Guild Wars 2

Shivan.9438:

I think this is a good time to post what I’ve said over the years.

Supply and demand does not work when resources are infinite. Supply and demand is a model that works when resources are limited. When resources are low, demand creates an increase in price. When supply is plentiful, prices go down.

But that is not the case when resources are not finite and the economy is player controlled. And here’s why:

As long as mobs are spawning, bosses are spawning, loot is dropping, then the supply is not finite. They’re not limited. Thus prices should never go up. The reason prices are high is because people are trying to bank on mats that are used on a hyped piece of armor or weapon. It’s not that mats are limited, nor are there a low amount, just look at the amount of mats in the TP. At no point. NO POINT can every single mat of a given type be bought out to create a high price for high demand. There are plenty of mats. This is nothing more than player greed, NOT SUPPLY AND DEMAND. Even if every mat of a specific type was bought out and the TP drained, there wouldn’t be a crisis for long as there are players still killing, getting loot and listing mats on the TP.

Another reason why prices are so high is that Anet dun goofed when it comes to the amount of mats you need. I power leveled tailoring on my necro and actually bought the mats needed to make my ascended gear for roughly 150-200 gold per piece of gear. How hard is it to make that kind of gold? It’s stupidly easy, not hard at all. But if you look at the differences between Tailoring, Leatherworking and Armor Smithing, you need a ludicrous amount more of leather or ore than you do cloth. That’s Anet’s mistake, by not balancing what you need.

The next reason why mats are high goes back to this stupid idea of supply and demand in an environment where supplies are always within reach. If players would stop undercutting and list for more, the economy would do quite well and people would actually make money, from selling mats to farming them. Here’s why:

If prices were listed for even a copper more rather than a copper less, those that vested in the TP would make money. Prices would go up, yes. But they would reach a point where players would not pay for those mats and go farm for them, causing prices to drop and reach a point where prices were acceptable and people would go back to buying mats on the TP. Another things that would help the economy is to stop the rush for ascended gear. Ascended gear and legendaries are supposed to be culmination of months, perhaps a year or more’s worth of work. But since Anet tested raids in Ascended gear, it’s supposed to be the only way you can raid, despite raids being completed in exos.

We didn’t need a new leather farm, we just needed drop rates and patterns adjusted in the existing world. That excuse about not enough time and resources is a joke. It takes less time to change a number rather than make a new map, put in the new mobs, make the damage stupidly overpowered and then create a back way in, just in case you can’t make the gauntlet run.

Nothing is infinite.

You’re forgetting a very important thing. People are resources too. There’s always a limited supply of players at any given time, they are not infinite. People have to eat, work, take a break, etc. Players are limited resources. Resources themselves are also limited since they depend on how many players are generating them. So supply and demand still works here.

Still, I agree with you. The reason hard leather prices are so high is simply because the supply is low. There’s no reliable way to get hardened leather in this game. All in all, the new leather farm raises the supply of all the other leathers EXCEPT for the one we needed! (Hardened)

JTGuevara.9018:

Shivan.9438:

I think this is a good time to post what I’ve said over the years.

Supply and demand does not work when resources are infinite. Supply and demand is a model that works when resources are limited. When resources are low, demand creates an increase in price. When supply is plentiful, prices go down.

But that is not the case when resources are not finite and the economy is player controlled. And here’s why:

As long as mobs are spawning, bosses are spawning, loot is dropping, then the supply is not finite. They’re not limited. Thus prices should never go up. The reason prices are high is because people are trying to bank on mats that are used on a hyped piece of armor or weapon. It’s not that mats are limited, nor are there a low amount, just look at the amount of mats in the TP. At no point. NO POINT can every single mat of a given type be bought out to create a high price for high demand. There are plenty of mats. This is nothing more than player greed, NOT SUPPLY AND DEMAND. Even if every mat of a specific type was bought out and the TP drained, there wouldn’t be a crisis for long as there are players still killing, getting loot and listing mats on the TP.

Another reason why prices are so high is that Anet dun goofed when it comes to the amount of mats you need. I power leveled tailoring on my necro and actually bought the mats needed to make my ascended gear for roughly 150-200 gold per piece of gear. How hard is it to make that kind of gold? It’s stupidly easy, not hard at all. But if you look at the differences between Tailoring, Leatherworking and Armor Smithing, you need a ludicrous amount more of leather or ore than you do cloth. That’s Anet’s mistake, by not balancing what you need.

The next reason why mats are high goes back to this stupid idea of supply and demand in an environment where supplies are always within reach. If players would stop undercutting and list for more, the economy would do quite well and people would actually make money, from selling mats to farming them. Here’s why:

If prices were listed for even a copper more rather than a copper less, those that vested in the TP would make money. Prices would go up, yes. But they would reach a point where players would not pay for those mats and go farm for them, causing prices to drop and reach a point where prices were acceptable and people would go back to buying mats on the TP. Another things that would help the economy is to stop the rush for ascended gear. Ascended gear and legendaries are supposed to be culmination of months, perhaps a year or more’s worth of work. But since Anet tested raids in Ascended gear, it’s supposed to be the only way you can raid, despite raids being completed in exos.

We didn’t need a new leather farm, we just needed drop rates and patterns adjusted in the existing world. That excuse about not enough time and resources is a joke. It takes less time to change a number rather than make a new map, put in the new mobs, make the damage stupidly overpowered and then create a back way in, just in case you can’t make the gauntlet run.

Nothing is infinite.

You’re forgetting a very important thing. People are resources too. There’s always a limited supply of players at any given time, they are not infinite. People have to eat, work, take a break, etc. Players are limited resources. Resources themselves are also limited since they depend on how many players are generating them. So supply and demand still works here.

Still, I agree with you. The reason hard leather prices are so high is simply because the supply is low. There’s no reliable way to get hardened leather in this game. All in all, the new leather farm raises the supply of all the other leathers EXCEPT for the one we needed! (Hardened)

It’s clear you don’t understand the relationship between the lower tiers and the highest tier if you believe that the new leather farm doesn’t increase the supply of T6 leather. I hope there are more people that are unawares of this … time to make some gold.

Neural.1824:

GW2 is approaching the 5 year mark (this summer). The entire team has delivered many episodes of the Living Story and an expansion. Yet some things seem no better than years back.
It is as if the developers at Anet do not understand how their own RNG encumbered loot system works.
If you lock something like leather behind RNG and expect players to take advantage of it…. the results are going to go wrong in all number of ways.
If the players jump on it and farm farm farm… sure, T6 leather might come down in price, but there is going to be a glut of all the other tier types, knocking them down to vendor prices (which they made drastic changes to avoid..that caused the T6 problem, because the drops are RNG based…and.. yeah.)
If the players don’t jump on it and farm, it doesn’t fix the problem the players had in the first place, and you’ve wasted a ton of dev time, on top of making yourselves look foolish to the players that want a change.
This is the folly of using RNG as a way of making things scarce.
Take Skittles as an example. Players are getting Skittles dumped into a huge bowl (TP), but only the red ones are desired (not being a Skittle-ist, just an example here).
So what does Anet do? Well, whomever it is that makes the decisions has decided that the only way to give the players more red Skittles….is to add another source of… more random Skittles. The bowl simply gets even more full, and red Skittles are just as uncommon. No-one is going to go rushing to the new source to waste their time and energy to obtain a scant amount of red ones when the rate is no different from anywhere else in game.

In the long run, I find it impossible to believe that Mike, John, and the others didn’t seed this. The “leather farm” is just more of the same things: Scarcity and RNG. They merely packaged it in a manner that made it sound like it had more red Skittles.

On a similar note, as more evidence, the new achievement that was added which requires an event to fail. They have known for 2 years at least that this causes player hostility and toxicity in the community, yet here we are again.. they are doing the same old thing, regardless of how many times the players have told them it is a problem.

Again, they aren’t stupid. They don’t ignore the forums. So the only conclusion I can come to here, in both the above situations, is that they simply do not care to change their methods, and it’s all just theater to keep the players playing and paying.

How the hell can anyone point at gw2 and cry RNG. Like it’s the most un-rng MMO out there right now. Even leather is not nearly as RNG as people think. If a person seriously wanted to farm leather all they need to do is make a medium class, play the game and salvage everything. Promote t5 to t6 and forget about the trading post. I mean how do people think medium armor classes got full exotics during headstart when the trading post wasn’t working? Stand around 3 months crying for a leather farm?

The most RNG BiS item ingame atm is ascended/infused rings through fractal drops. And those you can acquire through 100% non-rng means 10x faster than through RNG.

Obtena.7952:

It’s clear you don’t understand the relationship between the lower tiers and the highest tier if you believe that the new leather farm doesn’t increase the supply of T6 leather. I hope there are more people that are unawares of this … time to make some gold.

The supply didn’t change with that new farm. So long it’s a solid fact.
You can argue all you want as long as you want, but when the demand is 4x the supply for over a year it is a deficite and unhealthy situation for the market.

Obtena.7952:

JTGuevara.9018:

Shivan.9438:

I think this is a good time to post what I’ve said over the years.

Supply and demand does not work when resources are infinite. Supply and demand is a model that works when resources are limited. When resources are low, demand creates an increase in price. When supply is plentiful, prices go down.

But that is not the case when resources are not finite and the economy is player controlled. And here’s why:

As long as mobs are spawning, bosses are spawning, loot is dropping, then the supply is not finite. They’re not limited. Thus prices should never go up. The reason prices are high is because people are trying to bank on mats that are used on a hyped piece of armor or weapon. It’s not that mats are limited, nor are there a low amount, just look at the amount of mats in the TP. At no point. NO POINT can every single mat of a given type be bought out to create a high price for high demand. There are plenty of mats. This is nothing more than player greed, NOT SUPPLY AND DEMAND. Even if every mat of a specific type was bought out and the TP drained, there wouldn’t be a crisis for long as there are players still killing, getting loot and listing mats on the TP.

Another reason why prices are so high is that Anet dun goofed when it comes to the amount of mats you need. I power leveled tailoring on my necro and actually bought the mats needed to make my ascended gear for roughly 150-200 gold per piece of gear. How hard is it to make that kind of gold? It’s stupidly easy, not hard at all. But if you look at the differences between Tailoring, Leatherworking and Armor Smithing, you need a ludicrous amount more of leather or ore than you do cloth. That’s Anet’s mistake, by not balancing what you need.

The next reason why mats are high goes back to this stupid idea of supply and demand in an environment where supplies are always within reach. If players would stop undercutting and list for more, the economy would do quite well and people would actually make money, from selling mats to farming them. Here’s why:

If prices were listed for even a copper more rather than a copper less, those that vested in the TP would make money. Prices would go up, yes. But they would reach a point where players would not pay for those mats and go farm for them, causing prices to drop and reach a point where prices were acceptable and people would go back to buying mats on the TP. Another things that would help the economy is to stop the rush for ascended gear. Ascended gear and legendaries are supposed to be culmination of months, perhaps a year or more’s worth of work. But since Anet tested raids in Ascended gear, it’s supposed to be the only way you can raid, despite raids being completed in exos.

We didn’t need a new leather farm, we just needed drop rates and patterns adjusted in the existing world. That excuse about not enough time and resources is a joke. It takes less time to change a number rather than make a new map, put in the new mobs, make the damage stupidly overpowered and then create a back way in, just in case you can’t make the gauntlet run.

Nothing is infinite.

You’re forgetting a very important thing. People are resources too. There’s always a limited supply of players at any given time, they are not infinite. People have to eat, work, take a break, etc. Players are limited resources. Resources themselves are also limited since they depend on how many players are generating them. So supply and demand still works here.

Still, I agree with you. The reason hard leather prices are so high is simply because the supply is low. There’s no reliable way to get hardened leather in this game. All in all, the new leather farm raises the supply of all the other leathers EXCEPT for the one we needed! (Hardened)

It’s clear you don’t understand the relationship between the lower tiers and the highest tier if you believe that the new leather farm doesn’t increase the supply of T6 leather. I hope there are more people that are unawares of this … time to make some gold.

Oh no, I understand it just fine. I’ve farmed 100 leather hides yesterday. Know how many hardened leather I’ve salvaged? EIGHT.

It’s a slight increase, yes, but let’s not kid ourselves. Hard leather price is still going to be high. There’s just no reliable way to get it in this game.

Ider.1276:

Obtena.7952:

It’s clear you don’t understand the relationship between the lower tiers and the highest tier if you believe that the new leather farm doesn’t increase the supply of T6 leather. I hope there are more people that are unawares of this … time to make some gold.

The supply didn’t change with that new farm. So long it’s a solid fact.
You can argue all you want as long as you want, but when the demand is 4x the supply for over a year it is a deficite and unhealthy situation for the market.

Yes, because ONE DAY of data is going to give ONE WHOLE statistically significant data POINT, proving supply didn’t change with the new farm. Oh my, l2math is all I can respond with.

JTGuevara.9018:

Oh no, I understand it just fine. I’ve farmed 100 leather hides yesterday. Know how many hardened leather I’ve salvaged? EIGHT.

It’s a slight increase, yes, but let’s not kid ourselves. Hard leather price is still going to be high. There’s just no reliable way to get it in this game.

You see, your post is demonstrating my point about not understanding the relationship between T6 and other leather teirs … let me ask you a question … how much T5 leather did you get? what did you do with that?

Obtena.7952:

Ider.1276:

Obtena.7952:

It’s clear you don’t understand the relationship between the lower tiers and the highest tier if you believe that the new leather farm doesn’t increase the supply of T6 leather. I hope there are more people that are unawares of this … time to make some gold.

The supply didn’t change with that new farm. So long it’s a solid fact.
You can argue all you want as long as you want, but when the demand is 4x the supply for over a year it is a deficite and unhealthy situation for the market.

Yes, because ONE DAY of data is going to give ONE WHOLE statistically significant data POINT, proving supply didn’t change with the new farm. Oh my, l2math is all I can respond with.

JTGuevara.9018:

Oh no, I understand it just fine. I’ve farmed 100 leather hides yesterday. Know how many hardened leather I’ve salvaged? EIGHT.

It’s a slight increase, yes, but let’s not kid ourselves. Hard leather price is still going to be high. There’s just no reliable way to get it in this game.

You see, your post is demonstrating my point about not understanding the relationship between T6 and other leather teirs … let me ask you a question … how much T5 leather did you get? what did you do with that?

Thick leather? 40
Rugged leather? 20
Coarse leather? 10-15
Thin leather? 10
Rawhide leather? 10

Hard leather is still the hardest to get.

Of course it’s the hardest to get … you thought it was going to rain down on you like a hailstorm? Anet was pretty clear that this was a leather farming area … did you somehow infer this would mean T6 would be the primary drop there? Do you think that’s a realistic expectation? I don’t.

Seems to me you need to get your expectations properly aligned … and learn what you can do with those other leather tiers to get what you want.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5t7d1u/possible_spoilers_salvage_rate_research_for/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=Guildwars2

This might be of some interest to people in this thread. Salvage rates from 4,000 drops from the new map. 1,000 each of Bloodstone-Warped Hides (the drops from the centaurs) and Unstable Hides (which drop from the random white mantle mobs in the map) with both the copper fed and silver fed salvage o matic.

TL;DR – The unstable hides give significantly more T2, 3, 4, 6 leather than the Bloodstone Warped Hides does. I don’t know if this is intentional or not, but if you want leather in other tiers than T5, then the centaur camp is not your friend. Instead just randomly killing white mantle mobs on the map is good-ish at that instead.

Obtena.7952:

That’s a rather cherry-picked conclusion. I could as easily conclude that it’s as if the developers at Anet completely understand how their RNG loot system works. The way you present your post, it seems you believe that the system works badly and that Anet can’t see that. You completely excluded the idea that it works exactly as Anet intends it to and that you’re idea of what is bad or good doesn’t really play into how Anet designs the game.

Read it again, the whole thing.

They just put in and entire area in a new map as a supposed answer to fixing the price issue with leather, and through implementation of the RNG system they supposedly understand, they killed the purpose of it.

It’s entirely possible that they do know how it works, but if that is true, then the whole story that this is some sort of “leather farm” is a facade put up to give players the impression that Anet is providing a solution to the problem, when all they are doing is adding another source where players won’t get what they are after.

As has been stated before, people have spent an hour there and only gotten a very unimpressive amount of T6 leather, which will result in players saying “never mind” and going back to Silverwastes or whatever pops up to replace the AB multi-loot. They’ll go back to simply making gold in one of the far more efficient ways, and buy the leather outright.

The end result is leather prices stay the same, and this brand new area that took who knows how many hours for devs to develop, will remain a place where people only go to grab the two points of interest for zone completion.

Obtena.7952:

Of course it’s the hardest to get … you thought it was going to rain down on you like a hailstorm?

Why shouldn’t it rain? The others certainly are!

Obtena.7952:

Anet was pretty clear that this was a leather farming area … did you somehow infer this would mean T6 would be the primary drop there? Do you think that’s a realistic expectation? I don’t.

Oh no! I believe them! When ANet said leather farm, by gods, they meant leather farm! The thing is, we never really needed it. T1-5 leather is already plentiful as it is. It’s T6 that we all need. NO I didn’t infer that T6 was the primary drop, you know that doesn’t exist!

Obtena.7952:

Seems to me you need to get your expectations properly aligned … and learn what you can do with those other leather tiers to get what you want.

Or how about just increasing drops so the ridiculously absurd price of hard leather falls? In relation to other T6 mats, hard leather is way too high.

OriOri.8724:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5t7d1u/possible_spoilers_salvage_rate_research_for/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=Guildwars2

This might be of some interest to people in this thread. Salvage rates from 4,000 drops from the new map. 1,000 each of Bloodstone-Warped Hides (the drops from the centaurs) and Unstable Hides (which drop from the random white mantle mobs in the map) with both the copper fed and silver fed salvage o matic.

TL;DR – The unstable hides give significantly more T2, 3, 4, 6 leather than the Bloodstone Warped Hides does. I don’t know if this is intentional or not, but if you want leather in other tiers than T5, then the centaur camp is not your friend. Instead just randomly killing white mantle mobs on the map is good-ish at that instead.

Of course. It’s like Bloodstone Fen.

Shivan.9438:

If prices were listed for even a copper more rather than a copper less, those that vested in the TP would make money. Prices would go up, yes. But they would reach a point where players would not pay for those mats and go farm for them, causing prices to drop and reach a point where prices were acceptable and people would go back to buying mats on the TP.

Nope actually I’d either (a) stop playing because my income wasn’t enough to afford stuff (ed: don’t get me wrong I don’t mind farming as long as it’s rewarding enough, when it’s not I won’t even bother with it at all), (b) pull out my credit card and just buy gold, this is where being able to buy gold is a bad bad idea it means prices can skyrocket to the moon and as long as someone is inserting their credit card, ArenaNet is in no wise shape or form inspired to fix the problem, because the bottom line is not how much gold you have but how my cash ArenaNet can make off of you, by whatever nefarious insidious slight of hand means they see fit too, it’s our jobs as the consumer to say no we’re not paying for this and walk, but ArenaNet has every right to make cash we wouldn’t have a game otherwise.

I much prefer how it was done in GW1 merchants sold the mats you need at a ‘fixed’ price.

Obtena.7952:

let me ask you a question … how much T5 leather did you get? what did you do with that?

Last time i checked, upgrading t5 to t6 was a loss compared to just selling it and buying t6 directly.

JTGuevara.9018:

Obtena.7952:

Of course it’s the hardest to get … you thought it was going to rain down on you like a hailstorm?

Why shouldn’t it rain? The others certainly are!

Obtena.7952:

Anet was pretty clear that this was a leather farming area … did you somehow infer this would mean T6 would be the primary drop there? Do you think that’s a realistic expectation? I don’t.

Oh no! I believe them! When ANet said leather farm, by gods, they meant leather farm! The thing is, we never really needed it. T1-5 leather is already plentiful as it is. It’s T6 that we all need. NO I didn’t infer that T6 was the primary drop, you know that doesn’t exist!

Obtena.7952:

Seems to me you need to get your expectations properly aligned … and learn what you can do with those other leather tiers to get what you want.

Or how about just increasing drops so the ridiculously absurd price of hard leather falls? In relation to other T6 mats, hard leather is way too high.

You’re obviously not thinking of it from there end, which is what is relevant here. They don’t care what the price is and they never did. Their perspective is to keep leather a commodity worth trading, not to simply flood people with it so they can craft whatever they want whenever they want. It’s amusing that you compare T6 to other tiers and say the price is too high … obviously you aren’t aware that the price of T6 leather is anchored by the prices of the other leathers.

Astralporing.1957:

Obtena.7952:

let me ask you a question … how much T5 leather did you get? what did you do with that?

Last time i checked, upgrading t5 to t6 was a loss compared to just selling it and buying t6 directly.

You can get the T6 your after; you can either upgrade T5 or sell your T5 if that loss bothers you can by T6 with it. Hint … the price of T6 leather is anchored by the T5 upgrading process so either way statistically will be roughly equivalent. Point is this; there are options and Anet knows that and most likely considered it when planning this farming area.

Obtena.7952:

JTGuevara.9018:

Obtena.7952:

Of course it’s the hardest to get … you thought it was going to rain down on you like a hailstorm?

Why shouldn’t it rain? The others certainly are!

Obtena.7952:

Anet was pretty clear that this was a leather farming area … did you somehow infer this would mean T6 would be the primary drop there? Do you think that’s a realistic expectation? I don’t.

Oh no! I believe them! When ANet said leather farm, by gods, they meant leather farm! The thing is, we never really needed it. T1-5 leather is already plentiful as it is. It’s T6 that we all need. NO I didn’t infer that T6 was the primary drop, you know that doesn’t exist!

Obtena.7952:

Seems to me you need to get your expectations properly aligned … and learn what you can do with those other leather tiers to get what you want.

Or how about just increasing drops so the ridiculously absurd price of hard leather falls? In relation to other T6 mats, hard leather is way too high.

You’re obviously not thinking of it from there end, which is what is relevant here. They don’t care what the price is and they never did. Their perspective is to keep leather a commodity worth trading, not to simply flood people with it so they can craft whatever they want whenever they want. It’s amusing that you compare T6 to other tiers and say the price is too high … obviously you aren’t aware that the price of T6 leather is anchored by the prices of the other leathers.

Astralporing.1957:

Obtena.7952:

let me ask you a question … how much T5 leather did you get? what did you do with that?

Last time i checked, upgrading t5 to t6 was a loss compared to just selling it and buying t6 directly.

You can get the T6 your after; you can either upgrade T5 or sell your T5 if that loss bothers you can by T6 with it. Hint … the price of T6 leather is anchored by the T5 upgrading process so either way statistically will be roughly equivalent. Point is this; there are options and Anet knows that and most likely considered it when planning this farming area.

It’s not anchored by it, it’s a larger loss. Even if a stack of 250 thick leather was half the cost it is now it’d still be a loss.

Well, that’s not what anchored means so … all the promotable mats are anchored by their subordinates to some degree, especially if they are hard to get in the open world. If T6 leather was only available through promotion, it would be completely anchored by the availability of the sub-T6 leathers.

Lets not forget that this leather farm , in all it’s glory, is the thing that replaced the now barren wasteland that is Auric Basin. At least it has in many players minds. Personally, I’m thrilled that we are all accepting this farm in place of the AB Multiloot. So, we should be thankful for 4 or 5 T6 leathers instead of 40 rares. Or at least those with Hot who have access to it should be.

No. ABML was an exploit unintended by the devs. Leather farm is something the devs created to increase the supply of leather. It’s totally different and leather farm was never design to achieve the same purpose as AM meta (ML or not) reward. QQing about a new farm that doesn’t achieve the ABML level of reward is just stupidity at its finest.

The problem about updating salvage result or crafting receipt is that the pop is so high that the resulting influx is going to crash the market.

Atm, t5 → t6 (raw) is profit :
sell price of the receip : 250 * 83c + 20s14c + 5*20s16c = 3g32s29c
buy price of the receip (aka opportiny cost) : 250 * 1s + 23s30 + 5*21s33c = 3g79s95c

The receipt output according to wiki en average 18.92 t6 so about 3g81s23c (buy price) or 4g40s07c (sell price, i let you make compute the tp tax). Here is a link to gw2profit, which assummes a average output of 17, which shows that if you want leather, the receipt is still a profit but isn’t if you want to sell because tp tax which is prefectly fine. If you intend to sell leather, you misunderstood the purpose of this farm.

tbh i’m pretty impressed by the way Anet implemented this because :

• promotion increases value of spirit shard and t6 dust (thus ecto)
• doesn’t flood the market with t6 mat because it’s a promotion and not a plain drop
• it’s a “slow” farm so its effects aren’t huge and aren’t likely to crush the market
• lazy people that don’t promote are punished

The only thing that bothers me is the HoT exclusivity but cleric farm or ABML were already HoT only.

T5 and T6 are linked (not anchored because that implies one doesn’t move), a huge influx of T5 will make the promotion even better so T6 should get lower as T5 does. T5 is still faaar away from vendor trash and the demand is lower than i expected since the promotion is worth it.

People that are just farming gold to buy leather are basicly saying “I find that leather too cheap”. There is a lot of way to acquire a lot of leather in this game (wvw is a giant leather farm) if you go out of ABML and SW.

As a final note, i’m pretty amazed by everyone who just discovered that unstable hide is a good farm, we know it since bloodstone fen. Did you even cleric farm ? I think people whinning about low tiers never did because i’m drowing into low tier leather.

TL;DR : people should farm more leather and promote more instead of complaining.

How’s the leather farm as an XP farm?

I just need the POI here but it’s infuriating to get to solo. Ergo, no map completion for me.

Any tips please?

Flatley.1620:

I just need the POI here but it’s infuriating to get to solo. Ergo, no map completion for me.

Any tips please?

Join up with a leather farm group via LFG, and follow them until you have the POI.

Or you can go the back way, from the peach tree area. You’ll still have to survive running past quite a few of the centaurs, but it’s more manageable than running in from the front.

Oddly prices for leather haven’t been affected much, cloth on the other hand …

Yeah, a real fix would be to undo the damage they did at the start of HoT with their ham-fisted changes to leather refinement. It was a good idea to change the insignia recipes to require some leather (but again they went overboard with how much they required). Now they want you to farm to sort out the imbalances they created.

Thankfully I’ve already got 500 in the crafting disciplines so I don’t need to worry about that.

ich.7086:

No. ABML was an exploit unintended by the devs. Leather farm is something the devs created to increase the supply of leather. It’s totally different and leather farm was never design to achieve the same purpose as AM meta (ML or not) reward. QQing about a new farm that doesn’t achieve the ABML level of reward is just stupidity at its finest.

The problem about updating salvage result or crafting receipt is that the pop is so high that the resulting influx is going to crash the market.

Atm, t5 -> t6 (raw) is profit :
sell price of the receip : 250 * 83c + 20s14c + 5*20s16c = 3g32s29c
buy price of the receip (aka opportiny cost) : 250 * 1s + 23s30 + 5*21s33c = 3g79s95c

The receipt output according to wiki en average 18.92 t6 so about 3g81s23c (buy price) or 4g40s07c (sell price, i let you make compute the tp tax). Here is a link to gw2profit, which assummes a average output of 17, which shows that if you want leather, the receipt is still a profit but isn’t if you want to sell because tp tax which is prefectly fine. If you intend to sell leather, you misunderstood the purpose of this farm.

tbh i’m pretty impressed by the way Anet implemented this because :

• promotion increases value of spirit shard and t6 dust (thus ecto)
• doesn’t flood the market with t6 mat because it’s a promotion and not a plain drop
• it’s a “slow” farm so its effects aren’t huge and aren’t likely to crush the market
• lazy people that don’t promote are punished

The only thing that bothers me is the HoT exclusivity but cleric farm or ABML were already HoT only.

T5 and T6 are linked (not anchored because that implies one doesn’t move), a huge influx of T5 will make the promotion even better so T6 should get lower as T5 does. T5 is still faaar away from vendor trash and the demand is lower than i expected since the promotion is worth it.

People that are just farming gold to buy leather are basicly saying “I find that leather too cheap”. There is a lot of way to acquire a lot of leather in this game (wvw is a giant leather farm) if you go out of ABML and SW.

As a final note, i’m pretty amazed by everyone who just discovered that unstable hide is a good farm, we know it since bloodstone fen. Did you even cleric farm ? I think people whinning about low tiers never did because i’m drowing into low tier leather.

TL;DR : people should farm more leather and promote more instead of complaining.

According to the wiki promotion only outputs 10. So it’s a loss.

ich.7086:

TL;DR : people should farm more leather and promote more instead of complaining.

TLDR you don’t understand economics. Nobody is going to waste spirit shards on something as dumb as converting leather. Spirit shards are a limited input and people will try to get the highest gold per shard they can. You can convert spirit shards into something else at 1.5 to 2.5 gold per shard and then pay the TP tax, and go out and buy the leather.

I don’t know why so many people on this forum are shocked when gamers act in a rational economic manner.

Ayrilana.1396:

How’s the leather farm as an XP farm?

bitterfrost is better

Fremtid.3528:

According to the wiki promotion only outputs 10. So it’s a loss.

10 is the minimum output see this (output quantity : 10-40 on the recipe) , I took the average from here

l2wiki :)

Obtena.7952:

Well, that’s not what anchored means so … all the promotable mats are anchored by their subordinates to some degree, especially if they are hard to get in the open world. If T6 leather was only available through promotion, it would be completely anchored by the availability of the sub-T6 leathers.

But it isn’t available only through promotion – and you forget that currently the t5 leather is the least important component of the promotion recipe.

TorsoReaper.8530:

ich.7086:

TL;DR : people should farm more leather and promote more instead of complaining.

TLDR you don’t understand economics. Nobody is going to waste spirit shards on something as dumb as converting leather. Spirit shards are a limited input and people will try to get the highest gold per shard they can. You can convert spirit shards into something else at 1.5 to 2.5 gold per shard and then pay the TP tax, and go out and buy the leather.

Let’s say a spirit shard worth 2,5g.
If you buy the output leather it costs you about 10/11 gold so the worth of 4/5 spirit shard by TP. The recipe costs only 1 spirit shard. So it’s more efficient in spirit shard to promote.

TL;DR : l2math ?

TorsoReaper.8530:

I don’t know why so many people on this forum are shocked when gamers act in a rational economic manner.

People that only farm liquid gold to buy things instead of actually farming things only increase prices. Sure it’s a rational economic thing to do since you have the best output/time ratio but it create low supply/high demand on basic things which quickly inflate in prices because people are wealthy. But more people farm only gold and less people actually farm the mats, worse the situation is for the gold farmers and better is for the mat farmer. Leather isn’t just worth enough for people going specificly for it at its current drop rate but enough for people to whine about.

ich.7086:

TL;DR : l2math ?

Exactly, L2Math. Spirit shard using thick leather promote is worth 88s 55c.

Our guild tried the leather farm last night. As it was promised as a challenging group content, we entered with a group of 10-12. The first thing I noticed was the massive presence of champions in the upper area and their very quick respawn cycle. We made tons of champion bags within half an hour.

It is basically Halloween labfarm with tougher mobs and loot focused on leather instead of candy corn. The leather loot was nice and it was fun for some time. After a while it gets horribly boring, as you simply walk in circles like … labfarm. Those who enjoy that, may enjoy the leather farm as well.

If your group is made of meta/zerk players, you may need a healer. Luckyly they made the mobs tough enough, so afk farming may never be an issue there. Ofcourse never say never, people in this game are very creative with this stuff.

TorsoReaper.8530:

ich.7086:

TL;DR : l2math ?

Exactly, L2Math. Spirit shard using thick leather promote is worth 88s 55c.

But the goal is to get leather, not gold.

Promotion is obviously the not optimal way to convert its spirit shards to gold but the most efficient way to convert its spirit shard to leather.

Personally, i don’t see why they added this. Simpler solution is just playing with the crafting tables again. All leather used to be 2 to make 1. Thick is now what 4 to make 1 and hardened 3 to make 1? They can just reset those #’s for a time, much like they did with soft wood. That used to be 2 logs per plank, then to 4, then to 3, then back to 2. In another 6 months or so watch it go back up to 3 or 4 logs per plank. They can do the same with leather. Would avoid the “need” to really farm it or spend hours to farm for minimal gain.

Odin the exiled.5764:

Personally, i don’t see why they added this. Simpler solution is just playing with the crafting tables again. All leather used to be 2 to make 1. Thick is now what 4 to make 1 and hardened 3 to make 1? They can just reset those #’s for a time, much like they did with soft wood. That used to be 2 logs per plank, then to 4, then to 3, then back to 2. In another 6 months or so watch it go back up to 3 or 4 logs per plank. They can do the same with leather. Would avoid the “need” to really farm it or spend hours to farm for minimal gain.

Might also provide a little extra income for them. If they changed to this method, where they changed the requirement from time to time to help nudge the market, it might encourage people to craft when it’s smaller and stock up, which means they might be inclined to pick up some more storage space to weather the storms.

Astralporing.1957:

Obtena.7952:

Well, that’s not what anchored means so … all the promotable mats are anchored by their subordinates to some degree, especially if they are hard to get in the open world. If T6 leather was only available through promotion, it would be completely anchored by the availability of the sub-T6 leathers.

But it isn’t available only through promotion – and you forget that currently the t5 leather is the least important component of the promotion recipe.

It matters little if it’s not the only way, there is still a dependence there and market will ensure that relationship exists AS LONG AS T6 leather is still seen as a material worth trading. It’s off little consequence to the topic anyways … the leather farm isn’t designed to fill your boots with T6 leather. Anyone that though so was just delusional. If you want to maximize your T6, you convert.

ich.7086:

People that only farm liquid gold to buy things instead of actually farming things only increase prices. Sure it’s a rational economic thing to do since you have the best output/time ratio but it create low supply/high demand on basic things which quickly inflate in prices because people are wealthy.

And? It’s still the reasonable thing to do. And inflation happening is not on players’ but on Anet, and it’s devs that would need to do something about it.

ich.7086:

Leather isn’t just worth enough for people going specificly for it at its current drop rate but enough for people to whine about.

As long as the leather farms are so inefficient compared to gold ones, it will never reach that point (because if the inflation were to advance so far, TP market would require intervention long before it might actually happen).

Obtena.7952:

If you want to maximize your T6, you convert.

No. If you want to maximize your t6, you farm gold and buy them. Converting is a loss.

Pendantics. I won’t argue the what is more efficient or not with you; it’s not the point of the thread. Cost for some is not the primary factor in deciding to convert or not, so even at a loss, some will take advantage of the option, especially if they have more leather than they need.

The fact remains that the leather farm was not intended to flood people with T6 leather, like the OP implies. Anyone that thought so has some highly unrealistic expectations.

That whole area of the map looks like unfinished business to me. It reminds me of the same northeast map corner in Hirathi Highlands. You did not go there solo unless in a group or if an event was going on just like like the temples in Orr.

I would not be surprised if the area gets further developed in later patches with events etc.

I can’t really believe they created that area and all of those mob behaviors just for a leather farm.

Obtena.7952:

Pendantics. I won’t argue the what is more efficient or not with you; it’s not the point of the thread. Cost for some is not the primary factor in deciding to convert or not, so even at a loss, some will take advantage of the option, especially if they have more leather than they need.

The fact remains that the leather farm was not intended to flood people with T6 leather, like the OP implies. Anyone that thought so has some highly unrealistic expectations.

The OP implied nothing of the sort.

Astralporing.1957:

ich.7086:

People that only farm liquid gold to buy things instead of actually farming things only increase prices. Sure it’s a rational economic thing to do since you have the best output/time ratio but it create low supply/high demand on basic things which quickly inflate in prices because people are wealthy.

And? It’s still the reasonable thing to do. And inflation happening is not on players’ but on Anet, and it’s devs that would need to do something about it.

Yeah it’s still the “reasonable” thing to do but doing that only makes the situation worse for everyone. Leather will rise until reach a price where it’s better to farm it directly than farming gold and buying on TP and i see nothing wrong on that.

No. Inflation is not because Anet. It’s an inherent mecanism with a free market and MMO economy. All liquid gold farmers contribute nothing in supply, increase the demand and decrease the gold value. Yeah, totally Anet’s fault.

Astralporing.1957:

ich.7086:

Leather isn’t just worth enough for people going specificly for it at its current drop rate but enough for people to whine about.

As long as the leather farms are so inefficient compared to gold ones, it will never reach that point (because if the inflation were to advance so far, TP market would require intervention long before it might actually happen).

And why the TP market would require intervention for something the players did on purpose ? I failed to see why Anet should “fix” something when players are just hurting themselves. The game isn’t made for farm, leather (like any others mat) is the kind of thing you gather more quickly on actually playing the game than farming. The new farm is a just a way for Anet to tell you : you wanted a farm here it is, stop complaining. I really beginning to think that Anet should nerf gold incomes to make people think about their behaviour.

Astralporing.1957:

Obtena.7952:

If you want to maximize your T6, you convert.

No. If you want to maximize your t6, you farm gold and buy them. Converting is a loss.

It’s not a loss gold wise.

How would one go about farming liquid gold without also adding to the supply of mats? Everything I do in game results in drops, which are (of course) salvaged for mats and solld on the TP. Ive not seen any activity which produces only liquid gold and vendor trash.

I haven’t had much trouble with this. You’re almost guaranteed to die if you take this from the bottom up. But if you start from the top by doing the peach you can get most of the chests solo from the top down.

I still think we could use leather and cloth nodes scattered through the world, appearing on enemy camps. This farm results in lots of random leather, but we need a way to aim for specific types of leather.

Nodes would be that way.

Leather racks and clotheslines would do it perfectly, and enemy camps that usually have no or few other nodes would be the best spot for them, like a bandit, separatist or renegade camp, an inquest lab, a flame legion castrum, a sons of svanir lodge, a grawl settlement, etc.

Even this farm spot would be the perfect place for a single “Large Hardened Leather rack” that can be gathered 3 times every day.

What about the tool? That was already decided when they added WvW and Guild Hall cloth and leather nodes: you use the Harvesting sickle to cut the leather and cloth off the node.

What about the model of the nodes? They were already made for the home instances. Change the colors with multiple textures, you get the different tier nodes.

Just a thought, and I am sure I’m not the first one to suggest this, buy why don’t they just make it so that when you kill an animal, you get a guaranteed hide drop appropriate for the zone you are in, let’s call these new drops Segments. A certain number of Segments would create today’s Sections which are then refined into Squares. They would just need to determine how many Segments would be appropriate for a Section, maybe 250? So killing 250 T6 zone animals would result in 1 T6 Section. They could still keep the existing RNG tables on other drops, but this would at least give players a guaranteed way to gather mats similar to ore and wood.

Similarly, killing a mob that wears clothes should drop a similar Segment of cloth that would be refined into today’s Scraps.

Esty.8352:

Just a thought, and I am sure I’m not the first one to suggest this, buy why don’t they just make it so that when you kill an animal, you get a guaranteed hide drop appropriate for the zone you are in, let’s call these new drops Segments. A certain number of Segments would create today’s Sections which are then refined into Squares. They would just need to determine how many Segments would be appropriate for a Section, maybe 250? So killing 250 T6 zone animals would result in 1 T6 Section. They could still keep the existing RNG tables on other drops, but this would at least give players a guaranteed way to gather mats similar to ore and wood.

Similarly, killing a mob that wears clothes should drop a similar Segment of cloth that would be refined into today’s Scraps.

This is not far off how GW2 was in the first few months. My first character was a ranger and leathercrafter and as I leveled I farmed all my leather from level-appropriate animals, which dropped it reliably, and made my own armor. I remember farming drakes and skelks specifically on multiple maps for the necessary drops.

When I came to equip alts I would farm mats with my level 80 ranger. For quite a while mob drop tables were linked to the level of the map they were on not the player who killed them. I would go to the relevant level map as a level 80, the game would adjust my level to the map and I would farm what I needed. As more players hit the level cap, though, there were complaints about this mechanic because at that time there wasn’t much use for any mats below T5 and T6 other than for characters leveling up and Level 80s wanted drops their own level all the time.

ANet then changed the mechanics so that mob tables pulled from the level of the character not the level of the map. Maybe it’s time to go back to how it was four years ago…

While it appears to be a shame that the farm isn’t what people had hoped, maybe some of you guys are taking this a little too hard. A mental calculation I perform when playing games is, is what I’m doing fun? If so, great! Keep doing it. However, if it is not fun, why am I doing it? So OK, I need leather, and this is a leather farm but, since leather can also be purchased with gold, maybe I can farm gold more efficiently (and a key point – in a more enjoyable way) doing something else.

Only way the leather situation is being fixed is by reverting the change to salvaging rates of it… which occurred when HOT was introduced. Easy fix up done deal it wasn’t amazing back then and it probably won’t do too much right now (but possibly at least cut the price in half which it needs severely but this is a total guess)

LinhZeri.6412:

Only way the leather situation is being fixed is by reverting the change to salvaging rates of it… which occurred when HOT was introduced. Easy fix up done deal it wasn’t amazing back then and it probably won’t do too much right now (but possibly at least cut the price in half which it needs severely but this is a total guess)

This. It is almost ridiculous that gossamer patch is made mostly not with gossamer, but with hardened leather. Not to say that medium armor classes have to spent a ton more money on their gear than heavy or light guys. 5/5 gossamer/leather ratio in patches would be just right. But they will never do it, cause it will be admitting their mistake.

Tiny Doom.4380:

Esty.8352:

Just a thought, and I am sure I’m not the first one to suggest this, buy why don’t they just make it so that when you kill an animal, you get a guaranteed hide drop appropriate for the zone you are in, let’s call these new drops Segments. A certain number of Segments would create today’s Sections which are then refined into Squares. They would just need to determine how many Segments would be appropriate for a Section, maybe 250? So killing 250 T6 zone animals would result in 1 T6 Section. They could still keep the existing RNG tables on other drops, but this would at least give players a guaranteed way to gather mats similar to ore and wood.

Similarly, killing a mob that wears clothes should drop a similar Segment of cloth that would be refined into today’s Scraps.

This is not far off how GW2 was in the first few months. My first character was a ranger and leathercrafter and as I leveled I farmed all my leather from level-appropriate animals, which dropped it reliably, and made my own armor. I remember farming drakes and skelks specifically on multiple maps for the necessary drops.

When I came to equip alts I would farm mats with my level 80 ranger. For quite a while mob drop tables were linked to the level of the map they were on not the player who killed them. I would go to the relevant level map as a level 80, the game would adjust my level to the map and I would farm what I needed. As more players hit the level cap, though, there were complaints about this mechanic because at that time there wasn’t much use for any mats below T5 and T6 other than for characters leveling up and Level 80s wanted drops their own level all the time.

ANet then changed the mechanics so that mob tables pulled from the level of the character not the level of the map. Maybe it’s time to go back to how it was four years ago…

Another idea I just thought of would be to make these new “Segments” Account-Bound and each zone would have a vendor to convert them which would also require currency specific to that zone.

So there would be a couple ways to adjust the market by setting the right amount of Segments to convert and the amount of each currency.