Guild Wars 2

I just wanted to throw this video out there, because it succinctly describes many of the reasons why Anet’s recent content additions (such as Twilight Invasion) have not been much fun:

Forum bugged out with 502 error when i posted this; please delete the clone topics, sorry.

incandescence.6784:

I just wanted to throw this video out there, because it succinctly describes many of the reasons why Anet’s recent content additions (such as Twilight Invasion) have not been much fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toVNkuCELpU

It’s easier said then done… Trust me. I’m sure that all of the AN designers know everything that was said there. Everything in that movie is said in general sense – it does not say how to solve all of the problems you get when actually developing a game.

Like: the guy says that you shouldn’t surprise a player with something that he can’t predict. But you are a designer – you are never surprised by anything you just did. How should you know when the player is going to be surprised? How should you know when some mechanic are clear and when they are clear only for you?

That guy in the movie makes it all sound so simple. Just follow the rules and your game is going to be awesome. But it’s not so simple! Because there are hundreds of problems with executing his master plan.

HiddenNick.7206:

It’s easier said then done… Trust me.

Don’t trust him. Sensible design is just as easy or as hard to implement as the nonsensical one.

HiddenNick.7206:

That guy in the movie makes it all sound so simple. Just follow the rules and your game is going to be awesome. But it’s not so simple!

“That guy in the movie” is a professional gaming consultant who’s job is advising developers the same as they do in the video. Come on, who doesn’t watch Extra Credits these days?

yeah the guy ‘’James Portnow’’ is a professional games consultant, who has worked on everything from farmville to Call of duty. His opinions and knowledge are not to be sniffed at as something trivial

ya I watched a bunch of video from that site.

It make total sense. Untill I realize if that guy is so good maybe he should be game desginer instead of some blog writer.

laokoko.7403:

ya I watched a bunch of video from that site.

It make total sense. Untill I realize if that guy is so good maybe he should be game desginer instead of some blog writer.

Except the guy who actually writes the show was a game designer. He’s now a consultant for game studios.

TheDaiBish.9735:

laokoko.7403:

ya I watched a bunch of video from that site.

It make total sense. Untill I realize if that guy is so good maybe he should be game desginer instead of some blog writer.

Except the guy who actually writes the show was a game designer. He’s now a consultant for game studios.

So which mmorpg game did he consult on. I’d like to complain how bad that mmorpg is.

People just like to whine and complain. If you make a post on mmorpg.com, majority will tell you how instant is bad and mmorpg should be more punishing by making you grind hours everytime you die like everquest.

And I actually remember the developer says something alone the line of making queen’s gauntlet more of a world on twitch(sandbox people thing) that is why it is instant.

And good lord, I actually like where my action have a consequence. If you dont’ know to dodge or move out of the way when a big hammer is smashing your face. You probably deserve to be 1 shoted.

laokoko.7403:

TheDaiBish.9735:

laokoko.7403:

ya I watched a bunch of video from that site.

It make total sense. Untill I realize if that guy is so good maybe he should be game desginer instead of some blog writer.

Except the guy who actually writes the show was a game designer. He’s now a consultant for game studios.

So which mmorpg game did he consult on. I’d like to complain how bad that mmorpg is.

People just like to whine and complain. If you make a post on mmorpg.com, majority will tell you how instant is bad and mmorpg should be more punishing by making you grind hours everytime you die like everquest.

And I actually remember the developer says something alone the line of making queen’s gauntlet more of a world(sandbox people thing) that is why it is instant.

Not entirely sure what your post has to do with what I said, to be honest. Unless you’re talking about the show whining. Not to mention MMORPG isn’t the only gaming genre. However, as far as I know, he was consulted for CoD and Farmville for the narrative aspects.

IMO, what EC does is educating. The Average Joe that watches the show probably doesn’t attend a Game Design course, and yet the series is useful for those who want to break into the games industry (whether as an indie developer or someone looking to pursue a career).

TheDaiBish.9735:

Not entirely sure what your post has to do with what I said, to be honest. Unless you’re talking about the show whining. Not to mention MMORPG isn’t the only gaming genre. However, as far as I know, he was consulted for CoD and Farmville for the narrative aspects.

If the topic isn’t about mmorpg maybe the post and video is irrelevant.

There really is nothing wrong with what Anet is doing. Tribuline mode is too hard… then why are you doing tribuline mode. Let the people enjoy it play it. You dont’ have to do it. Do infantile mode and move on.

The only problem with queen’s gauntlet is there is no infantile mode. Because apparently there are many people like liadri and tribuline mode. You can listen to a bunch of people complaining. At the same time many people are actually praising it.

laokoko.7403:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Not entirely sure what your post has to do with what I said, to be honest. Unless you’re talking about the show whining. Not to mention MMORPG isn’t the only gaming genre. However, as far as I know, he was consulted for CoD and Farmville for the narrative aspects.

If the topic isn’t about mmorpg maybe the post and video is irrelevant.

There really is nothing wrong with what Anet is doing. Tribuline mode is too hard… then why are you doing tribuline mode. Let the people enjoy it play it. You dont’ have to do it. Do infantile mode and move on.

The only problem with queen’s gauntlet is there is no infantile mode. Because apparently there are many people like liadri and tribuline mode. You can listen to a bunch of people complaining. At the same time many people are actually praising it.

MMO’s are games though. My response was to your question as to what MMO’s he has consulted on.

The series is about game design. That particular episode was outlining their views on the difference between ‘punishing’ and ‘challenging’. That makes it relevant.

And yes, the different modes in SAB is good since different people have different levels as to what they find challenging. However, resources and all that play a part in how much they can cater to these different levels. SAB was one thing. Queen’s Jubilee had multiple parts to it.

^ So do you think that video should be used to justify what the OP is saying?

The new twilight arbor is probably the best dungeon to date by Anet. What exactly does that dungeon being too hard have anything to do with being too punishing.

I fail to see how it is even punishing. 3 silver per death is too punishing? 20 second WP run is too punishing?

Not to mention if it is too hard, you don’t have to run it. There are easy dungeon out there.

Apparently people think a 3 hour dungeon which can be finished by pug in 1 try is too punishing.

In fact that video should justify that Anet did something right. Difficult content without being punishing.

HiddenNick.7206:

How should you know when the player is going to be surprised? How should you know when some mechanic are clear and when they are clear only for you?

Well, you could have open and frequent dialogues in the community like Gazillion does?

I feel like they work in a bubble and don’t really care about what we think. From the very small to the very tall.

laokoko.7403:

^ So do you think that video should be used to justify what the OP is saying?

The new twilight arbor is probably the best dungeon to date by Anet. What exactly does that dungeon being too hard have anything to do with being too punishing.

I fail to see how it is even punishing. 3 silver per death is too punishing? 20 second WP run is too punishing?

It isn’t the punishment for failing. It’s the punishment of the content itself.

For example, one shot mechanics in themselves aren’t necessarily punishing. The challenge is 1) recognising them and 2) ensuring you have enough resource to avoid it.

However, when there’s tonnes of particle effects flying around, it is punishing, since you can’t necessarily see the windup.

That’s the difference between challenging and punishing. Challenging you can do something about. Punishing you can’t.

I haven’t experienced the new dungeon yet, so I can’t really comment on the specifics in it. Most of my comments haven’t even been to do with the content. Example, my first reply was to do with you questioning why isn’t he a games designer, and my second was to do with what he’s consulted.

Anet loves doing punishing game mechanisms. Look at all their one hit ko mechanisms. If I remember right, one of the designers basically said they felt they were above this rule and they intended for players learn through death.

Lafiel.9372:

If I remember right, one of the designers basically said they felt they were above this rule and they intended for players learn through death.

Learning through death =/= punishing content.

It’s when the player can’t do anything about the mechanic (whether it’s down to being unavoidable or untelegraphed) is when it makes it punishing.

Challenging content makes you think ‘what can I do different?’ when you die.

TheDaiBish.9735:

However, when there’s tonnes of particle effects flying around, it is punishing, since you can’t necessarily see the windup.

I totally agree. Anet should add in a particle filter. So I don’t need to watch 4 person in twilight wacking a boss the height of an asura that I can’t see anything.

The new dungeon isn’t too hard to be honest. The boss fight is quite comparable to those in astherblade retreat. I think my group took maybe 7-8 try on the 2 boss.

Stopped it at 0:35 because they said something that I think Anet has been missing all along. “First, let’s look at the history” patch after patch seems to be missing this very essential system of checking the development history of major mmos. In every other industry every corporation checks what other corporations are doing, their policies their procedures and how they are viewed by the public and then they incorporate those procedures and policies into their design of their products. That doesn’t happen in this title. It’s like not only have they thrown out the book on what features should be standard in every mmo but they don’t even go back and check what standards of operations have completely destroyed entire games in the past. A great example of this is using DR on loot/coins/rewards in the game as a means to control their economy while simultaneously blaming using DR on the population of the game because of bots. If you’re an old gamer like me who’s been around for a time, you too would remember how developers tried this in the past and even shut down whole companies because back then fewer people would just stay and throw money for junk.

I’m not sure what DR is left in the game. It is mostly time gated 1 time daily event.

and they actually removed DR. you see the farmer train in frostgauge.

laokoko.7403:

I’m not sure what DR is left in the game. It is mostly time gated 1 time daily event.

and they actually removed DR. you see the farmer train in frostgauge.

DR used to have no effects on mats, and it certainly doesn’t affect champ boxes.
Play a guardian with a staff during an invasion and you will see DR plain and clear; where every 15th kill awards a grey item and all the events you complete give 7xp and 3 karma.

DR is still as strict as ever even with way fewer bots in the game.

laokoko.7403:

^ So do you think that video should be used to justify what the OP is saying?

The new twilight arbor is probably the best dungeon to date by Anet. What exactly does that dungeon being too hard have anything to do with being too punishing.

If you watch the video, and see the basic points that distinguish difficult content from punishing content:

1) consistency of rules; Anet has a huge problem with this one and Twilight Arbor is no exception. For example, one of the bosses does a spinning blade attack, throught the game many monsters and players have spinning blade attack like this, but his spinning blade attack unlike all others has knockback. This obviously was decided to be necessary because without knockback his spinning blade attack is too easy to deal with, so instead of doing anything interesting/creative with the mechanics they add a knockback to this guy’s spinning blade attack, it’s arbitrary and unpredictable. This is almost exactly identical to the example described in the video of a “rage quite moment”. Just one example from this dungeon. If you look at other recent content updates such as Tequatl: cannot be crit, lol. Mechanics of new content and bosses seem are very arbitrary and don’t have an in-world consistency.

Another example of this that happened to my group, but I don’t see comments from others so I thought this was normal and maybe it was some weird abberation: When we got the final boss in Twilight Invasion down to ~1% health left, he did that three ground pound attack, but instead of having normal radius and damage it suddenly covered the whole map and instantly killed all five of us even though we were spread all over the map and had all survived this attack easily many times. Same animation, same attack by all appearances… it’s an unexpected breaking of the rules and caused most of the party to rage quit even though we had no problem working our way through the dungeon up until then and weren’t that bothered about it. Since I haven’t read of any others experiencing this mechanic, I am now wondering if it was some anomaly or bug, but anyways….

Quote from the video: “The harder your game is, the less you can mysteriously change your rules on the fly.” This also applies to the content, the harder the dungeon is the less content should just be arbitrary, unintuitive game mechanics that create an artificial and not fun kind of difficulty. This is why many people have complained about cheap and gimmicky game mechanics in recent updates (such as gauntlets in Queen Jubilee).

2) Giving the player enough tools to work with, allow the player outlets to solve problems in varied and creative ways; Does Twilight Invasion do this, or are all the bosses one trick ponies with gimmick mechanics like giant AOE knockback wave unless you kite enemy npc into boss and kill it on top of him (one of the most gimmicky game mechancs I have ever seen, makes a lot of sense, lol. at least Tequatl scales you take down with guns that have been special designed by the in-game characters for fighting Tequatl, but apparently anet devs love scales now so they just make up any ridiculous, arbitrary game mechanic having to do with raising and lowering scales and super attacks. Oh, but that does bring me to another point about recent content and breaking the rules: tequatl, scales, you can stand there and wail on him forever but for some reason he is mysteriously invincible when bone wall is up, this makes no sense at all from an in-world perspective, a proper game design would make it so he does something that is a knockback and bone wall blocks you from damaging him, not you stand on top of Tequatl whaling on him but he is magically invincible because bone wall raised in front of him even though you are behind bone wall; and as far as Tequatl, how about giving players tools to work with to solve problems in different and creative ways…. I only have seen one strategy for the fight so far that any server has used to beat him??? On to point 3 from the video….

3) Telegraphing: players needs to have the ability to make informed decisions about the game, even if they are split second ones, otherwise they aren’t really making a choice just stuck with whatever random crap they happen to stumble into and learning how to win through mindless trial and error; —> Twilight Invasion almost all the difficult boss mechanics are just arbitrary, unpredictable things that don’t have much rhyme or reason and you have to figure out through trial and error, this is the epitome of uninformed choice. Take final boss scales for example, there is no hint about this and his magic super move, it’s something you have to figure out through trial and error or reading a game guide, that’s all.

(continued)

From the video:

“Your goal as a designer is to get the player so invested, so engaged that they want to beat this game even though it’s difficult. You don’t want to simply set something before them that causes them to walk away because they hit a challenge which is too tough, too early.”

Look with Twilight Invasion content and how many people rage quit from that dungeon. If it was fun, people wouldn’t rage quit, because it’s fun. They might have to take a break, but they would want to come back later. Playing the game should be fun in and of itself, not only winning at it. Punishing content is only fun when you win, difficult+fun content is fun even if you lose.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Lafiel.9372:

If I remember right, one of the designers basically said they felt they were above this rule and they intended for players learn through death.

Learning through death =/= punishing content.

It’s when the player can’t do anything about the mechanic (whether it’s down to being unavoidable or untelegraphed) is when it makes it punishing.

Challenging content makes you think ‘what can I do different?’ when you die.

Learning through death IS punishing because you have no idea that that kills you until you’re hit by it. A game which is designed properly should be able to teach you the mechanics without having you to learn through dying.

I suggest you watch extracredits video again lol.

Lafiel.9372:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Lafiel.9372:

If I remember right, one of the designers basically said they felt they were above this rule and they intended for players learn through death.

Learning through death =/= punishing content.

It’s when the player can’t do anything about the mechanic (whether it’s down to being unavoidable or untelegraphed) is when it makes it punishing.

Challenging content makes you think ‘what can I do different?’ when you die.

Learning through death IS punishing because you have no idea that that kills you until you’re hit by it. A game which is designed properly should be able to teach you the mechanics without having you to learn through dying.

I suggest you watch extracredits video again lol.

Learning through death isn’t necessarily punishing content.

If you die, the learning process after doesn’t necessarily mean the content is punishing.

It’s when you absolutely have to die in order to memorise and learn the fight because there’s no indication of what’s coming is when learning through death is punishing.

However, if you die through a mistake on your part and the mechanic was made clear, then you can learn what mistake you made, or you can think of a different approach. This is when learning through death isn’t punishing.

For example:

• The pull / spin on Kholer. You don’t necessarily have to die in order to learn that mechanic, since there’s a tell that shows something big is coming (the glowy sword). However, if you do die to that mechanic, you can re-examine what you need to do next (keep some Endurance in reserve, bring some stability, pop some form of projectile reflection ect) since you know what killed you (you got pulled in). All in all, with Kholer, I’d say the particle effects flying around make the fight more punishing than it really is, since it tends to mask the tell.

just logged in to add something since this is the main reason i don’t play the game anymore.

i believe that a challenging content is a content that you can defeat despite how hard it is even if it is the first time you do it (without dulfy or any other player spoiling the fight or the puzzle). you can defeat it because while you play you are able to figure out what to do in order to beat it. not because you died and the next time you memorize when to do something so you don’t die again.

for example all the bosses in the game dante’s inferno (i don’t know if they can be considered challenging) are well done since you easily understand what to do in order to beat them and they give you margin for some error.

gw2 doesn’t give you nothing and when you make a mistake you die and 1 person dieing in certain content may as well mean a wipe.

I think this was a really interesting video with a lot of interesting pointers.

Tequatl might be a good encounter to look at with those pointers in mind as he belongs to some of the more challenging content recently implemented.

The turrets as an example: Each skill has a clear explanation as to what it actually does.
When fighting the dragon, the npc will inform you to look out for the waves!
This is good and informative. You know what is coming. You know what to expect.

In the video, it was also mentioned as a plus if you could get right back in and continue if you failed. Tequatl does not live up to that. If you fail, you have to wait a long time before you can try again.

Another problem with the long wait is if you leave to do something else in the meantime, you cannot be certain to get into the same main server or overflow. Having to wait around, I find punishing.

Then there is the reward system. I know of a commander that has killed him around 50 times on different characters. He does the invites, he finds an overflow, he explains the fight to everyone else. So far, he has only received green items
Other people go in, see the fight for the first or second time and are rewarded with the mini pet or the ascended armor box. I personally think that is a punishing system as well. You are not rewarded by your effort or you commitment to keeping this encounter alive, you are rewarded by random chance.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Lafiel.9372:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Lafiel.9372:

If I remember right, one of the designers basically said they felt they were above this rule and they intended for players learn through death.

Learning through death =/= punishing content.

It’s when the player can’t do anything about the mechanic (whether it’s down to being unavoidable or untelegraphed) is when it makes it punishing.

Challenging content makes you think ‘what can I do different?’ when you die.

Learning through death IS punishing because you have no idea that that kills you until you’re hit by it. A game which is designed properly should be able to teach you the mechanics without having you to learn through dying.

I suggest you watch extracredits video again lol.

Learning through death isn’t necessarily punishing content.

If you die, the learning process after doesn’t necessarily mean the content is punishing.

It’s when you absolutely have to die in order to memorise and learn the fight because there’s no indication of what’s coming is when learning through death is punishing.

However, if you die through a mistake on your part and the mechanic was made clear, then you can learn what mistake you made, or you can think of a different approach. This is when learning through death isn’t punishing.

For example:

• The pull / spin on Kholer. You don’t necessarily have to die in order to learn that mechanic, since there’s a tell that shows something big is coming (the glowy sword). However, if you do die to that mechanic, you can re-examine what you need to do next (keep some Endurance in reserve, bring some stability, pop some form of projectile reflection ect) since you know what killed you (you got pulled in). All in all, with Kholer, I’d say the particle effects flying around make the fight more punishing than it really is, since it tends to mask the tell.

I am referring to one hit ko mechanics.
I thought learning through death was a stand alone enough statement but you guys are misinterpreting it. If I meant learning through death as any time you die then that would just be silly. i’m talking about things that kill you in one hit and you have no idea until it happens. There is a lot of examples of that during the gauntlet.

Just to further explain. One hit ko mechanics isn’t 100 % wrong but the problem is you hae to at least give the chance to educate the player that this beam will KILL you in one hit if you get hit.

For example, let’s say i go in a boss, the first and there is a beaminig light you have the avoid. The first time it hits you it may do half your hp damage, then a npc will explain, oh no, they upped the power on that beam! be sure to avoid it or it’ll be instant death!".

That way players are now informed of the mechanic and will dodge them and know they will die if they touch it.

Another example,

There is bee mobs that will cast a spell that will one hit you if you don’t kill them quickly. Before you engage them in a boss fight, you were shown several of these bees a long with trash mobs. So now I go into a boss fight and he summons these, I now know that I have to kill them first or they will one shot me.

Now let me give examples of how anet does things above.

Boss starts off with a giant beam of light. Players, being first timers, were not sure if this beam of light protects us or kill us. This light is blue (if it was red then it MAY give an indication that it’s dangerous) so the players decide to hop on it and then their party wipes. Thank you anet! by wiping us during this fight, you have taught us a valuable game mechanic!

same situation, giant bee boss summons little bees in the fight. Party members have never encountered these mobs outside. There is only two and they do not do much damage so most of the players stay focus on the boss while aoeing the bees here and there. Suddenly, little bees use their special move and bam, 2 players are dead. the 3 players have trouble now fighting the boss, party eventually wipes. Thank you again anet! we have once again learned a valuable game mechanic through dying!

See what i’m saying? It’s all about the delivery of the mechanics to be honest and Anet sucks at delivering a lot of things, story, content, bug fixes or game mechanics.

Ive seen one or two of this guy’s videos before. He is always dead on..hit the nail on the head. He looks at it all objectively.

And I agree with the things he says.