Guild Wars 2

A TL;DR version is available at the bottom of this post.

Anyone else notice that despite ones profession, build, traits, etc., kiting seems to be just stupid easy as a tactic compared to melee? I don’t mean just a little easier or effective in a different manner or even as a back up, ‘oh kitten’, type of tactic. I mean like it can take a rough pull, mob, pack, or situation down to pretty much trivial. Personally, I kick out a slowing shot, a vulnerability shot, and then just do some bobbing and weaving or just run in a circle even. I might switch to my 2 hander and swoop in, pop a couple buffs and drop the level 3 adrenaline melee hit and then back to the basic kiting formula. It’s pretty much fail proof. If I pull a vet and an add or three though, best case I can get em all in my melee weapon’s cone of effect and land shots on all 3 , dodging when I can. I often find myself watching that Heal and Endure Pain count down like a hawk though. I mean lest we not forget I’ve still got 3 or more mobs slamming me in the face repeatedly plus stacking debuffs, etc. and so forth.

Logic and common sense would suggest that’s why we’d been given the heavy armor and the trait lines for our builds that we have. Personally, I’ve tried the “Glass Gannon, Max. DPS – kill em before they can do much damage” to the “Walking Brick Kitten House, Full Defense – I can do this all day” builds and pretty much every variation of the spectrum. Aside from Thieves, I guess I’m kind of taking it for granted that Warriors should be thee melee specialists in this game and pretty much come standard with the tools to absorb the massive difference in damage that is evident when standing toe to toe vs. mitigating that damage with essentially pure evasion. Unless I’m doing it wrong (which I’m always willing to accept as a potential issue), then the melee style of combat (or perhaps just the Warrior’s iteration there of) needs to be looked at by the developers.

Perhaps I’ve mis-spoken when I say despite any profession as the one I, by far, have the most experience with thus far in this game is the Warrior and maybe I should be posting this in that forum. I’d really like to get the feedback of all the professions though so maybe I can isolate the flaw here. Please, all useful feedback is very much welcomed and appreciated.

P.S It may help to also mention that I have tried pretty much all melee setup variations: weaponry, gear, builds, etc. and I make it a point to keep my gear pretty well current to my level. I’m also well acquainted with the dodge functions and am a fan (although those may need a slight tweak I.M.H.O, but that’s an entirely different thread and really hardly an issue more than a very minor flaw in application).

P.P.S I mean this specifically for PvE, farming kinds of game play. I recognize that variations are needed for group PvE content that would just make this topic a lot more complicated. I also have seen the benefits of both “Bezerker geared Glass Cannon” Warrior and the ability to run in, pop Frenzy, blow the wad and haul kitten in PvP as well as that of the ultra Defense buld Warrior in PvP.

TL;DR:

I play a Warrior. Kiting seems A LOT easier, more effective, and essentially risk free compared to melee. I’ve tried builds and setups geared entirely toward Defense and the exact opposite aimed specifically at maximizing DPS and plenty of hybrids in between the two with essentially the same effect. Basically I’m posting this to get the feedback of the entire community and all professions to see if this is generally noticeable to all or if it’s just a Warrior and / or melee type profession, build / set up issue. Or of course if I’m just making a huge oversight in how I specifically play my Warrior in melee and maybe if anyone suggest how I can “fix” that.

Frenzy normally gets people killed.

The way I see it, if youre talking pvp, I run in and pop in massive Melee damage, then my target runs, thats when i pop my rifle and finish them

Also when you melee you kite aswell, you dont stand still

Killing enemies before they get close to you is generally > standing next to them while they beat you with a big stick. I can’t remember playing a game where the opposite is true.

The ranged advantage has been a problem in MMOs since the beginning. No-one, including ArenaNet, has yet found a good solution. Consequently, I’ve not played melee since my very first WoW character, 7 years ago.

If you can get something done from far away, why would you ever want to take on any of the difficulties, dangers or risks of going close? It’s an inherent advantage. Shadowstep-like mechanics go some distance to fixing the problem, but not completely.

GW2 is a ranged players dream.

Yeah it’s easier, but you can do more damage melee if you’re willing to die for it.

I can kite all day with a short bow, range is so faceroll it’s not even funny. It’s boring.

tolunart.2095:

Killing enemies before they get close to you is generally > standing next to them while they beat you with a big stick. I can’t remember playing a game where the opposite is true.

Tolunart,

Really?? Do you play all FPS? I can rattle off tons of game, almost every fighting game as viable equal melee options, WoW, dark souls, dragon age, skyrim, are you new to video games or?

Hmm, from experience kiting does get the job done… eventually. The only problems are if you’re up against a boss that can’t be kited (immune to control like Risen Aboms) and/or has movement buffs and/or is ranged with no LOS to counter.

In terms of warrior combat it’s rare to actually fall in a straight up melee unless: a) you’re taking on more than you can chew, b) kitten gone down in dungeons or c) you’re in the middle of WvWvW zerg.

a) and b) aren’t so much problems as tactical errors or situational mishaps. c) however is a cause for concern as the only people you’re going to smash without fear of kitten are stragglers. Coupled with our relatively weak support abilities (banners offering a constant ~33 of all stats does not compare with other classes’ support abilities), our role in wvw is a tad limited.

Solutions to the problem without throwing balance into the winds escapes me. I guess it would be nice to have a pulling ability or a range-closer.

Remember to stay on your foes rear and flank even while in melee, as many special attacks require you be in front when they begin in order to hit you.

Other than that, I just started playing a warrior and was floored by how much better she is in melee than other classes of the same level. But, yeah, using ranged attacks while melee enemies are closing is a good idea, and then closing on ranged monsters and forcing them into melee is always smart.

It’s not as easy as people make it out to be, considering it relies heavily on situational awareness which…well, isn’t the typical MMO player’s strong point. I can do it, some of my friends can do it…but others I’ve seen are completely awful at it and show no signs of improving.

really melee is not that hard in this game other than some bosses, but kiting is the stronger way to go much safer. and kiting in this game =super easy just back up until mobs gets to you dodge thru attack animation slows mob repeat.

Meleeing gets you a lot more DPS but higher risk, Ranged gets you lower DPS and less risk.

Seems fine to me.

I typically use melee on my warrior unless I’m fighting too many mobs or fighting a champion mob.

The DPS advantage to melee is significant (and most melee weapon auto-attack skills for the warrior are AoE), but of course I take more damage. I can generally kite several mobs with my rifle, killing them one at a time without much risk (unless there’s not much room and respawn is fast), but if I can handle the damage, I can kill them tons faster with my sword.

I feel it’s a pretty good balance of risk vs reward.

@Red Falcon – “Meleeing gets you a lot more DPS but higher risk, Ranged gets you lower DPS and less risk.
Seems fine to me.”

Unless……………….

…you are a warrior with a rifle. Then you do just as much dmg from ranged =)

1) @Rizzy, I’m not referring to PvP at all here (I even put in a special comment in about that to be specifically clear). I know Frenzy is generally a death sentence also (particularly in PvP unless…), I generally pop Endure Pain simultaneously for that reason. Also, I’m aware that you sort of “kite” even in melee. I tried to be clear on that as well, I use my dodges though I don’t appreciate them enough to change my spec to “buff” them (if that’s even the right term to use there), and I don’t just stand flat footed and take turns punching each other in the face with the mob. I “stay in motion” even in melee, the more mobs you add to a pack though the less that helps though for obvious reasons (also the mob’s abilities and CC can greatly diminish our “float like a butterfly” school of fighting there as well).

2) @tulonart, Yes, it makes general common sense in life in general to kill an enemy before he gets with in range of being able to attack you. Common sense in establishing unique abilities for unique classes in a video game dictates that one type would greatly excel in melee while another does so in ranged though. Otherwise, why have a variety of classes at all? At the most all you’d need is a variety of ranged classes.

As far as games high lighting this difference, as the example I believe the overwhelming majority can relate to: the Warrior’s effectiveness in WoW with a ranged weapon is really of no use beyond pulling a mob. To strafe, circle and kite with a Warrior and a gun in WoW would be silly. They are thee melee specialists I hoped for and ranged attacks are nigh useless to them. I find this a general truth among the Warriors in most games personally.

3) @Elydian, I agree to an extent. There have been many attempts at least (some I’d personally consider succesfull) to level the playing field though. There in lies the use of and need for heavy armor, high defense stats and abilities unique to the melee class. Gap closers, blocks, parries, dodges and evasive tactics, as well as counters to CC and resistances to DoTs and the other tactics employed by the ranged classes.

Honestly the more I think about it, I realize that GW2 is likely balanced primarily around PvP (that being it’s claim to fame primarily) and it seems to me this would make class balancing extremely more difficult and delicate to keep given that. This likely makes the job of Devs for GW2 a lot more difficult than many other MMO’s who put PvE, and typically raid and group, balancing first. Point well taken sir.

4) @Rukia, Thank you Sir. I agree to an extent. I tried to be a little more ‘political’ about how I worded it but yeah. I can do some higher DPS in melee range but in most fights the trade-off isn’t quite worth it and actually in some fights the cost is downright prohibitive. As a Warrior my go to tactic shouldn’t be to whip out the rifle and kite to flat avoid most of the incoming damage to actually be victorious. Of course we always expect the damage, maybe it’s really the lack of ways to effectively deal with that damage that is the problem I’m attempting to high light here. Six of one, half dozen of the other though really – kiting wins where melee loses in the close call fights so far in my personal experience and it shouldn’t be this way.

5) @wookie slayer, Thank you as well Sir. Again I was trying to be ‘political’ in my answer but yeah, exactly.

6) @Red Falcon and Tallenn, You are correct Sir and I agree in a widely general sense. As I posted above to another respondant. There are encounters (particularly those with a Vet / Champ and adds) that unless I did approach the fight using ranged and kiting tactics I could not otherwise win, despite the trade off in DPS. What it comes down to is the ratio of incoming to outgoing DPS. And standing in the middle of a pack of the Champion and his adds (as all the climactic fights are structured past a certain level, or at least they have been for me) I simply cannot absorb all their attacks and pump out enough DPS to take them out 1 by 1 before I’m down. In addition to the ease provided by ranged tactics in flat avoiding most damage I can also pick apart a pack with ease only pulling 1 mob at a time no matter how close the mobs are to each other. In most other games of this sort even pulling at range you’re gonna pull the whole pack that’s within range of the one you shot.

Melee is higher DPS with more risk as range is lower DPS with less risk, on that we completely agree. It’s the level of risk I take issue with here, In most of the fights like I’ve described above the risk is so incredibly high of getting killed that there really is no question about which tactic to use. Ranged and win / live or Melee and lose / die. It’s a question of just plain balancing here I suppose.

Many thanks to you all by the way. So far I feel I’ve at least narrowed the issue down to it really being a question of balance. I also think it’s certainly a valid theory at least to reason that balancing the classes here in GW2 is made so much more difficult by putting PvP foremost and trying balance around that while still maintaining effective balance for all the classes in the PvE area of gameplay.

I’m starting to wonder if most games don’t intentionally announce and “market” there games as PvE with a PvP side game (to varying degrees) just for the ease of balance and that as a “go to excuse” if all else fails. We’ve all seen many games try to straddle that line and some end up falling flat on there face a while after realease when they take this “balancing act” on. I’m starting to think WoW owes some of it’s longevity to not at least royally kittening it all up when they tried (and still try to this day) to strike that day. And personally I’d say they’ve done a mediocre job at best with that balance. I mean, if you look at the arena rankings today they still look pretty cookie cutter as they did at the outset. The classes may change in that cookie cutter but only til the next round of “balancing” comes through.

Let’s keep this going please. How can this be fixed? Personally I feel the game should allow for a melee or ranged solution to any solo encounter. One or the other should not be a requirement. Or, for those that believe the balance between high DPS – High Risk Melee and Low DPS – Low Risk Ranged: Do you feel that all solo PvE fights have both an equally viable Melee and Ranged solution? Even so would this not give all Ranged Classes (who by course put out High Ranged DPS but still enjoy Low Risk) an obviously clear advantage?

Professions that can use melee weapons (and legit use them, not like the mesmer with the 2H greatsword) should have more endurance or faster endurance gain (maybe even a certain percentage gain per hit) or some combination of two… but only while they’re using melee weapons. May not be the best solution, but it at least gives them more opportunity to minimize damage intake.

deriver.5381:

@Red Falcon – “Meleeing gets you a lot more DPS but higher risk, Ranged gets you lower DPS and less risk.
Seems fine to me.”

Unless……………….

…you are a warrior with a rifle. Then you do just as much dmg from ranged =)

… yeah, and that’s a Warrior with a Rifle too. I’d like to think a Ranger with that Rifle would do considerably more DPS with their skills and build toward it (I wouldn’t know from experience though). If that IS the case this only throws the DPS vs. Risk balance that much further out of whack.

If I pop Frenzy and Signet of Rage (with Endure pain too), then open with Rush into 100 Blades and top it with a 3 stack Adrenal strike I do some quick and massive burst damage that I couldn’t even come close to with a Ranged weapon. If I consider sustainable DPS though? The DPS vs. Risk balance flies right out the window in my humble opinion. I’m comparing a Rare Rifle to a Rare Great Sword, both level 80, with pretty similar baseline damage and stats by the way.

Bruno Sardine.2907:

Professions that can use melee weapons (and legit use them, not like the mesmer with the 2H greatsword) should have more endurance or faster endurance gain (maybe even a certain percentage gain per hit) or some combination of two… but only while they’re using melee weapons. May not be the best solution, but it at least gives them more opportunity to minimize damage intake.

Agreed, I’m speaking of a flat Melee DPS increase with no potential compensatory loss in the name of balance.

Actually your comment Bruno, has given me an idea for a temporary “fix” to our (or at least my Melee woes). I haven’t really thought about stacking Life Steal sigils or anything! Depending on how much you could stack on to your gear, that could sufficiently reduce some from the “Risk” side of the equation for now. I still think that this issue, if it has any merit, will ultimately require some consideration from the Developers.

@ Mayam

Some of those need a little tweaking imo…. I think most of those life steal sigils and such are like +10 life per hit. Even the 6/6 Superior Rune of the Doylak, which gives a passive regen, is like 30 health per tick. These are meager to the point of being useless. I understand they don’t want us just tanking and healing through a fight, but you can at least make these abilities somewhat useful.

“Tolunart,

Really?? Do you play all FPS?”

I never play FPS, in Dragon Age, Neverwinter Nights, and other SPRPGs I always play spellcaster/ranged and kill more/die less than melee. It’s simply superior, and in any game that comes anywhere close to simulating real combat will play out in a similar way. It’s why bows and javelins to guns and missiles have been developed and why armies don’t run up to each other with knives and swords.

There is no solution, in fact in the real world the development of guns is why people don’t run around in suits of armor any more… maybe Caveman the MMO will be different.

Garenthal.1480:

It’s not as easy as people make it out to be, considering it relies heavily on situational awareness which…well, isn’t the typical MMO player’s strong point. I can do it, some of my friends can do it…but others I’ve seen are completely awful at it and show no signs of improving.

That’s the tank’s job so… oh, right. Don’t hold your breath.

Maybe this is why they gave the mobs horrible leashing and resetting issues ?; to discourage you from kiting?

Or is that just bad coding?

The only real solution to the ranged/melee thing is ammo. In oldschool Dungeons & Dragons a mage’s magic missile or fireball was pretty much a guaranteed kill but he could only cast a handful of spells then hide behind a wall of meatshields. Likewise you can hide in a tree and fire arrows at your enemies but when you run out of arrows you’re stuck in a tree and surrounded by a bunch of kittened off orcs.

In recent video games there are no such limits on ranged attacks, or if there are they are nowhere near so restrictive. In many games you can carry stacks of 100s of mana potions or 1000s of arrows and effectively never run out. In games like GW2 you don’t even have ammo and a lot of basic ranged attacks have no cooldown so you can just keep attacking, even when the enemy is standing in front of you. Even dropping a meteor swarm on yourself only kills enemies.

But nerf player’s ability to toss fireballs at everything or institute “friendly fire” rules that means you can’t stand in the middle of an explosion or fire a dozen arrows into a crowd of enemies/friends/neutrals without killing all three and the exact opposite happens… people who LIKE playing ranged characters protest and flood the message boards with angry “fix it or I quit” posts…

Kittened if you do, kittened if you don’t…

O dear Tolunart,

First off GW2 COMES NO WHERE NEAR A REAL LIFE SIMULATOR, hence the dragons, magic, walking salad warriors. In the real world yes ranged projectiles are better in a real life scanario, then again swords man and archers did exist in the same period, before projectile weapons became vastly superior. But your point there has no relevance what so ever.

And for you to claim other games melee is always weaker is so flawed and you given no evidence. i haven’t played the two games you listed but in dragon age a melee class is just fine? In darks souls melee is probably better than ranged. Just because you prefer range does not mean it is superior, or is a must within a game. The ranged in gw2 combat due to how easy kiting is and how much dmg mobs do make range the easier solo. however melee/higher dmg(often aoe) is sometimes needed in certains fights or quicker farming.

Like many cases of game imbalance, the answer can be found in RL. There is a reason why medieval archers were so fragile and did not engage in close combat; their weapons (bows) were not designed for defense. A sword (and shield perhaps?) however were often designed to block/parry blows as well as strike. Give melee weapons an innate chance to block an enemy’s attack while wielding them.

Simply giving melee weapons more damage kind of makes ranged options feel too limited. I feel the better answer is to give melee weapons the necessary utilities for wielders to survive the dangers of close comabt rather than making the primary focus of ranged weapons inferior. This way everyone wins. Ranged and melee DPS are equally validated and valuable, but melee has some bonus tools to compensate for the extra danger.

1. There is a speed decrease while in combat, this should only be applied when holding a ranged weapon as main hand.
2. Characters wielding a melee weapon should get 3 dodges instead of 2.

Wookie:

I am not an idiot. My experience is different from yours. I am sharing information and opionions. I don’t have anything to prove. That is all.

There are times to kite, kite stalling to wait for heal to get off CD, and times to stand there while the mob hits you in your own area damage fire =) Mob placement means that sometimes kiting just isn’t viable. Some mobs’ ranged abilities such as chaos storm are a godsend since you could magnetic shield it back to them (sadly, most of your damage vs. those particular risen will come from the risen itself).

In some places autorunning with the camera zoomed behind you is viable (so you could dodge pullbacks from behind), but mobs are so dense in Orr it’s not typically viable there. Sometimes you have to kite and CC champions so your friends could get a skillpoint while they take turns so you could get one.

TL;DR: kiting has many uses, yet kiting isn’t always viable or optimal. This of course written from an elementalist’s perspective.

tolunart.2095:

The only real solution to the ranged/melee thing is ammo. In oldschool Dungeons & Dragons a mage’s magic missile or fireball was pretty much a guaranteed kill but he could only cast a handful of spells then hide behind a wall of meatshields. Likewise you can hide in a tree and fire arrows at your enemies but when you run out of arrows you’re stuck in a tree and surrounded by a bunch of kittened off orcs.

In recent video games there are no such limits on ranged attacks, or if there are they are nowhere near so restrictive. In many games you can carry stacks of 100s of mana potions or 1000s of arrows and effectively never run out. In games like GW2 you don’t even have ammo and a lot of basic ranged attacks have no cooldown so you can just keep attacking, even when the enemy is standing in front of you. Even dropping a meteor swarm on yourself only kills enemies.

But nerf player’s ability to toss fireballs at everything or institute “friendly fire” rules that means you can’t stand in the middle of an explosion or fire a dozen arrows into a crowd of enemies/friends/neutrals without killing all three and the exact opposite happens… people who LIKE playing ranged characters protest and flood the message boards with angry “fix it or I quit” posts…

Kittened if you do, kittened if you don’t…

I believe this, to an extent, hits the nail on the head and is something I hadn’t really considered as well. The last game I really got into in a strictly solo aspect was Crysis (I know I know, I have since come to realize that the consensus of most “gamers” was that this game kittened kittens but personally I loved it and still play it sometimes). Looking back I think I had been babied a bit by more recent, particularly MMO, titles. I was downright shocked at how my main hindrance in the game was keeping bullets in my guns! I had grown so accustomed to just firing willy nilly until the mob was dead that actually making my shots count and conserving my ammo wasn’t even a concern for me in the slightest!

Maybe that is an aspect that they should consider instituting. Above all though I think it’s that there’s a general premise that the “reality” of these kinds of D&D games are assumed to be founded on. As far as Warriors goes that generally is, REALLY strong and essentially wear a car’s worth of metal on their backs for armor and, that’s where there damage (“Risk”) mitigation comes from. It’s also that strength that lets them swing a sword or mace like Mark McGwire with a bat and should make up the “bread and butter” of their damage. It’s also this insane amount of armor (and an assumed lack of “book learnin”) that prevents them sprinting and flipping across the battle field flinging 5 arrows into some ogre’s eye every 2 seconds or praying and gesticulating (or whatever the kitten a mage actually does) to rip a meteor out of galactic orbit and sling ‘Hiroshima’ across the battle field at the opponent. Each class has it’s basic archetype but I think that one alone illustrates why every class shouldn’t have the fall back of switching to range and essentially side stepping nearly all incoming damage.

Not saying they should but strict limits or any on range abilities, either physical or magical. Not a one size fits all, Least common denominator of one, specifically – everyone has Range fighting to fall back on and equalize the content’s encounters, there by “balancing” it. As I’ve already theorized, I’m sure this opens the door wide for a whole new and probably larger set of problems keeping PvP balance in check but I think it’s something that definitely needs looking into. It’s kinda of robbing me of the up close face smashing aspect I was picking my class for when I rolled a Warrior. Just like I’d want to see my monster back stabs from the shadows winning my fights as a thief, and I wouldn’t want to see other classes pulling the same trick either as Thief as well.

Traditional archers, when fielded could win battles when properly protected by infantry (talking medieval times here). However, once an opposing enemy got into melee range they were wiped out nearly instantly.

Sadly this doesn’t translate as well into a game because too many mage/archer style players complain when they are one-shotted (like reality). It is a simple problem that range attackers in that genre required large groups to defend them for their effectiveness to pay off.

As range and accuracy increased (guns), suddenly melee was pointless, as it died before it could reach the range weapon users, as did metal armor.

So the balance of ranged damage output vs. survivability is a pain to make everyone happy as there are many ways to approach it.

tolunart.2095:

The only real solution to the ranged/melee thing is ammo. In oldschool Dungeons & Dragons a mage’s magic missile or fireball was pretty much a guaranteed kill but he could only cast a handful of spells then hide behind a wall of meatshields. Likewise you can hide in a tree and fire arrows at your enemies but when you run out of arrows you’re stuck in a tree and surrounded by a bunch of kittened off orcs.

In recent video games there are no such limits on ranged attacks, or if there are they are nowhere near so restrictive. In many games you can carry stacks of 100s of mana potions or 1000s of arrows and effectively never run out. In games like GW2 you don’t even have ammo and a lot of basic ranged attacks have no cooldown so you can just keep attacking, even when the enemy is standing in front of you. Even dropping a meteor swarm on yourself only kills enemies.

But nerf player’s ability to toss fireballs at everything or institute “friendly fire” rules that means you can’t stand in the middle of an explosion or fire a dozen arrows into a crowd of enemies/friends/neutrals without killing all three and the exact opposite happens… people who LIKE playing ranged characters protest and flood the message boards with angry “fix it or I quit” posts…

Kittened if you do, kittened if you don’t…

I hear ya and that’s definitely a good point I hadn’t considered before now as compared to the D&D video games of old and the genre.

I think it’s also a point that as a Warrior, wearing the equivalent of a car’s weight on metal to protect me and be the primary mitigator of incoming damage (“Risk”) I shouldn’t have to fall back on ranged evasion tactics to gain the further mitigation of the Ranger. Also that strength required to walk around carrying that “car” should give me one monster swing with a melee weapon and be my bread and butter DPS. Likewise that pile of metal should even prevent me from sprinting and flipping around the battle field while burying 5 arrows in that ogre’s eye every 2 seconds like a Ranger.

In a way the Rangers and ranged classes are kind of getting cheated as well here. Not only do I get heavy armor and powerful melee swings but I also get the agile ranged evasion and hard hitting ranged attacks that you guys get as well. Of course I haven’t really played a Ranged class past level 15 so maybe you all do. That’s just homogenizing all the classes and calling it balance though.

(and I still, and have this entire thread, spoken pretty exclusively about solo PvE content; questing, grinding, farming, etc.)

Remember that the grandfather of MMOs, Dungeons & Dragons, was never intended to be PvP balanced – in fact low-level mages were intentionally weak and could not survive most situations if played alone. The purpose of the game was for a small group to work together, and protecting a near-useless wizard in the beginning paid off in mid-level when he can fireball approaching enemies and kill or severely weaken them before engaging in melee combat.

I came from games like Baldur’s Gate, where playing a mage required a party of various classes for support, to Neverwinter Nights, where playing a mage was challenging even with a melee type NPC henchman, to Rift where mages were expected to stand next to a warrior as an equal.

You cannot unring the bell, with these expectations you can’t reduce the effectiveness of ranged attacks to make melee more attractive without causing an outcry from people who are used to doing it the other way around. Look at what happens with something as basic as giving tank/healing role characteristics to every class…

tolunart.2095:

Remember that the grandfather of MMOs, Dungeons & Dragons, was never intended to be PvP balanced – in fact low-level mages were intentionally weak and could not survive most situations if played alone. The purpose of the game was for a small group to work together, and protecting a near-useless wizard in the beginning paid off in mid-level when he can fireball approaching enemies and kill or severely weaken them before engaging in melee combat.

I came from games like Baldur’s Gate, where playing a mage required a party of various classes for support, to Neverwinter Nights, where playing a mage was challenging even with a melee type NPC henchman, to Rift where mages were expected to stand next to a warrior as an equal.

You cannot unring the bell, with these expectations you can’t reduce the effectiveness of ranged attacks to make melee more attractive without causing an outcry from people who are used to doing it the other way around. Look at what happens with something as basic as giving tank/healing role characteristics to every class…

Also very true. I fell in love with computer games because of D&D ones that translated pretty well, even in the times of DOS and CGA graphics.

It’s always stood to reason, for me at least, that a magic user should avoid physical damage because their wearing the equivalent of pajamas. The Rangers to a lesser extent because they generally sport hardened leather. Thieves usually have a whole array of close quarters evasion techniques. Warriors though, there’s just no reason to bother humping all that gear other than to see the mob break his knuckles on your chest plate. I haven’t seen any good reason why these roles should change either. They provide for more mass appeal, in this generation of games as well.

Honestly, I kind of feel like a wus of a Warrior when I have to hang it up and go off trotting all circle like to finish a tough encounter – kinda feels like giving up and just sort of cheesing my way through the fight. I hope they look at this aspect and my thoughts are they will in time as more important bugs and oversights are handled. As it stands now, one could almost consider the ranged weapon their priority as, no matter your profession, that choice WILL win you encounters as apposed to a top of the line sword or something that’s still only as good as your ability to stand there and absorb damage. (I’m pretty much in greens armor wise though, maybe crafting a top flight set will be what changes it for me now at 80? Leveling in greens appropriate to my level left me leaning on range all the way through in clutch fights though.)

Really I just think that this aspect of the game needs some tweaking. Heavy armor should mean more to those who use it specifically and Ranged damage should mean less to those who don’t specialize it thus balancing it back in favor of the classic concepts of the professions. Of course this is all pure theory, and a really broad swipe at that. As I’ve noted, it appears this game is balanced for PvP which is admirable to those lovers of PvP (myself included) that picked up the game for that reason, and PvP balance is definitley more delicate to build and apply. Just as a mage shouldn’t get 40% flat damage reduction from a satin nighty I don’t expect to be cracking off 4k+ crits with my Rifle either though in a general sense, even in PvP.

I’m surprised I didn’t see notice of how poor the AI handles being kited.
Melee mobs in general seem to almost bug out when strafed against. My main, a thief, can round up 4 or 5 melee mobs (player races are usually the easiest to do this with; but any melee mobs work), circle strafe to the left and they all follow like lemmings (They seem to prioritize getting into position over fighting). An application of caltrops and Death Blossom gives a bleed + cripple so now they can’t catch me. Dodge back (more caltrops) and then reverse course, strafe to the right. They seem to bump into each other, not knowing what to do most of the time.

I can do similar on a low level warrior with a greatsword. It’s not as effective, I take a few more hits, but they drop faster.

Mobility in circular motions is key. The AI will do what I assume is out flank me… but, eh… yeah. It’s great damage mitigation as it simply wont fight back as often and fumbles about trying to get in front of me, behind me, or whatever.

I actually showed another player this once, and they said “GW1 had Benny Hill AI. GW2 got The Three Stooges.”

I know I’m not that good a player, so it can’t be just me that sees this as silly behavior… can it?

[Note: The bigger melee mobs do not have this behavior. The ones that singularly focus on destroying the player. Ettins, and Effigy for example: They just bee line to me while trying to smash me in the face rather than run around oddly.]

Melee takes a lot of different things happening at the same time to work properly, I have a Warrior and a Guardian and both have different advantages when it comes to melee toe-to-toe.
The warrior can be setup board and sword or two-hander for higher defense or damage, but the real way to stay alive is in the utility skills, signets seem to work better than banners when smashing solo, but get a group of ranged casters and AoE’rs behind you and then you have some seriously epic combos happening when you throw down some banners. Having debuff skills and signets works good with both 2hand and 1hand setups and banners are good for boss fights but remember to equip some shouts to get by invulnerable and use those AoE fields to heal and increase damage.

I love being in the fray, that’s why I love playing warrior. There are so many choices with the new skill system and weapon skills that the possibilities are pretty endless.

As far as kiting goes, you do have to watch you position in relation to mobs, your back is the most vulnerable and by all means needs to be mob free, if you see a warrior out in the game facing a mob of creatures and it’s swinging and smashing, kill the sneaky mob that is hitting him from behind first, that will help keep him alive longer. I don’t know how many times my camera gets out of line and some mob is killing me from behind while I’m face to face with a group of 3-4 there are 3-4 archers shooting me in the back. So make sure to move, dodge etc…

Haha, that’s my rant on warriors anyway.

<sigh> scroll down for the TL;DR. I wouldn’t read all this bull kitten either. Thanks

@WasAGuest, Another person has applied the flattened business end of a weighted device to the non pointy end of a fastning object! And “The Three Stooges” is even more brilliance LOL! You make a great point I hadn’t considered. Maybe the whole issue I’ve been harping on really is nothing more than the unintended side effect of the mobs attempting to fill that part of their AI priority list first and achieve position before getting down to business. As a rule even in strict melee I don’t just stand flat footed but attempt to strafe and circle and this alone, even when melee fighting, cuts down on incoming damage greatly, its when multiple mobs, as you’ve touched on, become involved that at melee range I just plain can’t evade enough incoming damage to always giving myself the winning edge and I find myself forced to fall back on range. Kiting several mobs is still more than doable as they jostle for position (as I now realize this is what they are doing from your post). Now that you’ve said it and I see it it makes total sense and it was plain as day the whole time. I’m still left with the bottom line of outgoing damage remaining higher than incoming. I’m still left with trying to herd them all into my melee weps cone of effect (which I seem to be far from a pro at) or drop back and kite. Excellent point though sir. The AI definitely seems to want to satisfy its positioning programming before moving on to focus on the actual attacking.

A HellionOfEvil, Sadly I can pretty much only exclusively speak about soloing in PvE. I’ve been in many organized groups but strictly only in PvP so far. I have yet to set foot in a dungeon. I have technically been in PvE groups but only for Dynamic Event zergings or Group Boss chaotic “everyone just unload your max DPS ASAP” type of groups. Honestly I’ve been avoiding dungeons kind of because I really want to go with a group that is on voice comm. and will take the time to analyze the content so we can learn and understand these new “non-Trinity” style mechanics. I’ve attempted a couple random PuG’s but they all just amounted to a sloppy mess of flinging our bodies at the mobs while face rolling and hoping for the best. All we got was frustration and hefty repair bills for those attempts. I even tried to mace and shield it or 2-hand hammer along with a good mix of banners (I seem to tend toward them more than shouts, at least in my early attempts there) and something resembling tanking and crowd control. For the groups I was in though I might as well have brought my warrior armed with bath salts and a broken bottle LOL.

As for solo kiting I agree, at least as one approaches the higher levels, that surrounding mob awareness is probably your biggest factor in a successful kiting. Jeebus! There seems to be a minimum of 3 mobs every square meter in Orr, an I may be low balling there! Still though, with that kind of density you have to consider unintended body pulls even in the strictest melee, let alone strafing and circling in just a melee diameter. I’m still left falling back on Ranged there too and, more often than I’d like to admit, popping “Shake It Off” and “Endure Pain” just to cut and run and haul kitten for the shore or something.

I think WasAGuest nailed down a very key point. The AI seems to value positioning almost above all else and Ranged or even just juking em in melee seems to keep em trying to satisfy that. Flat footed melee just hands it to em right off the bat but even bobbing and weaving leaves you more and more open the more adds you pick up. Tweaking and adjusting is probably more trouble than I could guess at or understand exactly what effects will come from messing with it. I think giving a Warrior more effective melee skills for damage mitigation as well as just flat out making Heavy Armor more uh… “armor-ey?” (you know what I mean) would be a clean and simple fix, or at least a solid step in the right direction. Maybe not make a Warrior’s ranged DPS and skills so darned easy and attractive to fall back to as well but then we’re dangerously close to the dreaded land of nerfs. Also, as I keep pointing out, there is always the delicate balance of PvP that should be a priority too (at least I.M.H.O.).

Elementalist: get the bomb kit, run around in circles, never get hit by the mobs and just kill them with “1” bombs dropped behind you. Ridiculous.

Edit: the only melee class that doesn’t need to dodge nonstop is the ranger. Get a bear (like everyone else and for good reason), have it go in first and draw aggro, then go in afterwards and beat away. Adds can be dealt with by having the bear attack them first so he draws aggro from all of them. It’s easy to melee if no one ever attacks you ROFL.

Good Lord. I’m sorry guys…

TL;DR:

_@WasAGuest, Excellent point and now that you point it out yes, it definitely appears the AI prioritizes position before actually attacking. Obviously why not only kiting but strafing and circling just in melee range so noticeably reduces incoming damage. The only issue that remains, as far as melee evasion at least, is this becomes less effective as you add more mobs as was also pointed out. Thank you for that observation. It was so obvious but I never just outright realized it until you put it in words here. A definite huge factor in tactical scheming.

@ HellionOfEvil, I can only really speak on solo PvE. All my organized grouping has been only in PvP. The odd Dynamic Event or Group Boss group has been nothing but a zerg really. The dungeon PuGs I’ve attempted pretty much turned into us slinging our bodies at mobs while face rolling. I tried too mace and shield, drop banners and be kinda “tanky” to make a group work but I may as well have brought my Warrior armed with Bath Salts and a broken beer bottle, lol!

I agree in so far as soloing in the higher level zones. Orr seems to pack 3 mobs per square meter, and that’s a low density area. The issue this presents to Ranged Kiters is only magnified that much more for the Melee “Kiter” though. At least keeping Range I have a good chance of hauling kitten by popping “Shake It Off” and “Endure Pain” then snatching up a banner if I dropped one and praying as I ran for the hills.

EnaiSiaion.8072:

Elementalist: get the bomb kit, run around in circles, never get hit by the mobs and just kill them with “1” bombs dropped behind you. Ridiculous.

Edit: the only melee class that doesn’t need to dodge nonstop is the ranger. Get a bear (like everyone else and for good reason), have it go in first and draw aggro, then go in afterwards and beat away. Adds can be dealt with by having the bear attack them first so he draws aggro from all of them. It’s easy to melee if no one ever attacks you ROFL.

Another excellent point Sir / Ma’am. In the game touting “no formal Trinity” they still included a Bear as rather “tanky” pet. As I’ve said, I dont have much of a ranger (lvl 15 I think she is), but anecdotally I have seen many a bear charge in, proceed to “tank” (as every bear in every other MMO for every other Hunter / Ranger / Circus Bear Act / whatever guy) and the Ranger just calmly sit back flat footed and plink away with their infinite supply of arrows. It also makes sense to me now why 75% of the Rangers (that’s a wild shot in the dark, unreliable, complete over exaggeration of a guess before anyone takes issue) have a bear out as their active pet too, especially in the higher level zones.

Hey can we go back and review the Warrior’s “non-Trinity”, “non-tanky”, “I’m just a DPSer like everyone else here” role and make him “non-tanky” like the Bear pet is “non-tanky”. Can I not fit into the classic Trinity that way?

I can live without a “Holy Hand Grenade” like the elementalist. That makes sense to me. I mean that poor guy is wearing pajamas to fight monsters in. He needs the cool points as well as the offense for a defense. If I could just not be a tank similar to how the bear is not a tank. I’d be stoked with just that!

i love my warrior. I can leap into a pack and lead that pack to another one for a mob beatdown and still kill them all. IMO sword/axe best combo for doing just that.

I used to do the whole range and kiting in the begining of my warriors life until i learned how to do more and get alot from traits and use the proper sigs. Now im a wrecking ball. Which is great because my female warrior’s name is breaking balls.

Only time’s i use my rifle is a single target while im running to an event or just moving through the zones and feel like killing things along the way. By the time i even get into melee range they are normaly dead from my rifle. Realy good to use vs them non friendly to melee boss fights.

tolunart.2095:

Killing enemies before they get close to you is generally > standing next to them while they beat you with a big stick. I can’t remember playing a game where the opposite is true.

For pvp, that idea is fine and preferable really.

In PVE, it’s really broken. There really isn’t a use for any class specification when the most effective way to handle PVE for 99% of the fights is to kite. I rolled a guardian in a whipering Exotic set (well balanced set) with exotic weapons of all types that I can use. I’ve tried all the different builds from Glass cannon to full tank to hybrid build and in all instances, the most effective playstyle was to kite for the majority of the fights.

That is to say melee isn’t useless, it’s just more situational than kiting is. To some people that is fine, but one does not play a heavy plate wearing tank and build him out to be a damage sponge only to have him kite mobs. There is a clear disconnect between class and playstyle in the current system. the only melee that I’m finding is somewhat suited for it is the Thief because of all the combat rolls he has tied with his weapon skills. Otherwise, there’s little difference in playstyle between ranger, warrior, guardian etc..

By in large, “tank” builds (or even just heavy armor builds) usually means you can survive 1 -3 more hits than if you were built any other way. In the case of elites+, it means you might survive 1 more hit…or not.

Kiting it is then. Jump in when there is an opening, sure, but the default is still to kite – hence melee is broadly, situational.

I’m so starved for melee combat that my guardian is now using a hammer because it allows me to attack, strafe kite and jump in again every 4 seconds. It’s melee sure, but meh… there’s a lot of kiting still.

Ounkeo, I’m picking up what your putting down there sir. That pretty much sums up how I’m feeling.

I’ve primarilly played with a W. I only occasionally kite when there is a red circle under me. I use signets for my utility skills especially the heal. I equip a Hammer with a rifle. I rarely have to dodge facing a couple of enemies my own level. The hammer does big damage interupts and KD’s. Just make sure your armor is good. I have defense and strength traits maxed.

The mechanics are different, but my guardian seems even more stout than my warrior. I’ve been able to kill a single enemy up to 5 levels above me. I’ve found the greatsword my favorite with a wand for (albeit slight) range.

Frankly I like to toe to toe it with my meleers or it seems pointless to me. I mind it less with non melee.

sixfeetunder.6508:

i love my warrior. I can leap into a pack and lead that pack to another one for a mob beatdown and still kill them all. IMO sword/axe best combo for doing just that.

I used to do the whole range and kiting in the begining of my warriors life until i learned how to do more and get alot from traits and use the proper sigs. Now im a wrecking ball. Which is great because my female warrior’s name is breaking balls.

Only time’s i use my rifle is a single target while im running to an event or just moving through the zones and feel like killing things along the way. By the time i even get into melee range they are normaly dead from my rifle. Realy good to use vs them non friendly to melee boss fights.

Every time I (or anyone really with an honest request for assistance) posts to speak of a weakness, or in this case what I consider an area “out of balance” with the class and not so much a weakness, it seems someone pops in to say the are a seething pile of unstoppable PWN and their experience couldn’t be anymore different. They are hacking through dozens of mobs like a Diabloesque Barbarian on more steroids than usual.

Now, I’m not doubting you at all here Sir or Ma’am, not even insinuating a bit of a stretching of the truth. It’s just that these types of completely antithetic postings always seem to lack specifics. Could you share your trait build maybe? What sigils you use? Is your gear all orange and yellow from sleepless nights grinding away or literal 100s of dollars of real world money spent. I’m not looking down on your accomplishment btw if that’s the case, more power to ya if your in your college days or something and have the youth to put in those marathon grinds or the cash to spend as it’s a legit mechanic in this game.

Seriously, I have nothing to go on but your claims so I can’t make a call one way or the other. If you do have it all figured out like that then please throw us a bone. Obviously we lack severely in ability if we’ve hit that far off the mark from your example of Warrior-ness! Help us for pity’s sake if no other reason! Please give us some specifics to test out if nothing else. Waiting in eager suspense; Thank You in advance!

To be clear we aren’t talking about your run of the mill couple of dime-a-dozen mobs. This is about multiple mob packs, vet packs, etc, etc. I’m really getting into repeating myself in every post here of something already posted. The situations of discussion are well detailed above.

Mayam.8976:

deriver.5381:

@Red Falcon – “Meleeing gets you a lot more DPS but higher risk, Ranged gets you lower DPS and less risk.
Seems fine to me.”

Unless……………….

…you are a warrior with a rifle. Then you do just as much dmg from ranged =)

… yeah, and that’s a Warrior with a Rifle too. I’d like to think a Ranger with that Rifle would do considerably more DPS with their skills and build toward it (I wouldn’t know from experience though). If that IS the case this only throws the DPS vs. Risk balance that much further out of whack.

If I pop Frenzy and Signet of Rage (with Endure pain too), then open with Rush into 100 Blades and top it with a 3 stack Adrenal strike I do some quick and massive burst damage that I couldn’t even come close to with a Ranged weapon. If I consider sustainable DPS though? The DPS vs. Risk balance flies right out the window in my humble opinion. I’m comparing a Rare Rifle to a Rare Great Sword, both level 80, with pretty similar baseline damage and stats by the way.

1) Stop using frenzy. It’s just not worth it. Maximum regeneration with maximum defense is a better way to go. Frenzy is hurting you over time. maintaining your health is much more important that quick kills.

2) work on exotic armor and weapons. Priory/vigil/ order of whispers sell stuff that will greatly enhance your play. Either that or pick something up at the TP.

3) it may sound counter-intuitive (with a W) but get armor that has bonuses that enhance the healing stat. I use the dwayna armor. I’m regenerating 300+ health a second with the healing sig.

4) Max your strength and defense traits. Strength is your primary trait. You need it high to melee. Forget about percision. You’ll absorb way less damage ranged. You can take your time with a rifle.

5) consider using a hammer, the interupts and knockdowns decrease the damage you recieve. If you are able to nullify half their attacks = you are taking half damage over time.

Finally, There are just some areas and enemies you can’t tank through. You will need damagers for these groups. (like risen that respawn uber quickly and over aggro) If this is what you are referring to, there is no easy answer.

deriver.5381:

Unless……………….

…you are a warrior with a rifle. Then you do just as much dmg from ranged =)

Rifle Warrior doesn’t deal remotely as much damage as a melee Warrior with 25 stacks of might spamming HB/WA/Axe autoattacks.

I just roll warrior with 30 tactics/arms sword+horn/greatsword and get that high crit with free might/fury and immobilize on cripple, using knight armor and berserker jewelry. When I’m not getting focused by the mob I sit there dealing loads of damage, otherwise I use the cripple/immobilize from my skills alongside the spin to win and dash/jump to escape.

I find that most non melee mobs do next to no damage.

Maybe this thread is becoming top heavy. Again, I don’t bust off frenzy on a whim. Generally that is one part of a stack for a PvP “God I really hope this kills this guy or I’m screwed” attack. I will hit Frenzy, along with a Shout, SoR, and Endure Pain to really let loose on a boss, maybe if resources are otherwise tapped and this guy has to just die. Considering the crazy damage that can be pumped out quick at the right times especially if built to maximize it is just, well it should go without saying.

Like I said I’ve tried all the builds and stuff. Not seeing any appreciable difference building for max defense I built for max DPS with a sharp eye to evade quickly. The mega defense Warrior you could hit auto-attack and then go get a drink / watch T.V / take a nap / whatever of some other games is not here in any form.

This is all does closely relate to the topic though that if I want to be _really_defense minded I’ll just whip out the Rifle and start to kite. 30 stacks in Def. and Vit. traits still don’t come close to that tactic for mitigating damage, that is to say not get hit at all. I bought these metal plates cuz I planned to get hit. At least hit a whole lot more than the dude in the T-shirt or the guy with the leather jacket that is. There in lies a big part of my issue.

Mayam.8976:

The mega defense Warrior you could hit auto-attack and then go get a drink / watch T.V / take a nap / whatever of some other games is not here in any form.

Mayam,

Perhaps, I am doing something vastly different than you. My W is very stout defense wise. I can even stand toe to toe with some verteans and hold my own without dodging. Short of granting me invulnerability, I don’t know how much more stout they can go.

You can absolutley do better ranged DPS by not taking damage (or taking very little) and kiting. I didn’t roll a W for this. There are DPS classes better suited for this. However, there are situations (like personal story) that tanking simply wil get you killed.