Guild Wars 2

Given that Guild Wars 2 has no diminishing returns and overly strong CC is at best a PvP balance concern, I’m curious why enemy knockdowns in PvE have to last a mode of 5 seconds (as you can see from the duration all skills are disabled on your bars). The last few moments of knockdown aren’t particularly interesting nor compelling as I don’t find it very engaging nor interactive to see how many white numbers I can accumulate in 3 seconds.

My knockdowns certainly don’t last for 5 seconds, for one. Why should monsters’ ? Secondly, while you’re KDed, you aren’t immune to other knockdowns, so it’s perfectly possible to get chain-KDed to death or chain knocked-off a cliff. Some knockdowns aren’t even avoidable without stability (which isn’t common outside warriors, guardians and elites. Ever since you took it off Juggernaut, I’d like to point out the only options an Engineer has are to try to use one of a few stupid elites which don’t work reactively or to glug an elixir and pray you get the relevant effect) – such as the knockdowns off picking up explosive shot which are extremely annoying.

In Guild Wars 2, the average length of a KD was 2 seconds, you couldn’t knock down a knocked-down target, and KD was still an extremely powerful interrupt mechanic which had to be used sparingly on monsters despite the fact you were roaming everywhere in 8 person parties. Why does it take so much longer to get up in Guild Wars 2? Did everyone suddenly get a lot fatter in the last few hundred years?

Lex Talionis.5396:

In Guild Wars 2, the average length of a KD was 2 seconds, you couldn’t knock down a knocked-down target, and KD was still an extremely powerful interrupt mechanic which had to be used sparingly on monsters despite the fact you were roaming everywhere in 8 person parties. Why does it take so much longer to get up in Guild Wars 2? Did everyone suddenly get a lot fatter in the last few hundred years?

I think you meant in Guild Wars, not Guild Wars 2

Knockdowns can be a pita, that’s for sure. However we also have a dodge mechanic now that should be used to help avoid those. Most PvE creatures have a pretty obvious tell before the big attacks… watch for those and you should be fine.

Way to neuter the literally only dangerous CC monsters have right now.
The KD duration is fine.

MrsAngelD.6971:

Lex Talionis.5396:

In Guild Wars 2, the average length of a KD was 2 seconds, you couldn’t knock down a knocked-down target, and KD was still an extremely powerful interrupt mechanic which had to be used sparingly on monsters despite the fact you were roaming everywhere in 8 person parties. Why does it take so much longer to get up in Guild Wars 2? Did everyone suddenly get a lot fatter in the last few hundred years?

I think you meant in Guild Wars, not Guild Wars 2

Yes, I do. Mental slip. But the point still stands – We’re talking about a mechanic that was so strong that almost every warrior with a KD used Stonefist Insignias. just to get it from 2 seconds to 3 seconds, 4 second KDs were extremely powerful, and 5 and higher were almost unheard of outside of special PvE encounters based around them.

I don’t really see KD being any less strong in GW2, so why should chain-KD in PvE or KDs longer than 3 seconds be allowed to exist? They’re not fun at all.

As I’ve already said, the problem with Knockdown as a mechanic is that they’re either allowed to chain or they’re obnoxiously long. Centaur KDs (2-3 seconds) are fine. Enemy bandit Steal KD/KBs (5 seconds which 3 of them chain onto you with an instant cast which makes it difficult to dodge) are not. Not all KDs have a charge-up, and you can’t dodge many chain-kd attempts simply because the invincibility time on dodge runs out before you can dodge again. Ballistas are a good example of this.

Try that : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break

It should be called a Knockdown Stun. Everytime I get hit I think ah well, time for my toon to have a little nap.

I can get up from lying down quicker with my hands tied behind my back than my toons can from standing up. Granted when I do it I haven’t been whacked on the head with a hammer

stof.9341:

Try that : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break

This isn’t a PvP concern. It’s a PvE one, where chain-KD happens more often than you can prevent it. One example – any long range stacked ballista/mortar effects that kb you halfway across the screen and will chain nicely into other enemy attacks. The ballista will fire at you at least 3-4 more times before your stun break comes off its CD, not to mention there’s vulnerability time inbetween dodging and some enemies don’t even give you the politeness of having a tell before their 5 second KD (the bandit steal abilities in Kessex are a good example).

Chain KD isn’t interactive and it isn’t fun.

VOLKON.1290:

Knockdowns can be a pita, that’s for sure. However we also have a dodge mechanic now that should be used to help avoid those. Most PvE creatures have a pretty obvious tell before the big attacks… watch for those and you should be fine.

Unless that creature/boss is nothing but a pure ball of light due to the amount of people attacking it.

Lex Talionis.5396:

stof.9341:

Try that : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break

This isn’t a PvP concern. It’s a PvE one, where chainstunning happens more often than you can prevent it.

I know some chain stunning situations are annoying. Like half the difficult boss fights in this game are difficult in a “annoying and unfair” way. But still you can still dodge most of these. You can stun break and dodge at the same time to avoid this.

Stun break skills aren’t a bad idea in PvE in fights where you expect to have a use for them.

stof.9341:

Try that : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break

That list makes me laugh. 2 abilities for a Ranger vs. 4+ for every other class. LOL @ 6 for a Thief.

The ball of light and visibility is a valid concern – one of the more annoying 5 second KDs in the game is the bomb skill from engineers who have a bad habit of placing it inside their character models or obscured by the PC’s huge furry charr butt, for example. Luckily, that one isn’t usually very dangerous.

I just don’t find that chain knockdown adds much to the game other than frustration – especially in situations like the Charr Fractal if all the ballistae decide to focus fire you instead of splitting their efforts (luckily, that KD is relatively short. Unluckily, it chains, and is usually fatal for non-heavy armour thanks to monsters).

I also don’t think it’s particularly good design to have a situation in which 1 hit from an ettin = death when fighting 2 of them because of chained KDs (a situation where your stamina will already be low from chain dodging). It’s quite preventable and ettins aren’t exactly the most difficult of monsters – but mistakes or latency happen, it’s a frustrating situation, and you may as well argue that we should all run around with 1 hp since we should be able to dodge every attack in the game.

Ultimately, I don’t think KD is a serious problem that cripples the game, but I do think it’s quite annoying and adds very little as it stands right now. That is all I wanted to say on the topic, and other people are perfectly entitled to voice how well-balanced and fun they think the KD mechanics in PvE in GW2 are if they disagree.

There are lots of stun/KD skills, as well as dodge. They’re annoying, yes, but they add a level of difficulty in later levels. You should be moving and dodging frequently or using skills that avoid cc completely. Chain knockdowns are frustrating, though, but I try to avoid getting crowded by several mobs at once when I’m soloing.

krojack.4920:

stof.9341:

Try that : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break

That list makes me laugh. 2 abilities for a Ranger vs. 4+ for every other class. LOL @ 6 for a Thief.

I assume that’s because Thieves are meant to be up close and dirty with daggers/swords, whereas Rangers are meant to be primarily ranged and out of the way of most CC stuff. Of course, moot point when you’re a solo ranger!

douceline.2741:

krojack.4920:

stof.9341:

Try that : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break

That list makes me laugh. 2 abilities for a Ranger vs. 4+ for every other class. LOL @ 6 for a Thief.

I assume that’s because Thieves are meant to be up close and dirty with daggers/swords, whereas Rangers are meant to be primarily ranged and out of the way of most CC stuff. Of course, moot point when you’re a solo ranger!

Also when a Rangers best DPS weapon is a 1-handed sword that locks you in place with it’s animation preventing quick dodging or just moving around a little. Also range attacks from a bow will miss a target that simply steps left and right. The further away the easier for the arrows to miss you. You don’t even have to dodge, just strafe left and right. Arrows won’t stay locked on the target and follow it.

Shadow return and shadow step are the same skill, and I’m not sure if anybody really uses it since its essentially just the sword 2 skill with longer ranged, but a 50 second cooldown because of it.

Not every class has the exact same tools – How come nobody else has a 15 second water combo field with a 30 second CD?

stof.9341:

Try that : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stability

Additional assistance.

Whenever anyone raises this issue the same tired old responses about dodging, stability and situational awareness always get wheeled out.

But it’s not as simple as that because far too many mobs in the game have knockdowns which cannot be dodged, interupted, predicted, observed or avoided.

Yes there are some mobs which do telegraph their knockdown. But there are lots which don’t. Some mobs knock you down without any obvious signal or animation. Some knock you down at the start of the animation, not at the end (try dodging that). Some knock you down even if you move behind the mob (situational awareness, pah).

Also, lots of mobs have ‘undocumented’ (i.e. not mentioned on the tooltip) knockdowns which seem to often happen instantly and without warning. Many mobs have knockdowns / knockbacks which are inappropriate for the mob type and leave you scratching your head and asking “how”.

In short, knockdown / knockback is over-used in this game and seems to be liberally thrown into the game in an artificial attempt to make the gameplay more ‘challenging’ when in reality all it does is make the gameplay more tedious. Knockdown and causing players to lose control of their characters should be something which is done for good reason, not as a constantly reoccuring game mechanic.

Bumping because this is highly relevant and as far as i have seen nothing has been done about it, monsters still chain knockdown and after the stability nerf it’s only gotten worse.

Knock down mechanics are fine as they are, either dodge or attack those mobs at range.

Any with tells are fine, ones without tells that are completely unpredictable are not.

Cernow.3974:

Whenever anyone raises this issue the same tired old responses about dodging, stability and situational awareness always get wheeled out.

But it’s not as simple as that because far too many mobs in the game have knockdowns which cannot be dodged, interupted, predicted, observed or avoided.

Yes there are some mobs which do telegraph their knockdown. But there are lots which don’t. Some mobs knock you down without any obvious signal or animation. Some knock you down at the start of the animation, not at the end (try dodging that). Some knock you down even if you move behind the mob (situational awareness, pah).

Also, lots of mobs have ‘undocumented’ (i.e. not mentioned on the tooltip) knockdowns which seem to often happen instantly and without warning. Many mobs have knockdowns / knockbacks which are inappropriate for the mob type and leave you scratching your head and asking “how”.

In short, knockdown / knockback is over-used in this game and seems to be liberally thrown into the game in an artificial attempt to make the gameplay more ‘challenging’ when in reality all it does is make the gameplay more tedious. Knockdown and causing players to lose control of their characters should be something which is done for good reason, not as a constantly reoccuring game mechanic.

100% this. Last paragraph especially. The same goes for one-hit KOs.

But then I have to put my game design hat on and ask “What can be done to add challenge to combat if those options are limited or removed?” That question doesn’t have easy answers.

Lex Talionis.5396:

Given that Guild Wars 2 has no diminishing returns and overly strong CC is at best a PvP balance concern, I’m curious why enemy knockdowns in PvE have to last a mode of 5 seconds (as you can see from the duration all skills are disabled on your bars). The last few moments of knockdown aren’t particularly interesting nor compelling as I don’t find it very engaging nor interactive to see how many white numbers I can accumulate in 3 seconds.

My knockdowns certainly don’t last for 5 seconds, for one. Why should monsters’ ? Secondly, while you’re KDed, you aren’t immune to other knockdowns, so it’s perfectly possible to get chain-KDed to death or chain knocked-off a cliff. Some knockdowns aren’t even avoidable without stability (which isn’t common outside warriors, guardians and elites. Ever since you took it off Juggernaut, I’d like to point out the only options an Engineer has are to try to use one of a few stupid elites which don’t work reactively or to glug an elixir and pray you get the relevant effect) – such as the knockdowns off picking up explosive shot which are extremely annoying.

In Guild Wars 2, the average length of a KD was 2 seconds, you couldn’t knock down a knocked-down target, and KD was still an extremely powerful interrupt mechanic which had to be used sparingly on monsters despite the fact you were roaming everywhere in 8 person parties. Why does it take so much longer to get up in Guild Wars 2? Did everyone suddenly get a lot fatter in the last few hundred years?

The reason why KDs last so long in this game is because otherwise they would be nearly useless. Mobs in this game “think” every 2 seconds and attack even slower. In other words, a KD of 2 seconds would simply mean a character getting knocked down would have enough time to get up and run away before the mob can hit a second time. So KDs would be useless for mobs in solo fights or when very few mobs are involved.

Yes those extra long KDs can be deadly when there are multiple mobs around hitting the same player, but I think you are overreacting with that “5 second KD”, the only attack that can knock you down for an extensive period of time are catapults (like those of centaurs or risen) most of the other KDs barely last enough to take a second hit. And those catapults deal nearly zero damage and are very very predictable.

http://gw2dungeons.net/Search#orrian+gorilla

Some mobs do have excessive KD’s. Spammable 7s KDs to be precise. If you dont have a stunbreak equipped you will not be able to get up once a group of orrian gorillas catches you. Its really annoying because its just slightly too excessive.

Heaven forbid you actually have to use a skill other than good ole #1 or use your dodge in PvE.

When are people going to learn how to play the game instead of QQing about how certain mechanics are wrong just because they don’t like them?

So I heard you guys liked Elite Inquest Technicians.

In the original GW, mob groups had real thought put into them. They consisted of a mix that corresponded to a mix of the character classes in the game. Some mixes were more challenging than others, especially when the devs started putting approximations of player meta builds on the mob groups. This variety led to different challenges due to the variety in what mobs brought to the table.

In GW2, mob groups will often feature many of the same mobs. Thus, groups will often present the same challenge multiple times. Groups of mobs that all use the same KD is one such situation.

All that said, I’m not in favor of removing KD, or shortening the stun duration associated with some KD skills. Why? Counter play is more interesting than no counter play. I’d rather lose the occasional fight because I didn’t know or choose to slot a stun break than never need the stun break in PvE. Mobs have such abilities because they have 2-3 moves, total, and knowing which of their moves to mitigate and which you can afford to take can make combat more interesting than it would be without the need to pay attention sometimes.

I wouldn’t mind more variety in mob groups. The Krait revamp is a decent example of this, with Slavers, Hypnos, Nimross and Damoss each bringing something different to the table. Mord mobs also bring different things to a fight, and — like Krait — tend to appear in varied groups, something that could be applied more often to Risen, who can appear in groups that contain many of the same.

Lex Talionis.5396:

Given that Guild Wars 2 has no diminishing returns and overly strong CC is at best a PvP balance concern, I’m curious why enemy knockdowns in PvE have to last a mode of 5 seconds (as you can see from the duration all skills are disabled on your bars). The last few moments of knockdown aren’t particularly interesting nor compelling as I don’t find it very engaging nor interactive to see how many white numbers I can accumulate in 3 seconds.

My knockdowns certainly don’t last for 5 seconds, for one. Why should monsters’ ? Secondly, while you’re KDed, you aren’t immune to other knockdowns, so it’s perfectly possible to get chain-KDed to death or chain knocked-off a cliff. Some knockdowns aren’t even avoidable without stability (which isn’t common outside warriors, guardians and elites. Ever since you took it off Juggernaut, I’d like to point out the only options an Engineer has are to try to use one of a few stupid elites which don’t work reactively or to glug an elixir and pray you get the relevant effect) – such as the knockdowns off picking up explosive shot which are extremely annoying.

In Guild Wars 2, the average length of a KD was 2 seconds, you couldn’t knock down a knocked-down target, and KD was still an extremely powerful interrupt mechanic which had to be used sparingly on monsters despite the fact you were roaming everywhere in 8 person parties. Why does it take so much longer to get up in Guild Wars 2? Did everyone suddenly get a lot fatter in the last few hundred years?

I love gw2 combat, but have always hated the spammy CC’s in the game and the fact that they can be spammed on you multiple times simultaneously or consecutively. Every enemy pleb has them and it’s that that annoys me the most. That lvl of CC’s should be reserved for bosses not standard enemies. You learn to live with it, but its never been enjoyable nor fun and never will. At least not for me.

And OP, i totally agree, they last last way too long, especially when u’ve been knocked down and was about to get up, then something else knocks you back again even b4 you found your footings. Not only that, but the enemies keep attacking you whilst on the ground. It’s not challenging, it’s hideously annoying. I mean what’s so challenging of constantly disabling your character, while their face is being smashed?

Tiger Ashante.1792:

And OP, i totally agree, they last last way too long, especially when u’ve been knocked down and was about to get up, then something else knocks you back again even b4 you found your footings. Not only that, but the enemies keep attacking you whilst on the ground. It’s not challenging, it’s hideously annoying. I mean what’s so challenging of constantly disabling your character, while their face is being smashed?

Why wouldn’t you use skills to counter these mechanics when you know you will run into them? That just sounds like poor gameplay on your part.

IndigoSundown.5419:

In the original GW, mob groups had real thought put into them. They consisted of a mix that corresponded to a mix of the character classes in the game. Some mixes were more challenging than others, especially when the devs started putting approximations of player meta builds on the mob groups. This variety led to different challenges due to the variety in what mobs brought to the table.

In GW2, mob groups will often feature many of the same mobs. Thus, groups will often present the same challenge multiple times. Groups of mobs that all use the same KD is one such situation.

All that said, I’m not in favor of removing KD, or shortening the stun duration associated with some KD skills. Why? Counter play is more interesting than no counter play. I’d rather lose the occasional fight because I didn’t know or choose to slot a stun break than never need the stun break in PvE. Mobs have such abilities because they have 2-3 moves, total, and knowing which of their moves to mitigate and which you can afford to take can make combat more interesting than it would be without the need to pay attention sometimes.

I wouldn’t mind more variety in mob groups. The Krait revamp is a decent example of this, with Slavers, Hypnos, Nimross and Damoss each bringing something different to the table. Mord mobs also bring different things to a fight, and — like Krait — tend to appear in varied groups, something that could be applied more often to Risen, who can appear in groups that contain many of the same.

The problem is not mobs having CC. The problem is mobs having spammable CC. Your stunbreak becomes mostly useless unless it comes with stability and that is not the case with all stunbreaks or even all classes. With the new stability mechanic it may not be all that useful even if it does come with stability.

This wasn’t as big of an issue in GW1 since mobs used mostly the same skills(although there were monster only skills as well) as players so they obeyed the same cooldowns.

Khisanth.2948:

IndigoSundown.5419:

In the original GW, mob groups had real thought put into them. They consisted of a mix that corresponded to a mix of the character classes in the game. Some mixes were more challenging than others, especially when the devs started putting approximations of player meta builds on the mob groups. This variety led to different challenges due to the variety in what mobs brought to the table.

In GW2, mob groups will often feature many of the same mobs. Thus, groups will often present the same challenge multiple times. Groups of mobs that all use the same KD is one such situation.

All that said, I’m not in favor of removing KD, or shortening the stun duration associated with some KD skills. Why? Counter play is more interesting than no counter play. I’d rather lose the occasional fight because I didn’t know or choose to slot a stun break than never need the stun break in PvE. Mobs have such abilities because they have 2-3 moves, total, and knowing which of their moves to mitigate and which you can afford to take can make combat more interesting than it would be without the need to pay attention sometimes.

I wouldn’t mind more variety in mob groups. The Krait revamp is a decent example of this, with Slavers, Hypnos, Nimross and Damoss each bringing something different to the table. Mord mobs also bring different things to a fight, and — like Krait — tend to appear in varied groups, something that could be applied more often to Risen, who can appear in groups that contain many of the same.

The problem is not mobs having CC. The problem is mobs having spammable CC. Your stunbreak becomes mostly useless unless it comes with stability and that is not the case with all stunbreaks or even all classes. With the new stability mechanic it may not be all that useful even if it does come with stability.

This wasn’t as big of an issue in GW1 since mobs used mostly the same skills(although there were monster only skills as well) as players so they obeyed the same cooldowns.

Out of curiosity, what mobs “spam” CC? Most mobs that have such skills use them once, then die. The exceptions that I can think of are groups of the same mob that stagger their CC and Champs (and some vets) that live long enough that their having 3 moves that cycle over and over can be an issue. One such that bugs me is the Vet Risen Wizard that applies Weakness with most hits, making a mockery of counter play.

If you have trouble dodging KDs, then perhaps you need to equip a utility skill that will break stun?

If you have multiple stun breaks and dodges and are still having trouble avoiding KDs. Then I really feel it is a L2P issue. As much as I hate to be someone who says that.

I have 10 level 80 characters and in all my time I’ve never felt that PvE knockdowns were ever an issue. Never even registered.

5 sec kd? Gooood:>

The point is to teach you that cc aren’t to be ignored and you should take care and have your stunbreaks, stability and learn to DOOOOOOOOOOODGEEEEE!

Since in pvp ppl hit fast and in pve mobs attack at a slow rate, the cc on mobs is longer to make it a threat enough for you to start caring and take countermesures.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Khisanth.2948:

IndigoSundown.5419:

In the original GW, mob groups had real thought put into them. They consisted of a mix that corresponded to a mix of the character classes in the game. Some mixes were more challenging than others, especially when the devs started putting approximations of player meta builds on the mob groups. This variety led to different challenges due to the variety in what mobs brought to the table.

In GW2, mob groups will often feature many of the same mobs. Thus, groups will often present the same challenge multiple times. Groups of mobs that all use the same KD is one such situation.

All that said, I’m not in favor of removing KD, or shortening the stun duration associated with some KD skills. Why? Counter play is more interesting than no counter play. I’d rather lose the occasional fight because I didn’t know or choose to slot a stun break than never need the stun break in PvE. Mobs have such abilities because they have 2-3 moves, total, and knowing which of their moves to mitigate and which you can afford to take can make combat more interesting than it would be without the need to pay attention sometimes.

I wouldn’t mind more variety in mob groups. The Krait revamp is a decent example of this, with Slavers, Hypnos, Nimross and Damoss each bringing something different to the table. Mord mobs also bring different things to a fight, and — like Krait — tend to appear in varied groups, something that could be applied more often to Risen, who can appear in groups that contain many of the same.

The problem is not mobs having CC. The problem is mobs having spammable CC. Your stunbreak becomes mostly useless unless it comes with stability and that is not the case with all stunbreaks or even all classes. With the new stability mechanic it may not be all that useful even if it does come with stability.

This wasn’t as big of an issue in GW1 since mobs used mostly the same skills(although there were monster only skills as well) as players so they obeyed the same cooldowns.

Out of curiosity, what mobs “spam” CC? Most mobs that have such skills use them once, then die. The exceptions that I can think of are groups of the same mob that stagger their CC and Champs (and some vets) that live long enough that their having 3 moves that cycle over and over can be an issue. One such that bugs me is the Vet Risen Wizard that applies Weakness with most hits, making a mockery of counter play.

Orrian gorillas. They have one 7 second knockdown on a 10 second cooldown. And another 7 second knockdown with no cooldown. If you are fighting one on one you will probably get CC’d again right after the KD runs out. So you have to be fast. But Orrian gorillas come in packs. So if you get caught its pretty much over.

spoj.9672:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Khisanth.2948:

IndigoSundown.5419:

In the original GW, mob groups had real thought put into them. They consisted of a mix that corresponded to a mix of the character classes in the game. Some mixes were more challenging than others, especially when the devs started putting approximations of player meta builds on the mob groups. This variety led to different challenges due to the variety in what mobs brought to the table.

In GW2, mob groups will often feature many of the same mobs. Thus, groups will often present the same challenge multiple times. Groups of mobs that all use the same KD is one such situation.

All that said, I’m not in favor of removing KD, or shortening the stun duration associated with some KD skills. Why? Counter play is more interesting than no counter play. I’d rather lose the occasional fight because I didn’t know or choose to slot a stun break than never need the stun break in PvE. Mobs have such abilities because they have 2-3 moves, total, and knowing which of their moves to mitigate and which you can afford to take can make combat more interesting than it would be without the need to pay attention sometimes.

I wouldn’t mind more variety in mob groups. The Krait revamp is a decent example of this, with Slavers, Hypnos, Nimross and Damoss each bringing something different to the table. Mord mobs also bring different things to a fight, and — like Krait — tend to appear in varied groups, something that could be applied more often to Risen, who can appear in groups that contain many of the same.

The problem is not mobs having CC. The problem is mobs having spammable CC. Your stunbreak becomes mostly useless unless it comes with stability and that is not the case with all stunbreaks or even all classes. With the new stability mechanic it may not be all that useful even if it does come with stability.

This wasn’t as big of an issue in GW1 since mobs used mostly the same skills(although there were monster only skills as well) as players so they obeyed the same cooldowns.

Out of curiosity, what mobs “spam” CC? Most mobs that have such skills use them once, then die. The exceptions that I can think of are groups of the same mob that stagger their CC and Champs (and some vets) that live long enough that their having 3 moves that cycle over and over can be an issue. One such that bugs me is the Vet Risen Wizard that applies Weakness with most hits, making a mockery of counter play.

Orrian gorillas. They have one 7 second knockdown on a 10 second cooldown. And another 7 second knockdown with no cooldown. If you are fighting one on one you will probably get CC’d again right after the KD runs out. So you have to be fast. But Orrian gorillas come in packs. So if you get caught its pretty much over.

Black Powder <3

So one mob that can chain CC players is suddenly reason to nerf CCs in the entire game? I doubt the OP was only talking about those Orrian Gorillas, but there aren’t many other spammable CCs in the entire game so I guess he should explain which mobs are causing him all this trouble.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Out of curiosity, what mobs “spam” CC? Most mobs that have such skills use them once, then die. The exceptions that I can think of are groups of the same mob that stagger their CC and Champs (and some vets) that live long enough that their having 3 moves that cycle over and over can be an issue. One such that bugs me is the Vet Risen Wizard that applies Weakness with most hits, making a mockery of counter play.

Have you met my friend the Inquest Technician?

I agree that getting chain knocked down by a group of catapults is annoying. But let’s be real here: if you’re just talking about solo PvE, hard CC is the most threatening thing they have most of the time. You can usually see them coming from a mile away; if you see a Risen Brute charge up a hammer swing and you don’t dodge or block, you deserve to be put on your kitten for a few seconds. There’s no need to remove the remaining challenge from what is already an easy encounter. And if you’re talking about group PvE, then you’ll actually be paying attention to your utility skills, in which case you should have stun breaks ready for this sort of thing.

This entire game is designed around long duration CC and massive attacks with telegraphs (some of which arent as obvious as they should be) and dodges/blocks/ect. Some people like it and some dont, but it doesnt seem like anything is going to change so better get used to it.

Still, the only thing more annoying than getting hit with 3 5s kd’s in a row while your stunbreak is on a 16s cooldown are the forum warriors that always hop in to these kind of threads shouting “BUT U NOOB WHY DIDNT U JUST DODGE OR STABILITY THEN U DONT GET HIT L2P”.

Sins.4782:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Out of curiosity, what mobs “spam” CC? Most mobs that have such skills use them once, then die. The exceptions that I can think of are groups of the same mob that stagger their CC and Champs (and some vets) that live long enough that their having 3 moves that cycle over and over can be an issue. One such that bugs me is the Vet Risen Wizard that applies Weakness with most hits, making a mockery of counter play.

Have you met my friend the Inquest Technician?

Many hundreds of times. I get stunned sometimes if I’m watching other mobs, then I kill them. Otherwise, I just kill them.

krojack.4920:

stof.9341:

Try that : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break

That list makes me laugh. 2 abilities for a Ranger vs. 4+ for every other class. LOL @ 6 for a Thief.

You don’t read so good do you?

Rangers have 4 stunbreaks, 1 auto stunbreak, and long stability uptime.

Sube Dai.8496:

krojack.4920:

stof.9341:

Try that : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break

That list makes me laugh. 2 abilities for a Ranger vs. 4+ for every other class. LOL @ 6 for a Thief.

You don’t read so good do you?

Rangers have 4 stunbreaks, 1 auto stunbreak, and long stability uptime.

You don’t read so good do you?

That post was made 2 years ago, so obviously the list is WAY WAY different back then than it is today

Don’t forget that you can CC the mobs too to reduce their danger. Or block the attacks. or invuln through it. Pretty much anything other than taking the hit.

I feel like a lot of people don’t use stun breaks or even know what they are. My newbie friends had no idea they were a thing until I pointed them out.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Khisanth.2948:

IndigoSundown.5419:

In the original GW, mob groups had real thought put into them. They consisted of a mix that corresponded to a mix of the character classes in the game. Some mixes were more challenging than others, especially when the devs started putting approximations of player meta builds on the mob groups. This variety led to different challenges due to the variety in what mobs brought to the table.

In GW2, mob groups will often feature many of the same mobs. Thus, groups will often present the same challenge multiple times. Groups of mobs that all use the same KD is one such situation.

All that said, I’m not in favor of removing KD, or shortening the stun duration associated with some KD skills. Why? Counter play is more interesting than no counter play. I’d rather lose the occasional fight because I didn’t know or choose to slot a stun break than never need the stun break in PvE. Mobs have such abilities because they have 2-3 moves, total, and knowing which of their moves to mitigate and which you can afford to take can make combat more interesting than it would be without the need to pay attention sometimes.

I wouldn’t mind more variety in mob groups. The Krait revamp is a decent example of this, with Slavers, Hypnos, Nimross and Damoss each bringing something different to the table. Mord mobs also bring different things to a fight, and — like Krait — tend to appear in varied groups, something that could be applied more often to Risen, who can appear in groups that contain many of the same.

The problem is not mobs having CC. The problem is mobs having spammable CC. Your stunbreak becomes mostly useless unless it comes with stability and that is not the case with all stunbreaks or even all classes. With the new stability mechanic it may not be all that useful even if it does come with stability.

This wasn’t as big of an issue in GW1 since mobs used mostly the same skills(although there were monster only skills as well) as players so they obeyed the same cooldowns.

Out of curiosity, what mobs “spam” CC? Most mobs that have such skills use them once, then die. The exceptions that I can think of are groups of the same mob that stagger their CC and Champs (and some vets) that live long enough that their having 3 moves that cycle over and over can be an issue. One such that bugs me is the Vet Risen Wizard that applies Weakness with most hits, making a mockery of counter play.

Veteran pirate I was fighting yesterday at the cannon event for Taidha. It was like a /P thief except the daze lasted a lot longer. The spectral bows but these might just be multiples being chained and bouncing off of different people. War beasts. Summoned winds at Ulgoth. This champion hive defender I am fighting right now. The veteran karkas tend to do their roll very often as well. There are others but I am not going for an exhaustive list.

Ogres and Karka tend to apply weakness extremely frequently as well. The ogre one is basically a staff ele sitting in earth. Conditions are mostly unaffected except for things that apply condition on crit. Might mean it is okay.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Sins.4782:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Out of curiosity, what mobs “spam” CC? Most mobs that have such skills use them once, then die. The exceptions that I can think of are groups of the same mob that stagger their CC and Champs (and some vets) that live long enough that their having 3 moves that cycle over and over can be an issue. One such that bugs me is the Vet Risen Wizard that applies Weakness with most hits, making a mockery of counter play.

Have you met my friend the Inquest Technician?

Many hundreds of times. I get stunned sometimes if I’m watching other mobs, then I kill them. Otherwise, I just kill them.

I meant the ones from Arah, which use 30 second channels which stun you every half a second or so, and come in pairs with their friends the deadeyes which will oneshot you if you’re unable to dodge.

@ Khisanth
Thanks for the response. Sounds like there’s a few that use KD on short (or no) CD. I believe, though that this is an issue with regard to mobs having few options, using one over and over because that’s all they’ve got.

@ Sins
I’m not sure that a mob in what was (in the pre-high-level-FotM game) the toughest PvE content in the game is a good example, nor am I sure the OP is on about this particular mob.

General
I believe the issue of mob-used CC is a complicated one, exacerbated by the simplicity of mob write-ups. Mobs ought to provide some challenge. They ought to have attacks that it’s better for players to dodge, block, etc. and/or use utility skills like stun breaks. Otherwise, what’s the point in a game where defense is largely an active endeavor?

There are many ways to provide challenge:

1. bigger behind-the-scenes numbers (i.e., damage, defense, health)
2. hindrances (like CC)
3. mob numbers (one’s not a threat, but multiples can be)
4. sophisticated AI
5. speed (not only attack speed, but also smaller windows during which one can mitigate attacks
6. extraneous mechanics (boss phases, immunity to a type of damage, etc.)
7. other?

ANet seems to primarily use 1, 2 and 3 to generate challenge, with a heavy emphasis on 2. In one sense, it’s safer for them. CC doesn’t kill players, though it can be a contributing factor, especially in situations where #3 also applies.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I believe the issue of mob-used CC is a complicated one, exacerbated by the simplicity of mob write-ups. Mobs ought to provide some challenge. They ought to have attacks that it’s better for players to dodge, block, etc. and/or use utility skills like stun breaks. Otherwise, what’s the point in a game where defense is largely an active endeavor?

There are many ways to provide challenge:

1. bigger behind-the-scenes numbers (i.e., damage, defense, health)
2. hindrances (like CC)
3. mob numbers (one’s not a threat, but multiples can be)
4. sophisticated AI
5. speed (not only attack speed, but also smaller windows during which one can mitigate attacks
6. extraneous mechanics (boss phases, immunity to a type of damage, etc.)
7. other?

ANet seems to primarily use 1, 2 and 3 to generate challenge, with a heavy emphasis on 2. In one sense, it’s safer for them. CC doesn’t kill players, though it can be a contributing factor, especially in situations where #3 also applies.

Attack speed is one that’s come up before. If the monsters attacked a little more like players, that would keep things interesting. Including having combo chains. Combos could be set to 2 or 3 hits with the big impacts being on the end, so the players have to mitigate damage and decide which part needs to be dodged. Distance and range become more important, since simply backing away from a hit could mitigate instead of dodge-rolling, especially if monsters are as choppy in attacking as player transformations.

I don’t think the players expressing their annoyance want the CC removed, just toned down to a reasonable level. Not being able to control your character while having to watch the mobs ‘cheat’ (their KDs are excessively long compared to players, so it feels like they’re on a different set of rules) isn’t fun. Heck, running into those Ascalonian longbowmen is irritating enough, and their KB is the same as the Ranger attack. But, to point, hard-CC violates agency as a key principle of gaming.

So, as it is, increasing enemy attack speed is starting to look like a really good option for the game, for a lot of reasons. It forces players to deal with damage and balance their attributes, Confusion damage could revert from the PvE+33% change, hard CC abilities could be reduced in duration so enemies have time to actually make use of it.

Another fair option is to give enemies traits, similar to how players have them. Increased damage on chill or cripple would force players to manage softer CC by using cleanses without the lengthier cooldown times Stability or stun-breaks often have. Granted, we’re seeing more of that moving toward HoT, like Mordrem wolves that hit hard from behind and bosses that don’t take damage from a Poisoned character. This kind of design makes for more interesting counter-play than GW2’s apparent addiction to dodge-or-die mechanics.

Noob here, sorry.
Are dungeons considered PvE?
If they are… omg, Champ Cave Troll in AC. That guy needs… I don’t want to say nerfed. But… a different rotation. The KD on him is stupid (for lack of eloquence). Just plain stupid.

Some diminishing returns or non-chainable crowd control would be nice. Waiting for your condition cleanse to recharge while you’re just hit with more and more immobilise is very fun indeed.

You can only dodge and stun break so much. In most situations, this isn’t a problem; but it’s just a pain in others.

tovadaun.6304:

Noob here, sorry.
Are dungeons considered PvE?
If they are… omg, Champ Cave Troll in AC. That guy needs… I don’t want to say nerfed. But… a different rotation. The KD on him is stupid (for lack of eloquence). Just plain stupid.

PvP = Player versus Player
WvW = World versus World
PvE = Player versus Environment

So yes, dungeons are PvE. This is pretty standard across all mmos.