Guild Wars 2

Celtic Lady.3729:

The point is, your analogy does not, in fact, actually make any kind of a logical point. It’s not a matter of eloquence. It’s a matter of logic and the ability to actually communicate.

OK.

CETheLucid.3964:

Celtic Lady.3729:

CETheLucid.3964:

But you know? You are right about the legendary weapons. Indeed, they broke their word on being able to offer 16 new legendary weapons.

You know, kind of the same way a parent may break their promise in getting their kid the number of clementines they requested.

“Sorry sweety, you asked for 16 but I could only get you 4, I’m thinking we need to invest in more foodstap—”
“THEN I WILL BURN DOWN OUR HOME AND CURSE YOUR EXISTENCE”

It’s not a good analogy. A parent/child relationship is not even remotely similar to a business/consumer relationship.

Comparing apples and oranges here.

Yes, literally.

But if the best you have for me is to tell me my analogy sucks, we agree. My analogy sucks. I’m trying to convey a point, not be Shakespeare.

It’s not so much about whether or not someone wants those Legendaries. It’s that it’s part of the purchase that people spent up to $100 dollars to buy. Now, after people put down their money, ANet said the part of what was purchased has been put on hold for an undetermined amount of time.

Let’s say you bought something from a shop in “real life” and part of the purchase was to be delivered later. After you bought it the company said they’re not making that item any more, they don’t know when they’ll make that item, and you are not going to get a refund. Now do you see what the fuss is about?

Celtic Lady.3729:

Obtena.7952:

CETheLucid.3964:

Celtic Lady.3729:

CETheLucid.3964:

But you know? You are right about the legendary weapons. Indeed, they broke their word on being able to offer 16 new legendary weapons.

You know, kind of the same way a parent may break their promise in getting their kid the number of clementines they requested.

“Sorry sweety, you asked for 16 but I could only get you 4, I’m thinking we need to invest in more foodstap—”
“THEN I WILL BURN DOWN OUR HOME AND CURSE YOUR EXISTENCE”

It’s not a good analogy. A parent/child relationship is not even remotely similar to a business/consumer relationship.

Comparing apples and oranges here.

Yes, literally.

But if the best you have for me is to tell me my analogy sucks, we agree. My analogy sucks. I’m trying to convey a point, not be Shakespeare.

True, that analogy sucks. This one is better:

Anet: Hey guys, if we don’t realign our resources to deliver high value content to you, this whole thing you know as GW2 won’t exist in a few short years.

Ok, before you say it, that’s not an analogy but it is true.

So, you think that GW2 is flirting with bankruptcy, and that’s why they’ve decided not to deliver all their HoT content?

I wouldn’t go that far because I just don’t think it’s there yet, but I think we have all seen games shut down for various reasons and I don’t think GW2 is immune to those same reasons. From what I’ve seen, Anet is testing new waters on many things and some of those things were in HoT and the tests didn’t do too well. Time to change course or yes, I think they will be in trouble.

IMO, Legendaries in general, are a failure so I’m not surprised by the decision and I won’t be surprised if they don’t come back, or come back in a significantly different form. The concept, the implementation, even some of the designs. I think the only idea they got right was having footfalls/effects.

theyre giving out 400k to people for winning pvp tournies and they get under 2k views on twitch and 300 on their lil streams.

that money could be put towards more employees to make a better product, but they are BENT on esports because of the general success esports is having. This game does not have a draw, it is what it is, it just doesnt. Ths is one of the more popular MMOs but its pvp, while it is good, just doesnt attract people to watch it and they dont market the pvp well at all. It doesnt help that they made the base game free so people could hop into pvp for free and the elite specs absolutely rip the old specs apart, it actually turns people off

Just a flesh wound.3589:

CETheLucid.3964:

Celtic Lady.3729:

CETheLucid.3964:

But you know? You are right about the legendary weapons. Indeed, they broke their word on being able to offer 16 new legendary weapons.

You know, kind of the same way a parent may break their promise in getting their kid the number of clementines they requested.

“Sorry sweety, you asked for 16 but I could only get you 4, I’m thinking we need to invest in more foodstap—”
“THEN I WILL BURN DOWN OUR HOME AND CURSE YOUR EXISTENCE”

It’s not a good analogy. A parent/child relationship is not even remotely similar to a business/consumer relationship.

Comparing apples and oranges here.

Yes, literally.

But if the best you have for me is to tell me my analogy sucks, we agree. My analogy sucks. I’m trying to convey a point, not be Shakespeare.

It’s not so much about whether or not someone wants those Legendaries. It’s that it’s part of the purchase that people spent up to $100 dollars to buy. Now, after people put down their money, ANet said the part of what was purchased has been put on hold for an undetermined amount of time.

Let’s say you bought something from a shop in “real life” and part of the purchase was to be delivered later. After you bought it the company said they’re not making that item any more, they don’t know when they’ll make that item, and you are not going to get a refund. Now do you see what the fuss is about?

If I wanted a refund from Anet, I could get it one way or another. Chargebacks are a thing. Legendary’s being put on hold aren’t taking me to the point of wanting a refund.

If others feel differently by all means. I’d try to be a decent person and contact support first, but that’s me.

They’ve helped folks out with things like that in the past and as passionate as some people here seem to be about it, I’m sure they could work something out.

CETheLucid.3964:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

CETheLucid.3964:

Celtic Lady.3729:

CETheLucid.3964:

But you know? You are right about the legendary weapons. Indeed, they broke their word on being able to offer 16 new legendary weapons.

You know, kind of the same way a parent may break their promise in getting their kid the number of clementines they requested.

“Sorry sweety, you asked for 16 but I could only get you 4, I’m thinking we need to invest in more foodstap—”
“THEN I WILL BURN DOWN OUR HOME AND CURSE YOUR EXISTENCE”

It’s not a good analogy. A parent/child relationship is not even remotely similar to a business/consumer relationship.

Comparing apples and oranges here.

Yes, literally.

But if the best you have for me is to tell me my analogy sucks, we agree. My analogy sucks. I’m trying to convey a point, not be Shakespeare.

It’s not so much about whether or not someone wants those Legendaries. It’s that it’s part of the purchase that people spent up to $100 dollars to buy. Now, after people put down their money, ANet said the part of what was purchased has been put on hold for an undetermined amount of time.

Let’s say you bought something from a shop in “real life” and part of the purchase was to be delivered later. After you bought it the company said they’re not making that item any more, they don’t know when they’ll make that item, and you are not going to get a refund. Now do you see what the fuss is about?

If I wanted a refund from Anet, I could get it one way or another. Chargebacks are a thing. Legendary’s being put on hold aren’t taking me to the point of wanting a refund.

If others feel differently by all means. I’d try to be a decent person and contact support first, but that’s me.

They’ve helped folks out with things like that in the past and as passionate as some people here seem to be about it, I’m sure they could work something out.

It’s not just that, this sort of thing ripples down if not reversed. The next expansion they sell, this is going to be brought up over and over and over. If people know that ANet can take their money and then refuse to provide all that was paid for, then people are going to hesitate to prebuy or buy it. This could reasonably be expected to hurt sales of future expansions if people do not feel that the company is trustworthy and that items bought will be delivered.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

CETheLucid.3964:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

CETheLucid.3964:

Celtic Lady.3729:

CETheLucid.3964:

But you know? You are right about the legendary weapons. Indeed, they broke their word on being able to offer 16 new legendary weapons.

You know, kind of the same way a parent may break their promise in getting their kid the number of clementines they requested.

“Sorry sweety, you asked for 16 but I could only get you 4, I’m thinking we need to invest in more foodstap—”
“THEN I WILL BURN DOWN OUR HOME AND CURSE YOUR EXISTENCE”

It’s not a good analogy. A parent/child relationship is not even remotely similar to a business/consumer relationship.

Comparing apples and oranges here.

Yes, literally.

But if the best you have for me is to tell me my analogy sucks, we agree. My analogy sucks. I’m trying to convey a point, not be Shakespeare.

It’s not so much about whether or not someone wants those Legendaries. It’s that it’s part of the purchase that people spent up to $100 dollars to buy. Now, after people put down their money, ANet said the part of what was purchased has been put on hold for an undetermined amount of time.

Let’s say you bought something from a shop in “real life” and part of the purchase was to be delivered later. After you bought it the company said they’re not making that item any more, they don’t know when they’ll make that item, and you are not going to get a refund. Now do you see what the fuss is about?

If I wanted a refund from Anet, I could get it one way or another. Chargebacks are a thing. Legendary’s being put on hold aren’t taking me to the point of wanting a refund.

If others feel differently by all means. I’d try to be a decent person and contact support first, but that’s me.

They’ve helped folks out with things like that in the past and as passionate as some people here seem to be about it, I’m sure they could work something out.

It’s not just that, this sort of thing ripples down if not reversed. The next expansion they sell, this is going to be brought up over and over and over. If people know that ANet can take their money and then refuse to provide all that was paid for, then people are going to hesitate to prebuy or buy it. This could reasonably be expected to hurt sales of future expansions if people do not feel that the company is trustworthy and that items bought will be delivered.

That’s a legitimate concern.

Shall they be candid and transparent about these things given the response here? People want it both ways.

“Anet needs to be less vague and should make concrete promises, but we reserve the right to crucify them at any time for any deviation real or perceived to said promises!

And to hell if it’s necessary or in the best interests of the game!"

Realistically, you can make very few promises in game development about anything. Things change.

That said it is a fair criticism about the number of legendary weps as that is what they advertised on shipping and it won’t be arriving as planned.

There’s a well intentioned reason for this as per the OP, but it’s well established by now the community don’t give any kittens.

CETheLucid.3964:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

CETheLucid.3964:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

CETheLucid.3964:

Celtic Lady.3729:

CETheLucid.3964:

But you know? You are right about the legendary weapons. Indeed, they broke their word on being able to offer 16 new legendary weapons.

You know, kind of the same way a parent may break their promise in getting their kid the number of clementines they requested.

“Sorry sweety, you asked for 16 but I could only get you 4, I’m thinking we need to invest in more foodstap—”
“THEN I WILL BURN DOWN OUR HOME AND CURSE YOUR EXISTENCE”

It’s not a good analogy. A parent/child relationship is not even remotely similar to a business/consumer relationship.

Comparing apples and oranges here.

Yes, literally.

But if the best you have for me is to tell me my analogy sucks, we agree. My analogy sucks. I’m trying to convey a point, not be Shakespeare.

It’s not so much about whether or not someone wants those Legendaries. It’s that it’s part of the purchase that people spent up to $100 dollars to buy. Now, after people put down their money, ANet said the part of what was purchased has been put on hold for an undetermined amount of time.

Let’s say you bought something from a shop in “real life” and part of the purchase was to be delivered later. After you bought it the company said they’re not making that item any more, they don’t know when they’ll make that item, and you are not going to get a refund. Now do you see what the fuss is about?

If I wanted a refund from Anet, I could get it one way or another. Chargebacks are a thing. Legendary’s being put on hold aren’t taking me to the point of wanting a refund.

If others feel differently by all means. I’d try to be a decent person and contact support first, but that’s me.

They’ve helped folks out with things like that in the past and as passionate as some people here seem to be about it, I’m sure they could work something out.

It’s not just that, this sort of thing ripples down if not reversed. The next expansion they sell, this is going to be brought up over and over and over. If people know that ANet can take their money and then refuse to provide all that was paid for, then people are going to hesitate to prebuy or buy it. This could reasonably be expected to hurt sales of future expansions if people do not feel that the company is trustworthy and that items bought will be delivered.

That’s a legitimate concern.

Shall they be candid and transparent about these things given the response here? People want it both ways.

“Anet needs to be less vague and should make concrete promises, but we reserve the right to crucify them at any time for any deviation real or perceived to said promises!

And to hell if it’s necessary or in the best interests of the game!"

Realistically, you can make very few promises in game development about anything. Things change.

That said it is a fair criticism about the number of legendary weps as that is what they advertised on shipping and it won’t be arriving as planned.

There’s a well intentioned reason for this as per the OP, but it’s well established by now the community don’t give any kittens.

if it’s my money and if I pay for something and company doesn’t deliver a product because it’s to their benefit not to do so, then maybe I won’t get a refund if the barriers to getting a refund are to high (account closure for example). But that doesn’t mean I feel that the company had the right to take my money and not deliver, just in order to benefit itself.

You’re arguing that because it’s a benefit to the game, it’s ok. I don’t feel the same since a company in “real life” can’t refuse to provide something paid for with the argument it’s a benefit to them not to do so.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

It’s not just that, this sort of thing ripples down if not reversed. The next expansion they sell, this is going to be brought up over and over and over. If people know that ANet can take their money and then refuse to provide all that was paid for, then people are going to hesitate to prebuy or buy it. This could reasonably be expected to hurt sales of future expansions if people do not feel that the company is trustworthy and that items bought will be delivered.

Doubt so, the GW/GW2 line of titles will always have its fanboys and will continue to do so. Even if ANet didn’t deliver at launch, they’d then somehow work to get the game back up again. Personally, I do appreciate that continuous effort, but I think it’s more responsible to ship based on what was promised since that’s what customers expected.

Remember GW2 at launch? They will lose players, but those get replaced by new ones.

I still am pretty bewildered by their decision. Also, if Anet is doing so well financially and is in a healthy state, would it hurt to hire a few more contract developers evev to just get past this hurdle?

This is what makes me think this game is not in a healthy state and there is a LOT more going on that we are not being told about.

If this game dies, then I’m done with MMO’s in general.

So no responses? seems they’re just going “To hell with it” and just leave this fester for a while and let old players leave? Congratulations, milestone reached, community destroyed.

CETheLucid.3964:

Things change.

Things changing BEFORE money has been paid and taken = okay
Things changing AFTER money has been paid and taken for it = not okay.

Change itself really isn’t the problem here.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

if it’s my money and if I pay for something and company doesn’t deliver a product because it’s to their benefit not to do so, then maybe I won’t get a refund if the barriers to getting a refund are to high (account closure for example). But that doesn’t mean I feel that the company had the right to take my money and not deliver, just in order to benefit itself.

You’re arguing that because it’s a benefit to the game, it’s ok. I don’t feel the same since a company in “real life” can’t refuse to provide something paid for with the argument it’s a benefit to them not to do so.

It’s… not though? I mean can you come up with some benefit to ticking off your user base? Do you think they intentionally went out of their way to tick everyone off?

“Hey Mike, wanna have a laugh? Put legendary weps on hold!”

Celtic Lady.3729:

Things changing BEFORE money has been paid and taken = okay
Things changing AFTER money has been paid and taken for it = not okay.

Change itself really isn’t the problem here.

OK. They’re not denying anyone recourse. If you feel that strongly about it, you can pursue it.

Rising Blade.9206:

So no responses? seems they’re just going “To hell with it” and just leave this fester for a while and let old players leave? Congratulations, milestone reached, community destroyed.

It doesn’t really surprise me that the Red Post Brigade has fallen back and retreated to their home base. They’re probably trying to hunker down and wait it out, hoping that they don’t have to come back in and — gasp! — actually apologize to the player base (It’s such a rare event that I can only imagine it must cause them actual physical pain) for taking their money and changing the terms of the transaction.

When the community is upset about something, most of the red post responses on these forums are either defensive, out of touch, or just plain arrogant. They do not admit fault. They do not accept blame. And they most certainly do not apologize.

Honestly, the decision to communicate the truth about their changing stance on legendary weapons was the right thing to do, but that doesn’t absolve them from the responsibility of having to take the fallout from the initial decision.

To those people saying “See, this is why they don’t communicate with us!”, I would like to point out that good communication is an investment that yields long-term rewards, not short-term rewards. You can’t just come out, drop a bomb about canceling features that you have already advertised and accepted money for, and then go back into hiding and say “Well, I tried to communicate and they got mad!”

Anet seems to think that we should just read their posts and nod our heads in agreement. They certainly don’t respond well to people questioning their judgement or their statements, as is evident by the complete lack of response to the obvious question that many people have been asking: “Why don’t you take some of the 70 people you have working on the next expansion instead of the only 6 people who are working on legendary weapons?” I would be surprised if they even tried to answer that question, for rather obvious reasons.

In any case, In order to reap the benefits of good communication, you have to do it consistently. Then, when you have built up the trust and goodwill of your player base, they are much more likely to be understanding when you have to deliver bad news. But after my initial positive reaction to seeing Mo willing to communicate, I see that it’s back to business as usual.

CETheLucid.3964:

OK. They’re not denying anyone recourse. If you feel that strongly about it, you can pursue it.

An ethical company wouldn’t make you pursue recourse; if they knew they had failed to deliver on their end, they would take the initiative on their own to make things right for their customer in order to generate goodwill and return business.

CETheLucid.3964:

OK. They’re not denying anyone recourse. If you feel that strongly about it, you can pursue it.

I shouldn’t have to. They should be giving customers what they paid for.

Besides, you can’t get “recourse” as you call it if you want to keep your account, so that’s not an option for everyone.

minbariguy.7504:

CETheLucid.3964:

OK. They’re not denying anyone recourse. If you feel that strongly about it, you can pursue it.

An ethical company wouldn’t make you pursue recourse; if they knew they had failed to deliver on their end, they would take the initiative on their own to make things right for their customer in order to generate goodwill and return business.

Mike O Brien.4613:

Last year we talked about plans to gradually build out a second set of legendary weapons through live content updates. That’s a big responsibility. We have a team of six developers working on that, who could work on it for years to come.

As game director I have to make tough trade-offs. One thing I believe is that we have to focus on the core game first before taking on additional responsibilities. I wrote in the Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto in 2010 that our vision was to create a living, dynamic world, where there’s always something to do. Let’s ensure we succeed on that front.

So, after shipping Chuka and Champawat, I’ve asked that we indefinitely suspend work on new legendary weapons. This team of developers will instead shift their efforts back to Living World style content, building new journeys and events for everyone to participate in.

I know this will be a controversial decision. I’ll hang out with you here on the forums for a little while today to discuss it. And I’m always available by email.

Mo

All you can do to make them hear your dissatisfaction is stop playing the game or stop buying gems. If they can go as far as to not deliver things they actually got paid to do then there is little hope that they actually care bout anything else than getting your money.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Besides, you can’t get “recourse” as you call it if you want to keep your account, so that’s not an option for everyone.

Sure you can. What does it matter if you feel you can’t trust them and you’ve been cheated? Just take your business elsewhere.

If you can’t accept what they’re trying to do and you feel irreversibly wronged, why continue with them?

CETheLucid.3964:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Besides, you can’t get “recourse” as you call it if you want to keep your account, so that’s not an option for everyone.

Sure you can. What does it matter if you feel you can’t trust them and you’ve been cheated? Just take your business elsewhere.

If you can’t accept what they’re trying to do and you feel irreversibly wronged, why continue with them?

It’s already been stated by Anet that if you want a refund or partial refund for HoT, they’ll close your account. If a player doesn’t want the account closed, they’re not going to try to get a refund.

CETheLucid.3964:

minbariguy.7504:

CETheLucid.3964:

OK. They’re not denying anyone recourse. If you feel that strongly about it, you can pursue it.

An ethical company wouldn’t make you pursue recourse; if they knew they had failed to deliver on their end, they would take the initiative on their own to make things right for their customer in order to generate goodwill and return business.

Mike O Brien.4613:

Last year we talked about plans to gradually build out a second set of legendary weapons through live content updates. That’s a big responsibility. We have a team of six developers working on that, who could work on it for years to come.

As game director I have to make tough trade-offs. One thing I believe is that we have to focus on the core game first before taking on additional responsibilities. I wrote in the Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto in 2010 that our vision was to create a living, dynamic world, where there’s always something to do. Let’s ensure we succeed on that front.

So, after shipping Chuka and Champawat, I’ve asked that we indefinitely suspend work on new legendary weapons. This team of developers will instead shift their efforts back to Living World style content, building new journeys and events for everyone to participate in.

I know this will be a controversial decision. I’ll hang out with you here on the forums for a little while today to discuss it. And I’m always available by email.

Mo

Annnnd…I see nothing in that statement that pertains to the part of my post that you underlined. There is no attempt there to make things right for the people that are upset. Just an announcement that legendary weapons are on “indefinite suspension” and that you can pursue recourse by talking to him on the forums for a little while or emailing him.

CETheLucid.3964:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

if it’s my money and if I pay for something and company doesn’t deliver a product because it’s to their benefit not to do so, then maybe I won’t get a refund if the barriers to getting a refund are to high (account closure for example). But that doesn’t mean I feel that the company had the right to take my money and not deliver, just in order to benefit itself.

You’re arguing that because it’s a benefit to the game, it’s ok. I don’t feel the same since a company in “real life” can’t refuse to provide something paid for with the argument it’s a benefit to them not to do so.

It’s… not though? I mean can you come up with some benefit to ticking off your user base? Do you think they intentionally went out of their way to tick everyone off?

“Hey Mike, wanna have a laugh? Put legendary weps on hold!”

I see you still fail to understand.

The answer to that question is no. I think they made a mistake in judgement.

I must say though, it’s interesting as well as informative to speak to someone who doesn’t understand that taking someone’s money and then telling them that part of what they bought is no longer being made and that there is no timeline on restarting production is ok, or that it’s ok because it’s a benefit to them to do so.

Xillllix.3485:

All you can do to make them hear your dissatisfaction is stop playing the game or stop buying gems. If they can go as far as to not deliver things they actually got paid to do then there is little hope that they actually care bout anything else than money.

This isn’t necessarily true. I was here in the thick of it for the HoT package pricing protest (hey, that’s kinda catchy). Those of us that thought the packages should be organized differently and include things it didn’t came to the forums and Reddit and expressed our views (like a lot of us are doing now) and they apologized and changed their packages.

Sometimes, expressing your opinion about something they’ve done actually gets results.

CETheLucid.3964:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Besides, you can’t get “recourse” as you call it if you want to keep your account, so that’s not an option for everyone.

Sure you can. What does it matter if you feel you can’t trust them and you’ve been cheated? Just take your business elsewhere.

If you can’t accept what they’re trying to do and you feel irreversibly wronged, why continue with them?

So you’re saying that an acceptable recourse that would make things right for the customer and generate goodwill and return business involves permanently closing the customer’s account?

I’m detecting a slight note of insincerity here.

Mike O Brien.4613:

Hi all,

I know this will be a controversial decision. I’ll hang out with you here on the forums for a little while today to discuss it. And I’m always available by email.

Mo

Did 2 responses and bailed…40 pages later LMAO

Fool me once, shame on me; teach a man to fool me, and I’ll be fooled for the rest of my life

Grats on getting fifty more bucks out of me, though. Last time that’ll happen

Mitch.4781:

Mike O Brien.4613:

Hi all,

I know this will be a controversial decision. I’ll hang out with you here on the forums for a little while today to discuss it. And I’m always available by email.

Mo

Did 2 responses and bailed…40 pages later LMAO

Well, he could be responding to all those emails we are sending him

Celtic Lady.3729:

Xillllix.3485:

All you can do to make them hear your dissatisfaction is stop playing the game or stop buying gems. If they can go as far as to not deliver things they actually got paid to do then there is little hope that they actually care bout anything else than money.

This isn’t necessarily true. I was here in the thick of it for the HoT package pricing protest (hey, that’s kinda catchy). Those of us that thought the packages should be organized differently and include things it didn’t came to the forums and Reddit and expressed our views (like a lot of us are doing now) and they apologized and changed their packages.

Sometimes, expressing your opinion about something they’ve done actually gets results.

While that is true, I think it’s worth noting that they still used the situation to their advantage by only changing the packages for people who agreed to pre-purchase HoT.

In retrospect, knowing now the issues they were having finishing content for this expansion, it suddenly makes a lot more sense why they were in such a hurry to get people to buy it before they had to admit how little was in it.

Celtic Lady.3729:

CETheLucid.3964:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Besides, you can’t get “recourse” as you call it if you want to keep your account, so that’s not an option for everyone.

Sure you can. What does it matter if you feel you can’t trust them and you’ve been cheated? Just take your business elsewhere.

If you can’t accept what they’re trying to do and you feel irreversibly wronged, why continue with them?

It’s already been stated by Anet that if you want a refund or partial refund for HoT, they’ll close your account. If a player doesn’t want the account closed, they’re not going to try to get a refund.

Then the player doesn’t feel as strongly about the subject as the bluster might indicate.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

I see you still fail to understand.

The answer to that question is no. I think they made a mistake in judgement.

I must say though, it’s interesting as well as informative to speak to someone who doesn’t understand that taking someone’s money and then telling them that part of what they bought is no longer being made and that there is no timeline on restarting production is ok, or that it’s ok because it’s a benefit to them to do so.

You’re taking a little liberty there in thinking there is no trade off for the exchange of putting legendary weps on hold, don’t you think?

You know considering MO explains why. But your opinion is noted. And we differ.

Anet hasn’t given me a reason to distrust them just yet and I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt with this decision.

Legendary weapons aren’t that big a deal to me. But I can better understand your feelings if they were very important to you.

You should do what you feel is right.

CETheLucid.3964:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Besides, you can’t get “recourse” as you call it if you want to keep your account, so that’s not an option for everyone.

Sure you can. What does it matter if you feel you can’t trust them and you’ve been cheated? Just take your business elsewhere.

If you can’t accept what they’re trying to do and you feel irreversibly wronged, why continue with them?

/shrug

If they don’t reverse it, I’ll get my own “refund”

I’ve been buying gems on a close to monthly basis with real money and I’ll decide how much of a “refund” that’s due me. Then I’ll stop buying gems with money till I get my money back. With that, I’ll have my “refund” and my account too. After that, I’ll be very careful about my purchases from ANet and next expansion, when they come around hyping it up, I won’t be holding back on any scepticism when they say “pay now and we’ll provide this later.” I’ll be one of those pointing out the hazards of “paying now to get later.”

And then I’ll consider us even.

minbariguy.7504:

In retrospect, knowing now the issues they were having finishing content for this expansion, it suddenly makes a lot more sense why they were in such a hurry to get people to buy it before they had to admit how little was in it.

I did think that they rather exaggerated some aspects of their content before release. For instance, I didn’t find the maps to be quite what it sounded like it was going to be. Four maps, all three levels. In reality, the only map that felt truly three levels to me was VB. And even then, the canopy level was minimal because it was mostly air and empty space. Most of the maps, at best, feel like two levels to me or maybe more like one and a half levels.

Anyway, HoT always felt like a very small expansion or a large content update to me. I figure the next expansion will be similar in size or smaller since they won’t have all the “systems” to add that they added with HoT since they’re already implemented.

minbariguy.7504:

CETheLucid.3964:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Besides, you can’t get “recourse” as you call it if you want to keep your account, so that’s not an option for everyone.

Sure you can. What does it matter if you feel you can’t trust them and you’ve been cheated? Just take your business elsewhere.

If you can’t accept what they’re trying to do and you feel irreversibly wronged, why continue with them?

So you’re saying that an acceptable recourse that would make things right for the customer and generate goodwill and return business involves permanently closing the customer’s account?

I’m detecting a slight note of insincerity here.

If I put myself in the position that I feel Anet has irreparably betrayed me, why the hell would I care about goodwill or return business?

Close my account, give me my money, good-bye. All there is to it for me as a consumer.

What Anet should do to build goodwill in this situation that they’re in is do their best to explain why they had to put legendary weps on hold and hope the community can—lol that didn’t work.

CETheLucid.3964:

Then the player doesn’t feel as strongly about the subject as the bluster might indicate.

This doesn’t even make sense. There is no logic to the idea that we as players don’t feel strongly about their decision unless we’re willing to permanently trash our accounts.

lol whut?

If we wanted to just walk away from the game, we wouldn’t bother to express our desire to see them keep their word and give us what we paid for. You’re just not making sense here.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

CETheLucid.3964:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Besides, you can’t get “recourse” as you call it if you want to keep your account, so that’s not an option for everyone.

Sure you can. What does it matter if you feel you can’t trust them and you’ve been cheated? Just take your business elsewhere.

If you can’t accept what they’re trying to do and you feel irreversibly wronged, why continue with them?

/shrug

If they don’t reverse it, I’ll get my own “refund”

I’ve been buying gems on a close to monthly basis with real money and I’ll decide how much of a “refund” that’s due me. Then I’ll stop buying gems with money till I get my money back. With that, I’ll have my “refund” and my account too. After that, I’ll be very careful about my purchases from ANet and next expansion, when they come around hyping it up, I won’t be holding back on any scepticism when they say “pay now and we’ll provide this later.” I’ll be one of those pointing out the hazards of “paying now to get later.”

And then I’ll consider us even.

That’s the most wishy-washy, passive aggressive recourse I’ve read considering you can get a much more concrete return.

But if it makes you feel better, who am I to judge? Have fun.

Celtic Lady.3729:

This doesn’t even make sense. There is no logic to the idea that we as players don’t feel strongly about their decision unless we’re willing to permanently trash our accounts.

lol whut?

If we wanted to just walk away from the game, we wouldn’t bother to express our desire to see them keep their word and give us what we paid for. You’re just not making sense here.

OK.

CETheLucid.3964:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

CETheLucid.3964:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Besides, you can’t get “recourse” as you call it if you want to keep your account, so that’s not an option for everyone.

Sure you can. What does it matter if you feel you can’t trust them and you’ve been cheated? Just take your business elsewhere.

If you can’t accept what they’re trying to do and you feel irreversibly wronged, why continue with them?

/shrug

If they don’t reverse it, I’ll get my own “refund”

I’ve been buying gems on a close to monthly basis with real money and I’ll decide how much of a “refund” that’s due me. Then I’ll stop buying gems with money till I get my money back. With that, I’ll have my “refund” and my account too. After that, I’ll be very careful about my purchases from ANet and next expansion, when they come around hyping it up, I won’t be holding back on any scepticism when they say “pay now and we’ll provide this later.” I’ll be one of those pointing out the hazards of “paying now to get later.”

And then I’ll consider us even.

That’s the most wishy-washy, passive aggressive recourse I’ve read considering you can get a much more concrete return.

But if it makes you feel better, who am I to judge? Have fun.

The more concrete return is account closure? Gee thanks, you’re a right pal.

If a company doesn’t do right by me, I have the right to withhold money and the right to say what I think the next time it tries to sell us stuff.

CETheLucid.3964:

minbariguy.7504:

CETheLucid.3964:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Besides, you can’t get “recourse” as you call it if you want to keep your account, so that’s not an option for everyone.

Sure you can. What does it matter if you feel you can’t trust them and you’ve been cheated? Just take your business elsewhere.

If you can’t accept what they’re trying to do and you feel irreversibly wronged, why continue with them?

So you’re saying that an acceptable recourse that would make things right for the customer and generate goodwill and return business involves permanently closing the customer’s account?

I’m detecting a slight note of insincerity here.

If I put myself in the position that I feel Anet has irreparably betrayed me, why the hell would I care about goodwill or return business?

Close my account, give me my money, good-bye. All there is to it for me as a consumer.

What Anet should do to build goodwill in this situation that they’re in is do their best to explain why they had to put legendary weps on hold and hope the community can—lol that didn’t work.

That statement works great, since you added the word “irreparably”. However, I don’t recall anyone asking how they can get recourse after being “irreparably” betrayed, do you?

Thing is, no one will know how “irreparable” the situation is until Anet actually makes a good faith effort to repair it. Which they seem to be spending exactly zero effort doing.

Celtic Lady.3729:

minbariguy.7504:

In retrospect, knowing now the issues they were having finishing content for this expansion, it suddenly makes a lot more sense why they were in such a hurry to get people to buy it before they had to admit how little was in it.

I did think that they rather exaggerated some aspects of their content before release. For instance, I didn’t find the maps to be quite what it sounded like it was going to be. Four maps, all three levels. In reality, the only map that felt truly three levels to me was VB. And even then, the canopy level was minimal because it was mostly air and empty space. Most of the maps, at best, feel like two levels to me or maybe more like one and a half levels.

Anyway, HoT always felt like a very small expansion or a large content update to me. I figure the next expansion will be similar in size or smaller since they won’t have all the “systems” to add that they added with HoT since they’re already implemented.

given how the story arc has 4 short chapters of about 3 missions each, it basically sums up to 4 packaged LS 2.5 episodes. with a 50/75/100 $ price tag. VB is the only map close to having multiple levels. The others, while having considerable size in verticality, do not have anything close to that. AB is some canopy with mostly ground level. no underground level whatsoever. 80% of TD is underground, small bits of ground level and no canopy whatsoever. DS is also ground level with small pieces of underground.

talk big, deliver nothing remotely close to that.

http://s16.postimg.org/y772f9ytx/halfpac_mo.jpg

Celtic Lady.3729:

minbariguy.7504:

In retrospect, knowing now the issues they were having finishing content for this expansion, it suddenly makes a lot more sense why they were in such a hurry to get people to buy it before they had to admit how little was in it.

I did think that they rather exaggerated some aspects of their content before release. For instance, I didn’t find the maps to be quite what it sounded like it was going to be. Four maps, all three levels. In reality, the only map that felt truly three levels to me was VB. And even then, the canopy level was minimal because it was mostly air and empty space. Most of the maps, at best, feel like two levels to me or maybe more like one and a half levels.

Anyway, HoT always felt like a very small expansion or a large content update to me. I figure the next expansion will be similar in size or smaller since they won’t have all the “systems” to add that they added with HoT since they’re already implemented.

VB – 3 layers, but you’ll spend 70% of the time on just the 2 lower ones

Basin – Only Topmost layer is at the entrance from VB, then some small spots(maybe?) around the rest of the map. The lowest layer is under the city, which isn’t that big compared to the rest of the map.

Tangled Depths – Yes, up to 4 layers. Pretty much fits what they talked about.

Dragon’s stand – one layer, with some underground caves based on events. Other than that, a dead zone unless you are doing the meta.

Serophous.9085:

Celtic Lady.3729:

minbariguy.7504:

In retrospect, knowing now the issues they were having finishing content for this expansion, it suddenly makes a lot more sense why they were in such a hurry to get people to buy it before they had to admit how little was in it.

I did think that they rather exaggerated some aspects of their content before release. For instance, I didn’t find the maps to be quite what it sounded like it was going to be. Four maps, all three levels. In reality, the only map that felt truly three levels to me was VB. And even then, the canopy level was minimal because it was mostly air and empty space. Most of the maps, at best, feel like two levels to me or maybe more like one and a half levels.

Anyway, HoT always felt like a very small expansion or a large content update to me. I figure the next expansion will be similar in size or smaller since they won’t have all the “systems” to add that they added with HoT since they’re already implemented.

VB – 3 layers, but you’ll spend 70% of the time on just the 2 lower ones

Basin – Only Topmost layer is at the entrance from VB, then some small spots(maybe?) around the rest of the map. The lowest layer is under the city, which isn’t that big compared to the rest of the map.

Tangled Depths – Yes, up to 4 layers. Pretty much fits what they talked about.

Dragon’s stand – one layer, with some underground caves based on events. Other than that, a dead zone unless you are doing the meta.

Man, I really wish DS had been a more traditional map. Trying to get 100% completion on that thing lately has been really frustrating. I don’t want to do the DS fight anymore. I just want to finish my map.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

The more concrete return is account closure? Gee thanks, you’re a right pal.

I don’t understand why this is such a concern if you feel you can’t trust the people you’re doing business with.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

If a company doesn’t do right by me, I have the right to withhold money and the right to say what I think the next time it tries to sell us stuff.

By all means.

minbariguy.7504:

That statement works great, since you added the word “irreparably”. However, I don’t recall anyone asking how they can get recourse after being “irreparably” betrayed, do you?

Thing is, no one will know how “irreparable” the situation is until Anet actually makes a good faith effort to repair it. Which they seem to be spending exactly zero effort doing.

Well, I’m glad to hear you’re not done just yet then? Here’s hoping for you.

CETheLucid.3964:

Well, I’m glad to hear you’re not done just yet then? Here’s hoping for you.

Oh, well, you know, I am quite the eternal optimist. :-)

CETheLucid.3964:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

The more concrete return is account closure? Gee thanks, you’re a right pal.

I don’t understand why this is such a concern if you feel you can’t trust the people you’re doing business with.

This is still an ongoing situation. They have yet to respond to our concerns. It can still be reversed or reparations made.

The only thing I would ask for future maps and content is to stop blocking off the maps through huge metas. I have literally only done DS twice because of this…So ina way i got even less content than I bought LMAO

The saddest thing is that it doesn’t matter what we think. Once again Anet has mad a decision against what a lot of the playerbase wants. As usual if we don’t like it, then tough. They have a habit of doing this and then letting us wear ourselves out on the forums while they stay the course.

CETheLucid.3964:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

The more concrete return is account closure? Gee thanks, you’re a right pal.

I don’t understand why this is such a concern if you feel you can’t trust the people you’re doing business with.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

If a company doesn’t do right by me, I have the right to withhold money and the right to say what I think the next time it tries to sell us stuff.

By all means.

minbariguy.7504:

That statement works great, since you added the word “irreparably”. However, I don’t recall anyone asking how they can get recourse after being “irreparably” betrayed, do you?

Thing is, no one will know how “irreparable” the situation is until Anet actually makes a good faith effort to repair it. Which they seem to be spending exactly zero effort doing.

Well, I’m glad to hear you’re not done just yet then? Here’s hoping for you.

The reason why account closure is a terrible option is because vets also paid for core gw2. How is it a fair recourse to permanently take our paid previous purchase…just because they cheated us on a second purchase? What about the scenario where we do like that content they actually did deliver on…but they owe us a refund for the parts that refuse to deliver? Why does that justify account closure at all? That’s just spiteful and petty. The facts of this matter are that the only party in the wrong here is ANET…they falsely advertised their product to get our money. The customer is 100% in the right in this situation and deserves no penalty at all. There should be two options made easily available by ANET:

1. Full refund for HoT, without any account closure…but with full removal of any HoT features.
2. Partial refund for HoT, without any account closure….with delivered features intact.

Those are fair options for recourse. Of course, they also have the option to solve this whole issue by actually being a responsible and ethical company…and providing exactly what was advertised, sold, and paid for.

LordEnki.9283:

The saddest thing is that it doesn’t matter what we think. Once again Anet has mad a decision against what a lot of the playerbase wants. As usual if we don’t like it, then tough. They have a habit of doing this and then letting us wear ourselves out on the forums while they stay the course.

This

ODB.6891:

The reason why account closure is a terrible option is because vets also paid for core gw2. How is it a fair recourse to permanently take our paid previous purchase…just because they cheated us on a second purchase? What about the scenario where we do like that content they actually did deliver on…but they owe us a refund for the parts that refuse to deliver? Why does that justify account closure at all? That’s just spiteful and petty. The facts of this matter are that the only party in the wrong here is ANET…they falsely advertised their product to get our money. The customer is 100% in the right in this situation and deserves no penalty at all. There should be two options made easily available by ANET:

1. Full refund for HoT, without any account closure…but with full removal of any HoT features.
2. Partial refund for HoT, without any account closure….with delivered features intact.

Those are fair options for recourse. Of course, they also have the option to solve this whole issue by actually being a responsible and ethical company…and providing exactly what was advertised, sold, and paid for.

Because it’s just not possible to do or I’d assume they’d allow it.

If you feel strongly enough to request a refund for the sake of HoT legendary weps but loves you that core GW2, make a free account after the fact?

Personally I have a hard time imagining someone who felt so cheated and betrayed by the company to seek recourse in a refund would even want to come back in any capacity…

But I’ve been given some funny answers to what I thought were pretty simple situations before.

So, I mean… you could do that if you wanted?
/shrug

CETheLucid.3964:

If you feel strongly enough to request a refund for the sake of HoT legendary weps but loves you that core GW2, make a free account after the fact?

/shrug

Because he doesn’t want to lose his characters, the gem store items he’s bought for them, etc, etc? Those would be good reasons not to want to start over with a free account.

Celtic Lady.3729:

CETheLucid.3964:

If you feel strongly enough to request a refund for the sake of HoT legendary weps but loves you that core GW2, make a free account after the fact?

/shrug

Because he doesn’t want to lose his characters, the gem store items he’s bought for them, etc, etc? Those would be good reasons not to want to start over with a free account.

Putting myself in the position of the wronged and betrayed, I’m still not getting.

On one hand, I show the company my displeasure by requesting a refund on HoT for legendary weapons being less than advertised on the principles of getting what I paid for.

A legit “This was false advertising and I won’t accept MO’s platitudes!” kinda guy.

On the other hand, I don’t request a refund because I like all the virtual stuff and goodies the account has that is run by the very same people I feel are treacherous and dishonest.

If I put myself in the “I’m waiting for them to say something or right this perceived wrong” camp, I guess I can understand waiting at this point.

But if you have strong feelings in this situation and you still elect to suffer through what you believe are treacherous and dishonest people?

For the sake of virtual goods you have no quarter over? Ultimately controlled by the very same people you believe are treacherous and dishonest?

You may have a problem. And I wish you the best in sorting out that dichotomy.