Guild Wars 2

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

I havent done Fractals that much but I have done quite a few so I have learned some ways to do most fractals. I have been doing Fractals with my old guild with someone leading us and now recently I have been doing Fractals with my own guild where I have been leading us. One day we was short on one player so a Guild member had a friend who had fractal level 47 or something who we let join us. So we played on Fractal level 17-ish and what was so fun was that this player (Who is realy good, kind and helpfull) played the fractal as if it was fractal level 47, he wanted us to stack in a corner becouse if we didn’t mobs would kill us and the fun part was by doing this it all took longer time. It was a slow but sure method.

The point with what I said is that some players learn how to play a Fractal the best way and the most easy way and also they think that is the only way. maby it is the only way at Fractal 40-50 but at 10-19 it is not that hard. In our Guild not everyone has AR yet but we let them join for 10-19 runs anyway becouse they are easy. When we first tried fractal 10 there was only one player who had AR and we managed without much trouble to get to just this boss OP is talking about but they did to much attacks with agony so it was impossible for us to manage a perfect run :P

Anyway in OP’s scenario… If his team would have just scrapped this stupid tactic to stack and reflect they could have done it without OP alive even. It was Fractal level 10-19 not 20 or higher (Not even at 20 it is that hard).

ar requirement scales per level, taking 12% per tick on the molten duo means, you almost die every time you start the fight, unavoidable agony. it means getting downed= death (because you can no longer dodge aoe, and take 12%hp extra damage with every hit.

Its not impossible, but its pretty unlikely unless you are experienced, and even then its difficult. Since he basically died fast, he was not good enough to play against that level of agony.
just putting 1 agony infusion, which costs 175 fractal relics would reduce the damage by half, (instead of almost dying at the beginning, he wouldnt even go down) 10, would have made the agony portion 1%, and negligable.

like i said, AR isnt a skill check anymore, its basically a gate. sadly, its most gatelike only when you reach the last fractal. (if its not jade maw, which gives you plenty of time to recover from guaranteed agony)

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

Molch.2078:

You play a heal guardian with no AR at a low level fractal with randoms and you are surprised you got kicked when things went badly?

I agree that kicking someone at the last fractal isn’t nice, but you are not entirely innocent here. The meta is there for a reason.

Thats funny, so you say becouse he play the way he wants he deserves the kick? As I just said in above post, fractal level 10-19 isn’t that hard so Zerker isn’t the only viable stats for this. As I havent got higher than 20-29 Fractals I can’t comment about if you only need Zerkers for higher fractals but I doubt that.

Then let me emphasize:

You play a heal guardian with no AR at a low level fractal with randoms and you are surprised you got kicked when things went badly?

If you play since beta you should know how the average pug ticks. I am not defending the guys who kicked him, but you should know what you’re getting into when you join a pug.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Lol… so many bad zerkers in this thread. If you’re good enough you don’t even get hit by anything without even using a skill.
But sadly the game is about doing it as fast as possible as mindless as possible. I guess we won’t be seeing any of you casuals when raids come out, if you think 20 minutes is long.

20 minutes is long for a thing that should be done in 5-10. That was just example. Op do fractals in 1h and 30 minutes, I do them in 40 minutes. If someone will double time needed for every dungeon I do… thats not only 20 minutes. It adds up to few hours extra.
My point is, don’t be too slow. Don’t even have to be zerker. Be full knight armor, thats fine. Pick correct dps weapons, useful utilities. Don’t camp staff on necro, don’t camp mace on guard while being cleric. In my opinion thats just rude. Don’t make me waste 2 hours because you wanna be some fancy cleric healer.

phys.7689:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

I havent done Fractals that much but I have done quite a few so I have learned some ways to do most fractals. I have been doing Fractals with my old guild with someone leading us and now recently I have been doing Fractals with my own guild where I have been leading us. One day we was short on one player so a Guild member had a friend who had fractal level 47 or something who we let join us. So we played on Fractal level 17-ish and what was so fun was that this player (Who is realy good, kind and helpfull) played the fractal as if it was fractal level 47, he wanted us to stack in a corner becouse if we didn’t mobs would kill us and the fun part was by doing this it all took longer time. It was a slow but sure method.

The point with what I said is that some players learn how to play a Fractal the best way and the most easy way and also they think that is the only way. maby it is the only way at Fractal 40-50 but at 10-19 it is not that hard. In our Guild not everyone has AR yet but we let them join for 10-19 runs anyway becouse they are easy. When we first tried fractal 10 there was only one player who had AR and we managed without much trouble to get to just this boss OP is talking about but they did to much attacks with agony so it was impossible for us to manage a perfect run :P

Anyway in OP’s scenario… If his team would have just scrapped this stupid tactic to stack and reflect they could have done it without OP alive even. It was Fractal level 10-19 not 20 or higher (Not even at 20 it is that hard).

ar requirement scales per level, taking 12% per tick on the molten duo means, you almost die every time you start the fight, unavoidable agony. it means getting downed= death (because you can no longer dodge aoe, and take 12%hp extra damage with every hit.

Its not impossible, but its pretty unlikely unless you are experienced, and even then its difficult. Since he basically died fast, he was not good enough to play against that level of agony.
just putting 1 agony infusion, which costs 175 fractal relics would reduce the damage by half, (instead of almost dying at the beginning, he wouldnt even go down) 10, would have made the agony portion 1%, and negligable.

like i said, AR isnt a skill check anymore, its basically a gate. sadly, its most gatelike only when you reach the last fractal. (if its not jade maw, which gives you plenty of time to recover from guaranteed agony)

Short on time now sorry, so I am just gonna answer the first part.
Thats why the one without AR stands near his/her team to be rezzedas soon as he/she goes down in the begining. At first try there will be an intro wich let’s you rez before the fight starts. I managed to survive that fight with no AR and I dont think I am that good but also as I said we got that fight with a team of five where only one had AR and we failed that becouse every player has to make a near perfect run :P I am well aware of that. But in OP situation it should have been only him with AR0 and by that the team should have been able to handle it at Fractal level 10-19 if they werent so dumb to think they had to stack kill that boss.

meta is meta bro

L2p issue, on ALL party members, next…

phys.7689:

yeah, as someone said, things have changed a bit. Agony will straight kill you now, and bosses throw agony on little attacks now as well. You are basically supposed to have agony.

Also, the upper teens are pretty rough with players that dont know the fights too well. Not impossible, but i have had level 16 runs that took longer, and had more drama than level 38 runs.

6% agony will only get you to 60% health on the last boss fight. All other agony is avoidable. Hence when last boss agony wasn’t forced people climbed all the way to level 80. I don’t see lacking 5 or even 10 as a big deal, because you can survive it.

Mirta.5029:

phys.7689:

yeah, as someone said, things have changed a bit. Agony will straight kill you now, and bosses throw agony on little attacks now as well. You are basically supposed to have agony.

Also, the upper teens are pretty rough with players that dont know the fights too well. Not impossible, but i have had level 16 runs that took longer, and had more drama than level 38 runs.

6% agony will only get you to 60% health on the last boss fight. All other agony is avoidable. Hence when last boss agony wasn’t forced people climbed all the way to level 80. I don’t see lacking 5 or even 10 as a big deal, because you can survive it.

you wont get 6% agony though, you will get 12% agony. which puts you to be downed, your ability to recover after the intro is low, because they dont stand around and do a cutscene any more.
people reviving you will likely take damage, and most likely you will be killed even while they try to res you, keep in mind at this point there are two enemies with large AOE and projectiles. getting downed with no AR is basically death.

Is it impossible? not at all, is it likely, or easy? not really. Like i said, they could have carried him, but people tend to get offended when they start off fights with fully dead people, especially once they lose more than 2 times.

I wouldnt kick him, but many other players would.

I had a fractal that when essentially the same way at level 30
after like 2 tries they kicked the guy who insta died with 25 agony resist (18%) is full death
then they kicked the guy who probably had 30, who took 12% damage, and went down at start, and died when things got rough.

I didnt vote to kick them but at that time it only took 2 people

Also, though the other agony is avoidable, it isnt easily avoided. And reviving people in this fight is fairly difficult, which makes people less tolerant of death.

So can someone explain to me what most people in this thread mean with “support guardian”? Because I don’t get it. To me “support guardian” sounds like saying “wet water” or “round wheel”.

So what is a “support guardian” and how is it different from other guardians in terms of supporting the team?

Playing a support class is fine, so long as the rest of the party has enough dps to kill the boss. However, your problem is that you are entering a fractal with insufficient AR to support yourself. You can’t blame the rest of the party for being upset at you for not having the correct amount when I’m sure you knew beforehand how much you needed. I’m sure you are busy and it can be hard to find time to get the relics to buy the infusions, but you can’t blame pugs who want efficient runs (or who also are busy and have time constraints).

ArchieD.6972:

……I’m often the only one that stays at full health an entire fight.
…….

Not to be mean to the OP, but I see THIS statement as the root of his issue. If the OP thinks this is a GOOD sign, I’m not sure anyone can help him….

Also, if this was an +10 fractal being played without ANY AR…..(what are you thinking?)

LucosTheDutch.4819:

So can someone explain to me what most people in this thread mean with “support guardian”? Because I don’t get it. To me “support guardian” sounds like saying “wet water” or “round wheel”.

So what is a “support guardian” and how is it different from other guardians in terms of supporting the team?

I’m not sure what he is talking about. But guardian by itself is a support class. “reflect, healing, aegis” etc. Just like warrior people think of banner, ele people think of ice bow, thief blind.

you can trait and gear for max dps 4/6/2/0/2 and you are still expected to be a support class.

laokoko.7403:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

So can someone explain to me what most people in this thread mean with “support guardian”? Because I don’t get it. To me “support guardian” sounds like saying “wet water” or “round wheel”.

So what is a “support guardian” and how is it different from other guardians in terms of supporting the team?

I’m not sure what he is talking about. But guardian by itself is a support class. “reflect, healing, aegis” etc. Just like warrior people think of banner, ele people think of ice bow, thief blind.

you can trait and gear for max dps 4/6/2/0/2 and you are still expected to be a support class.

That is exactly my point. A guardian’s capability of supporting the team isn’t dependent on gear. So I really want to know what people mean when they say “support guardian”. Do they mean the full zerker meta guardian build? Because to my knowledge that is the best support build available for guardians.

laokoko.7403:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

So can someone explain to me what most people in this thread mean with “support guardian”? Because I don’t get it. To me “support guardian” sounds like saying “wet water” or “round wheel”.

So what is a “support guardian” and how is it different from other guardians in terms of supporting the team?

I’m not sure what he is talking about. But guardian by itself is a support class. “reflect, healing, aegis” etc. Just like warrior people think of banner, ele people think of ice bow, thief blind.

you can trait and gear for max dps 4/6/2/0/2 and you are still expected to be a support class.

Yeah OP does not give any specifics at all except that he is using a shield and a staff. My guess is he is using clerics armor and some poorly placed trait points. My co-leader gave me a great support/dps guard build if anyone is interested which I do use for lvl 49 fractals with great success. Full zerker gear with trait points set to 0/0/6/6/2, using a hammer and either scepter/focus or staff. You will be healing and removing condies from the party and reflects of a typical guardian, but the damage actually comes from the hammer auto attack. If traited correctly those symbols from the hammer are perma and deal massive aoe damage while also giving everyone inside it the protection boon.

Also, just to add that there are ‘non support’ guard builds like the vulnerability/blind build. It’s a highly dps which I wouldn’t classify as support.

phys.7689:

you wont get 6% agony though, you will get 12% agony. which puts you to be downed, your ability to recover after the intro is low, because they dont stand around and do a cutscene any more.
people reviving you will likely take damage, and most likely you will be killed even while they try to res you, keep in mind at this point there are two enemies with large AOE and projectiles. getting downed with no AR is basically death.

Is it impossible? not at all, is it likely, or easy? not really. Like i said, they could have carried him, but people tend to get offended when they start off fights with fully dead people, especially once they lose more than 2 times.

I wouldnt kick him, but many other players would.

I had a fractal that when essentially the same way at level 30
after like 2 tries they kicked the guy who insta died with 25 agony resist (18%) is full death
then they kicked the guy who probably had 30, who took 12% damage, and went down at start, and died when things got rough.

I didnt vote to kick them but at that time it only took 2 people

Also, though the other agony is avoidable, it isnt easily avoided. And reviving people in this fight is fairly difficult, which makes people less tolerant of death.

everything that heals or sponges the damage still works with agony. On my necro I would just death shroud, on a guardian you could take out your support book just before hitting agony and heal to full before you hit 0.

Mirta.5029:

phys.7689:

you wont get 6% agony though, you will get 12% agony. which puts you to be downed, your ability to recover after the intro is low, because they dont stand around and do a cutscene any more.
people reviving you will likely take damage, and most likely you will be killed even while they try to res you, keep in mind at this point there are two enemies with large AOE and projectiles. getting downed with no AR is basically death.

Is it impossible? not at all, is it likely, or easy? not really. Like i said, they could have carried him, but people tend to get offended when they start off fights with fully dead people, especially once they lose more than 2 times.

I wouldnt kick him, but many other players would.

I had a fractal that when essentially the same way at level 30
after like 2 tries they kicked the guy who insta died with 25 agony resist (18%) is full death
then they kicked the guy who probably had 30, who took 12% damage, and went down at start, and died when things got rough.

I didnt vote to kick them but at that time it only took 2 people

Also, though the other agony is avoidable, it isnt easily avoided. And reviving people in this fight is fairly difficult, which makes people less tolerant of death.

everything that heals or sponges the damage still works with agony. On my necro I would just death shroud, on a guardian you could take out your support book just before hitting agony and heal to full before you hit 0.

So, are you trying to say that because he didn’t enter the fractal with the proper amount of AR, that he should now use an elite skill that has a 3 minute recharge just so he wouldn’t die before the fight even starts? That is such a selfish play style. I have several guildies in my pve guild who no matter what believe that ‘surviving’ is the most important thing in a dungeon and therefore run the most inefficiant builds there are. If you can’t adapt to the fractal/dungeon or whatever don’t get upset at everyone else (not to say that the rest of OP’s party was any good which I do not know if they were or weren’t).

Call me a jerk, but this is why I bring my guardian to fractals. I want to make sure that extremely important party-wide support provided by that class will be present and actually used.

Simply by switching your main weapon to hammer (perma protection for everyone in melee range w/ extended symbols) will likely allow you to mitigate more damage than your heals would have healed for the vast majority of the fights. Adding aegis rotation (for some reason I’ve noticed that most ‘support guardians’ never use their aegis rotation) will help your entire party avoid even more. Reflects is a double whammy with damage avoided by party + damage done to the enemy.

Guardians have so many tools to help party mitigate or avoid damage, that it’s really sad when only tool used is ‘healing’.

Eight Samurai.6840:

I have several guildies in my pve guild who no matter what believe that ‘surviving’ is the most important thing in a dungeon and therefore run the most inefficiant builds there are.

if you are unhappy with these people, please, send them my way. No need to make others feel bad just because they don’t adhere to your specific rules. Also don’t want to run with anything besides zerker? Then put that in the LFG description.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Lol… so many bad zerkers in this thread. If you’re good enough you don’t even get hit by anything without even using a skill.
But sadly the game is about doing it as fast as possible as mindless as possible. I guess we won’t be seeing any of you casuals when raids come out, if you think 20 minutes is long.

True, but if you don’t tell your group that you don’t have any AR and therefore strategies that involve not dodging through Agony might be agreed upon by the majority who aren’t aware of the person without any AR.

Or that if dodging doesn’t happen at the right moment because we’re all human and mess up sometimes that he’s going to suffer a lot from Agony and may need to play differently to compensate after a mistake is made.

A lot of who is all to blame for the situation is dependent on when the group learned the OP did not have any AR.

Please don’t twist my words. I do not insult any of my guildies for running builds they want, nor do I enforce any builds in my guild at all, I have better things to do in game than that. What I do however is give them advice and reasons as to why zerker is the way to go and it’s up to whomever in my guild to listen or not. When you get as good at dungeons as my guild is, it really doesn’t matter if several in the party aren’t running zerker because it will still be a fast run either way. However, just cus I don’t care either way with my guildies, doesn’t mean that some aren’t running efficient builds. There are few people in my guild that fall under this, and when I do run dungeons or fractals with them, there is clear evidence that runs are significantly slower because their ‘support’ builds are actually selfish survivability builds.

cant find sympathy for a guardian using staff in dungeons, sorry op

Eight Samurai.6840:

Please don’t twist my words. I do not insult any of my guildies for running builds they want, nor do I enforce any builds in my guild at all, I have better things to do in game than that. What I do however is give them advice and reasons as to why zerker is the way to go and it’s up to whomever in my guild to listen or not. When you get as good at dungeons as my guild is, it really doesn’t matter if several in the party aren’t running zerker because it will still be a fast run either way. However, just cus I don’t care either way with my guildies, doesn’t mean that some aren’t running efficient builds. There are few people in my guild that fall under this, and when I do run dungeons or fractals with them, there is clear evidence that runs are significantly slower because their ‘support’ builds are actually selfish survivability builds.

I never said that you insulted them. All I’m saying is that you promoting zerker will probably make them feel bad sooner or later. Especially when you put up such a statement on the forums. So if you’re unhappy with them, you might as well give them away to guilds that have absolutely no problem with who runs what.

Zenith.7301:

Um, you were probably the cause with your “support” guardian why the group didn’t kill the molten charr within the first reflection wall, which is likely what wipes a group.

This is literally the the one fight in the game where the longer you take to kill a boss the harder/more unforgiving the fight gets.

The real support in this game is boosting your team’s DPS and reflecting/aegis the crap that kills them. They don’t need you to tank. They don’t need you to heal. They just need you to kill that crap asap and give them enough blocks/reflects to get that burst uninterrupted with 25 might stacks and fury.

Stop thinking there are roles other than DPS in this game. The way it functions is you maximize offense and bring the bare minimum of support required so that nobody dies.

This should be a disclaimer before entering a ‘zerker meta’ party. Well said, mate, well said.

Eight Samurai.6840:

Also, just to add that there are ‘non support’ guard builds like the vulnerability/blind build. It’s a highly dps which I wouldn’t classify as support.

Euhm those guardians are actually the most supportive guardians out there. They don’t just classify as support, they classify as the best support you can get, hence they are the meta.

Blind spam, vulnerability spam, aegis rotations, reflect rotations, a huge kitten nal of group condi-cleanse and 100% protection upkeep when needed, all that while also having decent DPS because of the Berserker gear with Scholar runes makes guardians the most desired class for any dungeon/fractal run, especially in pugs.

Mirta.5029:

Eight Samurai.6840:

snip

I never said that you insulted them. All I’m saying is that you promoting zerker will probably make them feel bad sooner or later. Especially when you put up such a statement on the forums. So if you’re unhappy with them, you might as well give them away to guilds that have absolutely no problem with who runs what.

This guy is actually being a good guild leader by trying to inform his guildies how to improve their builds and play skillfully. They have no reason to feel bad since they aren’t begin forced to do anything, just begin told simple facts of how this game works and given the knowledge of how to become better if they choose.

If he kicked them out the guild and told them to join a more casual one, that would be far worse than what hes doing now.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Eight Samurai.6840:

Also, just to add that there are ‘non support’ guard builds like the vulnerability/blind build. It’s a highly dps which I wouldn’t classify as support.

Euhm those guardians are actually the most supportive guardians out there. They don’t just classify as support, they classify as the best support you can get, hence they are the meta.

Blind spam, vulnerability spam, aegis rotations, reflect rotations, a huge kitten nal of group condi-cleanse and 100% protection upkeep when needed, all that while also having decent DPS because of the Berserker gear with Scholar runes makes guardians the most desired class for any dungeon/fractal run, especially in pugs.

I meant non-support relative to the typical pure heal guards that OP is probably using. I run that blind build in dungeons if I take my guard though it is a really squish.

I ran a lot of fractals in my day, really a ton though I stopped when A-net decided to reset my fractal levels and haven’t done much on them since.

Anyways, as far as builds go, I found hybrid builds with occasional adjustment for more offense or defense to be the best. I adjusted depending on the rest of the group went. If they needed more survivability, I would provided it simply by switching some utility skills or traits, same if they needed more offense. This is what made flexible hybrid builds the best.

As far as AR went, I had a simple rule, if you don’t have enough AR, you get 1 try and 1 try only. if you die the 2nd time, you’re out. The end. No discussions ifs ands or buts. You had your chance, you blew it. I don’t care if you think you’re so great that you don’t need any AR on your gear and can dodge and avoid everything, or if you have 2-3 times whats required and can stand there and laugh. I don’t care what you do, as long as you don’t get dropped from it. You get dropped from it for whatever reason, you’re out. You manage to stay up and deliver your deeps, support or whatever, we’re cool. The End.

zombyturtle.5980:

Mirta.5029:

Eight Samurai.6840:

snip

I never said that you insulted them. All I’m saying is that you promoting zerker will probably make them feel bad sooner or later. Especially when you put up such a statement on the forums. So if you’re unhappy with them, you might as well give them away to guilds that have absolutely no problem with who runs what.

This guy is actually being a good guild leader by trying to inform his guildies how to improve their builds and play skillfully. They have no reason to feel bad since they aren’t begin forced to do anything, just begin told simple facts of how this game works and given the knowledge of how to become better if they choose.

If he kicked them out the guild and told them to join a more casual one, that would be far worse than what hes doing now.

This. I didn’t get the impression that Eight Samuri was being pushy with his advice.

And personally, if I didn’t know the reason why zerker was meta and someone told me, I’d be thankful. Because then my choice to follow or not follow the meta would not be out of ignorance, but due to making an informed decision.

Noob question: when doing the Mai Trin fractal I’m hit with agony before the fight even starts and I think the same happens in any other fractal- it seems as if agony is randomly applied – so how do I dodge it?
And if I can’t then there’s nothing one can do except getting “enough” AR.

Jana.6831:

Noob question: when doing the Mai Trin fractal I’m hit with agony before the fight even starts and I think the same happens in any other fractal- it seems as if agony is randomly applied – so how do I dodge it?
And if I can’t then there’s nothing one can do except getting “enough” AR.

Enought AR, healing skill.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Agony_Resistance
check out the table

RSLongK.8961:

Jana.6831:

Noob question: when doing the Mai Trin fractal I’m hit with agony before the fight even starts and I think the same happens in any other fractal- it seems as if agony is randomly applied – so how do I dodge it?
And if I can’t then there’s nothing one can do except getting “enough” AR.

Enought AR, healing skill.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Agony_Resistance
check out the table

I know, but people in this thread were talking about dodging it and “giving someone one chance to survive without AR” although when I hadn’t had enough AR once I have been insta downed by agony, so that kind of puzzles me.

Jana.6831:

Noob question: when doing the Mai Trin fractal I’m hit with agony before the fight even starts and I think the same happens in any other fractal- it seems as if agony is randomly applied – so how do I dodge it?
And if I can’t then there’s nothing one can do except getting “enough” AR.

Every ‘boss fractal’ applies agony to everyone in party when they enter the boss room and no you cannot dodge it. This is where you can easily see who has the proper amount of AR and who doesn’t.

Now for your other question all bosses in any fractal have the ability to apply agony to people in your party. This is not done by entering the final area, but rather by getting hit by specific skills. Some skills don’t apply agony if you are hit, but other attacks do and can apply several stacks instantly if you’re not careful.

zombyturtle.5980:

This guy is actually being a good guild leader by trying to inform his guildies how to improve their builds and play skillfully. They have no reason to feel bad since they aren’t begin forced to do anything, just begin told simple facts of how this game works and given the knowledge of how to become better if they choose.

If he kicked them out the guild and told them to join a more casual one, that would be far worse than what hes doing now.

trying to funnel everyone into the same build is not being a good guild leader by far. Especially if his people lack the ability to survive in zerker, or find damage builds to be boring.

ArchieD.6972:

I main a Warrior. I have a certain attachment to him as he was my first character, but I also have 8 other lvl 80s. Now, I also like to support players and love seeing the shields and green numbers when I play my Guardian, especially when I see players on the brink of death and I’m able to save them.

So that’s why today, it’s gonna be hard for me to say goodbye to the Guardian, at least for now. Fractals can take upwards of an hour, hour and a half, which makes getting the Relic rewards at the end pretty important to someone who works more than a full time job and is trying to finish up his degree. Now I know my fights, and I may not have agony resistance, but I know how to survive it and/or avoid it in the 10-19 tier. Me being traited for support, I’m often the only one that stays at full health an entire fight.

But when a group decides it’s best to stack on the last boss of the fractal and eat his stomps while expecting me to throw a Reflecting Wall when we first enter to protect us from the fire from the other boss, there’s not much I can do to survive as I’m not able to heal myself at that critical moment. The first attempt, before they asked me to do that, went okay. We lost most of the party early so I died so we could restart the fight. We wiped a few more times because of various reasons like someone running in early, but long story short, I was kicked because I kept dying while trying to support them instead of helping myself.

So, give thanks to a group of players with a crappy attitude for losing a support player. Guess it’s back to my Warrior where all I care about is swinging my sword.

Guild Wars 2 is a support yourself and keep yourself alive first and do all you can do for your team second game.

If you’re not doing the first thing – expect people to kick you.

Mirta.5029:

zombyturtle.5980:

This guy is actually being a good guild leader by trying to inform his guildies how to improve their builds and play skillfully. They have no reason to feel bad since they aren’t begin forced to do anything, just begin told simple facts of how this game works and given the knowledge of how to become better if they choose.

If he kicked them out the guild and told them to join a more casual one, that would be far worse than what hes doing now.

trying to funnel everyone into the same build is not being a good guild leader by far. Especially if his people lack the ability to survive in zerker, or find damage builds to be boring.

He never said he was forcing them to switch to that. He said he was giving advise.

I know I for one would rather follow or not follow the meta due to being informed over ignorance. But that’s just me.

Mirta.5029:

trying to funnel everyone into the same build is not being a good guild leader by far. Especially if his people lack the ability to survive in zerker, or find damage builds to be boring.

Except he is not trying to funnel people into a build, he is trying to teach them how to play the game well, and explaining why certain gear stats matter for this and them giving them the opportunity to follow his advice if they want. Having a variety of builds just for the sake of it isnt good.

Harper.4173:

ArchieD.6972:

I main a Warrior. I have a certain attachment to him as he was my first character, but I also have 8 other lvl 80s. Now, I also like to support players and love seeing the shields and green numbers when I play my Guardian, especially when I see players on the brink of death and I’m able to save them.

So that’s why today, it’s gonna be hard for me to say goodbye to the Guardian, at least for now. Fractals can take upwards of an hour, hour and a half, which makes getting the Relic rewards at the end pretty important to someone who works more than a full time job and is trying to finish up his degree. Now I know my fights, and I may not have agony resistance, but I know how to survive it and/or avoid it in the 10-19 tier. Me being traited for support, I’m often the only one that stays at full health an entire fight.

But when a group decides it’s best to stack on the last boss of the fractal and eat his stomps while expecting me to throw a Reflecting Wall when we first enter to protect us from the fire from the other boss, there’s not much I can do to survive as I’m not able to heal myself at that critical moment. The first attempt, before they asked me to do that, went okay. We lost most of the party early so I died so we could restart the fight. We wiped a few more times because of various reasons like someone running in early, but long story short, I was kicked because I kept dying while trying to support them instead of helping myself.

So, give thanks to a group of players with a crappy attitude for losing a support player. Guess it’s back to my Warrior where all I care about is swinging my sword.

Guild Wars 2 is a support yourself and keep yourself alive first and do all you can do for your team second game.

If you’re not doing the first thing – expect people to kick you.

That’s not true, there are many optimal builds that sacrifice personal DPS to buff the party (like Phalanx Strength Warriors) while builds that focus on keeping just the player alive (like Altruistic Healing Guardians) aren’t similarly useful.

There is a reason certain builds are “expected” to just DPS, for example a Staff Elementalist, while they have the potential to Support and Control, they are mostly expected to stay in Fire and DPS. Their buffing is in the hands of other players of the party like an S/F Ele to stack might or a PS Warrior.

Team is always above the single player.

What I’ve gotten out of this story:

-Player has a main warrior: hit things until they die
-Player also has a guardian, but plays it differently than the meta
-On molten duo, player is fine with dodges, can’t do stack-and-whack DPS meta
-This fractal pug, supposedly bad, wanted DPS meta, expected guard with reflect/etc. to handle it.
-OP doesn’t do it. Deaths until /kick
-Everyone jumps on OP and accuses of lying/being a bad/L2P. Meta = only way to play!

I find it interesting when puggers, jumping into random games of hugely different players that never have nor will play together again, demand everyone come in predetermined builds and do predetermined strats, and will kick and tell anyone if they don’t like these predetermined ways that it is they who should go to private groups that do things differently.

The “meta” isn’t the only way. This will come as a shock to some people, but these efficient builds and strats weren’t figured out in PUGs, they came from private groups that wanted to do things the best ways possible. All randoms have done is adopt those strats, and it’s hilarious when they read guides, grind their gear and then join random groups, force others with gear checks and threats of kicks if they don’t get these efficient runs they saw on Youtube.

Algreg.3629:

we are just hearing one side of the story, and the only thing relevant there is how you “can play since beta” and still be a rather bad player without much insight into the game.

How the Blue Meanie is that relevant, let alone “the only thing relevant”? PUGs do not teach someone how to be a good player, or even teach anything. The vast majority are dead quiet players on auto-pilot, with an occasional “stack” thrown into chat for people sleeping. Only way to get this insight is to learn it from others, and I sure as heck wouldn’t blame OP for avoiding the forums for that, just looking through this thread.

Mirta.5029:

zombyturtle.5980:

This guy is actually being a good guild leader by trying to inform his guildies how to improve their builds and play skillfully. They have no reason to feel bad since they aren’t begin forced to do anything, just begin told simple facts of how this game works and given the knowledge of how to become better if they choose.

If he kicked them out the guild and told them to join a more casual one, that would be far worse than what hes doing now.

trying to funnel everyone into the same build is not being a good guild leader by far. Especially if his people lack the ability to survive in zerker, or find damage builds to be boring.

I clearly said earlier I do not enforce anything to anyone nor do I tell those guildies that they can’t run with me. There are many variations of zerker builds anyone can run, and if they don’t want to it’s fine, but do not expect to have everyone tolerate bad builds. Also, ‘the ability to survive’ is not a good argument, if you’re unwilling to practice and improve yourself, don’t expect everyone else to always carry you. To that note, just because I’m willing to do a dungeon or two with some of these guys sometimes, doesn’t mean I enjoy having hour and a half fractal runs or 20 min cof p1 dungeon runs consistently.

Whether people want to admit it or not there is a reason why zerker is the meta for 90% of this game and you will find hundreds of reasons as to why on the forums. Those that dungeoned from the beginning of gw2 knows that builds eventually evolved from being support to dps because the longer a fight drags on for, the higher chance of a party wipe.

OrianZeta.1537:

What I’ve gotten out of this story:

-Player has a main warrior: hit things until they die
-Player also has a guardian, but plays it differently than the meta
-On molten duo, player is fine with dodges, can’t do stack-and-whack DPS meta
-This fractal pug, supposedly bad, wanted DPS meta, expected guard with reflect/etc. to handle it.
-OP doesn’t do it. Deaths until /kick
-Everyone jumps on OP and accuses of lying/being a bad/L2P. Meta = only way to play!

I find it interesting when puggers, jumping into random games of hugely different players that never have nor will play together again, demand everyone come in predetermined builds and do predetermined strats, and will kick and tell anyone if they don’t like these predetermined ways that it is they who should go to private groups that do things differently.

The “meta” isn’t the only way. This will come as a shock to some people, but these efficient builds and strats weren’t figured out in PUGs, they came from private groups that wanted to do things the best ways possible. All randoms have done is adopt those strats, and it’s hilarious when they read guides, grind their gear and then join random groups, force others with gear checks and threats of kicks if they don’t get these efficient runs they saw on Youtube.

Algreg.3629:

we are just hearing one side of the story, and the only thing relevant there is how you “can play since beta” and still be a rather bad player without much insight into the game.

How the Blue Meanie is that relevant, let alone “the only thing relevant”? PUGs do not teach someone how to be a good player, or even teach anything. The vast majority are dead quiet players on auto-pilot, with an occasional “stack” thrown into chat for people sleeping. Only way to get this insight is to learn it from others, and I sure as heck wouldn’t blame OP for avoiding the forums for that, just looking through this thread.

The people here weren’t questioning his skill, but his build, and most importantly that he brought 0 AR to that fractal where it was clearly needed.

Eight Samurai.6840:

Every ‘boss fractal’ applies agony to everyone in party when they enter the boss room and no you cannot dodge it. This is where you can easily see who has the proper amount of AR and who doesn’t.

Now for your other question all bosses in any fractal have the ability to apply agony to people in your party. This is not done by entering the final area, but rather by getting hit by specific skills. Some skills don’t apply agony if you are hit, but other attacks do and can apply several stacks instantly if you’re not careful.

Ok, I’m rarely in a fractal lower than 34, so I only notice the randomly applied agony.
(https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Agony)
Thanks for explaining this to me.

Eight Samurai.6840:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Eight Samurai.6840:

Also, just to add that there are ‘non support’ guard builds like the vulnerability/blind build. It’s a highly dps which I wouldn’t classify as support.

Euhm those guardians are actually the most supportive guardians out there. They don’t just classify as support, they classify as the best support you can get, hence they are the meta.

Blind spam, vulnerability spam, aegis rotations, reflect rotations, a huge kitten nal of group condi-cleanse and 100% protection upkeep when needed, all that while also having decent DPS because of the Berserker gear with Scholar runes makes guardians the most desired class for any dungeon/fractal run, especially in pugs.

I meant non-support relative to the typical pure heal guards that OP is probably using. I run that blind build in dungeons if I take my guard though it is a really squish.

Being “squishy” is no issue because if you’re a good guardian and you’re with decent party members you’ll be bursting the mobs down so fast that for the short duration you’re actually in combat you’ll have plenty of blinds, blocks and reflects to mitigate most if not all damage. For longer fights hammer with perma-protection really helps out keeping yourself and your team alive.

Staying alive in GW2 PvE is all about active defenses and mitigating damage, not passive defenses or healing. The sooner people learn and understand that the better for everyone involved.

Zenith.7301:

Um, you were probably the cause with your “support” guardian why the group didn’t kill the molten charr within the first reflection wall, which is likely what wipes a group.

This is literally the the one fight in the game where the longer you take to kill a boss the harder/more unforgiving the fight gets.

The real support in this game is boosting your team’s DPS and reflecting/aegis the crap that kills them. They don’t need you to tank. They don’t need you to heal. They just need you to kill that crap asap and give them enough blocks/reflects to get that burst uninterrupted with 25 might stacks and fury.

Stop thinking there are roles other than DPS in this game. The way it functions is you maximize offense and bring the bare minimum of support required so that nobody dies.

This is exactly true. And I hate it.

Eight Samurai.6840:

I clearly said earlier I do not enforce anything to anyone nor do I tell those guildies that they can’t run with me. There are many variations of zerker builds anyone can run, and if they don’t want to it’s fine, but do not expect to have everyone tolerate bad builds. Also, ‘the ability to survive’ is not a good argument, if you’re unwilling to practice and improve yourself, don’t expect everyone else to always carry you. To that note, just because I’m willing to do a dungeon or two with some of these guys sometimes, doesn’t mean I enjoy having hour and a half fractal runs or 20 min cof p1 dungeon runs consistently.

Whether people want to admit it or not there is a reason why zerker is the meta for 90% of this game and you will find hundreds of reasons as to why on the forums. Those that dungeoned from the beginning of gw2 knows that builds eventually evolved from being support to dps because the longer a fight drags on for, the higher chance of a party wipe.

everyone’s own skill level is different and it’s going to be different. There are all sorts of players, not only teens that have enough time to practically live in the game. I’ve seen many many people go zerker when they honestly can’t handle it. They won’t improve – they’re at the peak of their skill as a player. It’s better that a player lives and DPSes, rather than wears the wrong armour and dies in one hit.

And that’s fine with me and I assume with many people. I don’t kick guildies from parties for not having the right builds. But you can’t also forget that with gw2 getting a lot of new players due to the 75% off sales, there are LOT’S of people right now running bad builds. There is no reason not to at least show and explain to them proper builds. For example, two new players in my guilds began playing warrior with the classic 5 signet build, their play style needed a lot of work, but I showed them the meta builds for warrior. The next couple days they were thanking me and saying how amazed they were with the way they play now.

But, there are way more people who don’t care for pugs or their problems. Some groups will kick you if you can’t perform, and OP choosing to join a fractal whether he was a support build or not with insufficient AR is a valid reason to kick.

Jana.6831:

RSLongK.8961:

Jana.6831:

Noob question: when doing the Mai Trin fractal I’m hit with agony before the fight even starts and I think the same happens in any other fractal- it seems as if agony is randomly applied – so how do I dodge it?
And if I can’t then there’s nothing one can do except getting “enough” AR.

Enought AR, healing skill.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Agony_Resistance
check out the table

I know, but people in this thread were talking about dodging it and “giving someone one chance to survive without AR” although when I hadn’t had enough AR once I have been insta downed by agony, so that kind of puzzles me.

Final Fractal boss agony (Entering Duo arena, maw contant attacks, may trim enter phase) Yes these are unavoidable, the “dodging” here is to use healing.
Now the first tree bosses fractal agony are inflicted upon damage, that can be dodged(albeit a lot of training may be required).

RSLongK.8961:

Jana.6831:

RSLongK.8961:

Jana.6831:

Noob question: when doing the Mai Trin fractal I’m hit with agony before the fight even starts and I think the same happens in any other fractal- it seems as if agony is randomly applied – so how do I dodge it?
And if I can’t then there’s nothing one can do except getting “enough” AR.

Enought AR, healing skill.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Agony_Resistance
check out the table

I know, but people in this thread were talking about dodging it and “giving someone one chance to survive without AR” although when I hadn’t had enough AR once I have been insta downed by agony, so that kind of puzzles me.

Final Fractal boss agony (Entering Duo arena, maw contant attacks, may trim enter phase) Yes these are unavoidable, the “dodging” here is to use healing.
Now the first tree bosses fractal agony are inflicted upon damage, that can be dodged(albeit a lot of training may be required).

I have been hit by 19k agony = insta downed in the dredge fractal when I hadn’t had enough AR – my healing spell was useless.

Jana.6831:

I have been hit by 19k agony = insta downed in the dredge fractal when I hadn’t had enough AR – my healing spell was useless.

was it the ground pound? In that case as you see the animation you double dodge. You save your dodges just for that. AR on that one is almost worthless as the amount of stacks of agony that he has kills no matter you’re ticking for 1% or 12%.

Mirta.5029:

Jana.6831:

I have been hit by 19k agony = insta downed in the dredge fractal when I hadn’t had enough AR – my healing spell was useless.

was it the ground pound? In that case as you see the animation you double dodge. You save your dodges just for that. AR on that one is almost worthless as the amount of stacks of agony that he has kills no matter you’re ticking for 1% or 12%.

No, it was the ice elemental and I have never been downed by agony in that fractal again when I got enough AR (I had some before but maybe 20 or 25 and we were running a 30+).

At 30+ with 20AR you cannot survive a boss. Minimum AR to survive level 30 is 30, but you will still die if the boss stacks more than one agony on you. You need 40AR to not care about agony anymore at 30+ (until 40)