree some jp’s seem to be impossible, or take too long to complete. One thing I have learned is a challenge is welcome, until you fail. But a few things to remember.
1) It’s just a game. Jump puzzles are there to test you, or not. (looking at you Skipping Stones!)
2) Don’t be too proud to ask for help. That’s part of the reason they are “Challenging”. They can be community builders.
3) When in doubt, give PORT a shout WE NEVER CHARGE! We can help you finish quickly or help you learn how to get it done on your own. Or even, learn with you!
+190 members, all Mesmers. We love Jp’s (some we love to run some we love to hate lol)
I remember doing Stepping Stones by myself. It would never have happened without me playing a mesmer. Saddest part was that after I finished, I didn’t have anyone to port up! ;_;
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“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
1. I play 2 main Norns in PvE, and I think my third main for upcoming expansion would be Norn too. I just like both male and female Norn models, humans are too… kinda “gay”. I like my chars to be brutal.
2. I hate asuras
3. I hate mesmers to some extend (mainly in PvP)
4. I ragequit every single jumping puzzle that i done like 2-3 times.
5. When I ragequit… it is Angry German Kid mode for my keyboard.
6. As you understand I hate JP.
Am I cool with the guy that looks like John 5 to do more of them? Yes.
BUT:
1. Remove them from map completion.
2. Separate them from globber quests. (just do globbers totally in JP, or not, it is bad when u realize that 3 missing tokens are in JP) 3. Make them puzzles
4. Make JP group content with several classes in mind (like you would need Mesmer to do that and Ranger to do that)
5. Create separate JP adventure packs with low gem price (3 jumping puzzles, one easy, one hard, one group content) like for 100 gems
6. Remove them from map completion
Am I cool with the guy that looks like John 5 to do more of them? Yes.
BUT:
1. Remove them from map completion.
2. Separate them from globber quests. (just do globbers totally in JP, or not, it is bad when u realize that 3 missing tokens are in JP) 3. Make them puzzles
4. Make JP group content with several classes in mind (like you would need Mesmer to do that and Ranger to do that)
5. Create separate JP adventure packs with low gem price (3 jumping puzzles, one easy, one hard, one group content) like for 100 gems
6. Remove them from map completion
This ^
it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol
WE NEVER CHARGE! We can help you finish quickly or help you learn how to get it done on your own. Or even, learn with you!