Guild Wars 2

John Widdin.9618:

Among all the kitten flinging, I’m not sure if anyone has pointed out, there’s sort of a soft trinity.

Bruiser, Dps, Support

One Bruiser, and one support makes a world of difference in ease of the dungeon. Along with proper combo field usage.

Except that these are not necessarily profession dependent. Any number of the professions could be the support or the “bruiser”. And that makes it a very different game.

Hell you can be any of those things from fight to fight, sometimes in the same dungeon.

I really do miss the team aspect of a trinity experience. I miss doing a good job tanking or healing and having others do their job well and combined we became something so much greater than any of us could individually. GW2 I find it feels much more like we are just a group of people all hitting the boss, which doesn’t have the team feel or the feeling of being much more when you work together.

And I also miss the trinity in PvP and WvW. I miss there being a group of healers that were the priority target. And having classes who’s job it was to kill them (usually the stealth classes) and having guards specifically there to make sure the healers were protected. It just added a dynamic I think this game lacks, because an organized group of people would know how to take out and CC the key targets, while unorganized groups did worse because they didn’t go after healers or would not protect their own support. It just made for a much more interesting dynamic than the WvW where you target someone in the zerg and make them die then pick grab the next random target, who is close or outside their raid. It also made it so there was less burst vs bunker system. For example a balanced class was easier to heal and keep up even if they did less dps, but burst classes were important to kill healers to let the other dps kill people.

Someone above mentioned stifling mesmer time warps to maximize damage, and I do think that is an aspect a lot of trinity games miss out on, making the dps have to work together. The healers and tanks usually have a lot to manage and but dps tend to be a bit easier more boring in my experience, not worrying as much what other people were doing.

Again this is all my opinion, obviously there are a people who like the no trinity system, even if I am not one of them. I also do not expect GW2 to change, and I don’t think it should, the same way I don’t think they should have made a gear treadmill, because that is not how this game was built.

But I will still play GW2 because it is the only game to do WvW properly since DAOC.

Oh, this thread again, I’ll say what i said last time…

From my experience trininty games allow for a ton of carrying through content. Most encounters success or failure is dictated by the tanks/healers whilst dps just affects the speed at which the encounter is completed. I played healer/tank roles in WoW and Rift a fair bit and always found it annoying getting critcised by guys whose only job it was was to not stand in the fire and cycle their dps rotation.

Gw2’s system is far more revealing of an individual player’s skill . There are no tanks to hide behind or healers to save your kitten, In nearly all cases blame stops at the player who went down. This makes it feel far more meritocratic for me, although for people used to only playing dps in trinity games it will be a bit trickier.

diabluz.2860:

In the long term the lack of the trinity makes instances and any other group play boring and shallow to say the least.

People aren’t forced to co operate and work together or strategize like in other mmo’s that we’ve all played in the past.

If you want people to continue playing this game for any length of time you need to bring back the trinity Anet.

Whatever, GW2 is just fine without the trinity system. Actually it forces you to work together more. However; you obviously pug too much… Since when can you get total strangers to listen to any strategic plans.. good luck… And there will be plenty of people still playing this game for years to come without the trinity system. Another thing I have to disagree with you that the trinity system forces co- operation.. It does not.. You just think it does because everyone is separated by a certain role.

Same post has shown up every week and still people won’t believe you when you say the game is dead and no one is playing because of a mechanism that is not part of the game. Strange how reality refuses to listen isn’t it.

Shootsfoot.9276:

And the lack of any real mechanics in boss fights.

Although they are trying to rectify that.

I’m willing to give them the benefit of time. Even WoW’s initial release was nothing amazing as far as boss mechanics go. (They barely existed). Even after the patch from 40-60. They didn’t really start doing much until Blackwing Lair came out.

So, given a little patience, I’m sure they’ll get it right eventually. Fractals are a step in the right direction mechanic wise.

Vayne.8563:

Except that these are not necessarily profession dependent. Any number of the professions could be the support or the “bruiser”. And that makes it a very different game.

Hell you can be any of those things from fight to fight, sometimes in the same dungeon.

Yup, but by no means is the trinity gone.

The removal of trinity sounded good on paper, but in practice they didn’t replace it with anything. We’re all DPS, and combo fields, heals, etc. are not powerful enough to feel fun or make much of a difference. I don’t like being DPS 24/7. In the end you are dodging and avoiding most damage, imo it’s not as active or reactive, at least it doesn’t feel as so.

In the beginning it was “play your way” and now it’s “play our way” (ANets way)

Where’s the freedom to choose? What is SO bad about variety in the way we play? In the end we’re all carbon copies with slightly different mechanics, and if you aren’t doing damage you are failing because the design of the game.

I see people saying why should ANet copy all other MMO’s, well, they certainly didn’t have a problem with bringing massive grind and vertical progression over.

In the end, we wait for ESO for true freedom, and if they manage to mess things up I have honestly given up on MMO’s for probably the rest of my days. So tired of not being able to play my way, I’ve always wanted the freedom of a single player RPG in an MMO but for some reason that I can’t fathom devs REFUSE to give it to us.

Until now (hopefully)

Trinity will not come to this game, it would take an enormous effort to rebuild characters and classes from scratch. Why do trinity addicts need to start a thread about this every week. All arguments have been exchanged many times over anyway. Yes, GW2 combat can be extremely boring, but that has quite different reasons than a lack of trinity – which would make the battles even more boring. And stop selling that concept as “strategy”. It is cookie cutter builds, rotating cookie cutter abilities in a cookie cutter order, all memorized from doing the same raid many times over. There is rarely strategy in the trinity approach, knowing what to do beforehand to counter rigid AI behaviour is simply memorizaiton, nothing else.

Algreg.3629:

Trinity will not come to this game, it would take an enormous effort to rebuild characters and classes from scratch. Why do trinity addicts need to start a thread about this every week. All arguments have been exchanged many times over anyway. Yes, GW2 combat can be extremely boring, but that has quite different reasons than a lack of trinity – which would make the battles even more boring. And stop selling that concept as “strategy”. It is cookie cutter builds, rotating cookie cutter abilities in a cookie cutter order, all memorized from doing the same raid many times over. There is rarely strategy in the trinity approach, knowing what to do beforehand to counter rigid AI behaviour is simply memorizaiton, nothing else.

You just explained the current state of GW2… no strategy.

The lack of trinity wouldn’t even bother me if I wasn’t pigeon holed into using 2 skills on my thief constantly and oh switch to shortbow for AoE to spam 1 button how exciting.

ANet didn’t just remove trinity, they removed ‘build wars’ which was what kept GW1 alive for so many years and still interesting to this day. They made these 2 major decisions without replacing them with anything of value.

Can you honestly tell me you’ll be enjoying your character in a few years with the same exact skills, same rotation, same everything? Hell I’m already bored of it… was bored on the first week. Then again, I DO come from GW1… a truly unique game.

Leablo.2651:

The other day I joined a Caudecus group on my Engi. The other party members were Ranger, Ele, Necro, and Mesmer. No heavies. Every battle was a struggle and we wiped often. But by the end we had it down – use summons to soak up aggro, and everybody kite like crazy. Strategic analysis of our group’s strengths and weaknesses combined with skillful play led to eventual success. Had GW2 been a trinity game, this would not be possible. Instead:

• I would not have been allowed in the group in the first place.
• The rest of the party would have been sitting in LFG.
• Each party member would have had a predetermined, fixed role to play, as determined by their class. They all work in a vacuum and assume everyone else does their expected job.

diabluz.2860:

In the long term the lack of the trinity makes instances and any other group play boring and shallow to say the least.

People aren’t forced to co operate and work together or strategize like in other mmo’s that we’ve all played in the past.

I don’t think those words mean what you think they mean. I realize casual players outnumber everyone else but can the rest of us please have this one game? You have every other MMO as it is.

You are being somewhat harsh to trintiy games (or at least some of them) in regard to their alleged limitations. For example some get around some of the issues you mentioned (for the most part) by letting classes fufil multiple roles, so multiple classes can tank/heal.

Secondly a lot of content (a lot of non-raid content especially) can be run in much the same way as you describe your GW2 dungeon, working around no warrior/guardian, I used to play LOTRO I did plenty of dungeons with either no real healer or no real tank, you work around it using CC, debuffs, etc taking turns to tank for a little bit.

But yes people calling for GW2 to change should simply go play one of the many other games that offer a more trinity like design.

@Rukia

I can understand you if you are coming from GW1, I didn’t play with it much, but I can accept if GW1 players doesn’t like GW2 – it’s kind of a different concept… (Btw, your last sentence could be said about any other MMO…)

But this topic is about the trinity, which is not a characteristic of GW1, but other MMOs like WoW. In my last 6 months of WoW, I couldn’t step into raids or even 5man instances, because it was so kittening boring. You just stand there and do your rotation. I’m not sure what people smoking saying that the trinity is more interesting than GW2s combat, since I felt physical pain in half an hour when I had to help out in a raid in my last WoW-months. The trinity is FREAKING boring… Especially compared to GW2, where you have to move and dodge a lot.

The trinity of tank, dps and healer classes is tried and tested. You could call it old but it works.

GW2 is a different game where they wanted to step away from that, specifically to avoid people being in LFG too long.

Although the theory of that is nice, the reality, at least for me, is that they didn’t succeed in replacing the trinity with something equal. I never asked for GW2 to go to the trinity but the lack of roles and the lack of transparency in a furthermore shallow combat system, doesn’t succceed in giving an in-depth experience of the various classes available in the game.

I applaud the attempt ANet made to replace the trinity as such (not that I am against the trinity myself), but I am not happy with the resulting reality. The combat system and classes are uninteresting to me and that’s mostly because they simplified everything too much and by taking the trinity out they reinforced that. Perhaps taking out the trinity started that.

There is an advantage in not having to look for healers or tanks, but there is a big disadvantage in the lack of role and class definition and a combat system that is based more on general skills like dodging and ressing than anything else.

Also the mix of a limited skill bar (10 slots) but MMO style cooldowns (minutes) does no good to it either. And I cannot escape the impression that the lack of trinity is at the foundation of all this, because it’s one thing to say “I don’t want this” but without a proper replacement, it doesn’t really get you anywhere.

Strayhand.8216:

@Rukia

I can understand you if you are coming from GW1, I didn’t play with it much, but I can accept if GW1 players doesn’t like GW2 – it’s kind of a different concept… (Btw, your last sentence could be said about any other MMO…)

But this topic is about the trinity, which is not a characteristic of GW1, but other MMOs like WoW. In my last 6 months of WoW, I couldn’t step into raids or even 5man instances, because it was so kittening boring. You just stand there and do your rotation. I’m not sure what people smoking saying that the trinity is more interesting than GW2s combat, since I felt physical pain in half an hour when I had to help out in a raid in my last WoW-months. The trinity is FREAKING boring… Especially compared to GW2, where you have to move and dodge a lot.

I actually agree with you, and it’s hard to explain but there is a difference between GW1 trinity and MMO’s like WoW. I didn’t enjoy the trinity in that game.

Movement was a very crucial part of combat in GW, you didn’t just stand there and do your rotation, in fact there was about as much movement as in GW2 just no dodge button, but you dodged projectiles by strafing. There was no typical tank because aggro was random for the most part, the thing I miss most is healers.

Interrupts were also a major role in GW1, one could say required for pvp and pve.

As a monk I couldn’t just stand there and wait for some tank to grab aggro or peel a player, I had to kite and heal at the same time all while swapping weapons constantly to not get caught without my shield up by an assassin so I can break his combo chain with shield bash or the likes. There just isn’t anything like it in any game I’ve played.

High expectations are truly a gamers downfall. My point is, trinity doesn’t have to be boring. It definitely depends on the game and how AI responds to your actions, and I simply can’t imagine pvp without a healer. I think it’s a horrible, terrible idea that there is insane burst in GW2 pvp without a counter other than lolbunker.

I knew it from the beginning that it would be a bad move for pvp, and look at spvp now… dead as a door nail with atrocious balance, and same meta going on since release.

Strayhand.8216:

But this topic is about the trinity, which is not a characteristic of GW1, but other MMOs like WoW. In my last 6 months of WoW, I couldn’t step into raids or even 5man instances, because it was so kittening boring. You just stand there and do your rotation. I’m not sure what people smoking saying that the trinity is more interesting than GW2s combat, since I felt physical pain in half an hour when I had to help out in a raid in my last WoW-months. The trinity is FREAKING boring… Especially compared to GW2, where you have to move and dodge a lot.

Because there are more games than WoW:

1 – In many other trinity based games you have to move more than WoW (Rift for instance), though obvioulsy not as much as you move in GW2. Then there is also PvP, which again requires much more movement in these sort of games than PvE.

2 – Not all games have mods like threat meters, healbots, boss mods, cooldown warnings, etc that bascially play the game for you like in WoW, so the more complex classes are not offset to an extent by mods. (this is a very good thig about GW2, no mods playing the game for you)

3 – Lastly not everyone plays a faceroll DPS in these games, which means the GW2 classes are relatively simple and have a lack of multitasking, much less need for awareness of your teammates than many support/healer classses in trinity games. For example in LOTRO I used to play a loremaster and in raids had to :

- Keep up stun immunity on tank(sometimes tank healer)
- Keep up numerous debuffs on multiple mobs.
- Often perma CC one, sometimes two mobs.
- Cleanse team mates.
- Off heal.
- Drain power from boss, and keep constantly aware of tank/healer & key support like captain of their power needs and feed them power.
- Deal with (CC, debuff, put pet on) rogue mobs that go after a DPS / healer
- Occasionally have to rez if healers/cappy out of rezzes
- Deal DPS, especially AOE DPS as the class had very good burst AOE.
- and whilst doing all that manage a pet.

The amount of multitasking / awarenesss / target switching is on a completely different level to GW2, dodging, and more movemtent does not make up that, nor does it make up for teh more simplistic class design (faceroll DPS types excepted)

Gehenna.3625:

The trinity of tank, dps and healer classes is tried and tested. You could call it old but it works.

GW2 is a different game where they wanted to step away from that, specifically to avoid people being in LFG too long.

Although the theory of that is nice, the reality, at least for me, is that they didn’t succeed in replacing the trinity with something equal. I never asked for GW2 to go to the trinity but the lack of roles and the lack of transparency in a furthermore shallow combat system, doesn’t succceed in giving an in-depth experience of the various classes available in the game.

I applaud the attempt ANet made to replace the trinity as such (not that I am against the trinity myself), but I am not happy with the resulting reality. The combat system and classes are uninteresting to me and that’s mostly because they simplified everything too much and by taking the trinity out they reinforced that. Perhaps taking out the trinity started that.

There is an advantage in not having to look for healers or tanks, but there is a big disadvantage in the lack of role and class definition and a combat system that is based more on general skills like dodging and ressing than anything else.

Also the mix of a limited skill bar (10 slots) but MMO style cooldowns (minutes) does no good to it either. And I cannot escape the impression that the lack of trinity is at the foundation of all this, because it’s one thing to say “I don’t want this” but without a proper replacement, it doesn’t really get you anywhere.

The trinity is tried and tested. But for everyone person who enjoys using it, there’s at least one person who doesn’t. It’s tried and tested and okay for a small percentage of people. Face it, most people didn’t love dungeons or raids in WoW, it was a specific crowd. Some of those guys liked it.

But I know a number of people who hated it, and only did it for the loot, or to help out their guild. It may be tried and tested, but that doesn’t mean universally loved. Even in this very thread we heard from a WoW raider who said it was kittening boring. So yeah, what does tried and tested mean?

It means it got into games. Not necessarily that the largest percentage of people find it fun. I was one of the guys who didn’t. I hated the trinity long before Guild Wars 2 was announced.

Even in this very thread we heard from a WoW raider who said it was kittening boring.

I was also a WoW raider (still am) and although I don’t enjoy the trinity there as much as I do in GW1, raids are pretty epic. I think the problem is gamers are becoming jaded to new and exciting content because they’ve seen the pinnacle of awesomeness.

For example, killing Illidan and the Lich King in BC/Wotlk were some of the funnest times I’ve ever experienced in gaming. The only 2 things that surpass that experience was 1) beating battle toads and 2) winning certain matches in GvG that gave you more of a adrenaline rush than downing that certain raid boss as the last person standing at 1% health (which I’ve done btw ^^) but I am at heart a pvper so.

The reason I say jaded is I don’t enjoy raids half as much as I used to. I’ve seen it all, and honestly don’t think Blizz can do anything to make it any more epic. There are limitations to the way their trinity works and mechanics of combat. I think this is true for all games, my solution to make it more enjoyable again personally would be to freshen the trinity up by allowing me to tank or heal on my rogue, assassin, thief, whatever.

I think this is the age of freedom in gaming, just look at ESO and (the sad attempt) of GW2. Devs are FINALLY realizing that people want to play their way, on their character. Why do I have to role a warrior to tank? Or a priest to heal? Let me do it on any character.

I think dropping the trinity was a mistake, it just needed a little more freedom imo.

Again, trinity can be different in games, it’s not all just tank and spank, stand there and dps/heal in every MMO.

Coming from a healing background, it’s nice to be in a game where people have to take responsibility for their own survival.

I still remember (not exactly the worst, but perhaps) the dumbest encounter I’ve had in WoW was with a paladin sporting the typical God-complex. Stood right in the cozy fire. Getting burnt away quicker than any Flash Heal could manage. Died. Asked why he didn’t get any heals. Asked for a resurrect. 90% through the resurrection, he releases…

Yeah. Like I really want to go back to that.

I love that that there is no trinity. It just make the game more fun and combat more dynamic.

And using WoW as some form of measuring tool of trinity success is flawed. The trinity is most likely not the reason so many play WoW, its more likely its because its the “pop” of MMOs while GW2 is the “heavy metal” of MMOs. WoW is filled with mainstream MMO elements while GW2 has mainstream elements but many specific elements that make it different and catering to a smaller crowd.

People have also spent several thousands of dollar on their WoW progression, so its likely they stay due to this.

diabluz.2860:

People aren’t forced to co operate and work together or strategize like in other mmo’s that we’ve all played in the past.

Good luck doing AC path 2 or CoF path 2 final bosses with no cooperation or strategy. I’m under the impression that anyone who says that you aren’t forced to work together or strategize has never stepped foot into a dungeon.

Graybes.8251:

diabluz.2860:

People aren’t forced to co operate and work together or strategize like in other mmo’s that we’ve all played in the past.

Good luck doing AC path 2 or CoF path 2 final bosses with no cooperation or strategy. I’m under the impression that anyone who says that you aren’t forced to work together or strategize has never stepped foot into a dungeon.

They are probably basing it off of the dynamic events through out the game, thinking that the dynamic events are often done with many people, so not requiring the trinity is shallow. What these people do not realize is that the dynamic events in this game are a replacement for traditional quests in other MMOs, and traditional quests in other MMOs are designed not to need a trinity to complete, in fact they are designed to be done solo (except for group quests which majority of the time don’t need a trinity either)

In this game, you enter dungeons and in a pug, and if everyone just does their own thing without any regard to anyone else, if they complete dungeon, they were probably more lucky then anything else.

Honestly, the dungeons in this game are more challenging for pugs then any dungeon in any other MMO. Trinity makes dungeons so much easier for pugs to do, because all they have to do is play out their script and they are good to go, not so much in GW2, eveyone actually had to pay attention what everybody else is doing.

diabluz.2860:

In the long term the lack of the trinity makes instances and any other group play boring and shallow to say the least.

People aren’t forced to co operate and work together or strategize like in other mmo’s that we’ve all played in the past.

If you want people to continue playing this game for any length of time you need to bring back the trinity Anet.

I went back to WoW and all I can say to this is you’re wrong. Trinity gameplay is every bit as boring and shallow.

Nothing about non-trinity gameplay inherently denies them from designing encounters that require strategizing or working together as a team.

Vayne.8563:

The trinity is tried and tested. But for everyone person who enjoys using it, there’s at least one person who doesn’t. It’s tried and tested and okay for a small percentage of people. Face it, most people didn’t love dungeons or raids in WoW, it was a specific crowd. Some of those guys liked it.

You made that up. There is no data behind that. In fact since WoW is still going strong with over 10 million subs and most other MMOs still have the trinity I would still say that the majority of players is enjoying the trinity system.

Vayne.8563:

But I know a number of people who hated it, and only did it for the loot, or to help out their guild. It may be tried and tested, but that doesn’t mean universally loved. Even in this very thread we heard from a WoW raider who said it was kittening boring. So yeah, what does tried and tested mean?

Again there is no data to support your claims. I can only go by the numbers and as long as people still mostly play games with the trinity, I can only conclude that people still enjoy it, as do I.

Vayne.8563:

It means it got into games. Not necessarily that the largest percentage of people find it fun. I was one of the guys who didn’t. I hated the trinity long before Guild Wars 2 was announced.

That’s fine. We can all feel the way we want. However, since the majority of players isn’t actually playing GW2, it cannot be concluded that they want what GW2 offers.

You see, it’s easy to hate something but if the alternative is not better or worse, then where does that leave the player?

My point is that each person can enjoy what they want, but for a lot of people GW2 is fine and for a lot of people it isn’t. A big issue is identified here. Not having a trinity has certain advantages but also has some major drawbacks. Then you have to make a choice for yourself in what is more important to you. I find the trinity system more interesting because it defines roles and classes better and therefore gives them purpose. This also translates into the combat system and I find GW2 lacking tremendously there as well.

So for me the end conclusion is simple: GW2 doesn’t offer me an enjoyable experience.

You have a different conclusion. The OP probably agrees more with me about this

When I started with GW2 I just noticed 2 big things:

1) It’s nothing like GW1, which I loved and played to death.
2) The lack of trinity and depth/transparency in the combat system bores me.

So I stopped playing. I just stop here from time to time to see how the game is doing but so far the discussions are more of the same. Just saying.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

The trinity is tried and tested. But for everyone person who enjoys using it, there’s at least one person who doesn’t. It’s tried and tested and okay for a small percentage of people. Face it, most people didn’t love dungeons or raids in WoW, it was a specific crowd. Some of those guys liked it.

You made that up. There is no data behind that. In fact since WoW is still going strong with over 10 million subs and most other MMOs still have the trinity I would still say that the majority of players is enjoying the trinity system.

Vayne.8563:

But I know a number of people who hated it, and only did it for the loot, or to help out their guild. It may be tried and tested, but that doesn’t mean universally loved. Even in this very thread we heard from a WoW raider who said it was kittening boring. So yeah, what does tried and tested mean?

Again there is no data to support your claims. I can only go by the numbers and as long as people still mostly play games with the trinity, I can only conclude that people still enjoy it, as do I.

Vayne.8563:

It means it got into games. Not necessarily that the largest percentage of people find it fun. I was one of the guys who didn’t. I hated the trinity long before Guild Wars 2 was announced.

That’s fine. We can all feel the way we want. However, since the majority of players isn’t actually playing GW2, it cannot be concluded that they want what GW2 offers.

You see, it’s easy to hate something but if the alternative is not better or worse, then where does that leave the player?

My point is that each person can enjoy what they want, but for a lot of people GW2 is fine and for a lot of people it isn’t. A big issue is identified here. Not having a trinity has certain advantages but also has some major drawbacks. Then you have to make a choice for yourself in what is more important to you. I find the trinity system more interesting because it defines roles and classes better and therefore gives them purpose. This also translates into the combat system and I find GW2 lacking tremendously there as well.

So for me the end conclusion is simple: GW2 doesn’t offer me an enjoyable experience.

You have a different conclusion. The OP probably agrees more with me about this

When I started with GW2 I just noticed 2 big things:

1) It’s nothing like GW1, which I loved and played to death.
2) The lack of trinity and depth/transparency in the combat system bores me.

So I stopped playing. I just stop here from time to time to see how the game is doing but so far the discussions are more of the same. Just saying.

Actually I didn’t make it up. Years ago, there were polls about the number of people who actually raided and the number of people who enjoyed raiding. It was a much smaller number than you’d like to believe. Those polls aren’t fact, but I detect a trend.

There are, truly, people who do like raiding, but I don’t think they represent near 50% of the gaming population. Dungeon runners, same thing.

Anyone who’s played any MMO knows that many many many people solo. Do you really think those who solo love the trinity? Take the soloers out of that ten million,. the PvPers, who don’t like PVe at all, the people who just enjoy the social aspect, and you’ll find that only a small percentage of people like raiding and a bunch of people who do raid and run dungeons ONLY do it for the rewards….not because they like it or find it fun. The same is true in Guild Wars 2 of course and the same was true in Guild Wars 1. Most people didn’t like dungeons, but there was a small, hard core dedicated percentage who did.

Let’s call it 50%. It’s not that high, but let’s call it that. So 50% of the people like dungeons or raids. Then you ask, how many of those like the trinity, because not all do. As we’ve seen many raiders in this very thread don’t. My son was a raider in WoW, both actually. One of them likes it, and one of them hates it.

My experience and the knowledge I have, logically tells me that a whole lot of people don’t like dungeons or raids. So ten million people becomes less than 5 million.

Maybe, without the trinity, more people would do dungeons, but I’m not sure that’s the case either.

But there are a whole lot of people who play WoW, who just hang around in the world soloing and none of those people weigh in on the trinity at all.

purpleskies.3274:

I really miss the trinity, i feel it takes away an element in pvp (priority targets) and dungeons.

I would never have said anything before because the game wasn’t designed for the trinity. But it wasn’t designed for a gear treadmill either and they added that, so why not a trinity to.

And so by taking away the “priority targets”, does it not cause a more dynamic PvP battle? Not knowing how people are spec’d, having to use communication and tactics to determine targets?

OR

Look for the squishies and burn them down.

Manbo.5403:

purpleskies.3274:

I really miss the trinity, i feel it takes away an element in pvp (priority targets) and dungeons.

I would never have said anything before because the game wasn’t designed for the trinity. But it wasn’t designed for a gear treadmill either and they added that, so why not a trinity to.

And so by taking away the “priority targets”, does it not cause a more dynamic PvP battle? Not knowing how people are spec’d, having to use communication and tactics to determine targets?

OR

Look for the squishies and burn them down.

I’m sorry, but calling a 2 or 3 second stun or a 1 second knock back isn’t “tactics.” Nor is playing a guardian and being required to equip a scepter and run around like a coward because the current boss prevents any type of melee at all.

While there is no pure trinity here, there IS a soft trinity, I don’t care what people try to say. And because of that, boss mechanics need way more tuning than they currently have.

It doesn’t have to be the same guy every time who needs to be cc’ed. But it would be nice to have to make on-the-fly decisions on who needs to be TRULY cc’ed (not for just 2 seconds) or who has to be taken down first.

Throwing a crap ton of champion-level mobs in a hallway so you have to run through and hope you don’t get killed has nothing to do with “tactics.”

I love this game. But these dungeons need work.

And they’re working on them. I see it happening.

“The OP probably agrees more with me about this”

And a lot of people in this thread don’t agree with you. So?

“1) It’s nothing like GW1, which I loved and played to death.”

Why should it be? It’s a different game, not to mention it’s not exactly the same genre. People should quit torturing themselves over games. You shouldn’t play a game just to wait for it to get something else that you can like. If you don’t like it, don’t play it – like you just did, which is fine. Yeah, I know, I’m not supposed to say that, because if people leave the game will die, bla bla bla… I don’t care. It’s only a game. If it’s worth it, people will play it and it will prosper. If it’s that bad, then people will abandon it and “it will die” – but then it’s not worth it, is it? Don’t get me wrong, criticism is welcome, because there are things in the game which need fixing, but you cannot “bring back” the trinity into GW2 because it never had it. It was not planned to have it. You don’t moan about a driving simulator not having healer cars either.

I love, love, love that the trinity was summarily ousted from this game. Yay! What’s boring is folks trolling the forums by asking to have it squeezed in somehow.

The point, I think, that some of us are trying to make is not that the trinity is necessarily better – it is that GW2 just lacks any discernible form of teamwork requirement anywhere.

Sure the trinity is old fashioned, but at least it gave us something to do – something for your team to work together around. And if you say healing is just looking at bars and pressing the same button over and over again that is a bit of an oversimplification – you still need to walk out of fires, account for burst damage from bosses, heal someone other than the tank while still keeping the tank alive, and a bunch of other stuff – so it’s not like GW2 is the only game where you need to actively move around. There was (at least when I played during BC), a large gap between a mediocre and a decent tank.

So you actually had to cooperate with your team, and were rewarded (or should I say, not punished) for doing it. In GW2 you can work together with your team, but it just does so little. Does it really matter that we have a Necro in our team so the Illusionary Warlock can hit just that little bit harder? How about a Ranger placing water fields on your hammer Guardian so every 2-attack heals everyone? It just does so little, isn’t really required anyway, and these are the stronger examples I can think of.

This is why I find the dungeons to be kind of boring. Of course is is due to the way they are designed too. Subject Alpha is a fine example – there are only 2 mechanics to him: 1) Hit the purple crystal if someone is inside and 2) Wait 2 seconds after the red circles appear then dodge. Sure it takes teamwork to hit the purple crystal (so many people just stare at it -_-). That’s it.

TL;DR – Removing the trinity isn’t bad but it has to be replaced with something to make mastery of the game not just ‘be good at dodge rolling’.

EDIT: Yes I do believe, contrary to some of you guys’ opinions, that playing within the trinity takes teamwork. It’s not just ‘I heal you guys and that’s it’ – I can say that playing my elementalist is just ‘do damage to boss and snare/stun/knockdown/whatever-CC-I-have-up to help the team’ and make it sound kind of simple too.

Debsylvania.7396:

I love, love, love that the trinity was summarily ousted from this game. Yay! What’s boring is folks trolling the forums by asking to have it squeezed in somehow.

No more boring than people who read a couple posts (if that) to a 50+ post thread and make some general statement about it.

Shootsfoot.9276:

Debsylvania.7396:

I love, love, love that the trinity was summarily ousted from this game. Yay! What’s boring is folks trolling the forums by asking to have it squeezed in somehow.

No more boring than people who read a couple posts (if that) to a 50+ post thread and make some general statement about it.

I read the whole thread and commented on the gist. Which is allowed, I believe.

Rukia.4802:

Algreg.3629:

Trinity will not come to this game, it would take an enormous effort to rebuild characters and classes from scratch. Why do trinity addicts need to start a thread about this every week. All arguments have been exchanged many times over anyway. Yes, GW2 combat can be extremely boring, but that has quite different reasons than a lack of trinity – which would make the battles even more boring. And stop selling that concept as “strategy”. It is cookie cutter builds, rotating cookie cutter abilities in a cookie cutter order, all memorized from doing the same raid many times over. There is rarely strategy in the trinity approach, knowing what to do beforehand to counter rigid AI behaviour is simply memorizaiton, nothing else.

You just explained the current state of GW2… no strategy.

The lack of trinity wouldn’t even bother me if I wasn’t pigeon holed into using 2 skills on my thief constantly and oh switch to shortbow for AoE to spam 1 button how exciting.

ANet didn’t just remove trinity, they removed ‘build wars’ which was what kept GW1 alive for so many years and still interesting to this day. They made these 2 major decisions without replacing them with anything of value.

Can you honestly tell me you’ll be enjoying your character in a few years with the same exact skills, same rotation, same everything? Hell I’m already bored of it… was bored on the first week. Then again, I DO come from GW1… a truly unique game.

no, I am not telling you that and if you care to reread my post carefully you may stop then for a moment and ask yourself why the heck you thought we would disagree there.

Algreg.3629:

Rukia.4802:

Algreg.3629:

Trinity will not come to this game, it would take an enormous effort to rebuild characters and classes from scratch. Why do trinity addicts need to start a thread about this every week. All arguments have been exchanged many times over anyway. Yes, GW2 combat can be extremely boring, but that has quite different reasons than a lack of trinity – which would make the battles even more boring. And stop selling that concept as “strategy”. It is cookie cutter builds, rotating cookie cutter abilities in a cookie cutter order, all memorized from doing the same raid many times over. There is rarely strategy in the trinity approach, knowing what to do beforehand to counter rigid AI behaviour is simply memorizaiton, nothing else.

You just explained the current state of GW2… no strategy.

The lack of trinity wouldn’t even bother me if I wasn’t pigeon holed into using 2 skills on my thief constantly and oh switch to shortbow for AoE to spam 1 button how exciting.

ANet didn’t just remove trinity, they removed ‘build wars’ which was what kept GW1 alive for so many years and still interesting to this day. They made these 2 major decisions without replacing them with anything of value.

Can you honestly tell me you’ll be enjoying your character in a few years with the same exact skills, same rotation, same everything? Hell I’m already bored of it… was bored on the first week. Then again, I DO come from GW1… a truly unique game.

no, I am not telling you that and if you care to reread my post carefully you may stop then for a moment and ask yourself why the heck you thought we would disagree there.

O_o never said we disagree’d I was just elaborating my point.

Well if you want a hard-trinity in GW2, you ARE trolling. It’s like opening a topic on the Diablo forums demanding that real money AH should go. This game was designed the way it was designed. Without a trinity. You want a different game, you want this game to be something it isn’t.

Debsylvania.7396:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Debsylvania.7396:

I love, love, love that the trinity was summarily ousted from this game. Yay! What’s boring is folks trolling the forums by asking to have it squeezed in somehow.

No more boring than people who read a couple posts (if that) to a 50+ post thread and make some general statement about it.

I read the whole thread and commented on the gist. Which is allowed, I believe.

If that’s true, then I have to say your comprehension needs work, since there were just as many, if not more discussing mechanics of the dungeons, and how there is, indeed, a soft trinity in this game.

I want the game to be what it was advertised as, no grind and ‘everything I loved from GW1’.

ANet have already made the game something it wasn’t, so why not change it some more for the better? I’ve suggested countless idea’s, from major buffs to the combo system, to more skills, to a solid trinity, to professions having jobs that we could specialize in, etc. I’m not exactly a one track mind here, but all of my (and other peoples) idea’s are completely ignored and they just add more grind and faceroll content.

Not exactly trolling more than it is constructive idea’s. If you just dismiss everything as a troll then it’s your problem not mine lol

Debsylvania.7396:

Rukia.4802:

Debsylvania.7396:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Debsylvania.7396:

I love, love, love that the trinity was summarily ousted from this game. Yay! What’s boring is folks trolling the forums by asking to have it squeezed in somehow.

No more boring than people who read a couple posts (if that) to a 50+ post thread and make some general statement about it.

I read the whole thread. Ironic assumptions are the best.

Says the guy/girl who assumes we are trolling for wanting a trinity… rofl. Irony indeed.

The OP suggested, as have many other OPs before him/her, that AN should shoehorn in the trinity lest the whole game fall apart. I’m paraphrasing, of course. Your “we” has no relevance to my post even if you think it must. It’s not all about you, after all, is it?

Yea ok

Yay! What’s boring is folks trolling the forums by asking to have it squeezed in somehow.

Seems to me I am ‘folks’

Manbo.5403:

purpleskies.3274:

I really miss the trinity, i feel it takes away an element in pvp (priority targets) and dungeons.

I would never have said anything before because the game wasn’t designed for the trinity. But it wasn’t designed for a gear treadmill either and they added that, so why not a trinity to.

And so by taking away the “priority targets”, does it not cause a more dynamic PvP battle? Not knowing how people are spec’d, having to use communication and tactics to determine targets?

OR

Look for the squishies and burn them down.

In a system where you don’t know what the classes are because you can’t see buffs and you don’t know their spec it is not so easy to just say kill the squishies, you have to pay attention to what they are doing for clues (Daoc had a spec system and a class system with the trinity, so some healers had very small weak heals but bigger damage). I remember there was a tactic in DAOC for a while where the tanky classes would put on robes to lure the dps to attack them, and avoid the real damage classes. On top of that healers were not usually the squishy targets. It also made it so there were trade offs, killing a squishy burst class before healers might be a good idea if you can do it fast enough, or if you just want to have the healers burn their mana on healing a glass cannon, but usually killing a healer was more important. And priority targets also meant your team went out of there way to protect those targets, making things more difficult and complex. So it was no where near as simple as kill the squishy, it lead to a lot of great tactics.

In WvW here it is often much less about calling specific targets. Usually you target people who positioned themselves wrong, or who are up leveled, maybe target a hammer warrior if they are being annoying but I haven’t found picking targets to be as big of a deal in this game. It is not like taking out a few people will cause their unit to fall, just means they have one less person.

diabluz.2860:

In the long term the lack of the trinity makes instances and any other group play boring and shallow to say the least.

People aren’t forced to co operate and work together or strategize like in other mmo’s that we’ve all played in the past.

If you want people to continue playing this game for any length of time you need to bring back the trinity Anet.

The thing is there no team work in the old trinity set up. You just have ppl who happen to be playing together. The thing is what they are fighting. Dps is fighting the mobs hp the support is fighting your teams hp bars and your tanks are fighting a hate table. There just no team work in that its like playing a minly game with in the fight. GW2 has true team work with its combos you need a lot of communication to make them work well.

Guys let’s be realistic here.
You play some CoF1 with a signet build and say “oh this game is a DPS zergfest!”, it’s pretty common.
Then you play frac 40 and realize you got it completely wrong, that you’re actually tanking, healing and DPSing at the same time; if you don’t do this your team won’t get anywhere.
And there you see how much deeper this is compared to any other MMO combat.
Some people won’t even get to that point because they can’t get beyond the pidgeon-holed 1-role mechanic.

What we know for a fact is that the majority of this game’s population plays GW2 because it’s different.
Because we’re not limited and locked into one thing, we manage all aspects of combat.
Some will never like or understand this, let them post superficial reviews that mods will change into “in my opinion” titles and they’ll fall to page 10 in two days.
No need to give this more importance than it’s worth, we get this thread 2-3 times a month from some newbie, you don’t really need to rethink the theory of evolution every time.

The thing about a trinity is that you can’t do anything unless you have it. Within that model, you NEED a healer/tank/dps to do anything.

In GW2, you WANT a healer/tank/dps, but you don’t NEED one. You want to have at least one Guardian/Warrior to soak up damage. You want to have an elementalist for AOE/Healing. Having a 5 Melee DPS thieves in a party is probably bad team composition. But you can still play!! Having an unbalanced team makes the dungeon “more difficult” rather than “simply impossible”. That’s the difference between GW2 and other standard MMOs.

If you want more organized play, start doing level 30-fractals. Team composition becomes a much bigger deal at that level.

The more I think of it, the more I come to the conclusion that GW2´s problem regarding combat is that it is a transition product towards possible next generation games. Trinity is really stale by now, as is 1-7 rotation, GW2 introduced elements of single player action rpg without going all the way. It has left behind meaningful character building to a heavy degree and other MMORPG elements, but did not dare yet to become a full “gamepad rpg”, if you will. It really is a weird beast trapped between two worlds, not really good in any of them – neither is it strong in the static old rpg elements like character building, complicated and fun “raid mechanics” nor is it great as a skill based combat game.

The problem in GW2 is not the lack of trinity. The problem is the lack of roles in the fights. Nearly every single fight in the game only has one role needed : the dodgy DPS. Sure you can get a ranged one or a melee one but it’s just flavor and difficulty settings.

One fight where there are distinct roles in the game : the dredge fractal boss. One player has to handle the levers and the rest are dodgy DPS that kite the boss to the bucket spots. It’s one of the most complex fight in the game! The only most complex fight I remember is the Dwayna priest in Arah.

What is Trinity? It’s a core mechanic in other MMOs which guarantees that every fight will need at least 3 very distinct roles : healer, tank and DPS. The force of those MMOs is not by their methodical application of the basic roles in all fights, but by the differences they add in them.

For example in Tera, you have one fight were periodically an stong AoE is applied in the whole room (read, a nearly one hit KO AoE for the most tanky classes). And to prevent it you need to break a pillar a couple seconds before the AoE is applied.

Of course as a base template, this fight follows the usual tank/healer/DPS. But then you have added the custom role of “pillar breaker”. And then the players have to decide who does that. Common sense would have you use a DPS for that but, the pillars are actually very sturdy and take time to kill, a lot more than the warning you get before the AoE. The DPS has to lose time to soften the pillar first to be ready to finish it in one hit. The fight is also very DPS checked so you cannot really afford to lose one DPS here. Fortunately the boss itself is very easy to survive against so in fact, the tank if he’s good enough doesn’t actually need a healer. He’s got other things to worry though, the boss loves to move all other the place. The tank role then is to not only keep the boss aggro but also survive without a healer on his back constantly, and also he needs to keep the boss away from the piller you’ll break. Because he loves to knockdown people see. Nothing worse than getting knockdowned right when you were about to break that pillar right?

Trinity in itself isn’t what makes a good game really. GW2 doesn’t need it. But then again, a good traditional MMO goes beyond the trinity or else it has no imagination and all fights end up boring tank and spanks. Yet, it still gives the fights a very basic flow at the minimum. The main issue of trinity is that it imposes the presence of specific classes in specific proportion, not it’s effect on combat itself.

What does GW2 do here? First, it eliminates trinity thus reducing the player roles to the most basic form there is, then, it forgets to apply role diversity in most fights. As a result, most encounters in the game are summed up as “let’s go all and DPS that b…d down while dodging his attacks”. The presence of different player roles in a fight gives a strong feeling of teamwork. GW2 setup doesn’t.

wrote quickly think it sounded hostile :P didnt mean it like that i shall re-type once i am home and not at work.

stof.9341:

The problem in GW2 is not the lack of trinity. The problem is the lack of roles in the fights. Nearly every single fight in the game only has one role needed : the dodgy DPS. Sure you can get a ranged one or a melee one but it’s just flavor and difficulty settings.

One fight where there are distinct roles in the game : the dredge fractal boss. One player has to handle the levers and the rest are dodgy DPS that kite the boss to the bucket spots. It’s one of the most complex fight in the game! The only most complex fight I remember is the Dwayna priest in Arah.

What is Trinity? It’s a core mechanic in other MMOs which guarantees that every fight will need at least 3 very distinct roles : healer, tank and DPS. The force of those MMOs is not by their methodical application of the basic roles in all fights, but by the differences they add in them.

For example in Tera, you have one fight were periodically an stong AoE is applied in the whole room (read, a nearly one hit KO AoE for the most tanky classes). And to prevent it you need to break a pillar a couple seconds before the AoE is applied.

Of course as a base template, this fight follows the usual tank/healer/DPS. But then you have added the custom role of “pillar breaker”. And then the players have to decide who does that. Common sense would have you use a DPS for that but, the pillars are actually very sturdy and take time to kill, a lot more than the warning you get before the AoE. The DPS has to lose time to soften the pillar first to be ready to finish it in one hit. The fight is also very DPS checked so you cannot really afford to lose one DPS here. Fortunately the boss itself is very easy to survive against so in fact, the tank if he’s good enough doesn’t actually need a healer. He’s got other things to worry though, the boss loves to move all other the place. The tank role then is to not only keep the boss aggro but also survive without a healer on his back constantly, and also he needs to keep the boss away from the piller you’ll break. Because he loves to knockdown people see. Nothing worse than getting knockdowned right when you were about to break that pillar right?

Trinity in itself isn’t what makes a good game really. GW2 doesn’t need it. But then again, a good traditional MMO goes beyond the trinity or else it has no imagination and all fights end up boring tank and spanks. Yet, it still gives the fights a very basic flow at the minimum. The main issue of trinity is that it imposes the presence of specific classes in specific proportion, not it’s effect on combat itself.

What does GW2 do here? First, it eliminates trinity thus reducing the player roles to the most basic form there is, then, it forgets to apply role diversity in most fights. As a result, most encounters in the game are summed up as “let’s go all and DPS that b…d down while dodging his attacks”. The presence of different player roles in a fight gives a strong feeling of teamwork. GW2 setup doesn’t.

This is exactly what I’ve been trying to say.

Great post.

You mean the trinity where the DPS does DPS, the tank wants to be DPS and the Healer wants to be DPS. I think I’ve played that before.

I think I’ll stick to the GW2 system. I don’t even know if I will ever want to play a trinity game again after this.

Wanderer.3248:

diabluz.2860:

In the long term the lack of the trinity makes instances and any other group play boring and shallow to say the least.

People aren’t forced to co operate and work together or strategize like in other mmo’s that we’ve all played in the past.

If you want people to continue playing this game for any length of time you need to bring back the trinity Anet.

In GW2 the outcome of a fight is not decided on a spreadsheet before you even log in.

I think this post does a great disservice to everyone who ever played GvG or HA.

Fact is some classes are trinity, a guardian will always be a better tank than say an elementalist or an engineer.

If they really wanted to remove trinity they would have had the common sense to make armour not tied to a class since light armours now cant tank while heavy armours can

Light armour: 15% more damage taken, 15% faster stamina regen, 10% speed bonus, 5% skill speed bonus
Medium armour: 0% more damage taken, 0% faster stamina regen, 0% speed bonus, 0% skill speed bonus
Heavy armour: 15% LESS damage taken, 15% slower stamina regen, 10% speed reduction, 5% skill speed debuff

Trinity problem fixed, elementalists can wear heavy armours to be more tanky and guardians can wear light to focus on support and speed.

Phoenix.3416:

Fact is some classes are trinity, a guardian will always be a better tank than say an elementalist or an engineer.

If they really wanted to remove trinity they would have had the common sense to make armour not tied to a class since light armours now cant tank while heavy armours can

Light armour: 15% more damage taken, 15% faster stamina regen, 10% speed bonus, 5% skill speed bonus
Medium armour: 0% more damage taken, 0% faster stamina regen, 0% speed bonus, 0% skill speed bonus
Heavy armour: 15% LESS damage taken, 15% slower stamina regen, 10% speed reduction, 5% skill speed debuff

Trinity problem fixed, elementalists can wear heavy armours to be more tanky and guardians can wear light to focus on support and speed.

Ele are amazing tanks your still stuck in the mind set that armor going to make or break a class its about the skill that you use and the skill of the player. This game is not about specialization and if you build in such a way your tend to be weaker then thoughts who do not and at the same time your making your pt over all out put weaker.

Ele tank tend to be D/D or D/F your going to pull hate and make them hit into your auras at the same time your auras are buffing your team letting them out put more dmg a lot faster and giving them the same effects as your auras if the mob falls off you. Ele can root mobs stun mob block ranges attks get out of roots if needed remove condition on your team even becoming immune to attk. And of not but not lest they can roll with the best of them being the main tank ability in pve in GW2.

Nah. It’s great for people who like to solo and incidentally team up with other people.

I like not having to be forced to do anything and cooperate of my own accord.

You misread what I put, some classes are just BETTER at tanking than others. Since Armour is fixed to classes it gives some classes a weakness when tanking, although they might be great tanks they wont be as effective as a heavy armour class with the same skills since heavy can take more hits.

Armour should be made free between the classes with a speed/regen buff for lighter and higher health but slower for the tankier armours.

Phoenix.3416:

You misread what I put, some classes are just BETTER at tanking than others. Since Armour is fixed to classes it gives some classes a weakness when tanking, although they might be great tanks they wont be as effective as a heavy armour class with the same skills since heavy can take more hits.

Armour should be made free between the classes with a speed/regen buff for lighter and higher health but slower for the tankier armours.

Everybody would just pick plate/heavy armor, then.

I just think there still should be a frontline, midline, and backline casters setup like GW1 had.

I liked that a lot.

The thought that somebody in cloth/light armor should be expected to tank/take hits as much as a heavy/plate wearer is a bit unrealistic, IMO.