Guild Wars 2

Many of them are very, very hard. They were clearly designed with only humans in mind. For example, the camera gets VERY, VERY crammed in Trolls End as a Norn or Charr. Our bodies are far too big and sometimes we can’t even see anything. The camera also wobbles and makes it hard to focus. Sometime we get forced into first person where we pretty much have to guess how far to jump and run. The slower stride of Norn and Charr can also make it hard to judge your jumps. I often OVERshoot my jumps because my character’s walking speed* deceives me as to how fast I’m going. I’ve also gotten stuck in the geometry a few times.

Please adjust your more cramped JPs to fit norn and charr better. Way too se,many players are having trouble in these puzzles. Give the camera more space and adjust the geometry of the offending puzzles.

*Norn and Charr appear to have a slower stride to make up for their longer legs.

NOTE: The only puzzles I’ve personally experienced frustration on are Troll’s end (cramped camera) and Zriath’s Beacon(stuck in geometry) . I’m sure there are more, so if any other players have had frustrations with other puzzles, PLEASE mention them. We need to form a good list of offending puzzles.

You can set camera to Free. This is not a solution but trust me, it helps quite a bit. Learned this in first week with max sized Norn, fixed camera would get stuck with close in view and you were fubared.

i find making jumps where i can see easier on charr than any other class, but on small ledges you basically jump blind.

Josh, I hope you keep in mind the feet of bigger characters can be a confusing blob of heavy armor with a much more finicky hit box too. I’m shocked playing an asura character to max about how much smoother jumping in is than on my norn, that seems to be “stuck” on just about every part of a scenery.

Shrink potion. There solved the worst problem with the camera when it comes to size. The camera will still suck most of the time though. It simply is a very badly designed thing.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Yeah, I feel bad about the camera issues. The camera was changed just before we launched in order to accommodate a couple of systems, and as a result the way a lot of our JPs feel changed as well. When I was building Troll’s End I always tested it as a max-sized Male Norn, and it was ok. A bit claustrophobic, which was the intent, but not infuriating like it is now. Sadly there’s no good way for me to go in and make that area bigger without a HUGE rework of the area. What I can promise is that moving forward, as I make new JPs I’m keeping the new camera in mind all the time. I still can’t make it as smooth and wonderful as a dedicated platform game camera, but just try to minimize the frustrating bits.

Is there anyway to include the old camera system and just switch over to it within a certain range of a jumping puzzle? I’m not sure how deep in the game “cameras” tend to be.

Shrink potion, yes.

How about having the lowest level heart NPC in each area sell a shrink potion that last a set amount of minutes, say 10 or 15 minutes. That would be easy to find, acquire, and use.

why not allow the camera to go into first person if you zoom in enough? those of us that love taking screenshots of places or people will love that change and will help some people with the puzzles

Josh, can you please look into camera smoothing during camera offset at least?

Camera offset is an option available to us in the general options interface. Maybe a lot of people overlook it and don’t use it at all, but personally I like my toon offset to the left when I zoom in, gives me a nice ‘Gears of War’ camera feeling.

The problem is, when you guys fixed camera smoothing a few months ago, it did not fix for the offset camera positions. When the camera is offset it still jolts like crazy in jumping puzzles and walking through things like vineyards, or just a series of rocks.

I found jumping puzzles much easier to do with the Norn. Camera issues? Doesn’t bother me the slightest.

Josh Foreman.8250:

I’ll ask about it.

I’d totally mail you some ectoplasms right now, but you might get banned for it.

Much thanks!

Just another reason that Asura are the master race.

Omigosh, a JP dev is cool enough to converse with us plebs.

I’m about to squee in real life.

That’s probably the massive caffeine talking though.

JPs are my favorite way of getting loot. I love them keep it up. Also don’t be afraid to make them harder!

Make sure to tell terrain design that any new WvW map should have more JPs and maybe some interesting terrain in general…. Also tell class-balance that the engineer landmine shouldn’t expire

Hey Josh, any word on when that “Mother of all jumping puzzles” you said you were working on will be in game?

Great dialog and feedback. Thank you!!!!!

Dog.1472:

Just another reason that Asura are the master race.

Well said.

Yeah you have no idea how kitten ive gotten when doing some of the jumps when my GF(small female character) does it the first try and i spend 30 min(full size male charr) and still cant do it and end up literally ripping my keyboard out of my computer and throwing it across the room(yeah so i have possible rage issues but i also have lazy code and broken game issues).

And the camera angle in caves is just kittening stupid, i would even go as far as to say gamebreaking. WHY THE kitten CAN I NOT LOCK THE kitten CAMERA TO A SINLGE POSISTION??

I cant count how many times ive died in a cave while looking at some stupid wall where my character isnt even on the screen and i didnt move the camera it moved itself and while im figting with a kitten camera to try and see whats going on i die, and i have no way of knowing even how i died…..

I do not find it fair at all the the jump puzzle portion of the game is literally rigged against me while being much much easier for small characters.

When fighting large bosses like dragons, sometimes the camera zooms out to help see everything better, can we get the opposite to happen for us large players upon entering these areas besides resorting to my charr soilder tonic?

Is this jumping puzzle part of the rare boss?

Rifter.6591:

Yeah you have no idea how kitten ive gotten when doing some of the jumps when my GF(small female character) does it the first try and i spend 30 min(full size male charr) and still cant do it and end up literally ripping my keyboard out of my computer and throwing it across the room(yeah so i have possible rage issues but i also have lazy code and broken game issues).

And the camera angle in caves is just kittening stupid, i would even go as far as to say gamebreaking. WHY THE kitten CAN I NOT LOCK THE kitten CAMERA TO A SINLGE POSISTION??

I cant count how many times ive died in a cave while looking at some stupid wall where my character isnt even on the screen and i didnt move the camera it moved itself and while im figting with a kitten camera to try and see whats going on i die, and i have no way of knowing even how i died…..

I do not find it fair at all the the jump puzzle portion of the game is literally rigged against me while being much much easier for small characters.

It’s not a perfect solution, but you could use tonics to resize yourself. I have an endless, but knavish tonics (bandit) are on trading post for 13-20 copper. Some tonics can’t jump though, so watch it.

Chickenshoes.6250:

Rifter.6591:

Yeah you have no idea how kitten ive gotten when doing some of the jumps when my GF(small female character) does it the first try and i spend 30 min(full size male charr) and still cant do it and end up literally ripping my keyboard out of my computer and throwing it across the room(yeah so i have possible rage issues but i also have lazy code and broken game issues).

And the camera angle in caves is just kittening stupid, i would even go as far as to say gamebreaking. WHY THE kitten CAN I NOT LOCK THE kitten CAMERA TO A SINLGE POSISTION??

I cant count how many times ive died in a cave while looking at some stupid wall where my character isnt even on the screen and i didnt move the camera it moved itself and while im figting with a kitten camera to try and see whats going on i die, and i have no way of knowing even how i died…..

I do not find it fair at all the the jump puzzle portion of the game is literally rigged against me while being much much easier for small characters.

It’s not a perfect solution, but you could use tonics to resize yourself. I have an endless, but knavish tonics (bandit) are on trading post for 13-20 copper. Some tonics can’t jump though, so watch it.

I will look into this for sure, a guild mate mentioned this as a possible solution too.

Although i still think its kitten that the larger character needs to go to such great lengths and small ones dont all because Anet cant program a camera properly(or design a puzzle properly, either way it comes down to broken/lazy coding)

I, as a Norn, have no problem with jumping puzzles whatsoever.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Karizee.8076:

Hey Josh, any word on when that “Mother of all jumping puzzles” you said you were working on will be in game?

I’ve been dropping some more tidbits on the other JP thread.

Please, not another clock tower style speed puzzle.

wildcode.5403:

Josh Foreman.8250:

Karizee.8076:

Hey Josh, any word on when that “Mother of all jumping puzzles” you said you were working on will be in game?

I’ve been dropping some more tidbits on the other JP thread.

Please, not another clock tower style speed puzzle.

Nothing wrong with timelimit jumping puzzles imo, just don’t stick us into a cutscene again please. Any sort of lag makes you die before you are out of the cutscene =/

One other thing to think about is character height and width. Small characters have no disadvantage – they can move and jump as far as the tallest characters. But it seems that the characters bounding box does affect interaction with the environment, and it is most noticeable to me in jumping puzzles. For example, the water slide in the pirate’s cove jp in LA is much more forgiving for a small asura than a fat char. And there are a couple of jumps in the chandelier room in the EB jp that my taller characters often bump their heads on, missing the jump (and forcing a frustrating restart), whereas my shorter characters never seem to have any problem.

I remember doing most of the jumping puzzles as a Norn Warrior … I made my Norn as tall as possible, so perhaps that was a mistake on my part … it was a pain to get through most puzzles which confine you into a small space. The workaround is to use a tonic that reduces your size but still allows you to jump, such as the Sinister Automatonic which sells for roughly 30~40 copper on the Trading Post, or as chest drops from CoE.

Josh, would love to take this opportunity to thank you on all the magnificent jumping puzzle you’ve made. Me and my friends enjoy solving every one of it. Especially the one where we gotta gather 12 orbs for 3 chests in Malchor’s Leap.

Rifter.6591:

Chickenshoes.6250:

Rifter.6591:

Yeah you have no idea how kitten ive gotten when doing some of the jumps when my GF(small female character) does it the first try and i spend 30 min(full size male charr) and still cant do it and end up literally ripping my keyboard out of my computer and throwing it across the room(yeah so i have possible rage issues but i also have lazy code and broken game issues).

And the camera angle in caves is just kittening stupid, i would even go as far as to say gamebreaking. WHY THE kitten CAN I NOT LOCK THE kitten CAMERA TO A SINLGE POSISTION??

I cant count how many times ive died in a cave while looking at some stupid wall where my character isnt even on the screen and i didnt move the camera it moved itself and while im figting with a kitten camera to try and see whats going on i die, and i have no way of knowing even how i died…..

I do not find it fair at all the the jump puzzle portion of the game is literally rigged against me while being much much easier for small characters.

It’s not a perfect solution, but you could use tonics to resize yourself. I have an endless, but knavish tonics (bandit) are on trading post for 13-20 copper. Some tonics can’t jump though, so watch it.

I will look into this for sure, a guild mate mentioned this as a possible solution too.

Although i still think its kitten that the larger character needs to go to such great lengths and small ones dont all because Anet cant program a camera properly(or design a puzzle properly, either way it comes down to broken/lazy coding)

Well I play a norn and I do very very well, although he’s not max size.

I find many people who complains about doing JP’s or even Vistas on Charrs but i dont find that so hard. Yes its harder than on smaller races but its not impossible either and atleast for me satisfaction of doing hardest JP’s in hardest possible way ( using Charr ) brings in bigger feeling of personal reward.

Step 1: Dedicate time, effort, talented devs and resources to create jumping puzzles.
Step 2: Promote Jumping Puzzles as a big feature of the game.
Step 3: Change the camera at the last minute to break all of the jumping puzzles and half of the vistas.
Step 4: Launch the game because “it’s ready”.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Can’t just switch camera systems. The system is the way it is in order to accommodate a number of systems including an occlusion system that makes things on the other side of walls not render, and messing with the camera collision can push it through walls then you end up with half the world disappearing at random times. This is just one of the important systems that need the camera to behave a certain way. In the big picture, having the world drop away is higher on the priority list than making all the jumping challenges feel good. It would have been nice to have had a final camera when most of the JPs were being built, but the occlusion system didn’t get in until near the end of production, so we couldn’t have foreseen the crazy camera demands it would have. We can make little tweaks to the existing JPs, but that’s got it’s own can of worms associated with it, like introducing new bugs. As to a First Person Cam, I would LOVE it. But that’s ANOTHER big can of worms, as we would have to create a new system for how we reconcile the direction of the camera to the orientation of the player’s face as they do all sorts of crazy maneuvers like back-flips, cartwheels, 720 spins, etc. Not to mention dealing with how to render the weapons and attacks which were not created with that viewpoint in mind.

With the camera, I would like the option to have it a little above/behind the players head. When entering a doorway have the camera move forward. Low ceilings it would move to it’s current position.

Also in the sylvari starter zone, the quest where you turn into a small oakheart. The camera is really bad.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Can’t just switch camera systems. The system is the way it is in order to accommodate a number of systems including an occlusion system that makes things on the other side of walls not render, and messing with the camera collision can push it through walls then you end up with half the world disappearing at random times. This is just one of the important systems that need the camera to behave a certain way. In the big picture, having the world drop away is higher on the priority list than making all the jumping challenges feel good. It would have been nice to have had a final camera when most of the JPs were being built, but the occlusion system didn’t get in until near the end of production, so we couldn’t have foreseen the crazy camera demands it would have. We can make little tweaks to the existing JPs, but that’s got it’s own can of worms associated with it, like introducing new bugs. As to a First Person Cam, I would LOVE it. But that’s ANOTHER big can of worms, as we would have to create a new system for how we reconcile the direction of the camera to the orientation of the player’s face as they do all sorts of crazy maneuvers like back-flips, cartwheels, 720 spins, etc. Not to mention dealing with how to render the weapons and attacks which were not created with that viewpoint in mind.

First person view would make the jp much better and would be good for rpers so I think it would be worth the effort.

I have (had) this issue with the JP in the Mists Borderlands. I have a human, an Asura and a Norn character. And doing the JP as a Norn is a real pain. The camera keesp getting stuck. At certain points the camera actually tends to jump around, even though my character is standing still. At the jumping point up to the 1st Chest (lower key I think), closer to the entrance I have to carefully manage my camera as well as my character. I usually do not have any issues with my human character, but my Asura sometimes faces camera issues as well.

Good to see a dev actually answering questions, thank you

Josh Foreman.8250:

Can’t just switch camera systems. The system is the way it is in order to accommodate a number of systems including an occlusion system that makes things on the other side of walls not render, and messing with the camera collision can push it through walls then you end up with half the world disappearing at random times. This is just one of the important systems that need the camera to behave a certain way. In the big picture, having the world drop away is higher on the priority list than making all the jumping challenges feel good. It would have been nice to have had a final camera when most of the JPs were being built, but the occlusion system didn’t get in until near the end of production, so we couldn’t have foreseen the crazy camera demands it would have. We can make little tweaks to the existing JPs, but that’s got it’s own can of worms associated with it, like introducing new bugs. As to a First Person Cam, I would LOVE it. But that’s ANOTHER big can of worms, as we would have to create a new system for how we reconcile the direction of the camera to the orientation of the player’s face as they do all sorts of crazy maneuvers like back-flips, cartwheels, 720 spins, etc. Not to mention dealing with how to render the weapons and attacks which were not created with that viewpoint in mind.

So what your saying is that you dont understand that most people who want First person view would actualy be A-OK with it just being a head level view of your surroundings much like looking through your characters eyes

only with no weapons rendered and at worst your camera just move’s quickly when you dodge.

hell most of us probably don’t even want it for combat. ((many would probably use it for screen shots or Video’s turning the UI off as well. Make’s makeing a machinima a Lot harder.))
you can role in oblivion and skyrim in First person you know what it looks like, you move forward quickly

FYI good Machinima’s = Free game advertisement.

(oh and what ever happened to the Dev option for FP view that was in the early builds)

FLFW.3105:

I find many people who complains about doing JP’s or even Vistas on Charrs but i dont find that so hard. Yes its harder than on smaller races but its not impossible either and atleast for me satisfaction of doing hardest JP’s in hardest possible way ( using Charr ) brings in bigger feeling of personal reward.

I guess I don’t follow this train of thought. Yes, it is possible; I do it every day. But the challenge should be consistent within the context of the game system.

If bigger characters are “penalized” for their height or girth, they should also receive the benefits of being taller/bigger/stronger. Some game systems have taken this approach, but it leads to min/maxing to create the “best” character possible. I prefer the “level playing-field” approach that Anet has taken, but I believe the implementation has issues, and they may well extend beyond jumping puzzles. Do larger characters have a larger bounding box when being targeted by AOE? Are they easier to left-click on in a zerg situation? I don’t know the answer, but if so then it creates an unfair situation.

The only problem I have is that (as you said) the JP’s weren’t meant to be “real content”, but as a bonus.

Now, they’re suddenly required to finish a monthly.

If they’re required, they should be tweaked or repaired so that all races can have a true chance to do the puzzles without the player becoming outrageously annoyed and frustrated due to things the player has no control over.

Or they shouldn’t be required to be done…ever…as they are “bonus” content only.

Thank you for your consideration in this.

AriadneRaynor.7362:

The only problem I have is that (as you said) the JP’s weren’t meant to be “real content”, but as a bonus.

Now, they’re suddenly required to finish a monthly.

If they’re required, they should be tweaked or repaired so that all races can have a true chance to do the puzzles without the player becoming outrageously annoyed and frustrated due to things the player has no control over.

Or they shouldn’t be required to be done…ever…as they are “bonus” content only.

Thank you for your consideration in this.

I could not agree more with this statement.

For those interested in the new JP, or as he calls it “the mother of all jumping puzzles” and “a new type of dungeon”, there are some posts by him on the GW2 Reddit. Refreshing to have a dev talk candidly and explain the reasons behind decisions/systems.
http://www.reddit.com/user/Ragged_Scrybe

GW2 may still be in it’s post launch experimental period, but so far so good. Just hope the proof of concepts and experiments get looked at again/expanded later, like Modus Sceleris for example alot could be done with them.

AriadneRaynor.7362:

The only problem I have is that (as you said) the JP’s weren’t meant to be “real content”, but as a bonus.

Now, they’re suddenly required to finish a monthly.

If they’re required, they should be tweaked or repaired so that all races can have a true chance to do the puzzles without the player becoming outrageously annoyed and frustrated due to things the player has no control over.

Or they shouldn’t be required to be done…ever…as they are “bonus” content only.

Thank you for your consideration in this.

You only had to find the entrance to the JPs for the monthly, so that doesn’t really count. Of course I still agree they should fix the issues people are having with them.

There will be no waiting between tries on this one.

Music to my ears. I loooooove jumping puzzles where I can take my time, figure things out, and jump when I’m ready, I haaaaate the ones where the game forces me to move at its pace, and kills me if I fall behind.

Josh Foreman.8250:

No. All characters have identical collision and hit boxes. The only difference they have on the system side is the camera target, and that is what causes all the trouble in JP race discrepancies. If they didn’t then you would be staring at your Norn’s butt all day, or only see the very top of your Asura’s head.

If I may jump in on that issue, it would be nice if camera height could be adjusted, mostly because I have occasionally run into issues playing as an asura ranger in WvW that seemed to be due to the lower camera.

That aside, this has been an informative and interesting thread.

AriadneRaynor.7362:

The only problem I have is that (as you said) the JP’s weren’t meant to be “real content”, but as a bonus.

Now, they’re suddenly required to finish a monthly.

If they’re required, they should be tweaked or repaired so that all races can have a true chance to do the puzzles without the player becoming outrageously annoyed and frustrated due to things the player has no control over.

Or they shouldn’t be required to be done…ever…as they are “bonus” content only.

Thank you for your consideration in this.

Actually, the way that monthly worked was odd. You only needed to “discover” them. For some it meant finishing them, but for others all you had to do was get somewhere near the entrance. Also, you could “discover” the same one with multiple characters and I’m pretty sure that you could re-“discover” the same one with the same character each new day (when dailies reset). That achievement was odd all around.

I wasn’t too fond of that as part of the monthly achievement either way, but I just figured I’d clarify that. I guess I’ll still take that over needing to play tournament games for the PvP monthly. I have never finished a PvP monthly because I have zero interest in tournament games, at least for now. I just like my PvP a bit more laid back (and ideally with less drama), I guess.