Guild Wars 2

Mirta.5029:

Leo G.4501:

Conncept.7638:

Block, fear, aegis, and reflection are not available to all classes.

Okay, name the profession that doesn’t have any of those things.

I’m not dismissing the OP entirely, but most of what is being argued is just beginner’s mistakes. Being chained CC’ed is a problem when you’re outmatched and that’s hardly a reason to put a cooldown on an effect that already only lasts a short time.

however if the effect has no cooldown potentially the enemy could decide to use that one and only attack stunning you into eternity. No cooldown for enemy abilities, no pattern and no diminishing returns at the same time is stupid.

1. Mobs don’t just decide to only use stunning attacks.

2. Mobs attack extremely slowly, like literally one attack every 1.5 seconds.

3. Not only is there over a second of time between their attacks, but their CC attacks are usually telegraphed with extra animation frames taking even more time.

4. CC only lasts a couple of seconds, likely not even enough time for them to hit you while you’re down.

5. If there is more than two mobs you’re facing capable of keeping you CC’ed for long periods of time, then you’re likely meant to be with a group while facing them.

Leo G.4501:

Raine.1394:

I’ve played MMO’s and various takes on the RPG for years. I understand the role of CC in games, how to deal with it, and why it is there. I love CC. What I haven’t encountered in my years of playing is a game imbalanced to the extent GW2 is in this regard. I’m on a server that previously was known for keeping the temples open. They are no longer open regularly and the failure rate is well over 90%. The problem is not excessive challenge. I know challenge and this is not it. I suppose that if we need gear we can guest on a miracle server. But, what we can’t do is enjoy a challenging encounter in Orr. Those have been made silly and removed from the game altogether.

And how many of those RPGs let you dodge to negate attacks completely?

Dodge was not a feature of any of them. But, again, dodge is not an infinite resource, but the major CC of the enemy mobs is effectively infinite—at least beyond the ability to dodge or employ any other CC breaker not on cool down. That is actually the problem.

Raine.1394:

I’ve played MMO’s and various takes on the RPG for years. I understand the role of CC in games, how to deal with it, and why it is there. I love CC. What I haven’t encountered in my years of playing is a game imbalanced to the extent GW2 is in this regard. I’m on a server that previously was known for keeping the temples open. They are no longer open regularly and the failure rate is well over 90%. The problem is not excessive challenge. I know challenge and this is not it. I suppose that if we need gear we can guest on a miracle server. But, what we can’t do is enjoy a challenging encounter in Orr. Those have been made silly and removed from the game altogether.

There is a very dramatic difference between the temple events and the normal mobs you encounter while running around in Orr. The temple events have become either tedious slogs or coordinated-group, open-world raids, but the CC/conditions applied by the regular mobs in Orr or elsewhere in the game are easily countered, avoided or endured. The only condition/CC in Orr that is over-done is the Melandru effect, and that is flat-out area denial unless you have an awful lot of regen.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Raine.1394:

I’ve played MMO’s and various takes on the RPG for years. I understand the role of CC in games, how to deal with it, and why it is there. I love CC. What I haven’t encountered in my years of playing is a game imbalanced to the extent GW2 is in this regard. I’m on a server that previously was known for keeping the temples open. They are no longer open regularly and the failure rate is well over 90%. The problem is not excessive challenge. I know challenge and this is not it. I suppose that if we need gear we can guest on a miracle server. But, what we can’t do is enjoy a challenging encounter in Orr. Those have been made silly and removed from the game altogether.

There is a very dramatic difference between the temple events and the normal mobs you encounter while running around in Orr. The temple events have become either tedious slogs or coordinated-group, open-world raids, but the CC/conditions applied by the regular mobs in Orr or elsewhere in the game are easily countered, avoided or endured. The only condition/CC in Orr that is over-done is the Melandru effect, and that is flat-out area denial unless you have an awful lot of regen.

That’s not correct. It’s both the temple events and pent/sheltl/jofast. It can happen in any DE except plinx it seems.

Leo G.4501:

Mirta.5029:

Leo G.4501:

Conncept.7638:

Block, fear, aegis, and reflection are not available to all classes.

Okay, name the profession that doesn’t have any of those things.

I’m not dismissing the OP entirely, but most of what is being argued is just beginner’s mistakes. Being chained CC’ed is a problem when you’re outmatched and that’s hardly a reason to put a cooldown on an effect that already only lasts a short time.

however if the effect has no cooldown potentially the enemy could decide to use that one and only attack stunning you into eternity. No cooldown for enemy abilities, no pattern and no diminishing returns at the same time is stupid.

1. Mobs don’t just decide to only use stunning attacks.

2. Mobs attack extremely slowly, like literally one attack every 1.5 seconds.

3. Not only is there over a second of time between their attacks, but their CC attacks are usually telegraphed with extra animation frames taking even more time.

4. CC only lasts a couple of seconds, likely not even enough time for them to hit you while you’re down.

5. If there is more than two mobs you’re facing capable of keeping you CC’ed for long periods of time, then you’re likely meant to be with a group while facing them.

Again, it’s not that CC lasts 2 seconds, it’s that it can be spammed. It effectively lasts until you’re dead in many scenarios. I sometimes wonder if all commentators have actually played the content under discussion.

Raine.1394:

Dodge was not a feature of any of them. But, again, dodge is not an infinite resource, but the major CC of the enemy mobs is effectively infinite—at least beyond the ability to dodge or employ any other CC breaker not on cool down. That is actually the problem.

Raine.1394:

Again, it’s not that CC lasts 2 seconds, it’s that it can be spammed. It effectively lasts until you’re dead in many scenarios. I sometimes wonder if all commentators have actually played the content under discussion.

Well, do you actually try to kill the mobs? How can it be infinite spammed CC when half the time mobs die before they can even use it?

Sometimes I wonder, if the people complaining about this actually play the content under discussion…I mean, content outside of Queensdale and actively participate…meaning killing the mobs and not standing there pressing 1. It’s not suppose to be easy to take on an army and yet if played right, you can…

Leo G.4501:

Raine.1394:

Dodge was not a feature of any of them. But, again, dodge is not an infinite resource, but the major CC of the enemy mobs is effectively infinite—at least beyond the ability to dodge or employ any other CC breaker not on cool down. That is actually the problem.

Raine.1394:

Again, it’s not that CC lasts 2 seconds, it’s that it can be spammed. It effectively lasts until you’re dead in many scenarios. I sometimes wonder if all commentators have actually played the content under discussion.

Well, do you actually try to kill the mobs? How can it be infinite spammed CC when half the time mobs die before they can even use it?

Sometimes I wonder, if the people complaining about this actually play the content under discussion…I mean, content outside of Queensdale and actively participate…meaning killing the mobs and not standing there pressing 1. It’s not suppose to be easy to take on an army and yet if played right, you can…

I’m talking about Orr and being pulled by groups of, what, 20 spiders successively (let’s say 3 times) and CC’d each time. That’s the problem. You absolutely can’t kill all the mobs that spawn at shelt before they spam CC; and, comments like that are why I suspect that some may not be venturing far outside of Queensdale in the game.

The problem is excessive major CC. Like the 30k hits from somewhere in the particle blur, spammed major CC by enemy mobs is not a player skill issue. These are both mechanics that negate skill-based play, not require it. Removing cheap mechanics is the first step toward rewarding and challenging end-game content.

Oh its one of the things I hate in MMOs. Knock downs, knock backs, pull backs. Just stop it. I didnt sign up to go freakin airsurfing through Orr.

I would rather more damage to avoid or things like that. Being knocked down, is just plain annoying. And annoying doesn’t make me want to spend $$ in the gem store It DOES, however, make me toss my mouse into the abyss.

Raine.1394:

The problem is excessive major CC. Like the 30k hits from somewhere in the particle blur, spammed major CC by enemy mobs is not a player skill issue. These are both mechanics that negate skill-based play, not require it. Removing cheap mechanics is the first step toward rewarding and challenging end-game content.

QFT. +1

The worst part of many knock-backs and knock downs and stuns in PvE for me is simply the length of time one knock-back can have you down for. Some will knock you back then leave you stationary having a little kip on the floor for a good 5 seconds if you don’t have a stun-break off cooldown.

Tyrannus Blade.3408:

The worst part of many knock-backs and knock downs and stuns in PvE for me is simply the length of time one knock-back can have you down for. Some will knock you back then leave you stationary having a little kip on the floor for a good 5 seconds if you don’t have a stun-break off cooldown.

Agreed. Your dude is knocked flat on his kitten lays there for a second to collect his thoughts(he’s obviously tired of this crap too), slowly stands up, brushes his clothing off, picks up his sword, cracks his neck,—..etc etc

Raine.1394:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Raine.1394:

I’ve played MMO’s and various takes on the RPG for years. I understand the role of CC in games, how to deal with it, and why it is there. I love CC. What I haven’t encountered in my years of playing is a game imbalanced to the extent GW2 is in this regard. I’m on a server that previously was known for keeping the temples open. They are no longer open regularly and the failure rate is well over 90%. The problem is not excessive challenge. I know challenge and this is not it. I suppose that if we need gear we can guest on a miracle server. But, what we can’t do is enjoy a challenging encounter in Orr. Those have been made silly and removed from the game altogether.

There is a very dramatic difference between the temple events and the normal mobs you encounter while running around in Orr. The temple events have become either tedious slogs or coordinated-group, open-world raids, but the CC/conditions applied by the regular mobs in Orr or elsewhere in the game are easily countered, avoided or endured. The only condition/CC in Orr that is over-done is the Melandru effect, and that is flat-out area denial unless you have an awful lot of regen.

That’s not correct. It’s both the temple events and pent/sheltl/jofast. It can happen in any DE except plinx it seems.

Actually, it is correct. You’re talking about event scaling in Orr. I’m talking about the normal, non-event mobs. Do you remember the OP’s issue?

Lilium.1509:

Is it just me or does everything in the game have a knock back?

I hope you’ll forgive me for not mentioning Pen/Shelt/Jo along with temples. On FC, I haven’t seen more than 3-5 plus myself at these events since April 30. The scaling seems fine with that few.

Raine.1394:

I’m talking about Orr and being pulled by groups of, what, 20 spiders successively (let’s say 3 times) and CC’d each time. That’s the problem. You absolutely can’t kill all the mobs that spawn at shelt before they spam CC; and, comments like that are why I suspect that some may not be venturing far outside of Queensdale in the game.

Have you actually fought the spiders? And not died?

If you have, you should know they only do that web pull attack rarely. Once they use it, likely they won’t get another chance because they’ll be killed. Unless you’re just running around them, waiting for them to die of fatigue, it’s highly unlikely those 20 spiders will actually do much attacking because their attacks are very very slow. Pretty much every spider attack is a 1.5sec wind up with a 1sec period between each attack.

The problem is excessive major CC. Like the 30k hits from somewhere in the particle blur, spammed major CC by enemy mobs is not a player skill issue. These are both mechanics that negate skill-based play, not require it. Removing cheap mechanics is the first step toward rewarding and challenging end-game content.

And if it hits for 30k damage, then it’s group content.

And you people complain that CC is bad and you’d rather just dodge big hits? That’s dumb, IMO. Because if those hits are big and you have to protect an NPC to accomplish an event and then that event scales with more people, the event becomes practically impossible to complete.

Perhaps until you guys begin to define what ‘cheap mechanics’ means will the discussion actually get somewhere…because all you’ve mentioned is ‘thakitten is annoying’ or ‘boring’ which aren’t objective points to balance the game around.

Leo G.4501:

And if it hits for 30k damage, then it’s group content.

And you people complain that CC is bad and you’d rather just dodge big hits? That’s dumb, IMO. Because if those hits are big and you have to protect an NPC to accomplish an event and then that event scales with more people, the event becomes practically impossible to complete.

Perhaps until you guys begin to define what ‘cheap mechanics’ means will the discussion actually get somewhere…because all you’ve mentioned is ‘thakitten is annoying’ or ‘boring’ which aren’t objective points to balance the game around.

yes, I would rather dodge massive damage. Maybe for once the content would be challenging instead of unfair. And if you’re talking about NPCs dying in one hit, they already do that, so no change would be made there.

Mirta.5029:

Leo G.4501:

And if it hits for 30k damage, then it’s group content.

And you people complain that CC is bad and you’d rather just dodge big hits? That’s dumb, IMO. Because if those hits are big and you have to protect an NPC to accomplish an event and then that event scales with more people, the event becomes practically impossible to complete.

Perhaps until you guys begin to define what ‘cheap mechanics’ means will the discussion actually get somewhere…because all you’ve mentioned is ‘thakitten is annoying’ or ‘boring’ which aren’t objective points to balance the game around.

yes, I would rather dodge massive damage. Maybe for once the content would be challenging instead of unfair. And if you’re talking about NPCs dying in one hit, they already do that, so no change would be made there.

Well at least we got to the root of the point: you don’t actually care about balance. Just your subjective view of what is and isn’t fair.

Having knockback/knockdown mechanic in game isn’t that bad if it is accompanied with diminishing return which sadly in case of GW2 is not. Creatures can lock players in stunlock forever like pre-BC rogues in WoW. Once you lie on the ground with your belly up or down and your stunbreaker in on CD and there are more than one enemy with cb/cd it is gg and there is nothing you can do about it. And even if you didn’t die or get downed you are still not in control of your character which is not fun.

For demonstration: look at attached picture below for 4 seconds and rate how big fun you had during those 4 seconds… now repeakitten 3 times.

Great…

Now for more accurate simulation of rapidly decreasing health of your character wait until you will have to go pee. Wait until your urge to pee will be so strong that you subconsciously cross your legs….. and now stare at attached picture another 10 seconds and rate how much fun you had.

Soo…are you guys going to issue an objective complaint about the mechanics of the game or just make sideways complaints about ‘fun’ and ‘fairness’?

You guys are talking about game balance and such which I find funny. Considering some of these knockdowns can have you down for 5 seconds yet when my warrior uses his knock down it is for a measly 2 seconds if even that. Also the cooldown on my skill is like 3 times longer than any enemy mob cooldown. Yet you say the combat system is all balanced with regards to this?

The problem is not that we get knocked downed or lose control of our character. The problem is the way that they have distributed mobs and the skills that they have and how they use them. For example you get something like a devourer which can knock you down. Not one “type” of devourer like you get when dealing with humanoids who all use different weapons thus they have different skills/combat mechanics.

So you get into areas with these types of mobs and if over run can get into the problem of continued loss of control of your character – NOT FUN. Also like some of you even agree most times you wont die or be at risk of dying (depending on build/class/player skill) so what then is even the point of it all besides just annoying the heck out of us?

All I ask for is more diversive skills to non humanoid mobs as well as placement of them with other mob types so combat is not so repetitive/annoying with these types of mobs when in their areas. Hopefully too this could ADD more of a challenge and exciting combat system/mechanic rather than just the “oh noes not an area with another knockdown mob – time to just run through or ignore them because they are so boring/time consuming to deal with” moment.

Leo G.4501:

Soo…are you guys going to issue an objective complaint about the mechanics of the game or just make sideways complaints about ‘fun’ and ‘fairness’?

Let me ask you a question:

Which of the 2 below would you find more fun/challenging?:

1 – Walking into an area where there is just one type of mob who has 1 skill that will make you lose control for a set period of time. You know what’s coming, how to deal with it and you know if you continue to fight this said mob it’s going to be the same exact thing every single fight unless confronted by more than one of them when it will be just an added spamfest instead.

2 – Walking into an area where you can see there is a mix of perhaps 2-3 different mobs which all have different skills which could make you lose control of your character for a set period of time. You know fighting just one on your own should be no problem but you are aware that each different fight may be slightly more challenging depending on what each mob brings to the fight so you have to be prepared for any single one of them. But what if you get into a fight with multiples of them? You have to be more strategic, more skillfull to take out first the most dangerous to you and then deal with the rest. You have to be fully contentrated in what you are doing and be slightly more reactive to the situation as it changes.

It is clear to me which would be more fun and challenging depending on the situations, level of mobs and player skill of course. But hey that’s just my opinion, perhaps some people just want less of a challenge/diversity. Perhaps they have found a simple way to ignore these mobs and what they bring to the table and thus don’t fear them anymore? Perhaps it is THEM who don’t want a more fun/challenging game?

Paulytnz.7619:

All I ask for is more diversive skills to non humanoid mobs as well as placement of them with other mob types so combat is not so repetitive/annoying with these types of mobs when in their areas. Hopefully too this could ADD more of a challenge and exciting combat system/mechanic rather than just the “oh noes not an area with another knockdown mob – time to just run through or ignore them because they are so boring/time consuming to deal with” moment.

Well what would you suggest it be changed to? So far, people mentioned more damaging attacks instead of control effects. Currently that’s already the case. Some mobs have control effects you want to dodge while others have high damage attacks you want to dodge.

If most of the control was thus replaced with high powered attacks that take huge chunks out of you, how would that affect the game balance currently? As is, there already are instances where wearing toughness isn’t going to matter much, a one shot will still one shot you…so you’re proposing expand this further into open world content so passive mitigation is less viable?

If not that, then what changes and to what mobs?

As for the differences between mob CC and our CC, it is annoying how theirs lasts so much longer than ours and that’s not even the half of it…doing zone events in Orr, there’s bramble that will stack bleed and cripple on you constantly along with earth elementals doing the same. I racked up over a minute of cripple from it all. Thankfully, I had Mending slotted otherwise I’d be perma hobbling around…even without Mending, I have the Restorative Strength trait coupled with Mending tends to remove around 4 conditions a pop but without those, I’d be pretty boned.

…what I was getting at is, mobs tend to be balanced differently otherwise I’d be getting 40+ sec of cripple on those Champions. It’s likely because content would be too easy if our conditions lasted as long as theirs can stack…it’s not really the case for CC but mobs tend to not use it as strategically as we can. Mobs have one or two hard hitting skills (unless they’re Champion) and we can spread out those hits by interrupting them. It’s not so much about making fights with mobs (as is said in other MMOs like CoH) into fighting statues, it’s about using CC as active defense to interrupt big hitters.

Improvements could definitely be made on group events though…

Leo G.4501:

Well what would you suggest it be changed to?

How about more varied attacks? It doesn’t make sense how pretty much every mob has a CC. Mobs and mob mechanics are supposed to be different. Difficult to avoid. Something that makes you learn. Not something that puts you out of combat until you’re dead.

Paulytnz.7619:

It is clear to me which would be more fun and challenging depending on the situations, level of mobs and player skill of course. But hey that’s just my opinion, perhaps some people just want less of a challenge/diversity. Perhaps they have found a simple way to ignore these mobs and what they bring to the table and thus don’t fear them anymore? Perhaps it is THEM who don’t want a more fun/challenging game?

That’s a strawman, I hope you realize.

How often do you face a group of mobs that only do one thing?

Even the lambasted spider example, those spiders do not simply spam spider pull…if they did, they’d practically be no threat as that attack hardly does any damage. The spiders will start with that. You counter it then lay into them before they ever get a chance to do it again.

Similarly, centaurs have a few that will knock you around but at the same time, they rush past you or lock themselves in a long animation downward attack that you can simply side step.

Or how about the Spectral bows with their bouncing stun/daze and immobilize? It’s a short effect but it’s meant to delay you so you stand in their hail of arrows to get cripple. If you counter/break it and they basically shoot at you for a while until they can do it again (if given the chance). But how many fights do you face only them? And where they only use stun/daze/immobilize?

Summary: your #1 is hardly realistic in the current game and arguably #2 is already present.

Mirta.5029:

Leo G.4501:

Well what would you suggest it be changed to?

How about more varied attacks? It doesn’t make sense how pretty much every mob has a CC. Mobs and mob mechanics are supposed to be different. Difficult to avoid. Something that makes you learn. Not something that puts you out of combat until you’re dead.

You’re still not making a suggestion…you just say ‘something else’.

And it’s arguable that mob attacks are suppose to be difficult to avoid. PvE isn’t PvP. If mob attacks were hard to avoid, how more frustrating would it be for players to dodge, a mechanic they are meant to learn as they play, yet multiple mobs make it impossible to do so because of how they aren’t synched?

And I’m still waiting for an example of ‘put out of combat until you’re dead’. Please list some past experiences, post some videos or comments from others. Something. CC is hardly unfair. Those Champion Wraiths? Now those are unfair. If you can’t interrupt it, you basically have to retreat until it’s done sucking life. There’s no ‘put out of combat’ period, he simply cannot be killed unless you stop him or else you’re killed.

Leo G.4501:

You’re still not making a suggestion…you just say ‘something else’.

And it’s arguable that mob attacks are suppose to be difficult to avoid. PvE isn’t PvP. If mob attacks were hard to avoid, how more frustrating would it be for players to dodge, a mechanic they are meant to learn as they play, yet multiple mobs make it impossible to do so because of how they aren’t synched?

And I’m still waiting for an example of ‘put out of combat until you’re dead’. Please list some past experiences, post some videos or comments from others. Something. CC is hardly unfair. Those Champion Wraiths? Now those are unfair. If you can’t interrupt it, you basically have to retreat until it’s done sucking life. There’s no ‘put out of combat’ period, he simply cannot be killed unless you stop him or else you’re killed.

you say that PVE isn’t PVP but at the same time in other posts you said that with DR on CC everyone would face roll. So pick one – should PVE be hard and frustrating (like it is with CC lockdowns) or should PVE be accessible by everyone?
How about you’re moving from one place to another in Orr, one mob pulls you, then another one pulls you, then another one knocks you down? How about getting trampled to death by Centaurs? Even trolls – if you weren’t good enough to avoid one circle and got hit, others will spam that aoe on you while you’re down preventing you from getting up.

Geez, if only I can record a video and upload it to youtube (youtube is blocked from where I am), I’d show you a run of me all around orr on my mes, guard and engie, and show you how easy it is. The fact that dying is not a big deal makes me wonder why people are still complaining about this. Probably the only valid complaint I saw was the one by Tyrannus Blade, about knockdowns having irregular times with different mobs (some knock you down for 2 sec, some much longer. they should be the same imo)

Leo G.4501:

And I’m still waiting for an example of ‘put out of combat until you’re dead’. Please list some past experiences, post some videos or comments from others. Something. CC is hardly unfair. Those Champion Wraiths? Now those are unfair. If you can’t interrupt it, you basically have to retreat until it’s done sucking life. There’s no ‘put out of combat’ period, he simply cannot be killed unless you stop him or else you’re killed.

Frankly, the CC’d until dead does happen, but is rare. As an example, At Lyssa, I left the center to run towards one of the seals, which was under attack. A Wizard tried its knock attack, which I dodged. This put me out of endurance. That meant when the artillery targeted me I was knocked. While still down (yeah, no stun-break up), artillery again, then artillery again. The last one knocked me over the edge and the poison killed me on the way down.

Also at Lyssa, I’ve been chain-pulled by being unluckily positioned when several Vet Risen Nobles with the symbol-teleport-pull arrived. I survived that one thanks to high toughness, and regen. Stability, had I had it, could have avoided either occurrence. However, all classes are not equal with regard to this buff. As a necro in both cases, I was SoL.

In my experience, these events are quite rare. Rare enough that I cannot remember another 3-knock/pull in 1500+ hours of play, though there might a 3-knock in the new AC.

I also don’t think the knocks are unfair. Overdone? Maybe. It does seem like an awful lot of mobs have one. Area over-saturation? Maybe. In eastern Ascalon, for example, there are basically three types of ogres, and two have knocks. One (Brutes) is a lot easier to dodge than the other (Hunters). Since there are more of these two types than the third type, most encounters there are going to feature knocks. More diversity in given areas, like that one, might have made for a more varied play experience. Throw in a Shaman with a fire attack, or a different type of hunter with a poison one.

penatbater.4710:

Probably the only valid complaint I saw was the one by Tyrannus Blade, about knockdowns having irregular times with different mobs (some knock you down for 2 sec, some much longer. they should be the same imo)

Some are just knocks (Ogre Hunter); others are knocks plus stuns (Risen Brute).

Mirta.5029:

you say that PVE isn’t PVP but at the same time in other posts you said that with DR on CC everyone would face roll. So pick one – should PVE be hard and frustrating (like it is with CC lockdowns) or should PVE be accessible by everyone?

Perhaps there is where you’re not understanding me then.

So answer me this:
Are mob attacks telegraphed enough? If not, which ones?

The reason there is CC at all is to interrupt. When you don’t have it, you basically get CoF1, where people just explode content at blinding speed. There has to be a balance. You don’t just make mobkitten harder, because it makes some objectives too difficult and it underminds passive mitigation. You don’t make mobs too tough otherwise they’re just boring sacks of HP (already a problem). You don’t give them just CC to perma lock people as that can be easily countered with a single mechanic.

You do a blend of things, which you seem to be under the illusion isn’t happening. Are you of the opinion that some mobs are only using CC? That they never spread out these effects? That they do not telegraph their attacks enough? Because I just don’t agree…I’ve been killing through Orr a lot lately, and occasionally stop by Southsun which has kitten ed annoying mobs in it…I’m not feeling perma lockdown…so what parts of the game are you playing?

How about you’re moving from one place to another in Orr, one mob pulls you, then another one pulls you, then another one knocks you down? How about getting trampled to death by Centaurs? Even trolls – if you weren’t good enough to avoid one circle and got hit, others will spam that aoe on you while you’re down preventing you from getting up.

This has happened to me at the beginning.

When you’ve seen the attack enough, you understand the timing. You watch as you pass them, they yell at you when they aggro then wind up their attack. You keep going and with internal timing, press dodge. They miss and you’re already way to far away from them for them to attempt to attack.

For trolls, they also telegraph that rock fall skill long before they use it and it’s always where you’re standing after he leaps up. You can stop moving while he does the leap and start moving just as the circle appears. That skill is so telegraphed, they’re usually unable to attack afterwards letting you run right next to them as you pass. Not only that, but their melee attack is also very slow, meaning they’ll probably turn toward you as you walk past them only to miss while you continue because they cannot move while they attack.

IndigoSundown.5419:

That’s actually a valid example. In the case of Lyssa, do you mean the spots where the chaos storms are? In those areas, it’s tough to get around because the storms pop randomly and they can daze/stun you. They also do damage and can apply conditions. Throw in mobs that also CC and it’s not a place you want to stroll through.

Also at Lyssa, I’ve been chain-pulled by being unluckily positioned when several Vet Risen Nobles with the symbol-teleport-pull arrived.

I don’t think the Nobles have a pull. They just teleport to you and attack/leap. It’s the axe wielding ones that will pull, IIRC.

I also don’t think the knocks are unfair. Overdone? Maybe. It does seem like an awful lot of mobs have one. Area over-saturation? Maybe. In eastern Ascalon, for example, there are basically three types of ogres, and two have knocks. One (Brutes) is a lot easier to dodge than the other (Hunters). Since there are more of these two types than the third type, most encounters there are going to feature knocks. More diversity in given areas, like that one, might have made for a more varied play experience. Throw in a Shaman with a fire attack, or a different type of hunter with a poison one.

Just commenting that that is an opinion I can agree with. Knock is very common. I wouldn’t be against altering some of the mobs’ attacks to add variety.

Leo G.4501:

That’s actually a valid example. In the case of Lyssa, do you mean the spots where the chaos storms are? In those areas, it’s tough to get around because the storms pop randomly and they can daze/stun you. They also do damage and can apply conditions. Throw in mobs that also CC and it’s not a place you want to stroll through.

No, the first example was just on the walkway between the Priestess area and the seal to the east. The knocks were from the catapults.

Leo G.4501:

I don’t think the Nobles have a pull. They just teleport to you and attack/leap. It’s the axe wielding ones that will pull, IIRC.

The normal nobles don’t. Best example I can think of is the Champion Risen Worshipper in King’s Passage (Malchor’s). It uses the symbol/port/pull-in mechanic. Risen Noble Vets do also. There’s one in Malchor’s west of the more northerly bridge across the central waterway. If traveling west, it’s down the hill to the right as you get past the Tar Elementals. The Champion has it on a shorter CD than the vets do.

The axe-wielders (or is it an anchor)… that’s the Putrifier- whose pull was replaced by a self immobilize in January — which has been fixed recently to immobilize its target.

so you bumped onto reef drakes or risen? lol

Leo G.4501:

This has happened to me at the beginning.

When you’ve seen the attack enough, you understand the timing. You watch as you pass them, they yell at you when they aggro then wind up their attack. You keep going and with internal timing, press dodge. They miss and you’re already way to far away from them for them to attempt to attack.

For trolls, they also telegraph that rock fall skill long before they use it and it’s always where you’re standing after he leaps up. You can stop moving while he does the leap and start moving just as the circle appears. That skill is so telegraphed, they’re usually unable to attack afterwards letting you run right next to them as you pass. Not only that, but their melee attack is also very slow, meaning they’ll probably turn toward you as you walk past them only to miss while you continue because they cannot move while they attack.

I have over 1000 hours ranked up, love to run dungeons and high level fractals, I cleared Orr 5 times and it still happens to me. You have 2 dodges. After that the 3rd one is free to pull you. I never said that Trolls are hard, but heavens forbid you miss 1 dodge. Also I hope that you will never have to run up the stairs leading to Arah without a lot of condition remover or speed ups (mesmer), because once one trebuchet hits you you’re as good as dead. Having in mind that mobs put cripple on you, you will get hit, after that there’s no standing up. All DR would prevent is getting stun locked to death. It wouldn’t disable CC.

Leo G.4501:

Raine.1394:

I’m talking about Orr and being pulled by groups of, what, 20 spiders successively (let’s say 3 times) and CC’d each time. That’s the problem. You absolutely can’t kill all the mobs that spawn at shelt before they spam CC; and, comments like that are why I suspect that some may not be venturing far outside of Queensdale in the game.

Have you actually fought the spiders? And not died?

If you have, you should know they only do that web pull attack rarely. Once they use it, likely they won’t get another chance because they’ll be killed. Unless you’re just running around them, waiting for them to die of fatigue, it’s highly unlikely those 20 spiders will actually do much attacking because their attacks are very very slow. Pretty much every spider attack is a 1.5sec wind up with a 1sec period between each attack.

The problem is excessive major CC. Like the 30k hits from somewhere in the particle blur, spammed major CC by enemy mobs is not a player skill issue. These are both mechanics that negate skill-based play, not require it. Removing cheap mechanics is the first step toward rewarding and challenging end-game content.

And if it hits for 30k damage, then it’s group content.

And you people complain that CC is bad and you’d rather just dodge big hits? That’s dumb, IMO. Because if those hits are big and you have to protect an NPC to accomplish an event and then that event scales with more people, the event becomes practically impossible to complete.

Perhaps until you guys begin to define what ‘cheap mechanics’ means will the discussion actually get somewhere…because all you’ve mentioned is ‘thakitten is annoying’ or ‘boring’ which aren’t objective points to balance the game around.

Yes, I have actually fought the spiders and that’s why I used them as examples. The problem is that they don’t use the pull/CC rarely and, as I described, I’ve been pulled/CC’d in rapid succession for 3 times. Given the content is Orr that means my stun breaker is already on cool down but I might be able to break a given stun in the chain. In terms of not dying, on my tanky warrior (I enjoy axe/shield gameplay) I almost never die except to the cheap shots. On a light or medium armor prof other than my necro death is a real possibility given the excessive CC.

The 30k hits were occurring regularly after the 4/30 patch and not in group content, i.e., those marked as a group event. The champ chicken’s shoot egg or the putrifier’s arcing shot both were in excess of the max health of almost any character. Why the mechanic was cheap is that, if there were, say, three champs up, you could be hit out of the particle blur with to warning such as an animation that would indicate thakitten was targeting you and attacking. IOW, your death penalty came from simply being in combat and in combat range of the mob. This is the opposite of skilled play where a post-mortem always reveals an error you performed which caused your death. It, like spammed CC, is cheap and is pretty much the opposite of challenging.

I’m fairly new to the game. 1 Month in it but i do have a lvl 80 ranger and tried some other classes. I have 12 years of mmo experience overall tho so i think i outta figure the mobs out by now.
The lower end mobs come with like 1 KB (KnockBack) or Stun. Mid range with KB and aoe. But the real problem started for me with high end mobs. They nearly all come with 1 KB 1 Stun and 1 Aoe. Even if i could dodge 1 and evade 1 and block 1 and use a skill for 1 i have no way of staying on my feet for long. Seems the hole game is based on nothing but endless stuns, fears, knockbacks and imobilazing effects. Challaning? as hell. Fun? Not in any way possible. Its turned the game to a big frustration for me. Seeing my character sitting on its rear or unable to move while 2-4-6 mobs easly kill me and i can’t even get a single heal between a new stun ruins ALL the fun.
I have no respect for Anet in this matter. They ruined gw1 in a similar way adding endless aoe’s , stuns and knockbacks. For extra fun all mobs revived themsevls making it extremly hard, but zero fun. Now ifell they did it again in gw2.. they totally miss the point of fun. There so dead set on having it uber impossible to enjoy as a single casual player. Sad thing really.. could have been a great game.. but i kinda like to be on my feet fighting and not on my rearend 75% of the fights.
Its time to move on for me..

i think the issue here is that when certain players are presented with a challenge, they refuse to evaluate their build/utilities and make proper adjustments. they prefer to just blame the mob/ai/skill/etc

1 month now into gw2 and im already super tired of lying on my rear end through every and all fights. Knockbacks in combination with endless aoe’s, stuns, imobilazing effects has ruined the game completely
They did it again.. same story in gw1. Was a super cool game till they just decided that from now on its gonna be so hard thats it impossible to enjoy as a casual player.
Is it chalnging to have 75% of your skills interupted while trying to fight? YES!
is ir fun to have 75% of your skills interupted while trying to fight? NO!
So while Anet ever change? NO!
To all you people who keeps saying this makes for a challanging game rather then easy mode.. I have no problem with a challange. I love hard mobs. I love having to think and use tactics before i throw myself into a fight. Planning ahead and then provaile reaping the rewards.
But in order to do this i kinda need to be able to fight.. Stay on my feet.
Here Anet has lost all creativity. Same on every mob in the game. Ultra boring knockbacks, aoe’s and stuns. Combat system is transparent from start.. lower mobs have 1 stun, mid range have 1 + aoe and high end mobs usually have 1 stun + aoe + imobil skill.
So obviosly when you get 2-5 mobs agro at the same time and they can use like 10 skills per second against you while you have endless cd’s on heals and other things.. you will die
I shall move along and find a game i can actually enjoy standing up..

Sorry for double posting.. my first post dident show up so i made a second.

penatbater.4710:

Even if you’re facing multiples of them, you still should be able to kite, dodge, and stunbreak their knockbacks/knockdowns.

Go aggro several reef drakes and fight them in open field combat.
Don’t forget to record the fight, this forum can use a bit of entertainment.

Pariah.8506:

penatbater.4710:

Even if you’re facing multiples of them, you still should be able to kite, dodge, and stunbreak their knockbacks/knockdowns.

Go aggro several reef drakes and fight them in open field combat.
Don’t forget to record the fight, this forum can use a bit of entertainment.

hahaaha yup please. probably the same like being hit by 5 stunlock warriors at the same time. people defending this are scarred that their knockback stunlock warriors are getting nerfed thats why they come defend the issue with the perma cc here.

Happyfool.8951:

i think the issue here is that when certain players are presented with a challenge, they refuse to evaluate their build/utilities and make proper adjustments. they prefer to just blame the mob/ai/skill/etc

That would make sense if it was feasible to do so. Granted, skills are easily changed. But traits and armor both require coin and npc’s. Are you saying players should procure a set of gear just for getting through mobs?

This, along with the combat speed nerf, is just plain annoying. Forcing players to literally crawl through certain areas, all because they don’t want you to be able to bypass anything, is silly.

A real solution would be to provide a few key, narrow corridors with which to travel through areas. Or at least give the mobs some real patrol paths to get around instead of the equidistant honeycomb pattern they seem to enjoy. It feels like the Battleship Gameboard with every single peg in except 1 or 2 for outposts.

Happyfool.8951:

i think the issue here is that when certain players are presented with a challenge, they refuse to evaluate their build/utilities and make proper adjustments. they prefer to just blame the mob/ai/skill/etc

Give me a build library that i can swap through at any point outside of combat, and i may reevaluate. And that stats are so attached to gear is not helping. To change up a build in a serious way i have to balance traits with weapons and utilities, and find armor and trinkets to match.

No way am i going through that every time i go from Queensdale to Orr.

Op

Interesting thread.

I started to become aware of the knock-back not too long ago, and to be honest, i would simply ignore them.

But

Recently, i have become more troubled by them at such rate into frustration.

Something must be done.

Seriously,

I Encourage Arena.net to seriously take this serious matter into serious consideration.

Seriously!!

to clarify first: I am not talking about those horribly broken megascaled events which are an entropic bowl of colours, blurs and numbers.

You have more than enough ways to counter knock back/knock down and to some extent pull attacks. Kite, dodge, interrupt, block, stability, stun break, whatever. Most of those attacks, as was already pointed out, are easily anticipated. And if you cannot take on a bunch of knockbacking monsters, well, maybe you were not supposed to attack that group of 5+ enemies singlehandedly, Leroy Jenkins style. Seems more like a L2P-scenario to me.

Algreg.3629:

to clarify first: I am not talking about those horribly broken megascaled events which are an entropic bowl of colours, blurs and numbers.

You have more than enough ways to counter knock back/knock down and to some extent pull attacks. Kite, dodge, interrupt, block, stability, stun break, whatever. Most of those attacks, as was already pointed out, are easily anticipated. And if you cannot take on a bunch of knockbacking monsters, well, maybe you were not supposed to attack that group of 5+ enemies singlehandedly, Leroy Jenkins style. Seems more like a L2P-scenario to me.

1. this is not about taking some treasure chest or similar high profile target. This is about every last kitten mob roaming the later open world zones. Meaning that you run into them when trying to get to what you’re actually trying to do (said high profile target). It becomes tiresome after a while.

2. More often than not, if you aggro one mob every other mob of the same kind (risen, svanir, flame legion and so on) within a certain distance is also aggroed. So you rarely have the luxury of taking on less than multiple mobs.

selan.8354:

Pariah.8506:

penatbater.4710:

Even if you’re facing multiples of them, you still should be able to kite, dodge, and stunbreak their knockbacks/knockdowns.

Go aggro several reef drakes and fight them in open field combat.
Don’t forget to record the fight, this forum can use a bit of entertainment.

hahaaha yup please. probably the same like being hit by 5 stunlock warriors at the same time. people defending this are scarred that their knockback stunlock warriors are getting nerfed thats why they come defend the issue with the perma cc here.

I hope you know how funny you make yourself sound

I often take breaks from the game and come back because…well, I guess I have ADHD or something. But the idea is, the game helps to harbor team cooperative play and tactics by not simply the quantity of enemies but also their attacks.

I think the game has a lot it can improve on, but it doesn’t need to dumb down the enemies, that’s for sure. If you can’t handle 5 X mobs at a time, then logically, you’re not suppose to fight 5 of X mobs at the same time by yourself. Get a team. Get a random passer to help you. Call a guild member.

If you don’t know how to run up the stairs of Arah on your mesmer or whatever, that’s kind of your problem. Either learn to run better (tip: it’s an important skill in dungeons) or fight your way up the stairs with a group.

Leo G.4501:

If you don’t know how to run up the stairs of Arah on your mesmer or whatever, that’s kind of your problem. Either learn to run better (tip: it’s an important skill in dungeons) or fight your way up the stairs with a group.

No it is not! It only seems that way because the only loot is from the bosses, and for the longest time the way to maximize loot pr unit time was to run past most mobs in the dungeons.

If Anet tied the end awards to the amount of carnage caused, the meta would shift to being able to do as much DPS as possible to as many mobs as possible. That is, if the end increase was high enough compared to the absolute minimum time one could get the carnage down to.

Speedrunners do not define the game, they break the game.

Leo G.4501:

the game helps to harbor team cooperative play and tactics

lolwut?

Leo G.4501:

I think the game has a lot it can improve on, but it doesn’t need to dumb down the enemies, that’s for sure.

Nobody said anything about dumbing them down. Look at the ‘GW1 had better Ai than GW2’ thread, in GW1 you had enemies that were university professors compared to their GW2 counterparts and didn’t have CC galore nor were they the massive damage sponges GW2 dungeon enemies are.

But it seems that as far as Anet is concerned it thinks that challenging diffiuculty is nothing else but the sum of a mob’kittenpoints and its amount of CC abilities.

Likely the AI come late in the development, once the overly complex boon/condition system had been put into place and they had maxed their server budget.

I keep hearing the same answer over and over.. learn how to play.
You seem to miss the point that many of us here are trying to make.
Its not all about weather i can survive the endless knockbacks from every living critter
in the gw world, nore about dying a lot.
Its very much about the fact that this is ! MEGA ANOYING !
So anoying infact that it has ruined my game experience.
And it should be a problem for Anet if people don’t like there game!

This is why we can’t have nice things. If you get trampled, it’s your fault. Really.

imagine if there was a way to dodge the knockbacks

if only